Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / PBL That Works: Keeping Projects Real, Rigorous, and Student-Centered with Jenny Pieratt

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PBL That Works: Keeping Projects Real, Rigorous, and Student-Centered with Jenny Pieratt · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

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Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to edtech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top edtech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. Welcome to the Integrate
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This EdTech podcast. I'm Jeremy Mikla joined
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by co -host David Berner and our special guest
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here today. We're really excited to welcome Dr.
0:49
Jennifer Peratt and we're really happy to have
0:52
you on the show. Jenny is Obviously, if you've
0:58
followed any of her work, she is a PBL expert.
1:02
And I know we're going to dive into that, but
1:04
she's also an author, curriculum designer, and
1:07
founder of her own company, Crafted Curriculum.
1:11
Jenny, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for
1:13
having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. Jenny,
1:16
one thing that we like to do with our guests
1:17
is kind of have them give a little bit of their
1:19
backstory. Tell us, you know, how did you get
1:22
to the point where you're at today? Yeah, so
1:26
I started out doing what I swore I would never
1:28
do, which is becoming a teacher like my mom.
1:32
And just kind of naturally taught in a way that
1:35
felt different than the other classes where I
1:37
was teaching. And one day a student came up to
1:40
me and said, hey, I just visited this place,
1:42
High Tech High, and they do project -based learning.
1:44
Do you know that's what you're doing? And me
1:47
being the 22 -year -old I was said no. No, I
1:51
don't, but I must learn more. And so I went to
1:54
and toward the high tech high campuses when they
1:56
were first up and running and ended up being
1:59
a founding staff member at one of their schools.
2:01
So that's kind of where my PBL roots really come
2:03
from is high tech high. Loved my work there.
2:07
Got to see the school grow so much and really.
2:10
build a PBL culture. I mean, it's an incredible
2:13
place. I don't know if you've had the opportunity
2:14
to visit. So I did that work for a while. I was
2:18
in the classroom for about 10 years. And then
2:20
I took a position for New Tech Network, where
2:23
I had the chance to travel the country and support
2:26
schools in project -based learning implementation.
2:29
So I've kind of seen it in every model there
2:31
is, every shape and size. And then went out on
2:35
my own in 2016. So I've been doing the work of
2:39
CraftEd. since then took a little bit of a break
2:41
thanks to COVID and also relocating. So I'm now
2:45
in the Charlotte area having been born and raised
2:47
in San Diego and just looking to continue that
2:50
work here in my new community. Yeah so I would
2:54
imagine you know like with as you said a parent
2:57
who's an educator you kind of get a little bit
3:01
of someone looking over your shoulder to help
3:03
and guide you along the way but Did your mom
3:06
help mentor you through your early years or did
3:10
you have, when you got to high tech high, you
3:12
found some people that could really help push
3:16
and guide you? I mean both. I still look back
3:20
and I'm like, I can't believe that principal
3:21
hired a 22 year old. I took over a classroom
3:25
of 35 sixth graders and I had no idea what I
3:28
was doing. And so my mom helped me out a lot
3:32
those first couple years. And that was in a private
3:34
school, so very different setting than going
3:37
over to Hi Tech High. I was so lucky at Hi Tech
3:39
High to have some incredible, I mean, we call
3:42
like, we're calling them like the Yoda of PBL
3:45
that really mentored me through the process.
3:48
And I just, I'm so blessed the people that I
3:52
got to work with between like Ron Berger to Rick
3:55
Lear to, I mean, like the godfathers of PBL.
3:59
So I did have a lot of really wonderful mentors
4:02
and really wonderful leaders who were able to
4:05
develop me as a teacher and a leader myself.
4:09
So Jenny, when was it that you were so along
4:12
this journey, when was it that you were first
4:14
like really starting to dig into PBL and try
4:19
it for yourself? So this is going to sound crazy,
4:22
but I swear it's. just what I always did. I just
4:26
didn't know that that's what I was doing. Like
4:28
in my mind, as a 22 year old, I was like, gosh,
4:30
I have these sixth graders and I have to teach
4:32
them about ancient civilization, which I know
4:34
they don't really care about. How can I make
4:36
this really exciting for them? And so that was
4:39
kind of the angle that I took at the time I also
4:41
had to teach religion. Same thing. Like, how
4:43
do I make this relevant to, you know, a 10, 11,
4:46
12 year old? So I just kind of always entered
4:49
into things of how do I make this relevant? How
4:52
do I make this engaging? And so the outcome always
4:55
ended up being some form of a project, probably
4:57
more like project oriented versus project based
5:00
learning. Nevertheless, I just kind of got on
5:03
that track right away. And that was just what
5:05
I always did. And then you had the book that
5:09
you made. So keep it real with PBL. What is it
5:14
that when you say keep it real, what do you mean
5:16
by keep it real? Well, it's kind of a play on
5:19
a few different ideas. So one is. Um, on a personal
5:24
level, I'm just a really authentic person. So
5:27
I have a terrible poker face. So whatever, whatever
5:29
you see is what you're going to get. Um, so it's
5:32
a very raw, honest approach to project based
5:35
learning. Um, also really grounded in the real
5:39
world. So for me, when I'm designing a project,
5:42
you know, the first thing we ask is what are
5:43
the standards we need to teach? And then how
5:45
do we create some real world context that supports
5:48
those standards? So that to me is always the
5:51
most important piece. How do we bring in the
5:53
real world? How do we get students out into the
5:55
real world? How do we make this relate to the
5:57
real world? So it's a little bit of play on that.
6:00
And then, of course, just a little bit of play
6:02
from Jenny from the block. And like one of the
6:07
things that, you know, if there's a lot of teachers
6:10
do projects. So what would you say the difference
6:13
between like just doing a project versus doing
6:17
project based learning would be? Yeah. Then this
6:22
is something I see a lot in schools is kind of
6:25
this need for calibration around what project
6:27
based learning is. And I'm, I think a lot of
6:29
it is just because it's evolved. Like if you
6:31
look back and I'm going to kind of like PBL nerd
6:33
out here for a second, but like back to like
6:35
the eighties and nineties project oriented learning
6:38
as we know it now was called project based learning.
6:42
So if you have a teacher that's been around for
6:44
a little bit of time. to them, they're like,
6:47
well, we're speaking the same language. But I
6:48
think a little bit of our understanding shifted
6:50
around project based learning to really include
6:53
learning, all the learning that needs to happen
6:56
in the context of the project. So that can't
7:01
always happen. And most places aren't being asked
7:03
to do wall to wall PVL. So some skills are still
7:06
happening alongside the project. But I think
7:08
for me, the big differentiator is students are
7:12
learning what they need to learn because they
7:14
need to answer the driving question for the project.
7:16
So there's no, why are we learning this? Why
7:18
are we doing this? It is evident and it's right
7:22
out explicitly as a no need to know for the project.
