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BRIDE STABBED 20 TIMES RULED SUICIDE, PROSECUTOR BREAKS SILENCE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a bride to be with
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: one foot down the aisle, is stabbed twenty times, her
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: body riddled with bruises. How how is that ruled suicide?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: A special guest, a prosecutor from within the District Attorney's office,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: breaking his silence, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. I don't believe it.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I'm going on the record, Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and I am basing that on reams and reams of
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: evidence joining us an assistant district attorney who was within
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: the DA's office. The DA's office that did not invent
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: used to gate properly. But first I want to see
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: what I can learn from the nine to one one call. Listen,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: I just walked right part.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: She acts on the floor with blood everywhere. I want
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: to see, but please come, oh no, well no, please, Harry,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: please from I don't know. I can't tell you.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: Does you have to calm yourself down in order to
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: get you somehow?
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: at her right now. She I don't. I can't see anything,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: shouldn't there's nothing broken, She's please Ellie.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: You don't know where she's bleeding from, Ellie coming from.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: I think her head everywhere, everywhere. She might have fallen,
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: you know what happened. She may have slipped his blood
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: on the on the table. Her her piature is a
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: little purple. Okay, hold on the rest for.
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: Her on the phone.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Well, that's unusual, he says. There's blood everywhere. But when
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: authority arrived, they noticed it was an extremely neat scene
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and very little blood in light of the fact that
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: the victim, who was sitting up leaning against the kitchen
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: cabinets her feet slid out before her, had been stabbed
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: at least twenty times, including to the back of the neck,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: the back of the head, and more. And now we
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: are learning that there are bruises to the neck unrelated
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: to the stabs. Let that sink in. Why are there
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: bruises around Ellen's neck? That said more than I'm on
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: one call?
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: Listen for one splat rock road, Please carry.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Yes. I I went downstairs to work out.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: I came back up the.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Door and lashed my fiances inside. It wasn't she wasn't
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: an So after about a half hour I decided to
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: break it down. I see her now just on the
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: floor before she got fonding.
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: Okay, keep breathing.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: I can't look at her test.
• 3:12
  Speaker 6: I needed to calm down.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: I need to look at her test.
• 3:15
  Speaker 6: I really don't.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: I was going away. Look at her chest. She sent
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: on her bank.
• 3:22
  Speaker 7: Get her tests and tell me it is on up
• 3:24
  Speaker 7: and down, up and down.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: I don't see her moving.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: She's not lying down. She was not lying flat on
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: her back. Then, I don't want to call her, says
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: she's on her back. No, isn't it true? John Lucy
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: with me an all star panel including Ellen's parents, Josh
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: and Sandy, but with us Guy DeAndrea, a prosecutor in
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: the office who reviewed the case, been an hour who
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: is creating a book what happened to Ellen? Tom Brennan,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: consultant for the Enberg family, doctor Kendall Crown's renowned medical examiner,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: to John Lucy, journalist's pen Live and the Patriot News
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: of Harrisburg, author of Kill the Story, John Lucy, thank
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: you for being with us. She was not lying flat
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: on her back. And as a matter of fact, isn't
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: it true, John Lucy that blood had dried going from
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: the nose area across the face toward the ear there
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: was horizontal dried blood, which means she was not sitting
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: up when this happened, and when first responders got there,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: blood was already coagulated on the floor and her body
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: was cold to the touch and her fingers were turning blue.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: Isn't that true?
• 4:51
  Speaker 7: That is correct? Yes, she was at the crime scene.
• 4:55
  Speaker 7: The way it was photographed, she is slumped up against
• 4:58
  Speaker 7: the kitchen cabinet with a knife protruding, a ten inch
• 5:02
  Speaker 7: knife protruding from her chest and on the face. You
• 5:06
  Speaker 7: have the wrong way blood based on the position she
• 5:10
  Speaker 7: was found in, which means the conclusion is her body
• 5:16
  Speaker 7: was moved that at some point she was in that
• 5:19
  Speaker 7: flat on our back position, but somehow moved to be
• 5:23
  Speaker 7: slumped up against the cabinet.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: I like what you just said, Lucy. You said the
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: wrong way blood. I've never heard it put like that,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: like a wrong way driver, the wrong way blood. That
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: captures it. The bride to be Ellen Greenberg in life
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: is a beauty again joining us an all star panel,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: but I think we could all do with another. Listen
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: to the nine to one one call. No matter how
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: many times you listen to it, you can always learn
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: something new. Listen. Okay, her chest same.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: Over for sure, yeeld down by her side.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, Kelly, please, you can't freak out.
