Latest / WoT Spoilers / Judgement - Towers of Midnight chapter 34 - EP566

Transcript

Judgement - Towers of Midnight chapter 34 - EP566 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Today is
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: launch day for podcast at Donut.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: That's super exciting.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: First three episodes A zero episode that is our intro
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: that's been up for a week just as a stress
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: test of the system. But today episodes one and two
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: we're both released, so people can go listen to those
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: and get fully committed to my chaos beisodes we'll be
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: coming out.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Those were the two that we released in the lot
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Spoilers Feed, right, so if you're listening to this, you've
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: probably heard those two already. But in the time between
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: when we record this and when it gets published, I'm
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: sure more episodes have dropped.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Yep, yep, I'm finally getting ahead. That is something that's
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: going well for me this year with podcast production, is
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: every podcast is recorded sufficiently ahead of where I'm editing
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: that I actually can edit ahead as well. But yeah,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I appreciate everyone on the Watt Spoilers Feed putting up
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: with those two episodes, and yeah, you can now go
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: listen to them over on the podcast at Donut Feed,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: albeit without the Watt Spoilers intro that y'all had, because
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: obviously that makes no sense for a brand new podcast.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: But yeah, today's launch day and this will be new
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: episode day forever for that show. So exciting.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: God damn it.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Donut podcast it, Donut cast it, Donut. So yeah, if
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: you are interested in Dungeon Crawler Carl or starting a
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: new series with us that you haven't read, you know,
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: go check out podcast at Donut It's We're having a
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: lot of fun with it. I think it's a good
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: new series. The audiobooks are fantastic.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, they're so good. Athalon's like, just go
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: ask Jeff Hayes to record you a podcast, don't it intro?
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Like we have Michael and Kate right terrifying.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: All I'm saying is Mike denhaman and the author has
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: been on other podcasts that have started now they are
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: video podcasts, and we're not that. But they seem willing
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: to go out and interact with fans. They're at that
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: level of fame where they're just getting popular enough. They
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: haven't been jaded enough where they have like people handling
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: their shit. I feel like they're like still trying to
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: get themselves out there and promote at every opportunity.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, not until we finish the first book. You can't
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: make this happen until we've at least finished.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: The first book, because like, Welcome Crawlers is a I've
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: seen that as so, there's another podcast out there called
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Welcome Crawlers that's sort of doing what we're doing. It's
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: all dudes, though, and they have an all dude perspective.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: And I did see that the author went author and
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: an audiobook narrator Matt Demon and Jeff Hayes went on
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: and interviewed with them. Wow. Yeah, I'm just saying I'm
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: just saying we.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Could do that. That's yeah. Let us get through the
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: first book.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Though, although we should post on Reddit asap about the podcast.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to make a Reddit account for the
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: podcast so we can just interact with that and just
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: have it not be you know, attached to our personalities
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: per se can just be its own thing, right, But yeah,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: it's exciting. Launching a podcast is always like a wait,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: how do I do this again? Kind of process. It's scary.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Everyone's different. Everyone has its own unique little things, even
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: one that just you and me are doing. It's like
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: still like.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Well, especially tapping into existing communities. You know, you have
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: to go to the community where they are interact with
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: them where they are, and we.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Will be recording more of that after we get through
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: today's what spoilers content, which.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Is listen, I'm judging it, all right, it's a.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Very judging chapter.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah called judgment.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Yep, because this is the tru the long awaited, stupid, annoying, ridiculous, overblown,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: hiped up yeah trial. Yeah, it's happening. We're here.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think I think what this is not
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: pisses me off. I think what's so crazy is they
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: make this big deal out of killing two white cloaks
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: when like five minutes later he and Gaul turned the
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: whole fucking battalion of them into mincemeat, you know, And
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: no one talks about that, no.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Ever, not once. Fayl watched it happen, and she never
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: even remarks on the incongruity in the privacy of their
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: own bedroom.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: No, not once, and nothing. No guilt like he has
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: guilt over these killing these two men. He talks and
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: he's like, I mean, I would have done it again,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: but you know, there's this sense of like, oh I
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: killed men, and the confusion and all that kind of stuff,
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: and it's like, was that the last time you felt
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: guilt over killing white cloaks.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Like what, Yeah, it's like he's somehow. I guess it's
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: because he ultimately comes down on I'm guilty because I
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: lost control, and when he rescues Gall and they chopped
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: those guys to mince me, it was fully within control,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Like that was a choice he made, and so he
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: doesn't have the same kind of like guilt. But like,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I think that's a dumb argument.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: I guess I think it's just he was more effective
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: at killing them. Yeah, he was just killed more of them, right, Like,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: so there was no witnesses.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Well, and I mean again, he wasn't more in control.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: He was not being overtaken by the wolves in that instance.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: But I don't think he should feel murder guilt over
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: being overwhelmed by the wolves in a life or death situation.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: It's like saying that, like, I don't know, I just
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: I find the well, my loss of control is why
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: I should be punished. It's like, you weren't in your
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: right mind, so you should be held to a different
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: level of accountability than the time that you deliberately used
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: your weapons to chop men as a man with Gall,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: like it just yeah, I don't. I don't get the
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: guilt over the loss of control being more important than
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: the murdering of humans. It's almost like he intrinsically also
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: values wolves less than humans, even though he says that
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: he doesn't. I don't know.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: I don't like it, or maybe Brandon Sanderson does.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: I'll read a sin and the simpol for the chapter
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: is the white Cloak sunburst rather than the wolves, because
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: the white Cloaks are the ones forcing the situation.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I want the scouts out watching, Paren said, forcefully, even
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: during the trial. The maidens won't like this, parent a
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Bara Sulan said, not if it makes them miss the
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: chance to dance the spears. They'll do it anyway, Parent said.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Walking through the camp, Daniel and Gall at his side.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Behind followed Azie and will Alcine, his two guards for
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: the day. Sulan inspected Paren, then nodded, it will be done.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: She moved off. Lord Parrin. Daniel asks, smelling nervous, what's
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: it's about. I don't know yet. Paren said something wrong
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: on the wind. Daniel frown looking confused. Well. Paren was confused, too, confused,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: and increasingly certain. It seemed to contradict, but it was true.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: I feel like that sums up Sanderson's entire approach to Paren.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: It seems like a contradiction, but it's true.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Being confused and increasingly certain somehow at the same time.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Right, that's just his approach to Paren.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm confused about what I'm doing with him, but
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: I'm increasingly certain about what I'm doing with him. I
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: just don't know why.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's uh, we've harped on it a lot. It
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: is continuing to be the thing we've been harping on, though.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: He is being more decisive and kind of on the
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: other side of a lot of the angst. There's still
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: some traces of angst here, but it is more or
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: less on the other side of the biggest angst storm,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: not angstrom angst storm.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: The angstromers are pretty small, so there's not really a
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: biggest angstrom.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Right right right, kind of an oxymor the biggest eggs storm.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: It's like this, one of the smallest units that like
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: matters at all. Not quite a plank, but pretty freaking small.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Do you know. The difference between like an adam and
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: plank length is difference between like a foot in the
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: size of the universe, like the proportions are about the same.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I was gonna suggest something a little more at solar scale,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: but yeah, I remember that it was cosmic rather than
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: intuitive human scale stuff. It is astronomical in scale. It
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: is really hard to understand how much of the material
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: world is empty space. It is upsetting to even begin
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: to get close to understanding how much of the material
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: world is just empty space.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: You know what blows my mind is the fact that
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: most of matter isn't matter, it's just energy. And really
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: it's energy all the way down. Right, Because if you
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: look right, you look at well, it's an atom madeup
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: of right, This is we're doing a science sidebar atoms
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: made up of neutrons, protons, and electrons. Right, If you
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: add up the mass of protons, neutrons, and electrons, they
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: have less mass than the mass of the atom. Why
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: because the atom has the mass of those three things
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: plus the energy of those things moving, and that actually
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: creates a big But then if you drill down further
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: and you look at like, oh, well, what is proton
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: made up of? Well, updowns and up and down quarks,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: And a proton has less mass than the up and
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: down quarks because the up and down quarks are moving,
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: and well, what's an up and down quark? Well, you know,
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: are they they just binding energy? All of a sudden
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: You're like, wait, is it just does the mass all
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: go away? Is it all just the energy of things
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: below it moving and it kind of yeah, right, and
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: then that's where we don't know, We don't know.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's absolutely bonkers. And then yeah, the distances
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: between like the ah, the electron of the proton, the
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: distances between atoms, it's just it's either stuff that's in
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: motion or it's empty space through which the stuff is
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: in motion.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: But what's the stuff that's in motion? Right? That's the
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: crazy thing is there doesn't appear to be in the stuff
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: in motion. It's just motion more motion. It's just pore motion,
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: like is it string? And that's where like string theory
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: comes in, as people like is it strings? Is that's
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: what's in motion? Are they little loops that are just vibrating?