7:25
It's really taking what they would need to learn
7:28
and just embedding it in the life of the project
7:32
rather than outside of it. So is it safe to say,
7:37
you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but is
7:39
it like, I think maybe the reason that projects
7:44
come about inside of assignments or you have
7:47
a lesson plan where the kids are gonna make a
7:51
poster or they're gonna do a presentation or
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things like that. Do you think that teachers
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want to have those things embedded but maybe
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there's a lack of planning that PBL provides
8:04
more of that planning aspect or I guess call
8:08
it intentionality. Whereas if we see like a poster
8:13
and say a presentation, it's not that the teacher
8:18
is trying to unintentionally design. They want
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to include those things, but there's just not
8:22
as much of a structure for it. Is that correct
8:24
or is it my offer? No, you initially said intentionality
8:28
and I immediately thought structure, but then
8:30
you said structure. So yeah, to me, project based
8:33
learning, it forces you to step back. and go
8:39
like really big picture, like why do they need
8:42
to learn this? Which enduring understanding for
8:44
backwards design people. And then to build from
8:48
there. And I feel like when you're not doing
8:51
project -based learning, you don't have that
8:54
chance to step back and to look at the why behind
8:57
why you're teaching, why they're learning X,
9:00
Y, or Z. And so I think that intentionality is
9:05
structured into the design. Whereas I think day
9:10
in and day out, you're just kind of like reacting
9:12
to what has to happen that day, to what students
9:16
need that moment. Whereas project -based learning
9:19
really allows you to zoom out and think about
9:22
the bigger picture and then backwards plan from
9:24
there. When designing for PBL with that sort
9:31
of lens in mind and from the big picture or the
9:35
backwards design, that's going to look different,
9:38
I think, for elementary teachers versus secondary
9:41
or high school teachers. So, you know, considering
9:45
those two things, you know, how should PBL look
9:48
for, say, like primary grade level and what will
9:51
it look like for, say, an upper level junior
9:54
senior? Yeah, very different. Even within elementary,
9:58
there's a pretty big difference between say kindergarten
10:01
to fourth grade. Those two projects and project
10:05
based learning are going to look very different.
10:07
One thing I've noticed, I spend a lot of time
10:09
working with kindergarten teachers. And I will
10:13
say it is the most challenging. The younger they
10:15
are, the more challenging it is. to design. And
10:18
so I always say every high school teacher should
10:21
have to teach an elementary project because you
10:24
really earn your stripes and you really get those
10:26
systems and structures down. But for the lower
10:29
elementary, it is really difficult, if not impossible,
10:33
I would say, to have everything happen in the
10:36
context of the project. For the younger grades,
10:38
I always recommend like start smaller. So let's
10:42
not do something that's going to last a semester.
10:44
Like, hey, let's just try something for like
10:45
a week or two. because they're minis and their
10:48
attention span can't go on for that long and
10:51
endure through a project as long as, say, a middle
10:54
schooler could for a couple of weeks. So we tend
10:59
to kind of do more of a bite size experience,
11:01
what I call PBL light. In the lower grades and
11:05
not every content area is going to fully integrate
11:10
and be an interdisciplinary project. So because
11:12
they are on the hook for so many different standards,
11:15
it's hard to make everything fit and have it
11:18
be a meaningful fit. And then what about like
11:23
a high school student? How could they? Could
11:26
a teacher of high school students kind of implemented
11:29
at a different level that would meet the rigors?
11:32
of those students and yet I'm kind of thinking
11:35
at it through the lens here too, like David and
11:37
I were both social studies teachers, you know,
11:40
how can we make it interdisciplinary and is it
11:43
a matter of just finding other teachers to work
11:46
with you or can you on your own if you don't
11:49
have that still incorporate, you know, things
11:52
maybe from English language arts or science or
11:56
math even into say a social studies classroom?
12:00
Yeah, so I feel like you asked me a couple of
12:02
questions. So take it any direction you want
12:06
to. When I think is, you know, the most important
12:10
thing for secondary teachers is to find people
12:12
that will play along with them. So I was really
12:15
fortunate when I first started designing projects
12:17
at High Tech High. My class was already embedded
12:21
history in English, so I taught humanities. So
12:23
that forced. that integration right out the gate.
12:27
But then I was also paired with a math and science
12:29
teacher, and we shared students. So there was
12:32
this integration that was expected. I will point
12:35
out that the most important thing that allowed
12:37
that full integration to happen was we had a
12:40
common planning time every day. But aside from
12:44
that, I think the expectation was you're going
12:46
to collaborate. And you're going to you're going
12:49
to design something together and you're going
12:50
to share students. And so that kind of like expected
12:53
culture of collaboration, I think, really enabled
12:56
that to happen. And it was a really easy place
12:59
to find friends outside of there that wanted
13:01
to play along to. So, you know, an art teacher
13:04
would say, hey, I have this really cool idea.
13:05
Do you want to do this? And we'd say, yeah, let's
13:07
figure it out. That's not always the case in
13:10
other settings where I support teachers. Some
13:14
places the culture just quite isn't, it's not
13:16
there yet. Sometimes teachers are pretty in their
13:20
lane or in their department and just not comfortable
13:23
branching out. And in those places, I still say,
13:27
find your friends. So if there is someone that
13:30
you cross paths with in the English department
13:33
that's like, hey, we should do this together.
13:36
Like, take it and run. Like, make that your first
13:39
connection and your first chance to build something
13:41
kind of be that maverick for the staff to show
13:44
them that it's possible. I feel like I've seen
13:47
teachers do that in large, comprehensive settings,
13:51
but it kind of has to come from them. So when
13:54
a principal says, we want everyone to do integrated
13:57
projects, but there will be no planning time
14:00
for this and no support. Like, it's just... It's
14:04
not really a fair ask and yet it's asked a lot.
14:08
So I think in those settings, you just kind of
14:10
have to find the people that are willing to put
14:12
in a little bit extra because it does require
14:14
extra. Right, and I think I saw some of that
14:17
when I was in the classroom. I was teaching a
14:20
12th grade. political science class and finding,
14:25
you know, students would have to investigate
14:28
civil liberty and tie it to the Bill of Rights
14:31
and Supreme Court case studies and stuff to,
14:34
you know, kind of tie everything together and
14:36
show how that liberty had been supported or denied
14:39
even by the courts. The teacher who was in a
14:44
room next to me was an English language arts
14:46
teacher, had many of the same students through
14:49
her classes, and she's like, hey, she actually
14:52
came to me and says, I know you're doing this
14:54
assignment. I know you're doing this this project.
14:57
Can I use this as an opportunity to show students
15:02
how to do proper citations and not even just,
15:06
you know, creating a work cited bibliography
15:08
page, but also, you know. inserting quotes and
15:13
giving credit to the people and the resource
15:15
that you took it from and the in -tech citations
15:18
that go along with it. And then that's how it
15:21
started. And then the following year when we
15:24
did the same assignment, she's like, hey, can
15:27
we also work on peer review? And so all of those
15:32
students then had to partner up and work on giving.
