Latest / The Vault: The Epstein Files / Mega Edition: Kathy Ruemmler And Her Epstein Related Transcript From Her Trip To Congress (Part 4-7) (11/6/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: Kathy Ruemmler And Her Epstein Related Transcript From Her Trip To Congress (Part 4-7) (11/6/26) · The Vault: The Epstein Files

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up everyone and welcome to another episode of the
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: where we left off with Kathy Rumler and her interview
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: with Congress. Question, were you shocked at all that Mr.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Epstein was granted pretty compassionate work release? Answer, I didn't
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: know anything about the circumstances of that. You know, I
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: didn't certainly. Compassionate release in law enforcement circles has a
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: particular significance. It has a very specific meaning. And it
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: typically has to do with poor health or something like that.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I didn't understand it to be anything along those lines.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: I believe that the state, you know, ultimately, this was
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: a state resolution that the federal government, you know, the
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: federal government had made a decision not to prosecute him,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: but it was a state resolution. And the inference that
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I drew as a former federal prosecutor is that they
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: reached the conclusion that he wasn't, you know, some kind
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: of threat to the community. And again, that was also
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: something that was consistent with someone who the evidence showed
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: didn't intentionally target minors for sex. So it was just
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: another factor, if you will, that again, drawing on my experience,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: suggested to me that this case was a case in
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: which he was, you know, he was a customer of
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: a prostitution customer. Question. Thank you, Mr. Emmer. We've had
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: another member join. Can he please announce himself for the record? Yeah,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Congressman Christian Menefee, Texas 18. Mr. Grant, thank you, sir. Question,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: switching gears a little bit, we're coming towards the end
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: of the first hour here. Have you ever met Ghislaine Maxwell? Answer, yes. Question,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: when did you first meet Ghislaine Maxwell? Answer, I've only
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: met her once. The context of the meeting was that
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: she was involved in civil litigation and her lawyer, there
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: was either the litigation was in New York and her lawyer,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: there was some type of proceeding in the case. And
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: as is very common in practice, her lawyer asked whether
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: she could, they could, use the conference room as a
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: professional courtesy at my law firm because her lawyer didn't
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: have an office in New York. And so when they
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: came to us to use the conference room, I went
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: by to say hello as a professional courtesy. Question, did Mr.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Epstein inform you that she would have a lawyer reaching
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: out to you? Answer, no. The lawyer had asked again,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: her lawyer, had asked whether she could use the conference
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: room at my law firm as a professional courtesy, and
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: of course I said yes. Question, and roughly when was this? Answer, gosh,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: I don't remember. I don't remember what year it was. Question,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: were you aware of Ms. Maxwell's relationship with Mr. Epstein
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: at the time? Answer, I knew that he knew her,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: and I knew that she had been the subject of
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: public allegations at the time, but I didn't know anything about,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: you know, what his relationship was with her. Question, did Mr.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Epstein discuss those public allegations of Ms. Maxwell with you? Answer,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: about Ms. Maxwell? There were, yes, insofar as they were
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: part of a set of allegations that were made by
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: a woman who said she had been victimized by Epstein
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: and many others. So they were all related to allegations
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: put forth by, you know, one victim, and the allegations
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: were extensive. Question, and did Mr. Epstein discuss those allegations
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: with you? Answer, yes. He did to the extent that
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: there were media inquiries around arising from those allegations. So
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: it was in the context of media inquiries that he,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: you know, he talked to me about it and asked
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: my point of view about it. Question. And did he
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: explain any of the details or facts to you or
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: try to make a case to you of why they
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: were or were not true? Answer. He just told me
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: that they weren't true. There wasn't quite, you know, just
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: quite unequivocally. Question. And then other than this one time Ms.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Maxwell used the office at your law firm, did you
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: have any other interaction with Ms. Maxwell? Answer, no. Question,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: any other communications? Answer, no. Question, meetings? Answer, no. Question,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: were you aware that Mr. Epstein regularly entertained young women
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: at his residences? Answer, entertained? No. Question, when around Mr. Epstein,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: how did Mr. Epstein act towards the young women or
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: girls that were around them Answer, I never saw any girls.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: I never saw any girls around them at all. If you,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: by that you mean anyone under the age of 18. Question,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: any young women at all, 20s, low 30s? Answer, well,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't refer to women in their 20s as girls,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: so I'm just trying to be precise as to language.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: I never saw anybody under the age of 18 in Mr.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Epstein's presence, with the exception of a meeting that I
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: was attending with my client and my client's, one of
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: my client's daughters. Question, did Mr. Epstein ever discuss his
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: relationship with young women in your presence? Answer, he did
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: not discuss his relationship with women. I knew he had
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: a girlfriend that I had met on one or two
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: occasions when I went to his townhouse for meetings and
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: his girlfriend was the same girlfriend for the entire period
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: of time that I knew him. I didn't ask how
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: old she was, but to my eyes, she looked about 30. Question,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: and who was that girlfriend? Answer, her name was Karinia.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I can't remember her last name. Question. Did you ever
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: witness Mr. Epstein engage at any sexual contact? Answer. Absolutely not. Question.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein have sexual contact of
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: any kind with any young woman or girl? Answer. No. Question.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein sexually abuse or assault
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: young women or girls? Answer. No. Question. Did Mr. Epstein
