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#10 - Workplace Controversies · TWO GUYS IN TIES

0:06
SPEAKER_02: Hey, welcome back to Two Guys in Ties.
0:08
SPEAKER_02: Wow, it has been a week.
0:10
SPEAKER_02: How about you, Mitch?
0:11
SPEAKER_02: Has it been a week for you?
0:12
SPEAKER_02: It's been a week.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: I feel like the four-day work weeks are always longer than the five-day work weeks.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we just got off of Labor Day and uh I uh was gone that whole weekend and then flew out on Tuesday to Columbus, Ohio.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I've been in Columbus forever.
0:27
SPEAKER_02: Just flew back this afternoon, literally just got back like two hours ago.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: And uh, but boy, it was a crazy week.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: And I gotta tell you, it was really fun.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I saw in Columbus that I haven't seen a lot of lately?
0:38
SPEAKER_02: Ties.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, interesting.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: Guys and ties.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: We're staying at a great hotel downtown.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: We had a couple of meals at the hotel restaurant, which seemed to be a really central meeting place.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: It was a perfect part of downtown.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: By the way, never been to Columbus in my life.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: I am a fan.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: I like the people there.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: They got a ton of heart.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, they're really working hard to kind of move that city and make progress in a lot of areas.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: We hired a new gal there who's in our life sciences group.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: And so we went out, we met with a bunch of life sciences folks and some industry groups, industry organizations, and uh some venture capitalists, and it's vibrant, which is really cool.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: But I got to tell you, I I came downstairs a couple times, uh, went out to the restaurant a few times, guys and ties.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like the world's definitely getting more professional again.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's coming back.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's kind of neat.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: So anyway, but it was a week.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: I got a few things I want to share about that.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: But uh, what's going on in your world?
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, actually, I had a story I thought I'd want to share with some of the listeners because I think it could be relevant to people in their job search.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: But we've had a lot of activity, a lot of companies still hiring.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: I think we've gotten three offers this week alone, uh, which is a lot for us typically in one week.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: But I had an interesting situation happen at the one yard line with a candidate, and I thought I'd share this story for the listeners.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: But essentially what happened was uh candidate, you know, we when we talk to candidates before we even put them forward for a role, we ask, what are you looking for?
2:01
SPEAKER_00: What are you expecting financially?
2:02
SPEAKER_00: And they give us a number.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: So this candidate gave us a number, we put it in our notes, we put the candidate forward, and we get to an offer, and suddenly that number jumps up 10, 15 grand.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, based on this guy's level of experience, what he's asking for was probably market.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: He probably shot himself short before.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, and when we went back and talked to him about why did you do this, you know what his answer was was, you know, he's unemployed, he hasn't been working in six months.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to price myself out.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: So he came in low because he didn't want to price himself out, but then his number changed.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: Why did it change?
2:40
SPEAKER_00: Because that's really what he's worth in the market.
2:43
SPEAKER_02: So he came to that.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: It's not like he's got other people trying to hire him, and it's he had other opportunities around that that range.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: And granted, I think he's that 185 was his market rate.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he said 170.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: And now he's like, you know, that's kind of where I'm used to being, you know, I'm looking for the right role.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: That would be fair for me.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: And then it turns out like that is like the absolute bare minimum for what I would need.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: But to be candid, he's right.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we had other candidates we sent around 185, 190 that were not interviewed because they were too expensive.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: All right, so tell us how the story ended.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: I want to know.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he they ultimately raised the comp to 180 and he signed the offer.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh, good.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: It's just a good, good moral.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: The moral of the story for me is be honest, but also sometimes being honest hurts you in the hiring process because he's right.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: He may have not gotten looked at and ended up getting an offer for what he wanted, and it all worked out in the end.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: Do you think he was shooting low just to get in the process, get them excited?
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he shot low so he would be looked at.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he didn't want to be overlooked and not interviewed.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's interesting.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: Uh hey Reagan, how was your week?
3:42
SPEAKER_01: It was good.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:43
SPEAKER_02: Anything big going on in your world?
