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The Future of Financial Planning - Anthony Villis · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: They have a niche specialism, recruiting, within the financial planning industry, so check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: And today's guest is Anthony Vilas.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Anthony is the managing director of a company called First Wealth.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: That company is actually a chartered financial planning firm of the year for 2021-22.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was voted for through the Personal Finance Society.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: They're also a top 100 financial planning firm, as outlined in the new model advisor.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: And today we talk a lot about well-being.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about the career structure within financial planning and what First Wealth are doing.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why Anthony invests so heavily in the well-being of his staff, and why he chose to make uh First Wealth a B Corp business.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we have the B Corporation certification and how that filters down to clients, the staff, and the communities around FirstWealth and what really they're doing from a positive impact perspective, which is really, really cool.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Big into tech, Anthony is he's also the um co-founder of Digital Device Technologies, and we talk a little bit about what he's doing there, and we move into the world of AI as well, and even have a discussion about the future of financial planning.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I found that really, really interesting.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Anthony is an absolutely lovely bloke.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: He's doing great things there in his business.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you'll enjoy the podcast.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: So much to talk about.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can't put it all into one introduction, but enjoy.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: Anthony, thanks so much for joining me today on the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Very well, Sam.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much for having me.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: No problem at all.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, really, really pleased for you to come onto the podcast.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've been seeing you pop up a lot on social media, um, especially since I've been doing the Financial Planner Life podcast.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think you may have been starting to kind of get out there and be a bit more active on social media over the last few years.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I see you pop up.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: I've always seen and I've always thinking I'm gonna reach out to Anthony and get him on the podcast.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a lot of talk about.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he's engaging, he's interesting.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the one things I always picked up about you as well is you're very honest.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I try to try to say things as they are.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that, honest and authentic.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's something that people definitely relate to on social media.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I can see why you're putting that content out there.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I think perhaps a little bit further down the line, we can talk about your social media journey, how that's impacted you, your career, you know, from a client perspective, but also from um most importantly, growing your business and attracting the right people to your business as well.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure thing.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Happy to discuss that later.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Fabulous.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, Anthony, sort of um, past, present, and future approach here, I think we should go for.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um, what I really love to sort of understand that a lot of my listeners like to understand this because some of them are on the beginnings of their journeys or they're thinking about becoming a uh a financial planner, they don't know what path to go down, or sometimes they are just quite simply thinking about stepping away from being employed and going down the self-employed route and even running their own businesses.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the beginning, I always just like to get an understanding of how you got into the profession, sort of up to where you are now.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give us a brief overview of your journey?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can do that.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so I was at Bath University.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I did an economics degree.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I was coming towards the end of my graduation.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I had a very lovely girlfriend at the time who was in the first year of uh Bath Uni.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought it'd be probably a good idea to hang around and stay in Bath so we could be together.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I just ended up writing, get literally yellow pages type thing to accountancy of practices and financial practices in Bath and Bristol.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um got two responses, I think, one from an accountant based in Bristol, one from Chase DeVere in Bath.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I went for interviews with both of them.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I loved the guys at Chase DeVere.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: There was a real energy about what they were doing, the people I met there.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, listen, you're not, you're probably far too young for the sort of people we would normally take on.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're interested, go away and do some exams.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so they gave me FP1 and two, as it was then.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I said, go and do those over the summer.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: If you pass those, come back and uh talk to us again.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought, okay, I'm gonna do that.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, did the exams, uh, knocked on their door, I think they were surprised to see me again and said, right, here I am and done those.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: When do I start?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sort of thing.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there was an element of right, they just admired the tenacity, gave me a job uh and never looked back really.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I split up with a girlfriend, you know, probably three months after that.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: But um it was the best career choice and chance, and I just was in there straight away and absolutely loved it.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: So did nine years at Chase Devere, um mainly in Bath but two or three years in London.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Then took a career break, had two years off traveling around the world, sort of uh Africa, Asia, Australia, New South America, it's amazing.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then came back, vowed I'd never work in financial services again.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, my mate John Rolfe, who now is uh team run, he was running Epoch at the time was running on a counseling practice, said you want to come and run a counseling practice financial planning firm in London.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Yeah, I'll do that for you.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Did that for two years.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, really disliked the guy who was in charge of that business.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: He and I did not see I to eye, let's put it that way.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh thought there must be a better way of doing it.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, stayed in contact with my mate Rob Kaplan, who was worked with at Chase DeVere.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: He was doing something similar with his brother and dad.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we said, let's let's just go on our own.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: So took a year, talked about it, and we set up first wealth in 2009, which is amazing, like 12 years ago now.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and here we are today, 12 years later.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's very quick history of how I got into it and where I am.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's perfect.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one thing I'll just pick out on that.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: This I always think when people ever sort of give me their career background, it's always something that jumps out to me.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can usually relate it to what's going on today with people with their own job hunting.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: And one of those things you said to me then was that you pulled out the yellow pages, went through the yellow pages and started looking for companies to work for.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know how rare that actually is with people actually searching for jobs these days?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like candidates just don't actually.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I've I've run like a training course through next gen planners and things, just kind of helping people out who have no experience because running a financial planning recruitment firm, financial planners firms tend to want me to find people that have got experience, just bring it to pay a fee for somebody with experience.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I give my sort of free advice to people looking and I say, look, you know, these are the key things that you should be doing.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: You should just be going on, you know, get on Google, where do you want to live?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: What's the radius?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Find this many companies, put it on a spreadsheet, find out who the contacts are, go on LinkedIn, link in with them, send a message, make a phone call, send an email, make sure it's specific to wanting to work within financial planning, the reasons why you want to do it, and just see what happens, see what comes back, market yourself out.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um a lot of people are very fearful of doing that.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're gonna get, you know, there is an element of rejection.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, one of the things I always do with Kerry, and Kerry's brilliant at this, is that everyone applies for a job at First Wealth will receive it in response.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one of the rules.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: So that there's we do not do this thing where people just don't hear from us.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a I just, if it was me, treat people with respect.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So everyone gets that response.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, again, looking back at university, something I was sort of touching on before we started is, you know, the milk grounds are there, all the private banks coming in, and those jobs all go to the people with the right surnames, the right school backgrounds.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, someone like myself who is a you know, a sort of normal kid from Dorset, doesn't get looking, right?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like, right, how am I going to do this myself?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: How am I going to get into this?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And once I'm in it, how am I going to reach the top of this profession?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of it's then, right, that bloody-mindedness, uh, determination and tenacity is probably what part of the drive behind equaling things up, really.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Were you, you know, in your approach to actually finding that work, were you, because you mentioned there about, you know, the milk rounds, you know, some of the big major banks coming to universities and hoover up the right people.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Did you sort of outwardly know that it was financial planning or financial advice at the time, that it is that it was what you wanted to do?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or were you sort of spreading your net quite wide and looking at, I know there's a few more options back then with the banks, etc.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think it was finance.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think I, you know, I chose to do an economics degree because I I wanted to get into finance money.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the irony is for me that I often think of myself as a sort of square pegging around hole.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a very creative person.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I probably I'm probably not cut out for financial services.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think I would have been a much better designer or architect or film producer or photographer.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's they're my passions.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: I love design, I love, you know, I love fonts, I love websites, I like colours, I just what makes me tick.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: So to be in financial services that's very heavily regulated feels like a very weird place to operate in many ways.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I think pushing the boundaries, therefore, to go, right, we're a financial planning firm, but do we need to be black and white?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Do we need to be grey?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Can we introduce colour?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: How do we talk to our clients?