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: ever discuss sexual acts of any kind with you? Answer. No. Mr. Fishman,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: except for what she's already described. Ms. Rumler jumps in,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: except for the historical conduct that led to his guilty
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: plea in Florida. Mr. Grant understood. Question. Did you ever
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: witness Mr. Epstein receive a massage from a young woman
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: or a girl? Answer, no. Question. Did you ever witness Mr.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Epstein pay women for massages? Answer, no. Question. Question. Did
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: you ever witness Mr. Epstein giving cash to young women
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: or girls? Answer, no. Question, did you ever hear about Mr.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Epstein receiving massages? Answer, no. Other than what we previously
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: talked about, the conduct arising to his that gave rise
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: to the guilty plea. Question, did Mr. Epstein ever discuss
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: getting massages? Answer, no. Other than, again, what he told
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: me about the conduct that caused him, that forced him
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: to plead guilty in 2008. Question. Did you ever receive
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: a massage from any young woman or girl brought to
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: you by or introduced to you by Mr. Epstein? Answer.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Question. Have you ever been contacted by any
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: law enforcement agency concerning Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell? Answer. No. Question.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Have you ever been interviewed by any law enforcement agency
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: concerning Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell? Answer. No. Question. Have
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: you ever provided any information to law enforcement agencies concerning
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell? Answer, no. Question. Did Jeffrey
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Epstein ever inform you or represent to you that he
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: was working with intelligence services of any nation, including the
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: United States? Answer, no. Question. Did Ghislaine Maxwell ever inform
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: you or represent to you that she was working with
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: any intelligence service of any nation, including the United States? Answer, no. Question.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: During your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell, did
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: you ever suspect either of them being affiliated with any
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: intelligence agency? Answer. I had no relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: The answer to both of them is no. Question. And
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: at any time, have you had an affiliation with any
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: intelligence agency? Answer. Well, by affiliation, I was White House
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: counsel and a senior Justice Department official. In that capacity,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: I dealt with the DNI, the CIA, and the NSA. N.D.O.D. Question,
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: but did you formally work? Answer, Senate Intelligence Committee, House
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: Intelligence Committee. Question, did you not formally work for any
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: of those agencies? Answer, I did not, no. Now Mr.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Grant jumps in and announces that there's another member of
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Congress that has joined the party. That member? Yasemin Ansari. Mr. Grant,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: thank you, and that will conclude our first hour. Redacted,
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: let's go back to the record. Now it's Jasmine Crockett
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: piping in, and for the purposes of the record, Representative
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Jasmine Crockett, Texas 30, is present. Mr. Lynch, could you
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: please introduce yourself for the record? Sure, Congressman Steve Lynch,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: 8th Congressional District of Massachusetts. Mr. Redacted, I just have
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: one note before we begin. To the extent that any
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: of our questions or your answers contain the names of
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: survivors or their identifying information, we would ask that the
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: majority redact that information prior to releasing the transcripts publicly.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: And with that, let's get started. Question by redacted. So, Ms. Rumler,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: in the majority's first hour, you talked a bit about
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: attending Mr. Epstein's 2019 arraignment and hearing the charges and
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: learning about those charges in the indictment. Do you remember
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: what those charges were? Answer, I do. In general, it
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: was conspiracy to engage in sex trafficking. I believe it
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: was two counts. One was conspiracy count, and the second
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: one was, you know, what we would call a substantive
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: count of sex trafficking. And in particular, the indictment alleged
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: that Epstein had enticed and recruited minors, minor girls, for
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: sex in exchange for cash. Question, do you recall what
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: he used to entice or recruit those minors? Answer, well,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: not specifically. I don't remember that the indictment was specific
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: in that regard. You know, typically for a federal indictment,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: there would need to be some instrumentality of interstate commerce. So,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: you know, a phone call, you know, an email or
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: something like that. So that certainly would have been present,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: you know, in some respect. Question. And at the arraignment
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: you were at, the government told the court that Mr.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Epstein's victims were, quote, initially recruited to provide massages to
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: the defendant, which would be performed nude or partially nude.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: would become increasingly sexual in nature, and would typically include
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: one or more sex acts. Does that sound familiar? Answer.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: That's consistent with my understanding of what the charges were, yes.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: If I don't remember those specific words, yes. Question by Mr. Redacted.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: I'll now introduce Minority Exhibit A, which is a February
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: 2016 email between you and Mr. Epstein. Answer. Yes. Question. Mr.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Epstein asked you, quote, We all set for a day
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: of joy? Answer, yes. Question, can you read for the
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: record what you responded to Mr. Epstein? Answer, yes, I
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: said best massage ever, but not your kind of massage.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: And he replied, shame. Answer, yeah. Question, by February 2016,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: were you aware that Mr. Epstein had used massage appointments
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: to entrap girls and women that he victimized? Answer, what
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: I understood, you know, as I stated this morning. Question. Question.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Let's pause for a second. And that's where we're going
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: to pause as well. And in the next episode, dealing
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: with the issue, we're going to pick up where we
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: left off. All the information that goes with this episode
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone?
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're diving right back in to the Kathy
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Rumler interview with Congress. Mr. Lynch, I'm sorry. I just
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: want to understand. Are we going to see the exhibits?