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: We don't know?
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Right? And then yeah, Vuji, I totally agree. Then you
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: can just easily headcanon that dark energy and dark matter
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: is just the one power and what that's that's how
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: the circle loops around. It's just that's where it is.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: We know way less about dark energy than dark matter.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: Dark matter. We're pretty sure we know what that is.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: We pretty sure know it's a weekly interacting massive particle,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: right like it does appear to be a mad mass.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: We have a lot of evidence for it. Dark energy
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: is just the thing where we go, I don't know,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: universe seems to be expanding faster than it's supposed to
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: and we don't know why.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: And isn't dark energy a bigger part of the pie
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: chart of the mystery? Or was it dark dark matter?
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: Dark energy is the bigger one, right, Like, yeah.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: We figured out the smaller piece. Great awesome love that
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: for us.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: We think, not that we've identified it right, not that
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: we have the wimp, not that we but we think
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: we know about the properties of a particle that would
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: make up dark matter. We have a lot of constraints
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: on what it canon can't be dark energy. Man, we're
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: not even sure if the universe is expanding as fast
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: as we think it is. There's a there's the so
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: called crisis in cosmology where like we're measuring two different
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: expansion rates and they disagree depending on how far out
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: we're looking.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Like wildly disagree, like not by a small amount, like
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: by aid this change is which model is accurate an amount?
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: It's yeah, I was just watching a video about it
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, and my brain is still not
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: completely recoagulated from being broken open that hard. Like, what
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: do you mean we are that confused about the end
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: result of our mass? This is not okay?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Well, as far as I can tell, it's basically, if
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: you look close by, we're expanding at one rate, and
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: if you look further out, we seem to be expanding
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: at a different rate. And that either means a we
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: have our distances wrong, which is every distance is based
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: on the one closer right. You have all these different
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: ways of measuring distance, and each one is based on
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: the like you can do parallax up to a certain distance,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: but beyond a certain distance, parallax doesn't work, so you
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: have to do you know, sea feed variables and standard
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: candles and all that kind of crap. And so yeah,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: there's just a lot of uncertainty, and the uncertainty stacks,
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: but we're certain enough that we have constrained the values
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: so they don't overlap. The uncertainties are small enough that like,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know, it's this crazy thing, and like every way,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: there seems to be another way of measuring that seems
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: to be giving us a third I need to go.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I will recommend doctor Becky on YouTube. She has a
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: very good breakdown of the crisis in cosmology. She is
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: an astrophysicist who looks into black holes and is an excellent,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: excellent science communicator. So I'll plug that channel instead of
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: talking about it vaguely for another twenty minutes.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: I'll also plug Anton Petrov's his YouTube channel, that's where
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: I learned about it. He's he's much more of a
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: like science communicator. He reads papers that he thinks are
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: cool and then tells you about them. But I find
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: those breakdowns to be really helpful if you don't have
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: a head for keeping up with like pure physics. He's
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: much more of the like if you're a really smart
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: middle schooler, you can still keep up with this stuff,
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: which I appreciate. But yeah, we'll put both of those
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: in the description and we'll get back to this stupid trial.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Oh man, it's I think it's it's a valuable trial.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: It's valuable to have it. I just wish it had
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: happened way back in the beginning of this book.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, he's here thinking about his armies and how
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: he's going to disband them, so it shouldn't bother him
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: that they aren't cohesive. And you know, Gall ends up
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: calling him out on being happy with command and stuff, because, yeah,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Paren is the last one to realize that Paren has
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: resolved his issues. You know, we the audience have figured
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: it out. Gall has figured it out. Paren still doesn't
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: realize he's gotten over his shit, and.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: We see him being a little clever here where he's like,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: he gets that Fayel has arranged for the aschmom to
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: steal him away, and he's like, wait for my signal.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: I'll do it, but not unless I signal.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do appreciate that, he yes, and Fayel's plan,
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: he says, fine, you know what, She's not wrong, but
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: I need you to not be jumpy about it, Like,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: let me be a willing participant in my extraction plan, please,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: all right.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: I propose a new measure of the quality of each chapter,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: the tangent to content ratio that we create when doing
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: the podcast. And the more we tangent, the less we
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: like the content to the chapter.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean TC Traveler's right. Our tangents increase when
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: we don't like the content. This is this is so true. Yeah,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: there's probably a direct correlation. And I mean we've been
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: getting through the Dungeon Crawler Carl chapters real quick. We've
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: been snapping through those recordings. No extraneous tangents, We're just
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: on it. So yeah, yeah, something to that, all right.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: So we got a long digression about scouting to figure
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: out the limits of the dome and how it translates
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: to the real world, Like there's no physical barrier that
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: a person can feel when they pass across the line,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: just gateways start working. It's a lot of page time
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: spent to just describing what we already know about the
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: physics of it, because he's being smart. Finally, at the
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: eleventh hour and.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: We get a couple of drops about Alias being gone,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: and we later found out that's because he's off searching
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: for a physical device in the physical world, which is
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: never gonna find right.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: The fact that he doesn't find it is what drives
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: parin to the big confrontation with Slayer that overlaps with
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: the battle in the White Tower, And it's just a weave.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: That's because Elias can't find it in the real world
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: because dream spikes are meant to be hard to find,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: and you honestly could have sent Alias to find it
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: in the dream world, except for the part where he
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: avoids the dream world like the plague, but he is
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: like with the one other person who could have found
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: it in the dream world.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Arguably, I do like that that line was dropped in
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: these books where Elias is like, oh, fuck that, because
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: there's a couple of times whe were like, well, why
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: doesn't Elias know the dream world? Why isn't he doing
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: all this stuff? Why isn't he And He's like, yeah,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: because I did one look at it and went uh no,
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: like I'm not touching that with ten football.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: And that's the line that he drew back in early
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: early books, like the first time that Paren asked him
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: about it, way back in book whatever, Lias was like, no,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's nice that that is consistent. It's
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: not some kind of retcon. It's just Elias is an
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: old man and he is too tired for this shit.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: He does not fuck with that. And that pretty much
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: takes us to the uh to Fayelle's POV. The anything
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: They'll say about parents.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: No, that's uh oh well, I mean he's also having
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: this really strong sense that the trial is important for
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: more than just his personal feelings, that there is a trap.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: He's putting together at the pieces, that there's a trap,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: and that you know, this trial is the lynchpin in
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: more than he can see. It's not a feeling now,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: it's a firm theory.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: He's got adimal Akbar sitting on his shoulder doing it's.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: A trap exactly exactly. And Galla is like, it's so
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: good to see you in command. It just makes me feel.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: All romantic for you.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: It's great, and parents like I just decided to stop
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: protesting because it was wasting my time. I was like, yeah,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: that's what a leader would. It's cute, and yeah, then
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: we can switch to fail. And Fayel is talking to Aravin,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: who is apparently being hit on by Alden because Arala
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: isn't interested in him. And I'm just like, how many
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: A names can you pack him too a single short paragraph?