• 6:04
  Speaker 8: Okay, I'm trying to.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to sure won't come off as a zipper.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: Oh alright, she stabbed herself land she fell a knife?
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Oh no, her knight's picking out a nice sticking out of.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: Her hundred head stand it though, I guess, so.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know where she's felling it. I don't know.
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  Speaker 5: Okay, well, don't take it.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's just me. But if I came in and
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: I found I didn't even say the words my husband stabbed,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: my first thought would not be he stabbed himself. My
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: first thought would not be he fell on the knife.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: That just would not be my first thought. But I'm projecting,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: and you're not allowed to do that in a court
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: of law. Sandy and Josh Greenberg joining us. This is
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: These are Ellen's parents and you can find them on
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: Facebook at Justice for Ellen FB and at this point
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: they are broken and they are writing their own checks
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: out of their life savings to continue investigating their daughter's homicide.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: You can find them a go fund me, Justice for
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: Ellen standing and Josh, thank you for being with us.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: This case is still not resolved, still not resolved. I
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: want to ask you, and I don't even know how
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: you can sit there calmly. I admire you, and I'm
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: learning from you every day every time I'm around you,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: and I treasure the time that we were together in
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: the flesh. I want to know, before I get into
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: all of these facts, how do you keep going? And
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: remember a lot of crime victims are going to hear
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: what you have to say right now tonight. Tell us, how,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Sandy do you keep going?
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: Well?
• 8:05
  Speaker 8: Right now, it's thirteen and a half years and we've
• 8:08
  Speaker 8: been up against tons of opposition, But I've never felt
• 8:13
  Speaker 8: so empowered that I really do feel we will have
• 8:19
  Speaker 8: justice for Ellen, and hopefully the things that we've been
• 8:23
  Speaker 8: fighting for will help other crime victims.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Joining us an all star panel, and I want to
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: remind everyone in our jurisprudence, no one is guilty until
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: they have gone before a jury of their peers and
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: brought on their own evidence that they so wish had
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: tested the state's evidence, and there is a guilty verdict.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: No one, no matter what you may think, is guilty
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: in our country unless proven so in a court of
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: law in this case has been named a person of interest.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: No one has been named a suspect. That said to
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Guy DeAndrea joining us, former prosecutor in the office who
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: reviewed the Ellen Greenberg case, now a high profile lawyer
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: at Laffy Buch DeAndrea Reich and Ryan Guy DeAndrea, thank
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: you for being with us. Now. I'm just looking and
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: listening to the nine one one call, and we've got
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: reams of it. My first reaction if I were to fine,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: let's just say Jackie sitting right here with me in
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: the studio, if I found her stab dead, my first
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: reaction would be, oh, my stars, she stabbed herself dead.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't even think that. I called Nie on one
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: and I would assume she had been murdered for Pete's sake.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: But I want to move you from that moment up
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: to the time when you we're asked specifically to review
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: the Ellen Greenberg case after reviewing the file, and I
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: want you to think very carefully before you answer, after
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: reviewing the file in full, do you believe Ellen killed herself?
• 10:20
  Speaker 9: I've had now I started looking into this file. Nancy
• 10:24
  Speaker 9: Grace back in twenty fifteen, and of course I left
• 10:26
  Speaker 9: the office two years later, but I have stayed actively
• 10:29
  Speaker 9: involved because I want so desperately for the truth and
• 10:33
  Speaker 9: for the Greenbergs to get justice, and the justice that
• 10:36
  Speaker 9: I look for is truth, right, and so I stayed
• 10:39
  Speaker 9: very actively involved in terms of keeping up with the Greenbergs,
• 10:43
  Speaker 9: with Tom Brennan, and so from twenty fifteen until now
• 10:46
  Speaker 9: twenty twenty four, with everything that has come out, I
• 10:50
  Speaker 9: can definitively say, as a former homicide prosecutor that this
• 10:55
  Speaker 9: was not a suicide.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: The sheer number of stab woons, twenty stab wounds, including
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: to the back of the head, the back of the neck.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: You know women, well anybody can't even zip up a
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: back zipper by themselves many times, so look look at this.
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  Speaker 1: No way was this suicide. And we also have the
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: unresolved bruising to the neck that is unrelated to a
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: stab wound. Somebody or somehow she got bruising to her neck,
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  Speaker 1: Guy DeAndrea, that is not connected to Oh my stars,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: these bruises. She's covered covered in bruises.
