Latest / The Speak Life Podcast / Prodigal to Preacher: Dave Jensen || SLP534

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Prodigal to Preacher: Dave Jensen || SLP534 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:00
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• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was an adulterer, violent, a liar, just a scumbag, you know, and I'm the worst bloke you've never met.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: I had this feeling that, oh my goodness, one day I'm gonna stand before that God and I'm stuffed.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I'm completely stuffed.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the one true God, he opens blind eyes, you know, and it was honestly, it was that.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, wait a minute.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Are you saying what I think you're saying?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that my sin has not disqualified me for God's kingdom, it qualified me for his grace.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus told the story of the younger brother who left the family home and went into the far country to squander his father's wealth in while living.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: But eventually, he gets turned around, reconciled back into the house, and it's one of the great good news stories of the Gospels.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Dave Jensen, my guest for today, is the quintessential prodigal son.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: He left a very Christian home and wandered for a very long time before rediscovering faith in Jesus Christ.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's turned him around, put him on his feet, and made him a wonderful evangelist who is telling good news all over the world.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: We get into his early years, we get into his wilderness wanderings, we get into his return to Christ and what it was that brought him back, and we talk about what it is that's actually bearing fruit as Christians reach out today.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Dave Jensen is spending his life in telling the gospel to others and equipping local churches to share that good news.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: He has some fascinating things to say about what people are responding to in the year 2024.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's a conversation I really enjoyed and I learnt so much along the way.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you will too.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So here's my conversation with Dave Jensen.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: The Sydney Diocese uh under God, uh, you know, when when the first fleet came to Australia, John Newton and William Wilberforce were really insistent on um the Bible being brought out with the prisoners, you know, and and so that meant the chaplain, all that stuff.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: So Sydney Anglican churches um traditionally have been Bible, evangelical, you know, Bible-believing churches.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so yeah, I work for an organization at the center of the diocese which aims to help ministers and churches uh reach more people with the news of Jesus uh better.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: So Sydney Anglicanism has quite a history in Australia.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: You've got quite a history with Sydney Anglicanism, uh, born into a great dynasty.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for the for those uh who are unaware of uh the family into which you were born, just give us give us a flavour for the kind of evangelical royalty you were born into, Dave.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Evangelical royalty in Australia.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit like being the best cricketer in Scotland.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit like being the best cricketer in Scotland, isn't it?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not much, it's not much of an achievement.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um but nonetheless, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I'm the youngest son of a man called Peter Jensen.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: And Peter, uh, when I was growing up, he's the principal of a big theological college here, well, the only kind of Anglican theological college.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but then he became the Archbishop of Sydney.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and in Sydney, there's enough churchgoers that that was yeah, a moderately big deal.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: I remember there was newspaper articles about it at the time and that kind of stuff, and he was in the press all the time.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but his brother Philip, um, my uncle, is also a very well-known minister in Sydney.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: My brother Michael is a well-known minister, uh, my in-laws, all that kind of stuff.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, yeah, I was brought up um around pastors and pretty funny enough though, that my dad, he was the first Christian in his family.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So my dad was converted.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: A man called Billy Graham, famous evangelist, of course, uh, came to Australia in 1959 and my dad became a Christian there.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but it's funny that uh it changes the trajectory of families, you know, the gospel, that uh the whole trajectory of my family line changed.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, but where?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh a whole bunch of Christians, yeah.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So in that 1959 uh crusade to Sydney, my grandmother uh on my father's side, she went forward at Billy Graham, and um she was a formidable woman.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: She was she was um New South Wales, she was she was either like the president or or she was high up in the New South Wales Communist Party and and kind of goes forward at Billy Graham, and that completely changed the direction of her life and then down through the generations through through my life, I guess.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Where you could have been, Glenn.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Where you could have been now.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you could have been calling me comrade.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, honestly, it was an incredible thing that you know I read a statistic about the other day that one quarter of the entire Australian population three million people, which at the time, Aussie population, 12 million, one quarter of the population went to see Billy Graham.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so that's that's you know, he's a Taylor Swift of his day, if you'll you know, really just everyone went and um it was just it's a huge spiritual uh moment in Australia, yeah, for sure.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and we m we might get into um the difference in the spiritual temperature today, um thinking whatever it is, 75 years on.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um what what is the what is the difference in this well, 65 years on, um, the difference in the spiritual temperature now uh as opposed to back then?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: But uh you grew up in in this kind of very sort of Christian dynasty, but what what were your sort of memories of I I guess you're going along to church uh Sunday by Sunday and and that kind of stuff?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: Did did the Jesus stuff stick with you as as a as a young boy?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: One of the most helpful expressions I've ever heard, which helps shape what I'm about to say, is that uh God doesn't have grandchildren, you know, and uh that uh the Christian faith is deeply personal.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: At the very core of it is relational uh and and an individual relationship uh with God.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's how Jesus describes eternal life, is relating to God in that way.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and you can't inherit it from your family, uh, and I didn't.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh now my I I think my exposure to Christianity is yeah, it was reasonably uh common in the sense that I was never an angry atheist or agnostic or uh anything like that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I never hated Christianity.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I had a positive experience of the Christian faith.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: My parents are genuine, Jesus-loving, um, lovely people, you know, and they loving Jesus shaped their parenting and their life in every way, in every respect, uh, and in a wonderful way, I've got to say, in a really positive way.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's not everyone's exposure to the Christian faith, but it was mine.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, for me, it just was probably a um it contained information that I believed was true but irrelevant.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, but I never had a decisive moment.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think I drifted, and probably wasn't until my late teens and my early 20s that I realized, oh, listen, I'll call myself a Christian, I'll still tick the box at the census, and I was in the army at that stage, my my dog tag said, you know, um Christian, but uh by you know, if by no respect in any way was I actually a believer, I didn't take it seriously or anything like that.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: But you're never a decisive moment, a drift away.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Very positive experience, though, and I've got to say I enjoyed um Christian company, I enjoyed churches, I went to youth events, I went, I did all the things, uh, but yeah, just a slow kind of drift.