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: How do we market ourselves?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Can we have a personality?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Can we be a brand that looks and feels much more like a sort of design agency rather than a financial planning?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's what we're trying to do.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: So part of it's me being the sort of the inner, the inner creative trying to sort of escape the financial services.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that gives us a bit of an opportunity to do things slightly differently.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you've also got quite an innate interest also in human behavior interaction, um, how we act, because I can see on your LinkedIn profile did a bit of research, you've, you know, you've done your mentorship qualification as well.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you mentor people by the science of it.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: You're also uh humans under management.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was watching that video as well around the behavioral science, behavioral economics.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got a keen interest in people, how we work and why we do the things we do.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh I think the sort of the whole behavioral, the sort of cognitive biases, the way the sort of psychology, the way we think about life is vast.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you are running any business, it doesn't matter what you're doing, whether it's financial planning or whether it's selling widgets, the way people think about the design and the way that people think about your marketing messages and the way the problems you're trying to solve and the issues that people have that are blind spots to them.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And people don't even know what they don't know.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: So to understand what those issues are in financial services, the people who do know and the people who don't know, trying to use the right language to talk to them, trying to identify some of those bias, help the clients we have to coach them through some of those biases to make good decisions consecutively.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: I talk about the sort of the compounding of good behavior.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like rather than the compounding of returns, it's the compounding of not selling at the wrong time or not getting distracted or not buying the latest cryptocurrency.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that compounding of good behavior by helping people is going to really be more successful than anything else.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I just think it has such a massive part to play in what we do as financial planners, but also in the way we market ourselves, how we talk to our team, how we talk to our clients.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So anyone that's interested in it, I should say, I think it's it adds massive value to what you're what you're doing.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think as well, with the the sort of dawn of coaches, you've got the coach now, haven't you?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got the financial planner.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, the internet is awash with coaches, financial coaches, you know, people telling people how to invest their money because you know they've got a lot of cash and they're sitting on the beach drinking pina coladas and they've made a load of money on the stock market.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's massively, massively worrying when you see see a lot of that stuff going on.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: So when I hear about financial planning firms that are also seeing the value of coaching and running that alongside their financial planning as a separate entity or intertwining it, yeah, that that that excites me a little bit.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's um as a consumer as well, myself, somebody that wants to, he doesn't know the ins and outs of financial uh planning, my finances.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm not I'm not brilliant.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And there's loads of us out there that earn decent money that haven't got a clue.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's important that the communication is so not dumbed down, but simplified to the point that I can understand it from an emotional perspective because I'm an emotional being, I make silly decisions off the back of feeling the same way.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the thing.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of this is again, this is where some of you I hopefully understand it is we all are suffered, we all suffer with these biases.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: So this, you know, this is this point of trying to, it's not this sort of patronizing, you're the client, I'm the advisor, I'm the no.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: This is something we all suffer with.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I know about it because I've understood it and educated myself in it.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So what I'm looking to do is pass that on.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: So don't think you're one of a kind, we're all prone to make these decisions.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, we you know, we say we do three things.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: One is the financial planning.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: What are the goals?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: What are the aspirations, what are the fears?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Let's build a plan to help get you where you want to be.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing is around the wealth management.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: You would do evidence-based investing, which sort of fits with the whole sort of psychology of management of money and just sort of sort of sitting and looking after long-term returns.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then the coaching is either the initial coaching, which is really helping people to get out of their mind, what are the things that they're really looking to achieve?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, rather than I want capital growth, what are the drivers?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what are the things that they want to get out of life?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: What are the things they're going to regret if they don't do?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then the ongoing coaching is just sort of that hand holding to make sure that people are making the right decisions.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you go back to COVID, big sell-off in the market, it's natural to panic about that.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: So step in, talk to your clients, right thing to do is nothing.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like exactly the wrong thing to do, but we know it's the right thing to do.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And also just, you know, there's so much noise in the media.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do this, do that, do that.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And just like right, keep focused on the plan.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we're doing.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is gonna what's gonna win.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: So just being able to constantly communicate that to clients is the is the way to win, I think.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, fantastic.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I did exactly the same.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: I reached out to a financial planner um during COVID um because I was in the right pickle.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, I massively calmed my nerves and just kind of gave me that confidence that where I was in the point in my life, I shouldn't be worried.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that actually don't be fearful of the situation.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Your situation is way better than so many others.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And just sit, continue what you're doing, continue saving, don't touch that, and um, and just carry on as normal.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember when I spoke to him, and it, you know, and that was that was free advice.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: He just calmed my nerves, and I was just like, fantastic.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I could see that that that psychological benefit of having that coaching, having that compassion side, compassionate side, which often gets um um, you know, historically, you know, emotion, um, compassion, kindness didn't really go hand in hand with the financial services.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: It hasn't really built a reputation about being from being kind.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's right.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's two points to that.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: One is sometimes the value of advice, sometimes you get questioned on fees, and you go, you know, I can think back, you know, that case there.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've won't put a number on it, but you can save someone, potentially hundreds of thousands of pounds, for one decision not to do something at the wrong time.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: You make your fee, you make a lifetime of fees turned on one occasion.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's why sometimes it's difficult when new clients they have to almost been through that process to go, you're going to feel like this at some point, and I'm going to be there to sort it out.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And until you've been through it, it's very difficult to then almost put themselves in that position.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we try our best to articulate it, but it's not always easy to do it.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think that, you know, hopefully it sounds like you've reached out to the right financial planner.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Not every financial planner and wealth manager is the same.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them will be panicking at the same time.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, here you see it.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like let's buy bonds, let's buy Japan, let's buy gold, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's break up the entire long-term investment strategy here because we're effectively panicking and we're we're create, we believe we're creating value by doing stuff the short term.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, it's short term short termism that destroys value.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I say I get frustrated sometimes when I read, what should I be doing during the latest market sell-off?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: The answer is nothing, but people feel like they have to add value in inverted commerce by coming up with the latest clever idea, which invariably destroys value over the longer term.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned as well, I think on your website, that you are a company of entrepreneurs.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: That you work with entrepreneurs.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Which kind of goes back to your self-assessment a second ago of being a creative.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you yourself consider yourself an entrepreneur and you work with entrepreneurs, and you're a business that's growing and you make mistakes and you learn from them and you know, and you move forward.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the types of clients that you like to work with are entrepreneurs.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I watched some of the client stories, which I really loved by the way.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: They were really, really great client stories.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think everyone can write a Google review or a trust pilot review, but I think taking the time to video um testimonials is fantastically powerful.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm rebuilding my website at the moment and branding, and it's an area that I'm gonna build into mine, is video testimonial.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I really liked it.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a very emotive story.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: I watched the guy, um, I've forgotten his name, but the chap who runs the the, he's a chef and he runs the restaurant.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was really, really good.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you've got that feel, and and is that also as well, from you being you, being that naturally creative person, you like to also work with people that have that have that high level of creativity, but sometimes possibly maybe drop the ball in other areas where you have to be, I don't know, technical, perhaps.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do you do you tend to draw towards those people more so than the kind of analytical mind, or are you a bit of both?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think I'm a bit of a weirdo that's both.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's uh sort of, you know, I think my brain is very it's it's it it can handle left and right in a you know in a way that sometimes they they fight each other and it sort of gives me a headache, but I've got quite an analytical mind.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: You spoke to any of the members of the team, it's like right, something needs to be the detail.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a detail focused person.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: I as I say I can't stand things that are almost right, it's either right or wrong.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very focused on getting that right.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: But as I say, I love creativity and uh I think the entrepreneurs are, I think there's just a lot of empathy that goes with it.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like right, and the point I often make to clients is look, you can go and work with a banker or you can go and work with a finance person employee, they don't understand what it takes to run a business.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: They are employees, they are safe in their roles.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's great, that's that's fine, then you know, and they're great advisors.