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Navigating Change: Archbishop Shane Parker on the Future of the Anglican Church · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:12
church in the 21st century. At the Future
0:15
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
0:19
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
0:21
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
0:24
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
0:28
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
0:30
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
0:34
challenge, inspire and equip you with the tools
0:37
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
0:39
little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Martha Tatarnic welcomes the Most Reverend Shane
0:50
Parker, Primate of the Anglican Church of Canada.
0:55
Archbishop Shane Parker was elected the 15th
0:57
Primate of the Anglican Church of Canada in June
1:00
of 2025 and installed at St Paul's Cathedral,
1:05
London, Ontario. Prior to being elected, he had
1:08
served as Bishop of the Anglican Diocese of Ottawa
1:11
since 2020 and before that he was Dean of Diocese
1:14
of Ottawa and Rector of Christchurch Cathedral for
1:17
two decades. Born to Irish parents in Edmonton,
1:20
Alberta, he grew up in Western Canada. He worked
1:24
as a laborer for several years before embarking on
1:26
undergraduate and graduate studies in sociology at
1:29
UH Carleton University. After working sociologist,
1:33
he studied theology at St. Paul University and was
1:36
ordained as a priest in 1987 in the diocese of
1:40
Ottawa, later serving as a Diocesan Archdeacon.
1:44
Archbishop Parker has an honorary doctorate from
1:47
St. Paul University where he served as a part time
1:49
professor of Pastoral Ministry and chairs its
1:53
Anglican Studies Advisory Committee. A collection
1:56
of his pastoral essays was published by Novalis in
2:00
a book called called Answering the Big Questions.
2:02
He's a recipient of the Interfaith Ottawa Award
2:05
for Devoted Service to Promoting Interfaith
2:07
Dialogue and Cooperation. Archbishop Parker is
2:11
married to Catherine Shadbolt, a lawyer
2:13
specializing in family law and mediation. He has
2:16
three adult children and three grandchildren. He
2:19
is handy, enjoys physical work, and is most
2:21
comfortable in natural places. A uh, reminder
2:25
before we start today's conversation, please take
2:27
a moment to subscribe to the podcast or leave a
2:30
review and share Future Christian with a friend.
2:32
You can connect with Loren, Martha and Future
2:35
Christian on Instagram. You can send us an
2:37
email@laurensonatemediapro.com and find us on
2:41
substack@futurechristian podcast. We appreciate
2:45
your voice and how we faithfully discern the
2:47
future of the church.
2:59
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your
3:02
host for today, Martha Tatarnic, and today I am,
3:07
um, very happy to be having a conversation with
3:10
Archbishop Shane Parker, who is the Presiding
3:14
Bishop or the Primate of the Anglican Church of
3:17
Canada. Welcome Archbishop. Thank you for making
3:21
time to be with us on Future Christian Today.
3:23
>> Shane Parker: Thank you, Martha. Good to be here.
3:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: So we are going to just start with a couple of
3:29
opening questions to help our listeners get to
3:32
know you a little bit. These are questions that we
3:34
ask all of our guests. And, uh, the first thing
3:38
that would be great to know is a little bit about
3:41
the faith context in which you were raised.
3:44
>> Shane Parker: Okay. So I'm the child of Irish immigrants, uh,
3:48
who are very much a part of the Church of Ireland
3:50
tradition, which is the Anglican Church in
3:53
Ireland. And, um, my father joined the Canadian
3:57
military and we moved around a lot. And church was
4:00
the one constant as I was growing up. We were
4:02
always a member of an Anglican parish from my
4:06
earliest memories. So I'm very much a, ah, cradle
4:09
Anglican, but not necessarily a cradle Canadian
4:12
Anglican because there is that strong influence
4:14
from the Church of Ireland.
4:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, all right, that's really interesting. Um,
4:19
so, you know, just in broad brushstrokes, how has,
4:24
uh, being a Christian changed for you from then
4:29
until now? Would there be just a couple of things
4:33
that you would note?
4:35
>> Shane Parker: Well, I think the major change would be the place
4:39
of Christianity within Canadian society, the place
4:42
of, uh, the Anglican Church in Canadian society,
4:46
uh, the place of confessed religious faith. When I
4:49
was a child living on the prairies, we would begin
4:52
the day and assembly with Christian hymns. I
4:55
remember an inventory being taken of everyone's
4:58
church, uh, affiliation. And, uh, apart from very,
5:02
very few people, everyone could identify where
5:04
they were from. And now, of course, that's just
5:07
not, uh, part of most people's, um, DNA, most
5:11
people's identity. Certainly not something that's
5:13
called upon or recognized as being significant and
5:18
important in our society at this time. So that's a
5:21
major change.
5:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that certainly is a major change. And I
5:24
think that will be very much connected to some of
5:26
the conversation that we're going to drill into a
5:29
little bit more deeply here as we go along. Um,
5:33
and certainly as we set the stage for what
5:35
actually your role is in the Anglican Church and,
5:39
uh, how you got into that role. So if our
5:42
listeners are chomping at the bit to find out a
5:45
little bit more about who you are and, uh, what
5:49
you are, uh, doing and leading, don't worry, we're
5:53
going to get to that.
5:54
Uh, just one more opening question. Is there, um,
5:58
a spiritual practice that you're finding
5:59
particularly meaningful now? And you know, again,
6:03
just for our listeners, um, this is a brand new
6:07
role for you. And so it's a time of pretty big
6:10
transition in your life. Personally, I wonder if
6:13
there is a faith practice that you're finding kind
6:17
of grounding in this time of transition.
6:20
>> Shane Parker: Um, so a few short months ago I was the bishop of
6:23
the Anakin Diocese of Ottawa, completely connected
6:26
to a community in a different parish every week
6:29
and part of um, a, ah, church I'd belonged to for
6:32
many, many years. And now I am not the bishop of a
6:37
diocese. I am living in downtown Toronto for the
6:40
time being. And I found that the personal prayer
6:43
disciplines are what I've turned to in the absence
6:46
of being part of a fixed liturgical community of
6:49
any kind. Um, I'm the kind of, um. I wouldn't want
6:54
to overstate the notion of praying without
6:57
ceasing, but I'm very conscious and aware of uh,
7:02
the Creator of Creation being around me, within
7:05
me. And um, my personal prayer disciplines, you
7:09
know, the morning and evening prayers as well as a
7:12
conversation with God throughout the day, have
7:15
really become my discipline at this time until I
7:18
find a new rhythm of what it means to be in a
7:21
sense outside of a liturgical community that
7:25
gathers regularly.
7:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think, um, that's really interesting.
7:30
There's so many of the guests that we have on this
7:32
podcast that um, name the daily office as a really
7:38
important spiritual practice and guests from a
7:43
variety of different denominations and traditions.
7:46
But so often that is part of what gets named is
7:50
that sense of being able to be part of a community
7:53
even when you're by yourself or, um, not with a
7:58
physical gathering.
