Latest / The Bob Lefsetz Podcast / David Sedaris

Transcript

David Sedaris · The Bob Lefsetz Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: My guest today is David Sedaris. David, when we talked
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: about doing this, you said, oh, it could be eleven
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: o'clock or later. Are you a late night person?
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I am, well, especially because I'm in England right now,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: so there's a big time difference. So sometimes when I
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: have to do interviews, I'll do them like it. I
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: don't know, midnight, that's always a good time to me,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: you know, that's I don't know, still a reasonable hour,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: you know, on the West coast of the United States
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: or even on the East coast.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Well, if you don't have to do an interview, what
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: time would you go to sleep?
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Usually between two and three?
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: And what are you doing late at night?
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I leave? I usually leave at midnight and I walk
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: to the train station because with a headlamp on. I
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: live out in the country and there are any street
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: lights or anything like that. But it's a five mile
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: walk to the train station and back. So I usually
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: do that because there's not any traffic then and I
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: can clean the busy road, you know, pick up trash
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: on busy roads and not have to worry about traffic.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: And do you listen to anything on your phone or
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: are you in silence? What do you do?
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: I listen to audio books and sometimes I listen to podcasts,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: but mainly books.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: And how do you view the experience of audio books
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: as a writer yourself, as opposed to reading a printed book.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: I think the difference is a book comes into you go.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: You enter the world of a book, and an audiobook
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: enters your world. Right, So I can recall where I
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: was when I was listening to certain audiobooks, but I
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: can't recall where I was when I read a book,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: you know, Like I often don't think, oh, I remember
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I was lying on the sofa when I first read
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: that passage. But I can remember, Uh. You know there's
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: a like less you know, a novel by Andrew Greer,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: whan I remember the stretch of road I was cleaning
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: when I just really was just just convinced I was
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: listening to the best book ever. Uh. I like audiobooks
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: because you can do other things at the same time.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: You know, I have a I have shit to do.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Do you find that your mind drifts and you have
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: to rewind or you concentrate. No problem, if it's if.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: It's you know, if it's not a very compelling book,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: that'll happen. But uh, but I think it's you know,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: it's probably just like skimming, you know, it's the same thing.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: And how do you decide what to listen to?
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Gosh, Well, there's this writer named Alexander Heman, and I
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: read something by him years ago, and then a couple
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: of days ago, I thought, oh right, Alexander Heman. So
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: then I bought one of his audio books and just
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: loved it. And so now I'm listening to another one,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: and so I'll just kind of dig him for a while.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, So you're walking late at night? Are you also
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: walking after you wake up?
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: No? When I wake up, I just go to my
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: desk and work.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you'll only walk once a day?
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: No, I walk at midnight. I go out, now walk
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: five miles, and then at one o'clock I'll go out
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: and I'll walk you know, ten twelve miles.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Okay. How often do you have to replease your shoes?
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Well? The main issue, I mean more than that, my
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: toenails fall off a lot. Like I'll take my socks
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: off and I'll feel something hard in my sock and
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: it's always a toenail. They fall off like you wouldn't believe,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Like like autumn leaves, my toenails fall off because I
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: walk so much.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Well, what's your strategy there? How do you prevent them
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: from falling off? Is it about the sock?
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I don't shoe, I don't, I don't know. I don't
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: know what else I can do. I have, but it
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: doesn't worry me, Like it didn't hurt when they fall
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: off and new ones grow back, So I think it
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: really doesn't bother me in the least. I just am
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: mad because I wish i'd started collecting them years ago.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: How many do you have?
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: I'd have a jar fall by now. But you know
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: how that is. You don't start collecting something, and then
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I always feel it's like too late to start collecting,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: you know, like, oh, if I started collecting now, I
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: would just have like three toenails in my jar with
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: heart start, you know, ten years ago in vi a
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: jar full.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Well, I remember when my mother my father died. My
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: mother threw out everything you owned within a week. So
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: all these things you're collecting, what do you anticipate will
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: happen to them? Or are you leaving them to when
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: you die.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Well toenails would be an issue. But other things I collect,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: like well I collect. I have a really good collection
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: of model mushrooms.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, and I don't.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Know what will happen to my mushrooms when I die.
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: I mean it's a really nice collection, and they look
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: really good in my house here where I've got them.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: They just seem like they just you know, I'm in
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: England right now and it's a five hundred year old
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: house and there are beams everywhere, and the mushrooms looked
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: just like they just came up on their own. You know.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: It's not like having them in a in a sleek
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: modern setting, but they would they could work there as well.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Where's a good place to find model mushrooms?
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Gosh, Paris is a good place to find them. I
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: often find them when I'm traveling in other countries, Like
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: if you can find a like a kind of a
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: shop that sells natural history stuff, you know, like two
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: headed cow skulls and weird like there's a it was
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: a store I went to once that sold like wax
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: figures that they used to to show what different diseases
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: look like, you know, like a woman with horrible herbes
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: blisters on her lips. H You know, walk into a
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: store like that, there pretty much guaranteed they're gonna have
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: some mushrooms in there.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: So how many mushrooms do you own?
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: I only have, like, I don't know, I don't know
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: thirty mushrooms, but they're good ones. I discriminate, you know.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Sometimes people give me mushrooms and I say, that's great,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: but I don't keep it because it's not the standard
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: to which I'm.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: So what do you do? What do you do with
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: a substandard mushroom?
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: Give it away to somebody? When I go on tour,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I always have gifts for teenagers, and quite often it's
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: things like that. It's things people have given me and
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: then I say, oh, I've got something for you. And
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: then you know, they can go with you do with
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: it what they want, but I don't want them to.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm always so flattered that a teenager
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: would come to my show. I mean I was flattered
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: thirty years ago, but now I'm like their grandfather's age.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: So that's somebody going to hear someone their grandfather's age
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: read out loud. But they would just be poisoned to
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: a teenager but still they come with their parents sometimes
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: and I just always want to have something for them.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: I can really count on one hand the time I
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: haven't had something for a teenager.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, what if someone comes to your house and says,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: where's the mushroom I gave you?