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: But if you want someone who has been there, who understands those late nights where you're worrying about payroll, or you're worrying about the next next corporation tax change, or how your business is going to deal with cash flow over the next six months, or should I make this investment or that?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Come and talk to us because we're doing these things as we speak.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we have got that level of empathy.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're also financial planners, and we also do our own financial planning.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, we're what are we doing as Rob, what are Rob and I doing as the owners of First Wealth, as entrepreneurs, to do the financial planning to look at our cash flow to make sure that that works from a tax planning perspective, make sure that we're protected from shelter protection.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's a very authentic voice.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why I think that's probably why we do win so many entrepreneurial clients, because we talk the same language because we're the same sort of people.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's market because entrepreneurs tend to tend to network as well with other entrepreneurs, you know, and they're more inclined to recommend, aren't they, as well?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because if something works for them, they're very helpful.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: There isn't a competitive element to entrepreneurs.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're everyone's kind of pitched in trying to help each other.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I've noticed that even within historically, like recruitment was like horribly competitive, you know, firm to firm.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's just like we have all these networks of recruitment directors all helping each other because we've just realized that we all work in different markets.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you know, and if we can if we know something brilliant, then we'll pass it on.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And referral-wise, it's fantastic.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it's something I'd sort of learn, I suppose maybe confidence-wise, as I got older, I've I've learned to network more with owners of businesses because I just learned so much.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I can I can I can accelerate my growth of my business instead of sitting there on my own trying to work it out, which I did for so long.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was like painfully well, not letting go of something because I think I'll work it out, I'll work it out.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And all I have to do is turn to the right and ask somebody and they tell me.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the same as financial planning.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have a few groups, and we have something called the Ideas Exchange, which is sort of 40, 45 financial planners that meet every sort of month, every month to discuss, which is hugely helpful.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Got a couple of other, you know, there's a Spanish conference that we go out to annually to go out and speak to guys there, sort of, you know, 12, 15 advisors.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a lot of sharing of knowledge.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: But to go back to the point about the entrepreneurial, I think there's problems, some of some of the problems in financial services around sort of echo chambers, everyone's talking to themselves, everyone's sort of talking to the people who already know stuff.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, it's one of the reasons we wanted to become a B Corp, to almost to elevate ourselves slightly out of financial services and go, we need to be having conversations with businesses that are doing good things generally rather than financial services business.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: How can we learn from companies who are looking after the environment?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: What's the absolute best way to look after your team?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that shouldn't just be restricted to financial services, it should be the best companies to start with globally.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the that's the point.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: So who can we learn from?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very similar.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: When you reach out to the B Corp community, everyone is trying to do business for good.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a huge amount of knowledge and a huge amount of information that is shared freely.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we've we've we're learning all the time from that.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a positive step, but it just allows us then to have conversations with people who are entrepreneurs, doing good things outside of financial services, which is helping us build our network and community.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think as well, um, do you find though?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: So if you were saying if a financial I talk to financial planners that are quite at the early stages of their career a lot and they're trying to build their own clients up, perhaps they've gone to St.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: James's place, gone through the academy, and they're out there trying to win their new clients.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they say, Well, I'm I work with entrepreneurs and startups.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I often think, well, I don't know if that's a really good business plan.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for the very reason that most startups haven't really got a great deal of money, their heads, their heads are down, they're usually like struggling to pay themselves.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, they're not at a stage in their life yet where they can invest any money.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they might have some protection needs or whatever, they might want to buy a house or whatever, but they're not at the point yet where really um the way financial planning is now, where you're looking for people who've got a decent level of investable assets to be able to charge a fee that's acceptable.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes with these new starters, they should they they should dip their toe in that, but also be going after people that have got a bit more bit more money.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen a few financial planners really, really struggling because they're kind of going after all the glitz and the glamoury good-looking stuff, but it's not really leading them anywhere.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I sort of there's I agree with some of that.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think because it tends to tends to be then how you charge your fees.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we take a view.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, if a client comes through the door with 10 million pounds cash to invest, then that's great.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we found quite a profitable part of new starters and newer uh new setups where it's almost like, right, how do we Do this.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: So almost the entire journey from what do you need to do?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: From who's the accountant going to be, who's the lawyer, how are you going to get a shareholder?
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: How are you going to get your protection?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: What sort of pension do you need to set up?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Even to help them with things like their business plan, to talk about their culture, almost a sort of coaching session to say, what do you want this business to look like?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: What are the things that are going to help you drive this business forward?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Are you interested in how they're going to look after the environment?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess it's probably moving away from it is financial planning, but it's kind of financial planning with coaching.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: We do that on a sort of a fixed fee and then maybe on a retainer.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that we've actually found those clients quite profitable because obviously then as the business grows, they can start to sort of do more and save more, et cetera, et cetera.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also been a fantastic in for a to with accounts and lawyers.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: So here we are, somebody who from the start onwards, we can help these people to get themselves set up financially.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been very good.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: However, um, I'm, you know, I've said it before, I think everyone is into their niches and everyone has become so niche that if you are just focusing on that, you've got to find you've got to you've got to make profit.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to find clients that are going to do stuff.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I our view is let's not be too worried about where they are the journey.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, if it's someone exiting the business, everyone wants to talk to that person.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: But we all let's talk to the people starting off because they are going to be our long-term clients as well.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: So as long as we can do that profit spinning, we can add value, then we should be doing that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we we look across the whole range.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: So set up people building and then people exiting as well.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: The good thing about that as well is you're segmenting those types of clients that we talked about a second, but that I sort of mentioned a minute ago.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're sort of segmenting them.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: You created a fee-based model that runs alongside it for their whole journey in their early stages.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: That sort of nourishes the relationship, it nurtures the relationship.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So as they sort of go through it, A, they're sort of building a relationship with you, you're helping them at every step that's probably really stressful in the beginning.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, as that sort of tips the business and they're starting to make more money, bingo, you're in the right place, aren't you?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I should say, obviously it's our business.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I look at some of the stuff that you know Scott and Rob are doing, you know, it's mind-blowing how good it actually is.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's just unbelievably good.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: The work they're doing with these people, you know, for the fees they're charging, no one else is gonna do it.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't, I don't know any other financial services fan.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there are, but I don't know who could do what we're doing for them.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to create confidence, you want someone that's gonna stick with you for the long-term journey.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, right, we're gonna go out of our way to sort this out properly.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And the clients, you know, they're absolutely so respectful and happy with what we're doing.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's it's a great place to be.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, to have some of those clients starting off is fantastic.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I would super proud of the work we do.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, the I genuinely feel us, it's the idea of properly helping people, like at a time where you get good advice, it makes all the difference.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: You get bad advice, it can really cost you.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, someone strong, someone good at the right time is so important.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: It seems to me as well, with that with that sort of um framework for those typical types of clients, then you're also building a um a training and development program that can run alongside it, perhaps.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you are doing this, where financial planners are coming into your business.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps they're a little bit wet behind the ear, they don't have that uh process and structure down, as I alluded to with some of the guys that I come across, and they come into your business and instantly they can see a model that actually works, which they can follow and they can gain and get results from because it's been proven by some of the guys in your office already.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's the whole idea is that you know, we always save the point.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we've worked, Rob and I have worked out how to deal with a typical client.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Typical client comes through the door, they've got assets, they've got pensions, you know.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: We know how we do that.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: We do the coaching, we do the life goals, we do the financial plan, we do the evidence-based investing, we do the ongoing coaching.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's locked down.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: However, Scott and Rob in particular, they've they've built this structure for the new entrepreneurs.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: So from scratch, it's like, right, I've here's a referral from maybe a friend of a friend.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is what they're looking to achieve.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to sit down with that client and build the structure, how you would look after a startup from forward.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we we're only learning through through doing it.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: But now you're right, we have got an action plan.