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: What was it like for you to make that realization and then I'll ask you to put yourself in the shoes of your parents as they they're kind of realizing the the drift that's happening?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: But what was was there a moment when you kind of thought to yourself, actually, I'm not sure the Christian label properly applies to me, or I I I I think I'm very far from home right now.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: I became a dad when I was in my late teens, so I um got a girl pregnant, uh, and that was a wonderfully fun conversation with my parents.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, every every Christian teenager who's gone through this will know you're not just saying, hey, we've got a baby, you're saying, hey, we've been having sex, you know, and that's that's even more scary in one respect.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was a prodigious liar, you know, and I was not terrified of my parents because they were scary, but I loved them and I didn't want to let them down.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had a big double life, triple life, probably.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so um I I I became a dad.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I ended up joining the army and I served in the Australian Army for 11 years uh as an infantry officer.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: But brother, by 21-22, I was divorced and living a very, very uh well, typical for a soldier, but pretty wild lifestyle, I suppose.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I suppose it was moments in there, little moments, snapshots, uh, when I'd think about spiritual things, getting shot at, that was a moment.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh you know, getting divorced, things like that, where I'd think about meaning and purpose, but I'd try and burrow it down and just not consider it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would have been too scared to say I'm not a Christian.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: When I say scared, I just mean it was uh I thought it was true.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I thought I thought Jesus died and rose from the dead.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: I thought all of that was and I would have been terrified to go, no, no, no, I because I it was a safety net in many respects, but um I you know I I think probably 25, 26, my life was so um ugly.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was such a uh horrible guy that there were moments there where I I would meet Christians in the army uh and I'd be like, uh I would never say, Oh, my family's I'd try and hide who I was, you know, because I I knew I wasn't.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: You have nothing to do with the Jensens, are you?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: I never knew him.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was a problem in the army, you've got name tags all the time, so it was really difficult to hide it.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but I remember once actually, you know, my dad was on a TV show called The Chaser.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember The Chaser in Australia?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, it was a satirical show where they'd go around, they'd mock people.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: It was a hilarious show.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but they did it to dad, they followed him around and mocked him, and he he looked quite foolish in this thing.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And my dad's not foolish, you know, he's a lovely, general, beautiful man.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and this guy in the army, uh, I hadn't seen it, but he brought a laptop over to me and he showed it to me laughing at my dad.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I responded violently to him, and I remember feeling like a great I had a pride and a defensiveness of my family and and my family's faith, but in no like I never read the Bible, I never prayed, I never went to church, I never um so there was no living, breathing, active faith that shaped my life in any respect, but I had a allegiance to it.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to think, you know.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't quite in many respects I I ended up living in Northern Ireland years later, uh, and I felt a gr a great association and attachment with the Northern Irish Protestant people, many of whom uh have got the name Protestant, Christian, but aren't believers, and I felt a strong association with that kind of thing.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you can be an atheist but a Protestant atheist, or a Catholic atheist, but a Protestant one or the other, but there's a religious identity that's not necessarily the same as a spiritual connection.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that that's the kind of the the dissonance or the the distance that you you were sort of experiencing yourself as you look back at how your parents were handling that and and their interactions with you.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: What are your reflections on that?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my my parents there was two sides to it.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: As a teenager, not great.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm the youngest, you know, and they're can you imagine youngest of five, and they're like, Really?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: This now?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and my eldest brother uh is 12 years older, and you know, um a frustratingly good guy.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's really annoying elder brother, and um, and all my siblings were like that, that was disgustingly pleasant.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I think that was a part of the lying thing.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So my parents didn't know how to respond, particularly when I was a teenager.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think there was a lot of kind of like uh maybe overstepping, like, oh no, uh emotional reaction.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: But by the time I'm in my 20s, flip over masterclass and had uh, I think love uh um and we'll use you know the Bible's well, the Bible doesn't use the word, but the word prodigal, um if the lost son story Jesus tells in Luke 15.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: My parents um they did something which I I now talk to a lot of parents about this kind of thing, brother, and um they loved me unconditionally.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they uh took a keen interest in my life.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: My dad, when I'd visit back home, you know, would go for a drink, like he doesn't drink alcohol, we'd go for a lemonade, you know, we'd watch the cricket or the footy, but he was deeply interested.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: They maintained the relationship and they didn't cower or compromise their faith.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like they said, Oh, we're not gonna say grace, or you know, if I was staying at their house, the expectation was I'd go to church with them.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like those were the things that would happen, but there was also the desire, um I knew there was the desire, uh, as we'd pray uh as I'd pray or as we'd talk, where they just nudged it, but um, you know, they were they were respectful of where I was at.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I I found that to be really, really helpful in retrospect.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, all of this was helped by the fact that my twin sister, I've got a twin sister um who did this type of evangelism that I call abusive evangel evangelism, uh, which was that she would we had a bantery relationship, you know, so she would give me like a Christian book.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, she'd give me like a present, a real present, like whatever, shoes for Christmas.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: But then a Christian book, and she'd write on the inside, you won't read this because you're an idiot.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: But you should read it, you idiot.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Love you, Anna.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of thing, you know.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and that over time, they so I think my parents knew they could rely on her just chipping away, chipping away, chipping away.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: They relied on the abuse from not a technique I I I say to others to use, but yeah, but listen, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And what were you making of it?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So so if you go back to your parents and they're saying, well, it's Sunday morning, you'll come to church with us, you're sitting in the pew.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: How are you experiencing church in in those years?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Just zoned out, completely bored.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um not bored though, like I hate this.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Just like, well, you know, I was you in the army, there's a there's a phrase which is hurry up and wait.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of waiting, you know.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it felt like school, if anything, not like maths, I hated maths, not like history, I loved history, but kind of like general studies geography in the middle.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know, this is nice.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: That it hit my uncle was the minister, you know, so I had to look like I was paying attention and that kind of stuff.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: He's a scary guy, so I wanted to make sure that I was that I was listening, but yeah, it just kind of rushed over the top.