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Miss Crockett, I was just going to ask, do you
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: mind speaking up just a little bit? Miss Rumler, oh, sure. Crockett,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: you kind of faded off towards the end of your
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: last statement. Rumler, okay, no problem, absolutely. Redacted, we'll go
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: back on the record. Miss Rumler, okay, so as I
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: was saying, I was certainly aware that he had pled
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: guilty to prostitution-related offenses that involved sexualized massages. I knew that.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: He was open to me, with me about it, or
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: so I believed about the nature of his conduct, as
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: I discussed at some length this morning. So, what I
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: was making here was an offhanded joke. Certainly, sitting here,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: in 2026, is in extraordinarily poor taste. But it was
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: a joke about his prior criminal history. Redacted, question, so
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: when you wrote, best massage ever, but not your kind
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: of massage, you were referring to how he used massage
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: to entice his victims? Answer, no, that's not what I'm
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: saying at all. Again, as we discussed at length this morning.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: I understood that the conduct that Mr. Epstein had engaged in,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: as stated by Ms. Thacker in the letter to the
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Deputy Attorney General, was that Mr. Epstein was in essence
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: a customer or a John, okay? Taking a step back
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: for a second, I had been a prosecutor in the D.C. U.S.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Attorney's Office, and as a young, you know, prosecutor in
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: that office, she gets cut off, question, before we take
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: a step back, let's take a step forward. Answer, okay. Question,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: what kind of massage were you referring to? Answer for me,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: question when you wrote, best massage ever, but not your
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: kind of massage, to Jeffrey Epstein. What was his kind
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: of massage? Answer, let me explain the context of this email. Epstein,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: had I believed, as a holiday Christmas gift, had given
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: me a half-day spa at the Peninsula Hotel, okay? And
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: that's what he's referring, when he's saying, we all set
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: for a day of joy. He's saying, are you going
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: to have a nice day at the Peninsula Spa? where
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: I was able to, you know, pick up, again, it
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: was a gift, I was able to pick up or
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: pick whatever I wanted to do at the Peninsula Spa,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: which is a lovely place in New York. Question, that's right,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: your emails. The emails between Mr. Epstein and his assistant,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Leslie Groff, they call it Kathy Rumler's Pampered Weekend. And then, Ms. Groff,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: and you email, and you told Ms. Groff, quote, Jeffrey's
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: so thoughtful, as always, so yes. Answer, okay, so yes.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: And so he then asked me, basically, you know, are
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: you all set to go have a, you know, nice
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: day at the spa, essentially? Question, a day of joy. Answer,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: a day. And so then after I go to the spa,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: so it's the following day. I'd gone on a Saturday.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: I believe I went on a Saturday morning. And so
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I wrote back and said, you know, best massage ever.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Meaning I had a very nice massage at the spa.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: And I said, but not your kind of massage. Yes,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: that was a joke to him about the fact. that
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: he had engaged in the crime of prostitution where the act, again,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: as I understood it, was that he paid women to
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: give him sexualized massages. Now, what I wanted to say,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: taking a step back, so again, as I stated, I
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: wish I had never met Jeffrey Epstein. I wish I'd
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: never dealt with the guy. It was a mistake to
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: deal with him. I wish I certainly wish I'd never
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: emailed with him. And sitting here, you know, 10 years later,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: in light of everything we know now, this is a
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: joke where I'm using humor to basically, again, sort of
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: call him out on the fact that he had this conviction.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: And it's in poor taste. But, when I was, when
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: I was a prosecutor, and I was doing prostitution cases
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: at this, in this period of time, so this, when
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I was doing prostitution cases, it would have been, you know, 2001, 2002.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: In the District of Columbia, the crime of prostitution is
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the agreement between an individual who is seeking sex and
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: someone who is willing to provide sex for money. The
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: crime is the agreement, okay? And we were instructed, it was,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: you know, the policy of the office at the time,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: that because the crime was the agreement, that both the john,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: and I'm using the law enforcement terms, the john and
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the prostitute, were both prosecuted. They were prosecuted equally. Question,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: can a minor be a prostitute? Answer, absolutely not. Question,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: you told Jeffrey Epstein that? Answer, absolutely not. Question, at
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: least on one occasion, is that right? Answer, under the law,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: a minor, United States law, A minor cannot consent to prostitution. Yes,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: I agree with you entirely. Question. You mentioned this letter
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: from a lawyer, Thacker, that you refer to a lot. Answer, yes. Question. Well,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about that later. But the letter references massages,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know, 18 times. It recounts allegation after allegation
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: of how Mr. Epstein used massage to entice victims. Answer, yes. Question.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: So that's more than just Jeffrey Epstein paying for sex
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: one time in 2007, right? Answer, oh, I have never
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: suggested that I believed he had to pay for sex
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: for one time. Question, so then, were you? So, what
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: were you referring to? Were you referring to the full
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: range of his alleged conduct that you were aware of? Answer,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: this was an offhand remark. I certainly wasn't referring to
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: the full range of conduct, you know, in a one sentence,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: offhand joke. That, as I've said, to you sitting here today,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: was in very poor taste. Question, did you think one
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: of the issues here He bought you this massage. This
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: was not the first or last massage that he had
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: bought you, nor was it the only time you discussed
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: massages with him. So given what you knew then, why
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: did you accept any massages from Jeffrey Epstein? Answer. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Question.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: She gets cut off. And why were you joking about
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: it and what you did with him? Answer. He gave
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: me a gift. Okay, so he gave me a gift.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: a half day at the spa at the Peninsula Hotel
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: in New York City. I think I also got a
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: facial that day. I don't remember. But in any event,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: when I go to the spa, which I have gone
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: to many, many times over the course of my life,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: and I've gone to spa resorts, a lot of women
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: go to spas, and in 99% of those cases, I've
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: paid for my own massage. As a gift, he gave
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: me a half day at Peninsula Spa, and I got
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: a massage. That is what this is. Question is, You
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: knew he was a registered sex offender at the time, right? Answer, yes. Question,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: so why were you accepting gifts of massages from a
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: registered sex offender whose offense is including getting massages? Answer,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: I can't even follow the logic of your question. Mr. Redacted,
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: what part don't you understand? Ms. Rumler, I don't understand.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: I don't understand the question. Mr. Redacted, do you want
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: me to repeat the question differently? Question, did you ever
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: think of his underage victims at any point and think, hey,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to accept a massage from Jeffrey Epstein,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: or I'm not going to joke about Jeffrey Epstein's history
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: of massage, and I'm not even going to talk about massage.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: with Jeffrey Epstein. Answer, as I said, I didn't accept
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: a massage from Jeffrey Epstein. He bought me as a
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: gift a day at a very well-established hotel spa in
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: New York City, and I accepted it because, as I stated,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: he was a primary advisor to a client of mine.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: There was no reason not to accept it, It was
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: a nice gesture, and I accepted it. Question, let's move on. Answer,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: it's not more complicated than that. Question, so the 2019
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: indictment at the arraignment, the government said that Mr. Epstein
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: engaged in a years-long scheme to sexually abuse underage girls,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: paying minor girls to themselves be abused, and also paying
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: certain victims to recruit other girls to be subject to
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: the defendant's sexual abuse. Rumler, Minority Exhibit B. Let's introduce
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: as Minority Exhibit B, an email exchange between you and Mr.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Epstein from September 19th, 2014. In it, Mr. Epstein wrote, quote, girls, careful,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I will renew an old habit. Answer, yes, I see that. Question,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: we've already established that you were aware of the allegations
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: against Mr. Epstein because you had read the Thacker letter
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: at this point. Did you consider whether Mr. Epstein was
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: referring to his past crimes? Involving young girls when he
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: said girls? Careful, I will renew an old habit. Answer, okay,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: first of all, I don't know whether I had read
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: the Thacker letter in September of 2014. I had, you know,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I'd only met with Mr. Epstein, I think twice at
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: that point. So just to put that into characterization in
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: proper context. But I remember this email very, notwithstanding it
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: was 12 years ago. I remember this email very specifically.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: And during either the first or second meeting that I
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: had with Epstein in the course of the conversation, and
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: it may have actually been in reference to, reference to me,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: he referred to women as girls, okay? And I said
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: to him, don't refer to women as girls. Unfortunately, I'm
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: now 55 years old and I've been, you know, a
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: practicing lawyer for a long time. And I've been referred
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: to as a girl by many men in many contexts.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: And I said, don't do that. And so I write,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: most girls do not have to worry about that crap.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: I'm basically in my email referring back to that conversation, okay? Like, hey, knucklehead,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: I'm referring to myself here. Most girls don't have to
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: worry about this crap. Then he responds, girls, question mark, careful,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: I will renew an old habit. Question, so it was
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: something of an inside joke between the two of you? Answer,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: about language? Question, got it. Question, alright, let's move on
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: to Minority Exhibit C. This is Bates number, EFTA, 025-10803.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: This is a March 4th, 2015 email exchange. And the
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: portion I'd like to talk to you about is on
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: page one. Mr. Fishman, can you give us a minute?
