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An Interview With Andrew Givler · This Dad Reads

• Jason: Welcome to This Dad Reads. I'm your host, Jason. Today I am so excited to have a guest whose fantasy book series has been a highlight of mine for 2026. not only is he the author of Ironbound and its sequel Cold Wind, he's a YouTuber, a lover of video games, and a lover of good food. So I have no doubt that we will find a ton of stuff to talk about today. It is Andrew Givler. Welcome to the show, Andrew. Andrew Givler: Hey, thank you so much for having me. Jason: You're so welcome. I immediately reached out to you, like probably when I hadn't even finished Cold Wind yet, and I was like, We need to talk. Like, I gotta have you on. Dude, we'll get to it, but I've already recommended this book to so many friends and everyone is drinking the Kool-Aid and I'm so happy 'cause we'll get there, but it's so good. I'm so stoked to have you. Andrew Givler: Sorry It's my special interest, so I'm always happy to talk about the thing. I'm always thinking about it. You know, you know that that like internet joke that's like how often are men thinking about the Roman Empire that that came out a few years ago? I was writing Ironbound when that like came out. And so one of my friends, she texted me and she was like, How often do you think about the Roman Empire? And I was like, I always always I don't. Jason: Ha ha. right. Yeah. Yeah. Funny thing. Andrew Givler: so yeah, I'm I'm always excited to dive into the weeds and talk about it. It's it's one of my favorite things. Jason: Love it. Well, also, full disclosure like I've only was introduced to you and your work thanks to you know Athon Books' promotion of the of the series. And to be clear, I've done my research on you, so I know I know some of what I'm jumping into here, but I want you, I want to give you the chance to introduce yourself to me, to the audience. Like, who are you? What are you about? Obviously, you an author, but I'm like all of us, there's so many things that make us tick. as much as you are willing to share. And I always want to ask and want to know like, what else do you nerd out about? So if you want to make Andrew Givler: gosh. Jason: Throw that in there at some point as well. That'd be awesome. Andrew Givler: Sure. Yeah. so my name is Andrew Givler. I'm also known on the internet as sigils. I've been a full-time gaming YouTube for YouTuber for almost a decade now, I think. a number rapidly approaching that. and so I've I've been kind of in like entertainment and nerd culture for a long time at this point. and I grew up being a big reader, big gamer. at one point I tried to become a professional gamer. It didn't quite work out. So then I decided to be a funny gamer instead. and then along the way I decided to start writing books, which was kind of always the plan, but I just other things kept distracting me. And so I'm here now. I most of the things that I nerd out about I have turned into hobbies. My my other big like niche nerd things that I have not yet monetized are are fish tanks and Lately I've been really getting into Riftbound, which is the Riot card game. so those are those are probably my Ooh, it's good, it'll get ya. If you if you like card games, it'll get ya. It's it's real good. I I was in a tournament yesterday. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jason: Yeah. I have tried to keep my distance from that. Like I can't, but Sorry to interrupt, but yeah. We're really I think I saw you post something on socials the other day. I was like, he jumped in. I was at Gen Con for the first time last year and I saw they had a huge installation. It was right before it was about to or maybe it had just launched, and I saw all I saw were the characters from Arcane and I was like, Ooh, what is this? And I was like, This is the slipper. I can't do T C Gs, like I can't do it anymore. Andrew Givler: Yes, they did. Mm-hmm. Are you gonna be a Gen Con this year? No? too bad I'll be there. Yeah, so this is a nerd thing I forgot. Seth Ring, who's another Athon author, Michael Chatfield and I own a board game company together. so we yeah, we actually had a booth there last year. We were doing our games, and we'll be back again this year. And Seth and I are actually gonna be doing a signing in Indiana, Indiana during Gen Con. Jason: No, unfortunately. You gonna go? bummer. Shut up, really? Dang, I missed you guys last year. What game what company is it? Andrew Givler: it's called Zero Strategy Games. we had a game called Shuffle Dungeons, which is like a cooperative dungeon crawler. and then we had a second game called The Sheep, which is like a horror survival wave game, where you're being attacked by sheep that become mutant monsters every night. so we did both those through Kickstarter. We were promoting that last year. we'll be back with a third game that we're hoping to launch later this year as well. Jason: Well, say less because I'm a huge tabletop game person and I well I will be following up on those things because I would and then we gotta get the cold wind, you know, the iron bound IP going in a game format. Let's do it. A deck builder. I love deck builders. Andrew Givler: Yeah yeah yeah we'll chat, we'll chat. Listen, we'll see. We'll see. You know, that was that was part of the idea originally, was like helping indie authors have other ways to use their stories and their worlds and things like that. and then what happened is our we we've made a couple things that were like IP agnostic, you just like standalones. And they've all done so well. We haven't had time to really pursue doing the author thing yet. we are working with a couple authors to like bring their IPs to life. Ironbow could get on the list one day, you know, we'll see. Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Andrew Givler: Michael and Seth both out out sell me dramatically. So, you know, their IPs are probably the ones that are up on the dock at first if we do something like that, but we'll see. You know, we'll see we'll see how it goes. I'm just I'm playing catch up. They have a few years ahead start. Jason: For now. For now. Anyway. Well, I'm gonna be following up on that after this after this because we'll have way more to talk about. But anyway, love games. well that's awesome. I I knew there was gonna be something niche in there. There's always something weird that not weird, but I don't think any t thing is weird, but everybody nerds out about something. So I'm still I like you, I a lot of mine are very public facing. but yeah, main thing main thing I've kept made all my Andrew Givler: Yeah, we'll chat, we'll chat. Jason: hobbies, my side hustles and just my stuff that I do for fun. So it's the best. I'm so bummed that I missed you at Gen Con. Yeah, exactly. Andrew Givler: It's something about being an adult, right? I know, that's c well, I mean, I guess Ironbound probably Gen Can was a few months before Ironbound came out. So it was yeah. and it was actually right around when Ryan Bound was originally supposed to get out, but it got delayed. and so which was all good things. It got delayed so that it could be in bookstores, which was I was like, sure, yeah, no no problem. but so it was already done at that point, but it was it was just sitting kinda in the chamber waiting to fire. Jason: Okay, okay. That's why. That'll be why. Okay. You know, it's a good thing, yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Sorry, I interrupted you a second ago. You're like there's something about being an adult. We were talking about hobbies. Andrew Givler: yeah, well, the more you monetize your hobby, the less people can c criticize you for spending time doing it, right? It gives me a veneer of responsibility. yeah, I gotta go right. it's my job. I'd be doing it for free, but like it's fine. Jason: Ha ha ha Exactly. Yeah. It is a fine line though I've found to like it to keep it fun for me. Like I can't have it be too monetized because otherwise it'll then it turns into a job job. So it's like I gotta keep it fun and