Latest / Between the Headlines: Columbus / Are New Policies Needed to Fix Holes Mickens Exposed?

Transcript

Are New Policies Needed to Fix Holes Mickens Exposed? · Between the Headlines: Columbus

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what he has come up with today to talk about.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not asking you to hide anything.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_04: No, put it out there.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_04: Let the people see it.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've never not worked in a hostile working department.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_04: You can't argue with anybody when they're putting facts in your face.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Zach.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's a hard question.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: I have no answer for it.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: From the opinion page of the Commercial Dispatch.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is Between the Headlines.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_06: This week on Between the Headlines, COO of Columbus Jamie Garrett is suspended for three days for misconduct, and the bid procurement process may be changed in the City of Columbus in the wake of the Mickens indictment.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_06: Also, the new city budget process introduced by Mr.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_06: Jason Spears looks like it may happen.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_06: And an interview today that you don't want to miss with Keith Gaskin and Bruce Hansen regarding MUW, MSMS, and the IHL board.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_06: But first.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_06: Retirement looks different for everyone, so your plan should be built around you.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_06: For over 40 years, Financial Concepts has helped people create retirement strategies that fit their lives.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_06: Our team in Columbus takes the time to understand your goals and build a plan that works for you.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_06: Wherever you are in your journey, we're ready to help.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_06: We plan retirement.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_06: Financial Concepts is a registered investment advisor.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_06: This episode of Between the Headlines is brought to you by Bank First, a bank headquartered right here in Columbus, Mississippi.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_06: That means your banking decisions aren't made hundreds of miles away by someone who doesn't know you.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_06: They're made here locally by bankers who know your name and care about the community.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_06: At Bank First, we're more than bankers.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_06: We're your neighbors.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_06: Whether we're cheering in the stands, catching up at a local pancake breakfast, or celebrating milestones across our community, we're part of the moments that matter most.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_06: Stop by your local Bank First branch or visit bankfirstfs.com to learn more.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_06: Bank First is a member FDIC and Equal Housing lender, Bank NMLS 454063.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_06: Good Thursday morning, Mr.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_06: Zach.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_06: You guys are listening to Between the Headlines.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_06: Mr.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_06: Zach Player here is our managing editor of the Commercial Dispatch and as always host of Between the Headlines.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_06: And my name is Dave Chisholm.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_06: A lot of things have happened in the past two weeks.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_06: We've got the Mickins indictment, and we've had the fallout from that.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_06: And I tell you, it's just been um what's the word, a roller coaster ride in terms of things you might expect to happen and then things that actually happen.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_06: And and first and foremost, um I guess we'll talk about Jamie Garrett and her suspension, at least what we know about it anyway.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_07: I seriously doubt that that is related even remotely to uh to the Joseph Mickens indictment, just to be clear.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_07: But um no, the uh they had a work session uh Wednesday, uh executive session of the work session, they come out, and uh a member of the administrative team, an administrative staff member, uh suspended for three days for misconduct.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_07: Now, of course, they don't name the person uh coming out of executive session.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_07: They don't talk about the discussion in executive session, but you know learned throughout the day, heard through the grapevine, who was Jamie Garrett.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_07: Uh called Jamie, she confirmed that it was her.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_07: And her only words were Well, her only on-the-record words were um uh it is true, and I did my job.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_06: So I did my job, that immediately makes you say, okay, it wasn't she was in the broom closet doing something gross.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_07: Sure, sure, sure.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_07: And uh there's there's several things that this says to me, if you look at all of the layers of it.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_07: Is one, uh a three-day suspension is that's meant to be a corrective measure.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_07: That's not one of these deals where they're trying to give her the message to start looking for another job.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_07: This is this is this seems to me, and this you know, opinions are those of the speaker, uh, this seems to me to be something that's like, Jamie, we're fine with you on the whole.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_07: We don't like this particular thing that you did, don't do that again, and just for for uh tangible consequences, you're gonna have to go without pay for three days.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_07: So I don't think that this is a the beginning of a push-out uh of Jamie Garrett or the or some sort of revelation that the council is overall unhappy with her.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_07: I think there was an instance where they believed that maybe she overstepped or did something that was out of, you know, did something that was outside of her purview.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_07: And um they wanted to correct that and let her know we we really don't want you to do that.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_07: Um and Jamie's response to that, honestly, seems like I mean, clearly she d isn't in agreement with uh that particular standpoint from the council because her quote I did my job uh sounds to me like she felt and I don't know, you know, again, I I don't know all the details here, but that quote makes it sound like she very much thought that she was within her right to do what she did and not not doing something nefarious off to the side here for her own purposes, but she felt like she was doing something that was one of her job duties, and the council said, don't do it that way.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_06: Well, and it comes on the heels of that rant by CFO Jim Brigham, which makes you think there might be some kind of a shakeup going on down there.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_06: I mean I don't know.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, like to to to the point that I was making, I don't think that that's a I I think that you've got a council that is trying to make sure things are done a certain way, whether you agree with that way all the way or not, uh notwithstanding.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_07: And I think that this was them saying to her, here's a corrective measure.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_07: Now, I will say a couple of points of fact.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, she's just had a baby and she's working from home instead of being on maternity leave.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_07: So and that's that is common knowledge.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_07: That's that's those are things that they've discussed openly at council meetings uh for what that's worth.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_06: But um Well, you had mentioned doing things the right way, and that brings us to point on this bid procurement process.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_06: Um real quick, the math on it.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_06: It used to be, or I guess currently is by state law that you have to have a uh on a$75,000 or more project, it has to be sealed bids.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_07: Sealed bids, confidentials submitted, and then have an opening, all of that stuff.