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Take us while to get down to the table. Redacted,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: do you see what you wrote to him? Darling, I
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: am not one of your young things. Ms. Rumler, yes,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: I do. Question, what were you referring to? Mr. Fishman,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: do you mind if she looks at the whole document first? Redacted, absolutely, Rumler.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: So the context here is that I was doing a
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: lot of international travel in the course of my law practice.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: And I can tell you, I can tell you from
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the context here that I had just landed in China
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: because I say I had a loner BlackBerry that makes
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: outgoing calls. So as any member of the room who
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: has traveled to China knows, that's typically the protocol that
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: you would use when traveling to China. And he again,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: in very typical fashion, I'm complaining about the fact that
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: I'm tired from all the travel. and he patronizingly tells
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: me that I can figure out a way to travel better.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Question by redacted, and then you reply, answer, and then
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: I reply again, in sort of a snarky way, you know,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: I'm not one of your young things. Remember, he had
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: his girlfriend was probably 15 years younger than me at
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: that time, and said, I've been doing this for 20 years,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: and despite well-honed skills, it still sucks. Question, so there
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: was his girlfriend, but you said you're young things. So answer, well,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: he also had, he also had staff, you know, several
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: women in their, you know, late twenties, early thirties who
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: were on his staff, who traveled with him. And so
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: basically saying, don't again, don't mansplain me. I'm cranky. Again,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: he's asking for something. He wants me to call him
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: or something. And I just landed in China where I
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: probably didn't want to be. Question. What do you remember
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: about those staff? Answer. Pardon. Question. The staff you just mentioned,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: what do you remember about them? Answer, I remember that
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: he had quite a large staff and he had, you know,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: women and men on his staff and he had some assistants,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: personal assistants. Question, do you know if all the women
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: on his staff were American? Were any of them foreign? Answer,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: some of them were Russian and Eastern European, yes. All right, folks,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: we're going to wrap up right here. And in the
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: next episode, we're going to pick up where we left off.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: All the information that goes with this episode can be
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: found in the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: we're picking up where we left off with the Kathy
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Rumler conversation with Congress. Question, all right, let's introduce Minority
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Exhibit D, Bates number EFTA A-0239-5303. This is a June
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: 2016 email exchange between you, and Mr. Epstein regarding a
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: possible opportunity for you with a hedge fund called Citadel.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: In this exchange, Mr. Epstein suggested that Citadel CEO Ken Griffin, quote,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: might just be interested in a woman. You responded, quote,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: oh Jesus, meaning you're going to trade one of your
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Russians for my comp, end quote. What did you mean by, quote,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: one of your Russians? Answer, I think I'm looking at
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: a different email exchange. Ms. Cotton, yeah, I think you
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: skipped some lines or we have the wrong version. Miss Rumler,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: we have a different version of the email. Redacted, let's
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: go off record for a second. Back on record now.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: What did you mean by quote, one of your Russians? Mr.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Fishman again. Do you mind if she reads the entire chain? Question, absolutely. Rumler, okay.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: The context of this is that I received outreach from
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: the soon-to-be retiring chief legal officer of Citadel about whether
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: I'd be willing to take a meeting about potentially accepting
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: that job. I didn't know anything about Citadel, frankly. You know,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: I'd spent the vast majority of my career in public
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: service at this point. And I certainly wasn't, at this
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: point in time, I certainly wasn't like a Wall Street person.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: And so Epstein was the finance guy. He was like
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: the Wall Street guy. So I asked him, you know,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: what do you, I asked him, I infer from this
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: email over the phone, what do you know about Citadel?