3:45
SPEAKER_01: No, you were traveling a lot, so that was nice.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: How come you and my wife say the same thing?
3:52
SPEAKER_02: What is up with that?
3:53
SPEAKER_02: She gets a lot of grandson time when I'm traveling, so I keep getting pictures of her and Tyler.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: Hey, what do you got there on the uh table there, Reagan?
4:01
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're talking about your new shirt?
4:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I want to I want to see that.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: That's really cool.
4:05
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
4:05
SPEAKER_02: So, Reagan, who did these?
4:07
SPEAKER_02: Was it you and Laura?
4:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: So they made these up.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: Mitch, you got yours?
4:11
SPEAKER_02: It's over there.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, are you gonna put it on?
4:13
SPEAKER_02: No.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: Two guys in Thai shirts.
4:16
SPEAKER_02: We've got swag.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: Someday we might sell the swag, but right now we're just gonna use it ourselves.
4:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, but thank you, Reagan.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: That was very nice of you and Laura to do.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's your favorite color.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: That was yeah, it actually isn't, but I wear this a lot.
4:28
SPEAKER_02: It's so weird.
4:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:29
SPEAKER_02: Blue is my favorite, as you can tell, blue is my favorite color.
4:32
SPEAKER_02: All right, I got a couple things I want to talk about.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: And I know we have an amazing topic today.
4:36
SPEAKER_02: It's about workplace violence, right?
4:39
SPEAKER_02: No, it's not.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: It's about controversial workplace topics.
4:43
SPEAKER_02: I know, which is why I uh uh always revert to violence.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: I don't mean to, but it does happen that way.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, no, uh, we're gonna talk about workplace controversy, but also I want to talk about something else.
4:54
SPEAKER_02: And I've seen this as we've hired a lot of folks and they've come on board, even though some of these folks have got years and years of managing director experience at other firms.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: They're great people.
5:05
SPEAKER_02: I do see when people start out, they have this thing called imposter syndrome.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: Now we've what we've talked about imposter syndrome, but it's really funny because I share with people you've been doing this for a long time.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: Why do you have this?
5:16
SPEAKER_02: And it's really about trying to make their market a new company.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: And the imposter syndrome sometimes isn't external.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: They don't feel it as much external in the world.
5:26
SPEAKER_02: They feel it as much more internal.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: So, for instance, when I'm there going to meetings with people, and I've done it now with people we've hired in Dallas, Houston, um, Colorado, uh now Ohio, New York, all over.
5:40
SPEAKER_02: I think it freaks them out a little bit when I'm there because that's when they haven't.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, just be yourself.
5:45
SPEAKER_02: This is just a Tuesday.
5:47
SPEAKER_02: You've done this for 10 years in some cases, right?
5:50
SPEAKER_02: You know what you're doing.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: It's kind of interesting.
5:51
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you've seen that.
5:52
SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's totally normal.
5:54
SPEAKER_00: I remember when I got into recruiting uh and I worked for Artemis.
5:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh at one point, the owner of the firm had me work from his office because he wanted to fast track me.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: And he felt like if I was making calls in his office, he could give me real-time feedback.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: And I was scared shitless.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: Every single call, I was panicking about how I sounded and what I think.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: And even though you'd been doing it for years.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: I had been doing it for probably eight months.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: And I was good.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: I was already raising the bar for the team and outperforming people who had been there for years.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: But being in the office is it's the exposure, I think, of having a mirror against you and wanting to impress the people above you.
6:30
SPEAKER_02: So one of the things I I told people, I'd be curious what advice you're giving.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: But I think when people start a new job, they have to realize that they're not going to know everything.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they're not going to be on the talk track for the company, and it's an opportunity to learn.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: One of the things I say is check what you know at the door, right?
6:47
SPEAKER_02: Be so open to hearing other perspectives because you might have a good way that works for you, but there might be a better way out there that works even better.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: Why don't you be open to hearing it?
6:58
SPEAKER_02: Right.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: And to me, that's a sign of somebody's coachability.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: When I talk to somebody and they're like, oh, that's an interesting idea.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: Let me um, let me think about that.