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Most people wouldn't do that. But here's the thing. This
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: sounds bad. I have two I have six houses, so
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: I just say it's in another house. I say, Oh
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: it's in Paris, or oh it's at the beach, or
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: oh it's in North Carolina, or oh it's in London.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, you have six houses, are you viewing another one
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: to purchase or you're looking at downsize? Your six is
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: the right number?
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: Well, my boyfriend Hugh, he's the one who takes care
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: of everything, and it's always something. You know, A couple
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: of the houses are on the coast of North Carolina,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: and you know, a hurricane comes and tears the roof
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: off the house, you know, so you have to put
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: a new roof on. Or somebody needs the account and
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: needs to know how much interest our French checking account
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: earned last year, you know. So I would never do
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: a thing like that. I would just never answer that
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: kind of an email. I don't even open emails from
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: the account, right, I don't open any envelope that doesn't
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: look like fan mail. I'm useless that way. But my boyfriend, Hugh,
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: he takes care of that. So he sold something recently
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: and I thought, well, okay, I can't really complain. He's
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: the one who has to take care of it.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: So now, if you have six houses, houses need maintenance.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: There's issues with theft. Is there someone in every house
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: at all times, a caretaker, someone looking after it sometimes?
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: I mean there was a man we knew in London
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: named mister T and his wife kicked him out of
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: their house I don't know, thirty years ago, and he'd
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: been living in his car ever since. And so mister
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: T used to stay at our house in London for
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: months when we weren't there, he would stay there. We
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: told him to make himself at home, but he never slept.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: He brought a sleeping bag and slept on top of
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: the bed. And he uh only used one cop. Well,
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: you never used any pots and pants, just one cop.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: And then eventually there was nice mister Government found a
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: house for him, an apartment for him, uh, and he
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: would go on weekends. He had a friend who lived
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: in a trailer and didn't have any legs, So mister
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: T would carry this guy to the car and they
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: would go bird watching all week But mister T, everyone
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: needs someone like that. You know, he's a plumber as well.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: You know, he just operates out of his car. But
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: mister T was exactly the kind of person who Or
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: one time I was in Greece and I met this
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: woman and she was working in a tomato plant and
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: the museum of a tomato in the gift shop of
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: a tomato paste factory, right, and I'm.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Waiting to hear what they sell there at the gift
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: shop of the tomato Peasce factory.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Well, they had like big cans of tomato paste that
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: they turned into baskets. They had different labels, you know,
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: old labels from tomato paste. I actually bought a lot there.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: But there was this woman who worked there, and she
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: used to have her own TV show in Greece, and
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: then the economy tanked and then her English was perfect,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: and and I said, do you think you can get
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: a job in England with that interest you? And she said,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: I would love that. So she came and stayed in
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: our house for I don't know, four months when we
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: were away, so you know, it's it's And then we've
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: had some friends who just have had financial problems and
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: they've stayed in like in the apartment in Paris. You know,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: one person stayed there for two years. You know another
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: person stayed there for six months. So I don't know,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: that's part of the reason to have them, you know,
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: so that you could set somebody up.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: You know, Okay, you keep referencing you as your boyfriend.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Although I've been married once before. I've been with my
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: girlfriend for eighteen years and we're not married. Why don't
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: you marry you?
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be the kind of gay guy
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: who's like, this is my husband, Brad. I just don't
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: want to. I wanted gay marriage. I wanted gay marriage
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: to become legal, and then I wanted no gay person
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: to act on it. I thought that would have been
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: perfect for every one of them, to say, you know why,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: you'd take that marriage and shove it up your ass.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: That's what I wanted. So I just don't. I just
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: don't want to be married. I mean, I don't want to.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: I don't ever want to use the word my husband.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: You know, okay, from growing up, have you always been
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: kind of a contrary, Like if the mainstream is one thing,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: you're saying, no, I'm evaluating I'm the opposite.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: No, no, But I just I don't know. I did
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: feel that way about Marri. I know it's different for
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: young people today. I mean I never grew up thinking
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: that I would get married one day, Like it was
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: never a dream of mine to get married. But now
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: you meet young gay people and marriage has been legal
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: since they were you know, when they're late teens and
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: they're talking about kids. You know, I mean some in
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: my age, like growing up the way I did, you
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: could never get your hands on a child, you know, like,
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: no way you could get your hands on a child.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: That makes me sound like a betaphile, but there's no
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: way you could be allowed to adopt the child, or
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: you know, probably if your sister died and left you
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: her child, and once the authorities found out you were gay,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: they'd come and take it away. So it just wasn't
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: ever a part of my thing. Like I never dreamed
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: of getting married, and I never dreamed of having kid.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: I just I never Maybe if I were twenty, it
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: would be different, but no, I don't need it.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: So you're growing up in North Carolina. What was your
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: experience growing up being gay in that environment? I mean, now,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: having such fame and notoriety, it's a different game in
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: fifty years of gone by. But what was it like
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: back then?
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Well, there weren't any books in the library about it.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I don't mean in the school library. I mean, of
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: course they weren't in the school library, but they weren't
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: in a public library either. So I thought, I really
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: thought I was the only gay person in the world.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was nobody to talk to about it.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: I just thought I was the only one. And then,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: very ironically, I was at the library. My mother took
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: me to the library one Saturday because I had a
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: book report due, and I walked into the men's room
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: and there were two men having sex in the bathroom,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: and I thought, oh, it's not just me, there's those
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: two guys too. And I learned it at the live
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: which is what's just funny to me. But you know,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I'm fine. I mean, this is something I guess when
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I read a book, I would, you know, I would
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: relate to the characters because they were human and I
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: was human, right, now, I feel like so many people
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: they need a mirror, right. It has to be a
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: book where the character's gay, and the character's American and
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: the character lives in England. You know, people want to
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: they don't. They can't relate unless they're looking into a mirror, right,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: But I don't know. I kind of feel fortunate to
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: have come up in a time where again I could
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: relate to a book or a movie or anything, because
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: I'm human and they were human as well. There's something about,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: you know, like now everything's about inclusion. There's something about
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: that that almost embarrasses me. You know, Like I'm doing
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: this duo lingo to learn German, and the sentences are like,
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: you know, a man will say that's my husband over there,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: or my grandmother has a new girlfriend, or my aunt's
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: wife is a lawyer, and I guess that's supposed to
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: make me feel included and stuff. But I never felt unincluded.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: When I was in high school and I was studying Spanish,
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: you know, they didn't teach us to say I am
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: in the closet or Carlos is my type. But I
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: just figured if I wanted to make that sentence, they
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: gave me the building blocks and I could make them.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know it's a different world. Now. I'm
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: not saying you know now a kid, you know, you
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: didn't be really dumb to think you're the only gay
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: person in the world. You know, you have the evidence
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: on television and pretty much everywhere you turn, and that
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: you know there's something to be said for that. But
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying it didn't. It didn't destroy me to
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: not have that.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, you were in high school. How did you fit
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: in or not fit in? In high school? Were you
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: a member of the group, were you an outcast? What
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: did it look like?