7:59
>> Shane Parker: Something I'm very, very conscious of are the
8:02
prayers of the church. I'm aware that I am being
8:05
prayed for because of my role and so on. And um,
8:09
sometimes it's almost like a physical sense of
8:12
being supported by that. And sometimes I just let
8:15
myself lean into that in a quiet kind of way, just
8:19
knowing when I can't pray, I'm being prayed for.
8:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's really beautiful. Thank you.
8:25
Okay, so we are going to just spend a little bit
8:29
of time setting a bit of a roadmap of uh, how you
8:33
got from A to B into this new role as primate or
8:37
Presiding Bishop of the Anglican Church of Canada.
8:40
Um, this is for the benefit of our non Anglican
8:44
listeners, but as, uh, I was saying to you just
8:48
before we pressed record on the podcast, it's also
8:50
for lots of our Anglican listeners because, um,
8:54
the nitty gritty of how uh, the Anglican Church is
8:57
actually structured is not always foremost on
9:01
people's minds or, uh, you know, just in, in their
9:07
easily accessible, um, knowledge bank. So if you
9:12
could just uh, start by telling us a little bit
9:17
about when and where you were ordained, um, where
9:21
you have served and when you were elected bishop,
9:26
what that part of your journey looked like.
9:29
>> Shane Parker: So I was ordained, uh, into the Anglican Church as
9:33
a priest in 1987 in the diocese of Ottawa. And I
9:39
served as a parish priest, uh, for many years,
9:43
until 1995, when I became the diocesan archdeacon
9:49
that, uh, sort of the assistant to the bishop,
9:51
basically, like an executive assistant to the
9:53
bishop, you might say. And I served in that role
9:56
for four years and then was appointed as the dean
10:00
of Christchurch Cathedral in Ottawa. Uh, that's
10:03
the cathedral where royal, uh, commemorative
10:06
services are held and other things. It's well
10:08
known to, uh, many Canadians. And I served in
10:12
that, um, job until 2020. So I was just over 20
10:18
years as the dean of Christchurch Cathedral in
10:21
Ottawa, and I was elected as bishop of the Anakin
10:25
Diocese of Ottawa on March 14, 2020, quite
10:29
literally the day before the world shut down.
10:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh, it sure was.
10:34
>> Shane Parker: Yeah. And served in that role for almost exactly
10:37
five years until General Synod, which is the
10:42
national assembly or the primary governing body of
10:46
the Anglican Church of Canada, convened in London,
10:49
Ontario in June. And at that time I was elected to
10:54
serve as primate. It was not something I had
10:58
sought in any way. I was not on the ballot. But
11:02
there was a request for more names during the
11:04
meeting. Uh, the General Synod has the right to
11:07
ask for more names if, for whatever reason. And I
11:11
found myself very quickly nominated and very
11:14
quickly elected to serve in this role.
11:18
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, so I do want to circle back to that piece in
11:22
a moment, but just before we do, because I think
11:26
that that discernment piece could be really
11:28
interesting for our listeners.
11:31
But before we get to that, let's just flesh out a
11:34
bit for people, um, what the role of the primate
11:39
actually is in the Anglican Church of Canada. I
11:41
think there can be a lot of misunderstanding
11:44
about, um, what your role, authority you do have,
11:49
what authority you don't have. Um, yeah, if you
11:53
can just kind of give us a brief job description.
11:57
>> Shane Parker: So the word primate comes from the phrase primus
12:00
inter pares, which means first among equals. So
12:05
the primate is first among equals amongst the
12:08
bishops of the Anglican Church of Canada. Uh,
12:12
that's why I hold the title Archbishop. Um, as the
12:17
primate, there are two spheres of authority. You
12:22
might say one sphere relates to the not for profit
12:26
organization called the National Office of the
12:29
General Synod of the Anglican Church of Canada.
12:31
And in that sphere, I basically function as the
12:34
chief executive officer. So I am principally
12:37
responsible as the CEO for the organization of the
12:42
national, uh, Office of the Anglican Church of
12:44
Canada. The second sphere is as the senior
12:49
metropolitan or senior archbishop of the Anglican
12:52
Church of Canada. And that has two dimensions to
12:56
it. On the one hand, I am the spiritual, um, head
13:01
of the Anglican Church of Canada. I can speak for
13:05
the Anglican Church of Canada, and I bring the
13:08
Anglican Church of Canada to, to really wherever I
13:12
am in a sense. And part of that would be in civic
13:15
contexts. Part of it would be ecumenical or
13:17
interfaith. But a good part of it would be within
13:20
the Anglican Communion, the worldwide Anglican
13:23
Church, which is about 85 million people. So as
13:26
primate, I'm a member of a, ah, body called the
13:31
Primates Meeting, which is one of the instruments
13:34
of communion within the Anakin Church. The
13:36
primates from across the world gathered together,
13:39
bringing their provinces, as they're called. And
13:44
uh, we have bonds of affection and relationships
13:48
that enable the Anglican Communion to, you know,
13:50
to hold together, to be in relationship within
13:54
Canada. My authority as an archbishop is quite
14:00
limited. A lot of people don't understand that,
14:03
um, the Anglican Church of Canada, I believe, is
14:07
the only jurisdiction where the primate does not
14:10
have direct authority over bishops. That
14:13
authority, that direct authority rests with the
14:15
four metropolitans or archbishop of the four
14:20
internal provinces of the Anglican Church of
14:22
Canada. So when the primate shows up for a
14:26
consecration of a bishop, uh, the primate does not
14:31
take the role of the chief consecrator. The
14:33
metropolitan does. Because the metropolitan has
14:36
direct authority over those bishops. The primate
14:40
would have influence, moral influence. And our
14:43
rules are such that if there is a, um, matter of
14:47
discipline that is appealed beyond the um,
14:52
metropolitans, then the primate presides at the
14:55
Supreme Court of the Anglican Church of Canada. So
14:59
the primate has what we might call moral
15:01
influence, spiritual influence in terms of
15:03
authority over bishops and dioceses, um, but does
15:08
not have direct, um, supervisory legal authority
15:14
over the, um, dioceses of each of the internal
15:19
provinces that rests with the metropolitan. So
15:22
that's a little bit confusing for people. Um,
15:25
people often think that the primate can go and you
15:28
know, discipline within a diocese or whatever. In
15:31
fact, that's not the case. It would be a little
15:33
bit like the justice of the Supreme Court not
15:36
being, you know, being prohibited from exercising
15:40
their role within, uh, provincial Superior Court,
15:43
for example. You know, our rules are what they
15:45
are. Um, so the primate, uh, as the senior
15:50
metropolitan in Canada is a symbol of unity. The
15:55
primate has a direct, uh, role in being a pastor
15:59
to the bishops of the Anglican Church of Canada
16:03
and uh, exercises that role and other roles to
16:08
promote unity, to draw the church together. Uh,
16:11
the primate presides at um Meetings of General
16:15
Synod and the Council of General Synod and so on.
16:18
So it's not quite an honorary role, but it would
16:23
be, you know, more like the Governor General than
16:25
the Prime Minister, to use a Canadian, uh,
16:28
political context.
16:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, I think that's helpful. I think that, um,
16:34
you know, it's uh, even for people in my
16:38
congregation, um, or in our Anglican congregation
16:42
sort of understanding that, um, in terms of like
16:47
oversight and authority, our diocesan bishop has a
16:53
great deal of, um, local authority, um, whereas
17:00
you don't really. Not in the way, I think that
17:03
people sometimes assume.
17:05
>> Shane Parker: Not the way people would understand it. It's not
17:07
the same as a diocesan bishop in that sense. A
17:11
diocesan bishop is, uh, she or he would have
17:14
direct authority over their priests, can authorize
17:17
things, can discipline and so on. Um, it's not as
17:22
clear cut that way.
17:23
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
17:24
Okay, so let's circle back to this summer when,
17:28
uh, you were elected the Primate of the Anglican
17:32
Church of Canada. And you know, you talk about
17:35
everything happening in kind of quick succession
17:38
that you were not on the ballot, um, but then more
17:41
names were asked for and then you were on the
17:44
ballot and then you were elected. Um, but let's
17:50
kind of widen that lens a little bit because, uh,
17:54
you have talked in interviews about having uh,
17:59
some kind of inkling, um, going into General Synod
18:03
that uh, I know that there's kind of a piece
18:06
around whether or not you were going to pack your
18:11
mitre, um, which uh, was sort of related to that,
18:18
um, maybe just uh, some kind of sense that uh,
18:23
this could be on the table. Can you just talk a
18:28
little bit about the discernment process? Like,
18:31
um, what did that look like for you?
18:34
>> Shane Parker: Sure. So I think it's important for people to
18:36
realize when there's an Episcopal election,
18:39
whether it's for a primate or a diocesan bishop,
18:41
people are called to be candidates. They're not
18:44
called to be a bishop. They're called to consider
18:47
whether they would let their name stand. And to do
18:50
that would mean that they'd be prepared. If called
18:53
by the Church in the power of the Holy Spirit to
18:55
serve, they would be ready to stand. So there is a
18:59
point of discernment with respect to whether or
19:01
not to allow yourself to serve as a candidate, to
19:05
allow your name to be on the ballot. And when the
19:10
primacy became vacant, uh, there was a process in
19:15
place. It's very clear how it works. The
19:18
nominations, um, need to be received by the, um,
19:23
acting Primate or the General Secretary and it's
19:27
the House of Bishops who nominates people. Okay.
19:31
So in The Anglican Church, the General Synod has
19:34
three the Order of Bishops, the Order of Clergy,
19:37
and the Order of Laity. The Order of Bishops
19:40
provide a list of names and those of nominees, and
19:45
those nominees are then voted on by the Order of
19:48
Clergy and Laity. So bishops themselves do not
19:51
vote for the Primate. They simply provide the list
19:54
of nominations. And so at the April meeting of the
19:59
House of Bishops, uh, that is where the list of
20:04
nominees would be prepared. Um, so I had been
20:09
approached by many people from different parts of
20:14
the country, unrelated to one another, um,
20:17
starting last fall, essentially when it became
20:20
clear this was happening, uh, overtures happened,
20:24
looking for expressions of interest. And I had no
20:27
sense of peace about letting my name stand. Uh, I
20:31
am 67 years old now. I've had a wonderful career,
20:36
and I, um, just did not feel within myself called
20:41
to let my name stand. Had no spark of interest or
20:47
anything like that at all. I recognize that this
20:51
particular triennium, the three year period
20:54
between general, uh, synods, would be extremely
20:58
challenging. Our church faces a lot of major
21:01
issues, and I did not feel that at this stage of
21:07
my life, uh, that was where I needed to be putting
21:11
my energy. So because it's necessary for bishops
21:16
in our church to retire at 70, I had been
21:20
entertaining a personal plan to perhaps step down
21:23
sometime within the next two years to retire and
21:26
to live a quiet and peaceable life, as we say. And
21:31
so it was a difficult discernment, uh, very
21:35
difficult discernment as to whether I would let my
21:38
name stand. Sometimes we hear the call of God
21:41
through the voices of other people. And there were
21:45
a number of voices, people I respect greatly, who
21:51
raised, um, with me the prospect of letting my
21:53
name stand. And I simply did not have a sense of
21:58
peace about it. I could not see myself doing it.
22:02
And that, um, stayed with me. I did not feel I
22:10
could, um, put my name forward in a way that came
22:14
from the depths of my being with absolute
22:16
sincerity that I could do the video shoot, I could
22:19
write answers to the questions in a way that was
22:22
profoundly authentic. That was not there for me at
22:24
all. However, the voices of encouragement were. So
22:28
in April, at the House of Bishops, the final
22:31
discernment happened and I made a decision that I
22:35
would not let my name stand. It was not there for
22:38
me, and I was at peace with that. And it went
22:42
away. It went away. And it was nice not to have
22:45
that difficult discernment playing in my head as
22:48
it had for months. Yeah. And then as we narrowed
22:52
into General Synod, um, I had a foreboding that
23:00
there may be requests for more names and that I
23:03
may have to revisit or be obliged to revisit the
23:06
decision to let my name stand. And I was not in
23:11
the mix. Um, had no intention of doing so, had
23:17
done some discernment in the form of. There was a
23:21
request, those in the House of Bishops who may be
23:24
willing to stand if more names are requested.
23:26
Maybe you could just fill in the basic form and so
23:29
on. I played with that, not terribly seriously,
23:33
but did not submit the form, did not give
23:36
permission for it to be in the mix until the day
23:39
of the election. And that morning I woke with, um,
23:45
just a deep sense of spiritual agitation, you
23:48
might say. I had this sense that it was going to
23:54
come to me to make that decision. And I spoke with
23:58
my wife, Catherine, and she said something which
24:02
was very. She said, I don't think you can make
24:04
that decision. Um, I think you need to let the
24:08
Church make the decision. And it just struck me
24:11
deeply that, yes, I'm trying to control something,
24:15
thinking that it was all about my decision to
24:19
stand or not stand. And something shifted where I
24:23
realized, uh, I need to let go of something here.
24:27
My resistance is consuming me. I did not have
24:29
peace of mind. And then during the Eucharist, um,
24:33
I found a sense of equanimity. At this point.
24:36
There had not been a request for names. It could
24:38
have easily been the case. There wasn't. But you
24:40
just kind of get a sense sometimes, hey, that
24:43
something might be coming your way. And then when
24:46
the call for more names came, uh, that was when I
24:50
relinquished. It was, um, both painful and a
24:54
relief at the same time. You know, I knew what I
24:56
would be letting go of. And at that point, I just
25:00
had this sense that, you know, this is probably
25:04
going to be you, you know, and that was not a nice
25:08
sense at all. It was not a nice sense. But once I
25:12
relinquished, a, uh, sense of groundedness took
25:16
over, you might say. And when the voting happened,
25:19
in short, or. And I was elected, I was prepared
25:23
for that, you might say, you know, um, it was
25:26
powerful. It was a powerful moment. And, um. So
25:29
that's the story, Martha, of the. Of the
25:32
discernment.
25:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I really appreciate your sharing that,
25:35
because although it's a pretty specific story
25:38
that, you know, most people are not going to
25:41
experience the details of, it's.
25:43
>> Shane Parker: Not a specific thing. Yeah, like, there we all
25:47
face.
25:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: There's just parts of that that I relate to
25:52
deeply. And I'm sure people across, um, a whole
25:56
bunch of different contexts would relate to,
25:58
especially that piece around trying to control
26:00
something and having to surrender control. I mean,
26:03
I think that is just like at the heart of so many
26:06
calls stories.
26:07
>> Shane Parker: Yeah, for sure.
26:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Thank you. Uh, that's some very personal
26:12
sharing and I really appreciate that for our
26:16
listeners.
26:17
>> Shane Parker: One thing I've learned over the years that might
26:18
be helpful for people, sometimes we're called to
26:20
stay. You know, we're often so forward oriented
26:24
that we, you know, I need to do something next and
26:26
I'm called to do something. And in my experience
26:28
we're often called to stay. And that's a very hard
26:32
discernment.
26:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
26:34
>> Shane Parker: To stay the course. You know, it's not exciting in
26:36
some ways. And uh, anyway, I just offer that as
26:39
well.
26:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. Um, I think that's a really helpful
26:46
guidepost, uh, as well. Thank you.
26:48
Okay, so let's talk about the future of the
26:53
Anglican Church of Canada. You alluded, uh, to a
26:57
variety of challenges that face us as a church.
27:00
And again, um, you know, although our listeners
27:04
aren't, um, exclusively Anglican by any means, our
27:08
listeners come from a variety of traditions. I do
27:10
think that there are things that the Anglican
27:12
Church is facing that um, that are going to be
27:16
relatable and uh, um, recognizable for people
27:22
across a variety of traditions. So I think getting
27:27
your eyeballs, um, on some of these questions
27:31
could be really helpful across the board. So why
27:34
don't we just start by talking about the fact that
27:38
you have been in ordained ministry for close to
27:41
four decades and uh, you have served as both a
27:46
priest and a bishop. As you noted, um, in those
27:51
different contexts, what have you seen as the
27:55
greatest challenges that the church is currently
27:57
navigating?
28:01
>> Shane Parker: I think a central challenge is that our place in
28:08
the broad spectrum of our context. And I want to
28:12
acknowledge that context is very important. The
28:15
Anglican Church of Canada is in itself extremely,
28:17
extremely diverse. It has membership from coast to
28:21
coast to coast. It's in intense urban
28:24
environments. It's in very, um, uh, wild, remote,
28:29
wonderful environments. It's rural and everything
28:31
else. So context is important. So when we say
28:33
challenges, each context will present its own
28:35
challenges. But I believe there are some
28:37
underlying things. Foremost would be the falling
28:41
away of religious belief as a primary variable in
28:49
the lives of Canadians in the life of Canadian
28:52
society. Um, I described earlier being a child in
28:58
the 60s, most people had some sort of affiliation
29:03
that was acknowledged. Uh, those were the days
29:06
when if you built a church, you knew that there
29:09
was already a population around that church who
29:12
was keen to have it. There would be a mortgage and
29:14
so on. The post war period was a bit of a boom
29:17
period in terms of the building up of a lot of
29:20
mainline churches. And the simple truth is that
29:24
we're still living on many of the structures and
29:27
much of the culture of that post war period. But
29:30
everything has changed around us. Everything has
29:33
changed around us. And a great challenge is to
29:37
first of all see and understand that our place and
29:44
how that impacts us has changed profoundly. But we
29:48
have not guided change in a way that allows us to
29:52
meet the changed context. So in other words, we
29:56
have been changed by circumstance. We've not
29:59
chosen to guide change very effectively in most
30:03
contexts. And so we at one time would have had in
30:09
the Anglican Church, and I believe it's true for
30:11
other churches. Our own sense of identity, our
30:15
sense of self, our sense of importance, um, was a
30:19
fairly easy win. Our structures were big and
30:22
strong for the most part, and we referenced
30:25
ourselves as we did our business. We didn't always
30:29
reference society because we didn't need to,
30:32
because society was not telling us anything other
30:34
than, hey, it's great that you are who you are.
30:37
Great, knock yourselves out. You know, there's,
30:39
ah, a lot of affirmation, acceptance.
30:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, thanks for coming in.
30:44
>> Shane Parker: Yeah, exactly. All that changed, uh, when I was
30:48
appointed as the Dean of Ottawa in 1999. All three
30:53
levels of government in the city of Ottawa were
30:56
represented at that event. It was covered in the
30:59
newspaper. It was major news that the Anglican
31:01
Church in the fabled Christchurch Cathedral had a
31:05
new dean when I was elected bishop. Uh,
31:09
notwithstanding the fact it was during the
31:11
pandemic, there was absolutely no secular coverage
31:15
of the event. None whatsoever. Not a peep. And I
31:21
don't take that personally. But in Ottawa, I was
31:24
not someone who had a low profile. I was involved
31:27
in lots of things, uh, quite well known in the
31:30
community, but it was simply of no interest. It
31:32
wasn't newsworthy, I would say. When I was elected
31:36
primate, there was no coverage of that event
31:40
either. Even in the city of Ottawa, where I'm
31:42
from. Okay, that's great. I don't take that
31:45
personally, but that is significant in terms of
31:49
the place we have. We did because we're good at
31:54
ceremonial. The Christchurch Cathedral in the
31:58
nation's capital worked with Heritage Canada to
32:01
orchestrate some beautiful, uh, commemorative
32:04
services for, uh, the late Prince Philip and Queen
32:07
Elizabeth ii. Um, valued because we know how to
32:11
process, we know how to stage those types of
32:13
ceremonies. Um, but it was not because we were
32:18
Anglicans and had a cathedral and everyone thought
32:22
that's where it should be. It's because we were
32:25
there and the Queen is an Anglican. It was the
32:27
right thing to do. Glad to do it. Um, our
32:30
tradition as Anglicans is such that we could craft
32:34
a, uh, state ceremony in a way that allowed
32:37
different expressions of faith, or no faith to be
32:40
part of the liturgy and so on.
32:42
But moving away from that, back to the point
32:44
point. Many churches have not accepted or
32:48
recognized or studied or analyzed the context that
32:53
has changed them. M. Right. And how do we speak in
32:59
that context? Uh, how do we evangelize in a
33:03
context where we accept religious pluralism and in
33:06
many ways celebrate, uh, different faith
33:09
traditions? What does that mean? How does that
33:12
work? Um, how do we, uh, measure our success, you
33:19
might say, in a context where the growth of
33:22
churches is almost an oxymoron? Um, so that's a
33:28
huge challenge. It's the recalibrating of who we
33:31
are as Anglicans, who we are as Christians, who we
33:36
are as other people of faith in a context that
33:38
does not celebrate our existence or recognize it,
33:43
or in some cases even know about it. Right?
33:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
33:47
>> Shane Parker: So that context changes us. Uh, we see it
33:52
expressed in declining attendance and
33:55
participation. We see it expressed in not having,
33:59
um, a natural presence, uh, in media, uh, and so
34:04
on. Right. So the question becomes, how do we live
34:09
out our faith in a context that exerts itself us
34:14
in ways that diminishes us or causes us to change,
34:18
causes us to shrink while we're holding up
34:21
structures we've been living in and with for 50,
34:23
60 years? Right.
34:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
34:26
>> Shane Parker: So the challenge is to guide change. How, uh, do
34:32
we guide change? What markers do we hold on to
34:37
from the past, if any? What is important? How do
34:40
we relate to the world around us? Do we want to be
34:43
seen as, ah, the object of charity? You know, come
34:47
to our garage sale, come to our fundraiser so we
34:49
can pay for our costs. Is that how we want to
34:52
position ourselves? Uh, or do we want to, um, do
34:57
the necessary restructuring and the consolidating
35:00
and the drawing together and leveraging our assets
35:03
and resources to be basically at, as financially
35:07
independent and viable as possible. So what we
35:11
present to our context is we don't want anything
35:13
from you. We're here to serve. Mhm. We're
35:16
compelled to serve because God is love and God
35:19
compels us to make everything good for everybody
35:22
right and just and true. We need to present that
35:26
to the world around us that we actually don't want
35:29
anything. We're here to offer. We're here to serve
35:32
in partnership in ways that are sensitive and, and
35:36
you know, to quote St. Francis, preach the Gospel
35:39
always, if necessary, use words. You know, how do
35:42
we display by our actions, by our posture, that we
35:46
are not the object of charity. We don't want to
35:48
get inside your heads and pull you into something
35:51
that, you know, we will meet you where you are as
35:54
Christ did, and we will serve as Christ did, from
35:58
a place of love.
36:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, truly.
36:02
I mean, you've said a lot there and, uh, I guess
36:05
there are a couple of threads I want to pull on.
36:08
But first of all to say that, you know, I think
36:11
you would be hard pressed to find anybody who is
36:15
serving in ministry right now, um, kind of in any
36:19
capacity in the church who doesn't feel that sense
36:22
of, um, weight of the institutional baggage that
36:30
we are sort of carrying around and feeling.
36:34
>> Shane Parker: The effects of change being exerted on you instead
36:36
of guiding it.
36:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, truly, truly. Um, and you know, I also
36:43
just want to say, like, my co host, Loren and I
36:45
are big fans of the work of Nandra Root, and he
36:50
would kind of go like one step further in terms of
36:53
what that change looks like. It's a very like,
36:57
basic spiritual change. Like, how do you
37:00
communicate the living God to a, ah, society that
37:04
primarily doesn't think on that transcendental
37:08
plane that is, you know, formed to think in terms
37:12
of, um, you know, the secular reality. So like,
37:17
just that basic communication piece of what, like,
37:21
who is this God and how do we recognize God's work
37:25
in our lives? And why does that matter? I mean,
37:29
that basic piece is also just such a barrier in
37:34
terms of, um, the church having something
37:38
meaningful to speak into the world.
37:40
>> Shane Parker: Yeah, uh, very much so. And you know, that's where
37:44
we have to check what is important for us to say,
37:48
you know, what we think is important and how we're
37:51
heard and how language plays out. Uh, I'm not
37:55
suggesting for a minute that we sort of water down
37:59
the power of the gospel. In fact, I would say
38:02
quite differently that I believe our liturgies,
38:04
the formality of our liturgies, the different
38:07
language of our liturgies is actually an
38:09
attractive thing, uh, to make liturgy, you know,
38:12
super accessible, to make it feel like every other
38:15
type of gathering that happens in society is not
38:18
necessarily the way to go. You know, why would you
38:21
want more symmetry with the culture around you? Do
38:24
you not want to offer something that is, uh, a
38:26
respite from that and so on. So having humble
38:29
confidence in the best of our traditions is
38:32
important. At the same time, uh, the language we
38:36
use to express the living God, uh, beyond our
38:40
context, we have to understand how that's heard
38:45
and to consider whether the words are more
38:48
important. The religious terminology is more
38:51
important than words which express our deepest
38:54
faith. So the language of justice, the language of
38:57
love, the language of compassion, of
38:59
reconciliation, uh, those are words that mean
39:02
things, um, across cultures, across religions. And
39:07
of course, they express the nature of God.
39:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
39:12
Okay. I'd like to just take a bit of a sidestep. I
39:16
want to come back to, um, some of those pieces
39:21
that you named briefly around what does need to
39:24
change and how we do need to think about our
39:26
resources, um, and who we are and why that
39:29
matters. But again, as somebody who has served in
39:33
a variety of levels of leadership in the church,
39:36
I'm curious to hear from you, um, how you see the
39:41
impact on church leaders of trying to minister,
39:48
um, in times of such exceptional change, where in
39:53
so many ways, we're trying to pretend as if the
39:55
change isn't happening. Um, like we. What are your
39:59
observations for church leaders? Again, like both,
40:04
uh, ordained and laypeople?
40:08
>> Shane Parker: So it's very important to understand what business
40:11
are you actually in? Right. Like, what are you
40:14
supposed to be doing? And we come, especially in
40:19
the post second World War period from the idea
40:22
that you do programs, m. You do things. And that's
40:26
really important. If people come to your programs
40:28
and all that, and I'm not knocking that. That is
40:31
important. But if you find that you are trying to
40:35
engineer activities are attractive to a bunch of
40:38
people, and that's why you exist, you might be
40:41
missing something really important. Because
40:43
perhaps, um, what matters is community. What
40:49
matters is people gathering in a space where
40:53
there's a degree of familiarity, both in terms of
40:55
the physical space, the people, the liturgy, uh,
41:00
the music and so on. It's a place of respite and
41:04
to see. To lift up, you know, our worship, our
41:07
times of gathering. For most of us, that's two or
41:10
three hours on a Sunday morning. That's the
41:12
principal engagement people have with their church
41:15
communities. You know, uh, the programs that
41:18
happen during the week, depending on context, for
41:20
sure, are important. But worship and pastoral care
41:25
are highly relational things. And they are about
41:29
being a, uh, community of faith from birth to
41:32
death, which will care for you, which will know
41:34
who you are, know your story, and receive you.
41:38
These are unique propositions in our society. I
41:42
don't know of any other body which gathers people
41:46
together on a weekly basis, intergenerationally,
41:50
multiculturally, to listen to values that directly
41:54
benefit the common good, to sing together, to have
41:58
intergenerational relationships, uh, to be able to
42:03
care for one another. To be missed, to have
42:08
friendships and so on. It's a very powerful
42:10
proposition, and it's unique to us. You know,
42:14
lots, uh, of people do programs and things, but
42:17
the kinds of relationships that build within the
42:21
heart of the worshiping community and its pastoral
42:24
care of one another and its nurture of one another
42:28
are really, really important in a time where
42:31
social isolation and loneliness and not belonging
42:35
and uncertainty. And I don't mean theological
42:38
certainty. I just mean stuff changes. A liturgy
42:43
carefully crafted is both familiar and new at the
42:46
same time. Uh, the smell of a space you return to
42:49
every week, the people, you know, these are things
42:52
we can't. We undersell or undervalue at our peril.