7:08
SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'll engage that idea in another week or two if I still haven't gotten any movement from this client.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: And I'm thinking to myself, why would you wait?
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:16
SPEAKER_02: Like I would never wait.
7:17
SPEAKER_02: I would do it.
7:17
SPEAKER_02: And I've been doing this 27 years and I see that it works.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: And more importantly, there's zero downside.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: But people start doing that.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, hey, check what you know at the door.
7:27
SPEAKER_02: Be open-minded to new ideas and try them.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: That's how you move your game up.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: To me, that's the opposite, though, of imposter syndrome.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: That's their ego coming in and saying, Well, I've done this, I know how to do this.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: So it's almost both ends of the coin.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: All right, should we dive in?
7:42
SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: All right, Reagan, what are you thinking?
7:44
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I have a list of topics here.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna read them off to you guys and then you can give your thoughts.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: Sound good?
7:51
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
7:52
SPEAKER_02: By the way, can I say something?
7:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:54
SPEAKER_02: About today?
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: Do you all know what today is?
7:57
SPEAKER_01: 9-11.
7:57
SPEAKER_02: 9-11, 25th anniversary of 9-11.
8:00
SPEAKER_02: I'm wearing this blue tie because a lot of the folks that were standing up there uh today, some of the dignitaries, were dressed like this.
8:07
SPEAKER_02: And I was inspired to wear this tie because they were all paying their respects to the people whose lives were tragically taken that day.
8:15
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's one of the things that that I think about often, whether it's 9-11 or, you know, just the other day there was that plane that overran the runway in in Miami and it took out a van of five people and they're all dead.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: You're just driving by an airport, you're on a street, and all of a sudden then you're gone.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: I think we need to put life in perspective and we need to say, hey, this has been a gift.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: None of us knows when it's gonna go.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: Let's enjoy it, let's play big.
8:40
SPEAKER_02: That's one of the things that's kind of my purpose is to help people play their biggest lives and not play with fear, but just go out there and and and be strong and know that hey, sometimes you're gonna win, sometimes you're gonna lose.
8:53
SPEAKER_02: Some of the most talented and successful people in the world have been fired from jobs.
8:58
SPEAKER_02: Isn't that crazy?
8:59
SPEAKER_02: Steve Jobs was.
9:00
SPEAKER_02: Steve Jobs got fired.
9:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Oprah got fired, Walt Disney got fired.
9:05
SPEAKER_02: These are true stories that really happened.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right?
9:07
SPEAKER_02: And look what they became.
9:09
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes that becomes a mark of of a pivot for people that moves them on to their greatest life and their true calling.
9:17
SPEAKER_02: So don't play small, don't play fearful, play big.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: And you know, remember the people in 9-11 that didn't have a chance.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: All right, sorry.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: Just wanted to No, that's well said.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna hop right into it.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: First one is remote work is making people worse at their jobs.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: I think it depends on the job, and it depends on the level of experience.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: I I think it depends on their experience.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: I think it depends on their experience too.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: We have some employees that I think have only ever worked remote, but have great work ethic.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, Alyssa in Chicago for us, phenomenal.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: Julia, she's also in Chicago.
9:58
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we've got a handful of people that are fantastic and have done a really nice job and just have great work ethic.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: And I know they have probably a balanced life and they're doing some things during work hours, maybe that, and I I tell them that.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: I promote that.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, live a live a balanced life.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: Go get a workout in if you've got time.
10:16
SPEAKER_02: I would, if I had time on a three o'clock in the afternoon to go out and and uh and get a workout in, and I'll back be back at my computer at five.
10:23
SPEAKER_02: One of our most productive people has a house in the Hamptons and she goes out there and plays golf during the week quite often, but she's back on from like seven till eleven every night on her computer.
10:35
SPEAKER_02: And she's one of our most successful search consultants.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: So I think if you are well structured and well organized, and the most important thing, you have work ethic, you can do it.