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_06: And I had no idea the number was that high for it to have to be a sealed bid.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_06: I was thinking it would have been way lower for that.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_06: But regardless, in the wake of the Mickins indictment, the city council seems to be like, you know what, we should probably lower that amount to uh keep things in check.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_06: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_07: Well, and I mean let's the city council has not voted on this yet.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_07: They've discussed it, um, they're considering it.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_07: But this was a presentation, this was brought forward by the administration, um, endorsed by the mayor, um, and uh city attorney Jeff Turnage drafted this ordinance, and uh essentially what it would do is it would require, it would lower the uh so right now, between 5,000 and$74,999, you go and you get a couple of quotes, or you get quotes until you get the right one.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_07: You don't have to have uh you don't have to do that in a sealed confidential way.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_07: You can just go get the quotes, present the quotes, and here they are, and um and then go do the job.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_07: If it's under$5,000, you can just go and say, hey, you do you want this?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_07: Can you do it?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_07: Can you do it for less than$5,000?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, when can you have it done?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_07: And there doesn't have to be any quote process or competitive process involved with that at all.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_06: And to be clear, you're still not allowed to rig the bid.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_06: You're still not allowed to go to a competitor or a friend and say, hey, I'm gonna go bid$18,900.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_06: You need to bid 18.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_07: Well, yes, I you're you're not supposed to do that.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_07: But um But now when you're getting quotes, when you're just getting quotes and those quotes aren't sealed and you're getting them in sort of disparate ways, you're just going, you're calling people, hey, what's your quote?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_07: Write it down, what's your quote, write it down.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_07: And then you're telling people, well, I've got this quote, this quote, that still doesn't that's that's still higher than what we've got budgeted for this.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_07: Let me go get some more quotes, which is kind of how that's then going on.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_07: It's not secret.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_07: And so there's two things that uh Mr.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_07: Turnage is trying to accomplish uh with this ordinance change.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_07: And the first is to make it to make it a secret bidding process um up to the$74,999 uh instead of just going and getting quotes and it not being a sealed process in any way.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_07: Um the other thing he's wanting to do is lower the that$5,000 threshold uh to where you can just go say, hey you, what can you do this for?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_07: All right, do it Thursday.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_07: Um he's wanting to lower that down to$1,000 for construction and uh non-professional services and to$3,000 for like commodities and and and things of that nature.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_06: And it's hard to disagree with that because four thousand bucks when there's a single bidder, that adds up in a hurry.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_06: That can be a chunk of taxpayer change.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_06: Well, and I mean some of it, the price, it I mean, it just costs what it costs, but government is not known for creating competition, and it's got to be there for us to, you know, well there's there's there's there are there are things you don't want, and let's uh obviously start with what the with the loop that this uh ordinance is attempting to close.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_07: You don't want bid rigging, and you don't want people who are uh you don't want people in city government essentially insider trading on uh city jobs like Mickens has allegedly done.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_06: And you don't want contractors just bidding ridiculously high because they know that they can and they're the only guy out there that's gonna do the job.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_07: You've got that.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_07: And then you also don't want somebody bidding ridiculously low because they, you know, it's the only work they can get because they do shoddy work.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_07: And they're they're shady contractors, as it were.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_07: Now, how much of that is out there, I don't know, but that is something that um that is something that was discussed yesterday as one of the things this is trying to fix.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_06: Nathan Katona had some stuff to say about that.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_07: Uh and he's the and he's the building department director.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_07: Um obviously you don't want to make it so stringent to where uh good contractors don't bother.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_07: So one of the th one of the things that they're trying to do with this, and again it hasn't passed yet, but one of the things that they're trying to do with this is instead of it being just a you can submit a sealed paper bid under this ordinance.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_07: But you don't have to.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_07: There'll also be a secure electronic way that you could that you could submit uh a secret uh bid as well.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_07: Um the work would then be vetted, permitted and inspected by the building department, uh depending on if it if it's some of the if it's construction or contracting.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_07: And if you don't complete the scope of work, you just don't get paid.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_07: Yep.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_07: I mean if you get if you can't pass inspection, you don't get a check.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_07: That's that's that's how that works.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_07: But um so I think that there's a lot of uh you know, in principle there are a lot of good things in place there.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_07: But uh, you know, Rusty Green I think has a point in the lowering of the threshold down to a thousand dollars.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_07: Um who are you gonna get to go to too much trouble for a thirty five hundred dollar job?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it might bottleneck the prices a little bit.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_07: And you know, I think that that's a good point and one that they would need to hash out, but uh uh you know, that job that uh in the indictment that Mickens is accused of rigging, that was an$18,000 job.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_07: That was a quote qualifier that wasn't a sealed bid, that what it didn't have to have sealed bids for that.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_07: And I think that those are the types of jobs that if you're if you're gonna be nefarious, that five to seventy-four, nine ninety-nine, that's that's your ticket for being nefarious.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_07: And so it I think that the city could have very easily, and I have seen the city of Columbus do in the past things like, well, that wasn't me, so this isn't my problem anymore.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_07: Why would you uh well that was Mickens or that was this person, that was Milton.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_07: That wasn't the city.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_07: That wasn't d you know, when I'm saying Milton, I mean Milton Raw, the uh uh former CFO that was uh imprisoned for embezzlement.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_07: That was Milton, that was Mickins, that was this person, that was this wasn't the city proper, and it certainly wasn't me.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_07: That could have easily been Jones's position, that certainly could have been Tarnage's position, and that could have been the position of everybody on this council.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_07: But I think it speaks well of the city and specifically the administration that they saw this issue and said, We need to do something to plug that hole.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, you could look at it and you could say that it's reactionary, uh, which it is, but this is not just reactionary, uh, it's proactive.