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Oh? I think I was most like most kids, you know,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: you you're kind of lost and then you find your people.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: And I found mine in the tenth grade or eleventh
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: grade one in the drama club. You know, it never
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: occurred to me to do drama. And when I look back,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: every guy in the drama club was just as gay
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: as it could be. But you didn't know it, you know,
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: like because I still thought I was the only one.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: But but I don't, you know it was it was
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: really I just woke up when I found the drama club.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: I just I'm not a good actor, never was but
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: they were a really fun group of people, and I
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: just felt like I had a lot in common with them,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: and they were funny, and they didn't they didn't you know,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: we did obnoxious things like wear top hats to the airport,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: you know. I mean, I see kids like that now
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: and I think, oh my god, that's so obnoxious. But
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: at the same time I have to think, like, oh,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: you know, I hope they're having a good time. I
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: know them.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, when did you know you were gay?
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Come? I don't know, Like, there wasn't a word for it,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: but I just knew that I didn't fit in, you know,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: that something was wrong. I'm not wrong. Well, yeah, it
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: felt wrong to me. You know. I wasn't interested in sports.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: I didn't like being around boys. I preferred the company
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: of girls. I didn't I just I felt a difference
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: between me and boys. And again I didn't have a
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: name for it, but I figured that out by the
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: time I was like, I don't know, seven, but I wasn't,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: you know. And then when I was became like fourteen
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: or thirteen, you know, and then you start getting attracted
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: to people, and then you feel, you know, then you're
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: pretty sure of it. You know, when you when you're
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: I had a woman come up a while ago and
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: say she had an eight year old son, and she said,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: my eight year old is gay. And I thought, really,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: I mean that seems a little bit early to me,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: you know too. I mean maybe he felt different, but
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know that at eight years old, you are
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: physically you know, you don't get an erection. You're not
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: turned on by someone at the age of eight.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: So when did you know you want me to be
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: a writer?
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: I dropped out of college and then I was picking
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: apples in a little town in Oregon, and I was
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: by myself, and there was a library there, and I
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: just didn't have any friends or anything. So I started
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: going to the library and reading. And then I just
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: noticed how moved I was by what I read in books.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: And I was doing visual artwork, but I wasn't ever
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: really very good at it. I mean I was disciplined,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: but I wasn't good at it. And then I just
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: noticed again, books were, you know, just I would read
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: something in a book and I would memorize it, and
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: I would when then when I was at work in
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: the canning factory or out picking apples, I could turn
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: it over and over in my mind, and it's a
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: pleasure it would bring me to recite something to myself.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: And I started keeping a diary, and then I remember,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: and then I secretly thought, like, wow, it would be
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: great to be a writer. But I would look at
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: what I wrote and it sucked. And then I would think, well,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: of course it sucks. I just I just started six
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: months ago. Of course it's going to suck. And then
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: a year later I thought, well, I just started a
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: year ago, of course it's going to suck. And then
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: three years ago, I three years later, I thought, it
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: still sucks, you know. But you know that makes sense.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: So I never put a timer on it. You know,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I never said to myself, I need to publish a book.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: Why I'm twenty By the time I'm twenty seve and
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I'm giving up. It wasn't that. I just figured I
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: just work at it every day and very slowly I'd
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: get better. And I just completely kept it to myself
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: for seven years. I never showed anybody anything i'd written,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: because it sucked, you know. And then I went back
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: to college. I had dropped out, so I went back
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: to college and I took a writing class and started
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: writing more than a diary, you know, started writing short stories,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: and uh, and I chose the right place to go
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: to college because it was I went to the school
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: at the Art Institute of Chicago, and they didn't have
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: a writing program, but they had some you had, they
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: had some people teaching creative writing, and and there were
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: really good people, and they had so much to give,
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: and nobody really wanted it, you know, but I did.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: So they gave me all their attention and they gave
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: me all of their knowledge, like there was nobody else
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: asking for it, just me, and and it was really
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: the right It was just the right place for me.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Like I feel like if I had gone to the
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Iowa Writers Workshop, I would have sunk, you know, I
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: would have I wouldn't have been strong enough. And I
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: didn't I don't know that I wouldn't have gotten in
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: the first place, but I don't think I would have
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: been able to. This was a good environment for me
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: because there really wasn't any well, competition is not the
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: right word. It was like it was like I had
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: my own It was like I had my own private teachers,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: and they really responded to what I wrote.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: A writer is born were the taught.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know that you can teach writing. I had
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: a student I taught for a brief while at the
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Art School of the Art Institute. I was never qualified
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: to teach, but a teacher back down at the last minute.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: And so two years after I graduated, I was thirty,
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: I think my old teacher called me and said, there's
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: this creative writing class and there's two classes, and we
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: don't have anyone to teach. Will you come and do it?