15:35
peers feedback. Is that kind of like the way
15:38
that you can approach or maybe a teacher who
15:42
feels a little bit siloed but can find that one
15:45
other teacher and then they can build and grow
15:48
in how they can, you know, implement PBL in a
15:51
more intentional and structured scale? Yeah,
15:53
I mean, I was just thinking how lucky you were
15:55
that somebody came to you. Like, that's like
15:58
a dream come true for someone like me. Like,
16:00
yes, we can collaborate. But I also was thinking
16:04
as you were talking about the ways in which they
16:06
supported your classroom in ELA was that it was
16:11
creating that why. So students. now aren't just
16:15
learning how to do citations for the sake of
16:17
learning how to do citations. They're learning
16:19
how to do citations because the project that
16:21
you were asking them in social studies required
16:23
that to be a part of it. That's that true interdisciplinary
16:27
piece while they're having to do the learning,
16:30
engage in the learning, the process to be able
16:32
to complete whatever the final product was that
16:34
you were asking them to do. I had a gift of being
16:39
back in the classroom last semester for a little
16:41
bit. I honestly just ended up collaborating with
16:45
other people just through conversation, like
16:47
hanging out and passing. They'd say like, oh
16:49
yeah, we're gonna do this cookie cutting project
16:52
in my 3D printing class. And I was like, what?
16:54
What do you mean? What does that look like? And
16:56
so then they would, I mean, it's everyone's passion.
16:58
So everyone's happy to talk about it. And so
17:01
the teacher ended up saying, well, we're gonna
17:02
do this and that. I'm teaching entrepreneurship.
17:06
Like there are million billion dollar cookie
17:09
companies. Like what if we did something together
17:12
around entrepreneurship and design and like a
17:15
business model and the cookie cut. I mean it
17:18
turned into like this whole thing and it was
17:22
honestly just from like a passing conversation
17:23
in the hallway. I'm going to go back here to
17:28
an earlier thing that you had mentioned too about
17:30
real world real world learning and To me, when
17:36
I think about that, to me, I think like a student
17:39
is probably going to look to their local area
17:41
first to try to solve problems either in their
17:44
buildings, in their schools, or in their communities.
17:47
How important is it to have that kind of local
17:50
connection when students and teachers are planning
17:54
for PBL activities and learning experiences?
18:00
It's ideal. It's not necessary, but it is ideal.
18:05
And I will say that I've seen this look a lot
18:09
of different ways supporting teachers with this
18:11
and a lot of different settings because it is
18:14
a heavy lift. So, you know, I've worked in a
18:17
school where we had a community connections coordinator
18:20
that was responsible for managing a database
18:22
that helped teachers with placing experts, community
18:26
connections to the project or whatever it was
18:29
they were working on their classroom. I know
18:32
for me, when I went back to the classroom this
18:34
last semester, I was reminded how big of an ask
18:41
that was for teachers to make those connections.
18:44
Because when you're working during the school
18:46
day, you don't have time to make phone calls.
18:48
You don't have time to get coffee with people
18:50
to network. I mean, you're lucky if you can run
18:52
to the restroom and grab a lunch and time, right?
18:55
So I ended up leaning really heavily on AI. to
18:59
do a lot of the work that I had been project
19:01
planning so that it freed me up for that time
19:04
to go start doing the coffee meetings to going
19:07
to community events. And that to me was a huge
19:10
shift in project based learning because I had
19:14
better connections with the community. But it
19:16
was only because I had figured out kind of like
19:18
this new little niche with AI to help me along
19:22
because it's important, but it's a just a big
19:26
ask of teachers to do that. Yeah, and I think,
19:30
you know, David and I both come from different
19:33
parts of Minnesota, but we're really surrounded
19:36
by a lot of rural school districts. Are there
19:40
any good project based learning ideas that would
19:44
work really, really well in smaller rural setting
19:47
schools? Yeah, I mean, like I said, I've seen
19:50
it done in every. every setting. And depending
19:54
on the age, and this isn't always true, but in
19:57
general, this is true. I encourage teachers,
20:00
the older they are, the broader you can go. The
20:03
younger they are, the more narrow you want to
20:05
go, just because their kind of proximity of development
20:10
and understanding is smaller the younger they
20:12
are. So sometimes that looks like doing something
20:15
at the classroom level. Sometimes it looks like
20:18
the grade level, the school level. So that can
20:21
be in any setting, rural, urban, right? I think
20:25
extending outside of that to more global issues,
20:29
I guess, it is manageable in an urban or rural
20:35
setting. It's just a matter of if students are
20:37
developmentally kind of ready to take that big
20:40
jump and talk about. Transferring context because
20:43
that's really the difference is if we're learning
20:46
this about You know social issues in 1920 What
20:53
does that look like connecting it to today? So
20:55
it's that kind of transfer that you just are
20:58
looking for students to be developmentally ready
21:00
to do that or to support them with it So Jenny
21:05
is it you look at some of the projects that are
21:09
done in project -based learning? How do teachers
21:12
go about assessing something like that? Assessment
21:17
is probably one of the most important pieces
21:19
and also probably the least enjoyable for teachers,
21:24
it seems like. So for when I'm supporting schools
21:29
with project -based learning, Because it's backwards
21:32
design, we always start with what standards and
21:34
skills you're looking to assess in the final
21:36
product and then working back from there. How
21:39
would you scaffold and explicitly teach that
21:42
content and those skills within that kind of
21:46
moving through the cycle of assessment for learning
21:48
rather than assessment of learning? So asking
21:51
students to reflect on those skills and content,
21:54
provide them feedback and kind of moving through
21:57
that cycle. So. A quick answer to your question
22:02
would be I think designing rubrics in terms of
22:08
being valid tools that can be scaffolded and
22:12
formatively assessed would probably be my big
22:15
answer. That's difficult to do for someone who
22:19
doesn't have a PhD in assessment. And so it takes
22:23
a lot of time, too. And so that's been a big
22:26
piece also for me with AI is being able to design
22:30
rubrics that are a heck of a lot better than
22:31
I was doing before and think about using those
22:35
tools a little bit more often and in more dynamic
22:39
ways, I think, too, than I had in the past. Is
22:42
that the biggest difference? Like, you know,
22:45
one of the things that... I think happens a lot
22:48
is you have, there's like an expectation for
22:51
the student to turn in something at the end,
22:53
right? Like you have an assignment or even if
22:57
it is a project that they have to do, they're
22:59
gonna turn it in whatever they created at the
23:02
end and they're going to get graded on that final
23:06
product. But is PBL differentiated in the sense
23:10
that what you mentioned is like, it seems like
23:13
there's an ongoing assessment that occurs and
23:15
you're like, like you said, you're having the
23:17
student reflect on things like thinking about
23:21
why are we doing this or maybe why are you including
23:24
this piece in the project and things like that.
23:26
Can you speak to that a little bit, like some
23:29
of the differences that you find in regular ongoing
23:33
assessment versus like just here's my product
23:37
at the end? Yeah, and again, this is up for debate.