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  Speaker 9: Guy, I was told when I when I reviewed this file,
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  Speaker 9: these are bruising, which is so important to understand in
• 11:52
  Speaker 9: all stages of healing, meaning that these abuses, these bruisings
• 11:58
  Speaker 9: happened at different peace periods of time. These are clear
• 12:02
  Speaker 9: signs of abuse or assault that were inflicted upon her.
• 12:05
  Speaker 9: And the best answer I got when asked about this
• 12:08
  Speaker 9: is and I can't even make this up. Nancy Grace.
• 12:10
  Speaker 9: She did pilates and.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Put him up. Put him up. That you got a
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  Speaker 1: woman dad stabbed twenty times in the back of the neck,
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  Speaker 1: the back of the head, her body covered in bruises.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: She was making a fruit salad in the middle of
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: making lunch. She had come up earlier that day because
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: of a blizzard outside. She called all of her children's parents,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: first grade teacher to make sure they all got home okay.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Then she started making a fruit salad. She's still this
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: is very probative to me, and I gotta think it through, guy,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: I gotta think it through what it means. In one hand,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: she still had a dish rag from making the fruit salad.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: She in the middle holding the dish rug making the salad.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: She stabbed herself. No, she was holding that when somebody
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  Speaker 1: else stabbed her and got I mean, there's just so
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  Speaker 1: much I can't even get it all out. One of
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  Speaker 1: the stabs to the back of the neck was so
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  Speaker 1: severe it actually went through the skin and sliced the
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: dura du r of her spinal cord. And at best
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: she would have felt nothing, but most likely would have
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: become incapacitated. That was not the last stab. The last
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  Speaker 1: stab had to be in the chest because with her
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: other hand, her right hand, it was still on the
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: knife kitchen towel and left hand knife in the other hand.
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  Speaker 1: So does somebody actually want me to believe this girl
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  Speaker 1: in the middle of her fruit salad stabbed herself twenty times,
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  Speaker 1: even after she's incapacitated, and then plunges a knife in
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  Speaker 1: her own chest. Guy, is that what they want me
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: to believe?
• 14:09
  Speaker 9: It's not believable. It defies all logic. And the last
• 14:13
  Speaker 9: stab wound we don't know the order. Like you said,
• 14:15
  Speaker 9: the last stab wound was the one to the chest,
• 14:17
  Speaker 9: and now that we know her spinal column was pierced.
• 14:20
  Speaker 9: To your point, not only would she be incapacitated, she
• 14:23
  Speaker 9: would have been rendered immediately incapacitated by that stab wound.
• 14:27
  Speaker 9: And who, in the midst of stabbing themselves also takes
• 14:31
  Speaker 9: the knife and smacks themselves on the back of the
• 14:34
  Speaker 9: head because she has a huge blunt forced trauma to
• 14:38
  Speaker 9: the back of her head.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: A Philly teacher found stab to death in her own apartment.
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: Her death ruled a suicide despite stabs in the back
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: of her head.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Joining me in all star panel to make sense of
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: what we know, Ryan now, but this is not over.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide. I would take anything
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: on it. And this gibberish, this blathering about searching painless
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: ways to commit suicide, I can guarantee you stabbing yourself
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: twenty times is not a painless way to commit suicide.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: The FBI did a very extensive search of her computers,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: her laptops, her cell phone, the works, and found no
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: evidence at all of any suicidal searches. As a matter
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: of fact, to Beney now joining us, co author of
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: What Happened to Ellen, Benay, isn't it true that what
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: was found on her computer were searches of photos, images,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: and information related to planning a wedding.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: That's right, Nancy, And I want to just add so
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: not only was Ellen preparing food and seeing to her students,
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: she had filled up her car with gas. This was
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: not a person who was ending her life. This was
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: a person who was living her life. Yes, she had
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: searched for things about her wedding, and her therapist said
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: there was no suicidal ideation. Ellen was not suicidal. There
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: was no evidence whatsoever from anywhere that Ellen was suicidal,
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: a fact.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: That psychiatrist doctor Ellen Berman is very clear in her
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: written records. No suicidal thoughts, manifestations, no verbal discussion of suicide. Nothing.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: At most, she was having anxiety as it relates to
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: the wedding. Now, let me be clear about something to
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Josh Greenberg, this is Ellen's dad. She was a daddy's girl. Josh.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Isn't it true that she Ellen and Sam had moved
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: in together into this luxury venice loft apartments and condos
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: and she was very very happy moving forward, ostensibly moving
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: forward with the wedding. But isn't it true, Josh, that
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: prior to her death she suddenly called home and wanted
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: to move home to Harrisburg. Isn't that true?