10:45
SPEAKER_02: The problem I see with this is some of the young people that don't have that experience.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: That's what I meant by experience.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think like all the people you named, even some of them are maybe more my stage in their career.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: They all grew up in an office.
11:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: They all had that structure to know what a perfect day looks like.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: And that's where I see, especially early career people needing it.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:09
SPEAKER_00: Especially ones that want to grow.
11:11
SPEAKER_02: Well, and I see the other missed opportunity is leadership growth, leadership opportunities.
11:16
SPEAKER_02: If you're remote, it's it's harder to be a leader.
11:19
SPEAKER_02: It's not impossible.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: You know, we're promoting our COO of Canada, be our COO of North America.
11:24
SPEAKER_02: She's up there.
11:24
SPEAKER_02: And as she does go into the office in Canada, but her bigger team is going to be the US, and she's going to be remote.
11:31
SPEAKER_02: Now, she'll come down here probably at least eight, nine times a year, but that's really a remote job.
11:36
SPEAKER_02: So I do think now, again, she's mature, she's, you know, been a leader before, she's already been an in-house leader.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: But for people that are going to be first-time leaders and not in the office, I think it's a struggle.
11:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I completely agree.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: And it depends on what your goals are, right?
11:51
SPEAKER_00: If you're looking for a job, that's fine.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: If you want to climb the ladder somewhere and you want to have a big career, most companies are switching to where you have to be by at an office.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we just had a client join one, uh, hire somebody, and they were very honest with the candidate.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: Hey, we really wanted someone that would relocate.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: We know you can't relocate for the next two years.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Come in one week out of the month.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but just know that if you want to grow, the director level team is all here.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: So you won't basically just saying if you don't move, you likely won't have growth opportunities.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm seeing that so many places.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna throw this out.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: You might disagree.
12:27
SPEAKER_02: In fact, Reagan, I'd love to hear your perspective too, as a fairly recent grad.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think if you're a recent grad and you have a choice between an in-office job and a remote job living in your dream area, take the in-office job.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: You have to build a strong foundation in your career.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: Um, one of our family friends, uh, their daughter just graduated and got a great job with a company she interned with last summer, and it's in Racine, Wisconsin.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: And it's not her dream place.
12:56
SPEAKER_02: She's a Southern Californian.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: But my advice to her mom when we talked about it was that's gonna be incredible for her because it's the headquarters of a multi, multi, multi-billion dollar company that's global.
13:09
SPEAKER_02: She's gonna learn a ton, get at least a couple years under her belt.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: And even if they would have allowed her to work remotely in New York or San Diego or somewhere else, it would have been a bad idea.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a bad idea.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: It's not a strong foundation.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there's exceptions to that, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, I think people should be in office earlier in their career.
13:29
SPEAKER_02: What do you think, Mitch?
13:30
SPEAKER_00: I completely agree.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: And and I see uh, yeah, I see a gap of the people who you see climb the ladder and and grow in their careers and the ones that really prioritize remote work is there's those opportunities are coming up less.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, we see candidates that will only consider a remote role.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: I see it all the time.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: And it makes me think about how many opportunities are missing that could put them in a bigger life.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it to me, I this is a bigger, bigger thing for me.
13:57
SPEAKER_02: I almost think that because remote didn't happen pre-COVID, right?
14:00
SPEAKER_02: People really knew now there was some level of remote, but not to the level now.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: It to me, the bigger fear is mediocrity in our economy, in our entire society.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: People are actually saying, I can have the career I want when I don't think they can because they're not gonna get the experience they would have gotten.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: And we as a society could become fairly mediocre.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: And I know there's a lot of people that are taking stands on this.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: Elon Musk is taking a stand, Jamie Diamond is taking a stand, other big time CEOs are saying, hey, you're in the office.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: This we're running a business.
14:31
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna teach you and we're gonna develop you, but you gotta play the play the game.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: So, Reagan, what are your thoughts on this?
14:37
SPEAKER_02: Are we a little too hardcore?