23:42
A lot of people don't always agree with me on
23:44
this, but there were definitely projects that
23:47
were very lightly weighted on the final product
23:50
because they were so heavily weighted on the
23:52
process to get there. I mean, I had already sat
23:55
down. I followed more of a workshop model in
23:57
my classrooms. I had already sat down with every
23:59
student 10 times, but before they got to their
24:02
final product, I almost didn't even need to see
24:04
it. It was like a one eye open. I would look
24:06
at it. Did they do what we last talked about?
24:09
Because for me, the heavy lift had already come
24:11
through the process. So One thing that I found
24:15
to kind of answer your question is, for the standards,
24:19
it's a little bit easier to give feedback. And
24:23
there are more valid tools that are often already
24:25
created for content. It was a little trickier
24:29
with what we're calling now the durable skills.
24:31
So if I wanted to give a student feedback on,
24:34
say, something like collaboration, That often
24:38
I would find didn't happen until the end well
24:40
It's too late for them to adjust their collaboration
24:42
skills in the context of that project like yes,
24:45
okay Yes, it's still a teachable moment, and
24:47
we hope that they think about it and apply it
24:49
to the next project But if I want to see some
24:51
real change I had to be very explicit about what
24:54
I mean by collaboration And then from there ask
24:58
them to yes reflect about it But then I have
25:00
to have the time to give them the feedback on
25:02
their collaboration and give them the chance
25:05
to try again So it's really being intentional
25:08
about building in time for all of that cycle.
25:12
And in a perfect world, you go through that cycle
25:14
one to two times within the project. So also,
25:21
depending on how many things you're trying to
25:23
assess, that can be tricky. So my mantra is always
25:26
less is more. Yeah, so I know and obviously like
25:31
all projects are gonna be different in some sense
25:34
I mean you're covering different content. You
25:36
have different students There's a lot of different
25:38
factors that change things But when you look
25:40
at like a PBL rubric that gets created Are there
25:43
are there common things that show up repeatedly
25:46
that you know, like when you're designing the
25:49
project? from a pbl lens you're like okay these
25:53
these are things that consistently show up that
25:56
teachers should be looking for especially like
25:58
if they're just getting started in this concept
26:00
and they really want to do project -based learning
26:03
when you design those rubrics are there consistent
26:05
things that show up um in terms of like skills
26:10
yeah things you might assess like things that
26:13
consistently show up collaboration I'm yet to
26:17
meet a teacher that's like, I slay collaboration.
26:21
My kids have got it down. Every teacher wants
26:24
to wring their hair out trying to figure out,
26:27
how do I teach them how to work better together?
26:31
And I think that challenge is probably only getting
26:33
more complicated the further we go down the line
26:35
with all the new modern technologies. So collaboration
26:40
is one I see across the board. Every teacher
26:42
will tell you that. Critical thinking, which
26:46
is kind of generic and can be a lot of other
26:50
phrases too, but this idea of being able to analyze
26:54
and make those connections, think deeply, that's
26:58
probably universal. One that I have seen that
27:01
has universal interests, but not universal implementation
27:05
would be agency. Every teacher again will tell
27:08
you, I want my kids to have a growth mindset.
27:12
I want them to own their learning. I want them
27:14
to be able to take feedback and apply it and
27:16
improve their work. That word agency is so loaded.
27:22
And so again, because we have to be very specific
27:25
about what it is we're assessing, we really need
27:29
to narrow in that definition. And I think that
27:32
kind of disconnect between this big word and
27:35
the smaller like definitions and how we provide
27:37
feedback on that is probably what's causing it
27:40
to be more of a pipe dream of bringing into projects.
27:45
But that's one that I've seen universally interesting
27:47
to everybody. OK, and then the other piece of
27:52
this, too. Well, we talked a bit about collaboration
27:55
and like collaboration is a piece that is difficult.
28:00
Is there, when students are going through the
28:03
process, so say they're collaborating together,
28:05
they're working on a project, how do you, inside
28:09
of a PBL project, how do you assess individual
28:15
learning throughout that as well? Yeah, and again,
28:19
this one, not everybody agrees with this. So
28:22
I don't do group grades, personally, and I strongly
28:27
encourage teachers to not give group grades.
28:31
I think assessing individually their knowledge
28:34
and thinking is really important. So that's where
28:37
the piece of being able to give them feedback
28:39
on their collaboration is important because actually
28:42
assessing a collaboration skill versus collaborative
28:45
understanding of something, it's much easier
28:48
to pull out how to give them feedback on the
28:51
skill versus how do I know who knows what in
28:53
that group. So for me, I've never personally
28:57
done group grades because I wanna keep every
28:59
kid on the hook. I wanna know what they know.
29:02
And so yes, they might come together and each
29:04
of them contributes and brings different ideas
29:06
and they create some final product together at
29:08
the end. But I have a very good feeling about
29:12
what they know and don't know individually before
29:15
they either enter that group or before it comes
29:16
time for the final product or exhibition. So
29:21
Jenny, one of the things that you started to
29:23
go down the rabbit hole, and I want to now dive
29:25
a little bit deeper into it, is the use of PBL
29:28
with AI. And you mentioned it through the process
29:32
of using it to help you draft a better rubric
29:35
to better assess those skills and the thinking
29:39
that takes place for each individual student.
29:41
But how do you feel AI has really changed the
29:44
conversation around project -based learning?
29:47
I don't know that it has yet. So I'm excited
29:50
to see where this goes. I think it's just starting
29:52
to surface. I think people have been trying to
29:55
make sense of AI. And in the past, prior to that,
29:59
there was making sense of PBL. And I don't know
30:01
that the two have been bridged quite yet. I think
30:06
no one's disagreeing that the connection makes
30:09
sense. It's more of like how we go about doing
30:11
that moving forward. I haven't personally really
30:16
dive too much into students using it in project
30:20
-based learning. My passion has really been how
30:23
teachers can use it to build projects and all
30:26
the tools within a project -based learning kind
30:29
of unit or year. And so I think there's probably
30:34
so much more that's gonna kind of unfold as students
30:37
continue to interact with it. But for me right
30:39
now, my work, I'm pretty much just focused on
30:41
how teachers can use it. Sure, and I'm imagining
30:44
that a teacher could probably use it to help
30:47
them with. Connecting something that they would
30:51
like to do with their students and making it
30:54
much more concrete. For example, I mean, you
30:58
know, like help brainstorm ideas for, you know,
31:01
maybe well actually back up here. Maybe they
31:04
even start with hey, I see like. this is a problem
31:08
out there. Maybe it's in the classroom, maybe
31:10
it's in their community, maybe it's global and
31:12
you know then well start to use maybe a little
31:16
bit of a design thinking process and maybe brainstorm
31:19
some of the reasons why it is the way that it
31:22
is. Look at it through that empathy lens and
31:24
then what are some things that we could potentially
31:27
do to try to help solve that problem or address
31:30
that problem. And then develop kind of that interdisciplinary
31:34
unit around it. And I could see AI being that
31:38
thought partner for the teacher in the process.