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus tells a parable, you know, it's the parable of the soils, of course.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um that first soil where just the seed doesn't it goes bing in out, you know.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: That was that was me.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've been all four soils actually.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but as an adult, it was just in and out, in and out.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: It just didn't register.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: So what happened then to turn you from that and the seed kind of plonks and and and bounces off the top, and and well, you've you've gone through the other soil type.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: The other soil types are interesting, aren't they?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's there's the the shallow reception of Jesus, and you're like you're you're joyful for a minute, but then persecution comes for being a Christian and you fall away.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the the thorns that choke you as the third soil type worry, wealth, the desires for other things.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can all kind of it sounds like modern life, doesn't it?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Worry.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh wealth, the desires for other things.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um but you you find yourself now as somebody who not only um has received the word, but somebody who you know scatters the scatters the seed to other people.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, what what were some some of the moments that kind of turned you from the the indifference to receiving Jesus?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, brother.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, yeah, those first two sores for me were my teenage years, you know.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think then I by the time I'm in my 20s, I got more callous, more callous.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what happened: nothing.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there was no explosion in my life, no lead up, no sort of um uh slow drift into thinking.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in fact, it was explosive.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I woke up one morning, uh, and I lived in Darwin at the time.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I don't know what the English equivalent is of Darwin, but I don't know if there is one.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sunderland, I don't know.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, somewhere somewhere some godforsaken place up north.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: You could still smoke inside McDonald's at the time.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was a wonderful era.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I woke up one morning, I was hung over, um, and I had a laptop computer my sister had given me, my twin sister, and she had preloaded, get this, she had preloaded YouTube videos of sermons on it, which I didn't know how to delete.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and and she knew I wouldn't know how to delete it.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: So every time I opened the computer, like a YouTube Christian video.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like autoplay?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was like autoplay.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was unbelievably horrible because I wanted to use the computer to look at other stuff, uh, the opposite spectrum, you know, and then I'm all the time, click, and and anyway, but one morning I wake up, hungover, September 2009, uh, and I watch.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: I open it up and I I watch um a sermon and then another one and another one.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny because I and this has actually shaped my evangelism in a huge way, Clint.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I heard nothing that day that was different to anything I'd heard one thousand times before breakfast every day of my life, you know, nothing.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't, you know, that the speakers were particularly brilliant or amazing or anything like this.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um but as I watched and listened, uh two things became really clear to me quite quickly.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: The first one was that uh God is real.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: I just had the sense that God is real, no, this is all real, I know this is real.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And secondly, that if that's true, uh I'm in big, big trouble.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because uh for me at that point in my life, I'm 28 years old, uh the things that I'd been up to were even in a a non-Christian secular uh worldview were horrible.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I was uh um an adulterer, um just uh violent, not a a very a liar, you know, uh just a scumbag, you know.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And um and there was I had this feeling that oh my goodness, one day I'm gonna stand before that God, and I'm stuffed.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm completely stuffed.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um oh my goodness.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I began to just I'm watching, I'm getting quite um agitated.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I call up a guy who's an army chaplain, or Padre we call them in the army, uh, he lives in Sydney, I was in Darwin, and I I just talked to him and he explained to me something which um flipped my entire world upside down, but again, nothing new, but uh I'd never got it.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: He took me to Romans chapter 5, 6 to 8, um, and he explains that, and in those verses it says this astonishing thing, um, which was he explained that my opinion and perspective of Christianity was not only wrong, it was the opposite of what it was.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: That I had somehow picked up somewhere that the way you get right with God is by being a good person, by doing good things, by you know, uh working your way into his favour.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Even though I've been brought up in this family, I still kind of thought that.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and he explained that no, no, Jesus died not because I'm a good person, he died because I'm not a good person, um, as the apostle Paul puts it, while we were sinners, Christ died for us.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had never got that.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, a little bit um after Romans, in fact, two books later, 2 Corinthians chapter 4, has this wonderful little section which says the God of this age has blinded the eyes of those who have believed that we cannot see.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when we become Christians, it's God, the God of this age is the devil, but the one true God, he opens blind eyes, you know.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it was honestly, it was that it was like, wait a minute, are you saying what I think you're saying?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that my sin has not disqualified me for God's kingdom, it qualified me for his grace, and that I could come.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I said, What do I do?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: What do I do?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: What do I do?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: What do I do?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, Pray.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I've prayed before, mate.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and he goes, Pray until you know you uh and I fell asleep on my knees, crying out to God in tears, uh, and I woke up um with the clearest certain knowledge that I was a Christian, uh, and as Jesus would put it, a born-again, a born-again Christian.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: That is fascinating.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what one thing that's fascinating is it wouldn't have mattered that you'd heard a thousand times plus that it's not about what you do that earns you the kingdom of God, that that Christ forgives sinners um rather than rewards righteous people.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: You you must have heard that thousands of times.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And yet doesn't it doesn't it show the blindness?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Big time, big time, brother.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, I I taught Sunday school, you know, as a like in your 10, you know, I'd help and so and I knew, I knew the Christian, I knew Ephesians 2, 8 and 8 to 10.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: I knew and this has guided me, shaped me so helpfully in evangelism because I know that 99% of the objections to the Christian faith are complete and utter ignorance, just and not in an insulting way, but there's a workspace righteousness.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and that's why, of course, as we know, every other religion, every other human philosophy uh is all based on this.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's that power of the gospel of of grace uh that is so explosively offensive, you know, and so powerfully, uh profoundly um significant to understand.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, yeah, but it is fascinating.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I wouldn't say encouraging, I hope, um, to you and anyone listening with long term um relationships with maybe children or spouses who you think, man, I've tried this, I've tried this, I've tried this, to say, don't give up.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Don't give up.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Please keep going, keep going.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: They haven't got it.