14:39
SPEAKER_01: No, I completely agree.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: I think it was harder for us in this generation to understand that because we were in school remote for part of our time, and when we graduated, a lot of the jobs were remote.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: So it was kind of like, why would we go in office if we can just do the same thing remote?
14:57
SPEAKER_01: But for career development and learning things and showing your face in office, even just talking with coworkers, it's it makes their job so much more fun, and I feel like you learn a lot more too.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, do you remember how many days a week were we in office when you started?
15:14
SPEAKER_01: I think two or three.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: I think we were two or three, and now we're four days.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:19
SPEAKER_02: And I don't think it's worse.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: I think it's better.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: I think so too.
15:23
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for saying that.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: I believe you fit 75.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: She's biased.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: No, I actually answer, Reagan.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: All right, what else what else you got about workplace controversy?
15:36
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, all companies should give unlimited PTO.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: Ooh, that's a good one.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: I like this one.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: And we're biased because we both have unlimited PTO companies, but uh I think why the heck not?
15:50
SPEAKER_00: It's less uh reporting and compliance for the company.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: Most people don't abuse it.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: If we gave three weeks of PTO, most of our employees probably wouldn't even use all of it based on the current PTO that they take.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: And I encourage our people to use it.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think it's attractive.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: We have so many candidates go from big companies to small that want to make that jump, but don't because companies are still stuck at two weeks PTO.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's crazy.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: I think so.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: Here's the thing it's interesting.
16:20
SPEAKER_02: I wonder if there's a middle ground because the idea of companies being stuck at two weeks for the first five years, and then you get three weeks maybe for the next five to ten.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's hard to get four weeks.
16:31
SPEAKER_02: It takes like 10, 15 plus years to get to a point where you get four weeks.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, some companies just give it a like the offer I just mentioned earlier, he got four weeks out of the gate.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: And how how much experience does he have?
16:41
SPEAKER_00: He's a senior manager.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:43
SPEAKER_02: So 10 years, 15 years work experience.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: So, but what I'm saying, and by the way, some companies would take that and say, Well, let's assume you just graduated college.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna give you two weeks.
16:53
SPEAKER_02: I've seen that before, too.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: We're like, well, you're just starting with our comp our company.
16:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, listen, nobody's going backwards.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: You can't have people go backwards.
17:01
SPEAKER_02: I have to advise companies that sometimes even on the senior executive level.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: It's crazy.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: Now that's less so.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna take a counterpoint.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: I don't think I like PTO as much as I used to, unlimited PTO.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: I think I like unlimited FTO, flexible time off.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: And the reason I want to say it that way is because it does put the work into the equation.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: You have to get your work done.
17:25
SPEAKER_02: I have my partner who runs Canada for us.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: He's a great, great leader.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: He says, I don't mind how much time you take, but I still need 52 weeks of work from you.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: If I'm paying you for 52 weeks, I need to get a return on my investment.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: Now I know that if you took two weeks, we could probably get there.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: We could get to 52 weeks.
17:44
SPEAKER_02: If you take three, we might be able to get there too.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: If you take four, you better be really organized, really efficient, and running hard those other 48 weeks.
17:54
SPEAKER_02: Now you want to take five, six, seven weeks, and I need 52 and you got to do it in 45.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: You better be a massive hustler.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: And what's happening, some people aren't, and they are taking advantage of it.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: And they're not getting the work done and they're not getting the ROI.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: And they're gonna have a rude awakening because I think what they're gonna do is set themselves up to be the first one to let go when times get tough.
18:17
SPEAKER_02: A so-and-so takes too much time.
18:19
SPEAKER_02: And managers these days, they don't want to be cops.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they don't want to be policing this.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: They want people to somewhat self-police.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: I think that's a failing of managers, honestly.
18:29
SPEAKER_02: I think we as managers need to step in and say, you're not delivering what we need.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: By the way, if you are delivering and you're killing it, I I work my ass off.
18:37
SPEAKER_02: I am traveling, Reagan.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: How often am I working?
18:40
SPEAKER_02: How often am I traveling?
18:41
SPEAKER_01: You're always working.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm always working, but I need time off.
