Latest / Statutes & Stethoscopes | Trial Lessons for Medical Injury Lawyers / The Truth About Medical Malpractice Cases Nobody Talks About. Why Compassion Still Matters ft. Alana Anzalone | Ep. 2

Transcript

The Truth About Medical Malpractice Cases Nobody Talks About. Why Compassion Still Matters ft. Alana Anzalone | Ep. 2 · Statutes & Stethoscopes | Trial Lessons for Medical Injury Lawyers

• 0:00
  Alana Anzalone: I can't truly understand how someone's life is affected until I connect with them on a deeper level.
• 0:05
  Alana Anzalone: All of us who are standing in front of a jury or opposing counsel is doing our client a disservice if they are not spending the time to truly connect with them in their life to understand why they deserve what we're asking for.
• 0:19
  Tracy Liberatore: That's Alana Anzalone, a personal injury trial lawyer and founder of Anzalone Law Offices in Colorado.
• 0:26
  Tracy Liberatore: She believes the strongest advocacy comes from truly understanding your client and having the confidence to represent them in a way that feels authentic to you.
• 0:35
  Alana Anzalone: Don't get lost in being somebody else.
• 0:37
  Alana Anzalone: You're in this field because you were drawn to it, and use your own authenticity to represent your clients in whatever way works for you.
• 0:45
  Tracy Liberatore: In this episode, you will learn how deeper client connection strengthens trial advocacy, how to balance compassion with relentless courtroom advocacy, and why authenticity and working from your own values can make you a stronger, more sustainable trial lawyer.
• 1:02
  Tracy Liberatore: Welcome to Statutes and Stethoscopes, the show for attorneys who know that winning a case is only part of the job, and that reading the medical record right matters just as much as what happens in the courtroom.
• 1:15
  Tracy Liberatore: In each episode, I sit down with trial attorneys, forensic pathologists, and expert witnesses who have lived the work of turning a chart into a case.
• 1:24
  Tracy Liberatore: We move past the theory to examine how a record actually gets built, tested, and defended because the chart never lies.
• 1:32
  Tracy Liberatore: I'm your host, Tracy Libertori.
• 1:34
  Tracy Liberatore: Let's get into today's conversation.
• 1:36
  Tracy Liberatore: So, Alana, you said something that really struck me at one point.
• 1:40
  Tracy Liberatore: Without connection, it's impossible to truly advocate for your clients.
• 1:44
  Tracy Liberatore: Tell us that what that means in practice.
• 1:47
  Tracy Liberatore: How does connection change the way you try a case?
• 1:50
  Alana Anzalone: It all comes down to the fact that our role, um, what we're being hired for, is to be the voice of somebody whose life or their family um life has changed in a significant way to them.
• 2:05
  Alana Anzalone: Um and what our job is, is to understand that because what may affect someone's life in one way doesn't affect someone else.
• 2:16
  Alana Anzalone: They may not find um, they may not resonate with how you know your client's life has been affected.
• 2:22
  Alana Anzalone: And I can't truly understand how someone's life is affected until I connect with them on a deeper level.
• 2:29
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and so all of us who are standing in front of a jury or opposing counsel or um an insurance company is doing our client a disservice if they are not spending the time to truly connect with them in their life to understand why they deserve what we're asking for.
• 2:48
  Alana Anzalone: So um, I don't feel right uh standing up in front of somebody and saying my client deserves something without really knowing what they're going through.
• 2:55
  Alana Anzalone: So tell their story.
• 2:59
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah.
• 2:59
  Alana Anzalone: It's something I need to do to be able to confidently stand there and ask somebody for money for them.
• 3:05
  Tracy Liberatore: You represent victims of someone else's wrongdoing.
• 3:08
  Tracy Liberatore: And when you sit across from an injured client, what matters most to you in that first meeting?
• 3:13
  Alana Anzalone: Again, it gets back to connection, right?
• 3:15
  Alana Anzalone: Like I want I want them to feel connected to me.
• 3:18
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and I also want to feel connected to them.
• 3:21
  Alana Anzalone: I will call out if a connection doesn't exist, right?
• 3:24
  Alana Anzalone: If if if I'm not the right attorney for them or they don't believe I'm the right attorney for them, I'm not gonna let my ego get in the way of that.
• 3:32
  Alana Anzalone: Um, they deserve the person that's gonna properly represent them.
• 3:36
  Alana Anzalone: However, I will say that my intakes aren't set in an hour.
• 3:42
  Alana Anzalone: They're not set for 30 minutes.
• 3:43
  Alana Anzalone: They get as much time with me as they want, um, even if I'm not gonna take a case, whether it's, you know, for whatever reason.
• 3:50
  Alana Anzalone: Um and so when I'm sitting across from somebody who I've never met before with this situation that has changed their life, whether big or small, in someone else's eyes, it's big to them.
• 4:04
  Alana Anzalone: And so, you know, everyone who's sitting in my office or these days on Zoom across from me is getting my, you know, 100% preferred attention on a human level.
• 4:17
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and I think that that's kind of one of my superpowers is that I I really do try to connect with people on a human level to really understand what what their life challenges have been.
• 4:29
  Tracy Liberatore: All right, we'll get back to the show in one second.
• 4:31
  Tracy Liberatore: But real quick, how many spreadsheets is your practice currently held together by?
• 4:36
  Tracy Liberatore: That's how I ran Med Legal Pro for years, across 50 plus experts and hundreds of active cases.
• 4:44
  Tracy Liberatore: And the part that worried me was the conflict checking.
• 4:47
  Tracy Liberatore: A conflict you miss doesn't announce itself.
• 4:50
  Tracy Liberatore: It turns up months later when you're deep into a case file, and the fix is expensive.
• 4:55
  Tracy Liberatore: So I built Conflict Pro.
• 4:57
  Tracy Liberatore: It runs a two-level check before you take the case, and it keeps your experts, your case tracking, your billing, and your e-signatures in one login.
• 5:06
  Tracy Liberatore: There's a free trial and no card is needed.
• 5:08
  Tracy Liberatore: So if that's a risk you'd rather stop carrying, scan the QR code on the screen or click the link in the show notes.
• 5:14
  Tracy Liberatore: And now, back to the show.
• 5:17
  Tracy Liberatore: So if you're sitting across from somebody and they're very distraught and they're telling you this story of how, you know, wrong they were and whatnot.
• 5:23
  Tracy Liberatore: And I'm sure you have clients that, as you said, may not have a case.
• 5:26
  Tracy Liberatore: How do you tell them or go about explaining to them, you know, I'm sorry, but you just, you know, there's not something for us to we can't help you or whatever.
• 5:35
  Alana Anzalone: I mean, for the most part, it's because the legal system doesn't support it, right?
• 5:39
  Alana Anzalone: Like it doesn't invalidate the experience they have or the injury they have or the grief they're suffering because they lost somebody.
• 5:47
  Alana Anzalone: That exists, right?
• 5:49
  Alana Anzalone: You can't take that away from them.
• 5:51
  Alana Anzalone: Unfortunately, if we can't prove a case, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna drag someone through the mud and put this litigation is stressful on clients.
• 6:00
  Alana Anzalone: Um, it just opens doors to grief continuously and to trauma.
• 6:05
  Alana Anzalone: I mean, they've all experienced trauma.
• 6:07
  Alana Anzalone: And and so I'm very transparent in the first phone call.
• 6:12
  Alana Anzalone: And, you know, I I basically say to them, like, this isn't me telling you I don't I don't think what you've been through is significant.
• 6:19
  Alana Anzalone: Like it's just unfortunately the law doesn't support you know a successful outcome on this.