• 17:31
  Speaker 7: Yes?
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: Emphatically yes, and unexplainable to.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Me and Josh at the time. You gave her some
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: very good advice. You said, listen, if you're anxious about
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: school or you want to transfer schools, finish out at
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the end of the year. Just finish. Don't leave midterm,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: because that would have been impossible for her to move
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: back home to Harrisburg. And there she is living where
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: they were at Venice Loft and a very highly no
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: crime rate, zero crime rate. It's going to throw that in.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: So you said wait it out, and then of course, yeah,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: then come home if you want to, but don't do
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: it now, finish the year out. You told her that
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: because you didn't want her, I assume to get a
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: reputation of leaving in the middle of the school year.
• 18:22
  Speaker 7: I had two things in my mind. Help my daughter,
• 18:27
  Speaker 7: and I couldn't because I didn't know what was psychologically
• 18:29
  Speaker 7: going on in her mind.
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: And I wanted not to become not hirable.
• 18:35
  Speaker 7: Let's call it, for lack of a better term.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Josh, I had a similar thing happen. So maybe I'm
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: projecting and correct me if I'm wrong. I don't mind
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: being wrong. My first job out of law school, I had,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: let me just say, to put it euphemistically, a very
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: very recalcigrant judge that I clerked for, and there were
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: many times said I wanted to quit, and my dad said,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: don't you finished that clerkship and then go to the
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: next thing. And I did, I did what he told
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: me to do. I get it. At any time, and
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: she spoke to you guys every day and called her
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: mom multiple times during the day. At any time, did
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: she ever state to you I want to kill myself?
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: You know sometimes people say that in jest. But did
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: she ever say anything like that.
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: Came No, No, that never came up, not even close
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: to it.
• 19:37
  Speaker 7: Home was as far as.
• 19:39
  Speaker 10: Is Ellen Greenberg Listen Ellen Greenberg is the first grade
• 19:45
  Speaker 10: teacher in Philadelphia. At twenty seven years old. She and
• 19:48
  Speaker 10: longtime boyfriend Sam Goldberg have just sent out Saved the
• 19:52
  Speaker 10: day cards for their upcoming wedding. A blizzard is bearing
• 19:55
  Speaker 10: down on Philadelphia and school has dismissed everyone early, and
• 20:00
  Speaker 10: on her way home, Ellen stops to fill up her
• 20:02
  Speaker 10: gas tank. Once she's home with her fiance Sam Goldberg,
• 20:06
  Speaker 10: leaves around four forty five pm to work out in
• 20:09
  Speaker 10: the apartment complex gym. When Sam arrives back less than
• 20:12
  Speaker 10: an hour later, the door is locked from the inside.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, the door locked from the inside. Joining me right now.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Tom Brennan, private eye consultant with the Greenberg family. He's
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: been on the case from the get go, extremely loyal.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: He's standing by the case and the Greenberg's Tom Brennan
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: explain to me about what kind of lock that was.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: It's my understanding as one like you see a lot
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: of times in a hotel, it's got to swing over,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: and you swing it over and you can open the
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: door from the outside about that much. But then that
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: stops it.
• 20:45
  Speaker 11: Yes, you can. It's called a swinging bar lock, and
• 20:52
  Speaker 11: you'll find them in any type of hotel or motel.
• 20:56
  Speaker 11: But in order to disengage unlocked that lock, one or
• 21:02
  Speaker 11: the other piece has to become dismounted. Okay. And one
• 21:07
  Speaker 11: of the first things I looked at was the door. Okay,
• 21:12
  Speaker 11: this is a particle board door, and you can see
• 21:15
  Speaker 11: the damage to it and down below on the floor.
• 21:20
  Speaker 11: In the other photographs there should have been some particle,
• 21:23
  Speaker 11: you know, wood particles, and there's one screw missing. That
• 21:27
  Speaker 11: other screw should have been on the floor. Well, none
• 21:30
  Speaker 11: of those things were came into view. They were they
• 21:34
  Speaker 11: weren't there. That that indicated to me that you know,
• 21:42
  Speaker 11: if you would put your shoulder to that door, one
• 21:45
  Speaker 11: or the other piece would have had to come off,
• 21:48
  Speaker 11: would have had been dismounted from either the door jam
• 21:51
  Speaker 11: or the door. The Pennsylvania State Police sent me to
• 21:57
  Speaker 11: lock school and okay, and I did the servetish's entries
• 22:03
  Speaker 11: for the department, and I know a lot about lucks
• 22:06
  Speaker 11: and that that okay is not that's what we refer
• 22:13
  Speaker 11: to as stagey. Okay, it's made to look like okay, Uh,
• 22:20
  Speaker 11: it was damaged.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: What happened to beloved Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The Pennsylvania
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: Supreme Court agrees to review the case amidst a controversial ruling.