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we need to do in order to get you completely sorted out, even things like public liability insurance, stuff that would maybe not traditionally thought about through a financial planner.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Say, we don't need to actually do it, but need to signpost it.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is the list of things we will do for you, and these are the list of things that you need to do.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got all bases covered.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: But again, I can't imagine many financial planners are thinking about right, what are the core values of your business?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: What's the culture of the business?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: How are you going to respect your employees?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: What are you going to do for your employees?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: I again I can't imagine that's a typical financial planning conversation with most advisors.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you're also talking about, okay, cool.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you're also talking about the the the growth of their business and what to expect as they grow and what the staff require really to stay within those businesses and actually be happy.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you're talking about things like um benefits packages, are you talking about things like well-being packages, all that kind of stuff?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, exactly right.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And again, a lot of it will just be then leveraged from what we've done at first wealth.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: So this is where the crossover of we are doing this, so we've learned how to do it.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we can then obviously apply that to a company starting off.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is what First Wealth does, this is all the things that we can do for our staff, these are the things we do for our clients, this is what we do about the environment.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost a tick box of which of these things matter to you, which don't, and then we can give you guidance accordingly.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: But we wouldn't have known how to do that unless we've actually gone through that process ourselves within the business.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, brilliant.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we've been doing a lot of that over the last year.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've just put down a career framework for our business from taking some, as I mentioned to you before, taking somebody on from a trainee level all the way up to director level.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas before, being a size of a business that's around the 15 mark, when you had these superstars, you would almost kind of go, Oh my god, I need to put them into a I need to put them into a manager position, you know, because I need to I need to keep them, pay them a bit more money and put them into a manager position.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we made like mistakes around that over our time.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And now we've kind of segmented the structure of the business, the the process they go through to become to the point where they have to apply to become a director, not that it's a foregone conclusion just because you've been here long enough and you earn a decent amount of money.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: But what we've also done is alongside that, we've created the well-being process, you know, the well-being structure.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: So as they progress through the business, their well-being package gets better and better and better to the point where it's a limited holidays, um, healthcare, and like we sent the girls off to do some Reiki a couple of days ago.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we're very heavily invested in the well-being side that runs along alongside it as a reward, but also in recognition to the fact that they are working harder and the stress levels are going higher as well.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we're trying to sort of balance that out um as they progress through the business to be kinder to them, but also to outline exactly what their levels of responsibilities are as well.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think a lot with companies is that they'll they'll they'll they'll advertise a job, say, as a financial planner or a power planner, but they don't advertise what the they don't actually have a career framework for them.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, if you're coming at this level, this is where you're gonna go.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is the sort of learning you need to understand by the time you reach this point to reach this salary increase, or this is where your career could go with us.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um, a lot of companies just don't really do that.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I'll, you know, I'm honest to say we didn't, you know, we just didn't.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: We just chucked people in and and and expect them to get on with it.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as we started looking at that, massively different results.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think we we I mean we have a we have a structure for people coming through and you know, CRM or TET or technical analyst or financial planner, where they are on that journey, is quite we're very, very organized in terms of what we would expect from that.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think the one thing I've learned probably over the last 12 months is we need to be slightly more pragmatic with it.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, i.e., to say if someone is on a super fast sort of speed of going through this, you know, are they right?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do they, you know, going from a CRM into a power planning role to be a financial planner, don't just say that's a two-year, three-year, pro year process.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you've got someone super keen and super eager and super talented, then you need to be pragmatic because you want to give them the opportunity to get on with it.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I uh one of the things I'd be sort of stressing is that we need to, we need to not not everyone's everyone's path will be the same, and we just need to be able to justify how we make those decisions as we as we go forward.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, the same with us.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: We I mean everyone gets our, you know, we have gone full on with package in terms of benefits.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: We've we made the decision a few years ago.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: So everyone gets from well, as soon as you pass to your probation, you get well-being package, all of the medical stuff, all the holidays.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's all there for you.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then on top of that.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: So again, we just want to make sure that you know, fully flexible working hours.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: We just want to we want to give uh everything we can to the team.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we're gonna do for you.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: You pretty much, this is your job, you do it when you want, we'll pay you well.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you take your holidays, take your time off, do what you need.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Just I all I want you to do is to do your job well and to respect the business.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And as long as we're that's a relationship that's working well, then within reason, you can do what you like.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think I think it's been a again, that's been a big decision and a good decision for us a few years ago.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree 100%.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing how many, there's lots and lots of businesses out there that just don't do it.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like um, I'm putting an email out um this week actually, about the um the amount of feedback we get from candidates, where, you know, again, it's a candidate-driven market, there's loads, everyone's after a financial planner, everyone's after a power planner, you know, companies looking to hire, especially experienced.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: But these candidates have got so much choice at the moment, you know, they're going out and they're speaking to so many different companies.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the feedback I'm getting, when I if I ask for feedback and I say, like, you know, why you why are you going with those guys over that go over that company?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the time, it's because they just haven't been able to sit down with them and articulate the roadmap.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know where I'm going with them.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've got no idea.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas B Company have sat down and told me exactly where I need to go.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things you picks up on there, and I think you're absolutely right, if you've got an absolute superstar, some people don't, you know, a framework shouldn't be rigid.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it should be able to be in the power of the individual that's joined your business.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: If they have got the ability to get their head down and smash through it, there needs to be trigger points that they can trigger and they are in control of.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Same with my business.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: If people get to a certain point, they they move quicker through the business.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's as simple as that.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's that's that's right.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of a weird sort of thing that you know, uh for me, and again, I'll probably have people maybe criticize this, but there's an element of I think you need to be more a paraplanner role, it's a much more experienced technical role where you need to know inside out how things work.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's the case with a financial planner.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: A financial planner needs to have a decent understanding of how things work and they need to be brilliant with clients.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: They need to have the emotional intelligence to sit and to listen and to ask good questions, to acknowledge when they don't know, but they will find out, and then to come back and be supported by a team of people who do know.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, one of the things I challenge with the team about is right, right, we're putting three people through from CRM into TA.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: That person hasn't got the experience to be a TA, so that's going to hold them back because they haven't got all the exams, they haven't got five years experience.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I think they could be fantastic in front of the clients because they have got that style.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, is it right that they then sit as a two or three years as a technical analyst before they can become a financial planner?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's wrong.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't make any sense.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't make sense for the candidate or the member of the team, and it doesn't make sense for us as a business either.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: The candidate themselves are going to get resentful around that also.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's right, they'll leave.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the problem.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's so someone will offer them an opportunity, they'll go, I'm ready, uh, I think I can do this.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to recognize that.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, say not for everyone, there'll be different paths, but we just need to have that pragmatism to actually recognize that and go, how do we deal with that scenario when it presents itself?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that comes again from building a really good coaching plan with your staff, doesn't it?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: You coach your clients, coach your staff, just keep checking in, keep recognizing, isn't it?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we do now.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's right, it's communicating.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the other one of the big problems that we have is not we, but as a profession, is broken promises.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think so many people are told that if they do this, they will become a technical analyst or a paraplanner or a financial planner.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: They get to the point where I've done everything I need to.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we're not ready yet.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Can we just do another six to 12 months?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, it's one of the things.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: If we say we're going to do something, then we will follow through on it.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, it's about treating people with respect.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: If we make that promise, then we will we will deliver.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know this as well.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Within your business, you've got relationship managers.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: So is that more?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say, for example, someone goes down the route of becoming like a um a TA, is that like a technical analyst, is it?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, technical analysts is the language we use, the power planner, it's the same sort of thing.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Technical analyst, power planner.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've got somebody within your business that's showing those characteristics of really great, you know, communication skills, they're very outgoing, you know, they build great relationships.