• 6:26
  Tracy Liberatore: And what's your favorite case type to take?
• 6:29
  Alana Anzalone: Um I I medical malpractice um and and women's health issues, um, I feel very connected with, but mostly medical malpractice.
• 6:39
  Alana Anzalone: I just feel that, you know, those clients have been through so much and um also wrongful death.
• 6:45
  Alana Anzalone: Okay.
• 6:46
  Tracy Liberatore: Is there a specific type of case within the men mal?
• 6:48
  Alana Anzalone: I know you said women, so like birth injuries or yeah, so birth injuries, but also um maternal injuries, which are often overlooked because for the most part, fortunately, they do move on to to heal and and you know, in our world, their damages aren't that great.
• 7:06
  Alana Anzalone: However, their damages are significant to them.
• 7:09
  Alana Anzalone: As a mom um who actually had two complicated pregnancies, I understand how traumatizing pregnancy and and birth and when it doesn't go right, it's it's awful.
• 7:22
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and it's we black it out.
• 7:24
  Alana Anzalone: I mean, it's it's traumatic.
• 7:25
  Alana Anzalone: Nobody understands that really unless you go through it.
• 7:28
  Alana Anzalone: And so when I have the opportunity to try to relay that to people who don't know what that truly is, um, you know, that that's what I want to do.
• 7:40
  Alana Anzalone: I want to help those people.
• 7:42
  Tracy Liberatore: Is there a particular case that you might have that really stands out in your career?
• 7:47
  Tracy Liberatore: Um, either as something that you particularly liked doing or or got a great result, or maybe that really taught you something that you've held on to over time?
• 7:57
  Alana Anzalone: Well, my most recent in November, uh, I felt so strongly for my client.
• 8:04
  Alana Anzalone: And talk about connection.
• 8:06
  Alana Anzalone: I mean, at the end of our trial, you know, it's like saying I love you to each other, right?
• 8:10
  Alana Anzalone: But I've really connected with her.
• 8:12
  Alana Anzalone: Sadly, we lost.
• 8:14
  Alana Anzalone: And the hardest part about that is that when you when a client loses a trial, it's a a jury kind of telling them that what they went through doesn't matter.
• 8:26
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah.
• 8:26
  Alana Anzalone: And so, how do I clean up the pieces on that?
• 8:28
  Alana Anzalone: How do I provide the support on that outside of like, okay, sorry we lost, you know, have a good life, right?
• 8:37
  Alana Anzalone: Like that closure is is kind of something that always hung on to me.
• 8:40
  Alana Anzalone: So, you know, my most recent, this is in November, was the first maternal injury case that went all the way to a trial and losing is obviously bittersweet, but it 100% does not deter me from taking those cases again because I it matters.
• 8:56
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah, no, for sure.
• 8:58
  Tracy Liberatore: So, how do you balance the compassion with being the fierce and relentless fight for justice that your firm is known for?
• 9:05
  Alana Anzalone: So I kind of look at that one, you know, so much of what we talked about as client focused.
• 9:10
  Alana Anzalone: I try to approach, and this is this is an overtime progression of how I've gotten here, but I've really tried to be compassionate to everybody in the case.
• 9:20
  Alana Anzalone: So, defense counsel, we got to take what they what they have with grains of salt, but also they're human.
• 9:27
  Alana Anzalone: And it, you know, I'm gonna try to be respectful and compassionate and kind in the way that I speak home with insurance companies.
• 9:36
  Alana Anzalone: And then also, you know, to jurors.
• 9:38
  Alana Anzalone: There's a juror in that room who may have trauma similar to what we're talking about, right?
• 9:42
  Alana Anzalone: Compassion is is a tough word, but I try to keep my my kindness and respectfulness and compassion for the entire process in check, but also know that I'm serious and I'm good and I will fight the the fight that necess needs to be.
• 9:59
  Alana Anzalone: You know, I I was told once, I think it was by a defense attorney, I think somebody was asking about me on the other side.
• 10:08
  Alana Anzalone: And the response was, oh, she drinks the Kool-Aid, she is a plaintiff's attorney, but it's because she truly cares about what she's doing.
• 10:19
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and and that's where, you know, I I am extremely compassionate for the whole process and for the clients.
• 10:25
  Alana Anzalone: I'm not gonna roll over because of that, but I am going to fight for you know what I truly believe in.
• 10:31
  Alana Anzalone: But on the same, you know, on the same breath, if I if I think that something's difficult, or you know, I've come across doctors before.
• 10:38
  Alana Anzalone: We have a process here called candor where the clients get to communicate with the doctors in this candid uh procedure.
• 10:45
  Alana Anzalone: And it's actually really wonderful to see because there's it's confidential and doctor and patient or family members of patient get to have a real conversation and and you see doctors crying, you see them so apologetic for the losses that they don't they may not have necessarily created, or they don't believe they're negligent, but they understand that who I represent has experienced a loss in some way.
• 11:16
  Alana Anzalone: And so the more and more I see these, these um procedures and processes and see doctors being humans, which they're not allowed to be in a deposition or at trial, has even opened my eyes to be compassionate to them.
• 11:29
  Alana Anzalone: You know, if they did, you know, commit malpractice or if they were negligent and they know that, what we often forget is they have to put their head on the pillow as well.
• 11:38
  Alana Anzalone: And they have to deal with that.
• 11:39
  Alana Anzalone: And and to not have compassion for for that is inhuman, but and you also have to be relentless and fight for the justice that your clients deserve.
• 12:43
  Tracy Liberatore: No, absolutely.
• 12:44
  Tracy Liberatore: So it's kind of like almost balancing.
• 12:46
  Tracy Liberatore: We all have a job to do, we all have our perspective that we need to kind of come from, be a defense plaintiff.
• 12:51
  Tracy Liberatore: Um, but at the end of the day, we're all human.
• 12:54
  Tracy Liberatore: Okay.
• 12:55
  Tracy Liberatore: Um, I had a doctor I worked with once that told me that, you know, if he did something wrong in surgery or whatever, sometimes the apology to the patient would be the thing, and really just owning it would be the thing to help avoid a malpractice.
• 13:07
  Tracy Liberatore: So it's really interesting.
• 13:09
  Tracy Liberatore: So candid, is that something your firm does?
• 13:11
  Tracy Liberatore: Is that something your state has, or what is that?
• 13:14
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah.
• 13:14
  Alana Anzalone: So it's it's called candor.
• 13:16
  Alana Anzalone: It was a legislative bill that was passed by both insurance, defense, and doctors and plaintiffs bar here.
• 13:23
  Alana Anzalone: We we both advocated for it.
• 13:25
  Alana Anzalone: And it's it's a process that sometimes will lead to some sort of compensation.
• 13:30
  Alana Anzalone: Um, sometimes it's really just a meeting of closure.
• 13:35
  Alana Anzalone: And other times it's not even accepted.
• 13:38
  Alana Anzalone: People don't do it.
• 13:39
  Alana Anzalone: It can get political, obviously.
• 13:41
  Alana Anzalone: Like if the insurance companies are like, we're not paying this, I don't want to do it.
• 13:45
  Alana Anzalone: And the doctors don't care and they're just marching to the orders, it doesn't happen.
• 13:49
  Alana Anzalone: But when you see it happen, it's a really cathartic process.
• 13:53
  Alana Anzalone: You know, I've had clients, um, one in particular, her husband died for the doctor failing to diagnose a pulmonary embolism.
• 14:02
  Alana Anzalone: In the meeting, you know, we had a doctor and we had a uh medical assistant there, and they were just talking about how much they loved her husband and how good of a person he was.