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_06: But but they're gonna have to stay proactive because I tell you what, if somebody wants to do it the wrong way, they will find a workaround.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_06: They'll look at these and they'll say, you know what, let's take this project and instead of it being a$15,000 project, let's split it up into three phases, which by the way, Jeff, if you're listening, you need to work it into the language of this ordinance so that they cannot willingly take a$15,000 project and make it into three little pieces of$5,000.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_06: You know what I'm saying?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_06: But you've got to be transparent and you've got to be vigilant, no question.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_07: Uh and I think that if you if you think that this ordinance goes too hard, maybe that is true, but I do respect the effort of trying to do something and not just sitting there and saying, well, they got Mickins, that's good.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_07: So uh business as usual.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_07: I think that I I think them taking the responsibility and the accountability to try to uh keep that from happening again is uh speaks speaks well of that speaks well of the effort.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_07: Whether this is the vehicle, I think remains to be seen.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_07: The council may uh continue to uh massage this a little bit or get Jeff to, but uh I I I I applaud the effort and I applaud where it's coming from.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_06: Sounds like a good day.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_06: And um the um the bid process may see some change, but not only that, the budgeting process looks like it also may see some change.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_06: And and I tell you what, this to me is absolutely wild because Jason Spears project looked to me absolutely dead in the water.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_06: Same old crap.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_06: Um here comes uh the high priest, Mr.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_06: Jim Brigham, to to give his rant on.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_06: And so I can't help but wonder, all right, first off, this thing passed, right?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_06: This document passed.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_07: Did it?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_07: So let's let's talk about what this actually is and what has actually happened.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_07: Okay.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_07: Uh it's a it's a budget outlook document.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_07: Um it it speaks to things like retiring debt, it speaks to things like you know, generating alternative revenue, it it it's it's it's things like that where they're looking at what do we do right now, what are our next steps, and as we are budgeting, we're using this sort of as our handbook for our priorities.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, uh and a model, and it's the same document that was put out there last week, both for Facebook and for the council.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_07: Right, right.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_07: So the public has had an opportunity to see this.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_07: Uh the council has seen it.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_07: Um we had Mr.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_07: Spears in last Thursday, two days after he tried to present it for passage, and uh it was essentially tabled, and there was a a lot of rigma roll about it.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_06: Well, it was at the ass end of the meeting for starters.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, well, there's that.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_07: Um and everybody was tired by them because that was a particularly long meeting.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_07: But um it was at the end of the work session agenda yesterday, and he brought it back up unamended.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_07: Um said, I've talked to Jim.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_07: Jim said nothing.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_07: Well, and very perfunctory, unanimous uh approval to um adopt that as the budget outlook guiding document.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_06: My mind is blown.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_06: You're t you're telling me that Jason Spears took a dove to the high priest, offered it unto him, and he blessed it.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_06: And then I don't think that that's necessarily true.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_07: I all I said was that Jim didn't say anything.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't say that Jim blessed it.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_07: I didn't know.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_06: Regardless, somehow, Jason, your sins be forgiven the and that the council looks at and and and just I guess comes to the epiphany.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_06: This is a damn good document.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_06: Let's do it.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_07: I don't I don't know if I I don't know if I agree with that assessment of the situation.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_07: All I am saying is that Jim didn't argue and the council approved it unanimously.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_06: Well, there's also hang on, there's the other possibility that that with his soliloquy that he went into, that he kind of um pissed in the whiskey, muffled some feathers.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, they're like, maybe there were some folks who said, I don't think we're gonna deal with that.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_06: Let's let's look into this despite the complaint that was rendered.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_06: Maybe.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_07: To whatever extent he has he convinced his uh uh he did the thing that I was skeptical that he could do.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_07: And um and I think he was telling us last week that he'd already done it, uh, which was get the uh consensus that he needed, or at least the majority that he needed, but this was a unanimous vote.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_07: They adopted it.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_06: Um You know, this just one more thought on that.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_06: It just blows my mind because when you texted me and said that that document had passed unanimous, I was thinking it was like some Babylon B article, or it was like almost like the Saturday night live skit where the president of Mexico back in 2016 brings the check in to help Trump pay for the wall, and it's just a bunch of winning.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_06: I'm like, no, Columbus doesn't win on that caliber.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, we try to win, but we shoot ourselves in the foot, and you're telling me within a week, amendments um or um reconciliation has been made, and despite all the drama, good things are happening for the friendly city.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_07: Again, let's talk about what this document is.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_07: Document is a plan, it's a guide, it's a it's it's it's it's a guiding sort of document for hey, when we're making our budget, let's look at these priorities and plug these priorities in.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_07: Let's talk about what has and hasn't happened with the budget proper.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_07: One, they have set the tax rate.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_07: They did that last week.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_07: If you live in the city limits, your city taxes and your city school taxes are not going up.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_07: Don't know what the county is gonna do yet, but you know, if if history we've got an idea.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_07: If history is any indicator of future events, that that may be a different answer.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_07: But your city taxes aren't going up and your city school taxes aren't going up.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_07: Um so they're up and they're and they're gonna try to operate under the parameters of a balanced budget.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_07: So uh and and and those are all good things.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_07: Now, how much of this guiding document that they passed is actually gonna be applied to the budget document that has not yet been passed, that won't be passed for a little later yet.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_07: So the way that that process works is they set the millage, which they did and it didn't change.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_07: And now within that millage that they have set, they're gonna form a budget.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_07: And then they'll pass that budget um before September fifteenth by September 15th.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_07: In the meantime, they've got this document that That they have passed to say, okay, as we're doing our budget, we're going to look at this.