like yeah. Andrew Givler: yeah. I am I am cursed to be successful enough with my hobbies that now they follow me wherever I go. Which is both a wonderful and terrible thing. Jason: Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Andrew Givler: But I wouldn't have it any other way, so it is what it is. Jason: I feel that. That's so cool. That's awesome. Okay, so let's go back a little bit. So like you when did you start your writing journey? I know I know that your first book, Soul Fraud, came out in like 2022. Or you released it in twenty twenty two ish. So like what was your kind of you said writing was always the plan. Like what did that look like for you to kind of get things up off the ground and to kind of I know cause you self published that, right? Andrew Givler: Yeah, that sounds right. I did, yeah. that's it's a pretty funny story, all things considered. I mean, ever since I was a kid, like my first dream profession as a kid was to be an author. I always say I sort of became a YouTuber on accident, right? YouTuber didn't exist when I was a kid. It it sort of fell into my lap. but I was I was trying to write novels. I I I started many novels when I was a kid. the first one I ever finished was right after I graduated college. and I still I was like, ugh, it's not it's not good enough. and then I started writing Soul Fraud, which is sort of like an evolution of that novel. It had a lot of spiritual successor, I suppose. and I started writing that about when I was like 25. but then that was right when YouTube really took off. I ended up moving to LA. I started having to put a lot more time into it, but also, you know, kind of having a lot of cool opportunities come. And so I just ended up not writing for I think about five years or so. and then, you know, I was turning 30 with the pandemic, and I was like having a little existential crisis. As one does. Yeah. And I and I was like, why have I never finished the book? Like that's what I said I wanted to do. Why have I never done it? and so I sat down, I dug Solfrod out of where hit where I was sitting on my hard drive and I read it for the first time in a few years. And I went, I still like this. and I hadn't finished, it was probably about like two-thirds of the way written or something like that, three-fourths. And I sat down and I finished it. and then I was like, Okay, great. I wrote a book. This sh the rest of this should be easy. Jason: As we all did, yeah. Mm-hmm. Andrew Givler: And and you that was when my YouTube channel like at its absolute peak. You everybody was inside, everybody was watching entertainment, they were like, you know, it was it was a captive audience, literally. And so I was like, this should be an easy thing to sell. and I we went to a bunch of agents here in LA who were like knew my manager and things like that. a lot of the big agencies, and they all very politely declined. Which at the time my manager was like, I don't know what that means. He's like these people, I've worked with them. They would tell me, like if they were like, This book sucks. No. But they're all like, it's not for me, or I'm not a good fit for it. I'm not the right person to sell it. There's all this like vague, sort of like, okay, I nobody knows what that means. And because I mean, neither of us were from the book industry at that point. So we were like, okay. So I started looking at a bunch of the authors I'd been reading and like, who do they work with? Like, let me see what I can hunt down. Like, I feel like I can kind of operate in some of these circles or whatever. and suddenly it started to just be like, they're self-published, they're self-published, they're self-published. you can do that? And then I started looking into self-publishing and I was like, wait a minute. This is a very similar thing to what I, you know, when you make a YouTube video, you come up with an idea, you film it, you edit it, you get a thumbnail made. When you write a book, you come up with an idea, you write it, you edit it, and you get a cover made. It's not, you know, there's like, okay, hang on a second. and so I decided to self-publish, and and kind of see what would happen. And so I did that. and it was in learned a tremendous amount. went went through a bunch of them. We, you know, started doing that series more. I got up to I think the fourth book in the series. and I had started to meet other independent authors and learned like Seth Ring was an early friend of mine, the guys, the Athon guys, Rhett and Steve, I met them very, very early on. and they would all start giving me advice and like, you know, mentoring me and being like, all right, dude, if you want to do this journey, like this is what it looks like. And this is and what I learned was that nobody wanted to buy urban fantasy at that like era. Like in in the traditional publishing sense, urban fantasy was considered a de genre. Jason: Mm. Andrew Givler: if your name wasn't butcher or if you weren't writing paranormal, you know, romance or romanticy urban fantasy, it wasn't selling. So that's why all the agents were passing. It had not you know, it may or may not have had anything to do with the book, but it was like they were uninterested in the genre, right? Like, I can't sell that. No thanks. and so that sort of was like, all right, well, I wanna write in the places where you can actually find success because I am cursed to make my hobbies my jobs. so I do need to get paid for this if I'm gonna put this much out of obsessive time into it. and Athon was like, Hey man, we'd love to work with you on something. If you ever write something that's kinda in our wheelhouse, give us a call. and so I'd had kind of this idea for Iron Bound. I think I sat down and wrote about the first third. and I sent it to Steve from Athon, and about two days later he was like, Yeah, we could sell that. and that's how we got in here. And now I'm juggling two series as like a madman and it's all, you know. Jason: Mm-hmm. Andrew Givler: Th there's a whole bunch going on, but it was it was just sort of like a little bit of an avalanche once you start f once you start falling, it just goes. Jason: Love it. So is debt collection series, that's the the series that Soul Fraud is from. Is that on continuing and ongoing still? Okay. Andrew Givler: Yep. That is. I am currently writing book six of that. before I sit down and and write the finale of Iron Bound, which is gonna be a chore, I'm sure. Jason: Okay, awesome. W well let's just jump right into it 'cause we have to talk about Iron Bound and first of all, I'm gonna start I feel like I'm just like love bombing you from the start. But I was like, I just I I just have to I just have to give you kudos because with these books, like it's that feeling that every reader is chasing, I feel, is to like have that you don't wanna put it down. All you wanna do is read this book feeling and like we're always chasing it, right? And I I mean, I would say I'm pretty much like a mood reader. I I tried I not Andrew Givler: Fine, you won't stop, no. Jason: I try not to bound myself by putting labels on anything, but I pretty much am a mood reader and like this book cut through everything for me and I could not put it down, both of them. And I I just want you to know that like that is a reader's dream and like such a gift because so much for what I do too, so many times I'm working with publishers and like I'm like, yeah, or independent authors, like, I'll read your book and it's kind of like I need to finish this book. Like I committed to it, I'm gonna do it. Like my hob again, my hobby is kind of my job. These books, I was like, okay, you know, the Athon guy said it was like one of his favorite books. I'm gonna check it out. And I so good. Like, and again, dude, I'm like telling everybody, like, you need to read this next. All my Red Rising fans, all my Sanderson fans, all my ev everyone in that sphere, which is basically all my online book friends. So, anyway, so I told someone books in yeah. Exactly. So anyway, I just want to start by saying all that. Andrew