42:57
We can't become more zappy and attractive. And,
43:00
you know, that's, uh, that, yeah, good
43:03
communications is good. You know, working on your
43:05
visual brand is good, but the brand is not what we
43:10
looked like. It's who we are. And who we are as
43:13
Christian communities are places where people
43:16
gather from birth to death, intergenerationally,
43:19
form bonds of friendship, affection, pastoral
43:21
care, are nurtured in faith, are fed, and it's a
43:24
place of respite and inspiration and challenge.
43:27
So, you know, that's. It's hard to accept that
43:30
that's all you got to do. You know that as a
43:35
pastor, um, building relationships with your
43:38
people is really, really important, and enabling
43:42
relationships is really important. I used to teach
43:45
pastoral ministry and sociology, and I used to say
43:48
that a lot of clergy leaders, especially, have
43:52
trouble with visiting people. Well, you know, why
43:55
would I do that? But I say, well, it's a survey of
43:58
your parish. You know, you're basically doing data
44:02
collection, which will tell you everything you
44:05
need to know about your parish. You will it better
44:08
if you simply get to know people and, you know,
44:12
how you guide that community will be changed by
44:15
your knowledge of all the parts. In a sense, you
44:18
know, these sound very. Almost colloquial,
44:22
parochial, bucolic, but they're the important
44:26
tools of church leadership. Um, you know,
44:29
presiding well at worship, taking care to make
44:31
sure worship is not so much trendy and always
44:34
changing. But what gives that blend of
44:37
predictability, of challenge, of routine, the
44:40
liturgical year that folds over and people mark
44:42
time. So works of justice, advocacy, uh, um, other
44:48
types of programming are important. But if that's
44:52
where you're seeking to hope that you will grow or
44:57
you might be missing the mark, you know, at the
45:00
heart, we are a gathered community of baptized
45:02
individuals who gather around the table, care for
45:06
one another as God would care for us, and then we
45:08
Leave that to try to make the world look that way.
45:11
Um, much of that will not happen by corporate
45:13
programs. Much of that will happen by the baptized
45:16
going back to their contexts and making decisions
45:19
that reflect, uh, the love and grace and justice
45:23
of Christ.
45:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I appreciate, uh, kind of those notes about,
45:29
um, what basket to put your eggs into. Um, I think
45:36
that that is helpful.
45:38
I guess I am, um, interested though. I mean, you
45:42
as a bishop, you are kind of a pastor to the
45:44
pastors. And you said, like, as primate, you have
45:47
that pastoral role to the bishops. Like, how do
45:52
you. Like, we talk to so many church leaders who
45:58
kind, um, of struggle with, with the weight of
46:01
expectations, with the task list that seems, uh,
46:07
never ending. Um, with the kind of savior complex
46:14
that gets layered onto people with the anxiety of
46:17
the system. When you're trying to lead in an
46:19
anxious system, what are just sort of the pieces
46:23
of encouragement that you would offer to, uh,
46:26
leaders who are struggling with those things?
46:29
>> Shane Parker: For sure, I think go gently. First of all, you
46:32
know that the church belongs to God, not you, and
46:35
that all shall be well in some way at some time.
46:38
And, um, you know, apart from the normal checking
46:41
in, like, you know, do you have a savior complex?
46:43
Do you feel you're indispensable? Do you need to
46:45
show up for everything, like, just to, you know,
46:48
check in on that? Um, pastors need, uh, to
46:53
understand that there is discretion over your time
46:56
in most cases. And you don't need to tell people
46:58
why you can't come to a meeting, but make sure you
47:01
have time off. Uh, I found, as a bishop, uh, when
47:06
I spoke with clergy, if they couldn't give me a
47:09
nice story about what they did in their time off,
47:11
I would say, well, you know, you can tell me what
47:14
your time on looks like, but you don't actually
47:16
have a narrative around your most personal life,
47:18
like, what's that all about? You know, make sure
47:20
you've got a lovely story and it's okay, it's
47:23
okay, you know, and you don't need to explain that
47:25
to anyone. So just personal self care is very,
47:28
very important. And it's not selfish to take care
47:31
of yourself. That's important. But I think it is
47:34
necessary to look at it, uh, at a systemic level
47:39
that if the expectations are expectations based on
47:44
an idea of church and a time that simply is no
47:47
more, they need to be checked. You know, again,
47:50
what is the environment we're living in right now?
47:52
There is also the case that, um, we perhaps need
47:58
to address structures, you know, ah, do we need
48:04
all these Parishes, all these churches that are
48:08
struggling, or do we need to somehow consolidate
48:11
or create the conditions for them to thrive? Um, I
48:15
have never closed a church as bishop, but I have
48:19
appealed to the wisdom and good sense of the
48:22
people of God to say, if you think you're at the
48:25
point where a major, like, talk to me about it,
48:28
and church is closed, people amalgamated because,
48:31
uh, the laity of the church, in my experience, are
48:34
quite wise. They know when the jig is up and you
48:37
don't go in and close a church. But you need to
48:39
give permission for people to look at their
48:41
context and their resources. I like to use the
48:46
word thrive to describe the aspirations, uh, or
48:50
the ambitions of our church. We need to be a
48:53
church that can thrive. I do not like the word
48:56
grow because it's not a realistic word. It's also
49:01
a very blunt marker. Right. Thriving may lead to
49:05
growth. It may lead to sustainability. It may lead
49:08
I don't know where. So what conditions allow you
49:12
to thrive? Right. Um, yes. There's a matter of
49:18
hard resources. You need a building, you need
49:22
money to operate and to pay staff and so on. And
49:25
good programs of stewardship will help with that.
49:28
But mostly you need a community of love. A
49:31
community where people want to be there, where
49:34
they know and love their pastor. They take care of
49:37
one another, they journey together through time as
49:40
a social community as much as a community of
49:44
faith. Um, in my experience, and you see this as a
49:49
bishop, where you're very privileged to go from
49:51
community to community to community, the
49:54
healthiest are the places where there are obvious
49:56
friendships happening. Happening.
49:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting.
50:00
>> Shane Parker: People come into the room and they feel the
50:03
authentic friendships. Uh, you know, we're glad
50:07
you're here and join in, and it doesn't matter who
50:09
you are. You know, again, we don't place high
50:13
value on that. But that's the one thing we propose
50:15
in a time where that does not happen in many,
50:20
many, many contexts and places. Right. Uh,
50:23
community of life, intergenerational, you know,
50:26
cared for, known, accepted, heard, understood, and
50:30
gathers weekly. You know, uh, that ritual of
50:34
simply being a human community together in a
50:37
familiar place, um, is a very important part of
50:41
being a human being. You know, it's your tribe.
50:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, it truly is. Yeah.
50:47
So I think you've offered, like, a number of
50:49
pieces of what a thriving church could look like
50:52
about places, um, where change is necessary, some
50:56
notes about what, um, what that change could be
51:00
oriented toward. What do you see the national
51:02
church body's role being in helping the church
51:07
navigate this Season of change.
51:09
>> Shane Parker: So I will speak specifically to the Anglican
51:13
Church of Canada. Other people. So, you know, the
51:16
national church organization, um, the national
51:20
church is the bishops, parishes, dioceses, clergy,
51:24
people. Right? Like that's the national church.
51:26
But as an organization, the national church needs
51:31
to serve and support the interests of where
51:34
ministry actually happens, which is in the
51:37
dioceses and parishes and with the clergy and
51:40
people and bishops of our church. So like the
51:44
phenomenon faced by most parish churches, um, our
51:50
national church has roots in an era when it was
51:54
big and strong and seen to be important both
51:59
within the church and outside the church. And
52:04
there was a lot of heavy duty program that
52:06
happened and still happens in some national
52:09
churches. And that is confusing in some ways
52:14
because the locus of ministry is not a national
52:19
body. It would be in the gathered communities
52:23
called parishes, and maybe at some level in
52:26
dioceses. But is the Anglican Church doing
52:30
ministry when its national church does it, or is
52:32
the Anglican Church doing ministry when any one
52:34
part of it's doing it in its own context? Right.
52:37
So I think the reset, which has been called for
52:40
unambiguously by the General Synod of the Anglican
52:43
Church of Canada is to consider what is the key
52:47
and essential role of the national office, and
52:50
that's to convene, to coordinate, coordinate and
52:52
communicate and to provide operational support to
52:56
the dioceses that comprise the Anglican Church of
52:59
Canada. And part of the convening and coordinating
53:03
and communicating function, uh, is not so much to
53:06
do programs, but to locate and identify
53:10
individuals who have expertise, who might be
53:13
doing, uh, work around migrant workers, for
53:16
example, or human trafficking or youth ministry,
53:20
and to convene those players and support them as
53:23
they become mutually supportive and share
53:26
resources. So it's a very different model. You
53:29
know, program is not happening in the national
53:32
office. The talent, the ambition, the ministries,
53:37
the skill is convened and coordinated so that
53:41
there can be ministry happening in the Anglican
53:43
Church of Canada in the context where it most
53:46
matters. You know, so the national office in many
53:50
ways is oriented to serve the constituent parts of
53:56
the church, not to be a body that is kind of doing
54:00
its own thing. Right. Or as a parallel thing. Now,
54:05
in our tradition, the ministry of the primate,
54:08
which is not about the person, it's about the
54:11
connecting, uh, nationally, continentally,
54:15
internationally. That's very, very important. You
54:18
know, we are in communion, uh, with one another,
54:21
with the Anglican commun, have a full communion
54:24
relationship, there's ecumenical relationships. So
54:27
supporting those relationships and building them
54:30
is also an important national function. The
54:33
primate of Canada can bring the Anglican Church to
54:37
any number of conversations. And that's important.
54:40
Um, so to make a long story short, I think the
54:44
challenge, uh, which we will undertake, uh, is to,
54:49
to create a national office which is seen to be
54:54
directly valuable and supportive to the dioceses,
54:58
the bishops, the clergy and people and parishes of
55:01
the Anakin Church of Canada. When you think of the
55:03
General Synod or Church House. Right. I know what
55:07
that does and it supports me in my ministry or
55:10
it's doing something that only it can uniquely do.
55:14
Right, right. So it's a different structure, it
55:18
needs to cost less, it needs to be self funding
55:20
wherever possible and it needs to say to the
55:24
dioceses, uh, we actually need less money from you
55:29
because we have focused on things that serve you
55:33
and wherever possible we've leveraged the assets
55:36
held by our church to fund it. Right. So it's
55:40
just. And that's true of a lot of Synod offices as
55:44
well.
55:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, you know, I was just going to say actually
55:46
like, do you see the translating to the diocesan
55:50
level as well? Because I think that uh, it has
55:53
been so easy to see the individual parishes as
55:57
supporting the broader structures of the Anglican
56:00
Church. And in many ways that kind of like suits
56:03
our Anglican temperament because we like all of
56:07
the bishops and the, you know, pomp and
56:10
circumstance and all of those things. But um, but
56:14
yeah, to really be.
56:15
>> Shane Parker: Clear about, you know, I take very seriously the
56:18
fact that I have a significant title and place.
56:21
But in my experience, and I learned this when I
56:23
became um, a dean, uh, Adrian, uh, Clarkson had
56:28
just been appointed Governor General and she's an
56:31
Anglican, as you know. And um, she uh, helped me
56:36
understand that uh, if you have a job and a title,
56:40
you use it to do good things, things. Don't
56:43
apologize for it, you know. So I'm very aware I
56:46
would do nothing to diminish the office of
56:49
primate. But it's not about aggrandizing me or you
56:54
know, um, it doesn't have value in its own right.
56:57
It has value because of the good things it can do
57:00
in terms of being a symbol of unity, a, ah,
57:03
gathering function, speaking for the church on
57:06
important issues.
57:07
>> Martha Tatarnic: And so, yeah, that's really well said. Thank you.
57:11
Okay, I have one more question before we take um,
57:15
a quick break. You noted that you're 67 years old,
57:21
that uh, you need to retire at the age of 70. So
57:24
you have sort of a three year mandate that's
57:27
pretty clear cut. What for you would signify to
57:33
you at the end of those three years that the
57:37
church is on the right pathway of change?
57:42
>> Shane Parker: Well, I think the pathways is the operational word
57:45
there. We did do a Lot of consultation to create a
57:49
document called Creating Pathways. There are six
57:51
distinct pathways, uh, which are clear. They need
57:56
to be operationalized, they need to be brought
57:58
into effect. I would hope that at the end of three
58:01
years we can look back and say we made significant
58:04
progress on those three pathways and they will
58:07
lead to deep change. There's no question about it.
58:10
Uh, so that would be important. Um, as I consider
58:14
our church at this time, there are sort of three
58:18
areas, um, three pillars that we kind of stand on
58:23
right now. One would be the pathways, the other
58:26
would be our property, the property situation we
58:29
face. And the third would be the staff and
58:32
programming and operations of Church House. And I
58:35
don't mean the building, I mean the staff of the
58:38
central office and the various activities and
58:41
operations that happen here. Each of those need to
58:44
be addressed in their own right. There's some
58:48
significant overlap between those three pillars,
58:51
but I believe there can be measurable results in
58:55
each of them which would see us at the end of this
58:58
trainium, um, looking and feeling quite different
59:02
and having a different understanding of how we
59:04
resource our national office and how our national
59:07
office is very much oriented to serve the
59:10
interests of the constituent parts of the Anglican
59:14
Church of Canada while lifting up those roles that
59:17
can only uniquely be done by the primate, uh, or
59:21
by the, uh, central office.
59:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, that sounds necessary and challenging
59:30
and, uh, exciting.
59:32
>> Shane Parker: Exciting. It's good. It's good work. It's good
59:35
work. Work that has to be done. Echoing back to
59:37
the first part of our conversation, we need to
59:40
understand our context and we need to guide
59:42
change. Change. And that means making decisions.
59:45
And if we don't guide change, we will be changed.
59:47
And that's not very nice.
59:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely the case, isn't it?
59:54
Okay, well, let's take a quick, uh, break and
59:57
we'll, uh, come back for some closing questions.
1:00:03
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast. I am
1:00:07
with Archbishop Shane Parker and we are going to
1:00:10
wrap up with some closing questions. So,
1:00:14
Archbishop, if you were Pope for a day, what
1:00:19
would, uh, be the content of those 24 hours? And
1:00:22
again, you can take these questions as seriously
1:00:25
or not as you want.
1:00:27
>> Shane Parker: Well, I have tremendous respect for the Roman
1:00:30
Catholic tradition. Uh, I did my Anglican studies
1:00:33
at a Pontifical institute in Ottawa, St. Paul
1:00:36
University, and a tremendous respect. Uh, so I
1:00:40
offer these with, with a gentle edge. Uh, I would
1:00:47
rapidly, um, facilitate the ordination of women.
1:00:50
Uh, it's quite clear that, uh, from an Anglican
1:00:54
perspective at least, and I think even from a
1:00:56
strict biblical perspective that, uh, women were
1:01:01
the first Witnesses to the resurrection, the first
1:01:03
apostles to the apostles, and that. That ministry
1:01:06
is a tremendous value. Value to the Church. So
1:01:09
that's something that I would do as well. Um,
1:01:14
otherwise, I would probably echo some of the
1:01:16
comments I made earlier. You know, I think, uh,
1:01:19
our church needs to, um, uh, focus on ensuring
1:01:24
that is a place of safety for everyone. A, uh,
1:01:28
place of love, a place of intergenerational, uh,
1:01:31
relationships and so on. And I think I would use
1:01:34
the influence I would have as Pope, which is
1:01:36
significant because the Pope gets a lot of press
1:01:39
to. To speak to issues of justice, uh,
1:01:42
environmental justice, social justice, um, and,
1:01:48
uh, as Pope Leo does, to influence wherever
1:01:52
possible, uh, creating an environment where the
1:01:55
dignity of every human being is respected and
1:01:57
people can live in safety and prosperity and
1:02:00
thrive.
1:02:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, that sounds like a very busy day for you,
1:02:05
but those sound like really good, uh, good things
1:02:10
to aim for. Thank you.
1:02:12
Uh, was there a theological or historical
1:02:15
Christian figure who you would want to meet, bring
1:02:19
back to life, have lunch with? Who would that be?
1:02:24
>> Shane Parker: I've never actually considered that question. I
1:02:27
love the notion of the communion of the saints and
1:02:30
being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.
1:02:33
And, uh, I have a very close friendship with
1:02:35
Albert Dumont, who is Algonquin's spiritual
1:02:38
teacher. And I always say, uh, to him, who found
1:02:42
his way back into his traditional spirituality
1:02:45
from a very rough, rough road, um, that his
1:02:49
ancestors called him home, you know, And I am very
1:02:53
conscious of the heritage, uh, that I come from
1:02:57
as, um, Celtic Christianity is sometimes used.
1:03:01
And, um, I can't think of an individual. I'm just
1:03:06
conscious of my forebears in faith and those who,
1:03:10
um. Especially bishops. And I'm thinking of
1:03:15
Cuthbert, for example. Worker bishops. They had
1:03:18
things to do, you know, the trappings weren't
1:03:21
there. My favorite mode of dress, as primate, as
1:03:24
people will see, will be to wear a chasuble and to
1:03:27
carry a small primacial staff instead of a big
1:03:31
cross. Uh, I'm on the move. Ready to go.
1:03:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Okay. That's good. I like that. Ready to
1:03:38
work, ready to move. What will history remember
1:03:41
from our current, current time and place?
1:03:45
>> Shane Parker: I believe history will remember that the Church,
1:03:50
even as it tried to celebrate its, um, place in
1:03:54
society, uh, faced a major existential crisis
1:03:59
which allowed it to find its core and to celebrate
1:04:06
its life with confident humility and find its way.
1:04:11
Way, uh, in a manner that, um, touches the lives
1:04:14
of many people and influences the course of
1:04:17
history.
1:04:18
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, that's a very hopeful answer. That's great.
1:04:22
And I guess connected to that.
1:04:23
What is your Hope for the future of Christianity,
1:04:26
or is that sort of the same answer?
1:04:29
>> Shane Parker: Well, you know, I think we're very clear from the
1:04:33
prologue to John's Gospel that Christianity was
1:04:35
and is already in the future because Christ is
1:04:38
there. I. I think Christianity is, you know, I can
1:04:43
speak as a sociologist that, you know, people
1:04:46
create religious structures, and those religious
1:04:48
structures act to create people. Right. So when I
1:04:52
think of Christianity, I do think of Jesus. I do
1:04:55
think of the core, uh, teaching of Jesus. I think
1:04:58
of the kindness and compassion and courage and
1:05:02
strength and justice and reconciliation, those
1:05:05
deep qualities of God which Christ revealed to us.
1:05:09
And I hope whatever the future of Christianity is,
1:05:12
is that it embodies those values of Christ and
1:05:15
makes them known in the world, regardless of the
1:05:17
structures and decorations, uh, that might
1:05:21
surround it in any one culture, in any one point
1:05:24
in time. Yeah.
1:05:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thank you. Well said. Uh, is there somewhere that
1:05:28
people can find out more about you?
1:05:31
>> Shane Parker: If you go to the Anakin Church of Canada's
1:05:33
website, you'll probably, uh, find a little bit
1:05:36
more. Um, uh, I haven't done it yet, but I'm quite
1:05:41
sure if you simply Google me these days, there's
1:05:43
been enough going on, uh, lifted up, that, uh, you
1:05:47
can see that I am on Facebook. Shane Parker on
1:05:49
Facebook. And you can follow me, but, uh, I think
1:05:53
the Anglican Church of Canada's website is
1:05:54
probably the best place to go to find a bit more
1:05:57
biographical information. I do write regularly
1:06:00
and, um, monthly reflections. I've been doing that
1:06:04
for many years. So if you want to know more about
1:06:07
my spirituality, I think, uh, as much as my
1:06:09
ecclesiology, read some of the things that are
1:06:12
published in the Anglican Journal and other
1:06:14
places.
1:06:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, thank you very much. Well, we always end
1:06:19
with a word of peace, so, um, thank you so much
1:06:23
for your time, Archbishop Parker. And may the
1:06:26
peace of Christ be with you.
1:06:28
>> Shane Parker: Thank you very much, Martha, and also with you.
1:06:38
>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
1:06:39
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
1:06:42
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1:06:45
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1:06:48
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