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_07: We're going to allegedly apply it in some measure.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_07: That hasn't been defined as to what measure they're going to apply it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_07: And let's remember even Jason himself, I'm not certainly not trying to throw dirt on Jason, but this is a very I th I think that this is a very good point.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_07: This council and city council's past have not always been the best at applying their own rules to situations.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_07: Jason himself had the council push the council to implement a moratorium on uh city sponsorships of walk-up events.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, that thing.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_07: Right.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_07: Four times they lifted that moratorium and he made the motion to lift the moratorium.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_07: So how many times are we going to look at this document and say, well, yeah, that's our guiding document.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, especially if it's not binding.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_07: So it could end up a lot like the Ten Commandments are with us.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, that's a problem for sure.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_06: Well, I tell you, on the surface, this looks like fantastic news.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_06: We just gotta be intentional as a city.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_06: And that's my point.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_06: And and if if they are intentional and if they in good faith just um and and look, uh I know Jason, Jason's not trying to even really take the credit for this document.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_06: You know, he gathered the stuff that made its way into that document from all of the sources, Jim Brigham included.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_06: And so I think if they'll stick with it, we'll see good things happen in the friendly city.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_06: You mentioned the balanced budget.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_06: Like I'm I'm super stoked about this.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_06: I'm very optimistic.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_06: We'll see what happens.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_06: Also that thing about alternative revenue sources, you know, the the optional uh sales tax.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_06: That's a neat thing.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_06: And by the way, uh we have on our community podcast um Facebook group.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_06: If you haven't checked that out, check it out and please join us.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_06: Uh but we have some exclusive content of part of the interview with Jason Spear.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_07: Very lengthy interview with Jason last week, and it didn't all make the uh uh episode edit cut.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_07: But he he gets deep into the sausage about how that's yeah, we've got uh that's a good way to put it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_07: We encourage you to uh if you're interested in that sort of thing, go take it a listen on our Facebook group page.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_06: At this time, we are pleased to welcome into Catfish Alley Studio Mr.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_06: Keith Gaskin, former mayor of Columbus, and Mr.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_06: Bruce Hanson, who is a former lawmaker and for today's purposes the chair of the Citizens Coalition for MUW and MSMS.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_06: Welcome both fellas to the show today.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_06: Well, thanks for the kind invitation.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Keith, for jumping in on me.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_04: And uh and anyway, uh good to be with you.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_06: And Keith is also a member of this coalition.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, Keith is.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_07: So well let's just start with uh why the coalition exists and what you guys are up to right now.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the the reason that we felt it was important to bring an organization like this together is because of what we have been facing for multiple years now with uh the the possibility of merging or closing the W and moving uh MSMS.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, this is not something that's just happened in 2024.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's happened 20 years ago, it's happened before that.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's something that cycles through periodically.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: And what we have found, uh, and I reached out to Bruce and a couple of others when we were talking about this, and we worked on the committee before that was formed in 24 that worked on campus with the uh administration there for at both institutions, um, and Jim Davidson did as well.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, this comes out from the legislature every now and then, but they never come out opening with, we have done studies, this is how it's gonna save money, this is how it's gonna improve education in Mississippi.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's just uh we think eight are too many.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that's basically what we hear without any real true justifications.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Would you agree, Bruce?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: I I would agree, and your talk about 20 years ago actually was 30 years ago or more.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_04: And uh uh just to get as an anecdotal thing, uh my deskmate Ronnie Robertson and uh Johnny Juncan, uh Ronnie was from Greenville, I'm Greenwood and and uh Johnny was from uh from Natchez, both served on the appropriations committee in the legislature, and they leaned over to me.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_04: They're my deskmates.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_04: If anybody knows the layout of the of the legislature, there's we s we sent three or four to a to a table.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: And they leaned over to me and they said that we're gonna we're gonna take the W out of the appropriations today.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_04: That was ten minutes to four.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_04: And uh my my role at that point in time was uh the speaker would always recognize me and say uh the gentleman from Lowndes and I would I would move that we we would dispense with the reading of the minutes in an introduction of bills.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_04: That was a it was a thing to keep us from having to bog ourselves down into you know minutiae.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_04: And the next thing coming up would be because of the appro the way the process would work, appropriations would be first on the on the on the list of things that come up.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: So between ten minutes to four and fifteen minutes after four, I had to come up with a speech about don't close the W.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: He just lobbed a bomb out there out of the blue.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: And so uh well they had obviously had discussed it.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_04: For sure.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh in the in the appropriation committee process.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_04: But uh so the whole point was that uh we we had uh we had a deal with that, and it was it was because uh obviously the IHL had really been uh muddling about about it, kicked it to the legislature, so to speak, or punt it is one of the words I used while I was there that day.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_04: That uh uh in it obviously we were talking about uh the same thing dealing with Mississippi Valley State, which was part of the prop uh part of the problem or part of the solution as they were as they were making their uh their case about it.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_04: Uh uh Delta State was kind of like let's let's m let's merge Delta State and Mississippi Valley State.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_04: Let's do something with Alcohol, maybe put it with Jackson State.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there this was the kind of things that were going on in that process.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_04: And the IHL simply said, well, we just can't do anything about that, so let's let's let's let's let the legislature take care of it.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: And so that was the process that we that we dealt with.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_07: So But the speech must have worked.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_07: It did.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_07: It did.