• 14:12
  Alana Anzalone: And the whole room was crying.
• 14:14
  Alana Anzalone: I mean, doctors were crying, the defense attorney was crying, I was crying, our client was crying, and it's just it is, it's really nice.
• 14:22
  Alana Anzalone: And and so getting back to the the legislative bill, why they did it is I think it truly was to facilitate resolutions without having to file lawsuits.
• 14:33
  Alana Anzalone: Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but um it it's definitely eye-opening to both sides.
• 14:39
  Tracy Liberatore: It's certainly a nice thing to have as an option.
• 14:41
  Tracy Liberatore: So for our listeners who are, you know, trial lawyers and medical professionals, um, and because juries don't just respond to evidence, they respond to the authentic human narrative.
• 14:51
  Tracy Liberatore: Um, how do you build that partnership with your client so the story is real and not just rehearsed?
• 14:56
  Alana Anzalone: When it comes time to have like real, okay, I really need to present them, right?
• 15:03
  Alana Anzalone: Like, you know, I do it in multiple phases, but when it's time for trial, I'm or even mediation or their deposition, um, I am meeting them outside of the office.
• 15:12
  Alana Anzalone: So we have coffee or go for a walk or at their house.
• 15:16
  Alana Anzalone: Um, I try to remove the big ego, powerful barrier of a law firm.
• 15:23
  Alana Anzalone: I mean, I work out of my off my home actually, um, because I don't feel comfortable in that environment.
• 15:30
  Alana Anzalone: That's not that's not who I am.
• 15:32
  Alana Anzalone: Don't get me wrong, I love to have this powerful presentation.
• 15:36
  Alana Anzalone: Um, but I don't need to have that powerful presentation to my client.
• 15:41
  Alana Anzalone: I like I want them to open up to me.
• 15:43
  Alana Anzalone: I want them to tell me.
• 15:44
  Alana Anzalone: And it's not even necessarily my client.
• 15:46
  Alana Anzalone: It's their family, it's their friend, it's their their, you know, pastor, it's whoever it is that can share stories about these people to just jurors don't want to hear the medical advocate.
• 16:00
  Alana Anzalone: It's it's boring, right?
• 16:01
  Alana Anzalone: Let's be, let's be honest.
• 16:02
  Alana Anzalone: But that's when we know they phase out.
• 16:04
  Alana Anzalone: What they want to hear is who are we giving money to?
• 16:07
  Alana Anzalone: Why do we need to give them money?
• 16:09
  Alana Anzalone: What's their family like?
• 16:10
  Alana Anzalone: What's their, what's their interest?
• 16:12
  Alana Anzalone: What do they do for the community?
• 16:13
  Alana Anzalone: You don't learn that in an hour conversation with a client.
• 16:16
  Alana Anzalone: You just don't.
• 16:17
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and I have to give a lot of credit to kind of that eye open, that that uh philosophy to trial by human.
• 16:25
  Alana Anzalone: Um, you know, I've read their books.
• 16:27
  Alana Anzalone: I, you know, I know Nick and Courtney Raleigh and I've been to their their events and and it it truly is the find the human being that you're representing because that's what yours know.
• 16:38
  Alana Anzalone: They know what humanity is.
• 16:40
  Alana Anzalone: What what's reality?
• 16:41
  Alana Anzalone: What's their what's their real life?
• 16:42
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah.
• 16:43
  Tracy Liberatore: Absolutely.
• 16:44
  Tracy Liberatore: And I know we'll talk about experts a little bit later, but just on the heels of that, uh, because you did mention so the experts are boring or can be boring.
• 16:51
  Tracy Liberatore: Is there anything that you do specifically or something to try and help them to be more, you know, maybe tell a better story?
• 17:02
  Tracy Liberatore: Or I mean, is there anything that you do with your experts specifically to try to help with that?
• 17:05
  Alana Anzalone: Let me throw in an asterisk there.
• 17:07
  Alana Anzalone: I think when I say boring, it's kind of like the client part of it.
• 17:13
  Alana Anzalone: It's like, okay, take me through.
• 17:14
  Alana Anzalone: When did you start going?
• 17:16
  Alana Anzalone: Blah, blah, blah.
• 17:17
  Alana Anzalone: Medicine, I find to this is why I love Meg Mal too, is that I just love medicine.
• 17:21
  Alana Anzalone: And when I am talking to experts, I I I love being educated about it.
• 17:28
  Alana Anzalone: So when I talk to experts from the first, and we might be jumping ahead, but when I'm when I'm talking to them from the get-go, number one, I am preparing myself for that phone call.
• 17:38
  Alana Anzalone: Um, so I'm making sure I know the records because otherwise it's a waste of my time and their time.
• 17:44
  Alana Anzalone: You're paying for their time.
• 17:45
  Alana Anzalone: You better get use out of it.
• 17:48
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and again, I check my ego at the door.
• 17:52
  Alana Anzalone: I don't, I don't know the medicine that they know.
• 17:54
  Alana Anzalone: Chat GPT isn't telling me what they know.
• 17:57
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and as much as I can really try, I will, you know, educate myself before the phone call to have some information.
• 18:03
  Alana Anzalone: I want them to explain it to me.
• 18:05
  Alana Anzalone: I want them to shine and I want them to feel empowered that like I don't know what you're talking about.
• 18:11
  Alana Anzalone: So 101 teach me.
• 18:14
  Alana Anzalone: Um and again, like, how do I hire experts?
• 18:19
  Alana Anzalone: That's a really important piece.
• 18:21
  Alana Anzalone: Like if they can engage me, if I can understand what they're talking about, they get the job.
• 18:27
  Alana Anzalone: If I am lost, I have like I've talked to like anesthesia is one at one area for some reason.
• 18:33
  Alana Anzalone: I just like somebody can tell me it over and over and over and I don't get it until finally I spoke with a um an anesthesia expert that finally I was like, oh wow, you know what, explain this.
• 18:45
  Alana Anzalone: Um and that expert I will use, whether it's for consulting or you know, to to be on the stand or whatever, um, because they know how to explain it.
• 18:56
  Alana Anzalone: Teach it to me.
• 18:58
  Alana Anzalone: You know, and they're so smart and this is what they do.
• 19:01
  Alana Anzalone: And so it's hard to to break that down.
• 19:04
  Alana Anzalone: And I'm such a even the way I operate, like I'm not I'm a very common sense big picture.
• 19:10
  Alana Anzalone: The way I present a case is is big picture.
• 19:13
  Alana Anzalone: Um, I don't get in the weeds.
• 19:15
  Alana Anzalone: And so, you know, when I'm having a medical expert or even, you know, an engineer or or economist again, economists, they can it's like, go do your thing.
• 19:24
  Alana Anzalone: I don't even know what you're talking about.
• 19:26
  Alana Anzalone: But yeah, if they can explain it to me, they can explain it to a jury and and that's that's what I'm looking for.
• 19:35
  Alana Anzalone: And it has to be personable.
• 19:36
  Alana Anzalone: Like I wanna, my dad always calls it a you wanna be dancing with the stars with the expert.
• 19:41
  Alana Anzalone: Like they wanna they need to lead, but you also need to, it's a dance, you know.
• 19:46
  Alana Anzalone: They are the they are the star, but they can't they can't outdance you, right?
• 19:51
  Alana Anzalone: Um, so it has to be a a nice uh connection, right?
• 19:55
  Alana Anzalone: You have to connect with your experts too.
• 19:57
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah, right, right.