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: You may think they've got it, they haven't.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: They haven't.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Keep going, keep going.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: And isn't that kind of the main message?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Of the parable of the soils, that there's there's only one kind of seed.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there's only plan A.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: There is no plan B, C, D, or it's it's just um you keep on sowing the seed, you keep on the the word of God doesn't change, but somehow hearts change because of the word of God.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, the other thing I'm encouraged by is the chaplain who yeah, who who like wants to bring scripture to bear in a in a quite direct way.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's think about Romans chapter five right now.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: That that belief in the power of the word of God and the power of of this sp specific word of God that can apply to your heart right now, Dave.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and so he was preaching scripture to you in a a particular scripture with with belief in the in the power of God, and you know, and telling you to pray.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it that's that's really stripping things back to basics, isn't it?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like you didn't like we shouldn't assume that people, oh yeah, I'm sure they know the gospel, it's just you know, their their life hasn't been transformed by it.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and your friend was like, well, no, probably Dave doesn't actually know the gospel, no matter how much he protests that he knows the gospel, he doesn't know the gospel.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: So getting it back to the gospel, getting it back to the word of God, getting it back to prayer, and then leaving you in God's hands, it's that's kind of that is plan A, and there is no plan B, right?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I just want to say, um, you know, the the reminder for me uh continually, not just that he's been forgiven much loves much, you know, that of my sin.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the worst bloke you've never met, you know, I'm just and that I'm forgiven.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Forget about it, it's crazy.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: But also that Romans 1.16, the power of the the gospel is the power of salvation.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: That actually the the the that doesn't mean there's not different angles upon which to present the gospel, but it's putt-putt golf.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: The analogy I now use training people in evangelism is put putt, or do you call do English people call it put putt?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, mini golf or yeah, mini golf, they probably call it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and it doesn't matter if you take one hit or 500, success is always the same, which is ball and hole.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, God does what he does when the ball's there, you know, but our job is very simple, uh, which is to hey, the gospel, the gospel, the gospel.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if they're not a Christian, it means they haven't understood the gospel.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're listening and you're not a Christian, I want to say um look into the message of Jesus afresh, uh, because I promise there's there's more to it than you think.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and for some people, you know, for me, it it it's funny because I tell my story sometimes, Glenn, and uh it sounds like a quick conversion, but of course it was there was 28 years of Christian witnesses, you know, like uh over and over and over again um throwing that seed.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the parable of the soils, sorry, I'm rapiding on, but um what do the first three have in common?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well they don't listen.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they they accept for a short, then they let but the fourth one, what makes the good soil good?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: They accept the word, they hear it and they accept it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then in the in the context of it, it's a welcoming word, yeah.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then Jesus says, let who has ears to hear, let him hear.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that he's continually saying, Hey, if you want to the way in is listening, the way on is listening, the way up is listening, you know, that we that we're guided and shaped by God's word.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And biblically speaking, there is no difference between the word for hear and obey, right?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like it in Hebrew the word Shema is the word hear, and it's the word obey, because yeah, the problem is if someone's not obeying the Lord, um, they haven't heard.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, what are you talking about?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: They haven't heard.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: They've been hearing the Torah read to them every every day.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, but they haven't heard, you know.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Which gives us encouragement as preachers, doesn't it?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, keep on preaching the word.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, spot on.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's 2009.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot's happened between 2009 and and now.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh how how long did you stay in the army?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and yeah, just catch us up on on how you got to where you are now.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I stayed in the army for three more years and became the most irritating Christian you could possibly imagine to everyone I ever met.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like your sister.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a s that's right.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, mate.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: She was.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I um I just I was captured immediately uh with the idea that hey, I've got to tell everyone I know about this.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is but also like, oh, how hard could this be?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Turns out the hardest thing in my entire life, incredibly difficult.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, I I just became a very enthusiastic evangelist.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: The the next really important step was I stayed in in Darwin for six months, but I didn't join a church.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I moved back to Sydney and joined a great church, uh, and joining a church just was um so significantly profound for me uh in grounding my faith and brothers and sisters coming along and urging me and pushing me on and on.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and also I began to see how much better it was to do evangelism with a church because on my own, with army guys, with footy guys, well, I'd read the Bible with them or I'd do these things, and um I had some fruit with that.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: But when I did it in the context of a church um full of people captured with the same things, I knew I could bring them uh talk still share, but bring them to a course or bring them to a Sunday or bring them to whatever, and I knew that that'd be spoken to by people, that they'd be welcome well, and so on and so forth.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: So after in three years of that, um I decided my pastor, um, an Englishman actually, uh, he said, Dave, you should think about evangelism, and I was like, as a job, you know, and he said, Yeah, and I said, Well, I might know a guy.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, surely I could, you know, get some family business.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, it turns out um that half of Sydney love my family, half of Sydney hate my family.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it depends which part it depends which one you call to get a job.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's gone both ways.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I ended up in school chaplaincy, um, working as a school chaplain at a school called King's, which is kind of like Sydney's Eton, kind of.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big posh boarding school.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and from there you got into church ministry.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that's been the last 15 years.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you're enjoying my interview with Dave Jensen.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: What we get onto in the second half of the interview is discussion about Christian courses and how invaluable they are in reaching out with the good news of Jesus.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: People really love a Christianity 101, and we've produced one here at Speak Life.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's called 321.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: You can check it out now at 321course.com.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just give us your email address, start an account, and you're in.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's completely free, we won't spam you, and we want to show you life according to Jesus in eight different sessions.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can binge the whole course in two hours, or you can take those eight sessions and be introduced to Jesus' vision for God, the world, and you.