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Good lord?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Well, it's okay, all the ones from Amadisia.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: M h.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: And it's make guy shine by the ieel Ah.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: I mean like, my name has three a's in it.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: I like the letter A, but that's a there's a limit.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good thing. Abara isn't involved in this.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: So yeah, Fayel's doing you know, pre trial prep stuff,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: making sure everything's organized. We think about how the rumors
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: of inappropriate behavior have been diffused by her and Berylan's plan,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: plus the you know, accidentally saving berylin during the bubble
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: of evil. So that's resolving again. This chapter is giving
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: us a lot of much needed result that we just
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: needed a lot earlier. But it's good.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: And Alden was the bookkeeper who found them when they
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: were buried.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I thought that was the kid.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh well he was there helping I should say,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: not found them, but he comes to help rescue Fayel.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: She's he's part of the group that helps rescuer.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's. He's one of the more prominent of her
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Guyshiner army from inside the Fayo inside the Aeel camp.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Right right, I should say Ye's.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Only carry skirts divided for riding on the road. Got
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: to point out skirts divided for writing they're not pants.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Pants, but they're.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Not they're not pants. That's all the fay has when
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: she's traveling follow and she.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Doesn't have swallow anymore because Swalow was killed by the Shidow,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: which remember that, Like that was a yeah, yeah that
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: was rough. And I like the little interaction between Gaul
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: and Bin and Hiad is they get him as weapons
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: stuff already and they're like, we were concerned. You prepped
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: your own weapons, after all, so here's some that won't
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: fall apart like such shade. It's such shade. Yeah, so
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: that's a well done interaction. I thought very ill.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Of them, yeah, because they're like, hey, we brought you
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: your weapons. We care about you, and he's like, but
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: I already have weapons. They're like, no, but we care
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: about you. We were concerned for you, and the only
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: way we need to express that concern was to completely
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: undercut your confidence or your own weapon care. And then
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: he laughs at that because fundamentally, what they're saying is
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: that we care.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Funnily, mentally, they're saying, we went out of our way
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: to make sure that your weapons of war would keep
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: you alive because we don't want you to die. That's
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: the actual subtext. And when he laughs and accepts it,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: he says, Okay, I'll be with you on your terms.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Fine. This is the equivalent of my wife handing me
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: a nice packed lunch and me going I was just
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: gonna buy pizza at work and her being like, yeah, no,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I don't trust you to make your own lunch, right, like,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: here's here's a nice sandwich, and uh, you know, she's
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: insulting my ability to make my own lunch. But she
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: also then is showing she cares my making me a
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: much nicer lunch than I would have prepared for myself.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly. And also, this is Bane and she
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Had operating as a single person, right, Doctor Pants is
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: pointing out this is a wee thing. He's accepting the
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: tools from both of them, not one or the other.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: He's finally accepting that they are a package deal.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: I think it's partially that Brandon just didn't know the
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: difference between them, so he just wrote them as one k.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: The goal is mature in his relationship with.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: That.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: No, you're probably right because nobody keeps track of them,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: because Bane and she Had is one person.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Except again, Baine is Gall's Bane.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you did come up with that very good mnemonics.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: The only way for me to remember, you know, Sideine
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: is peen and.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: Uh, and Baine is Bane, Bain is galls Bane and
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: van Deen the green Vandeen the green.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, those that helps with the which one, which one's green,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: which one's brown?
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I think that's those are the three, the three ones,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: the three mnemonics that you've really created. The stick and
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Sidine and peen makes me so angry, but unfortunately it works.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: It works. Yeah, it makes me mad. Yeah, whenever I'm
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: questioning in my own head weight sidin' sidar because I
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: used to have trouble without it. He's to have a lot
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: of trouble with that and not anymore.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: I managed to find a workaround in remembering that Sidar
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: is for the people that go to Saladar. I managed
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: to splice that in on top of Sidine pen because
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I just hated it so much. But like you know,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: it's still wallpapering over something that is very much still there. Okay,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: So Paren is a little bit more honest with Fayl
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: about his visions and dreams and stuff, much like he's
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: going to do in the trial. Right, He's being very
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: open about his magic abilities because it is tarm and
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: guiding cards on the table.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Right, No more lies, no more secrets, right, we're really
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: in that stage of the story where everyone's just like, yep,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: here's what I've been hiding. Deal with it.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what are you going to do? Not fight in
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: the last battle?
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And that really is like, yeah, just just give
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: me to the end of the lost battle, right, And
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: that's sort of how the trial ends. Give me to
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: the end of the last battle.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like to you how Paren says, maybe I'm
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: just jumping at shadows, and fail says, lately the shadows bite,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: So I trust your instincts, Like jumping at shadows is
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: a reasonable thing to do when bubbles of evil are
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: popping out every other day.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Oh here, he says. He sent Elias out hunting the
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: signs of away Gate, not necessarily the dream Spike. But
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: I guess both, right, I.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Know he sends the Maidens out looking for the dream Spike.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: That's why they're gone. Later Alias is looking for away Gate.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: So we were completely wrong in our entire previous conversation
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: about Elias.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Well, fortunately we set it in the recording, so I
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: don't have to do an editing a radio, so like
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: go back in and correct it. Like people can just
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: listen and find out laugho.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: You always called laugho because they listen to us and
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: laugh at us.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's very very listen and laugh.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, some description of more gasee as more gasee instead
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: of I was gonna say, instead of Mogodine. What's her
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: fake name, Megdan, Megdan.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she is fully judged, judied out at this point.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: She's in a red and gold dress. She's got an
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: elevated platform. She's doing the hand resting legally on the
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: arm rest of the chair thing, she's doing it. She's
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: more gazing.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: So Parent goes up to Gall and just says, hey,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: can you promise that, like, no matter the outcome of
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: this trial, we're not going to like start a battle
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: based on it. And Gol's like, are you willing to
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: you know, abide by the ruling? And he's like no,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: so no Galad, but yes, Gall Galad, Galad, Goad Glad
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: cut that in.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's you know, it's a way of it's
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: a way for Sanderson to really emphasize that these are
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: two very honorable men trying to figure out how to
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: get their moral compasses to align. And it's sort of
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: this negotiation of proving that they are in good faith,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: but also they have mutually exclusive to and how do
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: we resolve that is kind of what I choose to
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: take out of this.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: And then here's where I get really pissed off about
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: the lack of mention of the other white cloaks he killed.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: Where he's like, I killed those men and and or
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: when more Geese was queen, I should abide by her judgment.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: What about all the other men you killed? Like just
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: these men? Are you not going to be like, Oh.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: I don't think that was an andor? Though? Was it?
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Oh that may have been in well where it was
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: in the carol wasn't in the caroline grass.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: No, the caroline grass is what is what this incident
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: was when he killed those other white Where did he
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: meet Gaul? What was the city he met gallin?