• 19:58
  Tracy Liberatore: Oh, I love that analogy.
• 19:59
  Tracy Liberatore: Don't outdance your partner.
• 20:01
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah.
• 20:01
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah.
• 20:02
  Tracy Liberatore: So let's talk about the hard part.
• 20:04
  Tracy Liberatore: I think we did touch on this a little bit.
• 20:06
  Tracy Liberatore: Um, but what struggles have you faced in your career, especially, you know, even in balancing motherhood and high-stakes litigation?
• 20:13
  Alana Anzalone: Before I even get into motherhood, I would say that I struggled with this uh profession before it even started.
• 20:20
  Alana Anzalone: When I was in college, I wasn't really sure that I wanted to go to law school.
• 20:24
  Alana Anzalone: Um, I think it was 2002, which was my junior year, when I had to decide what I wanted to be when I grew up.
• 20:31
  Alana Anzalone: And uh I hadn't declared a major.
• 20:33
  Alana Anzalone: I wasn't sure.
• 20:34
  Alana Anzalone: My dad is uh a lawyer in Pennsylvania.
• 20:37
  Alana Anzalone: He started a firm in northeastern Pennsylvania.
• 20:39
  Alana Anzalone: Um he said, you know, Alana, you go to law school and you have a job and you have stability.
• 20:45
  Alana Anzalone: And at that time, jobs were tough to get, actually.
• 20:49
  Alana Anzalone: Um I was like, that sounds good.
• 20:51
  Alana Anzalone: I'll just go to law school.
• 20:52
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and my brother, who's 13 months older than me, he was we both were at Lafayette college at the same time.
• 20:57
  Alana Anzalone: He knew he wanted to be a lawyer since he was like a child.
• 21:01
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and so it was kind of the path that I chose.
• 21:05
  Alana Anzalone: It was a struggle.
• 21:07
  Alana Anzalone: So even throughout law school, I questioned, you know, is this what I want to do?
• 21:10
  Alana Anzalone: And then I struggled again.
• 21:12
  Alana Anzalone: Once I started being a lawyer, um, I got right out of law school and I bought a house and I started working immediately and in in Wilkes Bear.
• 21:23
  Alana Anzalone: And uh I just didn't know that that was for me.
• 21:29
  Alana Anzalone: Um, I love and I loved the medmount.
• 21:32
  Alana Anzalone: You know, I was working with my my dad had all the bang cases, the unique cases, the challenging, complicated cases.
• 21:37
  Alana Anzalone: And as any, you know, brand new associate, I was handling low-level auto.
• 21:42
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and that was fine, but it just didn't feel very um fulfilling.
• 21:46
  Alana Anzalone: And my dad uh explained me during his speech at my wedding as a um salmon who goes in the opposite direction upstream.
• 21:57
  Alana Anzalone: Um I've always kind of been a grass is always greener person, which can be good and bad.
• 22:04
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and so, you know, I just was constantly like, oh, is there something different for me?
• 22:09
  Alana Anzalone: Is this not, you know, is there a different area of law?
• 22:11
  Alana Anzalone: Should I be focusing on certain things that I'm not currently?
• 22:15
  Alana Anzalone: And that's when the idea of moving to Colorado came up, um, which was about two and a half years after I graduated from law school.
• 22:23
  Alana Anzalone: And that was a really, really difficult decision because my goal was to move here and actually find a different career.
• 22:29
  Alana Anzalone: Um, very difficult to leave my career, but also more so than anything to leave my, you know, big Italian family.
• 22:38
  Alana Anzalone: Um I saw each we saw each other every every Sunday at least, and if not more during the week.
• 22:45
  Alana Anzalone: Um, so that was really challenging.
• 22:47
  Alana Anzalone: But I came to Colorado, I tried to.
• 22:50
  Alana Anzalone: Do different things and the law just kept pulling me back.
• 22:52
  Alana Anzalone: And then, you know, I tried to work in a firm that was not a personal injury firm, and that just didn't work out.
• 22:59
  Alana Anzalone: That was not for me.
• 23:01
  Alana Anzalone: And then that was the time where I was like, oh, you know what?
• 23:04
  Alana Anzalone: I actually am good at personal injury.
• 23:06
  Alana Anzalone: I think I like it.
• 23:07
  Alana Anzalone: You know, and I and I pitched the idea to my dad and Jamie and said, you know, let me let me open up a satellite out here and see how it goes.
• 23:13
  Alana Anzalone: So I opened my own firm and basically was like, give me crumbs.
• 23:17
  Alana Anzalone: I joined Colorado Trial Ours Association, met some people and and built up a typical blueprint personal injury practice, which was auto and slip and fall in some med now.
• 23:28
  Alana Anzalone: And it was enjoyable in the beginning because it was really fun to see, you know, my success grow and like build it from scratch where nobody knew me.
• 23:37
  Alana Anzalone: You know, growing up in Wilkes Fair and in northeastern Pennsylvania, it's small and and people knew who I was, you know.
• 23:43
  Alana Anzalone: So to come to a state where I didn't know a single person, be able to grow a business was really rewarding until I started to feel that lack of fulfillment again.
• 23:55
  Alana Anzalone: Um, so at that point, I started struggling saying, is this really what I want to do?
• 24:00
  Alana Anzalone: I'm not fulfilled.
• 24:01
  Alana Anzalone: And that's when I kind of two or three years ago made this shift to saying, I'm gonna do medal.
• 24:06
  Alana Anzalone: Um, I love it.
• 24:07
  Alana Anzalone: I love the medicine.
• 24:09
  Alana Anzalone: Not a lot of people do it out here.
• 24:10
  Alana Anzalone: The climate for medal and the politics is not good, but I enjoy it.
• 24:14
  Alana Anzalone: And so let's just take that risk.
• 24:16
  Alana Anzalone: And so I would say, you know, taking being motherhood out of it, you know, those were just like the natural struggles of being a lawyer, uh trial lawyer.
• 24:25
  Alana Anzalone: I didn't find being a mom too challenging with this profession until this year.
• 24:33
  Alana Anzalone: Um, you know, when I had my babies, I didn't, I didn't have the guilt that a lot of women did.
• 24:40
  Alana Anzalone: I have a really wonderful support system out here, and my husband is a wonderful co-parent.
• 24:45
  Alana Anzalone: So I didn't feel that guilt of having to choose work uh when they were younger.
• 24:50
  Alana Anzalone: And now they're seven and five.
• 24:52
  Alana Anzalone: And that trial that I talked about um in November, it was down in Colorado Springs, which is an hour and a half from where I live.
• 24:57
  Alana Anzalone: So I had to be down there.
• 24:58
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and it was it spanned three weeks.
• 25:01
  Alana Anzalone: So every Sunday I had to say goodbye to my kids, and they were, you know, my daughter was like, Can't you just be sick?
• 25:08
  Alana Anzalone: Can't you pretend you're sick?
• 25:10
  Alana Anzalone: Like really challenging to yes, you know.
• 25:15
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and I and the courtroom had no windows, and I knew it was a challenging case.
• 25:21
  Alana Anzalone: Jury selection was, you know, you know, you win or lose a case at jury selection.
• 25:25
  Alana Anzalone: I knew it was a challenge.
• 25:27
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and and there were many times during that trial that I was like, what am I doing?
• 25:32
  Alana Anzalone: I'm away from my family.
• 25:34
  Alana Anzalone: My husband's taking care of the kids.
• 25:36
  Alana Anzalone: I miss them.
• 25:38
  Alana Anzalone: Like, is this am I in alignment with my values?
• 25:42
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and that was the first time that I really struggled with choosing work over family.