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's completely free, and we'd love you to both do it and then pass it on to others.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't you tap in 321course.com and check it out now?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: It could be a great tool for you to use in your evangelism.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, back to the interview.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: The heartbeat's always been evangelism.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I often think that uh the the way you come to faith is is very much it very much shapes the way you seek to have others come to faith.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Has that been your own experience?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and and if so, looking back on your own story, how do you think your own story shapes now your you know what is top of mind as you're sharing the gospel these days?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: I it certainly has shaped my um my not just my Christian experience, not as a pastor, just as a son of God, as a Christian, uh, that I am Well, in in several ways.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm burdened uh with a um a deep love for non-Christian people, and I think I I I don't know about you, brother, but I think that well, it's as close to a good description of the gifts of evangelism as we have, rather than uh um the articulation, because often the most gifted evangelists are what we would call in the army social hand grenades, you know, they just they could go either way, but one out of ten, they you know, and it could go either way.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but for me, I just um I'm not scared of non-Christians, I've never been scared of non-Christians.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Being in the army helped me with that, and um I I I had this moment where I drove past a nightclub on the way to church for six months, and I'd been to that nightclub a million times, you know, got uh maggot, got wasted it there and um fights and the rest of it.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I was so jealous driving to church looking at this queue of people.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I remember this moment around six months on where I drove past that queue, and that jealousy had been replaced with um and not in a patronizing way, I hope, but not not but pity and sympathy and empathy, thinking that's as good as life gets.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and there's so much more, and it's it's not this prosperity, kind of, oh, you're gonna be rich.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually a way of suffering, it's a way of great difficulty, the Christian faith, but um the richness and depth to it and um and joy and peace of knowing the one true God, knowing who you were made for, uh, has been so um amazing for me.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: So um, in many respects, I've been driven, I think, by a great uh love for non-Christians, um, a great empathy and compassion that I think comes from knowing what it is to be a that was 28 years of my life, is sort of being there and knowing that the the living water Jesus offers is replicated by a different type of water that the world offers, and it's toilet water, and and you don't think it is, but it is, and and it's it'll poison you, you know, over time.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so though those things have driven me.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: But the other part is um because the way I beg your pardon, because the way I was evangelized and became a Christian was through a very clear explanation of the gospel, of the death of resurrection of Jesus Christ, a call to repent and believe, and knowing that that was after a result of 28 years of me hearing it and just la la la la not getting it, uh that has just affirmed, and I've got to say, I I think I've it's been evidenced in my life now over 10 years of ministry, plus, to say, hey, um, I got one message uh and I'm gonna do it with compassion and nuance, and I'm gonna be a great listener and I'm gonna talk carefully.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: But put puck golf, I I know where I'm going all the time is to the death and resurrection of Jesus.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're not, if you haven't got that, you're not a Christian.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not a Christian, it's because you haven't got that.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because of my own personal experience, I think, has come into that place.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, evangelism has been something that's been big for me uh in that regard, and school chaplaincy was wonderful for that.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because in Australia, as you'd know, brother, in Sydney schools, Christian schools, 98% of those students were not Christian or non from non-Christian families, most of the staff weren't.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: But you have absolute license and freedom to preach the gospel and you know, um, do as much as you want for evangelism in Sydney Anglican schools, uh, and and you're dealing with kids who have more money in a week than you know, and that is the hardest soil often.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so that was a great sort of training ground for me, with a mix of the army guys and footy guys and that kind of stuff, but has spurred me on in that area.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Give us a flavor of what you want to bring in that setting.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, first of all, we'll we'll dump you amidst a bunch of teenagers, and maybe they've got more money than sense, or maybe they haven't, but let's just okay, teen you're you're in front of a whole bunch of teenagers, and then and then we'll ask you, you know, what what do you do on a Sunday morning kind of preaching to them?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: But how how do you seek as as a proclamation evangelist to to grab that audience?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, grabbing them um in one respect I want to offer is the same as it is with with anyone, which is um that if the very core compass setting of your heart is not driven by compassion and love, uh if it's self-serving, and I've certainly been uh been guilty of self-serving many, many times in ministry as well, uh, but if it's not driven by a deep love for um not just kids but adults, I just think uh people not only it's manipulative and people see through it, um, but it means uh that the very um the substance of your message is lost, it becomes this charlatan show.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so what that looks like, I I think is that hey, you've got different contexts.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: You've got the classroom, you've got a school chapel, you've got one-to-one, you've got small group, you've got a whole bunch of those things.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: But you you win people over in one-to-one and smaller settings, you win people over by knowing them and caring about them and investing in their lives, and um, you can't shortcut that.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same in church ministry, uh, that you it's people work, it's a good expression.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: People work.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's about people, uh, and you've got to love them.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, I and I think this is sanctification, isn't it?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: That we become like Jesus.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Not that we look like Jesus, but that we see like Jesus, that we are captured with the same realities that he is, and Jesus saw the crowds he had, compassion on them, the sheep without a shepherd.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that was a big part for me with the teenagers, because I did not like teenagers when I first I was a terrible school chaplain.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I found it, I found it so hard.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'd been in the army for 11 years, you just scream at everyone.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then I go into a classroom, I'm the school chaplain, or one of them, and I can't scream, you know, it's I don't want to.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, it's fine on generally, and um and I found it very humbling to have to be patronized and spoken down to and lectured and sort of abused a bit by students who thought they knew more about Christianity than I did, or whatever, whatever.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I failed at that, I think.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I've had to apologise to kids now, 10 years on, you know.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: But over time, realizing, no, no, um, when someone reacts, however they react to the gospel or to me as a Christian, I've got to stop reading that as a rejection of me personally, although it may be that, but um, I've got to instead see it as um the response of someone who Jesus says is um cut off from God, uh, the Apostle Paul says is dead in their transgressions and sins, um, and they're not the enemy, they're victims of the enemy, you know, and so uh not to be annoyed, not to respond with aggression, with aggression, but with compassion and love.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that was a big part, the the individual behind the scenes, but also to be driven by one clear principle, uh, which for me is they don't understand Christianity, they don't get it.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: They don't get it, and they think they get it, but they don't get it.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do I get them to consider, to reconsider the claims of Jesus Christ?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: What does Christianity say about life?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does Christianity say about your eternity?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what is Jesus' life about?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I do that in a way that can uh interact, provoke, all those sort of things?