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: Forensic pathologist doctor Wayne k Ross is commissioned by the
• 22:44
  Speaker 6: Greenbergs to review the case. Doctor Ross says there's evidence
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: of strangulation. Ross says there's a mark over the front
• 22:50
  Speaker 6: of the neck and in the strap muscles over the
• 22:52
  Speaker 6: right side of the neck, claiming these patterns are compatible
• 22:54
  Speaker 6: with a manual strangulation. Ross also points out the number
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: of bruises over different parts of Greenberg's are consistent with
• 23:01
  Speaker 6: the repeated meetings. He writes, it is my opinion that
• 23:03
  Speaker 6: the investigating authority should pursue this case as a homicide.
• 23:07
  Speaker 6: It is further my opinion, to a reasonable degree of
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: medical certainty, that the manner of death is a homicide.
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: The scene findings were indicative of a homicide.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: Again, joining me an esteemed medical examiner, doctor Kendall Crowns,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: the chief medical Examiner of Terran County. That's of Fort Worth.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Never lack of business there, that Morgue lecturer at the
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, Doctor Kendall Crown's thank
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: you for being with us, Doctor Crowns. The medical examiner,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: which is another can of worms. I want to talk
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: to you about. Initially, wait for it, rule this case
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: a homicide initially, Doctor Osborne. Then after a secret meeting,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: I can't even find out who was at the meeting
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: between police representatives and representatives from your office, Dandrea, your
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: old office from the DA's office, and police go to
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: the medical examiner after he rules homicide, and in that meeting,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: somehow the ruling was changed to suicide after he ruled
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: it homicide. And I'm going to talk to you later
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: about being pressured to change a cod cause of death ruling.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: But first and more important, the substance of this case.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: I want you to talk to me if you don't
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: mind about the strap muscles over the right side of
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg's neck and signs of strangulation. What does that mean.
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: Signs of strangulation are often bruises about the neck in
• 24:56
  Speaker 5: the area, especially when it's a manual strangulation, so someone
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: grabs you by the and are stranguling you or with
• 25:01
  Speaker 5: both hands. Usually your fingernails will dig into the skin.
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: They will leave bruises semi lunar type shapes, which is
• 25:10
  Speaker 5: the nails digging in. But you'll get bruises on the neck.
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: And then the strap muscles in the neck are the
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: muscles of the anterior neck or the front of your
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: neck that are going along these areas of your neck,
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: and they are often in manual strangulations. You will see
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: hemorrhages in those as well. So when you see bruises
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: on the neck with strangular with hemorrhages and the strap muscles,
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: it makes you very suspicious for a string of manual strangulation.
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: Other things you'll look for is but tiki are little
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: tiny dot hemorrhages in the eyes as well. Don't always
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: necessarily see those, but again those are signs of strangulation.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Hold on, I didn't want to interrupt to you. I
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: was trying to drink in every word. But I want
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: to be clear this forensic pathologist, doctor Wayne k Ross,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: is hiring. You know how much money the Greenberg's have
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: spent trying to investigate this and clear their daughter's name.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: This forensic pathologist says, there is evince of strangulation. There
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: is a mark on the front of the neck and
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: in the strap muscles over the right side of the neck.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: And I would like to emphasize the word and it's
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: not just a mark on the front of the neck
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: that is combined with patterns compatible with manual strangulation by hand,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: not ligature on the strap muscles. Could you show me
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: the strap muscles again, doctor Kendle Crowns.
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: Certainly. The strap muscles are the muscles that are on
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: the front of your neck and they all sit here
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: and here, so you'll see any time in a manual
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: strangulation the strap muscles will show injury from the hand digging.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Into stated Doctor Kendall Crowns that this would be indicative
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: of strangulation. My question to you is how else could
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: they get there? If it's not strangulation, who's gonna get
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: bruising right here? How does that happen?
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: Pilates well, not pilates unless it's aggressive plates. I don't know,
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: but you could get a punch to the neck that could.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Have you ever even done pilates?