Givler: Sure. Yeah, yeah. Inside the sphere of the most popular current sci fi fantasy books. Perfect. Jason: I just want to say for anyone then who is unfamiliar or who has not yet listened to my recommendations, you know who you are out there or just haven't picked it up yet. All of our lists are so long. Tell us a little bit about like what is your elevator pitch for Ironbound? Like what is this series all about? Like what why am I geeking out so much about this series? Andrew Givler: okay, so Ironbound is a Roman Empire-inspired progression fantasy. and if you're unfamiliar with the term progression fantasy, the way that I'm using it, the way that it works for me in in my series, is that the magic of the world has some very hard and fast rules. So you could take something like the Wheel of Time, which I adore, but Randall Thor just is stronger, right? There's there's no delineation between being strong or weak in generally speaking, it's sort of a vibe. in progression fantasy, it's a little bit of a harder magic system. That doesn't mean that it's incredibly rule oriented. It sort of depends on the thing. It just means that there are moments where you achieve a level of proficiency where that means that now you can do something new. and so those moments you like have to sort of fundamentally understand as you're going through in order to kind of like qualify as progression. And then the stories usually revolve or because the power is so integral to everything, it revolves around gaining power about Getting stronger and that sort of thing. So in my story, it's a it's a coming of age story about a a boy who's wronged, about things, a life that's ripped away from him and a life that's also maybe not as advertised. and him kind of thrown in the deep end have to figure out how to both get justice and also survive that that what happens to him. And it's got a lot of if you've ever read Jim Butcher's Codex Alera or Will White's Cradle, if you kinda put them in a blender and put it made it first person, that would be sort of where we're living, I think, in the vibe. but there's there's a lot of other things in there too, that that sort of do that. The movie Gladiator, I just see it in my head every night before I fall asleep, you know, that kind of thing. Jason: Well, yeah, and like I think I'm glad you said that because progression fantasy is like it just hooks you and like it just keeps you on wanting to keep going and going, going because as a reader, you're like learning and growing as the protagonist is, right? And so it's just one of those series that I feel like you do an outstanding job. it's not just about the magic system either, because there's something about the way that you the words you chose and the plot. Like to me, if the plot's not hitting, it could be the most epic like system ever or the coolest system ever. But if it's not hitting and if it's not moving, I'm not interested. So tell me about that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Andrew Givler: Has to be for something, right? That's like ultimately. I think for me, the thing I'm most interested in with a lot of progression fantasy is like the cost of power, the price of power, the purpose of power. So it it's fun to make sure that you understand exactly what these people are capable of or what they're attaining or reaching to be trying to attain and being capable of. However, there's gotta be a reason. There's gotta be a compelling thing, there's gotta be pros and cons. There's gotta be things like that. one of the things that some people don't like about Ironbound, and they're free to, is that some people feel like he wins too much, which is a common progression fantasy power fantasy trope. I actually would argue that the main character loses most of the time that he wins. because power is like multifaceted. And one of the things that I think is really interesting is as he becomes incredibly strong, he actually has fewer and fewer options and fewer and fewer good choices. Jason: Mm-hmm. Andrew Givler: and to me, Delint like balancing those two things against each other is what actually makes it interesting. but you know it varies. Jason: Well, and also like it's about how he wins. Like it's not just that that happens. So I feel like that's also like kind of minimizing like the work that's going on, right? Like there's such like an emotional and like journey that he's going on with the people he's doing it with. And like I feel like that's almost I don't know, to me it like that doesn't mat and people like hyper focus on weird stuff so many times. So of course. No, they're wrong. They're wrong. Andrew Givler: Sure. I and and everybody's allowed to have like a note that doesn't ring it right. I wasn't I wasn't meaning be like, this is the pe it's just like to me, it to me it's like the thing that you that's like wrapped into like conversations about like power scaling and things like that. It's like how you know, that's part of the plot too, is that a guy who wins still can't win enough to save the things around him that are important. that to me is not winning. But, you know, for some people they might say, Well, but he's still winning, sure. Yeah, you know, fair. things like that. Jason: Sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean yeah. Well I mean same thing with like Dinnerman. It's like you can't have the series be called Dungeon Carler Carl like kill Carl. Like Carl has to they have to there's a reason why they're they're the protagonist, right? Like Andrew Givler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Plot armor's not real, but it is a little real, right? Within within within you know, unless there there's a few books that have gotten away with like really shattering the plot armor, but you can't do it all the time. Jason: A little bit. I mean, kinda. But outside of that, no one else is really safe in the series. Like, so I would say for like if you want people to you will go through it, folks. Like this series will rip your heart out. Like you can, you know, be frustrated all you want that the hero wins, but not everybody does, and not everybody survives. So like, no. Andrew Givler: Ha ha ha. New. New Yeah, 'cause price the price matters, right? That's the that's the thing, yeah. Hopefully. Jason: Yeah. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. Yeah. Well, you mentioned a couple series that kind of like you said if you put them in a blender and that's what you would get. But like what are some other books or authors that kind of like or were in your head while you were like coming up with the story or you or you're continuing to write it? Andrew Givler: Yeah, I I think that Codex Alera and and Cradle are definitely like probably the two most foundational for me. Obviously, a lot of people talk about Red Rising and Will of the Many. and it certainly has both the like the the the Roman I would say what came less from them. but both of those guys showed me how cool first person present was. which, you know, is has been traditionally not a very popular like hello word. Jason: Mm. Andrew Givler: style to use for non-YA literature. and I think Pierce and and James have both done like a tremendous job like legitimizing it and and showing how cool it is you can do with stuff. A lot of progression fantasy is written in third person. and so I really wanted to do something different. And and one of the real big strengths of first person present is the the combat, the fighting, the the way that you feel in those moments. So I wanted to make something that felt really Jason: Mm. Mm-hmm. Andrew Givler: grounded and like you were in it. So like this character who's striving to be stronger and in these like very intense situations, I wanted to feel it. Which for me, I like third person, I don't ever feel it quite as much, right? Like it's you're you're a little removed from some of it. and so it was it was kind of just trying to do progression fantasy in a different way, looking at some of the people I thought who were phenomenal and you know, wanted wanted to