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lovely starting point as well, isn't it, for somebody to progress themselves into those client relationships and having to talk to people and then empathize with people, ask.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose is it is it almost like an amalgamation of being an administrator where you're kind of talking to product providers as well as clients and getting extra information?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or yeah, so the CRM, the client relationship.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the client relationship managers the sort of starting point into the business.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the idea is that they have contact with the companies and they also have contact with the clients as well.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: So just in terms of servicing and looking after any sort of needs that they have.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what we found is that those guys were getting bogged down a lot with talking to people like Prudential, Clerical Medical, you know, on the phone for two hours waiting or waiting for 90 days for their email to be responded to.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's if you've got bright people in your business, which fortunately we do, that's kind of quite heartbreaking, really.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: So what we've what we've tried to do is we've we well, what we have done is we built a what we call a back office support team now, which basically are the people who are working from home, they are dealing with the companies, they're putting in valuation requests, they're dealing with letters of authority.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we've taken that away from the client relationship managers so they can focus more on the managing the clients, talking to the clients, listening, etc.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: etc.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you're right, they start to build quite early a rapport, and you can tell, you know, some people are more confident in that than others.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some people prefer to do it, some people want to be paraplanners and technical analysts, and some people want to be financial planners.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, again, one of the problems that we've you know always had, it was always seemed that the only way to go is to be a financial planner.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: So all roads lead to financial planner, and I think you know, I guess basically back to what I was saying earlier on, a good paraplanner or good technical analyst are worth their weight in gold because they are so critical to the business and also difficult to find that people at that level with that level of experience, a sort of you know, sort of technical gold that you can go to and go, right, what's going on here?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they just know.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is that is worth its weight in gold.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we're trying to encourage by changing some of the remuneration structure and maybe probably make it even more positive around TA and paraplanet type role to say this is a career um for you.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to do that, you can earn really good money and you can get a great career at first wealth, rather than thinking I'll just sit on this and then become a financial planner later.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: So again, that's a probably a mistake that we've made.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um one that I think we've addressed probably a year or so again.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're still we're still trying to make it more attractive now for people to come in and go, I want to stay in that role because it adds a huge amount of value to our business.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think power planning as well, being such a new, being such a new role to the profession anyway, it's it's not had that, that's not had the the breakdown of the career progression within it.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's starting to be developed.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: I had Sean um Davies Cole um on the podcast who um she's an outsourced power planner now, charted, very, very good.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we were talking about that, you know, like power planning is an amazing route to go down for the right person and the right skills.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not you, you know, it's not, I don't believe it's the route, it can be the route to becoming a financial planner.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: It can be the route to becoming a financial planner, but people need to see that there is an end goal to power planning as well, that you can progress through the power planner career path.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And she was in complete agreement with that.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: She runs um the power planner club.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um one of the bugbearers that she has is that you know, power planners are not naturally outgoing type confident people, extroverts, you know, they tend to be more introvert.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: And through her power planning club, she believes that power planners need to raise their game more so to be that confident communicator also with the financial advisors and not feel so segmented and an off, you know, and you know, over there in that corner, there's the power planners.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the, you know, here's the here's the hotshot financial advisors.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: And she was saying about communication between power planners and financial advisors need to be far stronger.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it needs to be led by power planners.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what she's doing in her club.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: She's kind of building confidence with power planners to understand their value, what they do, and how to communicate because not all firms have 10 power planners sitting in a back office with them all to banks off of.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, they tend to have more financial advisors, and the power planner is supporting the foot the financial advisors.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we the way we work, we work in pods so that all of the advanced, so the pods are three, so financial planner, technical analyst, CRM.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the group.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: So that we're encouraging by building the back office support, by taking away more and more of the responsibility of things like valuations and talking to providers, we're basically pushing everyone up the value chain.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: So what we're looking for the technical advisor, technical analysts and the financial planners to be in the client meetings together so that they are getting exposure to those clients.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the way that we've worked is, you know, Rob myself, I you know, I look after a very, very small number of clients now, but most of those are serviced by one of the team members.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we've moved to the client panel to someone like Claire, who's a uh was my technical analyst for many, many years.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: She's now a financial planning director in First Wealth.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: But because she'd worked with our clients for so long, when the moment came to transition those clients, she knew them all.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: The clients were incredibly happy, and she she her confidence has grown to do that job.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And she's you know, she's getting better and better all the time.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: The development she says is unbelievable.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the same with some of the other sort of team with Rob Kaplan, my business partner.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to transition some of Rob's clients to maybe some of the advice planners, uh, technical analysts becoming training financial planners, but people have known those clients for the last year or two.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: So there isn't this sort of what's going on.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's an element of just I think there's an element of respect with for the clients.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: These clients have trusted us to look after them, to be there for them.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: So to transition to someone that they know that they've been dealing with for a year or two, I think it for us just feels like the right way to do this.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: So on your website as well, I I I noticed I'm I'm very interested in the future of financial planning.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: I like the idea of the interest, you know, I've got a real interest in the future of financial planning.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reading a book called Scary Smart at the moment about AI, um, which is quite interesting.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so the future of financial planning is something of major interest to me.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: But also on your site it says you're a modern financial planning agency.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: So what I'm quite interested to understand is what what do you think makes a modern financial planning firm?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what's what is a modern financial planning firm?
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think for me it's well, I think it's the coaching and the financial planning.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think the modern is proper financial planning.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know people argue that financial planning has been around for a long time, but uh I think it's it's the gathering momentum in terms of real pace in terms of the thing.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the ability to sit with a client and talk to them about them and their life rather than about products.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is that's what financial planning feels more modern to me than the conventional here's a bond, do you want to buy it?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a with profits bond, sort of thing.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think coaching is is is something that really is is is new to the profession.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think people will argue that they've had coaching conversations with clients for years, and I probably agree with them.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think it probably a lot of it's around just good comp good communication, good conversation.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: But to the difference, I guess, is to then try to almost bake it into your process.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than it happening by accident, that every financial planner or every TA that's talking to a client has a skill set to be able to do it.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you are making it uh a practice that you do you do within the business regularly.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there, I guess those two things.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the way that we, you know, evidence-based investing again, I'd say is modern because I think you know, all people with my views on active management versus evidence, but if you get to grips with the numbers, you you really can't argue against evidence-based investing.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the way money should be invested.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then it's around technology.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we're building, or we're in the process, we talk about digital advice technologies, we're building our own onboarding software.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, one of the challenges we have is that software is very disjointed in our world.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you have a CRM, you have a marketing CRM, you have a fact find, you have a service data, you have a risk profiler, you have money laundering, all of those things that need to be done are risk, you know, they all need to be done before you onboard a client.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you're sending a client, right?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Can you do your money laundering over here?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can you sign this uh you know, Docu sign over here?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: Can you send us this data?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's what it's sort of called death by a thousand cuts.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of this idea that clients are exhausted before they've even started.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, give me any more tasks, I can't handle it.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we've built our own software that takes into account those sort of six things, get the client on boarded quickly.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately, I want that to then start to work towards how does that become a way of automating advice.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, what again talk about AI?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would like to be able to do so based on a client that looks like you with your detail, this is the sort of thing potentially your advice could be appropriate for.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: So leading through, analyzing uh open banking, looking at what sort of level of monthly amounts are available to the regularly save, what amount of cash they've got, would that make a suggestion to say, right, there's your goals that we've worked out, that was what we need to save.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Here's a platform that could do that for you.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is the portfolio that we recommend based on your risk profile, build in suitability letters and that sort of automatic of then the annual suitability letter, MiFID 2 reporting.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I want to get to with this stuff.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we've we've made a start, um, but that's that's the future.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you get to the stage where I talk about something called evidence based financial planning.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than evidence based investing, evidence based financial planning is going should I be in drawdown or should I do an annuity?