• 25:50
  Alana Anzalone: And actually, that was the uh catalyst to trial lawyer mama.
• 25:54
  Alana Anzalone: That's where I was gonna go next.
• 25:58
  Tracy Liberatore: So that's kind of the birth of this whole trial trial lawyer mama venture and idea.
• 26:05
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah.
• 26:06
  Tracy Liberatore: So you want to tell us a little bit about that?
• 26:08
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah, sure.
• 26:09
  Alana Anzalone: So trial lawyer mama actually was my Instagram handle as soon as I had a child.
• 26:13
  Alana Anzalone: So it wasn't related to this side project at all.
• 26:17
  Alana Anzalone: So let's back up.
• 26:18
  Alana Anzalone: I've I spent a lot of work with women in Colorado.
• 26:21
  Alana Anzalone: I ran our Women Trial Lawyer Network, which is a committee of the Colorado Trial Lawyers Association for eight years.
• 26:28
  Alana Anzalone: And before I started it, it really there wasn't a lot of involvement.
• 26:32
  Alana Anzalone: And I did a lot of work on it with many other co-chairs, but cared a lot about women in our profession.
• 26:40
  Alana Anzalone: And it wasn't a pow-wow about hating men.
• 26:45
  Alana Anzalone: That's not our objective.
• 26:46
  Alana Anzalone: The objective is how do we prove ourselves?
• 26:50
  Alana Anzalone: How do we use each other to be better lawyers to stand out in this community and get respect?
• 26:57
  Alana Anzalone: Right.
• 26:57
  Alana Anzalone: How do how do we present in a room where the room knows we aren't the paralegal or we aren't the court reporter or we we are the lawyer and we are the lead lawyer?
• 27:08
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and so my goal, what I've worked on with women, and that is really like building our confidence through knowledge and education and support to prove ourselves.
• 27:19
  Alana Anzalone: So now that I have children, I just started noticing that, you know, women trial lawyers who are moms have a unique set of challenges that nobody else has.
• 27:32
  Alana Anzalone: Um that's not to say that other professionals who are moms don't like so we're higher, we're high achieving individuals, right?
• 27:39
  Alana Anzalone: And we have a lot on our plate.
• 27:40
  Alana Anzalone: We carry the weight of everybody else.
• 27:42
  Alana Anzalone: Um, getting back to the compassion and the empathy of our clients, right?
• 27:46
  Alana Anzalone: We take on, we I don't know if everybody does, I certainly take on so much weight of other people's trauma.
• 27:54
  Alana Anzalone: I live it, I want to connect with them.
• 27:56
  Alana Anzalone: So to have, you know, that.
• 28:00
  Alana Anzalone: So you're carrying the weight of your client's trauma.
• 28:02
  Alana Anzalone: You're then carrying the weight of being a mom, right?
• 28:07
  Alana Anzalone: And your kids need you, especially, you know, minor seven and five.
• 28:11
  Alana Anzalone: They they need me.
• 28:12
  Alana Anzalone: Um, also, you know, my my husband doesn't need me, but I want to be there and I want to be present and I want to be available.
• 28:22
  Alana Anzalone: And then I need me.
• 28:23
  Alana Anzalone: Here it's off screen, needs me, right?
• 28:28
  Alana Anzalone: So, you know, I've I've done a lot of personal work on am I alone in this?
• 28:33
  Alana Anzalone: Are there other women who feel this way?
• 28:35
  Alana Anzalone: And the more and more I talk to people, um, and I've gone to, you know, a separate retreat that wasn't trial lawyer related, but I noticed the moms in that group had unique challenges that the other women didn't.
• 28:46
  Alana Anzalone: And so this kind of evolved over time that, you know, I feel I'm very drawn to helping other women get to a place of confidence.
• 28:56
  Alana Anzalone: And so my goal with trial lawyer mama is to enable women and provide this platform through accountability and coaching of like, how do we not just march through this?
• 29:09
  Alana Anzalone: How do we not set autopilot and auto-drive where we can build the life we want in intentional ways in all four of those jobs, right?
• 29:18
  Alana Anzalone: And I say four jobs is our real job, our parenting job, our spouse or partner job, and then taking care of ourselves.
• 29:26
  Alana Anzalone: Absolutely.
• 29:27
  Alana Anzalone: And I don't think I think a lot of women just don't, especially in our career, we are high achieving and we do have egos and we don't ask for help.
• 29:37
  Alana Anzalone: And and that lends itself to burnout, it lends itself to comparison, unhealthy, you know, just kind of unhealthy mindsets where we just don't allow ourselves to stop.
• 29:51
  Alana Anzalone: Like, what are we doing?
• 29:53
  Alana Anzalone: Is this how you want to live your life?
• 29:55
  Alana Anzalone: Because we only have one and tomorrow is not guaranteed.
• 29:58
  Tracy Liberatore: Oh, absolutely.
• 29:59
  Tracy Liberatore: Absolutely.
• 30:00
  Tracy Liberatore: And we see a lot of that with the work that you do, I'm sure, with the clients when a medical thing can happen on a dime and it's just, you know, changes everything.
• 30:08
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah, in a heartbeat.
• 30:10
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah.
• 30:11
  Tracy Liberatore: Um, so and so you had mentioned, you know, kind of carrying a lot of this stuff from your clients.
• 30:17
  Tracy Liberatore: So for our audience, many of whom maybe in the thick of trial prep and, you know, also trying to manage a real life, what systems or mindset shifts or, you know, um, like how do you protect your energy from, you know, the long-term carrying of a lot of this stuff, you know, and and keeping your space clear so that you can continue to manage life and manage your clients and not, you know, kind of carry all this heavy weight with you forever.
• 30:41
  Alana Anzalone: It's a learned experience, right?
• 30:42
  Alana Anzalone: Like the system is what I've learned.
• 30:44
  Alana Anzalone: Um, what systems do I use?
• 30:47
  Alana Anzalone: I meditate, I wake up before my kids do, uh, I work out, I try to eat healthy.
• 30:54
  Alana Anzalone: Um, time management.
• 30:56
  Alana Anzalone: I mean, these are all like buzzwords, but it's like, how do you apply them?
• 31:00
  Alana Anzalone: Right.
• 31:00
  Alana Anzalone: Um, we all know we need those things.
• 31:03
  Alana Anzalone: Um how do we do it?
• 31:05
  Alana Anzalone: And so also, you know, I get outside, I breathe a lot, I sit at my desk all day.
• 31:12
  Alana Anzalone: And sometimes I'll just be like, I'm looking at a beautiful sunny day out my window.
• 31:16
  Alana Anzalone: Get up, go get some fresh air, reset, come back.
• 31:20
  Alana Anzalone: But the system is truly an intentional, present system.
• 31:25
  Alana Anzalone: And it's not what I'm what I've reshifted in it.
• 31:29
  Alana Anzalone: It's been over, it's been a work in progress.
• 31:31
  Alana Anzalone: I mean, this is has not come naturally to me.
• 31:34
  Alana Anzalone: I I have done a lot of work on myself.
• 31:36
  Alana Anzalone: So when I say it's a lived experience, it is over the past several years.
• 31:39
  Alana Anzalone: What I've learned most and what's most important is that I'm operating in alignment with my own personal values and my standards.
• 31:47
  Alana Anzalone: Our industry forces external factors in our face.
• 31:51
  Alana Anzalone: You know, if you want to learn, you're going to CLEs.
• 31:55
  Alana Anzalone: If you want to be a better lawyer, you're surrounding yourself with good lawyers, right?