18:45
SPEAKER_02: And I usually take at least minimum four weeks a year.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: And usually, if it's a good year, maybe even six.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: But I guarantee you I'm getting 52 weeks of work done, right?
18:54
SPEAKER_02: And if I don't have those reset moments, then I'm out of balance and then I'm I'm just a jerk, wouldn't you say, Reagan?
19:00
unknown: Yeah.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: I walk around, I am wound up.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: So I need those resets, but I pay it forward to the business.
19:08
SPEAKER_02: And I think you do too, Mitch.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think in our businesses are unique in that people get a lot of flexibility, especially if you're in sales, building a book of business.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: You create a lot of work-life harmony, which is something we talk about.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: So I feel like it is different.
19:21
SPEAKER_02: How often are we on the phone when we're on vacation?
19:24
SPEAKER_00: All the time.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: Reagan, helm me, when I was in Hawaii this summer, how many interviews did you set me up on?
19:28
SPEAKER_02: Like early in the morning.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: In Hawaii?
19:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: Remember, I'm getting up at like 5:30, I'm doing interviews.
19:33
SPEAKER_02: I knew of at least two, and I think I had a couple more conference calls too.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: No, I thought we completely shut your phone off.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: We didn't.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: You didn't know.
19:41
SPEAKER_02: I I I interviewed Sam, I interviewed Adam.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: Those were all in Hawaii.
19:45
unknown: Yeah.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: What was that trip where you completely shut off?
19:49
SPEAKER_02: Was it Europe somewhere?
19:51
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: There was some trip I did disconnect.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: I can't remember where it was.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, it it was probably two months ago.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: I don't remember.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: But it's it's interesting what you talked about because we give unlimited PTO, but I have two different kinds of time off.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: And my employees let me know what they need.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: One of it is full coverage.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: You're off, email out of office, you're leaving your computer at home.
20:12
SPEAKER_00: Totally okay.
20:13
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: The other is hey, I might call you if I need help, but I'll field most of the stuff.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm probably not doing active work, but I'm doing reactive work.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: Client emails, I'll email them back.
20:26
SPEAKER_02: You know what it sounds like you're talking about?
20:28
SPEAKER_02: Flexible time off.
20:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's kind of the same concept.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:31
SPEAKER_02: Reagan, let's move to FTO.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
20:33
SPEAKER_02: So, this concept of you're gonna get your work done, and what Mitch said, like sometimes, like let's say you came to me and said, Hey, I'm disconnecting, I need a week, I need we can make that work.
20:42
SPEAKER_02: But if you come to me and say, Hey, I want to do this other trip, and I'll get a little bit of stuff done while I'm gone, and I'll stay connected so that things don't fall through the tracks or cracks, but I don't want to work a full day.
20:53
SPEAKER_02: Could that work?
20:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I did that in New York.
20:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's right.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: You did that in New York.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you did a little bit of that in North Carolina when you came out with us too.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: I think you were working.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I think both work.
21:04
unknown: Yeah.
21:04
SPEAKER_02: All right, good question.
21:06
SPEAKER_02: Okay, now I'm fired up on this stuff.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: Time is flying by.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: We have about 10 minutes left.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: All right, let's go.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, if you can be replaced tomorrow, why be loyal to your company?
21:19
SPEAKER_02: If you can be replaced tomorrow, why be loyal?
21:22
SPEAKER_02: So I think if you can be replaced tomorrow, you probably haven't positioned yourself as a linchpin, right?
21:27
SPEAKER_00: You haven't made yourself irreplaceable.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: That's that's the thing I'd be looking for.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Is there's two ways to look at your employment me versus a company, or symbiotically, if I help the company grow, I'll grow.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: If I help my leadership team get what they want from me, I'll get what I want from them.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: You gotta be at the right company for that to work out, but if you're at the right company and it's uh it's an us model versus we me versus them, I feel like you can have their there the loyalty goes both ways.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: The problem is when you get into a company where you're one way loyalty, where you're
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Loyal and they're not, or vice versa.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, you're loyal and they're not.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: Right?