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Charlie Capps, who was chairman of appropriations at the time, said that stood at the podium and said he never knew there was a thousand uh alumni uh from the W that from that were from England, much less the forty thousand other people that sent him letters uh during that period of time.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: So so that came off the table very quickly, uh, which was the right thing to do at the time.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: So we're now we're back to that same question once again.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_04: That that uh the people are trying to talk about saving money or merging institutions and things of that nature.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_04: And as Keith has pointed out correctly, there's no viable studies that indicate that this this might be the process we need to follow.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_04: That they just simply say, well, let's let's see what we can do about that and then throw it out there.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_07: So you guys, y'all came together, wrote out a a very well-stated uh endorsement for Dr.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_07: Doris Taylor to be the new president of the W.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_07: Hand delivers that to IHL.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_07: Was that you, Bruce?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_04: No, Jim Davidson actually delivered that.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Judge Davidson was the one we asked Jim, he was going to Jackson that day anyway, or the day before, actually, because of personal business.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: So he said he volunteered to take it personally to them.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_07: Well, as far as his report back, what did they just take it and say thank you?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_07: We'll take it under advisement, or was there any feedback?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_07: What was the response from IHL to you guys for the effort that y'all put in?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Well, he said that uh I think it's Sewell who we met with who's over public relations, and he called in advance to make sure we were uh doing it the right way.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: And as everybody should know, uh the IHL uh does allow for people to make nominations.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and they have their and their selection process is very broad.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they they're it's evidently very long.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so he said that uh Mr.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: Sewell was uh very, very nice.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh Jim being a good judge and an attorney had a document for him to sign that he had received the uh uh the nomination.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but he didn't get a lot of, you know, direction on what the next steps were going to be.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um they're pretty tight-lipped about that right now as far as where they are in the process.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: But he said that, you know, and I think he's tried to uh as of yesterday we were talking to him.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: He was trying to follow up with him and had not heard back.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: Uh we do know that I think they're uh going to have a retreat on the 28th, which is is that today or tomorrow?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's tomorrow, I believe.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: And then we think that just and this is second-hand information, it's not directly from the IHL board.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then at their next meeting in September, hopefully there will be something about the pro the W search process.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: Now he did say, he did say to Jim too, Mr.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: Sewell did, that he would get the nomination into uh the uh the person that's in charge of the search, which is but we don't have any confirmation.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: Teresa Hubbard, I believe, is is the one that's uh chairing the search.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but that's basically all that he got.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_07: As stakeholders in this community and people who are advocates for MUW, uh Norah Miller announced she was going to retire.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_07: She announced that in January.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_04: January 5th.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_07: Why have there not why is the application process not even really open yet for her replacement here nine months hence?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_07: Trevor Burrus, Jr.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: Well, because they have You know, I mean it's all speculation because they've not been forthcoming with it.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what happens uh when you're not forthcoming with information, people begin to speculate.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_06: Trevor Burrus And that speculation breeds a lot of um confusion and worry on the part of people around here and elsewhere.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_06: You had mentioned uh an IHL retreat earlier.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_06: Is that gonna involve cigars?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, are they going to uh uh I've never attended, but Bruce, you might know.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: Are they open?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they ought to be.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure that wherever wherever they go, there might be some local uh uh you know people welcoming wherever they are.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_04: Normally they have met on the coast in the past.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and uh I don't know where they I don't know where that meeting is going to take place.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and it usually it's it's done on a regular basis, uh, you know, in their defense, that uh you know it's done on a regular basis and and they do you know get themselves away from normal wear and tear, you know, everyday stuff so that they can begin to concentrate on where they're where they ought to go.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so uh and uh you're try you're talking about a a slow moving process that they that they follow.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_04: And they have been doing that for years.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like a slow moving process.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_07: Well, a slow moving process is very different from a process that we delayed starting for nine years.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, this is glacial.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_07: I know IHL has has been very adamant on the record about no, we want to protect all eight of our universities.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_07: Uh you know, when this merger thing came up last time and you know they were they were very clear on we'll do what the legislature tells us to do, but we support eight universities.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_07: Do you feel like this is a situation where the IHL is instead of acting maybe independently, they're waiting on Delbert or uh Dabar or any any number of other people to tell them, okay, this is what you're going to do and when you're going to do it.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_07: Or do you think that they're actually acting as an independent body in this particular question?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_04: I I see no evidence at this point in time that that they're they're working in coalition with each other.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_04: I I I think that there is there's an independent uh effort on in the legislative side of the equation that we've seen where they're they've begun discussing the merger of school districts as an example.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh there's been some rumors about merging uh community college districts.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_04: That was another discussion.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_04: So yes, uh there's there's that legislative side of things.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_04: Uh on the but on the other side, the the the IHL, uh I don't uh there's no uh information that we have that says that they're connected in any way at this point in time.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it's so so we're hearing kind of like what we heard 30 years ago in that sense of the word.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I would like to think that there's not.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they're members of the uh IHL board, you know, we have uh local folks that are on that board.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Greg Rader has been a friend for years.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh Ste Charlie Stevenson is actually I'm related to by marriage.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: He and my wife are cousins.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_03: He Charlie grew up coming to Columbus, they grew up together.