• 31:59
  Alana Anzalone: You're learning from people, you're talking on listservs, you're talking to colleagues.
• 32:03
  Alana Anzalone: But with that comes external big verdicts that are bigger than yours, settlements that why didn't you get them?
• 32:11
  Alana Anzalone: But they did.
• 32:11
  Alana Anzalone: Firms that are growing bigger than yours or different than yours.
• 32:16
  Alana Anzalone: So there's all these external, external factors that kind of can fog your real purpose, right?
• 32:24
  Alana Anzalone: And so when you when you get bogged down with those, it leads to resentment, uh, unnatural, I mean, not not intentional resentment, it just does um because you want those things too, because we're all high achievers.
• 32:40
  Alana Anzalone: This is what we're doing.
• 32:41
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and it also lends itself to self-doubt or you know, deprecation um, or not being worthy or valuable.
• 32:53
  Alana Anzalone: And so I got I found myself really wrapped up in that.
• 32:57
  Alana Anzalone: I was I was really into the like going to many CLEs, but again, it was a comparison.
• 33:05
  Alana Anzalone: So like I got a good million dollar verdict, somebody else got an eight million dollar verdict, right?
• 33:09
  Alana Anzalone: Or someone got eight figure verdicts, or now you're hearing massive verdicts, and it's like, I thought I was good.
• 33:16
  Alana Anzalone: So once I started stepping back from that, taking a breath and like looking internally, you know, what what do I how do I wanna, you know, what's my North Star?
• 33:28
  Alana Anzalone: How do I want to operate in my life?
• 33:30
  Alana Anzalone: And it may not look like somebody else that did it a different way.
• 33:33
  Alana Anzalone: Right.
• 33:33
  Alana Anzalone: And so what I impose in my life is a system of intentional, intentional acts, working in the day-to-day system instead of towards the goal.
• 33:43
  Alana Anzalone: Because we all have the goal is there.
• 33:45
  Alana Anzalone: It is a moving target, but it's there.
• 33:48
  Alana Anzalone: So the day-to-day and the present is is what's most important.
• 33:52
  Alana Anzalone: And honestly, it's it's really changed my mindset and like outlook of my job.
• 33:57
  Alana Anzalone: And um, how do I handle all of it?
• 33:59
  Alana Anzalone: Just be kind of more enjoyable, to be honest.
• 34:02
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah.
• 34:03
  Tracy Liberatore: So if somebody were um looking to try to get involved or whatever, what type of a client, I guess, or what type of a person or what type of an issue would somebody have for um to get involved with the trial or a mama side of things?
• 34:16
  Alana Anzalone: And this is not to be like exclusive, but it's because again, it was created on a learned experience.
• 34:23
  Alana Anzalone: So it is a mom who's a traveler.
• 34:26
  Alana Anzalone: Yep.
• 34:27
  Alana Anzalone: That's that's basically it.
• 34:29
  Alana Anzalone: And those who are finding themselves stuck, those who are just on autopilot.
• 34:34
  Alana Anzalone: And when somebody asks someone asks me, like, how do you do it all?
• 34:38
  Alana Anzalone: It's like, well, I just do.
• 34:39
  Alana Anzalone: We just march.
• 34:40
  Alana Anzalone: We just do it.
• 34:41
  Alana Anzalone: We just we get stuff done because we are achievers, but we get lost in the process.
• 34:46
  Alana Anzalone: So anyone who feels that they are missing out or trying to reach these external factors and and losing out on the present or making mistakes or missing something, just so focused on an end result instead of the the present, how do we, how do we act intentionally?
• 35:04
  Alana Anzalone: Um, you know, that's for you.
• 35:06
  Alana Anzalone: Like I think that the the challenge that we all have is acknowledging that something's not working, right?
• 35:15
  Alana Anzalone: There is certainly going to be, if it hasn't already happened to a trial where a mom is, you're gonna have to pick work over a kid at one point.
• 35:26
  Alana Anzalone: And that hurts.
• 35:27
  Alana Anzalone: And so again, like I said, as the as the kids have gotten older, this has resonated with me a little bit more.
• 35:34
  Alana Anzalone: And so it might be more of the the clientele who is starting to feel these things because their kids are asking moms for more.
• 35:43
  Alana Anzalone: But like, for example, um, field trips.
• 35:47
  Alana Anzalone: My son started saying, Mom, why don't you join the field trips?
• 35:51
  Alana Anzalone: And my natural reaction is, well, honey, because I have to work.
• 35:55
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah.
• 35:55
  Alana Anzalone: Right.
• 35:56
  Alana Anzalone: I have a job.
• 35:57
  Alana Anzalone: I have a lot of people demanding things of me.
• 35:59
  Alana Anzalone: I'm really busy and I'm I'm sorry.
• 36:01
  Alana Anzalone: Like, other moms can do it, and and I'll see you when I get home.
• 36:04
  Alana Anzalone: That was the case.
• 36:06
  Alana Anzalone: And then I felt really bad about it.
• 36:07
  Alana Anzalone: And I was like, Well, can I actually do this?
• 36:11
  Alana Anzalone: Like, how do I do this?
• 36:13
  Alana Anzalone: Because I feel bad.
• 36:14
  Alana Anzalone: I he is getting older and older, and and I'm missing out on that.
• 36:18
  Alana Anzalone: And people say that, and you just don't really Yeah, you don't get it until it happens.
• 36:21
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah.
• 36:22
  Alana Anzalone: Can't get your time back.
• 36:24
  Alana Anzalone: Exactly.
• 36:24
  Alana Anzalone: So it's like, all right, well, let me look at his field trips.
• 36:27
  Alana Anzalone: There's there's some that's an hour long, like, and they're in advance.
• 36:32
  Alana Anzalone: So yes, I can block out my calendar and I can go on this field trip and then I will go back to work.
• 36:38
  Alana Anzalone: So I've I've really started to like I keep using the word conventional, but I keep intentionally looking at my calendar and my actual needs.
• 36:46
  Alana Anzalone: Like, do I actually need to be at my desk on that day of that of that field trip?
• 36:52
  Alana Anzalone: And if the answer is no, then that's my guiding light, right?
• 36:55
  Alana Anzalone: Women who feel stuck or or in doubt or guilty or really like, I think I'm doing okay, but I know I can do better because again, we are all high achievers.
• 37:11
  Alana Anzalone: So yeah, so what can we do to be better?
• 37:13
  Alana Anzalone: I mean, that's the whole goal is for us to be better.
• 37:16
  Alana Anzalone: And and I also want to emphasize that just because we have children doesn't mean that we aren't as good or better than anyone else in that courtroom.
• 37:28
  Alana Anzalone: You know, we have a we have a unique set of superpowers that other people in that courtroom don't.
• 37:35
  Alana Anzalone: And and if we can just shift the focus where it's it's not a I'm bogged down, I'm too busy, I'm overwhelmed to I get to do this and I'm really good at it.
• 37:48
  Alana Anzalone: So how do I fix everything else?
• 37:50
  Alana Anzalone: You know, that's what we can work on.
• 37:52
  Alana Anzalone: Um and again, the whole point, like I as I did with women, is to build our credibility, right?
• 37:59
  Alana Anzalone: Build the credibility to show that you can do it all in a way that is not harmful to you because we are the most important.
• 38:08
  Tracy Liberatore: So, what I'm actually hearing you say, I just wanted to reflect back.
• 38:10
  Tracy Liberatore: So, a woman who is trying to find herself and step into her power again through all the chaos that life has brought along.
• 38:18
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah.
• 38:18
  Alana Anzalone: So if you've ever had this thought of, I just don't want to do this anymore.