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: And like I said, I wasn't qualified. You know, I
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: never went to graduate school. I don't know. I don't
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: really know how to fix my own I know how
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: to fix my own stuff, but I don't know how
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: to fix other people's. But I had one student, and
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: it was really clear that she was talented. And the
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: difference is that she read. She read a lot, and
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: she was disciplined, and so I could be her cheerleader
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: and I could suggest things for her to read, and
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: I could read everything she ever gave me and get
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: back to her as soon as I possibly could. That's
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: the best I could do. And anyway, her first book
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: came out a year and a half ago, and I've
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: never felt that. I never felt well, I guess I've
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: always felt proud of my sister Amy, you know, and
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: I felt proud of Hugh. But anyway, I felt so proud.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: It was such a it was such a wonderful feeling,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: you know, to to watch somebody come into her own
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: like that and create something that was so magnificent and
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: just I guess, I guess it was the only time
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: I'd ever mentored anybody. You know. Somebody came up to
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: me at a book signing once and said, will you be
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: my mentor? And I said, well, it doesn't really work
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: that way, you know. I mean, it's a beautiful thing
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: when it works out, but it has to be organic.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Let's go back to the Iowa Writers' School. A lot
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: of that is about adopting a literary style. They talk
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: about rewriting as opposed to writing. What's your view on
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: writing like that?
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: It just takes a while to find your style, you know.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you start off and you imitate
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: other people, and then there comes a point where you think,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: all right, I'm never going to be that person. But
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: what have I got right?
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: What what do.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: I have that nobody else has? Or stop trying to
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: be somebody or not, and stop being ashamed of what
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: you've got. I remember I was. I had asked my
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: students one time to write something about their lives, and everybody,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: well not the majority of the students wrote, you know,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: made it sound like they were raised by wolves, you know.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: And I realized they were ashamed of their lives. And
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: they were ashamed of their lives because they were middle
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: class and they grew up in the suburbs, and they
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: felt that their life was inherently uninteresting. And I thought, wow,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: that's really sad. You know. It used to be poor
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: people who were ashamed of their lives, you know, and
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: then it became wealthy people and middle class people. But
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: I thought, I thought, well, I didn't want to be like,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: there's nothing extraordinary about my life, but I I didn't
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: want to be ashamed of it, you know. I didn't
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: want to to feel like it. I mean, what an
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: awful feeling to just think that your life there's no value,
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: or that you have none of your stories are worth telling.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: But I again, I think that had to do with
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: just not putting a timer on things, and even because
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: I did find my voice eventually, but if I had
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: put a timer on things and said, well, if I don't,
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: you know, if I don't get something published by this age,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: then it's all over. You know. It takes some people
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: longer than others, you know, to not find out who
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: they are, but just allow themselves to be themselves.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: You know, are you ever even at this lead date?
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Like I saw you a few months ago, you were
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: talking about your relationship with your father. You're peening your
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: father somewhat negatively, and then you said, but you're alive
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: and he's dead. Are you ever self conscious? Are you
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: ever self conscious about about revealing information and how people
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: will judge you as a result thereof?
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: I usually feel that the more honest you can be,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: the more people will relate to you. Yeah, I mean,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: you can usually tell when someone's thinking it, when somebody's
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: faking like a h when somebody's oh, just kind of
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: spouting bullshit. You know, you can usually tell and if
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: somebody is being honest about something, even if it's not like,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: there's a way that somebody could get up there and
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: just be honest about something that's really pretty brutal or
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: something that even that I don't believe in, But there'd
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: be a way that maybe I could relate to it,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: maybe just because they're being honest about it, you know,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Like if I think about it, like if one of
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: those January sixth people right could tell me a story
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: about that day. But if they were, I don't know
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: if they were if they were honest about it, and
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: if they were, I don't know if there was some
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: way I could connect to them about it, right, I mean,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: I guess that's the thing. I like, we we live
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: in we're in the country right now. I'm in the countryside, right,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: I'm in West Sussex, and we have a pastor behind
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: our house, and there's a shepherd we know. That a
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: great sentence. There's a shepherd we know, and he was
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: looking for someone's place to put his rams, and so
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: we said, well, we have a pasture behind our house
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: and we have these rams who have been living in
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: our backyard. And rams are assholes, right. So I wanted
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: to write about the rams, but I wanted someone who's
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: never seen a ram to be able to relate to it, right.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: So that's when I sit down to write about it,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: I think, Okay, how can I approach this in a
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: way that somebody who's has no relationships with rams? Could connect.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: And I don't know. I wrote this essay. It's the
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: New Yorker just bought it. I'm going to read it
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: on tour next week and I'll see if it works.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: But I think I found a way that it could
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: everyone could. I don't know, yeh, connect with it?
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Okay. When you're walking lead at night? Is that when
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: your ideas come to you spontaneously? When do your ideas
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: come to you? And how do they come to you?
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Usually they usually come to me at my desk, you know,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I just get up and I go right to my desk.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: I don't like to write on my feet because then
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I sit at my desk and I'm
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: just kind of forcing something. But where I like for
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: it to just be organic and come out of I mean,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: I have a list of story ideas, and so I
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: sometimes I turn to that, but I don't want to
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: get ahead of myself. Right Like I was with my
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: friend Dawn in Montrose, Colorado, which is just a very flats,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: really hot.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: A little bit slow. I've been to Montrose, Colorado, which
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: of course you fly into if you want to go
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: to tell your ride, and it's south of Grand Junction.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: What would you doing in Montrose, Colorado.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: I had a show and tell your ride, but I
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: had to leave early the next morning. So I was
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: staying in Montrose at a hotel. It was like a
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: four minute walk from the airport, right. And the thing
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: is I found when you when you go on tour,
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: if you're staying like at a four Seasons, you know
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: you're not going to get a story out of it, right,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: But if you're staying at a hotel, well you can
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: walk to the airport. They're usually going to leave with
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: the story. So I did, but I put that on
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: my story list and was trying to think of a
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: way to h and then sometimes something happens, like I
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: was in Australia and something happened and our flight got
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: delayed and delayed and delayed, and I wrote the entire
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: essay right there on the airport, you know, the thing
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: that had happened the day before. I mean, it needed
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: to be rewritten like a dozen times, but I got
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: the first draft out usually, you know, and I'm like everybody,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: you know, every every now and then I think like, okay,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: that's it, there's nothing more. I reached the bottom of
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: the barrel, and that's it. But then I find when
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: I read something really good, all kinds of ideas come
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: to me. Not you know, It's like if I'm reading
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: a book about, you know, somebody with COVID. That doesn't
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: mean that I think, oh, I'll write about COVID too,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: But it can just make me look at the world
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: with fresh eyes. Again. That's what it does. It takes
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: my eyes out of my head, it washes them, and
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: it pops them back in and then for a brief time,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: everything looks new and interesting to me.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Can you be just as inspired staying home for a
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: month reading as you would be going on the road
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: and interacting with others for a month?