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: And again, in typical Epstein fashion, he immediately jumps into,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: I can negotiate your compensation. So I didn't ask him.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: I didn't have an offer from Citadel. And he's already
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: talking about how he's going to negotiate my compensation. Question.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: That's clear. He's jumping into the talks about helping you
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: hypothetically get this job at Citadel and negotiating your compensation. Answer. No, no,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: he's not. No, no, no. Question. Why did you say
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: one of your Russians? Mr. Fishman, I'm sorry. Question. What
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: do you mean by one of your Russians? Fishman jumps
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: in again. She's giving an answer. And you then made
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: a statement about what was in the emails. She's entitled
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: to answer, to respond. Redacted, well, let's just ask the question.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: What did you mean when you wrote one of your Russians? Answer, again,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: he wasn't. I wasn't asking him to help me get
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: a job, okay? I was asking him what he knew
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: about the firm. He then immediately jumps into what? That
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: he can negotiate a compensation package, which I haven't even
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: been offered. And so I then deflect and say, trust me,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: This is way below his and your pay grade to
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: be negotiating. And so he then says, there is the
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: off chance that Griffin might just be interested in a woman.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: I understand him to be referring that he was interested
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: in a woman for the position of chief legal officer.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: I found that offensive. So I make again a casual,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: somewhat irreverent remark by saying, I ain't no affirmative action.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: So I found it frankly insulting. that someone would suggest
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: that I was being offered a job purely because I
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: was a woman. So then he writes back and says,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: I meant romantically. So I think, I think that he's
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: suggesting that somehow this person wants to date me. And
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: so again, which is also offensive, by the way. So again,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I deflect and say, so you're going to trade one
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: of your Russians, meaning one of your adult Russian assistants,
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: who you're going to set up on a date. This
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: has nothing to do with sex. This has, this is,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: a confused back and forth where again, he was insinuating
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: himself into a way that he was going to make
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: himself relevant about negotiating compensation for a job offer that
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: I didn't have and I wasn't going to take. Question,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: so you were just saying that you were making a joke,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: an offhand joke about Mr. Epstein trading one of his
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Russian assistants to Ken Griffin in exchange for your compensation? Answer, yeah. Question, okay. Answer,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: and as I said, I regret emailing him. This is
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: a joke that certainly doesn't land very well today. Question,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: all right, we're going to cover some ground that the
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: majority covered. The way that these formats go, sometimes our
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: questions overlap. We'll be conscious of that. Answer, okay. Question,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: let's go back to that arrest and the phone call. Answer, okay, okay. Question,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein called three people. Answer, yes. Question, two of
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: his lawyers. Answer, yes. Question, and you. Answer, yes. Question,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: why do you think he called you? Answer, I think
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: he called me because, not to be modest, but I
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: was the chairperson of the defense and investigations practice at
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: one of the largest, most profitable law firms in the world.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: I was well regarded as a defense attorney, and I
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: think that's why he called me. And obviously I knew him. Question,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: earlier that year you had written, you quote, I only
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: trust you. Later then, that he said, quote, I only
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: trust your advice. Mr. Fishman, I'm sorry, are you reading
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: from the documents? Redacted, we'll introduce those documents right now
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: as Exhibit E. Those documents are Bates number, EFTA. 0-2-6-3-4-2-2-2,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: and EFTA 0-2-6-3-4-7-5-8. Mr. Fishman, we just have one of
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: them so far. Redacted, front and back. Rumler, oh, I see. Fishman, okay. Question,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: there are two different documents as one exhibit. Fishman, oh, okay,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: so they're not connected to each other in that way. Redacted, no. Fishman, okay. Question,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: So Jeffrey Epstein called you because he trusted you. Is
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: that what you're saying? Answer, I don't know whether he
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: trusted me or not, but I can say, I can
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: tell you, I think I'm a good lawyer who gives
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: pretty straightforward advice. Question, just so I'm clear, did you
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: give him any advice on that call after he was arrested? Answer, no. Question,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: did he ask for your help? Answer again, I don't
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: remember much about that call other than it was extremely short.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: He told me that he'd been arrested. And I said,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: either you have to call your lawyer or I assume...
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: you had called your lawyer. Something I don't recall whether,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: you know, he said that he had already, or he hadn't,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: you know, this or that. Question, before Mr. Epstein was arrested,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: had he communicated with you about being concerned about new
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: criminal charges being brought against him? Answer, no. Question, not
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: at all. Answer, he had not. Question, Mr. Epstein was
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: arrested at Teterboro Airport. He'd flown back from Paris on
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: a private jet. Had you known he was aboard? Answer,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: I don't remember whether I knew. I do remember. I
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: do remember knowing that his arrest happened at Teterboro Airport.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know whether he told me that or whether
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: I came to learn that later. Question, and before he
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: returned from Paris, did he ask you your advice about
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: whether it was safe to come back to the U.S.? Answer, no. Question,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: in 2019, did he ever ask your advice about whether
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: it was safe to travel to any foreign country? Answer, no.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: He didn't ask my advice on those things. Question, he
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: never asked about your advice on whether it was safe
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: to return to the u.s at any point in 2019
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: answer not that i remember question let's do exhibit f
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: this is february 23rd 2019 email between you and mr
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: epstein mr epstein writes you like preparing for a hurricane
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: i'm focused on how to protect myself hunkered down but
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: vigilant well prepared etc i very much appreciate our friendship
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: In response, you wrote, quote, me too. We will get
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: you through this storm. Answer, yes. Question, what was the, quote,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: storm you told them you were going to get them through? Answer,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: that was a reference to the media storm. Question, the media.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Two days before that, a court ruling had put his
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: 2007 non-prosecution agreement in jeopardy in a case brought by
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: a number of his victims asserting their rights under the CVRA,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: the Crimes Victims Act. You don't think this email had
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: any reference to that? Answer, I don't remember whether. I
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: was certainly aware of that litigation in Florida, and I
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: was aware of the legal issues that were presented to
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: the court in that case, yes. I don't know, but this,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: my best recollection, is that this related to a media storm. Question,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: and who did you mean when you wrote we when