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, that was Maybe that's why he didn't bring it up.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: It's he's rules lawyering.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I wasn't technically an and or.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: It wasn't an and or because the caroline grass is
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: like in and or according to old maps. But like
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: there's not really people altar.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: He's in a women in Altaro.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's a completely different jurisdiction. So that must
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: be why he never thinks of it. His morality has
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: a legal.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Code, all right, So all right, I mean no, that's
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: that's a perfectly good answer. Is why doesn't more Geese
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: have jurisdiction over him murdering all the white cloaks with Gaul?
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: It's not nan or Yeah, and.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: There's no witnesses to accuse him of it.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: And that until he's not going to be like, oh,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: by the way, I murdered a bunch more of you guys.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: You ever won war? That battalion went, yeah, that was.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Me too, Yeah, yeah, those eight guys that just mysteriously
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: chopped themselves to bits at Altaria, that was me.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: The wold thing to be like, oh yeah, some guy
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: was killed by an axe and wolves, right like, because
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: there were wolves helping him out in that fight.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: No, it's just him and Gaul.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: It was okay, I thought there was some wolves like
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: picking them off on the outside. Now, No, you're right,
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: you're right, you're.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: It was totally like in an urban environment there were wolves.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: There are no wolves. I'm like, oh, yeah, parent, when
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: parent fights, wolves show up.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: No, that was Domi as well as that one time.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the last battle.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: And the last battle, that other one time, the.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Other one time, and you know the fight with the
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: first fight with the White Cloaks that we're doing a
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: trial here.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: For well obviously that one one.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that other one your other left on your
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: third hand. And so Gala basically says, hey, you know,
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: you kill these two people and you're a dark friend
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: who brought talks to the two rivers and more cases like, yeah,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: that last one is bullshit. I'm not going to even
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: try that. Like that's dismissed right out of hand.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not relevant, it's not helpful. And like nobody
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: in their right mind believes that parents a dark friend.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Like dark friend is not the kind of thing you
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: prove with a trial. Dark friend is, I mean, maybe
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: it is. Possibly, We've never actually seen any dark friend
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: trials other than the White Cloaks pretending that they have
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: jurisdiction before they just summarily kill people.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like you could. I think the
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: thing is, the people who are brought to trial for
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: being a dark friend are so obviously dark friends from
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: the things they've done and the things they've said. We've
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: never had to be like putting together evidence that someone's
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: dark friend. Right, we've always been like, oh, yeah, they
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: murdered this guy and said hail the dark One, like
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: this right exactly, really the great Lord.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. So Morgaze is looking at Paren and his
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: you know, evident and avowed alignment to the lights side
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: and being.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Like, no that now, I've been with this guy. Yeah,
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: he's killed way too many trolics for him to be
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: at our friend.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we can have a trial about an actual, like
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: violent conflict between humans, but this big existential thing that
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: makes no sense and nobody accept a few rapid white
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: cloaks believes like, no, I'm not adding that to the trial.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: And goalad I think has it there more to placate
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: his men and fulfill the paperwork requirements. And because he
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: actually you know, believes that, he lets it drop quite easily.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: By our I accuse Parent a par of killing two
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: people and being a poopy head. Okay, we're not going
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: to trial him on.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: The poopy head exactly exactly. And then we have pages
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: and pages of this very clinical description of what happened
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: and Paren having a very emotional retelling of how it
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: went in his head that I don't think we need
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: to reread because we've all read I Have the World
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: a bajillion times, we know exactly what happened.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I can say a few things, him
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: saying you should have thrown the axe away, but Elias
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: convinced him to keep it. I don't really I kind
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: of remember that, and yeah, I do remember that, but it.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Was, yeah, because he was thinking about how he was
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: ready to mercy kill Agwain. Ravens caught them, and he's
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: like ready to throw the axe away, and Elias is like, dude,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: that is not a good reason to throw the axe away.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Keep the axe you want it.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: In that eventuality, you know everyone knows wolves served the
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: dark one really presenting, you know, the fear was there.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: He's really emphasizing that the white cloaks were afraid. I
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: never thought the White's cloaks were afraid.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that was the one thing I did want
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: to point out, is how he there were very fine
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: people on both sides. Is yeah, yeah, And it made
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: me mad then and it makes me extra.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Mad now, makes me really mad now.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: The things that have happened since these books came out
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: and horizon broadening I've experienced since then. And yeah, no,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: there were not very fine people on both sides. One
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: was a violent mob with torches and the other people
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: were just trying to exist. Like literally, that's what happened.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: You marched up to them and circled them with fire
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: and demanded that they submit to you, and then accused
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: them of being obstinate and deserving of violence when they
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: didn't instantly submit to you.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Like, no, do you think the white cloaks have the
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: escalation training.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: They only get escalation training just like cops.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I gotta say that the white cloak cop analogy has
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: never been perfect to me, right, because they're not a
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: domestic force. They're not trying to enforce laws. However, the
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: slave catcher ice agent analogy works really well. Yeah, they're
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: not an official police force. These are not police offic
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, fuck the police. Don't get me wrong,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Like I'm still you know, but.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the analogy fits better.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: The analogy fits better for the ice agent white cloak
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: parallelism for what they're doing, the way they're terrorizing people,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: the way they're grabbing people. Oh are you a dark friend?
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: Oh are you an immigrant?
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Right, Like, yeah, we're just gonna bust into your house
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: in the middle of the night and rip you from
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: your bed in your underwear and just you know, march
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: you into the street.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: I hold you without you know, guilty until proven innocent, right,
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Like I mean, yeah.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, And I mean and that's where the analogy
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: to the cops has always felt like it should be there,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: because you know, slave catchers are the basis of how
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: we modeled the cops, Like they do grow out of that.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: But yeah, there are standards that the cops are held
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: to that these ice agents can't meet. And yeah, and it's.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Just a better parallel for what the white cloaks are doing.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's a really really good point that actually
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: we've we've got a better now now fuck.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a more accurate white cloak force in
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: the real world harassing people.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're claiming that they're in fear when they
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: empirically are not, because they had the superior force and
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: nothing about their body language, tone of voice, or choice
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: of actions actually indicates fear. They're just claiming fear because
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: it's a legal defense that exists, not because there's any
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: evidence that they actually felt it.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: And by claiming fear, they can escalate the situation. And
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: then when you protect yourself. That's well, well, we're justified
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: for her killing you.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: Or even when you try to get out of the
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: way in a way that they don't like, that is
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: a threat because they put themselves specifically in your way
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: and as you try to get out of the way,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: that is obstructing their ability to.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and god forbid, you want to protect an innocent
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: like a Gwain from being yeat.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. If you put your body on the line
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: to protect someone who's about to be violently assaulted, you're
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: getting in the way of justice to serve whatever's coming
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: to Yeah.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: This is.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like Jordan knew that history rhymed.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: It's like these forces have risen at various times in
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: political states in the past.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like this is just a thing that
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: asshole people will do.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Forgive me. Harvey is rocking my fucking desk. He keeps
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: trying to get underneath my feet and then settling down
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: and then deciding there's not enough space, and then getting
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: up and scooting back out again and hitting the chair
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: on the table and knocking everything sideways. Then he goes
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: out and sits on the couch out in the bedroom,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: and then it's like, ah, this isn't good enough. I
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: need to be on his feet. And then he squeezes
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: back inside the closet that I'm recording in.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like, Dad, you're talking about the police state
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: and you're upset. You need an emotional support dog, but
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: there's not enough.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: Room for me under your desk. Oh he's back again, Hi, buddy.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: So you're gonna need to rebuild the office to be