• 38:24
  Alana Anzalone: I know we've had it.
• 38:26
  Alana Anzalone: Don't say you haven't.
• 38:27
  Alana Anzalone: I want to go and be a yoga teacher.
• 38:31
  Alana Anzalone: I want to open a coffee shop.
• 38:33
  Alana Anzalone: All of those things, all of those things have crossed my mind.
• 38:36
  Alana Anzalone: Um you don't have to leave your career to be good at both.
• 38:40
  Alana Anzalone: You chose both of those things.
• 38:42
  Alana Anzalone: So let's figure out how to be good at both of those things where you're not losing yourself in it.
• 38:48
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah, absolutely.
• 38:49
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah.
• 38:50
  Tracy Liberatore: So now I wanted to just sort of um looking at younger trial lawyers or younger, you know, women, men and and the younger group coming up, um, any advice that you have for for them as they're starting their career, um, you know, what maybe they might underestimate about trial work or habits that you know separate great trial lawyers from good ones.
• 39:11
  Tracy Liberatore: And and again, you know, we talk a lot about credibility.
• 39:14
  Tracy Liberatore: So, you know, how about building some of this stuff early on or any any really um tips or things you've learned along the way that you want to pass on to the next up and coming generation?
• 39:23
  Alana Anzalone: So the number one thing that when I was younger that I learned, uh mostly in Colorado, actually, is because Colorado laws and Pennsylvania laws are completely different.
• 39:33
  Alana Anzalone: Um, I mean, the concepts are the same, but there's a lot of of um different intricacies between the two, is ask questions.
• 39:41
  Alana Anzalone: Do not let your ego get in the way of learning.
• 39:45
  Alana Anzalone: You don't have to do it yourself.
• 39:47
  Alana Anzalone: There is somebody out there who did what you're struggling with and went through it and will take the time to tell you about it.
• 39:55
  Alana Anzalone: And and I tell this, I've I've created this kind of authentic natural mentorship with women.
• 40:00
  Alana Anzalone: Like, call me.
• 40:02
  Alana Anzalone: You're not gonna bother me.
• 40:03
  Alana Anzalone: I'm sure that what I what you're going through or the question that you have or the problem you're dealing with that you're you don't want to go ask your partner or your boss because you're supposed to know it.
• 40:12
  Alana Anzalone: Call me.
• 40:12
  Alana Anzalone: Find that person out there that make friends with them that you don't feel bad bothering them because it's actually not a bother.
• 40:21
  Alana Anzalone: I'm I'm happy to share anything.
• 40:23
  Alana Anzalone: No, there's there's I always make this comparison of when we're in law school, there's people in law school who don't want to share their notes.
• 40:30
  Alana Anzalone: You didn't go to class, I'm not gonna share my notes with you, right?
• 40:33
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah, I'm not that person.
• 40:35
  Alana Anzalone: I share the notes.
• 40:37
  Alana Anzalone: Like you're only doing a you know a disservice to yourself if you need my notes, but why do I need to disad the, you know, do a disservice to you?
• 40:44
  Alana Anzalone: You want my notes, you want my help, I just I give it freely.
• 40:48
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and so my my advice is ask for help.
• 40:52
  Alana Anzalone: There's there's a form out there, there's an answer out there.
• 40:55
  Alana Anzalone: Um, so ask for help.
• 40:57
  Alana Anzalone: And then also it's the other thing I would say is what I've already talked about is the sooner you can identify that you are working towards external factors instead of internal, the sooner you will create a more successful career because the external factors they may be motivating in some way, but they are also very harmful.
• 41:21
  Tracy Liberatore: Yeah, and I think what you you said too, it goes back to that whole competition and comparison piece again.
• 41:26
  Tracy Liberatore: You know, why your analogy was great, the one that won't share their notes.
• 41:30
  Tracy Liberatore: Um, and I can only think that it has to do with, you know, again, that competition on some level, right?
• 41:36
  Tracy Liberatore: Right.
• 41:37
  Tracy Liberatore: So I just wanted to touch again here a little bit.
• 41:40
  Tracy Liberatore: I know we talked about medical experts, um, but really just to kind of give our listeners a little bit of insight into the trialer's brain.
• 41:48
  Tracy Liberatore: Um, because we do get a lot of new people that are not so sure of themselves.
• 41:53
  Tracy Liberatore: Can I do this work as an expert?
• 41:55
  Tracy Liberatore: And so, you know, when you're hiring somebody, what is it specifically that you're looking for?
• 42:00
  Tracy Liberatore: And I know we talked a little bit about the personality, but is there a specific credential?
• 42:03
  Tracy Liberatore: Do they have to have, you know, I guess what's a must have when you're talking to somebody?
• 42:09
  Alana Anzalone: Well, obviously the must is the credential for the area that we're we need.
• 42:13
  Alana Anzalone: That's an obvious, but I always talk about egos.
• 42:15
  Alana Anzalone: I think the ability to drop an ego to let a lawyer help you understand the legal part of what you need to be doing.
• 42:22
  Alana Anzalone: Um, like there's no doubt that practic you can practice, you might know the the um academic part of it.
• 42:31
  Alana Anzalone: But when it comes to the legal part, you you need us to help you and you need to be open to being okay with that.
• 42:38
  Alana Anzalone: So if you don't understand what stand the standard of care testimony, like you know what the standard of care is.
• 42:45
  Alana Anzalone: That's we're not telling you that.
• 42:46
  Alana Anzalone: But when you can't like identify how to say it, right?
• 42:50
  Alana Anzalone: If you in a legal sense, like lit help us help you.
• 42:55
  Alana Anzalone: Um when it comes to like experience testifying, I kind of go both ways on that.
• 43:02
  Alana Anzalone: Obviously, experience is helpful because you don't have to do that piece I just talked about.
• 43:06
  Alana Anzalone: They know what the they know the game, right?
• 43:08
  Alana Anzalone: But also knowing the game is dangerous um because it opens the door to to credibility and bias and and all of that.
• 43:16
  Alana Anzalone: So um I know that well, my understanding is that if you are an expert who tends to be hired by plaintiffs, defense usually isn't going to ask you to to do it and vice versa.
• 43:30
  Alana Anzalone: But I think that to the extent an expert can work for both sides, it builds a lot of credibility.
• 43:36
  Alana Anzalone: Um, and I am okay with that.
• 43:37
  Tracy Liberatore: In working with experts behind the scene, have been training through Bend Legal Crow for 10 years, and it's just, you're exactly right, um, with their reports, like because I every report that comes through, I read it and we go back and forth with them.
• 43:49
  Tracy Liberatore: And and that causation piece is just trying to get that information out of their head and and like onto the paper.
• 43:56
  Tracy Liberatore: Um, I always call it the, I've call it the brain flip just because like I was a PA and and I know going through law school, trying to figure out how to write legally, it was a struggle.
• 44:07
  Tracy Liberatore: Because I had to go from, well, just wanting the answer and how to fix it to everything that happened in my brain to get there, right?
• 44:14
  Tracy Liberatore: Being important.
• 44:15
  Tracy Liberatore: So that absolutely that is um the biggest struggle I see for them as well.
• 44:20
  Tracy Liberatore: Um, so for the physician listening who may want to become an expert, do you have any specific advice that you'd give them how to show up in a way that truly helps a jury?
• 44:30
  Alana Anzalone: I mean, I think just be authentic and engaging.
• 44:32
  Alana Anzalone: You know, educate the jury, because again, they don't know what you're talking about.
• 44:36
  Alana Anzalone: Um, be as common sense as possible.