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: I have not, nor have I done goat yoga.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Then you don't what aggressive pilates are you even talking about.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I've done pilates. It was painful, but nothing touched my neck.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: I can guarantee you that understood.
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: But so I don't think it's pilates. I do think
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: it could be strangulation. It could be a punch to
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: the neck, especially with all these stab wounds that you
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: have involved. It could be a control as well.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: You're the last person I want to argue with because
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: I know I'm in over my head. But how could
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: a punch to the neck end up in bruising on
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: the strap muscles? That would be two marks. It didn't
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: say strap muscle, it said must sold. So how could
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: one punch result in multiple bruising?
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: Well, your assumption of one punch was going to bruise
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: one side, but you know you could punch multiple times.
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: It is a stabbing, it's a melee type situation, so
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: a lot could be going on. Now strangulation makes more sense,
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: But you did ask could something else cause it? Yes,
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: blunk force injuries. Multiple strikes to the neck could cause
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: that as well.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, doctor Kendall crowns have she received Let's just pretend
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: that theory is true for a moment. If she received
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: punches to the neck, would those be the bruises that
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: you would expect to see.
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: Not likely. The bruising that I've seen in the pictures
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: looks more consistent with a manual strangulation than anything else.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: And very quickly, let me follow up with Tom Brennan.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: I don't in the original medical examiner's report, did he
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Osbourne noticed the bridges to the neck.
• 29:07
  Speaker 11: There's there's no indication in the autopsy report that that
• 29:13
  Speaker 11: states that. The only time so that was.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: Completely ignored and would have indicated strangulation.
• 29:20
  Speaker 11: No, the only time, the only time the neck was
• 29:25
  Speaker 11: addressed was when doctor Wayne Ross and I were reviewing
• 29:31
  Speaker 11: the autopsy photos, and in the autopsy photos we found
• 29:36
  Speaker 11: the damage to the neck and the indication that there
• 29:43
  Speaker 11: were some It looked like a nail mark on the
• 29:46
  Speaker 11: right side.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Of the neck, a nail mark. Ellen Greenberg had a
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: nail mark, fingernail mark on her neck. Okay Brennan, this
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: is a yes, no lightning round are you Are you
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: sure that you and the pathologists saw a nail mark,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: n Ai l Mark.
• 30:07
  Speaker 11: Yes, we took a photograph of okay.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns. I knew there was bruising to the neck,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: did not know there was a fingernail mark. Does that
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: change your assumption about aggressive pilates or a punch to
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: the neck.
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: So yeah, some nail marks again would be from digging
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: the hand in They leave these kind of semi lunar
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: marks that would be a manual strangulation.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Straight back to Guy DeAndrea, former prosecutor and the office
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: who personally reviewed combed through with a fine toothcomb the
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg file now lawyer Lafey Bucci DeAndrea Right, and Ryan, Guy,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: I feel sick. This is the same feeling I would
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: have in court talking to the medical examiner and hearing
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: the evidence and then look over at the defendant and
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: they would be climbing some the crazy thing way in.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, don't you just want to jump out of
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: your skin hearing all that?
• 31:11
  Speaker 9: Absolutely, Nancy, and in reviewing the medical examiner's report, I
• 31:15
  Speaker 9: had so many issues. Once I dug in and investigated
• 31:18
  Speaker 9: and now learning everything I'm learning, you know up to
• 31:21
  Speaker 9: this point, it's it's baffling to me. And one of
• 31:24
  Speaker 9: the things you know that I've always struggled with, and
• 31:26
  Speaker 9: I know you know this fact, But in the Medical
• 31:28
  Speaker 9: Examiner's report there's talk of a neuropathologist, doctor Rourke reviewing
• 31:34
  Speaker 9: doing the neuropathological examination that never happened. I discovered that
• 31:38
  Speaker 9: never happened. So why is it in the medical Examiner's
• 31:42
  Speaker 9: report as a fact.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna try to make this quick. I'm gonna
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: call in Bena an Hour with me. Bene an Hour,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: who together we were writing what happened to Ellen? Bena,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: we have gone over and over and over Doctor Rourke Adams,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: who Osbourne the medical examiner says, Yeah, I brought her
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: in on this because she's a neuro brain neck pathologist
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: and I wanted her to look at the dura, that
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: part of Ellen's spine that was nicked. Nothing. And then
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: isn't it subn a hour that doctor Rourke Adams doesn't
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: remember this ever happening, and she didn't put in her notes,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: she didn't put her daytimer, and her practice was to
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: always bill. I mean the woman's got to make a living.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: She didn't submit a bill. There's no record this ever happened,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: and Rourke Adams says, I have no recollection of that
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: ever happening. Isn't that Shubene hour?