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and I've talked to both of them, not since this has happened, but before when I was mayor about when in 24 when all this was happening about the W and uh MSMS.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, they, you know, Charlie's mother graduated from the W.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, obviously Greg is from here.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um they they s they were very supportive of the W and MSMS here, but in their role as IHL board members, they can't speak out.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: But they're also both, you know, very well connected to Mississippi State.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: They they're both supporters of uh elected officials.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: So there's, you know, there's all that which causes people to question even people they know well.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm trying for us to stay away from that, calling names or pointing at them in any way because their job is difficult.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: It is very difficult.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_03: But they also know that they the IHL board has been criticized many times about the selections they've made as university presidents and the processes that they've used.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's why it is confusing to me, and and and I will be, you know, uh full disclosure here, you know, I've I'm a big proponent of being transparent.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: I have texted those two gentlemen and said when we nominated Doris that all I asked was them for them to please give her serious consideration.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I I didn't text again, they didn't respond to me, I didn't expect them to.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: I I if I was on the IL IHL board and he had they had I wouldn't have responded to that text either, probably.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: But um so I don't want us because we don't want to and there are some people that are very upset with the IHL board, but we don't want to cast anything.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: What we're doing is not to call them out or to make them look bad.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: What we're trying to do is to make sure they are clear that you know they are on the board from elected officials appointed them who citizens elected.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: And choosing a university president has a major impact on our town, our county, our state, the region.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, yeah.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so the citizens, I feel like we should have more information.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so we're trying to take all the proper steps and not call out or embarrass anybody in this process.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: Our that is not our goal.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: Uh our goal is to make sure that our community is aware of the importance of this university for our community and MSMS, the importance that they have in our community.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: We've got the data to back it up.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the W just received more national recognition, rated higher than any other university in the state.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so these are the things that the let you never hear from the legislature.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: And when they keep this cloud over the W and MSMS, it holds them back and it needs to stop.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_07: Well, and and to piggyback off of that, uh, the cloud over the W that is very clearly there in their future, what happens there.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_07: Are you surprised, uh, I guess at all that even with that going on, you've got at least on paper two pretty solid uh drafteed uh interested parties in the presidency.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, you would you would think that if if if that was a if if that was considered a toxic asset, that there wouldn't be super qualified people wanting to leave it.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, they should have sent us a thank you for the nomination.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_04: I would think so too.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_04: Well, jokingly aside, that you're correct, uh uh Zach, that uh uh even regardless of whether it was one or the other uh in turn in terms of it, we the the idea is to to remove that cloud and say we've been sitting here since January the fifth.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh we have we have a really important university in our system.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_04: We need leadership at this time.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I I I'd hate to bring this up at at this point in time.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_04: My my wife was was Dr.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_04: Hogar's secretary.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_04: And then when he when he retired, she was Dr.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_04: Strobel's secretary.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_04: I saw some real leadership during that period of time, you know, because my I was I was connected in that sense to the W.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_04: My sons grew up in the uh uh the child development lab uh on on campus.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: So so we were connected that way.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_04: And then along came Clyde Arent, another you know, big, you know, personality.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_04: Personality, right?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_04: Uh with all the warts and everything else that people have at that at that level of uh leadership.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, in between you've had these valleys of of nothing going on.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_04: And uh and we had of course we did have Nora and she and she she's done a commendable job with with it, there's no question about it.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: But it's time to remove all that stuff and say, let's move forward with it.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_04: And and that that's why we we took the steps.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_04: We said, let's go.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_04: We've we've got somebody.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_04: We've the we have a person you can measure a standard against as far as uh leadership.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_07: And then the other person is uh Absolutely.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_04: Uh former Yeah, absolutely.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_04: She she is she is a she's a highly qualified person and and has you know has has the uh I think the the the uh things that that that she should have to to to be a leader in the in in the in the university.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know about her academic background, but and I know more about but she has.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_04: I haven't met her and haven't talked to her alive like I've talked to uh Dr.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_04: Taylor, but but I'm I'm I'm you know we have a couple of really, really primary candidates that that uh and the idea is this is let's move forward, let's take the take away that issue and let's let's let's let the W thrive which like it ought to thrive in our community.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm looking at it from that perspective.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, I look at it when I was attacked back 30 years ago.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_04: I'm tired of that.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_04: That's what I'm saying.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_04: That's why I I came to this group because they have would you help us out?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I'm I'm I want to do something about this.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_04: It's maybe the I'm 84 years old.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_04: This may be the last thing I do in life.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_04: But my point is let's do it.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_04: Let's get it done.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm I'm tired about that.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_04: I'm tired about messing with the MSMS, and it's time for us to fix that problem.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_04: Mr.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_07: Hanson, with all due respect, if you had come in here and told me you were 60, I'd have believed.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_04: I know, right?
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_07: But uh but you have speaking of the fact and uh and y'all were talking you're talking about uh uh Sally Doty being well qualified on paper.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_07: Um you her name was put out there first.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_07: Y'all's um coalition backed somebody else.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_07: What was that process like and why that decision?