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: So coming in in the classroom context, chapel context, those things are different, but the the thing is the same.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to think about Jesus.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to understand what he's done.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, reconsider Jesus because you've probably got things the wrong way around.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: You've you've the yeah, I mean the the flesh you know, the the biblical term for natural humanity is in opposition to the gospel.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: It and it and you can have a very worldly flesh that just tries to climb the ladder via experiences, but you could have a very kind of churchified religious flesh that just tries to climb the ladder via righteous deeds, and the gospel is just the the arrow coming down, and all of preaching is kind of subverting the flesh, it's kind of surprising and reorienting and turning right side up people's understanding of Christianity.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's so helpful to think.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: So so I stand in front of people and I think I am for you, I want to do you good, I love you, this is why I'm standing here, this is why you know I I want to bless you with this, and I'm gonna subvert your understanding because you you you do not understand Christianity right now, and and I'm gonna I'm gonna turn things right side up for you.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's yeah, that's right.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I I was really helped by a I remember a school chapel service where in King's uh there's a hall that fits the entire school, so a thousand students there.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I'd been in the army, but this is this was and I'm I enjoy public speaking, but this was scary my first time standing up there because school chapel services considered 90% not Christian, they're forced to go, this is hard up, man.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: I've now preached, you know, prisons, old folks' homes, well, prison and old folks' homes are the easiest places to preach, they can't get away.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: But school chapel, no one's interested, you know, they don't want you to be there, the staff don't want you to be there, they just want you to shut up.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I remember going up there my first time uh and speaking as clearly as I could on good people don't go to heaven.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that heaven is for bad people, like trying to provoke a little bit, disrupt agitation.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I had it in like font 9000 on this PowerPoint, good people don't go to heaven.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I stood at the door afterwards uh and I chatted to one or two of the kids that I coached in rugby.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I was like, Oh, what did you think?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that was great, Jennifer, that was good.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd say, Um, so what was the main message?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Good people go to heaven.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, Yeah, yeah, oh my no, no.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought, is that me?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: It could be me.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: This could be me.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but more likely, uh, that was me sitting in those pews, in those chairs, and it's just it's a spiritual battle.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is a spiritual battle, it's not you know, and and yeah, and realizing that means ah, I've got the same message, but I need to work harder at engaging people, uh, and I'm willing to do anything to engage with people, uh, and to to empathize and to read people properly, and to go, hey, um, okay, what uh I know what I think I think I know the Bible says what the blockage is.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's just spiritual blindness.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and what I need to therefore do is speak in such a way that they can clearly understand what I'm saying, uh, that that I can give them every chance of clearly understanding what I'm saying.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and that's that's driven me.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's what's also going on in 2 Corinthians 4 is um, you know, the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: So what what can people not see?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: The gospel.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the the good news of Jesus.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then he puts in verse 5, we preach Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake, which is beautifully um resonant with what you say about we are your servants as we get up and proclaim the gospel to you.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we want to do you good, but we proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know that guy who was crucified on the cross with his arms outstretched, bleeding, doesn't look like Lord.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Ah no, he is this is the surprise, surprising, subversive.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is what it looks like for the good news of God to come and meet us in our sin rather than for for good people to try and get better and climb up.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: So as we preach Jesus Christ as Lord, then God shines his light.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the the God who said, Let light shine out of darkness made his light to shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, again, there is no plan B.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing we're offered is well, preach Jesus Christ as Lord and serve them as you do it.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and the miracle, the miracle happens, you know.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and and over time, brother, I mean, amen.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to say that over time I think um so Romans 1, uh in the presuppositional truth world.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now I I don't do the presuppositional apologetic, like by what standard?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: By what standard?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: By what I just think that's mad at me.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh but and provocative, needlessly provocative, just crazy.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I I yeah I like presuppositional evangelism, yeah, which is confident God-centered evangelism, which is to say, uh, I think the Bible has taught me, and I never tell I never would say this to someone, but well, sometimes I have, but if I know them well enough, but would go, um they know the truth.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's there, it's there, and that this gospel skeleton key is what God uses to unlock the suppressed truth.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's not just a truth about a God, but the Christian God.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is why, yeah, and and I've just I've I've seen that in personal one-to-one evangelism, but also in uh group uh course evangelism that actually just it's that's how I'm sure, of course, we have brother to say um some ministers' kids, or even whatever, um you can tell them a hundred times they don't get it, but sometimes you get people, and it's not an ethnic thing, it's not uh um age thing, but they just it clicks.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's such an evident work of God unlocking the suppressed truth within them, and um yeah, I I I think that helps me be confident.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Also, Matthew 28, that Jesus is with us to the end of the age.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesus is the evangelist, he's here with us, um and and so hey, we can just go ahead, keep hammering around hammer hammering away with love and compassion and sow the seed, sow the seed, so the seed.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you know, and and if someone's if someone's closed right now, if someone is the sort of the the the soil type where the bird pecks it away, Jesus doesn't actually say like now build a scarecrow or you know buy a BB gun or you know, and with the with the thorns, he doesn't say get out the secateurs, cut it like it's just sow the seed.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're not ready quite yet, okay, put a pin and and circle back to them, you know, in in a few months' time they might be ready to hear it again.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: But there is good soil out there.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think one of the things about evangelists and those those who are really called to the task of evangelism is that they they don't batter down doors, they scatter seed.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I think I I notice within my flesh, if if someone is resistant to the gospel, or i if they have intellectual objections to the gospel, or if they sneer at how they feel that the gospel is is not sufficiently, you know, intellectual enough, I want to hang around and have a fight, right?
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to, you know, I want to prove, I want to wipe that sneer off the face, and I'm I wanna I want to show them that this is intellectually credible and all that kind of stuff.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm always rebuked by the Apostle Paul at the end at the end of preaching in Athens, right?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: At the heart of you know, this is ground.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Zero for Western philosophy.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: And there are a bunch of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers, and they're sneering at him at the end of his talk.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul's like, Oh, there's a couple of believers here.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: We can start a church with that.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: You guys get going.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it says Paul left.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I I would want to set up Areopagus ministries right there in the heart of Athens and prove the intellectual credibility of the gospel.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: But he he knows enough about being an evangelist that you sow the seed and you move.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: And he's off to Corinth.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes and preaches the gospel there.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: And there'll be sneerers there, but sneerers gonna sneer.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: So you you know, you you just it's just that it's just that plan A thing the whole time, isn't it?