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, like the story I just wrote, the essay
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: I just wrote about the rams, you know, ah, yeah,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: very much.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, if you were to
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: just read, would you have enough ideas? Or is it
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: everyday life interacting with other elements, animate or inanimate that
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: inspire you.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: It's a combination of the two. You know, it's reading
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: and it's living. It's going out into the world and
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: having things happen. And again, it's not like massive things
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: happen to me. But I don't know, I just I
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: like to kind of make something out of nothing.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Or take the micro and expand it. But so when
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: you sit down every day, are you usually working on
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: something you started or are you starting something? What do
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: you do when you literally sit down?
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I sit down every morning, and first thing I
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: do is I write in my diary, and then I
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: turned to whatever it is and I'm working on. And
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: then sometimes, like yesterday, I had to make a hard
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: choice and I abandoned something. You know, I thought, well,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: maybe in a year I can come back to it
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: and get it to work, but I'm not. It just
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: felt like I'd already written it, you know, so I
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: turned to something else.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Is the process that you lay it all down quickly
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: and we write it or do you eke it out
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: sentenced by sentence? How does it come?
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Oh? I don't know. Like today I probably wrote three
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: pages on something I started, and then you know, I'll
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: expand on it tomorrow. I'm going to love to be
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: finished with it in a week, but I don't know
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: that that's gonna happen. It'll just come in its own time.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: It's hard to write things whole cloth when I'm on tour,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: Like I start a tour next week, so I'm going
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: to I don't know, forty two cities or something. But
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: I can rewrite when I'm traveling, so I have a
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: lot to rewrite.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, you have this great success. You were on the road.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: Many people who have household names success which you do have, say,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: oh no, it just happened to me. But most of
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: these people were driven. They needed it. So why are
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: you so successful? Being talented is not enough.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: No, But I was always on fire, you know, like
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: when I was doing visual art, it was the same thing.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: I was just on fire, had blinders on, nothing else.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: You know, everybody else is going to the party. I'm
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: staying home and working. I've just always been that way,
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Like I just a kind of a laser focus. And
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: also I'm you know, I have some obsessive compulsive stuff
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: going on, and so it was always very easy for
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: me to do the exact same thing at the exact
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: same time every day.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit more about the OCD. I
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: get that, But like, are you locking the door twenty times?
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Are your order?
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: It used to be? I mean I used to lock
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: the door twenty times, and then it when I was
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: a kid, it was just like really bad. But then
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: when I got older. You know, I'd written something about
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: it one time and I had said, how you know,
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: it seemed to get my life thing to get better
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: when I started smoking. And then someone called and said, no,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: that makes sense. You know that nicotine can can be
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: a way to self medicate for that kind of thing.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: But then I quit smoking, and I thought everyone everything
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: would come roaring back, but it didn't. Now I'm more
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: like I'm a prisoner of a Yeah, I'm a prisoner.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: Like I got a fit bit, you know, and so
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: that's why I go out after midnight. I forgot a
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: fit bit. So then I started walking between fifteen and
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: twenty miles a day when I'm in Sussex, right, so
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: I have to do that. Then I have to do
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: duo lingo. But it's not just I have to do it,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: like I have to be like in the top three.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: And so that's hours and hours and hours and hours
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: and hours that I have to do that. And I
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: have to do my own work, and then I have
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: to swim a certain distance every day and I have
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: to Uh, it's it's a lot on my little schedule,
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Like there really not enough hours in the day, and
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: I never know when something else is gonna pop up.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: One time it was feeding spiders. And I'm telling you
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: I fed spiders. This was in France, and we had
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: lots of spiders in our house, and I was feeding
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: spiders for hours every day, right and monitoring them.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: No, wait, a little bit more, a little slow, a
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: little more granular. So you see a spider in the house,
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: you think they're hungry. What's going on there?
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: There was a spider, a Taganaria gigantia, who lives in
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: They live in a horizontal sheet web.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: And how big a spider is that? And I think
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: I know what a horizontal web is, but tell me.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: The size of an unshelled peanut. It's a pretty big,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: black brown you know. Horizontal seat web, It's just a
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: flat web, right, with a little funnel that it goes
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: into that it lives in. And they can be pretty
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: big those. So it was in the corner. We had
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: a casement window. It was in France, so it was
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: an old casement window. So there was a there was
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: a it was built at the bottom of the window
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: so I couldn't open the window because I would destroy
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: the web. Right, So, and I heard a fly buzz
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: and then I heard it buzz differently, and I stood
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: up and I went over to the window and I
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: saw the had gotten a fly. It was dragging it
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: into its little home, right, And I thought, I want
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: to see that again. So I caught a fly in
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: a jar and then I shook the jar up so
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: the flylight would hit its head, you know, and get
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: knocked out. And then I poured it into a web,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: and then when it came to the spider came out
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: and took it right. And we had so many spiders
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: in our house, and then we had outbuildings, so it
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: was easy to feed forty spiders a day, right, so
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: all day long, I mean, and we kept our door
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: open so the house was for flies. So that wasn't
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: hard to do. But you know, flies can eat like
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, spiders can eat like once a week and
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: they're okay. But spiders got so fat, you know what
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: I mean. It just wasn't good for him. But I
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: just kept doing it. And then I went on tour,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: and of course I didn't have my spiders, and then
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: I went back to France and then it was winter
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: so we didn't have flies. And I don't know, there's
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: a flimsy kind of a spider that you don't want,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: you wouldn't think twice about, but it would devour all
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: the other spiders. So by the time I got home,
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: there was nothing left but the flimsy spiders. And the
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: next summer I did it all over again. And it
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: wasn't until I moved to England that I stopped with that.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: But I never know when something's going to come along.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: It's like a hobby, but it's just taken too far.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: But is it a compulsion more than a hobby.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a compulsion.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: So the compulsion cannot be broken by you. It has