31:41
Is that kind of what you mean where you're starting
31:45
to implement it more with teachers and helping
31:48
them make some more of those connections between
31:51
the different parts of PBL? Yeah, as a starting
31:54
point, yes. I took a great course last summer
31:57
through IDEO that was called Design, Thinking
32:00
and AI. And my big takeaway was very much how
32:04
to use AI as a thought partner to help me brainstorm.
32:08
like really push my thinking. And so I think
32:12
in school settings where teachers can't collaborate
32:14
very much or they don't come together very often,
32:17
it can be a really wonderful thought partner
32:19
for brainstorming, full stop. Like just even
32:22
if that was the entry point and the only way
32:24
a teacher used it, I think they would find a
32:26
lot of value in coming up with project ideas.
32:28
Most teachers will tell you that's the hardest
32:30
place to start is getting started. It's the blank
32:33
page, right? Yeah, like I don't even know what
32:36
to do. So to your point, you know, you could
32:38
say I'm a I'm a seventh grade teacher. I teach
32:41
English. I'm looking for a project idea that
32:44
would cover these standards. You give it the
32:47
exact standards. Is there something that's happening
32:50
in the larger community, wherever it might be
32:52
that you live and then see what it comes up with?
32:56
Who knows what that would look like, but the
32:58
prompting from there is the most important piece.
33:01
And so yeah, right? Not a one and done thing,
33:03
but then following up and say. What am I missing
33:07
here? You know, like what other questions can
33:10
the AI ask me that will help pull out more of
33:14
what my intentions are? Yes, the prompting is
33:17
single -handedly the most important piece. And
33:19
also recognizing that it's a process. It's ongoing.
33:23
It's not one and done. And you get it until you
33:26
love it. So you don't have to take it if you
33:29
don't like it. Keep working it. Keep refining
33:32
it to make it work for your students and make
33:34
it be what you love. And then once you land on
33:38
that, that's just your starting point. But your
33:40
starting point is probably going to be so much
33:42
more robust and set yourself up for a more meaningful
33:47
project because you've thought through all those
33:49
different angles with the help of artificial
33:51
intelligence, rather than just diving into something
33:53
that might be kind of a dead end. That happens
33:55
all the time. We can't, you know, prior to this,
33:59
we didn't have the ability to predict certain
34:01
things. And so this helps us kind of predict
34:03
and think ahead to kind of cut off some of those
34:06
those dead end routes. How important is it for,
34:10
and I'm setting up an easy question here because
34:12
I think we all know the answer here, but how
34:15
important is it for a teacher to have a quality
34:19
relationship with their students before they
34:22
start introducing ideas that AI help them create?
34:26
In other words, is it important to know your
34:29
students in order to know with what you and AI
34:32
worked on together is still going to benefit
34:35
the humans in the room? Yes, it is. I mean, that's
34:39
actually what I wrote my dissertation on is teacher
34:41
-student relationships and project -based learning.
34:43
There is nothing more important than that. And
34:46
that's not unique to PBL, but it's especially
34:48
important in PBL. So I think it does take a little
34:52
bit of time to understand. I know for me, that
34:54
looked like last year, I'm thinking about I kind
34:58
of had a bunch of flops in August, September.
35:01
It took until early October. for me to hit my
35:04
stride and start designing things that worked
35:05
for my students. Um, and that was a little bit
35:08
of an ugly, messy process for both myself and
35:10
my students, but it just, it just takes getting
35:13
to know them, getting to figure out their, their
35:15
attention span, getting to figure out, you know,
35:18
anticipate where there's going to be challenges
35:21
and how to try and stay ahead of those. So it
35:23
is extremely important. And then for me, I, you
35:26
know, using AI really also as a professional
35:29
mentor or coach. So I would come back to it every
35:31
day and say, The lesson that we designed, I tried
35:34
it and here's where it went wrong. Or my students
35:37
really struggled with this, which we didn't anticipate.
35:39
Now what should I do to adjust for my lesson
35:41
for tomorrow? So again, that iterative ongoing
35:45
kind of feedback. Yeah, and I love the reflective
35:49
piece you just added into that too, where I think
35:51
a lot of people don't think, well, why can't
35:53
I go to AI to help unload some of my reflective
35:56
thoughts and get a little bit of feedback on
35:58
that to help improve? nothing works well or perfectly
36:03
the first time that you try it right it's an
36:05
iterative process just like the prompting you
36:07
talked about you know teachings the same way
36:10
and i think in the past so being reflective is
36:13
like one of the most important characteristics
36:15
of a pbl teacher i i mean of any teacher but
36:18
pbl especially um and so in the past that would
36:21
look like you know i i did everything on google
36:24
docs um And so it would look like me making notes
36:28
or adjusting whatever it was in the Google Doc
36:30
so that when I ran it next year, I had already
36:33
accounted for it. So I didn't forget. But this
36:35
is like you could go real time. And so you don't
36:38
have to wait to make the change for next year.
36:40
You could wait, you know, and just make the change
36:42
the next day, like to the next day's plans, even
36:45
not just the plans for next year, but for tomorrow.
36:48
And so to me, it felt so much more my teaching
36:52
felt so much more responsive, I think. because
36:55
I was able to reflect with AI along the way.
36:59
So in your opinion, does AI make PBL easier to
37:03
implement or does it raise the bar for designing
37:06
better learning? Such a good question. Such a
37:11
good question. Both. Can I say both? Absolutely.
37:16
I could definitely see both. Yeah, I think it's
37:19
funny. Somebody just responded in a comment on
37:23
my course about this saying that they that they're
37:26
hopeful about AI for teachers, but also a little
37:29
nervous that it's going to raise the level of
37:31
expectation for what teachers need to do, that
37:34
it's just going to become an expected average
37:37
thing that everyone just does. And I guess I
37:42
don't really know how to answer either of those
37:44
questions, but I will just share something I've
37:46
really been thinking about is I think now more
37:53
so than ever, we need to be really careful about
37:58
best practices of project -based learning and
38:02
teachers having an understanding of those things
38:05
before we can talk about AI supporting them.
38:09
in a project. My big fear is teachers saying,
38:13
oh, I could use AI to make a project and build
38:16
one, not push back on it or go through that iterative
38:20
process and then do whatever it spits out. Like
38:22
that, that makes me nervous. And so I think while
38:28
it can raise the bar, we also need to raise the
38:30
bar of professional development and supporting
38:32
teachers to know how to be that expert. I mean,
38:36
I think in all fairness, I use it so much, but
38:39
I'm also an expert in PBL. Like I wouldn't expect
38:42
someone who just is brand new to PBL to whip
38:45
out what I do. So I think there has to be that
38:48
professional development support for teachers
38:51
to get to that point where they feel really knowledgeable
38:54
about PBL so they can guide the AI to support
38:57
them in designing. So as you know, we talked
39:02
a lot about like what the teacher designing PBL
39:04
and then if you're thinking about what supports
39:07
there can be for for teachers, how would you
39:10
say or what are the best ways for leaders at
39:13
school districts to provide spaces for their
39:16
teachers to try these things? Yeah, good question.