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: better suited to fit the dog.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Timber fit under their fine. Harvey's just a bigger dog.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: He's not a lot. He's only fifteen pounds.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Heavier, but he's got longer legs.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: He's much longer.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a tall boy. So you're gonna have to
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: completely remoth your office to fit your current dog.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: I do like, h there is a very real possibility
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: of moving the office into the garage and sort of
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: building a space down there to record in.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Well, make sure that you take the dog's measurements into
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: account when you do that.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's he's settled down my feet under my
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: feet right now.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: He's doing a pretty good job because we stopped talking
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: about the police state.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: I guess I know he's very upset that he's talked
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: about the police state.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Harvey is a cab forever.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, he was almost for a little while.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: He got abused by the police.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, right, dog. There is a man here in
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: this scene who I feel like was being held as
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: side for one of the donor names, and then a
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: donor name never came up. So he's just a random
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: man who's named. He's just this other bald white cloak
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: who's never named. He's just the man. He has nothing
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: to add. He just is there to say. I agree
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: with everything that was said already, but he never gets named,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: and I feel like that was a donor name that
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: just never got filled.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, So according to Encyclopedia Watt, that is our tar
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: young man with diarve hare from the dragon reborn. Oh hmm,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: this is interesting. This is this is an error Encyclopedia
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Watt made him. Has to be a mistake. This link
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: took me to Lord Orban, who's the guy who captured
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Gaul and like bragged about the lion. Yeah that's not
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: this guy.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Uh No, this is a white cloak, Yeah, who was
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: ostensibly there and I of.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: The world let me see or Okay, but or is
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: this guy child or tar is a member of the
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: Child of the Light or tar or a tar oh R.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: A t R is a young and bald He has
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: a short, little short, a little plump around the middle,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: and his long nose at this point like a beak.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: He was present when par and Abara killed two other
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: members of the Children of the Light. He confirms Jared
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Byer's account of the murder.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Well, he's not named in this chapter, and that's weird.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: First mentioned Towers of Midnight chapter seven. He killed two
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: children on a forgotten road in and Or some two
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: years ago. I was traveling with Bornhart's This is Buyer
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Bornhalt's father. We met parent Abara in campsite off the
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: main road. Da Da Da Da Da. There are others
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: that confirm this gull and ass child or a tar
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: can and child bornhld can confirm what we saw in
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: the two rivers. Okay, So in chapter seven he's saying
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: this was witnessed by this other child who is there.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: So one assumes that that's who is given here as
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: the witness.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, so that's where we get that name from.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: That's a reasonable assumption, But it's weird that he's not
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: named is the trial proceedings. You think they would want
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: to put all the names in the official court record.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Weird that they leave that out.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: And then yeah, there's just there's an error in the
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: encyclopedia Watt that links to the wrong article.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Should tell them they're supposed to be infallible.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: But yeah, this is the only time he's mentioned, Like, yeah,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: it's it does seem seem weird to just add in,
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, there's another white cloak that saw the whole thing.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: And he's the man. It's just weird. It's I just
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: feel like it should have been like child byer and
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: child or a tar will give their report, you know,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: like I feel like that's a sentence that should have
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: been said instead of just oh, yeah, there's this other guy. Anyway.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: I guess it's to emphasize that we're in parent's head,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: so we don't know all the white cloaks, but it
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: just feels like something you would put in. I feel
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: like the stenographer should be putting a flag on the play,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: being like, and who is this man? I guess there
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: aren't stenographers at this point, but there should be. So
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: then Paren presents his side, which is this whole long,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: meandering digression where he tells us about how his teacher
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: told him that it's really important to keep your chin
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: up and that's why you should listen to his argument
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: and it all carries the day and it's great, and
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: basically his argument is that I can talk to wolves,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: therefore wolves or people, therefore it was self defense not murder,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: which is a solid argument, but he's really self righteous
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: He does that argument right, it wasn't it was self defense,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: but then he immediately says, to be honest to Grace,
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: I wasn't in complete control of myself. I was ready
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: to surrender, but with the wolves in my head, I
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: felt their pain. I had to fight. I wasn't like
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: it was self defense and I wasn't in control.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: It was both self defense, and I'm pleading the insanity
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: clause whicheveryone's going to get me out of this.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: It's just not a good argument on his side, Like
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: he just doesn't defend himself very well at all.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: I like the self defense argument because that's how I
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: read it, and then I actually was out of control,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: like it cheapens everything, and I don't know, maybe should
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: work it out in therapy. Instead of with a judge.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: They were killing my I expected them to come swinging
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: at me. I struck first, right, Like, I mean, that's just.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: And like I get it, Like part of his personality
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: is feeling like he has to be in control at
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: all times and he can't hurt, Like it's a big
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: thing for him to lose control. But I still don't
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: think that it's something that needs to be punished by
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: a court of law. It's just like, just because it's
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: a big part of your personality doesn't mean that it's
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: a legal failing to have had a tough time.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: And I think what really bugs me about this is
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: so many characters kill so many people. Matt murders dark
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: friends left and right who are trying to steal from him.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: You know, rand is just doing all sorts of terrible
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: things so many people, and to relitigate one arbitrary murder
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: from the beginning of the series doesn't feel like the
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: best writing to me, if that makes sense.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: And of white cloaks, of white cloaks with no backstory,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: These white cloaks mean nothing. They have no presence before
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: or after aside from as murder victims. They're essentially fridged right,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: they exist only to die, and they're white cloaks. Why
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: are we spending so much ink on that? No, it's
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I completely agree. I completely agree.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: I would argue they're not even Fridge because they don't
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: even really create character development for parent until it's wedged
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: in here at the end, Like he never thinks about, oh, no,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I killed those men. I feel bad about it, not
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: once until this trial comes up.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I completely agree. It's really really it devalues
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: so much of the cool lessons we could be getting
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: from it that it's two pointless white cloaks that are
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: the hinge.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: On all of this.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: The one line I really do like, and this is
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: when he turns to Bornhold and says, have you never
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: realized that some men are different from you? Bornhold? Have
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: you ever tried to think what it must be like
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: to be someone else? If you could see through these
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: golden eyes of mine, you find the world a different place.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: And the way, good line, good lid line, the way
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: I want that to be presented every Republican, you know,
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: because too often it's like, if you could just put
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: yourself in someone else's shoes, you might have empathy, but
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: you don't want to do that, and so it doesn't
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: matter until it happens to you. And then once it
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: happens to you, you're up in arms and being like, well,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: why did anyone change that? And it's like we tried to,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: We had empathy, We thought about this ahead of time.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: You actively kept us from doing anything about it when
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: we told you that it was affecting everyone but you.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: And now that's affecting you, you want to do something
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: about it. I mean, as much as I the murdering
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: of Renee Good was awful and terrible, and the protests
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: that rose up around it are righteous and good and
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: are making changes. She is not the first person to
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: be killed in our country by police, She's the first
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: white woman to be killed by ice. Yeah, And the
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: level of protest where people rise up for her and
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: not for the other people who were killed, right, And
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: part of it is because there was so much video evidence, right,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: Like that was one of the reasons, Like it was
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: very clear who was in the right because of the
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: multiple angles of video that we got.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: But like, was George Floyd not enough? Right? We had
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: agonizingly large amounts of video of that.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Well, and I'm not even talking about that I'm talking
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: about like people Ice murdered multiple people of color. Oh yeah,
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: in the weeks leading up to Renee, Yeah murder.
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's the larger policing conversation, and then yeah there's
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: the Ice specific conversation. Yeah yeah, no, definitely reading this, like,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: have you ever considered that someone could be different from you?