• 44:39
  Alana Anzalone: Don't sound overly intelligent that nobody understands what you're talking about.
• 44:44
  Alana Anzalone: You really gotta be able to explain it and dumb it down.
• 44:48
  Alana Anzalone: Um, that and that's for me because honestly like if I can't understand what you're talking about jurors can't either so if you have a lawyer saying like I need you to explain this better it's it's true you gotta you gotta do that and I think you know I'm gonna say this and it may not be a well received but for those who want to be experts please don't use it as a way to get rich because we are seeing and also like make it make sense as to as to the time that you actually spent um because you know first of all I hate I hate controversy but when I see an expert's invoice of how long it may have taken to review a record or use some sort of real timer um because if I'm I'm wondering that did that really take that much time to review that somebody else is too and that is an immediate discredit to your to your anything you say.
• 45:52
  Alana Anzalone: You could be the best medical expert ever but if you lose credibility in an area in that way um they won't listen to you.
• 46:02
  Tracy Liberatore: Oh absolutely I I struggle with the same thing when our experts submit their invoices and that's one of the actual things that I manage for a client um I've had experts try to submit like 10 and 15 hours of research on a case and I don't allow more than two or three at the tops without you know approval if there's a certain thing the attorney wants them to research that's different.
• 46:24
  Tracy Liberatore: But um out of the gate I don't allow for a learning curve because it's just such an inflated you're you're a hundred percent right the invoice is just crazy and I just tell them you can't bill for this we're not even submitting these hours it's just crazy um you can't make all of your money on one case and nor should you try it's it's about building a relationship you want repeat work.
• 46:42
  Tracy Liberatore: Right.
• 46:43
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah no absolutely yeah it's a little it can be a barrier for them to be honest.
• 46:47
  Tracy Liberatore: You might as well get the work um get more of the work but at a a reasonable rate you know yeah we um we've been seeing a lot of like eight and nine hundred dollars an hour coming through too which I think is a little crazy um it just won't work with those numbers either but that's just me.
• 47:07
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah well I appreciate that that's well hard to say like you can't charge what you want to charge what you believe you're worth but I think the misconception in the entire medical field and us is that and their perception of personal injury lawyers is like we're just raking in the cash.
• 47:26
  Alana Anzalone: Well I know I know this is coming out of our pocket.
• 47:29
  Alana Anzalone: And oftentimes we're paying for it at the end of the day out of our pocket because you know our clients going to be like that's absolutely an absurd cost.
• 47:39
  Alana Anzalone: And so the lawyers take the hit I mean um and and it just is like a icky place to be.
• 47:47
  Tracy Liberatore: It is and not every case is a million dollar case and that's the other part they don't understand.
• 47:51
  Tracy Liberatore: Like you have to look at the case value you have to look at a lot of different factors and then you know that's absolutely um that that is an issue that we try to help manage as well.
• 48:01
  Alana Anzalone: Yeah.
• 48:01
  Alana Anzalone: So I love talking to medical doctors.
• 48:04
  Alana Anzalone: I love learning about it um even if I don't even take a case like I want them to tell me they I don't have a case if it's the truth and and I love learning why um so I very much value those conversations.
• 48:17
  Tracy Liberatore: So that's actually a really another good point um that especially early on they they they're always trying to figure out if they can find something for the case that's not always what the attorney's after they're they want to know if there's a case or not and and like you said why.
• 48:30
  Tracy Liberatore: So that's a good great point too.
• 48:32
  Alana Anzalone: The other thing I'll say about doctors getting back to the trial or mama I've thought about this um a lot and when I think of like you know people are like would you open this to other professions?
• 48:44
  Alana Anzalone: And to be honest the only other profession that comes to mind is either a a physician or a therapist because I know that they also carry the weight of heavy burden right it's it's a heavy emotional burden um as opposed to just like billing hours, right?
• 49:04
  Alana Anzalone: Like there's a difference between the who we're servicing.
• 49:07
  Alana Anzalone: So doctors, there's and I talk a lot about this is the secondary trauma, you know, we have so much secondary trauma um we see horrible things that can happen and then we're expected to think that we can just play with our kids and and not have any of that over you know unreasonable uh fears take over in our parenting.
• 49:31
  Alana Anzalone: So um you know I I know that doctors have that kind of same complexity of how their lives have to shift, you know, between carrying the burden of a patient and what happens to them during their treatment, um, good or bad and then shifting gears being able to just switch it um at five o'clock or whatever that time is to then be a mom.
• 49:53
  Tracy Liberatore: Try to just turn it off and go home, right?
• 49:55
  Tracy Liberatore: Right yeah.
• 49:56
  Tracy Liberatore: Well Ilana this has been an outstanding uh session I I really appreciate everything that you've shared with us here today.
• 50:04
  Tracy Liberatore: Any last bits of information anything that you feel like is not been said that you want to share before we get your contact information?
• 50:11
  Alana Anzalone: Two things for the the lawyers out there just you know male female you know whoever with kids no kids in the world of so much information don't get lost in being somebody else don't get lost in the um teachings or you have to follow this path to be a phenomenal lawyer you're in this field because you were drawn to it and use your own authenticity to represent your clients in whatever way works for you.
• 50:46
  Alana Anzalone: So I've learned that be authentic don't try to don't try to be somebody else that wrote a book.
• 50:53
  Alana Anzalone: You can use their information and you can adapt it but don't try to be them so I would say that to everybody.
• 51:00
  Alana Anzalone: And then for the parents out there somebody said this to me and I want to pass this on is that when that time has come in your life that you're you're like laying on your desk bed or whatever, there's never going to be the thought that I regret spending time with my kids instead of working you will absolutely regret choosing work over an important part with your kids, an important event with your kids.
• 51:27
  Alana Anzalone: It's easy to be blurred in that decision making at the time but if you make the decision based on what do you think you'd look at and how do you feel about it in the future you know that every every day if you chose these children to did be, you know, if you if you brought this child into this world, you know that you would choose your child over work any day.
• 51:50
  Alana Anzalone: And so just remember that when tough tough choices are in front of you.
• 51:54
  Tracy Liberatore: Oh absolutely that's great great advice yeah so on the heels of that tell people how we can get in touch with you.
• 52:03
  Alana Anzalone: So um even though I'm in Colorado I still my main office is in Pennsylvania so you can contact um what was originally Ansolone offices we just changed a couple years ago to Anzalone and Doyle.
• 52:17
  Alana Anzalone: So our phone number there is 877-256-6933.
• 52:23
  Tracy Liberatore: But if you want to get in touch with me directly um I'm really good with email sadly not a boundary that I've stuck with um you can email me at Alana um so it's alana at al o hyphenco.com thank you again alana I am sure our listeners will find this conversation enthralling and you know thank you for being on the show.
• 52:48
  Tracy Liberatore: Well I hope so yep it was nice to nice to talk with you.
• 52:51
  Tracy Liberatore: All right so this brings us to an end of another episode and we will see you on the next one.
• 52:57
  Tracy Liberatore: If today's episode changed how you'll read your next medical record consider sharing it with a colleague and follow the show so you don't miss future conversations with trial attorneys shaping the space.
• 53:08
  Tracy Liberatore: Statutes and stethoscopes is brought to you by MedLegal Pro, where I match attorneys with rigorously vetted medical experts and turn complex records into court ready work product.
• 53:20
  Tracy Liberatore: If you're sitting on a case where the medical evidence isn't adding up consider submitting it for a review.
• 53:25
  Tracy Liberatore: I'm Tracy Libertori and I'll see you in the next episode