39:22
So the one thing that's so hard for every school
39:25
is time, right? Like giving teachers time, but
39:28
giving them. structured support time. So rather
39:32
than just saying, oh, teachers have off from
39:34
our PD session today to just go work in their
39:37
classrooms, more focused on being a real organization
39:41
grounded in collective learning. So as a group,
39:45
we're all looking at this part of our teaching
39:47
practice. What are we working on? How can we
39:50
learn from each other? How are we reflecting
39:51
and sharing and kind of moving through that process
39:54
as a staff? Kind of like what we've talked about
39:56
the process a teacher would go through in the
39:57
classroom. that real iterative, reflective kind
40:01
of circle of learning. So I think time is great,
40:06
but structured and supported time. Every teacher
40:08
will tell you in this work that they need more
40:11
help. So getting them the help that they need.
40:15
In the schools where I've seen it work best,
40:19
it's been an ongoing relationship where it hasn't
40:21
just been come in and do two days of PD and then
40:24
good luck. See ya. It's hey, let's let's start
40:29
the relationship right now back to school. Let's
40:32
do a little bit. Try it. Let's come together.
40:34
How did we do? Let's do a little bit more. Same
40:37
thing. Try it. How did we do? And so it's really
40:39
more like this year long, ongoing with support
40:43
and project coaching in between. And it's a bummer
40:47
because schools aren't really set up that way
40:50
to support that kind of professional development.
40:53
But I do think that's what teachers really need
40:56
to do PBL well. So basically, like if you're
41:00
looking at sustaining PBL implementation, it
41:03
is first exposure and then continuous scaffolded
41:09
training as they as they go through. Would you
41:12
say like, is it? I mean, maybe you can't put
41:16
a time limit on this, but what would it be like
41:18
after after a year of trying something like this?
41:21
It should start to like. Just take on a life
41:25
of its own and if people get it or is it is it
41:28
a longer process than that? Or maybe it depends
41:30
too. Maybe it's variable. Yeah, and just kind
41:35
of like a sweeping statement would be You're
41:38
one you're trying it you to your two you're refining
41:41
it your three you're rolling like you are rocking
41:44
and rolling you are bringing in best practices
41:47
of exhibition you're connecting to the community
41:49
you're doing like you know, what PBL works would
41:51
call like gold star PBL. Like that's the ideal.
41:57
But I am yet to see it happen in less than three
42:00
years, that level of project based learning.
42:03
So for the most part, you know, a school leader
42:05
will say, I just want them to build and try a
42:08
project this year, just one. And that to me feels
42:11
manageable. So they can pick wherever in the
42:13
year they want to do it. They can go through
42:17
that cycle slowly and have all the support that
42:20
they need and feel really good about it. That
42:22
to me is kind of the sweet spot is one year,
42:25
but it just depends on what you want implementation
42:27
to look like and how deep you want to go. You
42:30
know, some school leaders are really ambitious
42:32
and I want to have a school wide exhibition.
42:34
OK, well, we can't just jump right into that.
42:36
We need to. I mean, you're really you're essentially
42:39
living project based learning. We need that.
42:41
That's our backwards point. We're going to move
42:42
back from there. What will it look like for us
42:45
to scaffold to get teachers ready for that so
42:47
that they feel good the students feel good and
42:49
the community feels good? Yeah, and so as you're
42:52
looking at like the you mentioned the first year
42:54
is it um We run into this all the time with pd
42:59
when you have shifts, right? But like you you
43:01
have a lot of teachers have Set lessons a set
43:04
curriculum set things that they've been doing
43:06
for a long time and they're that comfort level
43:08
is there with that so if if they're making a
43:11
shift to project -based learning and you're looking
43:13
at that first year, a teacher that's just starting
43:16
that first year, what type of like benchmarks
43:20
or things are you looking for them to hit as
43:22
they design or I guess redesign their lessons
43:26
to fit that PBL model? I mean I always encourage
43:32
teachers to just start with the easy lift. So
43:35
you know if you love your unit on pumpkins in
43:38
October and you don't want to let go of pumpkins,
43:41
then don't let's talk about a different content
43:43
that you would rather do the project on. Or if
43:47
you are a science teacher and for the life of
43:49
you, you can't come up with a reason why students
43:51
need to know about moon cycles, then maybe that's
43:56
not a good project. So I always say, hey, let's
43:59
just start with the easy lift. There has to be
44:01
something in your standards that has some real
44:04
world application that your kids could care about.
44:06
That is my entry point. And so I would say, if
44:10
that's really where they're entering in at is
44:12
like, where do I get started? Like let's just
44:14
start with designing something that takes what
44:16
you need to teach already and makes it meaningful
44:18
for students and a little bit more engaging.
44:21
Like that to me is like a really good baby step
44:23
of getting started and then having success so
44:27
that you're ready to then ask the next question
44:29
of like, Okay, so then what you know, what might
44:32
a final product look like or what might an exhibition
44:34
look like? Or it takes time and it takes getting
44:37
comfortable. I think for teachers to feel open
44:40
and vulnerable to sharing what their students
44:42
are doing. Yeah, that's great. And can you talk
44:46
a little bit too about crafted so your your work
44:49
that you're doing and if schools were to work
44:52
with you, can you talk a little bit about how
44:53
do you help through crafted help support PVL
44:57
training and implementation? Yeah, so it looks
45:00
different in every school setting. I know that's
45:02
kind of like a theme here, but in a perfect world,
45:06
a school has kind of the capacity. So the time,
45:11
the budget to... Allow teachers to be supported
45:16
over the course of a school year So I'm getting
45:18
ready right now to start a new cycle with the
45:21
school in Fresno So I'll go in to one of their
45:24
PD days in August and I'll kind of begin with
45:27
them on you know entry point here Here's PBL
45:29
what I call like 101 entry PBL best practices
45:33
gonna integrate a little bit of the AI Here's
45:36
how to help Use it to make your life a little
45:38
bit easier in terms of designing projects. And
45:42
then they are going to run the project. And then
45:46
I'm going to come back in January. And we're
45:48
going to look at student work and say, how did
45:49
it go? What do we need to rethink? What do we
45:51
need to refine? Let's make a note of that to
45:54
make that better for that project. And how might
45:56
we use that? to inform our next steps in designing
45:59
another project. So they're in more of a wall
46:02
-to -wall PBL setting. So they're a little bit
46:05
more of an aggressive timeline. But the idea
46:07
there is still, it's a year long, and there'll
46:09
be virtual project coaching in between. So I'll
46:12
only actually be on site with them the first
46:13
day. And then it's virtual project coaching.
46:16
I call PBL on your PJs because for me, it'll
46:18
be nighttime. For them, it'll be daytime because
46:20
I'm East Coast. And then it'll be a virtual.
46:26
in January, so I'll actually only be on site
46:29
with them that first time. It sounds like really
46:33
cool work. I want to do a little segment here.