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: And then looking at Yeah, the divergent reactions to people
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: of color versus a white woman getting the exact same
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: level of agregious, abusive power and extra judicial killing that
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: everyone can see is absolutely egregious and extra judicial and
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: completely out of scale. Like, yeah, it would be nice
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: if some more people could spend a few seconds trying
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: to imagine what it's like to be someone completely different,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: like your your lived reality will still be there for
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: you when you come back. You know, you can take
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: a little field trip in your imagination and not lose
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: who you are fundamentally, and it might make the world
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: make more sense and give you a path forward.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: And it's the number of people of color who are
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: who are saying when white people are like, I didn't
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: think our country was like this, and the people of
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: color were like, well, we were saying it for decades
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: and you weren't listening, like literally literally and that's and
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: that's really have you ever tried to put yourself in
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: someone else's shoes? So? Have you ever tried to live
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: your life in a brown person's shoes in America? And
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: people just haven't.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Like the the terror that they're gonna break your door
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: down and murder you, like first time really exactly. Yeah, yeah,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: it's it's it's galvanizing, and that is frustrating. M hmm right,
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: like watching it be galvanizing, it's like, I mean, I'm
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: glad that something is motivating you, but god, damn uh.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: That kind of goes with my I've also been watching
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: the perfect poor person memes, where where people basically are like,
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: the perfect poor person doesn't wear a loud colors, the
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: perfect poor person like basically like this idea of it.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, you blame poor people for being poor.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: If they're not perfect, if there's any flaw on them,
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: if theyre anything, if they haven't done any every they.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: Dare to buy themselves ice cream? Right, that's a waste. Yeah,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: a perfect poor person doesn't need ice cream. Clearly, the
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: perfect poor person doesn't ever use drugs. The perfect poor
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: person you know, it's this idea of like, if you
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: do any of these things, you're not worthy of being
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: helped or supported because oh my god, you're not perfect. Therefore,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: you know, you don't deserve the resources of somebody else. Yeah. Yeah,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: it's like, just just try empathy for five entire seconds. Maybe,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: maybe possibly you might see the world a little differently
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: and see how to fix the problems that you're so
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: self righteously angry about.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: How do they have a phone?
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Exactly?
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're poor, how can you pay for a phone?
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Because like, a phone is one of life's necessities these days,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: and they're not that expensive compared to things like housing.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, food, right, so many, so many yelling tansions. We
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: could go, but we should probably reel this one in
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: we've been going for a minute and return to the
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: It's a.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: White Cloak chapter. I know we're in the middle of
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: a fucking ice attack on this country that is absolutely
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: in my head, like it's and the parallels are a
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: little too strong for me to just leave the sitting
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: on the table.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: No, it's super real, and man, when we go record
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: Dungeon Crawler, Carl later that last chapter had some way
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: too on the nose, explanations for why fascism is taking
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: over and ruining everything, and why the bread and circus
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: is so circusy and also covered in blood, and it
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: just hit really too close to home with the way
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: that we're just dealing with the fascist achover and everything
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: is horrible and covered in blood and everyone's just watching
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: TV harder than ever.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: It spoilers, it gets even more on the nose.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: I was promised that and uh oh boy, so yeah, no,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: it actually pairs well with this White Cloak chapter and
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: parent being like, could you please have five seconds of
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: empathy to realize that the fact that you are a
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: terrorism hate group is why you see the world as
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: full of enemies, because, I mean, that's what it is, right,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: That's why if you can make the argument that the
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: White Cloaks were afraid or the Ice agents are afraid,
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: it's because they've decided that the world is full of
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: enemies that are out to get them and no amount
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: of evidence will change that. I mean, we see bornhald
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: here being like, it's not what I saw, it's what
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: I know. It seemed that you were doing the right thing,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: but I'm sure that there's really a plot like that's
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: the brain pretzels that these people are doing, Like, where's
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: the Second Amendment? Guys, coming to defend us from a
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: tyrannical government that's snatching people out of their homes, right
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: like the fucking brain pretzels that these fucking people will
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: go through to defend the fact that they've decided that
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: the world hates them and there's just there's no evidence
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: that that will matter to them.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: This reminds me of coming after a brown person, an
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: older brown person who's getting arrested by an ICE agent,
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: being like, Oh, I fought with your father in World
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: War two against the Nazis, and now you're an ICE
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: agent coming to arrest me, right like that level of
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: born hall being like parents, Like, I fought with your
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: father against the shan Chan. I fought with your father
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: against the Nazis, right like, and he fought well and
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: he died, and you're blaming me for his death, right like,
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: And you're coming after me and arresting me when like
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: we were fighting on the same side against an invading
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: force of I mean, slavers, right like, and now you're
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: coming like it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: any sense.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: And if you literally could take five seconds, one second
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: to like think about this from anyone's perspective other than
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: the one that you've been so comfortable with, Like maybe
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: you could see that this is not the only way
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: to look at the facts. This is not the only
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: way to look at the world, This is not the
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: only way to brain pretzel yourself.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: And of course he's got Buyer on that side, being
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: like he's evil, He's what we know is Grendel.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Right, like Bayer is the one that's raving. Bornhald is
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: actually factual ish, He's like, but you can see that
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: he's he's either going to model himself after Goalad or
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: after Buyer. Right, he's oscillating between the two extremes of
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: like actual logic based on cutting your emotions out and
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: pure emotions that were installed by you know, a forsaken
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: and Bornhald is struggling. He literally is getting a headache.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: He sits down and puts his head in his hands,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: like he's actively getting a headache from how hard it
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: is to be between these two.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Poles, Parent says, can't you see we were fighting alongside
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: the white cloaks. Buyer you seem to be Byer said
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: the wily, just as you've seen me defending the people
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: in the two rivers. Don't trust your eyes, don't trust
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: the things you see, Believe what I say.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: And the final order of the party.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: M hm.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly, Like Bayer has four reasons of
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: magical evilness. But still Bayar has fully committed and he
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: will brain Pretzel anything to fit that world view. The
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: brain worm has completely taken control.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: And let's be honest, Grendall probably used the lightest touch
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: of compulsion on him.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, No, she didn't pick the most rabid one
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: by an accident. That was a choice that she Yeah,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: she looked over them and said, oh that one, that one.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: Just a slight more nudge, just a little bit normer
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: because because the little incident with him trying to kill
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Paren with them escaping happened long before.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, he's kinda Grendel, right, Like he's totally
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: totally and like it's you know, she wanted to leave
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Bayer with the maximum amount of agency to you know,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: figure out a way to kill Paren, which means the
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: least amount of compulsion is what you want to do,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: So that way, his brain is like the most cognizant,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: and yeah, so picking the one who was already kind
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: of fired up to hate him viciously. Anyway, the brain
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: the brain worm was already half installed. All she had
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: to do was give it a little bit of growth hormone.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: And so more Gaze looks at all this and decides
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: she's going to nor any nuance and say, well, you know,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: the letter of the law says this, and that's what
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: I have to stick by. So a letter of the law,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: you're guilty.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I'm an originalist, and what the founding fathers
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: wrote down on paper in a rush is definitely the
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: end of the discussion.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Which is the exact opposite of everything we know about
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: more Gase. In the way she actually makes decisions and
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: rules the country, it's.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Very different from how Elaine handles things. Yeah, I found
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: that to be a very disappointing. Well, you say that
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: the wolves are people, but I'm going to consider them
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: legally livestock. And I'm just like, this is giving well,
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: it's legal to do chattel slavery. Well, it's legal to
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: build death camps. That's what this is giving me. And
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: that's not what I expect from and or.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: No, I sort of if you think again, just because
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: I'm going deep into the politics on this episode, but right,
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: imagine it was paring with a bunch of black people
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: and they were slaughtered by the white cloaks, and technically