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now, at the moment, that's very objective.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: An advisor goes, I've got a bias that favors drawdown, I've got a bias that favors an annuity.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what drives advice.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: But you should know, given the fact that Where their health is, what their health is, what postcade they're in, how much money they've got, what their life expectancy is, a mathematical model will tell you what the actual evidence is for whether you do drawdown or annuity.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the future.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: The data's out there, but we haven't got to the situation where it's available to give advice.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's the few evidence-based financial planning is the future.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of the reason we're into the onboarding stuff because that's we want to be into that game.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think building that data as well?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that will come?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: I know we've, you know, robo advice and all of that kind of thing.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was talked about so much.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: But do you do you believe that AI will do you do you have an idea?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that AI will possibly replace that?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because if it's a mathematical equation and the data is being collected, and let's look at massive companies such as like St.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: James's Place for etc.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And they have huge amounts of data.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the data that's available anyway when you've got that sort of money to to partner up.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think AI will be able to or do you have any thoughts around AI and financial planning and how it could possibly just replace the need for the human-to-human contact?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think it'll ever replace the need for human contact, but I think it can get I think it can get the advice to 90% of where it needs to be without any human interaction.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's my gut feeling, isn't it?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: To say you've got to the stage, right?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know the fact finds, you know the clients, you know their objectives, you know where they're trying to get to.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've had a client for a while, you if the problem that most firms have is they haven't got the data in a way that is actually you can analyze it.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because what you should be able to, you know, for example, you should be able to analyze, right?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: If I was talking to my clients during the pandemic in 2020, I should be able to rate them on a scale of one to ten, how panicky they were around their investments.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that data, that's okay, it's a subject depth, that goes into a system.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: You then get to the stage where that system, the investments are almost automating, right?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: We know the drop in the market, we know how panicky that client was.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: The whole automation of that ongoing advice to go, that client's probably likely to be panicking at the moment based on what's just happened with the portfolio.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: We should be automating advice or automating communications based on that.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: Say, remember, we talked about these biases.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we this is just a reminder that we've discussed it.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Don't panic, we see it's going on.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: That client hasn't asked for you that communication.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just come to them and go, wow, that's amazing.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was just thinking about speaking to my advisor, but the tech should be there to do it.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same with the advice, it's the same with you know what are the things they need to do, how much money does the client need to generate the level of income?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: You say you could get scraping of bank accounts, open banking, just right, how much is a client saving?
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: How much are they spending?
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: What's discretionary?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: What do we think based on what we know of other clients they're going to need in retirement?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: You then extrapolate that forward, how much do they need in their pension pot or investments at retirement?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: When are they likely to retire?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: How much income can that give them?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: What's their investment return?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: You need to do this pension and this tax planning, right?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's sort of done.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you can almost automate 90%.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_01: You get to say, You're my client, right?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: We the system has done all this.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just want to just jump on the phone and go for the recommendation of you.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe you don't even need that.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there is a point where some clients just say, you maybe a discount say, right, the premium service is the advisor input.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe a purely AI-driven advice is a lower cost, which would make sense.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: And some of some clients will go for it.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: If they're if the belief in the technology and the data is right.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: So robo advice is just, you know, robo advice so far has been a joke.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's basically it's a it's it's essentially it's a risk profile with a portfolio that goes behind it.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's there's no advice.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's basically you're a five out of ten, buy this portfolio.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's not advice.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's just road, that's just it's automated investing, essentially.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: But this, what we're talking about here is the ability to analyze data, analyze behavioral things, and to work out objectives and to give real solutions that are going to solve financial problems.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's gonna come.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: It will be the people who can master the data and then have the ambition to do it.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's gonna come.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it will come.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: It will do, it will come, it's no doubt it's gonna come.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the group you know your stuff as well around automation because you know you're absolutely spot on automating those processes where you can predict the bias, predict what they're going to be feeling, and being able to pull off and extrapolate that data in a real digestible form that lands on a text message or in their inbox when you know they're gonna be shitting themselves because the market's got a bit funny.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's powerful stuff because that's taking huge amounts of administration, huge amounts of, and it's not taking away people's jobs, it's just enhancing the service that, as you say, the coach runs alongside.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love what you said there about you know, someone can go through the process and like that.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is 0.25% charge.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if you want to have the full full advice around this, if you want to tap into some, if you want to talk to a human just before you press go, then press this button on the app and then you'll be speaking to a coach.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can book in a time to speak to a financial planner um at a time that suits you.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I really like that.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's a company called Claro uh Claro Money.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Have you heard of them?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think I know the name.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know much about the business.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: London-based one, and and and they're doing that.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: They've got like this um a bit like we just said there about the portfolios, you know, attitudes of risk.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: You go in, you pick the things you want, but if you want any kind of advice, it's not financial advice, it's the coaching.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you tap into you you buy the app, you can do all your investing, but what runs alongside it is the coach.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you go in and there's a live coach there, and you can tap into it whenever you want.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that was quite a lovely thing that I could see sitting alongside for thinking financial planning firms.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's right.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the thing is, it's interesting that um our friends at the FCA, you know, get a lot of stick, um, rightly so.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but one of the things they do well is they create a huge barrier to entry to come into financial services.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: The sort of stuff we're talking about, you're right, who is best enabled to do the data analytics, the algorithms to do the AI, right?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: The two players, I mean Facebook and Amazon, right?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: They're the two companies that are going to do it.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: So the reason they won't do it, I think, is they will look at the FCA and the UK regulatory system and just think, nah, I cannot or do have no desire to get into that marketplace.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: So my feeling is that the regulator will almost protect the people, the incumbents in our profession, which is great if you're in it, but then that leads to a massive lack of innovation because you're not getting people with the data, with the funds to come in and to really shake things up.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it's another conversation as a regulator.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they have their sandboxes and people allowing, and I think it's one of the reasons a lot of the robo advisors have fallen over, where they've looked at what their robo advice is and said, you can move that pension to this one, um, but there's no suitability.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you've just moved the client from one pension to another.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's they've tripled their charges.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's that's inappropriate advice.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: So all of the robo advisors are all of a sudden rowing back into a hybrid advice model where someone actually looks at it and starts talking to the client because the technology has led to inferior client outcomes.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the problem.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be able to manage that as well.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's that's the real tricky part.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be amazing when we have all these quantum computers that are actually almost sentient beings that are learning from each other and breeding other kinds of AI within that infrastructure off the back of people's behaviors around the choices they make, around money, where they live, what's that what job they're in.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be so, so like ridiculously interesting because AI essentially will be able to make a decision.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's like by third 2030 something, they're gonna be eight billion times more intelligent than human.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like you can't hide from the fact that AI is going to be a massive part of every decision that we make.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like computers have been negotiating with each other on stocks for years.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, you know, they're always kind of negotiating with each other and they can get themselves into problems, and AI will no doubt get themselves into problems.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I I can see it being in every walk of life, but definitely within financial, definitely financial.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: You can get to the stage where, you know, I think it's kind of and the challenges to then tap into because you can you can almost have a you know, imagine sort of Google glasses that almost have like you know a financial planning screen in them.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, right, given this situation, what do I need to do?
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, that can just tap into the network and say, right, based on everything I know, you don't need to be a financial planner.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're basically getting the you're getting the crowd knowledge of the best financial planners, all financial planners in the world, right?
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: Based on this, this is what you need to do.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the only bit that then it needs to do is it needs to then understand how you're feeling about that.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure how you get to that, but then we're talking about how you interact AI with neuroscience, and then we're into a different game completely from an ethical perspective, potentially, that probably may come.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's probably where we're gonna end up.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: But they'll learn, they'll learn emotional intelligence as well, you know, no doubt.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: Until I've been reading about it, I'm going on about it too much.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um it is exciting, it's interesting, it worries me a little bit because what we're doing now as human beings is dictating what these this AI is actually going to learn about us and the decisions that we make.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got to start being a bit more uh kinder, compassionate, and all the nice things that come along and be a bit nicer when we're putting our stuff out there.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of learns to be not so harsh and um making the wrong decisions.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um moving on from AI and the future in Terminator, what about this B Corp that you've got with your business?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because um, you know, I haven't come across many financial planning firms.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's a few out there.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned a few like Paradine Norton, for example, in Bristol, that have got it, but you've got it, you've had it for a little while.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: What benefit is having a B Corp um associated with your business?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so the first process was really uh our evolution.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we started off by you know wanting to be a charter financial planning firm.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we've achieved that.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we I think we're, you know, we're good at financial planning, so that's great.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: So what else is there?