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: to be like a very distinct thing, like you leave
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: town or something like that.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't. I can't like the duo lingo thing.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: It's just ridiculous.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Just a little bit. There's a chart you say being
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: in the top three.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: Explain that there's a competitive aspect to do a lingo,
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: which I didn't realize.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: It's a lot I told you told me in my
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: audience A little bit more about dual linger.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: It's a language learning app, right, So you choose what
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: language you want, and I started off with Japanese and
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: it will teach you the alphabet and then it will
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: give you a sentence in Japanese. You have to translate
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: right from a menu of words below, or it'll give
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: you sEH, It'll give you a sentence in English, and
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: then you have to construct it in Japanese translated into Japanese.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: And I had studied some Japanese before, but I'd never
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: really learned to read, so it was good for that.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: And then I branched out, and then I started doing
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: the German as well, right, And then I discovered one
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: day that there was there were leagues I just hadn't no, right,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: So there's like the Obsidian League and the Pearl League,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: and I would get these congratulations, Oh, you're in the
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Pearl League, and I thought, so that feels good. And
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: then the highest is the Diamond League. Right, so you
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: get these extra points on dual lingo and a normal
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: person might get, oh, I don't know, forty extra points
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: a day, and I'll be getting like four thousand extra
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: points a day. So it was like it was a
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: big part of my day. It's a huge part of
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: my day. And I can't even say that that It
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: wasn't even about learning anymore. It just became I've never
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: played a video game in my life. But that's I
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: think what it became was me was a video game.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Today when I walked to the village today, we live
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: on the edge of what's essentially Downton Abbey, and I
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: can there's this massive, massive tudor. It's not a castle,
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: it's just a pile, you know, It's just it's on
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: thousands of acres of land. And it's also a deer
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: park and there's right away in England. So I cut
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: across the grounds and this is the time of year
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: when the stags stand underneath trees and cough to attract
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: females like I never thought deer made any noise at all,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: but they it is cough. It is unspeakably beautiful and
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: it's fall and the temperature has changed and the air
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: feels different. And I'm leaving tomorrow to start my tour.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: And I walked across the param house twice today doing
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: dual lingo as I walked right doing it on my
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: iPad so I could rack up four thousand extra points.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: And I'm so mad at myself because I stopped at
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: one point. It's so beautiful that every day I notice
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: how beautiful it is. Every day I think what a
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: kind of a world is this that I get to
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: live amongst such beauty? Right? And I didn't do it
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: because I was doing this stupid duo lingo and I'm
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: competing against people I don't even know who they are.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: They're like twenty five of them from all over the world.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Everyone has a nickname, right, it doesn't matter at all? Right,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: And I don't. I can't. I can't. It's like a trap.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: I man, I can't get out of it. And Hughes said,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: has just stop doing it? But I can't.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, just for one second. You're in the competition with
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: duo lingo. But the main goal of duo lingo is
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: to learn the language. Right, have you learned the language?
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: Racking up all these extra points?
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: There's only well, see, the way to rack up the
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: extra points is to do these practice because you get
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: more points doing the practice thing. So, but I was
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: in Germany a week ago. I was there on a
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: book tour, and I talk to German all the time.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: I and people said, oh my god, I didn't know
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: you spoke German. And they said, oh my god, your
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: German is perfect. Now my German is not perfect. They
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: were just being nice, but and I would overhear people
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: talking and maybe I would understand one word out of
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: every twenty. But then, you know, so it's easy to
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: give up. But then you think, well, one word out
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: of every twenty is better than one word out of
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: every fifty or one word out of every hundred. You know,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: so keep at it and and you'll get better.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, So you're at home. Let's say one day it's
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: really raining, terrible weather, you're driven, you have to walk anyway.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, that rain, and that happens a
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: lot here. No, they didn't stop anything.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: What would it take for you not to go out
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: on your walk?
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: One night, I was out after midnight and the police
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: stopped me, and there was somebody who I don't understand
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: if it was somebody who ran away from home or
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: they were looking for the police. And there were helicopters overhead, right,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it was somebody who had wandered
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: away from their home or run away from home. They
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: wouldn't tell me, right, but they just said, you can't
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: be out here, and they put me in the police
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: car and drove me home. And the second they were gone,
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: I went out to get you in the other direction,
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: and I just thought, well, if I see the police
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: car coming, I'll just run into the woods. You know.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Let's say I was in your house and I locked
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: all the doors and I said, you cannot leave today.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: What would be going on inside your mind?
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: Uh? Well, how I would overpower you? Because like even
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: the pandemic, that didn't stop me, you know. But it
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: would have been different if I'd been in Paris, because
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: in France you had to have a document to go out.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: You had to and the police would check your documents.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I guess you downloaded it and you have to put
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: the time you leave and all that stuff. So that
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: would have been a hardship for me. But I would
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: have just left the country that that had been the thing,
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: and I would have gone to a place where they
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: didn't have They weren't quite so strict.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Well, I guess, are you tortured by this? It's one
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: thing to do it. It's another thing to say I
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: have to do it or I just won't feel right.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: No, un tortured, Yeah, no, it becomes It's it's like
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: I really admire people who have hobbies.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: You do know that there's therapy for this? Now? Yeah,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: if I said I could get you with a therapist
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: such that you would not be tortured. Is that something
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: you would be thumbs up or thumbs down about.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: I'd be thumbs down because I feel like the things
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: that I do are good things to do. Right, It's
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: good to walk, It's good to walk.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, all that rationalization is good. But the question is
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: to what degree are you tortured? To what degree does
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: it interfere with you living your regular life?