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: they're not their property.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: Right, They're only three of a person. So yeah, that's
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: definitely the energy that this is giving me is like, well, yeah,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: I'm an enlightened Northern judge, but like you can't disagree
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: that these people are property. They're not people. Like that's
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: what it's giving me. And it's like, I mean, I
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: know that like wolves and people, but like, I don't know,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Hopper's a person. The wolves are people. We've made that
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: really like a big part of the world building and
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: a big part of Parents' personality is that wolves are people.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: And to have our golden haired Queen of Justice say
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: wolves are not people is just a letdown. It's a
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: huge lowdown because like, Parents not guilty. He was attacked
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: and the outcome was unfortunate like that d And then
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: she turns it over to Galad because she's like, well,
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: Gold's a good man, he'll make the right decision. And
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: I'm like, that's a horrible gamble. That is a horrible gamble.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: And not to mention again, not something the Queen of
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: and Or would ever do. She's in her role as
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: Queen of Andor and during this judgment.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, legally speaking, you're too. And also legally she's arguing
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: that Perrin and Igwayne were a mercenary band, right, that's
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: the legal argument, is that they were aybody else. And
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: it's like that's calling the Palestinian people a military force
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: equal to the Israeli military, like, uh, the rocks versus
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: rocket launchers, totally equivalent forces.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: And is a completely unnecessary decision unless you have made
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: the decision that he's guilty but also don't want to
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: give him the appropriate punishment. It's just it's such an out,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: it's such a like. It's weasily, it's weasley, it's very weasy.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: And I don't associate weasels with the Lion of and
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Or because Lion of and Orm.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: No, this is this is Sanderson's peak. He does this
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: in his own books too, right, that he sets up
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: this big moment, this big trial, and for plot reasons,
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: characters make decisions that don't fit with the character. This
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: is something I see him do. He set up multiple trials. Right,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: there's a whole Atalin trial in one of the books
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: where he's basically trying to argue for you know, minors
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: spoilers for Stormaline archive. But he's trying to get allies
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: to help them fight, right, And so he goes up
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: and does this whole presentation and there's all these weird
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: technicalities and laws and stuff like this. It feels very
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: much like this, and at the end he doesn't get
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: what he wants and the whole thing is long and
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: drawn out and pointless and feels out of character, and
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: it feels just like this scene some people. I like,
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: there's a moment in that trial that is set up
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: that is a good moment, and you can tell that's
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: why he wanted the trial to be there. But the
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: trial itself has so much leading up to it and
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: so much crap around it, and so much build up
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: and so much, but then it doesn't matter. And that's
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: how I feel about this one as well. There's all
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: this build up. She pronounces that, you know, there's this
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: out of character stuff from her gaze, and it's all
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: just so that Golod can forgive, can can show be
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: magnanimous and be like Oh, don't worry about it. You
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: saved me.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: So it's so Paren can have the release of guilt.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: But the only reason that the guilt was there was
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: because this paramilitary force insisted on shoving it down his throat,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: and Goalod wasn't even there. So when Galad gives absolution,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: it's like super clinical. Yeah yeah, and somehow it still
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: works for Paren, and I'm just yeah, it's a little deflaty.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: It feels like a moralizing stance from a moral axis
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: that I don't agree with.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: And the trial just never feels like it has any
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: impact because Gold could have forgiven him at any time,
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: but I.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: Wanted it to be legal. Why you don't even acknowledge
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: being an and Orman, mister rebellious leader of the Two
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Rivers menthelin magic.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: And how do you hold someone to a legal standard
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: who literally has three rulers giving him fealty. Those rulers
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: are the laws in their own land and they give
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: him fealty, Like I.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Just, yeah, not the way we wanted this to go.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: I think this trial has always been something that I
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: found unsatisfying, and as we're digging into it, I find
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: it infuriating, Like I thought, I'm so much angrier at
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: this chapter than I thought I was going to be
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: when doing my notes.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's especially with just the way the world is
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: right now, what's happening with our country and what's happening
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: with our country's relationship to other countries.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: And we're recording this on January twentieth, by the way,
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: since we're talking about modern Yeah, yeah.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: That's it timestamp. Yeah, we're currently threatening to destroy NATO
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: over Greenland. That's our gist of. So it's I think
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: extra infuriating because, yeah, this is upsetting in ways that
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: mirror what's upsetting about the outside world right now.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: And the conclusion isn't satisfying in a way that like
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: resolves the problems, right, it's just that brushes the problems
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: under the rug and says, oh, it will be loyal
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: to you know.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I agree with Pants that it feels like
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Gallad because he's doing what's right based on legal codes. Right,
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: Galade is lawful good, which you know, feels like an oxymoron,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: but like Morgaze is supposed to be a little bit
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: more chaotic, this is supposed to be. How if Galade
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: had come up with this whole solution of that I
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: would find it way more believable. But Morgaze is supposed
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: to be more chaotic and just good and not focused
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: on laws like Galad ends up being the more flexible
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: one by getting to set the punishment and ends upsetting
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: it as serve in the Last Battle with honor and
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: pay a blood price to the parents.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Of the menu killed, and Morgeze not taking into account
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: any of the time she's spent with parent, any of
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: the personal experiences she's had, like just not how that
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: would work.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: She's doing this, She's doing the objective perspective that allows
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: supremacy culture to just maintain a stranglehold for centuries. Like
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: the well, I don't have any emotions. I'm just looking
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: at the facts. Well, the facts have been warped by
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: the way the legal code has been written, by the
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: way our culture is set up, by the way that
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: we've all been trained and educated and raised and taught
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: to do our jobs. And this objectiveness is actually taking
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: the side of the system, and the system is oppressive.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: So you're not neutral, right, This is this is that
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: weird attempt at neutrality that is siding with the oppressor
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: that you know that quote is about right if you're
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: neutral in situations of injustice. You've chosen the side of
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: the impressor of the oppressor, Like this is that kind
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: of like, well, I'm just being neutral. These are just
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: the facts that these aren't the facts. You are cherry
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: picking facts to fit a legal code that shouldn't even apply.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: And that is siding with people who are better at
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: manipulating the system rather than the people who are being
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: actively oppressed and marginalized by the system. I e. Ignorant
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: farm kids who were being attacked by a pellor military
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: force wielding torches in the middle of the night.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: With the history of kidnapping and torturing people into false confessions, a.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Proven history, no redeeming qualities, and your refusal to submit
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: to them equal evenly, your refusal to submit to them
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: easily makes you a equally matched military force, and therefore
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: the law can neutrally meet out justice. It's bullshit. It's
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: absolutely bullshit.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: No, there's this the trial gives me. Why didn't you
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: just comply, Vibes, Why didn't you just give them your ID?
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: Why didn't you just get on the train. Why didn't
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: you just take your clothes off? Why didn't you step
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: into the showers right, like.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: Uh, there is no winning. You're telling me that I
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: should have just submitted to abuse quietly and let you
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: kill me quietly, and then I could be memorialized quietly
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: or not at all. It's just it's real gross, it's
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: real gross. There was no winning. There's no winning with
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: the White Cloaks. There's no winning with an avowed terrorist
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: hate group that is abducting people and torturing them for
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: no reason. There's just no point in letting them take
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: you to a second location. Don't let the kidnappers take
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: you to a second location.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: And yet Morgaese is treating them like a legitimate military
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: outfit when she knows she has thrown them out of
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: her country.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: And now she's saying that they had a marginal right
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: to be there. Oh, you were unauthorized, but you still
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: had a legal right to put parent into a situation
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: where he can now be accused of unlawfully killing h Like,
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: if she had known about this when she was queen,
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: she would have protected her countrymen, her poor innocent countrymen,
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: and fucking kicked the White Cloaks out and slapped them
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: on the way. If she had been queen and heard
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: about this incident at the time when she was literally queen.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: This is not at all how she would have responded
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: at the time.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: No, she's immensely disappointed that God is with the White Cloaks, But.