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: you wrote we will get you through the storm? Answer,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: I tend to use the term we in all sorts
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: of different contexts. So I think I was my effort
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: to express, you know, some empathy and support to him
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: at the time. As I stated earlier, what I understood
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: all through the period of time when I was interacting
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: with him, up until the time that the indictment was
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: returned in July of 2019, I understood that his conduct
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: was predated by knowing him by at least a decade,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: and had been extensively investigated by state and federal prosecutors,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: and had been finally resolved. And so in our system
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: of justice, typically, when someone resolves a criminal case through
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: a guilty plea, and or in this case, a separate
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: agreement with the federal government, and they comply with it,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: and they otherwise fulfill all the obligations, they accept responsibility,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: and they are entitled to reenter society. That's the way
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: it works. And so that's what I believe the situation
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: was with Mr. Epstein for the entirety of the time
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: that I was dealing with him. Again, up until he
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: was indicted in July of 2019. And then the conduct
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: described in that indictment, even though it predated me, knowing
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: him by 10 years, described conduct that was very different
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: than I had understood him to have been involved in. Question.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: So back to the email. You said you understood the
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: storm to be referring to negative media? Answer. That's right. Question.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Had you been working with anyone else to help Mr.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Epstein deal with the negative media? Answer. Mr. Epstein's MO
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: was to ask a lot of different people for their
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: opinions on things. Question. That is very evident from the emails.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: But what about, were you working with anyone to help Mr.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Epstein deal with negative media? Answer. Do you mean like
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: communication specialist or someone like that? I'm not sure what
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: you mean. Question, you know Mr. Epstein much better than
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: the rest of us. You knew what you were doing
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: and who you were talking with much better than the
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: rest of us. So were you working with anyone to
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: help Mr. Epstein with his negative media? Answer, he asked
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: my opinion about media, about, you know, media inquiries, media
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: issues from time to time. And he was represented by
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: counsel and the counsel was his legal advisor. Ultimately, any
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: decisions that were made about responses to media inquiries, etc.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: were going to be decided by his lawyer, not by me.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: But as he did with lots of people, he asked
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: my point of view and my opinion on stuff all
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: the time, including relating to his media issues. And with that,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: we'll pause. Question, and I believe some other members have questions. Ms. Ansari, sure.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here today. As has
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: been discussed through the both hours so far, you maintained
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: a friendship with Epstein for years. What do you think
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: your biggest mistake in maintaining that relationship and staying so
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: close to a known predator, and why did you not
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: cut ties with him sooner? Miss Rumler, I know him professionally,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: and I was friendly with him in that context. We
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: were not social friends. I didn't socialize with him. I
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: didn't travel with him. I didn't go on vacation with him.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: I didn't go to concerts with him. I didn't go
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: out to dinner with him. So when you say I
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: had a longstanding friendship, I would characterize it a bit differently.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Those are the types of things that I do with
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: my friends. Mr. Epstein and I shared a client, and
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: so I had a lot of interaction with him relating
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: to that. And of course, the interaction and just the natural,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: you know, course of life went into other topics, including
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: topics relating to his historical conviction and media attention arising
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: from that historical conviction. At the time, when I was
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: interacting with him, he had a broad set of relationships
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: with many prominent people in the business community, in academia, in,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: you know, the arts and entertainment and politics. And it
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: was very natural for me to maintain good interaction with him,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: given what I was doing professionally at the time. And again, importantly,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: as he was, you know, a primary advisor to a
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: client that had been referred to me in the very,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: you know, just few weeks after I had, you know,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: gone back into private practice to restart my private practice.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: And so, of course, with someone who I wanted to
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: maintain a good relationship with. Miss Sensari, okay, but even
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: at the time, he was a known predator. You knew that.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: You knew of his record. Obviously, ultimately, we know that
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Epstein and Maxwell, who I heard you say you didn't
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: know personally, committed systemic abuse against more than 1,000 young girls,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: as well as boys and men. I guess, how do
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: you begin to express remorse for cultivating those ties, even
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: if they were strictly professional? and not a personal relationship
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: as you just laid out. Ms. Rumler, while I certainly didn't, again,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: know what we know now about the nature and scope
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: of his conduct, that's the first and foremost. But it's
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: very important to understand that, you know, as a lawyer
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: in private practice, in my area of expertise, my primary
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: area of expertise was representing people who were either accused
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: of crimes or accused of other wrongdoing. So that was,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: that was very much part, or sort of, you know,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: my daily existence, if you will. I certainly feel terrible
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: for anybody who this man victimized. Miss Ansari, have you
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: ever met with any of the victims or survivors? Rumler,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: I have not. Miss Ansari, is there a reason not to?
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Miss Rumler, I have not been asked to. Miss Ansari, okay. Question.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: And as I said before, he lied to me. He
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: lied to me about his conduct. He lied to me.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: He led me to believe. And again, it wasn't just
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: that I believed him. What he said, you know, on
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: its face. But what he said again was all very
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: consistent with the way the investigation in Florida by both
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: state and federal authorities had been resolved. Ms. Ansari, thank you.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: All right, we're going to wrap up right here. And
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: to pick up where we left off. All the information
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: that goes with this episode can be found in the
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: dive right back in To the Kathy Rumler transcript. from
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: her trip to Congress. Mr. Submaranium, I may have missed this,
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: but were you ever Jeffrey Epstein was never a legal
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: client of yours in any way? Miss Rumler, he was not. Question.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: So you never had any kind of agreement with him
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: or an engagement? Answer, I did not. Question, did you
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: ever receive any compensation from him? Answer, no. Question, did
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: you ever receive any cash from him or any transfer,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: money transfer from him? Just gifts? Answer, yeah, I did