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: So now we want to be a great business, uh, not just in financial planning, but sort of transcending financial services.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do we do that?
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: We needed a framework to think about business opportunities.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: And B Corp came along, uh, as Record Mill suggested, at one of these ideas exchange uh meetups that we I attend every sort of month.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's basically a framework where it looks at how you look after your clients, how you look after your team, how you govern yourself, how you deal with the community, um, and how you look after the environment.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: So they're the sort of five parts to it.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I said to Kerry, our practice manager, I want to go through this process.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, what it enables you to do is it it was a huge spreadsheet that you feel like 200 questions about every aspect of your business, but broken into those five component parts.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: And what it's done is it it showed where we were doing well, but it also I did talk about cognitive biases, it's identified loads of blind spots.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like a call, like, wow, that I didn't even think that was anything.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: So there were things that we were doing well, like looking after our team, but for example, around the environment, how do we measure how do we measure our carbon emissions?
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: How do we offset them?
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: How do we learn about that?
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: What's scope, the difference between scope one, two, and three?
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: How does that impact what can be done?
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we've basically used the B Corp once we we got eventually signed off for August last year, I think so, whatever, 15 months ago.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're using it now as an ongoing framework to look to improve that that business.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, what else can we do for our clients?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: How do we measure the impact that we have on our clients' life?
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, traditionally, that's always been done by a your portfolio's gone up by 5%, which is uh it's it's in is I think it's inadequate because it's kind of really, if we want to get this proper, it's like how does the client feel about their money?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: How is their client's financial well-being impacted by what we've done?
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: Do they feel more confident?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do they feel more happy?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do they feel that they're more in control of their finances?
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: Do they feel like they're living a better life?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's ultimately what we're trying to do.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: But it's easy to say that.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: How do you actually measure it?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's created some sort of head scratching in the business.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: The team stuff, we've just gone full accelerating to.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: We are going to be the most uh sort of progressive employer that we can be and give everything we've got to our team and say, right, this is what we're gonna do for you guys.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: We respect the work you do.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: We love having you here.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: We'll give you everything you've got, everything we've got, and what we want back from you is to deliver and to do a great job for our clients.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: We've done that.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: The environmental stuff, we do things like this offset scope one and two emissions.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're looking at scope three, which is around the investments that we make for clients, which is a bit of a head scratcher as well.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: We do tree planting, 30 new trees for every client we take on.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then we're doing community, which is probably one of the bits I'm most proud of.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: We've got a financial education brand called Let's Talk About Money that's on Instagram.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: So we're building that up.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a free service to millennials and Gen Z around people who maybe aren't in the position to talk to a financial planner yet, but they want to learn about the basics of saving, budgeting, pensions, uh, how to buy a house, how whether it's better to buy or rent, whatever those things are.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we're building out content now, and we've got four of them team members who are doing that on a regular basis on Instagram and just to go onto TikTok as well.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that's something that we're super proud of.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got the ability to really influence uh clients who aren't ready at that stage.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think we looked at the other day, we had 1.5 million impressions of people who had looked at the uh the Instagram posts uh since we started less less than less than 12 months ago.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: So our view is what can we do to the community?
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we can we could give charitable donations and do things, but you know, our knowledge base is financial services.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: So let's try to share knowledge with people maybe who have been excluded because of the advice gap or aren't ready for that journey yet.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love the community element.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think anything where you can give back to people without expecting something in return, that altruistic approach always fills you with a fills you with joy anyway, makes you feel good, you know.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mentor I mentor a few people and I don't get anything for it, but it's been the most fulfilling thing I've ever done in my life, seeing their lives change.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um I love it.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if people come to me and they're asking me how to get into the financial planning profession, you know, historically, your brain goes, I kind of got time to talk to you because you're not going to make me any money.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm starting to develop this kind of um process that I can put them through that gives them value, it gives them something to go away with.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I have loads of messages again come back, sort of saying, like, you know, that 20-minute conversation you had with me, Sam, has got me a job.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I, and you know, I may not make any money out of it, but I feel good about it.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody's a lot of people.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's you know, that's what our mission statement really is, is to say to be a business for good that creates positive change in financial services.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, we all know the issues that are there.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's sort of, you know, this sort of traditional view of maybe greed and self-interest and you know, white middle-aged man and it, you know, not an inclusive or diverse profession, one that sort of very much looks after its center.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what we're saying is, what can we do?
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: If we're going to say what's the polar opposite of that sort of business, then that's what we're we're trying to do.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, no, we haven't got everything figured out yet.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what it does is it creates a real sense of unity within the team to say this is, you know, let's continue to be great financial planning firm, but let's see if we can really influence the wider profession.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I've got no doubt that we are doing.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: I see a lot of stuff where people are doing things, and I do think that we are starting to influence the way people are doing business, which is great.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, we want to do that in a positive way.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: We don't expect anything back from it, but you know, again, it's about what sort of how do you want to be remembered?
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, charter financial planning firm, great, love that.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a business that really does things and check creates changes is something that we're all committed to.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's about evidence-based financial planning as well, isn't it?
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: So evidence-based financial planning, but evidence-based business ownership.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, are you are you really, you know, if you're B Corp, then you have to evidence it.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I and I like that.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've been looking into that B Corp actually.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's a couple of recruitment agencies that I know that have adopted that and they've created a model around it.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've just created a recruitment agency, a separate one, which is called um Down to Earth, which focuses on ethical and positive impact companies.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and and that's been really, really interesting.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got a guy in there running that, and that's opened our eyes up.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think anything like that, and especially when you're trying to attack attract talent to your business and clients, it's it's everything, isn't it?
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: People want to know that you are, you know, you're doing good, and you're not greenwashing, you're not sticking a label on it and just saying that you're this, that you actually are evidencing it and displaying it, and you're doing it through your websites, your YouTube channels.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's great content as well, isn't it?
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels good.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: It does feel good, and I think that's the thing.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing I always say to the team is let's not talk about what we're doing, let's talk about what we've done.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, again, I see it all the time.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: We are going to be this, we're gonna be a B Cop, we're gonna do, we're gonna be fully net zero, we're gonna do we're gonna let's, you know, that's great signposting to some extent, but I you know, I want to see proof.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say let's talk about what we've done and let's be accountable to our actions rather than what we're what we're saying.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think that's a really important thing for us is that if we're gonna say this, we have to be held to the highest standards because we're doing it rather than just talking about it.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: No time like the present, I agree.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: Spend your time living in the actual fantasy of success without actually doing anything about it.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the thing is a lot of this stuff is hard and it's not easy, you know, working out, you know, get it's you there is an element of right, if we're gonna give all our team this flexibility and benefits, it's gonna cost money.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to take a view on it.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like there is a business decision there to say, is it the right thing to do?
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna be fundamentally from a short-term cash flow perspective?
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna hurt the bottom line?
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: Of course it is, but is it the right thing?
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: Do you take a view that doing these things is the right thing to do for our company longer term to change perception?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: Then it is.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think, you know, ultimately, looking after your team does create longer-term profitability.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_01: But again, that's my view.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people would see it very differently.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same with in the environment, you know, how do you reduce your emissions?