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: Here she is upholding the White Cloaks in a pregallad
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: state as having any amount of right to judge one
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: of her subjects, one of her subjects. Yeah, yeah, she
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: should be protecting her own people, but instead she's siding
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: with rich abusive men.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: Ay and making him a mercenary band. He never got
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: paid by anybody, he never worked. Who has he ever
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: been a mercenary band for?
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's literally a citizen wandering in the countryside of
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: his own country being attacked by an unauthorized paramilitary terrorist
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: force with a known history of kidnap and torture and death.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: They were literally going to kidnap him to their own country,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: And she's just like that seems reasonable.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: And like, where's more Gaye's outrage about you were operating
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: an unlicensed police force within my country. Nothing you do
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: is legal.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, every single thing you do is by definition illegal,
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: and any resistance to you is legal because that's what
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: reasonable anderman should do when terrorists are running around the
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: fucking countryside.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: And this is and even less, it's not like fuck,
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: it's not like they were, you know, like ICE is
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: at least authorized by the president on one level. These
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: are foreign troops.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is like if ICE went into Canada,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: it just started doing ship doing the exact same ship,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: but in Canada.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, for Mexico, Yeah, exactly, Like can you imagine
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: ICE in Mexico? Well, broad people, everywhere we did.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: We did do the whole taking over Venezuela thing. So yeah,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, just marching into another country and
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: taking over and deciding that we get to do everything
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: is kind of our brand. It has been our brand
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: with South America since forever.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but at least Canada doesn't have any oil that
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: we will wait, run Canada, run, run.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Run, completely unproblematic Canada that definitely doesn't have a parallel
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: sibling of all of our problems.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but they're smaller, so they did less bad things.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: I'm going to refer you to history, and I wonder
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: if we could it's so bad.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: The volume of bad things was less, is about all
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: I can say.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, I mean, yes, they were a place
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: that people ran away to after dealing with being chattel
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: slaves in the US. I mean there is that. I mean,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: you look at the Canadian relationship to its indigenous people,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: and I don't know, we're starting to get into oppression
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Olympics hair splitting. Yeah.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: All I'm saying is there were probably fewer Indigenous people
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: in Canada to murder.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: Well, a lot of Canada is very frozen, but I
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: have not deep dived that history enough to know if
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: that is true or not.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: I'm making a terrible, terrible analogy to be like, well,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: there was less people to murder, so they're more innocent.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: And I don't think, oh do I think we can
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: finish this chapter out?
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Oh so Paren calls out by our which is great.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: Parent says, is that why you told me to escape?
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Is that why you gave me the sharp rock? And
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Buyer goes, duh uh uh. And I do like that
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: because I feel like that helps solidify Galad going and
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: bornhauled both going. The hell is up with you? By
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: are your arguments are just really shaky? Like they're shaky,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: but they're really shaky.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: Which is also the other reason why he shouldn't have
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: fucking lost the trial.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so yeah, basically more Gaze passes it off
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: to Galad, hoping that her instruction of Galad has prepared
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: him to do a nice needle thread on not killing
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: Paren later and yeah, Gollad says, all right, I'm gonna
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: think about it and leaves us on just a weird
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: unsatisfying cliffhanger at the end of a weird unsatisfying trial.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: You're guilty, but we're not gonna do anything about it
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: because we need to. We need parent to be able
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: to save your life first before you make a decision
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: for plot for plot.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the Sanderson flail with the parent plot is
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: really really hitting some wild swings at this point. I
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: think it starts to kind of come back together after
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: he saves the White Cloaks. But this is this is
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: kind of the nay dear of this whole situation. Yeah,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: it gets a little better.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: Once we get rid of the White Cloaks. Paren gets
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: to be you know, anime, I'm behind you teleportation superpower
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: hero and I like that part. That's fun.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Once Goalade and the cool White Cloaks are just
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: another little unit in the mosaic that is Paren's army.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: It's it's better Goalad and Elaine together is more fun
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: that all comes after this. But this is really the
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: nay dear of this this plot, and I didn't like it,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: but I did enjoy the cathartic raging at both the
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: world and the chapter we got through. I hope we
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: didn't alienate too many listeners, but hopefully they just you know,
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: hit skip as necessary and we'll come back next week.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: We try not to, they'll too deep into politics. But
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: shit's going real bad right now in the US. The
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: parallels are way too appropriate for me to not bring
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: it up.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I try to use this space as a moment
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: to breathe away from that, but this particular chapter had
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: too many parallels to not just run with it. Sometimes,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: you know, as I often say, these books help me
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: understand the world, and sometimes you got to just lean
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: into the part where it hurts and see what comes
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: out in the course of purging that. So I hope
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: that the audience got some cathartic screaming out with us well.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: And just the climb to power is so so repetitive,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: right history rhymes. We see the same bullies doing the
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: same things. You know, Jordan wrote this not because he
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: could see the future, but because he could see the past.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: Right right exactly. And Sanderson, you know, for all of
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: his fumblings and flailings, does love the books that Robert
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: Jordan's said, does love the world that Robert Jordan's set up,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: and is doing his best to write how the story.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: Was going to end.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: And you know he can't get it all wrong, given
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: that it was a good faith effort.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: No, and yeah, and yes, some of it's right. We
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: did need this resolution to happen. I don't like the
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: way it happened, but I do think it needed to happen, and.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: It has happened clearly and definitively.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: In a way that like, yes, legally, But the real
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: thing happens when Paren rescues the White Cloaks. That's when
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: things really get resolved. And Gold comes up to him
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: and says, cool, I want to be part of your group.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: Now, will you please help me get to the last battle?
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: And that's the last I ever have to think about
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: the White Cloaks again.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because everything Gollad does, it's irrelevant after that
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: is Gollad as a family member, not Goalade as the
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: White Cloak leader.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Because he basically gives his leadership over to Paren, who
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: gives his leadership over to Agwayne or Elaine.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah and yeah, Goalad goes and hangs out with Elaine,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: talks with her, He gets together with Berylaine. He takes
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: on Demondred all the things he does, sands the white
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: Cloak cloud around him. They exist as part of the infantry,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: but they're just another little piece of patchwork on the
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: quilt that Paren has made.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: I guess once Bornhulled kills Byar, that's really the end
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: of this little that's at the.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: End of the battle. I think right as they're kind
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: of wrapping up the rescue, that's like one of the
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: final events of that section because Byar is the seed
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: that will forever be sprouting this problem. Once you cut
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: that out, now it's over. It's kind of like getting
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: rid of the dagger from Shadar logos like at the end, right,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: like there's this one last little spark, but if you
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: can get rid of it, then this evil is truly gone.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: And yeah, Buyer is that seed for Paren. So, yeah,
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: that was a journey.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: That was a journey.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: Thank you to the live audience for being here, and.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: Thank you for the recorded audience for sticking with us
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: till the end of this episode. Yeah, you are truly
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: the dedicated.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: Truly much gi u G. You go reward yourself with
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: a listen to however far we are along in podcast
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: at donut when you hear this, because that definitely is
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: light and fluffy and has no parallel to then, I'm like,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: I'm lying, it's it's also going to be a weird
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: mix of joy and screaming.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: I can't wait. All right, see you next time on
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: the wheelow Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: Bye bye.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: Please rate and review us on your podcast app and
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: consider supporting us on Patreon for ad free episodes. Watt
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: more podcasts from Fox and Raven Media, visit our website
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: at Foxendravenmedia dot com.