try to to keep up with the big dogs. but it Rome has always been interesting to me. I have a liberal arts education. I grew up with Gladiator. So a lot of it was I read Cradle and I was like, man, this is so cool the way that he's kind of like combined these different elements. But I am not super steeped in anime. I'm not super steeped in a lot of like the Eastern influence that he's using. I couldn't write something like this authentically, you know, because I don't know all the puzzle pieces. I don't know how to use them properly and that kind of thing. And I was like, well, I do know Rome. Jason: Mm. Andrew Givler: And that was sort of like how we got there. with a little bait and switch and thing like that. and then, you know, obviously it's got my own sort of flair and and and things that I I like in there. I grew up reading like a lot of Michael Stackpole, a lot of yeah, you know, I really like Peter McLean's Priest of Bones. Like th there's a little bit of Grimdark in there, but it's not really Grimdark. but it is people don't have a good time, that's for sure. Jason: Yeah, right. I was gonna ask, like, how has your writing has your writing process changed at all from the very start? Like, do you approach books the same way? Are you a planner? Are you just kind of like a fly by the seat of your pants type guy? Like how do you s how do you do these things? Andrew Givler: I am I am more of a pantser for sure. what I what I usually say is that generally when I sit down to write a book, I I write like a one page little not even an outline, almost like a summary, like a book report of what I think the book will be. It's usually like three or four paragraphs. And what happens is generally, you know, it's like starts here, he goes through this, he achieves this, da-da-da-da-da. And usually what happens is the beginning is correct, the middle is mostly correct, and the ending is wrong. And that's usually how it ends up like playing out. Jason: Okay. Yeah. Andrew Givler: what I have gotten more comfortable with is trusting that I will find it and that I will do whatever it takes to find it. So not worrying when I stray off of my like plan. and and being like, okay, well then I just I will know that this is not right. and so sometimes I write paths and I go, This sucks. I don't like this. and I rip it out and I go back to the fork in the road and I take the other path. and so Jason: Mm. Andrew Givler: Coldwind was really interesting because that was one of the ones I've been the most wrong about. Not in actually what happens, but in how long it would take me to accomplish what happened. So Ironbound was originally supposed to be a trilogy. Jason: okay. Andrew Givler: And Coldwind accomplished half of what I wanted to do. yeah. And and I was like, that's not good. Like I got, I wrote, I wrote the last chapter, and I remember I was home for Christmas. I was visiting my parents and I was like off in my old room, like writing, and I finished and I came out, and then my mom was like, Are you okay? You have a weird look on your face. And I was like, I think I just finished a book. She was like, That's good. And I was like, I wasn't expecting to finish it, but Jason: I love to hear it. Andrew Givler: I think I did, but you know, Coldwind was already longer than Ironbound, which was the longest book I'd ever written. It ended up at like 220,000 words or something like that, you know. And I was like, I can't do another book. You know, I can't, I can't turn into a 400,000-word manuscript. They will shoot me. and so I went to them and was like, hey, what if I had one more book? and so they they they agreed and they were super kind about it, but Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Andrew Givler: Book three ended up being weird because I kind of had to write it backwards. So that was like a new experience for me. because I was like, well, I know how this one ends. but originally the like beginning was supposed to be Coldwin and I've already written that. So what goes here? and so that was like making it backwards, which was I didn't like that. Yeah. Reverse engineering a book was was weird and I didn't enjoy it. but we got it done and I really, really like how it is. and I think book four will be much more straightforward because I've sort of already boxed myself into a path. There's Jason: Like reverse engineering. Yeah. Andrew Givler: There's only a few more steps to go and I know what they are. I know I I've written the final line of Ironbound already. I know what it is. I know where like I know where we come in for a landing. There'll be some meandering along the way, but Jason: Okay. Well, as someone who knows and likes plan and knowing that there is an end in sight, that makes me happy because obviously we don't want to be like lost and just like venturing forever. the show lost, I mean. but Yeah, but also lost. But also I'm sad because I would love this to be like a twenty book series and never end. So I'm I'm stoked to hear that it's at least not just three books, there's four. as a reader I'm stoked. Andrew Givler: Yes. But also lost in general. Jason: but also I hope that there's may is there more stories in this like world that you as might still have in you or are you feeling like you're gonna just call it like this is your you're done or do you feel like you just might need a little time to figure that out? Andrew Givler: There's two things. There's two things here. one is that the next thing that I write will most likely be, I've already talked to Athon about it. They're already on board. a prequel series about the fall of the gods. The second thing is that the ending of Iron Bound will be the ending of an arc. But there are ways that we could do like a second set or something like that. Jason: Beautiful. Awesome. Andrew Givler: Sort of depends how the you know the four if the four do well enough, then I get a lot more freedom to be like, hey guys, let me write three more books. you know, and and obviously they're not like super imposed, but it this is a business too. So the door won't be closed in a way where like I have some ideas about what we would do. There will be things that will not be resolved all the way that we could dive into. So it is possible. Jason: Yeah. Yeah, of course. Or tell a story in a game, you know. Andrew Givler: You know, there's o I'm always open to adaptation words. You know, that's one of my favorite things people ask at like book signing answer like, would you be willing to have this made into a TV show? And I love that question. Cause the answer is like yes. I would love somebody spend a hundred million dollars on my IP. Please do it. it's not me. Yeah, it's not me that's standing in the way going like, No Jason: Willing Yeah. Right. Actually that doesn't sound so good. Ex exactly. Right. Andrew Givler: But yeah, no, I I I think that there is a good chance we do more stuff there. If not, I I have some other things that are like sitting on the sidelines too. So we we have some fun stuff. I I also I thought of another example of of how the story meanders that you might get a kick out of. in the first book, like the second or third chapter, there's a moment where Valentina says the gods are dead. And I didn't know that when I started writing that chapter. which Having you've now read Coldwin, sort of a big deal. Not the story I thought I was telling. Jason: Yeah, yeah. That's cool. That's a cool note. I mean, you didn't even know where things were gonna go. That that's awesome. Andrew Givler: No, but she because she she said that, you know, because obviously they were taking an oath and they, you know, they were invoking the gods. And then she said, Well, the gods are dead, because I kind of wanted the world to feel a little broken and a little and I thought, that's kind of cool. And then I was like, but I didn't know we were doing gods. And then I was like, but I yeah, huh huh. and so I had to kind of like stop and think for a little while, but I was like, sure, let's play with this. And then as it sort of unpacked, I was like, this