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm always I always think like I can handle this,
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: but see, then what happens is that I go on tour, right,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: and then on tour you don't have control. You know,
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: you're out of your You're out of your environment.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: So sometimes it'll happen that a plane will be delayed
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: or canceled, and then my agent will call and say
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: we've sent a car and a car is going to
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: take you seven hours to somewhere, right, And I'm like
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: seven hours. I can't get my steps in. If I'm
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: in a car for seven hours, right, what am I
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: going to do? So what I do in that situation
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: is I get I mean, so in case that should happen,
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: I would never leave my hotel in the morning with
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: no steps right, so I would have gotten up. If
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: it means getting up at five o'clock in the morning,
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: I'll get up at five o'clock the monay it means
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: getting about four o'clock in the morning, I get up
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: at four o'clock in the morning right, just on the
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: off chance that that might happen. And then one time
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: I was thrown into a car for eight hours and
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: I hadn't met the minimum right number of steps I need.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: And so I was signing this young woman's book and
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: I said, what are you going to do now? She said,
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: now nothing, I'm not doing anything. And I think she
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: thought I was going to ask her out to dinner.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: And I said, great, I'll give you twenty dollars to
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: go out and walk two miles. And I put my
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Apple watch on her and I gave her twenty dollars,
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: and I had her walk for me.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: Well, a little bit slower. Why does her walk work
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: because it's on your watch and therefore it's part of
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: the chart I gave him.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: I put my watch on her wrist, so and I
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: sent her out to walk for.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: I understand what you did, but you're saying it's more
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: about the number on your watch than what's going on
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: inside you as a human being.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: Well, no, because we have some French friends who are
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: staying right now with us, and they went to the
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: village and back today and when they left, I thought, fuck,
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: I should have given him my watch, you know, to wear,
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: because that would have been an extra six miles. But no,
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: that's different because they weren't six miles that I would
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: have earned, you know what I mean, Like, I'm in
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: my environment, I'll earn the miles, I'll earn the steps.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, Now, so somebody has to earn the miles. Generally speaking,
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be you. You want it to be you,
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: But if it's someone else, that would be okay.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: Because I have When I look at my watch, it
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: tells me that I have a perfect record for one thousand,
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: seven hundred and seventy nine days. Right, I've had a
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: perfect record on my Apple Watch. I cannot lose that
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: perfect record.
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: Just so I know how many steps is that?
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: Oh a set to I have to walk like ten
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: thousand steps a day, which is nothing. That's like depend
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: It's just like four and a half miles.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Right, Okay, let's get into it for a minute. I
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: had a fit bit, and the accuracy of the step
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: count on the fit bit was completely different from what
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: it was on the phone. I mean, there are certain
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: times I'll be hiking in the mountains and I know
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: the altitude difference and the phone does not register it,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: whereas the fit bit did. Are you just locked into
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: the equipment or do you ever think about, well, it's
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: this accurate.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: Well, for a long time I had a fit bit
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: and an Apple Watch, and I wore them both. But
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: then I thought I was too old to have two
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: things on my wrist, so I just have the Apple Watch.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: Now they were close enough, you know, I felt like
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: the two things were pretty close. I've never used my
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: phone to check my steps. I've never done that.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Well, you can look on her in the health app.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: I find it wildly inaccurate. So what about the swimming, Although.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: My record is I walked forty two miles in a day.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: You know, we are not young people by the standards
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: of human life. You walk that much, does your body hurt?
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah? It hurt for days afterwards. Forty two miles was like,
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: that's a really long walk. I started at midnight. I
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: did it with a friend of mine and we came
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: back at six in the morning, and we rested for
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: three hours, and we went out again, came home for lunch,
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: went out again, came home for dinner. Uh yeah, that
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: was a real accomplishment.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: Well, most sports industries, court and I've had plenty of
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: talk to the doctors, are from over use. So as
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: we sit here now, since you've been walking using the
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: same muscles, et cetera, how's your body right now?
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's pretty good. I mean, my poor boyfriend, Hugh,
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: he's got like, you know, sciatica, and you know, his
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: hip bothers him, and I just feel bad for him.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: I don't really have anything like that, you know, I
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: don't have anything that's that troubles me. And then he
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: had a pool put in and so then it's like,
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: you know, gonna have to swim.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: How many laps a day?
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, not that, you know, not that many laps, like,
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: you know, just it's a lap pool. But before I
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: was caught in this swimming thing and then that because
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: swim is really boring to me, And then I would
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: swim a mile every time I went to the pool,
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: and that's so boring to me. So now it's like
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: just a quarter of a mile. It's not that much,
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: but it's still something I have to do.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: And how much is this exercises about? We control body image.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: I eat a lot of food, Like I can eat
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: anybody under the table. I will eat as long as
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: there's food on the table. I will eat your food.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: I will eat the person next to you, I'll eat
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: their food. I'll say, are you going to finish that?
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: And so it's I just have to exercise a lot
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: if I'm going to continue to eat the way that
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: And were you always insatiable or eating well available?
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: And it's funny, my bro he eats the same way
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: I do, and it's shocking to watch him eat, you know,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: but we eat the same way. I don't know if
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: it was six kids and you're just always convinced there's
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: not going to be enough food and you have to
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: really you eat with your handguarding your plate, you know,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: corraling your plate, and you just shovel it in and
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: then you fight for seconds. And we weren't poor, you know,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: it was you know, let's say all the chicken was gone, well,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: there would still be stuff. You could make a sandwich
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: or you could you know, make yourself a pancake or something.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: It wasn't off limits, you know, the kitchen wasn't off
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: limits to you. But I don't know, am I other
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: people in my family don't eat that way, but just
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: my brother and me.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: And does it matter what kind of food it is.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: It could be junk food, it could be gourmet food,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: just as long as it's no I'm.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: Not a big I'm not a big junk food person,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: and I'm not a food snob. I mean, he was
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: a really good cook, uh but and I don't like it,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: you know. I don't want to come home at two
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: thirty in the morning after a walk, and I don't
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: want to sit there in front of the refrigerator and
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: eat cheese. You know. That doesn't make me feel good
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: about myself. I bought all these crazy outfits to wear
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: on tour, and they're really expensive, you know. And I
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: would just feel like such a loser if I was
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: too big to fit into him, you know. So that's
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of it right there. I gotta I have
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: to do this so I can fit into like a
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: backless floor length sport coach. Just crazy stuff.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: When did this clothing obsession begin?