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: That is absolutely true, tragically and infuriatingly. This is just
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: one of the many things in this case that makes
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: no sense, that defies logic, that defies authenticity, that defides
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: how everything is handled in these cases. I want to
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: just say something about the nail mark. Joseph Scott Morgan
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: in his investigation for you, talked about the nail mark
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: was in the bruising and what he said, this is
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: a quote. What we see in a classic strangulation. Are
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: these classic nail marks like a rake moving through the skin.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: This indicates a struggle.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Guy DeAndrea, when you saw and you believed in your
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: heart of hearts that this is not a suicide, did
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: you tell anybody in the DA's office.
• 33:35
  Speaker 9: I did, and my superiors, who were at least my
• 33:39
  Speaker 9: immediate superior, was very supportive of me doing the investigation,
• 33:45
  Speaker 9: and she asked what do I want to do. And
• 33:47
  Speaker 9: at the time I didn't know that I was going
• 33:49
  Speaker 9: to leave to join private practice, but we were just
• 33:51
  Speaker 9: going to wait for the independent neuropathological autopsy that was
• 33:57
  Speaker 9: going to be performed on that piece of the spinal column.
• 34:00
  Speaker 9: And then I was under the impression that, I mean,
• 34:02
  Speaker 9: I even think if I had stayed sadly, that this
• 34:04
  Speaker 9: would have been changed. Back in twenty seventeen. That is
• 34:07
  Speaker 9: what was being indicated to me, not just be my office,
• 34:09
  Speaker 9: but also by the medical examiner's office, meaning at a minimum,
• 34:13
  Speaker 9: it's going to be undetermined, but potentially depending on what
• 34:16
  Speaker 9: the neuropath says, homicide. And that was seven years ago.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: To John Lucy joining us from Panlin and the Patriot
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: News of Harrisburg, who's been on the case from the
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: very beginning, response, how can this stand? How can we
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: stand for this?
• 34:32
  Speaker 7: Well, unfortunately, in Pennsylvania, medical examiners and corners have a
• 34:38
  Speaker 7: wide discretion in determining the manner of death. And that's
• 34:43
  Speaker 7: the crux of the court case that is now before
• 34:45
  Speaker 7: the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania to change that. That's the
• 34:49
  Speaker 7: odyssey that the Greenbergs have been on, spending at last count,
• 34:54
  Speaker 7: seven hundred thousand dollars of their own money to get
• 34:57
  Speaker 7: to this doorstep of justice, and then there.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Is the secret meeting, and I just want to throw
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: out there and anybody on the panel that knows about
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: this jump in. Please, we need everybody in the brainchest
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: jumping in. Then there is this secret meeting with the
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: medical examiner. He has he determined this to be a homicide. Obviously.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Then there's a secret meeting with police and DAS, and
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: suddenly the ruling is changed to Tom Brennan, PI, consultant
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: for the Greenberg family, what happened? And is it true?
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: A female district attorney that was in that meeting has
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: been given immunity. You do that when you're looking at
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: a criminal charge.
• 35:41
  Speaker 11: Yes, she's been given high what they call high immunity,
• 35:45
  Speaker 11: because we were going to name her in the suit.
• 35:49
  Speaker 11: So she's been given high immunity and we couldn't name
• 35:53
  Speaker 11: her as one of the defendants in the lawsuit.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not asking you her name, but do you know
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: her name?
• 36:01
  Speaker 11: Yes?
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Guy, DeAndrea, help me. I don't understand it, and I
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: don't understand why this is not being changed. It's so
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: obvious you told the district attorney's office this is wrong,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: and nobody did anything and still haven't done anything.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Why.
• 36:20
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean that's a great question. And you know,
• 36:22
  Speaker 9: ultimately though, it's the medical examiners who have to change it. Sadly,
• 36:26
  Speaker 9: the DIA's office would have no authority to do that.
• 36:28
  Speaker 9: And unless the Medical Examiner's office changes it. I mean,
• 36:32
  Speaker 9: you know this as the prosecutor, how do you prosecute
• 36:34
  Speaker 9: a homicide when it's ruled a suicide?
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 36:37
  Speaker 9: And I asked, if you want me to tell you
• 36:39
  Speaker 9: about that meeting about why it was changed from homicide
• 36:42
  Speaker 9: to suicide.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I asked them, yes, tell me.