22:03
SPEAKER_00: The wrong company, that's what that environment looks like.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: It just feels like if you're really loyal to a company, you probably have created some level of um indispensability, wouldn't you think?
22:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't think so, because I think when you have employees, depends on the business, right?
22:20
SPEAKER_00: Legacy employees that have been with you forever, they might not be contributing the way they should.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: And um that's a good point, but they're loyal.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, but they're loyal.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: And that that can help in compared to someone who doesn't feel loyal, yeah, who isn't contributing.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: But I think the goal is to make yourself irreplaceable.
22:37
SPEAKER_02: You know what's interesting?
22:38
SPEAKER_02: Can I um can I vector off of this question a little bit, Reagan?
22:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:42
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna give me a little leeway here.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna give you my political answer so we have less than 10 minutes just to do that.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: Since I'm wearing the political time.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I believe, like we go through periods of time, we've been around 25 years, where, you know, we might have very little turnover for two, three years, and then for another year or two, we have more turnover.
23:01
SPEAKER_02: And we might have been hiring some younger people earlier in their career where they want to try some new things.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's the greatest thing in the world.
23:09
SPEAKER_02: I I worked for two of the top five banks in the country over a four-year period when I graduated college.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: Then I did a business on my own and I did it for three and a half years.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: Then I was a VP of sales for another company for two years.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: I was Mr.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: Two, three years and out because I want to try a lot of stuff.
23:24
SPEAKER_02: So I don't begrudge that at all.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: But what happens is you move through these seasons where sometimes you have turnover and it's a little bit higher.
23:32
SPEAKER_02: One of the things I will say, even though we have loyal people and we hate to see them go, um, which I think is a sign of how we feel about them, our best leaders look at this as an opportunity.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: They looked at their new job as an opportunity to move their career ahead, which I think was smart.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: We look at it as an opportunity to move that role ahead.
23:52
SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the I dinner with a bunch of different CEOs this whole week, right?
23:57
SPEAKER_02: So uh one night I was having dinner with the CEO and a CO of a company.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: It's a venture-backed company.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: It is killing it.
24:04
SPEAKER_02: They are growing really rapidly.
24:06
SPEAKER_02: The COO is sitting next to me.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: He's a younger guy, probably sub-40, about to have his third kid.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: And he says, Hey, what advice would you give for me as a leader?
24:16
SPEAKER_02: If you had to give me two or three pieces of advice, what would you do?
24:19
SPEAKER_02: And I said, You know what?
24:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm dealing with it right now.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: Number one, if a space opens up in your company, aim high, not low.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: Upgrade that position.
24:28
SPEAKER_02: Every chance you have, upgrade.
24:30
SPEAKER_02: Where I see it happen with our clients and they want to go replace somebody, they want to replace straight across.
24:36
SPEAKER_02: Take the opportunity to move more yardage, right?
24:41
SPEAKER_02: Go hire your Miles Garrett like the Rams did.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: Go out there, and the Rams are Super Bowl favorites.
24:46
SPEAKER_02: We'll see what happens.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: But you want to make that take that opportunity.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: You weren't gonna let go of that person.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: You like that person, but now that they've chosen to move on, upgrade the role.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: How's that for a Vector?
24:59
SPEAKER_02: Do you like that vector, Victor?
25:02
SPEAKER_02: Reagan?
25:03
SPEAKER_02: No, what do you think?
25:04
SPEAKER_02: You've seen it happen.
25:05
SPEAKER_02: Some of the people you're working with, our whole marketing department turned over in a year.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: Now our leader of the marketing department has been with us a decade.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: Twice.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: Twice.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: But this time a decade since she's been back, it's been almost a decade now.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: And she said, I'm gonna take this opportunity to upgrade my team.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: Her team is the best team we've ever had there.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
25:26
SPEAKER_02: We've seen it in our finance department too.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: So I'm I'm really proud of our leaders taking that opportunity.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: And I'm telling you, these are younger leaders that are teaching me something.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: I've been doing this a long time.
25:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm still learning.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
25:38
SPEAKER_02: Reagan, what else you got?
25:40
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I think we have time for one more.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: Um being friends with your boss is a bad idea.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: I think definitely not.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: I think uh I think there's a line, but that's more on the boss's side than the employee side.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: I think if you can build a personal relationship and connection to your leadership team where they have a personal invested interest in your success and you achieving the life and goals you want, what better way to build a career and a dream life?
26:10
SPEAKER_02: I think you're absolutely right.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: I listen, I'm going uh to Vegas to go to a football game this season with guys I work with.
26:18
SPEAKER_02: And uh in one case, one of the guys who worked for me for a decade, and we're pals.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: And I like it, I get energy from it, but I will I will put this one caveat in there.
26:29
SPEAKER_02: And this is one of the pieces of advice I gave to the COO.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: He's he's a future CEO for sure.
26:34
SPEAKER_02: This guy will be running a company.
26:36
SPEAKER_02: If not his own company, he'll be running another company.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: And one of the pieces of advice I gave him was do not mistake friendship for achievement of your goals.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: You have to do both.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: And the friendship is really an alternative, right?
26:50
SPEAKER_02: I want to be hanging out with people that give me energy.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: And when I hang out with people that give me energy, we invariably become friends, right?
26:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean, most of my friends are from work, and these are people I consider now my best friends.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: Many of them are coming to my daughter's wedding, your sister's wedding.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: So I think there is uh there's a line that's okay to cross.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: But I also believe that don't forget about why you're there.
27:14
SPEAKER_02: We're here to win games, we're here to achieve.
27:17
SPEAKER_02: And I think you're right, Mitch.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: I think it's the boss's job to do that.
27:20
SPEAKER_02: Make sure you hold that line.
27:22
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: Reagan, what do you think about that?
27:25
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're fairly new in this world.
27:28
SPEAKER_02: You also started as a friend.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is true.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: I think it's I think you should have some sort of relationship with your boss.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: I think it's just helpful to know them better, know where they want to be, and then also vice versa, of them knowing where you want to be and what you want for your life too.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: What do you think though, about if you get what so so you have a close relationship, you become friends.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: What about the line of achievement?
27:55
SPEAKER_02: How do you make sure that you continue to achieve and reach the goals that are set for you?
28:01
SPEAKER_02: And not cross, you know, friendship and achievement can sometimes blur lines.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think there just has to be a line.
28:08
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what I think there has to be both.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: I think you gotta do both, and I think it's up to the employee.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: It's really up to the boss to make sure that they hold the employee accountable and they say, hey, listen, we're friends, but I need this to to happen.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: You know, and we'll stay stay friends even if we're not working together.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: But I need this to happen because business is about achieving, it's about going out there and winning.
28:30
SPEAKER_02: It's not a social club, it's not a social club.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I learned that as you know, early years with my business, hiring friends that were people that were friends first and then trying to put the business later on.
28:39
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's a bad idea.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, remember that rule my dad taught me years ago?
28:43
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: Didn't I tell you this rule?
28:45
SPEAKER_02: Do you remember?
28:46
SPEAKER_00: Don't hire someone you can't fire.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you didn't do that.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: I didn't do that.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: No.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: By the way, I have been guilty of making that mistake too.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: But you know, it over time you learn and and you move on, you know.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: And you still have some friends now that that you work with, your sister.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: You better not fire her.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: Let's see.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: That's Reagan's best friend right there.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: I know.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: All right, Reagan.
29:09
SPEAKER_02: One more last thought.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: Closing thought.
29:11
SPEAKER_02: Come on.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: About everything.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: I think we should do a part two of this.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: You do?
29:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: All right.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: Workplace.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: What what what do you call this?
29:18
SPEAKER_02: Workplace controversy slash violence?
29:20
SPEAKER_00: Controversial topics in the workplace.
29:22
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: All right, let's see.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: Stay tuned for part two.
29:25
SPEAKER_02: All right.
29:25
SPEAKER_02: Thanks, everybody.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Till next time.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Yep.