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: receive gifts from him, but I did not receive compensation. Question,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: but not any money from him. And then, did you ever,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: you weren't representing him, but did you ever attend any
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: of his court proceedings? Answer, as we discussed, I was present,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: you know, as a member of the public at his
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: arraignment in July of 2019. Question, thank you, and apologies
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: if this has already been asked, but the reason for
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: that was because of your friendship. Or was there a
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: reason for you attending that? Answer, the reason was this
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: is someone that I had dealt with over, you know,
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: the prior period. I mean, the prior, you know, five-year period.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: And he was, he was, and remained at the time, well,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: up until that time, a primary advisor in for an
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: important client of mine. And I wanted to understand exactly,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to understand what was going on
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: and what he was charged with and what the conduct was.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: And I anticipated that my client would also want to
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: understand that. Question, do you believe he ever used the
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: relationship you had with him? You know, it's not a friendship,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: I guess a business relationship perhaps, when reaching out to
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: other people. We've heard from other folks that he would
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: use a name, name drop essentially. Do you feel that
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: that happened to you? Answer, I didn't know that at
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: the time, but I know now because I've seen, you know,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: references and documents that have been released where he name
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: drops me. But I didn't know he was doing it
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: at the time. Question, and I apologize if this was
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: already asked, but were you aware that you were designated
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: as an executor of his estate? Answer, I learned that
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: later that I was listed as a backup executor. Question,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: did you consent to that in any way? Answer, I
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: didn't know about it. Question, okay, so there was never
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: a conversation about this? Answer, with Epstein? Question, or anyone? Answer,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: I don't remember having a conversation with Epstein about it.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: I was surprised when I saw the document when it
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: was released last year. Question, have you done anything with
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: his estate? Gets cut off by Rumler, no. Association? Answer, no. Question,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: when was your name removed? Answer, I don't know exactly,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: but that was in a draft. That was, you know,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: a draft document, and the final document does not I'm
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: not identified. Question, when did you learn about your name
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: being an executor? Rumler, again, I believe the document was
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: provided to this committee and then made public, I believe
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: in 2025. Question, do you have any sort of speculation
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: as to why your name or you were named as
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: an executor? Answer, my only speculation is that I'm a
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: lawyer and I think someone who believed to be an
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: honest person. Question, okay, that's all I have. Question redacted.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: Did you ask to be taken off the will? Answer no. Mr.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Menifee asking questions now. Good afternoon. I was kind of
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: struck by your statement here that you and Mr. Epstein
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: only had a professional relationship. You know, since I've been
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: sitting here, we've seen a number of emails in 2014
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: where he says to you, girl, careful, I will review
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: an old habit. In 2015, where you say to him, darling,
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: I'm not one of your things. In 2016, where he
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: says that Griffin... may be interested in women, and you say,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: I ain't no affirmative action, so that's an unprofessional way
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: of having a conversation. He says, I meant romantically, and
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: you reference Russians? And then it all culminates in 2019
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: when he says, I very much appreciate your friendship. So
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: your statement here today is that you all weren't friends? Rumler, no,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: I didn't say that. I said I knew him professionally,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: and I say friendly in that context. But the foundation
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: of my dealings with him were, was that I was
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: a lawyer in private practice. And that's why he dealt
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: with me. And that's why I dealt with him. And
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: in that context, I was friendly with him. And I
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: believe this effort to or attempt to create a binary construct,
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: you're either friends or you're a professional, is just not
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: real life. And there are, you know, you probably you're
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: working with other members as a professional relationship, but you're
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: probably friendly with them too. And that's the way it
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: was with him. But again, I didn't have a number
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: of personal friends who I spend time with on the weekends.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: We go out to dinner. We go to concerts. We
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: might go on vacation. We might go to a spa together.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: And those are the people who I count as my friends.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: So I've tried to be as precise and descriptive as
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: I can about really the nature of my interactions in
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: dealing with them. Mr. Menefee, so more of a hybrid situation.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: I practiced at a large law firm too. I never
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: called anybody darling in a communication. So this would be
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: more of a hybrid situation where maybe not completely professional,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: maybe not completely personal. Answer. What I would say is
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I was friendly. You know, I knew him professionally. I
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: was friendly with him. And, you know, with respect, you
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: may not like the words I used. And as I
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: said before, I regret it that I even knew this guy,
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: much less was emailing with him. But I tend to
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: be a pretty casual person. I sometimes am a bit irreverent.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: I'm sometimes a bit sarcastic. And those references that you're
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: pointing to are an example of that. Mr. Menefee, I'm
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: introducing what's marked as Minority Exhibit G. It begins with
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Bates number EFTA 02610779. And we have copies that are
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: being passed around now. Bottom of page 1, going into
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: page 2. And this is an email from you, dated
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: December 16th, 2018. The subject line is, My edited version.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Am I capturing that correctly? Answer, yes. Question, so it
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: looks like that you edited a draft written article written
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: by Mr. Epstein's lawyer, Ken Starr. Is that this? Answer,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: I don't recall who drafted, who drafted this originally, but
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: I was asked to look at it. But again, I
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: believe this was something that was going to be provided
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: in response to media. It was a media response, and
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: I was asked to look at it to either provide
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: my thoughts or Question, so EFTA 02610779 reflects a statement
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: for Mr. Epstein's benefit that you edited. Answer, it was,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: what I understand, that was being contemplated here was that,
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: I don't remember the specifics, but there were allegations in
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: the media that Mr. Epstein had received the so-called sweetheart
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: deal in Florida arising, you know, from the federal and
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: state prosecutions. And so this was contemplated by the media
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: response that would be ultimately signed or authored by his attorney.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Of which, who? I was not one. Mr. Menefee questioned,
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: so can we look down at the bottom of page two?