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I'd like to because Sally's a friend of mine.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so is Scott, the interim president.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: I've known both of them longer than I've known Dr.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: Taylor.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and Sally and I have talked uh a couple times and and exchanged uh lots of text messages during this process.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, her name came out uh uh at the talking sessions when the IHL board specifically said they didn't want to hear specific names.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: So uh there was folks that felt like it was important for her name to come out.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we had talked about her before Nora when Nor after Nora announced.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, she was obviously somebody that would be a strong candidate to be president.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I like her very much.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um what I ha have said to her is that um I think she could be a very good president for the W.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I appreciate everything she's done for the W.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_03: I know she's worked hard in Jackson in the past for the W, and I know she would as president.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: I said you will you would be a very good president, and we would this organization would back you 110 percent.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: She's been invited to come and talk to us and visit with us.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: I said, the difference is, I said, I strongly believe with everything in me that Dr.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: Taylor would be a transformational president, and that's what the W needs.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_03: That's what the state needs, that's what Columbus and Lowndes County needs, and that's definitely what MSMS needs.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_06: Transformational into what?
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I mean, look at her you've looked at her resume or you've at least looked at it.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, transformational leadership when they come in.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um I mean, I think some people, a lot of the presidents at universities, I think the current president of Mississippi State would love to say he's a transformational president.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: You look at all the the growth, he's got lots of power in Jackson now.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he's he came in with lots of connections.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: But transformational, I mean, Dr.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: Taylor has a Rolodex that nobody in this State has.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: She has inter She was named by Time magazine as one of the most 100 impressive people in the world.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: Does that not tell you that she has a brain that could do things that make it transformational?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the woman is is I mean, doing things that nobody else has done and she was told she couldn't do.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: She has a clear plan for the W.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: She was interested in the job when Nora got it.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: But that process moved in a way which they made her the interim and then named her that she didn't have an opportunity to apply.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: So when I heard that, I mean, I almost fell out of my chair because I didn't have any idea she'd be interested.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: For her to come back to her hometown, I mean, if she is named, just watch the attention.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_04: There's even a a a s a smaller sample of this transformational leadership.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_04: Dr.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_04: Dr.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_04: Strobel, uh in in co in coordination with uh Governor William Winter at the time, started the governor's school at the W.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_04: And it still exists right now.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_04: It's still going on, it's still touching teenagers around the state.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and it started with a couple of local people involved.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_04: Uh late uh uh Bud Sanderson from Sanderson Plumbing was one of the people involved in it.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_04: Larry Tiner, who was working at Warehouser at the time, another person that was involved in it.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and I know another person, but I won't mention his name, uh, that was involved in it as well.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_04: And and we created the governor's school here in in at the W.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_04: Transformational leadership, a small step to to to to give a different perspective and bringing and at the same time create a pipeline for students to come to the W.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_07: And and I get exactly what you're saying, but I want to share with you and then turn it into a question here.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_07: I mean, I've gotten a dozen calls, had several conversations about this issue.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sure you have.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_07: And wait.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_07: Sally Dodie's political connections, her her knowing where the bodies are buried and and all of the things in the Capitol, and just having that skill set and those connections makes her a better choice short term right now.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_07: And uh Doris Taylor as a transformational long longer term leader, uh, had one friend of mine put it, uh Sally Doty today, and then Doris Taylor to the moon.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_04: So let me answer.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_04: So what say you about that?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_04: Let me answer this question this way.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_04: Uh does anybody know a man named Jack Freeman?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_04: He was Dr.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_04: Hogarth's number one guy.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_04: And he had the connections with the legislature.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: And so therefore, when when Dr.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_04: Hogarth needed something, Jack Jack Freeman was the guy that helped solve that problem for him.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_04: He worked for Dr.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_04: Dr.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_04: Dr.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_04: Hogarth at the time.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_04: So, in other words, Dr.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_04: Hogarth did not have a direct connection with the legislature, but he had somebody that worked for him that did that very same thing.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_04: So you don't necessarily need to have somebody that d knows everything about everybody, but you do you have to have somebody that's right.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: And my answer to that, too, is if if she's not selected, would then Sally not still fight for the W down there?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: Could she still not use those same connections in a way?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh who knows?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_03: She might become part of the team with them.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, uh, you know, she and Doris are friends.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: They've had good conversations.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: I think that the the political connection is a tad bit short-sighted.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I mean, we we Jackson is um supermajority Republican, and they don't get along.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_03: Do they?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_06: No.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: So so when you're down there in those fights like that, you know, what can happen?
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I you know, again, I'm not gonna say anything negative about Sally because I know her heart is in this, but I've heard that same argument and I don't buy it.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_06: We've got this this mystery, okay, and it seems like every time the IHL board comes out with a decision, it's been made.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_06: It's final.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_06: And I think that's where the angst comes from, is because we haven't had the updates.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_06: And I know you don't want to throw anyone under the bus, but but how do we pull information out of them?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_06: Are they afraid of the alumni?