46:36
I'm going to call it project or not a project,
46:38
and so I'm going to give you some classroom scenarios.
46:42
Then I want you to tell me whether this is. Is
46:44
this just a project like an isolated standalone
46:47
thing? Is it project ish like adjacent or is
46:51
it like true PBL? Oh my gosh, this is going to
46:54
be so hard for me because I turn everything into
46:56
a project. So I'm going to have to like stop
46:58
before I go down the rabbit hole. You just got
47:00
to stop. This is the scenario. And then I mean,
47:03
if you want to describe how you could elevate
47:05
it, you're welcome to do that. You don't want
47:07
me to do that. That might be a whole different
47:10
thing. A whole different episode. Yeah. Okay.
47:12
So like I remember doing, I think out of these
47:17
eight of them, at least six of them when I was
47:19
in school at some point. Is the A drop in there?
47:22
Is what is the egg drop in there? The egg drop
47:25
is not in there because I actually didn't do
47:28
that as a student. I only saw that being done
47:30
because my best friend is a fifth grade teacher
47:32
and they did it. But OK, volcano build, you know
47:37
the traditional baking soda vinegar volcano.
47:42
It depends. It could very easily be part of a
47:46
project, but just as a standalone like they build
47:49
it at the end of a chapter. not project -based
47:52
learning. What about a state research project
47:56
where the students, they choose one of the 50
47:59
states, they do the traditional, here's the population,
48:04
the, you know, the geography types, the, you
48:06
know, makeup of the people and the state bird
48:09
and flower and everything else. I remember mine
48:12
was Delaware because I was competitive and Delaware
48:15
was the first state. So if I thought I chose
48:18
the first state, then mine would have to be the
48:20
best because it's first. My mind goes to the
48:25
end cap of aisles at Michael's because I'm like,
48:28
it's like Michael's is set up to have all the
48:31
products for these projects and it would not
48:35
be project -based learning. Again, could be a
48:37
great benchmark that maybe is formatively assessed
48:40
within a project, but in and of itself standalone,
48:45
not what I would call project -based learning.
48:47
What about the creating of a school garden where,
48:50
you know, the students, they're studying plants,
48:52
they learn to calculate the costs of, you know,
48:55
purchasing seeds and, you know, the water that
48:58
needs to be added, getting, you know, the light
49:01
sources that they need, testing soils, deciding
49:04
what to plant, and then designing and maintaining
49:07
that garden through the spring. Yeah for sure
49:10
I've seen that one done quite a few times and
49:12
I've seen it really elevated to include You know
49:14
like markers that you have QR codes where you
49:17
can learn more about the different things in
49:19
the gardens And I think that one is so evident
49:22
that it's project -based learning because of
49:24
all the different content You just listed out.
49:26
I mean you just you rambled off like five different,
49:28
you know content areas that would be fully interdisciplinary
49:32
in that project that students would have to know
49:35
in order to have this final product of developing
49:37
the garden so that that to me is for sure project
49:40
-based learning. What about like a student uses
49:43
AI to generate a slideshow about a renewable
49:47
energy source and they look through it they've
49:50
prompted it and it seems really good and they
49:54
just take it then they present it to the class.
49:58
So without AI I will say I already kind of have
50:02
beef with the PowerPoint being a final product
50:04
for a project So that's a dead giveaway of where
50:08
I'm headed with this one, but I would say yeah
50:11
that I mean I actually I have this really great
50:14
Hierarchy that kind of uses blooms and shows
50:16
what traditional are versus project -based learning
50:20
products. And the PowerPoint and the poster,
50:22
those are all on very low level of blooms. So
50:27
for me, that one, even without AI, would definitely
50:30
fall to a lower level. What about student reads
50:34
and novel? They've got the option to make the
50:38
shoebox diorama of a setting from within that
50:43
novel. I mean, probably not. If it's just regurgitating
50:53
a setting from a novel, if it's like, we'll see
50:57
again, then I could just go down the rabbit trail
50:59
of what you could do to make it a project. But
51:00
just as it is, as you described, no, not project
51:03
-based learning. But they're using all the materials
51:06
from Michael's in order to craft it and put it
51:08
together. You mean that their mother probably
51:12
put together? Yes, probably. This one I've actually.
51:18
scene. But it was it was done at an outdoor learning
51:22
center where students went and they spent a week
51:24
out in the northern part of Minnesota here and
51:27
they did a really great unit as part of that
51:31
hands on curriculum of a lunch waste challenge
51:34
where over the course of the week they were measuring
51:37
the food thrown away, analyzing patterns, you
51:40
know, researching different solutions and then
51:43
trying to create some sort of a campaign that
51:45
they can take with them when they left that that
51:48
outdoor research center and they go back to their
51:50
schools. Yeah. And again, my mind immediately
51:53
goes to, as you're listing off all the different
51:55
things they did, why they were doing it. They
51:57
were doing it in service of being able to take
52:00
it back to their community, being able to actually
52:02
apply it in some way. And that is the big differentiator
52:06
between a project and project -based learning.
52:09
What about in end of the unit choice board? where
52:12
they've got nine different options that they
52:14
can show how they've demonstrated their learning.
52:17
It could be any of those different things that
52:19
we've talked about here. So here's what's tricky
52:22
with that one. It obviously depends on what's
52:25
on the choice board. But from a PBL perspective
52:28
and an assessment perspective, everything on
52:31
that choice board would need to assess the same
52:34
content and skills. And I don't. That would be
52:38
hard for me to come up with more than maybe like
52:40
three to four ideas. Maybe with AI now I could,
52:42
I don't know. But I think for the most part,
52:45
that's what's tricky about choice boards or giving
52:47
students unlimited choice in any project is,
52:50
hey, we're still on the hook for these standards
52:52
and these skills. So let's be sure that we're
52:54
not allowing students to do a piece of art that
52:57
includes paint being thrown on a canvas and calling
53:00
it art versus an entire documentary. Like those
53:03
are two very different. content and skills that
53:06
we're going to see in each of those. So that's
53:09
a little bit of a long -winded answer of it depends
53:11
on what's on the choice board. And one more,
53:15
what about like playground design? you know,
53:18
students learn some of the physics of the different,
53:21
you know, the swings or a slide and maybe they
53:26
start to apply some simple machines like in a
53:29
seesaw type of a thing, where they're also learning
53:32
about making different items of the playground
53:35
accessible to students of various abilities and,
53:39
you know, and then they present their ideas that
53:42
they have to maybe a PTA group or a school board
53:45
or to the principals. Yeah, I love that. And
53:48
I've seen that done a few times. I've seen it
53:50
done particularly well using design thinking
53:52
as the framework. OK. Jenny, we're going to get
53:58
into the lightning around here. So these, you
54:01
can give one word answers if you want to, or
54:03
you can expand on them as much as you would like.
54:07
Jeremy and I will kind of go back and forth,
54:08
and we'll wrap it up, too, with this or that.
54:13
So what is the first? that are a good first step
54:17
for a teacher who wants to try PBL next semester?