is great, actually. and it Jason: Yeah. Bleak. Yeah. Andrew Givler: What's fun is the prequel series, I don't want to say too much about it, but the prequel series was a separate idea that I had. And sort of through unpacking that, I began to realize that they actually could be parts of the same world and fit the same story, just in different eras. And then that really kind of like cascaded and and turned into a thing that I was really excited about. So we'll we'll get there. But Jason: That's so cool. Well, I for one appreciate that like I'm glad that you kind of like oopsed your way to there because I feel like sometimes things can get things from from me, from what the way I read fantasy, if it's all front loaded too much at once, like I can't do it. Like I can't track with it. There's too many characters. So I really love that you said that first person PO. It's just his perspective. And he's like learning things as he goes and it grows and gets bigger. So it gives the your audience a chance to like. keep up and it gives them an anchor, right? And that's why I feel like this series is so good because it like all good series do, they grow as you go. So I'm that's awesome to hear because as you I'm I don't want to talk spoilers, but as you said, like there's other things that get unveiled throughout this the course of what happens. And now like that sounds so interesting to me. Like I want to go and find out like how did that happen and who are they and like what Andrew Givler: Sure. Jason: what really went down, you know. So that's really cool. That's awesome. Andrew Givler: That is absolutely the the the fun part of first person is I have ideas. I you I think we're I think we're nowhere going, but my world building is often like what fits the moment and what goes there, you know, and then obviously I have to think about the repercussions. But like, the the naive coming of age main character in a first person thing where like the world doesn't work the way they think is so much fun to write in because I can c I can present something and then I can pull it away. but it's not a lie because it's him perceiving it and experiencing it. and it just really lets me do a lot of fun stuff that I I really enjoy. and so I I think book three has a bunch of that too, which will be which will be really fun. And then book four book four will will do even more. So I'm I'm excited to kind of finally pull off the you know, the the the the the tray top and be like ta da. Yep. Jason: Here's everything. Yeah. And you mentioned a character, who I won't say again, just in case people aren't paying or are paying close attention, that I'm assuming she's gonna make a return. So I'm excited to see. Like you did such a good you do such a good job of like ra like putting the crumbs out. And like I suck when it comes to so many little detail-y things, like the Cosmere of it all, like trying to connect all this and that. But I love a good I love a good bread crumb. So I'm just waiting to like pick that up at some point. So cool. So I'm so excited. Andrew Givler: Sure, yeah, yeah. Who can say? Who can know? Jason: Who knows? There's gonna be something. I just knowed I can already tell the way that you've the journey's already gone so far, something's cool is gonna happen. So I'm stoked for that. Andrew Givler: Book three is pretty spicy. so I'm I'm excited. I'm excited for it to get into people's hands so far. I think it's my favorite so far. I but every book I finish is always my favorite. So I don't know if that's like, you know, the most indicative, but I think it's my favorite so far. and hopefully people enjoy the journey. Jason: Ooh. Sure, I I bet. Well and well and like the title alone, I'm like, come on, that's l honestly one of the coolest like book titles ever. Like and by the time I mean, I don't even remember if I saw the name of the s the third book before I f but the way that you like when you finish Cold Wind and you read the title, you're like, no, like no. Like you it makes so much more sense. Like, but it's the most badass book title ever. Like so cool. Anyway. Andrew Givler: Ha ha ha. Be it'll be fun. Jason: something I want to know. Okay. I mean, I could talk about Iron Bound forever and obviously I want to get in your I just want to know everything, but I'm gonna find it out at some point, like everybody will. And guys, by the time the third book comes out, November, right? November, you will have time to catch up and you will tear through these books. So let me tell you, that's what I'm telling all my friends right now. Make room on your TBR, but even if you want to wait a little bit, the the you will hit that one, two, three by November 10th. Yeah. Andrew Givler: November. Yeah. Hit that midsummer, midsummer into you know, yeah, November, late summer, November, like little incline. Jason: Yeah, read them now, but also like if you don't wanna have to be impatient like I have to be now, then you have time. Anyway, you said this earlier, that some of the books that you you've been a lifelong reader. So I wanna know about what are some of your like nostalgia reads or books that you read as a kid that kind of are so really close to your heart. Andrew Givler: I mean, Wheel of Time is definitely there. Lewis, Tolkien, you know, the I think my my parents started reading Lloyd Alexander, Lewis, yeah, yeah, Lewis and Tolkien to me when I was like three. So I was already through the Book of Three, Narnia, and the, you know, Lord of the Rings by the time I was like five. so that so I was, you know, I was pushed into this. There was no I read so much growing up. Michael Stackpole was my introduction to sci-fi. I picked one of his rogue. Jason: Nice. Wow. Andrew Givler: One of his Rogue Squadron books when I was like about twelve and absolutely devoured that. I think I read everything Michael ever wrote, except for some of his like IP stuff. Like I think he wrote like Battletech and some other stuff that I never quite got into, but like his own like independent or like, you know, standalone fantasy and stuff like that. is a tremendous one. Tally and Revenant is like one of my favorite fantasy sty standalones of all time, which he wrote. Robert Jordan, of course. Jason: Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. Andrew Givler: See, dude, what else? I I I went through so much at a younger age. And then I took like a little bit of a break and I came back. I'm looking at my shelf right now. Right. And then I came back and there and there was a whole bunch of just like tremendous modern fantasy and sci-fi that had come out, you know, like Christopher Rocchio's The Sun Eater and the last like few years is just a phenomenal, like inspiring set, stuff like that. when I was 14, actually the way I discovered Jim Butcher was I I went to my public, the San Antonio Public Library where I grew up. It was a menace. I was there every week with like a stack of books. Jason: Yeah. Andrew Givler: And I took a stack of books. And so I I came in and one of the librarians pulled me aside and she was like, Hey, this author who writes another series that's like not really what you read, but that this one is he's really popular. He just published this thing. I think it's really in line with what you like. I reserved it for you. Here you go. And she handed me Furies of Calderon. So I read that at like fourteen or fifteen, which was really I was like, ooh, I didn't know we were allowed to do this. This is sick. Roman, yeah, sign me up. and so, you know, then obviously Butcher's the Dresden Files are a tremendous thing that I love because I I started writing an urban fantasy. I I really devoured it. I mean, you know, Aragon actually meant a big deal to me because I think po I think Christopher's like two years older than me. So when he published Aragon at 16, I was like, wait, I can start writing now. You know, I think that's what made me start writing my first book was just like, I thought I had to be an adult. Stephen King's book on writing, which is not necessarily a book like a like a fiction book, but