• 36:44
  Speaker 9: Yeah. They told me that the assigned detective went to
• 36:49
  Speaker 9: them and said, this would be an impossibility to be
• 36:53
  Speaker 9: a suicide, me, excuse me, a homicide because the door
• 36:57
  Speaker 9: was an old fashioned dead bolt that locked into the frame,
• 37:00
  Speaker 9: Like if I grew up in a house like that,
• 37:02
  Speaker 9: you know, and if you can't breach that door, and
• 37:04
  Speaker 9: if you do breach it, you're taking the whole door
• 37:06
  Speaker 9: off the hinges. And so that's what he convinced the
• 37:09
  Speaker 9: medical examiner. Now, when I debunked that, they had a
• 37:11
  Speaker 9: million other excuses as to why it wasn't a homicide,
• 37:15
  Speaker 9: But that was the answer, the singular answer that was
• 37:18
  Speaker 9: disprovable at looking at a single photograph right, and so
• 37:22
  Speaker 9: right from the jump I knew there was something off here.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: How did you debunk the theory about the door?
• 37:27
  Speaker 9: Yeah, so I looked at the photographs and I said,
• 37:29
  Speaker 9: wait a second, why is this? This is a lot.
• 37:31
  Speaker 9: This is not a dead bult by any stretch of
• 37:33
  Speaker 9: anyone's imagination. How is it that if you breach this door,
• 37:37
  Speaker 9: one either one of those pieces isn't on the ground.
• 37:40
  Speaker 9: But putting that aside, I said to the medical examiner,
• 37:43
  Speaker 9: not to be silly, but google it. You can google
• 37:45
  Speaker 9: this right now on the YouTube and find out that
• 37:48
  Speaker 9: you can use a hangar, a stick of gum, slam
• 37:50
  Speaker 9: the door too hard, use a ruler, do all sorts
• 37:53
  Speaker 9: of things to either lock or unlock this door from
• 37:57
  Speaker 9: the outside. So don't tell me that no one could
• 38:00
  Speaker 9: have gotten in or gotten out if this thing is latched. So,
• 38:03
  Speaker 9: if that's the reason that this was moved or changed
• 38:06
  Speaker 9: from a homicide to a suicide, nonsense, change it back.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Yeay. I wrote a book, Don't Be a Victim, and
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: part of it is about traveling and how to keep
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: yourself safe in a hotel room. We actually did the
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: experiment on a door like that. It's not impenetrable. Okay,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: by far you're I mean, if I can do it,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: anybody can do it. Guy DeAndrea, how do you feel
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: speaking out against the medical Examiner's ruling because you're up
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: against a lot of opposition. I mean, this goes all
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: the way up to Shapiro because he is the one
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: that said, h double ln oh, I'm not touching it
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: with a ten foot pole. It was his duty to
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: touch it.
• 38:57
  Speaker 9: Yeah, And Nancy, I really I've always prided myself elf
• 39:00
  Speaker 9: and I mean this and not to be sappy, but
• 39:03
  Speaker 9: on justice and what it means to me is the truth.
• 39:05
  Speaker 9: And if the truth, which is not but if the
• 39:07
  Speaker 9: truth is suicide, then it's suicide. But do it the
• 39:09
  Speaker 9: right way.
• 39:10
  Speaker 7: But the truth is what justice is.
• 39:12
  Speaker 9: And when people are looking, how can anyone with a
• 39:15
  Speaker 9: straight face, now, in twenty twenty four, quite frankly, it
• 39:18
  Speaker 9: should have been a long time ago, but in twenty
• 39:20
  Speaker 9: twenty four, with all of this evidence, actual evidence, how
• 39:23
  Speaker 9: can anyone comfortably sleep knowing that they've said this is
• 39:26
  Speaker 9: a suicide. It's it's inexplainable, it's inexcusable.
• 39:30
  Speaker 7: It's inexcusable.
• 39:32
  Speaker 9: The evidence is clear, and I do not understand why
• 39:35
  Speaker 9: it's taking the Greenbergs to fight tooth and now the
• 39:38
  Speaker 9: fortitude they have to keep this fight going, just for justice,
• 39:42
  Speaker 9: the truth to be told.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: If you know or think you know what happened in
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: this case, if you lived in the building, if you
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: observed anything, please call one eight hundred four seven two
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: eight four seven seven repeat one hundred four seven two
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: eight four seven seven. I'm not even going to bother
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: to give you the AG's number, eight hundred four seven
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: two eight four seven seven. Hey Shapiro, you don't like it,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: come at me, Anty Grace signing off good night, then