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: Going, getting people to commute to the office every day is not a great idea from an environmental perspective.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: So we've taken the view that people should have flexible flexibility around that.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: One is because it helps them with their lifestyle, but also it reduces carbon emissions.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: But again, it's it's is that you know, is that the right way for everyone?
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people go, I need you.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: You see it post-quality, you've got to be, you know, the whole working from is an aberration, you've got to be your desk from nine to six.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: I just, I just don't get that sort of stuff.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: I just find my view is have you learned absolutely nothing from what's happened over the last five years.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: I bet you talk about emotional intelligence and looking after your team and you're not listening at all.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just find it bizarre, but there we are.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: Flexible work.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think when people became so rigid, oh, everyone's got to either work from home or they've got to be in the office.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, they don't.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: You just give them that, you just trust your staff to be able to work the way they want to work.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to get the best results.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure that you monitor those results.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: If your foot's coming off the gas, then suggest that they come into the office or ask the question, why is your foot coming off the gas?
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they need to be around people, maybe they're too they're too inexperienced to be at home on their own.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's not serving them well and they're stuck in a bad habit around it.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you know the thing is though, that the the view, my view, is to let people work that out for themselves.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: Don't mandate it for them.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: Don't say you've got to do this.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: People will work out, people are intelligent.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: You trust them.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: They will work if they feel that they work better from coming into the office, they'll come into the office.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: If they prefer the quietness of a couple of days at home, they'll do that.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it just seems weird that you would upset.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: I see, you know, you saw when Steve Cook put his stuff out um around Apple, uh, you know, you all got to be in the office, and all his staff wrote back saying, sorry, buddy, that's not happening.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is the political damage you're doing to your business by getting those mistakes, making those mistakes?
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: I just it it it shouldn't be this hard, but people they seem to be scoring own goals all over the place.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's control from a place of fear, isn't it, as well?
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you're in a place where you're running a business, perhaps you're you know you're a business owner that upstairs is fearful that your business isn't perhaps going to is going to fail if all of a sudden you make these changes.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you put these controlling actions in place to kind of try and keep it secure.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, all you're doing is creating a toxic it's a top, it's toxic in your own mind and it's filtering down into the people.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's not normal, but also around recruiting talent.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: You say we talk about recruitment, but it's like right, we get so many CVs through our door, just on, you know, sort of just not really for any particular role saying, is there a role that I can come and work for you?
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen what you're doing.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: My current employer wants me back in the office nine till five every day.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want that, I want some flexibility, and it's just like, well, why would you risk your high-quality people not just to be a bit more pragmatic?
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: But there we are.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to take the be the uh the the winner of uh people coming to us and looking for jobs, you know, that's fine.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: It works, it works if you've got the confidence to do it.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I think again, you've got to have that framework in place, you've got to have that trust, the right values within the company, and it fills us down.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing I definitely, definitely have seen is when it does come to hiring new staff, we're able to be a bit more picky about who we actually want because we can go for those people that I don't know that display the right, the right character traits, you know, not just desperate because I want somebody sat on a phone smashing the phone for you know, an offer.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I hate that environment, I hate it.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: I hate the whole thing, like I used to wear suits and ties, and I'm so glad that it's changed.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy in your video when you you moved down to Dorset, didn't you?
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: You moved to Dorset, you know, you were in you lived in Ballum, was that right?
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: Ballum, yeah, that's right.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we lived in Ballum and uh we got a young daughter's Lux is six now, so we when she was one, we talked about moving out, and it's an element of practice what you preach.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'd lived in London for a long time.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: I loved it, but it was getting to the stage I didn't want to be here anymore.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, right, can we go from London?
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_01: My business will stay in London, and we're gonna live down by the beach, and I'm gonna move with Petra and Lux and live a great lifestyle.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I can do the things that are important to us, which is very simple, which go for a walk, go for a swim, go for a bike ride, um, and we'll make it work.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the first year or two, I was commuting up two or three days a week, and it was tiring, but that's the you know, that was the payoff.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, COVID hit, and we've been pretty much at home ever since.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: But move moving out was one of the, you know, one of the best decisions we've ever made.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, we're so much happier and more relaxed now.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're away.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there were so many biases at play, you know, to make that decision.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: What if I miss the fear of missing out, or you know, is it the right time to do it, or what are my clients going to think of it?
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, and it was weird.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: I sort of got myself into a real quandary in my own head about whether it was right or wrong.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll probably, you know, I shouldn't have done because it's like once we once we came out, it was it was the best thing is the best thing we've ever done.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think as well with these types of things, and that's what's nice about that B Corp one, is it's like a gradual change.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you can't just go from like, oh, tomorrow this is what we're gonna do, because you do have these unconscious, you have these biases in your head, these beliefs and these thoughts that and they're gonna come out and they're gonna proper come out.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: The monkey's gonna be throwing shit around everywhere, you know, in your head, and you're gonna be like, uh, how do I deal with this?
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the B Corp thing and gradually doing things and gradually having to do it, it's a it's the healthier way to do it.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agreed.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: And this is another great piece of advice that I read in the book is like the step in the right direction.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: So this, I think, yeah, people get caught up in this idea that they need to know what perfect looks like, and until they've identified what perfect is, they they then use that as an opportunity to justify themselves to do nothing.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's kind of like the idea of you know, the sort of thing like, well, China's not going to offset its uh, it's gonna continue to uh fire coal power stations, right?
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, I'm not gonna do anything because they're gonna do that, so there's no point.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: And again, that's I don't get that.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's like right, we don't know fully how to offset scope three, because I don't think anyone's really done it in financial services yet.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm very certainly interested in in working out.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: But does that mean I don't need to do anything?
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, I can still work out scope one and scope two.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: I can offset all of the travel uh emissions for all of our staff, which we've also done as well.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: So not just our business, but all of the commuting for our staff as well.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we do that annually.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a step in the direct direction?
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: Is it perfect?
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: Of course not.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: But is it better than where we were?
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: Then yes.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: So anything in our business that is a described, I would describe it as a step in the right direction.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm fully engaged to say let's let's do it.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it changes you as a person as well, doesn't it?
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: As well, because you're going through the process um internally, intrinsically, not just extra.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned the book there.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_00: Was that the B Corp book?
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or is that like a butt?
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is there you mentioned a book?
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: So was it a book about biases, or what was it?
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, a book.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um that was a well read about um, I can't remember which one particular.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'll tell you what, I mean, the the the person who talks best about biases and understanding of outcomes in life is uh Matthew Seid, the guy that writes for the Times.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_01: Here's some of his books are brilliant.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um Banks back.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_01: Is it Bank?
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: Matthew Seid one called Banks, didn't he?
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_01: Was that Rebel Ideas is one of them?
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there's a few he's got.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_01: They are mind-blowing in terms of thinking about outcomes.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, like, you know, why are the best football players in the world from Brazil?
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is that purely by chance, or is that because of the way that their lives have created to make the best football players?
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_01: And why are why is the aeronautical uh profession safer than people going in for a surgery or on a heart and how they report and things?
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's some of the stuff he writes about and around neuroscience and around cognitive biases as well.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's mind-blowing.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: So anyone listening to wants to sort of upskill on that, yeah, I'd recommend any of his books.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're absolutely fantastic.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: We've been talking for quite some long, you know, a long time.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: I could talk to you for quite quite a while, actually.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but um, I've got to bring this to an end.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_01: I've enjoyed it, thank you.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, I really, really appreciate your time.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_00: Really lovely to talk to you, and um good luck with the business because it looks fantastic from the outside looking in, it looks great.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no doubt that you're building something there which is attractive.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, I've worked in the recruitment industry now 13 years within financial planning.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you stand out, mate.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_00: And not like a sore thumb, like a good thumb.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you, thank you very much.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_00: Nice one, all the best.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers, Sam, take care.
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_01: Cheers.