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's reading reality with the lenses that the word gives us, and knowing, hey, if I read life my way with my perspective, I can depend on one thing.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm normally wrong.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and certainly spiritually speaking, and that's this is why revelation of God's word is so important that we are given the perspective of God.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: But but I think as you've just hit on, you know, that even isn't it so it's the I'll give an illustration.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: On Sunday, I preached at a church that I used to work at a few years ago.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've been away and I haven't been back for five years.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: Come back, new church plant started, and I walk in, and there's there's some people I'd seen become Christians five years ago.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: It was incredibly overwhelming.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: But then there was one or two other people there who I remember, they were siblings or whatever, who'd come into the sphere of church completely disinterested and now on fire, born again Christians.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and just to go, hey, um, it's the patience to not batterand doors, uh, but uh, okay, Paul and Paul and Asia, you know, to not, okay, the Holy Spirit shut the door there, okay?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that doesn't mean I'm giving up.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm prayer is the most I can do.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sometimes as well, though, when the person wants to fight, we can flee too quickly.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I don't think I do or you do, baby, but but others can go, oh, well, I'm never gonna say anything again.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I think we want to say to brothers and sisters in that phase to go, hey, hey, you know, keep praying, keep praying, and then just keep putting the flag up of Jesus as much as possible.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and God will open doors of conversations if He if He wants to open the doors of conversations.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, my parents' model of that to me was excellent, of just of not compromising.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, loving, being very considerate, but hey, we're Christians.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: So public, we're living public Christian lives.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna keep doing that uh in the face of rejection.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: Let's think about the place of the church.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you you mentioned earlier on in the interview about you know, it's it's one thing to be an individual evangelist in the army, and you know, you're you're the one Christian that that you know the soldiers know.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very different thing, actually, as a member of this big evangelistic team called church.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um how how can churches um well how well first of all, let's let's think about evangelists, because evangelists, the temperamental kind of evangelist with a capital E usually thinks of themselves as a lone ranger.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they they they walk away from church out into the world because the the church is moribund and it's not doing what it should be doing, and so I'm the evangelist, I'm gonna go out there as a lone ranger and and and do that kind of thing.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: What what different mentality does the evangelist need to have?
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then we'll think about what kind of mentality the church needs to have.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: But but first of all, address the lone ranger evangelist for us.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, I think to say God bless you, don't stop, keep going, keep going, keep going.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we need as many evangelists as we can.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I I want to offer that uh for all of us as evangelists, the end state that we're aiming for with the evangelistic endeavor must always be the church.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: That the church is the the the launching pad and the entry, you know, the exit the the landing zone of evangelism.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we want to bring new Christians or not yet Christians into the sphere of church for two significant reasons.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one uh theological, one pragmatic.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: The theological one is that uh Titus II, you know, Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead to save us from our sins, but also to purify for himself a people.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and that Ephesians, you know, one, two, and three, that we're called, we're chosen, we're brought in.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we are the physical representation of the heavenly realities, that when we gather, uh God's glory is most displayed to that with a trophy cabinet of God, that the church is God's intention of humanity, that this is where God's glory is displayed.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we need Christians to be in church for their benefit, for their sanct, you know, for their good.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we need them for our good, but also that God is glorified when that happens.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to be driven towards those ends theologically.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I think um just on a pragmatic level, um Christians need church.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very difficult to live uh as a as a Christian without a church family, and I think um the church family is where we most flourish uh within our faith.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it hits on the three principles that you see, I think, evangelistically throughout the New Testament, but also through 2,000 years.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, context always changes, uh, but in almost every evangelistic endeavour, almost every, in fact, uh maybe every, in the New Testament, the three things that are always present are the word, people, and time.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: Word, people, time.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now the time one, you know, Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, but who knows what.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: But really, beyond that, what we've got here is uh you look at whether that's a Billy Graham crusade, whether that's online, whether that's a course, whether that's what we really want is we want people to sit under the word in the presence of people.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: We want Christians intermingling with non-Christians.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's wonderful for non-Christians to do that because Christians are the best.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: I love Christians, I want my friends to meet Christians.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and over time, so people have time to not only um investigate the faith as a non-Christian, but also to um to be digging roots deeply.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then you so I want to offer that hey, the church, go do your thing as an evangelist, but we're better together, and so one step of this evangelistic endeavor you m must be bringing this these people into the life of church.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and if you don't think the church you go to um can do that properly, then change church.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't you know, then I just want to say, hey, the church should be ready, and and we'll speak to churches in a moment, of course.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think church is something that is essential.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's great.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's from the evangelists.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: So evangelists are to uh do all things in in connection with the church and for the church.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um now let's think about the church as the evangelistic body that it is.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: We are the priesthood, as uh 1 Peter 2 calls us, and a priest is a go-between, go between God and the people and the people and God, and so we are constitutionally a missionary body.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how can local churches uh better evidence their true nature as as a missionary body?
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: The first uh step is repentance and lament uh and even if we think we're doing well, um we're not doing nearly well enough.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we wanna humble ourselves continually before our great God and beg his forgiveness uh for where our selfishness as Christians and as a church, and I'm just speaking from Sydney, not you know, just I and not even denominationally, I just want to say that um humans, uh churches, humans, this is Ephesians is so beautifully in chapter four.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: I've just preached on it, so it's right in the top of my mind to think about uh as Paul speaks to individuals and that we are built up individually into the body collectively, you know, that there's this thing that happens.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we're uh we're like rubber bands, we require stretching continually.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I and I want to uh in order to be um growing, you know, to becoming more and more like Jesus.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that for most churches, uh the um the the release of the stretching of any tension in evangelism means we revert back to kind of just thinking about ourselves continually over and over and over again.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so I think we always need to repent and and turn from times when our selfishness or our uh self-servedness has has prevented caring for the lost.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would offer um the next step uh is humility.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: And here's what I've um I think has been the most significant thing for me as an evangelism minister uh is waking up one day and realizing I don't know what I'm doing.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can't work this out, I can't vibe it, you know.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, it's like uh Glenn, I know we like cricket, you know.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um evangelism is not off spin, it's leg spin.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now that will only work for 2% of people, maybe, but you and me, we're we're there.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, that's right, but it's not something you can just pick up and do.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when I say in a church context, us partnered together.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that requires careful, considered thought, um, wisdom, wisdom from others, you know, uh, and uh seeking desperately to understand how other people are doing it well and learning.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um, as I've observed over the last 10-12 years, um, churches who are seeing people converted, one of the key patterns, the key pattern is that the the leader, the senior pastor, the rector, whoever, um is a person of deep love for the lost.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: They give a damn about the damned, but humility to say, I want to I want to do better.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's a moment at the end of Schindler's list, um, where Oscar, you know, Liam Neeson's character, Oscar Schindler, he he's you know, he's it's all over, you know.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and he looks at his jewellery, his gold watch and his gold ring, he goes, I could have sold this, I I could have given this, I could have saved ten, that's ten people, I could have and and the man, uh the right-hand man's like, no, no, no, no.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I I just want to get to the end of my days and I don't want to be pulling off rings going, I could have done that, I could have done that, but I want to instead I did, and and I'm not saying that means, and listen, there's a whole bunch of dangers about prioritizing evangelism uh that we always need to be aware of, but that shouldn't stop us endlessly pursuing it.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the humility to acknowledge I don't know what I'm doing, I want to learn from people who do know what they're doing, so that we can see people become Christians, that's essential.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's essential because you won't vibe it.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: So as we as we wrap up, can you can you give some sense of, you know, you're in a privileged position of being able to sort of look at a whole bunch of different churches and and some of them um uh proving quite fruitful in the ways that they're reaching out in their own kind of contexts.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know you're coming over to the UK in uh October and you're gonna be uh speaking in London and Glasgow and perhaps um somewhere else.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Edinburgh.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and so you'll be speaking at the the evangelist conference there and you'll be speaking on Sundays.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um people ought to get along to that.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: We'll put some links in in the description about that.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: But as as you're going around churches, um where where is fruit happening?