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: The last full paragraph. So the second to last paragraph
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: on the page there, the second to last sentence starts
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: with Jeffrey accepted full responsibility for his conduct. Do you
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: see that? Answer, I do. Question, okay, the last sentence
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: on the page. For over 10 years, that being Mr. Epstein,
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: has lived a good and law-abiding life. Do you see that? Answer,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: I do. Question, turn the page. The final paragraph we're
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: looking at, the third sentence, it begins with, but Jeffrey,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: an exemplary employer, do you see that? Answer, I do. Question,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: so were you trying to change the public's perception of Mr.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Epstein in this document? Answer, no, again. What this was,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: was something that had been drafted by one of Mr.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: Epstein's lawyers to respond to suggestions in the media at
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: the time that Mr. Epstein had received the so-called Sweetheart
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Deal in Florida, and that the reason, what I recall
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: during this time, is that the media implication, or actually
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: the media assertion, was that the Sweetheart Deal was the
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: result of something of undue influence or some type of corruption.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: And this was intended to be a response authored by
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: his lawyers who were involved in that very resolution. setting
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: forth the facts as they understood it. And I was
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: not involved in that investigation in any way, shape, or form.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: And I was just asked to read it and give
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: my thoughts for, sort of, tone and style. Question, but
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: as you sent this back, did you believe at the
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: time that Mr. Epstein had accepted full responsibility for his
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: conduct and that he had lived a good and law-abiding
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: life in the preceding 10 years? Answer, at the time, yeah,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: that's what I understood. Question, do you believe that today? Answer,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: today we have a very different understanding. And again, what
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: I know is what he indicated in July of 2019
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: and that those prosecutors had presented evidence to a grand jury.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: The allegations were not proven, but they certainly presented evidence
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: to a grand jury and a grand jury agreed that
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: there was evidence that he had intentionally enticed and recruited
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: minors for commercial sex. That is a very different, very
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: different set of allegations and I understood he had that
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: there was evidence of when he resolved his case in Florida. Question? Okay. Mr. Lynch,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: let's pick up right there. However, as you indicated earlier,
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: you know of Mr. Epstein's offenses. He was a registered
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: sex offender from those previous offenses. Ms. Rumler, that's right.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: Question by Mr. Lynch, which are very, very serious. One
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: of the other aspects of this, again, focusing on your
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: relationship with Jeffrey Epstein during the investigation, we find people
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: who are very, very close to Jeffrey Epstein, friends, indeed, co-workers,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: who work several feet from him, Yet when they come
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: before the panel, they didn't know him. He was a stranger.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: And you know, reading all these emails, as my colleagues
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: have already identified, you know, the references to you calling
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: him darling, Uncle Jeffrey, sweetie, and then, which would indicate,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: a much closer relationship. And also, you may call it humor.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: But dismissing his offenses by saying, referring to Jeffrey's type
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: of massage, which refers back to his abuse of those
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: younger women, for which he was a registered sex offender,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: there's a connection there. As well as when you sort
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: of dismiss, you dismiss those offenses by joking about it.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: You know, joking about the Russians or your young things
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: or victims rights my ass. Sort of dismissing the attorneys
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: and the legal team who are trying to defend the
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: accusers and the victims. Is that the way that you
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: gained his trust? Answer, I appreciate that question. And I
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: understand why, you know, sitting here today in 2026, the
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: emails could come across as if there's a callousness to
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: the victims. That's not what I intended at the time.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: And it wasn't my state of mind at the time.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: I feel terrible that he victimized women and girls. And
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: you know, if I could have done anything, travel back
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: in time, stop them from doing that, I would like
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: to think I would have. And you know, he clearly
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: lied to me. I think he lied to a lot
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: of people. And as I said, I regret, you know,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: ever knowing him. Much less, you know, emailing with him.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: But I think one of the things that's important to,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: or I would ask you to at least try to understand,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: from my perspective, is that, you know, I had a
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: very different understanding of the conduct at the time when
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: I was joking, or seemed to be joking, and I
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: certainly never intended to be insensitive. Mr. Lynch. You knew
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: he was a sex offender, though. A registered sex offender. Rumler. Yes,
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: I did. I did. Lynch. Let's move on. Rumler again.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: As I said, I regret dealing with him, much less
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: emailing with him. Mr. Lynch. Understood. So, Leon Black. He's
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: the former CEO of Apollo Global and a longtime friend
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: of Mr. Epstein's. During his transcribed interview before this committee,
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: he mentioned your name in a list of people he
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: claimed to have met through Mr. Epstein. Do you believe
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: that's accurate? Answer, that he met me through Mr. Epstein. Question,
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: that he met, he said during his, he mentioned your
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: name in a list of people that he claimed Mr.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Black claimed to have met through Epstein. Answer, yeah, Mr.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: Epstein did introduce me to Mr. Black. Question, okay, when
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: did you first meet Mr. Black? Answer, I don't recall
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: what year it was. Question, a range between? Answer, probably
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: in the 2014-2015 time frame. Question, I see. What was
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: the frequency of your interaction there between yourself and Epstein
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: and Mr. Black? Answer, I only recall meeting Mr. Black
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: on two occasions. And what Mr. Epstein would typically do,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: as I said, he'd come to New York, where he didn't,
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: he had a house, but it wasn't his residence. He'd
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: come into New York and he would set up a
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: bunch of meetings with people, which he would hold in
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: his dining room at a table. Believe it or not,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: that's even bigger than this one. And so, for example,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: we're coming to a meeting at two o'clock. That was
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: my scheduled time to meet with him. I would, you know,
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: sit in the secretarial office space. until such a time
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: as Mr. Epstein, you know, was ready for the meeting
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: with me. And he would, you know, typically have the
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: person who was coming into the meeting, in this example, me,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: at the same time that the person he was meeting
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: before was exiting. And so in that context, that's where
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: I met Mr. Black. Question, okay, did Mr. Epstein ever
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: talk to you about the nature of his dealings with Mr. Black? Answer,
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: I understood they had a business relationship, but I didn't
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: know any more details than that. Question, yeah. What in
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: particular business? Answer, no. I didn't understand the details of
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: their business relationship. Question, were you ever aware of any
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: abuse allegations against Mr. Black? Answer, not that I can.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: I know there has been some litigation subsequently, meaning, you know,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: after Epstein, you know, died. In more recent years, there
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: have been. Mr. Black has been involved in some civil litigation.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: I'm aware of that. Question, what about affairs? Were you
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: ever aware of Mr. Black being involved in any affairs? Answer,
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: I don't remember at the time. I know there have
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: been allegations again in the media covering civil lawsuits or
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: civil lawsuits that allege an affair. Question, I see. And
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: were you ever aware of Mr. Black requiring women to
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: sign non-disclosure agreements in connection with any of that litigation? Ms. Rumler,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: I don't have any knowledge of that. Mr. Lynch, okay,
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: that's all I have. All right, folks, we're going to
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: with the topic, we're going to pick up where we
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: left off. All the information that goes with this episode
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: can be found in the description box.