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_06: Are they afraid of the internet mobs?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_06: I just don't know where it comes from.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_04: No, they they do operate on a model, and uh you go back to what the you know, square one.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_04: This is kind of like how we always do it, and that's you have to i in the defense of of the IHL.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_04: I again I I hate to be uh you know in in in into being argumentative about the f the facts that they do they do move slowly.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_04: They they really do.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_04: And and I've I've known this long before I was in the legislature, even I've I've I've had uh bumped up against them when I was a student.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_04: So I I I know the the way that they they they very slowly move along and and they they take their time making the decisions.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_04: And obviously there's there's this this tug of war between the the various big universities, and then there's a tug of war of all the rest of us little children that are out there, and and so it's it's it's that kind of uh argument that has gone on over the years.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_04: And at at this stage of the game, who can say that that one university is more ascendant this time in the on the board than the other universities may be ascendant at another time?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_04: So so that plays into the into the argument they all have to be sweet to each other and all that kind of thing.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_04: I think that uh I remember Speaker Newman always saying, Y'all be sweet now, boys.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, be sweet.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_04: We'd be argumentative too.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_04: And and so so the idea is that uh uh you you've you've got to work within the context of that's the way they do things.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_04: Uh at the same time, we think strongly that with a little bit of effort on our part that we could kind of nudge them a little bit toward thinking in in these in these terms.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_04: And perhaps they'll they'll they'll think to themselves, now, well, you know, it's it is time to do that right now.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_04: The legislature's coming up on a session next year in which they're they it's not to say that they're a do-nothing group, but very little gets done during the the election year in the in the legislature.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_04: So it that process will probably slow down a little bit.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_04: So there'll be some some rather good thinking about what what will have to go along the way.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_04: So so how do we how do we move this process in such a way that that we we kind of circumvent some of those those the the inertia to remain in place, so to speak, at this time.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_04: And that's that's the intent.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_04: First of all, to to bump the W and MSMS into the thinking and say that's what we need to we need to address.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_04: The W needs to have the leadership necessary, and by default, then MSMS gets gets that same help.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_04: The second thing is if we can find somebody who can to be the leader to do it, we we think we found DORS.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_04: However, we don't think so, you know, we we're not saying Sally Doty is not the person either.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_04: The point is we need we we've got some very fine candidates, so let's make our decision.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_04: Let's begin to think through that process.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_04: Let's not just slow it up.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, let's let's do something with it.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, everybody doesn't want to go to a comprehensive university.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody doesn't learn well at one of the big three schools or the big two and and then Southern Miss.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um but they they thrive better in schools, regional schools like we have now.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_03: They it's the evidence is there.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: You can prove it.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: We watched the last IHL board meeting, and you know, there's a you know, one of the things that they did, they didn't mention the W except they recognized Scott, which was very nice, and they should have done that.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: But they um I think it was Alcorn and O Miss are partnering on an economic center at Alcorn on economic development.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: And and one of the board members said, I'm look I love seeing this type of interaction between the q the colleges and and they're not competing, but they're working together.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what we should be doing, building synergy.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: We should be finding out if these other schools are struggling in some way, how can we lift them up?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the ways that people could do is to donate to them.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's one of the things I've talked about.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just the legislature.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: These universities are state-located, they are not state supported anymore.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things that people need to start doing at the W is giving to the W Foundation and giving to the MSMS Foundation because the legislators look at how many private how much private support they give.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, it's it's got to be a culmination of a lot of these things, which this that's the main reason for this group is just to try to help remind people that we've got to we've got to embrace them and not just when it's an issue like this, but all the time.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we need to always be thinking of ways to help the help it grow.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_06: Thank you for listening.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_06: To between the headlines, our special guests today have been Mr.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_06: Keith Gaskin and Mr.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_06: Bruce Hanson.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_06: Zach, three things to know.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_07: Number one, the Regions Bank Building downtown is under contract.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_07: The 40,000 square foot building at 710 Main Street has been on the market for a while with an asking price of around$1.6 million.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_07: Once the sale closes, the bank will continue to lease its current first floor location, but that leaves 30,000 square feet on the upper floors for development.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_07: Similar to a 2021 effort, he wants to include city and county leaders as well as members of the public to identify ways to make the city safer.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_07: An interest meeting is being scheduled in the coming weeks.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_07: Number three, Dolly Parton, the country music icon and transformational philanthropist, died Tuesday at age 80.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_07: In 1995, Parton launched an early childhood literacy program, which has since distributed more than 300 million books to children worldwide.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_07: In 2014, a Lowndes County affiliate of the program was founded with seed money from the dispatch.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_07: Lownds County Imagination Library has provided nearly 180,000 books to about 5,200 local children over the past 12 years.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_07: Studies show the program boosts early literacy skills.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_07: Parton said she created it as a tribute to her father, who struggled with illiteracy.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_07: Her vision will continue to impact early childhood literacy.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_07: For details, visit loungeil.org.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_06: Reach out to us.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_06: Tips at cdispatch.com.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_06: You can also follow me on Facebook or X at Dchishm Double Zero and leave a public comment.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_06: Keeping it real here in Catfish Alley Studio and Historic Downtown Columbus.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_06: Your host has been Zach Plair, and I am David Chisholm.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_06: Y'all stay friendly out there.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just a simple old country boy, but um I think that makes sense.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_04: I've stepped out and I've said what I had to say.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_06: You've been listening to Between the Headlines with Zach and David.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_06: That's what old people do.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: That is Peter Rimes, publisher of The Dispatch.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: One of our hosts of Between the Headlines is the managing editor of our newsroom.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, we try to keep news and opinions separate, but reporters have a unique insight into the workings of local government, and their analysis can be helpful for readers and listeners.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: The Dispatch remains committed to journalistic integrity, and our reporting will always reflect that.