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: And can you put your finger on any kind of common denominators?
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, the great news, of course, is that God has not stopped saving people.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um people become Christians in Australia every day, people become Christians in England every day, even in Anglican churches.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: Crazy.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: But it does happen, you know.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so there's wonderful hope and confidence that uh we need to understand.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: So um I don't think soil, one of the common things that we can think of is the soil's too hard.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think we want to say the soil is hard, but it's not cement.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, people are becoming Christians, and we do see churches, London, Sydney, um uh wherever, uh, you know, where we see lots of people becoming Christians.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: So why is that happening?
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and and and what are they doing?
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, here's over the last 12 years I've really dedicated myself to stealing good ideas, uh, and um there's there's really well you've got the pattern of the senior leader who's always there, but here's what most the churches who are seeing the fruit uh of people becoming Christians, uh, they're doing well three things, and I'll say them very quickly.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, um, they've developed a very clear uh pathway.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in other words, they think very carefully about how they engage with non-Christians uh and how they hope to see them become Christians.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: And in 99% of cases, that happens in the context of an evangelistic course like 321 or Christian Explored, um, you know, that uh an evangelistic course that doesn't end after five weeks, but actually that's the beginning that actually has a follow-up.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that I've that we've seen around the place in Australia, very, very uh astonishing, actually, fascinating, is that yes, culture is further back than it's ever been, but that doesn't mean we need to start further back.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: It means we need to go further on.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that we actually need to, as we get people, we gospel them.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: Apostle Paul, as he you know, uh Acts 15, so he goes, he he goes, he gospels, then he stays, he returns.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that we gospel in the context of deep relationship, um, that courses don't eradicate relationship, they benefit, they depend on relationships.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that we encourage people to bring people to things.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we've given great thought to how we present the gospel there, but it doesn't end actually, then that turns into, for example, uh, you know, just say you run 321, and then after that you've got Christian Explored and after the Hope Explored, or it runs into a small Bible study where you study the Gospel of Mark for six months, or you do the word one-to-one, but as the word one to ten, you know, whatever it is.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you've given great thought to that, uh, a pathway.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: The second way is to engage Christians in this because it's a team sport, we're better together, and the way that we do that is not by depending on every Christian being able to um do two ways to live or be able to um use an evangelist, like lead someone to Christ themselves.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: We want them to do that, but if we depend on that, we'll be waiting until glory to reach their contacts.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: The people most likely to become Christians are people who know Christians.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to make sure how do we get our Christians engaged?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what they've done, churches that see fruit, is they lower the bar of evangelistic activity whilst maintaining its sharpness.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's still not pre-evangelism, it's proper evangelism, the gospel's proclaimed.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: But they they keep it sharp but relationally warm, an evangelist, of course.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then they have uh a church which has evangelistic heat, mission heat, and that comes from the pulpit.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean preaching an evangelistic sermon every week, it just means setting the compass of the church to eternity.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: And just in everything that we do that we're focused on, as you said, you know, the gr the mission of God, the gospel of God, um, and the overflow of that for Christians and non-Christians in every area of their life.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: So what you see fascinatingly is it's not a white thing or a black thing, um, it's not a rich or a poor.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's actually very simple.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's in fact, it's doing less, better.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: Getting rid of a lot of the busyness, but just doing something very simply, very well, over and over and over again.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um churches in places that would be very surprising, uh, do this sort of stuff and see uh tens and tens of people become Christians just in those churches alone every year for 10, 20, 30 years.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that is so exciting.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I'm gonna be talking about at the conference.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that's a good teaser.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very long teaser.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'll teach you how to do it.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I will I will be there on the on the 16th of October, just sitting and taking notes and and um yeah, looking to looking to drink it in.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um so 16th of October.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're in Scotland before the 16th, is that right?
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm on Scotland in on the 11th.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: So Edinburgh, I'm just doing Edinburgh and London.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: So um I'm just gonna double check those dates just as we're attending.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the 11th, I'm at Charlotte Chapel in uh Edinburgh.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm preaching at Charlotte Chapel and the Tron Church on in Scotland on the Sunday, uh, and then in London uh at St Helens, I think the conference is at Bishopsgate, yeah um on the whatever date you said it was, the 16th.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's right, yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: There'll be a there'll be a flashing kind of uh text over the screen right now as my editor Thomas for the correct speech.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: It is the 16th.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's fantastic.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I'd I'd love I'd love to uh see anyone there and uh and oh, can I say uh in Australia, as you know, Glenn, um we're Anglophiles and we've uh uh nearly everything I've learned is from Englishmen uh and and even the odd Scott, uh not Northern Irish people, but English and Scottish people.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: So um I can't wait.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: That'll be great.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: And if people want to catch up with some of your stuff and and learn more, they might they might not be able to make it uh in October, but uh if they want to go further with some of this stuff, how can they keep up with you, Dave?
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I've got a uh there's a podcast um that I run called Fire Up.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's just me and two mates here in Sydney just talking about evangelism uh and just you know chewing chewing the fat, as we'd say.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so fire up um is there.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um the the other way is the organization I work for is called ENC.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so if you looked up encministries.org.au, um there's a whole bunch of sort of um other resources that I have there.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, that's the best way.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: We'll make sure that those uh notes are in the info box.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: But uh Dave Jensen, thank you so much for joining us, and I look forward to seeing you next month.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: Good on you, brother.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: See ya.