it was a very tremendously impactful book in terms of like freeing me to write. I I recommend that one to anyone who's interested in writing. I think that's a phenomenal one. I it's it it's hard to narrow it down because the answer is like I was a glutton. I I Louis Lemour. I was I was reading Louis Lemour at a very young age. you know, a lot of like the Western stuff. I would love to write a Western someday. Jason: Everything. Andrew Givler: But I've already picked Urban Fantasy, so I shouldn't do two genres that aren't really doing very well at the same time. Jason: Well, I already was gonna pick I'm gonna read your everything that you've read. Any I don't care what genre an author writes in. When I find someone I like I'm gonna read all their stuff. So whatever. Andrew Givler: It's true. Wha w usually once you find somebody who has like the vibe and like they they can like spin the yarn how you you'll you'll follow them anywhere. But in terms of like funneling new people in, from the author's side of the fence, you have to go where the people are interested. Like, the deck collection now sells better than it ever has in its entire existence. And it's from the people reading Ironbound who go, All right, what else has this dude got? and so it's it's just like a you kinda have to, you know, pan for gold in the the right places, which is Jason: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Givler: Which is fine. I progression fantasy is a ton of fun. I have some other ideas of things that I think could be really cool that people haven't I haven't seen packaged this way yet. So I'm not complaining, but it's just, you know, it's how it goes. Go read the deck collection too, it's fun. Jason: So Yeah, right. I'm stoked. jumping back around a little bit. Like I know have you wrapped up the full cold wind? Are you still touring for cold wind or doing signings and stuff? 'Cause here and there? Andrew Givler: Yeah, we're still we're still kinda it it's it you know we're we're still I'm Iron Bound was one of the first four books to ever go in a bookstore for Athon. So we are we are at the beginning of figuring out how this works, what we're doing. So a lot of it tends to be I do if I go somewhere, we do a signing there. So I'm doing a signing in Denver because litRPGCon is in Denver. Right. We're signing at a bookstore. I'm going to Gen Con. So we're doing a signing in Indi, you know, so a lot of it is like, hey. Jason: Nice. Gotcha. Of course. Andrew Givler: I'm gonna be in this city, let's do a signing. and that kind of thing. So it it's not as organized of a like for the next month and a half I'll be touring. It's like, I'm gonna be here. Jason: Yeah, sure, sure. Well, the reason I asked is because I mean you're pretty still you're in the midst of it still. You have another book coming out later this year. So like what has this whole journey been like in terms of like there's been so many firsts I would assume for you. like what has this whole ironbound journey been like? Like what is y what is your headspace like? Andrew Givler: It's it's weird. do you ever have like a a dream or a plan and you make it and then you go to do it and then it works? And that's like surprising. You know like you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Usually I have ideas and they, you know, they work out for me, but they don't always go how like this is what I Jason: Like surreal. Like yeah, yeah. Andrew Givler: set out to do, right? We usually get lost and we go. I always say I never get to do things the easy way. They I get to do a lot of cool stuff, but like it's a big meandering, like I end up somewhere, right? and Ironbound was literally I was talking to Seth Ring and I was like, okay, well, you know, the deck collection's just not in a spot where indies are really thriving. I really I love the series. I I think people would enjoy it, but I I think I should, if I really want to write more, like I, you know, my goal is to write full time at some point. I need to be investing in the places that thing People are really excited to read and then they'll can read the rest of my backlog. And so I I said, I'm gonna write Iron Bound. I think that I have a a take on progression that's different. I think that you know, this intersection of being a YouTuber and an author means that I can sell physical copies. I sell more physical copies than most like indie authors who are very digital oriented. and I I think I could do something a little different that people will enjoy and then they'll they'll read the other books more. but as I said that I was like, somet something in this will be wrong. Right? Like that's just how it goes. and then it was like, hey. Can we put you in bookstores? Hey, you sold out your first print run. hey, the, you know, people are reading the deck collection in in new ways. And so a lot of it is like me sitting here being like, but something is gonna go wrong. Like, I it never goes quite like this. So it is surreal. It's awesome, and I like don't trust it. It feels like alligator infested water at all time. Yeah, it. Jason: No. This feels like a trap. Yeah. Andrew Givler: I don't wanna say it's easy 'cause it's not been, you know, I I I I've poured myself into into Ironbow, but like it's going smoothly, which is confusing to me and not my normal experience. Jason: Take it, my man. Take it, you know. Take the smooth times for when you when they come. Andrew Givler: And you know, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. but you know, it and things have been really funny. Like the the first batch of Ironbound that went out to influencers, they didn't even they didn't even mention it, right? They're just like, Ethan did a big book mail, and then all of a sudden I'm getting tagged in people reading Ironbound, and the book doesn't come out for like a month. you know, and I'm like, what is going? You know, my algorithm started serving me book talkers I had never seen before who were like, I just read this book and it's sick. And I'm like, I'm like in bed, you it's I'm in bed doom scroll and getting jump scared by my own content. and and I'm like, what are you? I'm like, that, you know, like, that pitch for that book sounds sick. I like, it's me. Okay. I don't I don't know what to do with this. So it's it's just been a very like, I'm disassociated from it. I'm like peering in through the window and like, it's very cool, but I don't, I don't know what to do. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Jason: Ha ha ha. I'd read that. wait. This doesn't feel like my real life. That's fun. That's funny. Well, hopefully it starts to sink in soon, so but even if not, enjoy the ride. Yeah. Andrew Givler: It I think being uncomfortable is good for me. I think being uncomfortable is good for me. It ki it keeps me honest. It keeps me working hard. So I'll I'll take it. Yeah. Jason: There you go. Hey, and if it keeps c getting good books at the end of it, that fine. Actually do what you gotta do. Do what you gotta do. Andrew Givler: That's the real dream. That's the real dream. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Let me be a little uncomfortable. It's better for the writing process. Jason: So I saw there's a little bit of discourse. I forgot where I saw it, but it was like maybe it was Athon putting it out there. Like some people say they want hardcovers for Ironbound and people are like, Absolutely not and like all the trade paperback lovers are like, Absolutely not. I love a trade. But like is that something that is you want to do, like special editions? Like I am also a collector, so like having a special edition of a book I really love is like really appealing. So Andrew Givler: Yeah. So that was Rage Bait, number one. so here the the story goes like this, because the long answer is that I can't quite answer this question yet, but I'll give you a story that might fill in the gaps. as I mentioned, Ironbound was one of the first four books Athan Vault ever put in stores. And it was like a big experiment. Like, hey, can we do this? Can you know, this like indie, can we move into this trans trad space and do something really cool? Let's find out. Jason: Right. Andrew Givler: So the first four of us, we only did paperbacks because they were like, we don't know if we can do hardbacks. We don't know like how the release cycle is gonna work. Just gonna put some paperbacks out there, see if the stores will bite. We'll go from there. Okay, great. and then and then they did, right? So Ironbound sold out of its print run in the first like three to four months, which usually a print run is about a year's estimated worth of sales. so you know, we really outperformed expectations. Bookstores are now putting, you Barnes and Noble's putting on shelves, indie bookstores are buying it and putting on shelves. I get tagged all the time, people finding it in the wild. my roommate found a copy in the wild the other day and sent me it. And I was like, that's yeah. So, you know, it it went from like a dream to an idea. But what meant what that meant was the next batch that went to stores, they all got hardbacks. And so it's just the first four of us that don't. But the normal trad release schedule is hardback. Jason: So cool. Andrew Givler: And paperback and maybe mass market or something like that. and so now we're off kilter, right? So next book comes out and they're like, Well, you only have a paperback, so I guess we're doing a paperback. Yeah. and so I have been getting a lot of requests of being like, Hey, are you gonna do hardback? I'd really want to get a hardback. And I'm like, I would love that, but I we're sort of in a weird spot. And so I've been bugging Athon about it, but also a bunch of people have. So when Ath posted that story where all the responses were absolutely not, those were Photoshop. Jason: Yes. So we have to do it. Yeah, yeah. Andrew Givler: Like every it was, it was it was all these people being like, please give us some heartback. And so Julie, who runs the account, she photoshopped it so that Ethan were like, no, I wouldn't want that, never, and posted it just as like rage bait because I had just seen her like the week before and was was like complaining about it. and so they're aware the discussion is ongoing. We have to figure out how to do it since we're sort of backwards. However, I feel good about it. Jason: sh That is too funny. Here's my take. Wait till it's all done, then release like a beautiful, like hardcover box set. Like that's what I would I mean, I grant that's probably not the best business decision, because you could probably make more money as you were if you were, but my the collector and me would be so happy in like a beautiful box set of Andrew Givler: I think if anything happens, it will happen after book four comes out. And it will be different. So I don't know that it'll be like a deluxe or a collector. It might be a a a slightly improved one, but it will still be something that I think we want to have in stores. So it will it will still most likely be that route, but it will be different too. So if you do like this art, I don't believe we're not I don't think the plan, and this could all change, and I'm not in charge. And if they get mad at me, nobody knows where to find me. Jason: Good. Okay, good. Yeah, good. Yeah. Okay, good. Ha ha ha. Andrew Givler: I think the plan is that the paperbacks will have their own set of art and the hardbacks would be something different, spicier, maybe a little more trad oriented. I I'm I'm yeah, yeah, yeah. Subject to change, void where prohibited, et cetera, et cetera. Jason: Take that with a grain of salt, everyone. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. Whatever happens. Yeah. Well, I will say I do love reading. If I'm reading physical, I love trade paperback. So I am not opposed to having them released that way. It's totally fine by me. Andrew Givler: yeah, and and and they're gorgeous. You know, for being a for being a paperback, I love the art and everything we've done with them. for me, I read almost exclusively digitally. So my my sh book my bookshelf is more like my trophy shelf. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it I want the hardbacks just so they all match. Not not having a hardback set of my own books bothers me. The only paperbacks on this bookshelf behind me are Ironbound and Coldwind, and I'm like, that feels weird. Yeah. Jason: That's me too, yes, yes. Yes, yes. Are yours? Yeah. But see, then I'm weird because it's like even with Sanderson, like he's doing a Warbreaker, a beautiful cover of trade paperback cover that Tor's doing of a book that I'm like, that cover is so gorgeous. Like I need that cover. Like I want the cover. So that's where they get ya. That's where they get ya. Andrew Givler: Yeah. That's that's it and trade is trade the big ones that are like almost hardback sized. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Jason: I mean, I w yeah, they're bigger oversized. So I guess I and that's what yours are, I would say. Those are yours are they're not the mass market paperback. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andrew Givler: That they're not the mass market they're not the shrunk ones. Yeah, I I guess. There there's been a whole bunch of sh changes in I you know, I was I was in a big st bookstore in San Diego and like everything was trade paperbacks. And I like, man, when I was a kid, everybody hated this and they were telling me like, yeah, no, these are what everybody wants now And I like, weird. So but I used to just have so many books in my in my like in my backpack that I like, Give me the mass markets, dude. They gotta just like get crammed in there. Exactly. Jason: Yeah, a new They gotta fit. Yeah. The same thing happened. A new Barnes and Noble opened in my town. and it's all trades, trade paper, almost everything. Which I'm like, okay, that's cool. But I'm like, where are the where are the hardcovers? Like if you wanna collect them or something, but I guess there's just not the place to do it. Andrew Givler: Yeah, no, it's a different vibe, different generation, I guess. Jason: I gotta go look for your book over there. I'll send you a picture if I find it. Andrew Givler: Yeah, yeah. and you can check on the website too. It'll it'll like tell you if they're in stock. 'Cause I always check around me 'cause I'll go sign them, but they're all like none in LA and they're all just like outer LA where I'm like, I'm not gonna go twenty-five miles. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jason: yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll do it. that's too far. Yeah. I'm in Central California. We gotta get you up here while I'll coordinate with my with my local bookstore. Exactly. Exactly. You mentioned books, like what are some of your other I'm big on like fandoms, so I'm like, I'm looking at my shelf and like any fandom that I love, I'm gonna like I want the book, I want the collectible, I want the game, like I have Lord of the Rings, my shelves, but I you know, I want I have the Lego. Like, what are some of those fandoms that are really close to your heart? I mean, you probably mentioned some of them already. Star Wars, a whole bunch behind me. Andrew Givler: Yeah, y get the powers that be to do it. There you go. Jason: Like what are some of the IPs that I guess are really close to your heart? Andrew Givler: Star Wars was a massive one for me for a very long time. I think I read most of the Extended Universe when I was a kid. you know, everything from from Zahn to Stackpole and and everything in between. I I think I the the the when they threw out the Extended Universe and didn't use the really excellent parts of it, I kind of lost a lot of love for the franchise. unfortunately. you know, like my dream. Jason: Mm-hmm. Andrew Givler: My pipe dream is that somebody makes like a Disney Plus high budget adaptation of Michael Stackpole and Aaron Alston's Rogue Squadron series. Like, you know, I would I would be in the front row of the theater staring, like, give it to me, immediately. which, you know, what was it? Andor was very, very good. and enjoyed that tremendously for that regard. let's see, I was really big on supernatural for a long time. right. I I I come from an urban fantasy background in a lot of regards. So s that was a huge one. Let me think. What else? I don't have a lot of outside of like book fandoms, I think. I have a lot of like books. You know, I have like a really cool edition of The Name of the Wind, and like Dune and a bunch of that stuff. and my interest in games has always been like a little more competitive than it has been like fandom oriented. So like I was a big Halo guy, but I I barely ever played the Halo solo like in single player stuff. I was like in matchmaking trying to be the best. Jason: Excellent. Okay, okay, okay. Gotcha. Andrew Givler: And so, you know, I got a little bit of that type A in there somewhere. Jason: Okay. Okay. Andrew Givler: training card games. I used to be a big Yu-Gi-Oh player. I like play in tournaments and stuff like that. so so you they they sucked me into rift bound, but it wasn't hard. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Come here. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. let's see. I yeah, fandom wise, it's like tricky. I I think Star Wars was probably my biggest fandom for a very long time. and now I it I feel like more neutral about it. Jason: Okay, okay. I get this, yeah. Nice. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha. What I mean, you mentioned games like I are you are you mainly trading card or card gamer or any other like tabletops? Andrew Givler: No, I I have been out of the TCG space for like ten years. I I I really magic never quite did it for me. Yu-Gi-Oh! kinda went in directions of where it's fun. but then my friends all got into Riftbound and I was like, yeah, I guess I could dabble. And now here I am, just fully sucked in. It's not good. Yeah. But otherwise, yeah, a lot a lot of games, but you know, those are also my job. So a lot of that gaming is more directed towards content rather than like me playing games on my own. Jason: Okay, okay. There you are. Amazing. So I know you said there's not like a formal tour that you're on, but basically wherever you go, you're gonna do signings. are is that gonna be the plan for the fall for Bloody Sands as well? Or like or in the coming months, where can people find you? Do you know where you're gonna be if people want to come find and get something signed from you? Andrew Givler: Yeah, okay, so upcoming stuff's easier to answer first. I will be in Denver next week. I think the 10th, I'm doing a signing with Michael Chatfield and Halock Jacobson. that's at LitRPGon, but it's off campus, so it is attendable even if you don't have a litrpgon ticket. two weeks after, I will be doing a signing with Seth Ring in San Diego Comic-Con at the Mysterious Galaxy booth. Jason: Okay. Nice. Okay. Andrew Givler: a week after that, I will be doing a signing in Carmel, Indiana for during Gen Con. and then I will also be doing a signing I think like the first, I think it's September 1st, like a day before Dragon Con. and that will be with Michael Chatfield and Seth Ring. and then I think Matt Deniman's doing a signing at that same book store the day after, so we'll probably be there hanging out again. and I think those are the ones that I know now. Bloody Sands, I believe so. Jason: Nice. Andrew Givler: We're gonna find out. it you know, there's there's a lot of learning attached to this because also Trad tends to publish more slowly. and so do people wanna come back to a bookstore six months later to there's a new book, but like, you know, is that a once a year kind of thing for people? Is that a six months, you know? It depends. It every week, you know. and so I hope to. you know, I certainly want to whenever I am places take advantage and try to meet people who enjoy the books because it's super fun, fun to talk about. Jason: Mm. Every week. Andrew Givler: but it'll be an evolving plan as we go. Also, the better the books do, the more the publisher can lean in to help making them happen. So Coldwind has has really actually helped Iron Bound do well again. well again. I I think probably a better way to put this is that when Iron Bound came out, nobody knew who I was, right? In the like the greater writing space. Ironbound got a little bit of buzz and then Jason: Excellent. Okay, good. Mm. Andrew Givler: Coldwind getting you know, the the buzz that it has has convinced a lot of people who were like, I wait till book twos, which is like valid, to give it a shot. So it's it's lifted the whole series up in terms of how it's performing. which if book three does that again, that'd be awesome. You know, but it opens a lot of doors to do cool stuff like that. Jason: For sure, for sure. Dragon Steel Nexus, maybe this year. Okay. Andrew Givler: Yeah, I will be at Nexus. I don't have a signing scheduled yet. but I will be at Nexus. I think I'm unclear and I don't wanna promise this, but I think there's a chance Athon has a booth, and if they do, I will at least probably be at that booth at times. I don't know beyond that. Yeah. Jason: Sure. Cool. Nice. Nice nice. Were you there last year? Okay, I was Andrew Givler: No, this will my first one. the last two dragon steals, I've had friends get married during them. So I have I've I've had I yeah, two the first week of December weddings. Like guys, calm down. Jason: How inconvenient. Gee. Obviously not in the nerd space, otherwise they would know better. Andrew Givler: Actually one of them, they were like, that's crazy. I can't believe this is the same weekend. We'd totally go. And I was like, You guys are ruining my life right now. Jason: But happy marriage or whatever. Yeah, exactly. That's fun. Well, this is my year off of cons for personal reasons. So I'm so bummed that like literally all the cons I usually go to. Well, I'm usually at Comic Con. I'm usually there. So I'm just gonna like ignore all your posts and ignore all the places. No, I'm just kidding. Go see Andrew, go get a book, go get it signed, go say hi. guys, I cannot recommend. Andrew Givler: Yeah, yeah, fine, I'll come to your wedding. Ugh. Jason: I at least for right now, I cannot recommend Ironbound series and Coldwin enough. I'm sure I'll be singing the praises of the other the other ones eventually. Andrew, where c where else can people find you online? I know you've s mentioned it multiple times, but what are like kind of your main channels where p if people want to find you, interact with you, where can they do that online? Andrew Givler: Till he ruins it in book three! If you want to find me and interact with me about book stuff, Instagram and TikTok are probably the best places for that. my Instagram is sigils S-I-G-I-L-I-L-S, which is my YouTube channel, which is you can find that. It's more gaming content there. My TikTok is give reads, G-I-V-R-E-A-D-S. a little joke on my last name there. and that those two have most of my like book updates and that kind of stuff. otherwise, yeah, I do have a booktube channel, which I haven't touched like two years and everybody's mad at me about, but frankly, too busy writing books. Haven't had time. and so that's probably the best way to do it. My website, andrewgibler.com, also has a blog where I update like appearances and things like that. but I also post those on Instagram. So that's probably the best way to do it. Otherwise, if you want to find the books, they're all under my name, Andrew Givler, you can find them on Amazon or Well, the the self-published ones are probably better to get to amp from Amazon, but otherwise, you Ironbound and everything you can find at Barnes and Nobles or independent bookstores or or anywhere a book is sold. You should be to find them down and they're all on Audible as well. Jason: Awesome. Well, Andrew, thank you so much for taking the time to chat. Yeah, you bet. And I'm hoping this will not be the last time. So I would love to have you on for the next before the next book comes out. And yeah. Andrew Givler: Yeah, thanks for having me. Nah, we'll do it again. See ya in November then.