54:23
I would say I'd recommend more of my PBL light
54:27
approach that I've kind of referenced where it's
54:30
just kind of dipping a toe in and taking the
54:34
standards and making them connect to the real
54:36
world and think about what it might look like
54:38
to shift into more of like a final product rather
54:43
than a summative assessment. in traditional terms.
54:48
So David and I just got back from ISTE, which
54:50
was in Orlando this year. So it got me to thinking
54:53
about people that go to theme parks. You know,
54:57
you're bringing the family to a theme park like
54:59
a Disney park or any other one. Do you map out
55:04
a plan to maximize efficient use of your park
55:07
time or do you just go with the flow? Oh, I'm
55:11
a planner in all things. My life, I plan my life
55:15
like PBL. Like I plan it so much like PBL, I
55:18
have trained my family to think about it the
55:20
same way. So they'll be out and about and they'll
55:22
be like, mom, there's this really cool thing
55:24
happening. You should do a project on it. Like
55:26
they now know the way my brain thinks. It's awesome.
55:31
I can't stand not planning. It gives me anxiety
55:34
just thinking about it. What should a principal
55:41
do this month if they want to? to incorporate
55:44
more authentic learning in their school at the
55:46
start of next year. For teachers or for students?
55:51
Well, can we do both? Yeah, this is a time of
55:55
year where instructional leaders are thinking
55:57
about their PD plans for the entire year. And
56:00
so one of my favorite things to do is to do field
56:04
work. So taking the teachers out, even if it
56:08
looks like taking them out and doing a walk out
56:10
in the community, getting them out to think about
56:14
how they might bring the outside in is one of
56:16
my favorite things to do for back to school PD.
56:20
And then for students, I would say, I guess it
56:23
ties into teachers too, but kind of making that.
56:26
that bridge a little easier for teachers. So
56:29
maybe the instructional leader shares here are
56:32
five different community resources that are looking
56:35
to collaborate and projects this year. You know,
56:39
and then maybe they become the bridge between
56:40
the organization and the teachers to help them
56:43
figure out when it makes sense to come into the
56:45
classroom or or learn more about the organization.
56:48
So just kind of narrowing it down a little bit
56:50
for them and then supporting them with that.
56:54
What's a book or show that isn't education or
56:57
PBL related that you're into right now? Anything
57:01
by Kristin Hannah, I cannot stop reading that
57:05
woman. She's the most incredible author. I'm
57:07
reading Four Winds right now. My family knows
57:10
once I start one like there's you're not gonna
57:12
be talking to me for another couple weeks because
57:14
I can't put her I just love her writing. I love
57:17
it takes me to another place and she's just amazing.
57:20
So that's I'm really into her right now. So note
57:23
to one of your kids, if you want to get Time
57:25
Away from Mom for two weeks, buy her one of those
57:28
books. Totally. Totally. All right. So our last
57:34
one for this is you're going to do a conference
57:38
for Jeremy and I. We're going to have you as
57:41
our keynote speaker, and you have to choose your
57:44
walk -up song for what you're going to have playing
57:46
as you go up. And just so you know, we now have
57:49
a playlist. on Spotify with all of our guest
57:54
songs that have answered this question. So this
57:57
will go on the Spotify playlist, just as an FYI.
58:02
Oh, mylanta. Oh, it has to be Jenny from the
58:05
block. It has to be. OK. But that was not my
58:11
first thought. My first thought was terribly
58:13
inappropriate, so I didn't say it. That was my
58:15
second thought. Jenny from the block. Obviously,
58:20
that's that's J Lo, right? Yes. Okay. All right.
58:23
It will be added and I will send it. Yes, my
58:26
jam. And I love that the name tie in just makes
58:30
it so perfect. Yes, I even I even channeled Jenny
58:33
from the block with my hoop earrings today. And
58:36
if you're watching on YouTube, then you'll definitely
58:38
get to see that if not just manage, you know,
58:41
I wouldn't say they're overly excessively sized,
58:44
but subtle, subtle, subtle Jenny from the block.
58:48
Um and then just a few rapid choir this rapid
58:51
fire this or that questions and you know you
58:54
you have to pick one or the other here all right
58:56
would you rather use notebook and paper or a
58:59
notes app notebook and paper would you prefer
59:03
podcasts or music while traveling music would
59:06
you rather go to the mountains or the beach beach
59:14
would you rather get a text or a call When at
59:20
a social event, are you the first to leave the
59:22
party or the last one to go at the end of the
59:25
night? I'm the first and it's nothing personal.
59:27
I go to bed early. And if you're with that group,
59:32
do you prefer a big group hangout or one on one
59:35
time? One on one. That was the easiest part of
59:40
this whole interview. Was it? Okay. Except for
59:44
the beach or the mountain. That one was hard
59:45
for me. Yeah. It's usually it Jeremy and I really
59:49
can't. It's hard for us to guess what people
59:51
will say anymore. We had so many for it. We had
59:53
a long streak of mountains there for awhile,
59:55
so. I feel we've had a beach comeback though.
59:58
Yeah, it's even though I was. I'm from Southern
1:00:02
California, so I had both, you know, and I didn't
1:00:04
realize how fortunate I was until I moved to
1:00:06
Charlotte where I don't have either. Cool well.
1:00:12
Jenny, thanks for joining us and talking about
1:00:15
all your work and things you have going on with
1:00:17
PBL. Do you want to just take a moment and tell
1:00:20
listeners like any upcoming event things that
1:00:23
you have that you want to plug, where people
1:00:26
can get a hold of you, socials, all that type
1:00:28
of stuff. And we'll make sure to include that
1:00:30
in the show notes too. But if you want to shout
1:00:32
out some of those things. Yeah, that would be
1:00:34
awesome. I actually just launched last week my
1:00:37
new PBL plus AI certification. So using AI to
1:00:43
support teachers and project design. I'm really
1:00:46
excited about that. I've had some really good
1:00:47
feedback already from a few people. And then
1:00:50
yesterday I just launched the version for instructional
1:00:53
leaders. So just so that they are familiar with
1:00:57
the terminology that teachers are going to be
1:00:59
using, but then also kind of thinking bigger
1:01:02
picture around how do I structure PD agendas
1:01:05
a year at a glance of really supporting teachers
1:01:08
through PBL implementation, AI implementation.
1:01:11
So I just launched both of those right before
1:01:14
the back to school season. So I'm excited to
1:01:16
see what comes of those. And then on my website,
1:01:19
I've also just launched a series of new resources.
1:01:21
And I can share the link with you for AI support,
1:01:25
in particular, a PBL planning form that actually
1:01:28
has the prompts. that teachers can use and say
1:01:31
put into Gemini to help them build their project,
1:01:33
kind of what we did, and walks them through that
1:01:37
process without me. Awesome. Thanks again. Thank
1:01:43
you so much for joining us. Yeah, thanks for
1:01:45
having me. Thanks for listening to Integrate
1:01:49
This. Want to take your learning further? Head
1:01:52
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1:01:55
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