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: I always when I started reading out Loud. I was
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: living in Chicago, and I would go to other people's readings,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: and you know, people would usually I wasn't the only
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: one on the bill. Maybe they'd be like three or
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: four people on the belt, and I would just notice
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: people would get up there and they would be wearing
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: you know, they would just looked like they were mowing
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: their lawn. And then thought, oh fuck, I have that
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: show to do tonight. But I always got dressed up
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: because just so the audience would know you made an effort,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: you know that you that if nothing else, you know,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: you're going to try something new, and maybe it wouldn't work,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: but you took it seriously enough to put a tie
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: on right, And and then it just got more abstract,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: you know, as the years passed, Like I always you know,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: I used to wear a jacket a tie, and then
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: a jacket and a tie, and then oh now, I
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: mean I just bought a jacket that doesn't have any arms.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: It's not a cape. It's just a jacket that doesn't
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: have any arms. We're just like wearing a bell. We
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: just want to find that come to Girlson. It's a
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: it's a Japanese designer Ray Kawakuba, who has a company
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: called Come to Girlson And it's like a plaid bell
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: right that I'm gonna wear on stage. And then I
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: also got for this tour. It's like a black sport
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: coat that's cut off at the bottom of the ribcage
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: with scissors. But then in the back it's like one
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: of those pillows that people use on lanes, you know,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: Tho's neck fellows is sewn into the back, so you
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: have a hump back and this abbreviated jacket with it,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: and all I do is think about what I'm going
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: to pair it with. You know.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know a musician goes on the road, he
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: literally brings a wardrobe trunk. How many outfits do you
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: bring on the road and how do you decide what
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: to bring and how do you carry them?
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: I just bring, you know, last year I started bringing
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: two suitcases, well a suitcase and then a Duffel bag.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: And you know, there's no turning back once you add
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: that second bag, there's no turning back. So now I'm
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: a two bag person. But I'm just gonna Usually I
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: just bring one sport coat to wear on stage, but
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: I'll just have two this time. But one doesn't have
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: any arms and the other one's cut off in the middle.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: They're only taking up as much room as well as
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: and then you know theaters usually have washes and dryers,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: you know, big theaters, right, So I don't need to
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: bring that many shirts, and maybe I'll bring, like I
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: don't know, three pairs of shoes, you know, a pair
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: of sneakers from when I go walking or go to
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: the fitness center. And then two pairs of a pair
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: of airport shoes and a pair of because sometimes you know,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: your luggage gets lost and you don't want to show
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: up at the theater looking like a slob, you know,
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: so you need that extra pair of shoes and you
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: need airport clothes, right.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, the musicians, the super successful ones, there is a
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: very thin elite that they'll locate in one town and
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: fly out for each gig. But most of the others,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: just one step down, have all given up flying to
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: be in the bus because the bus leaves when the
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: gig is over and it arrives, you're not waiting in
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: the airport, et cetera. Is that something you ever thought about?
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: Something they've talked to me about a boss, And but
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: The thing about a boss is, let's say you get
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: on the bus and then you go to the hotel
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: the next morning.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: That's what you do.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, I'd be willing to give
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: it a try for a while and see, you know,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: I'd give it an honest try. But what if you're
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: just going like four hours.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: Well, the nature of the bus is the bus is
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: got all your amenities and has space, so it leaves
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: when the gig is over. You don't burn all that time.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: You don't have to wear a schedule. So if you
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: were sleeping when you get to the destination, you continue
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: to sleep. If you're up, check into the hotel. Yeah,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: let me go one step willing to try it, let's
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: go one step further. You are you know you have
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: one of the best gigs of all time. Maybe you
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: travel with a microphone at most. Okay, and you ever
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: hire a plane fly private from gig to gig.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, one time I was doing a show
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: in Santa Barbara and I was flying out of Portland, Oregon,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: and the plane was delayed, delayed, delayed, then canceled. So
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: my agent called and said, I've gotten you a I
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: booked you a private plane, get your luggage back. You're
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: going next door to the airport. There's a And it
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: turns out that next door to every big airport right
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: there's it's called a clubhouse. Then there's no security. You
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: don't have to turn anything off, you don't have to
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: fasten your seat belt, you don't have to do anything
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: you don't want to do. And the first time I
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: flew private, I thought, why didn't I do this every day?
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: And then I found out it was ten thousand dollars
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: and I had to pay for it, And I said,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: how was that fair? You know, like the theater, if
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: I'd had to cancel the show, they would have to
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: refund all that money. And my agent's still getting a cut, right,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: so how is it that I have to pay the
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars? Anyway, we wounded up splitting it three ways,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: so every now and then that'll happen. You know that
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: I have to take a private plane, but I'd never
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: have asked for one, or I've never you know, it's
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: enough already to have people say, aren't you ashamed of
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: yourself for flying on airplanes? And I think, well, the
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: plane wouldn't be The plane is going to New York,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: whether I'm monitored or not. But a private plane that's
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: a little bit different because it's not going to New York.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: You know, it's not going to Cleveland, whether or not
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: you're on, if you're not honored, it's not going to Cleveland,
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: although you.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: Know are There are these new airlines like JSX in
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: the West, which hold like twenty to forty people. But
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: it's like flying private. I mean, you have to get there,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: but you only have to get there twenty minutes before.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: There's no security. Yeah, google it JSX, but they don't
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: fly absolutely everywhere you have to be going where they're flying.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: Wow JSX, Yeah, huh, I'll fuck it.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: And it can be mine, you know it can. At
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: some times I had to fly to Denver and they
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: fly to Bloomfield as opposed to da which is east
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: of Denver by a significant amount whatever, it ended up
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: being cheaper because it turns out if you rent a
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: car in the suburbs, it's actually cheaper than renting the
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: car at the airport.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: Oh, I never learned to drive.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: You never. Let's let's wait, let's go back just a
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: chapter before that. What do people not understand about the
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: rest of the world, you're a world traveler, you live
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: in the UK, have a house in Paris, et cetera.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: We have a very closed minded, ethnocentric population and they
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: hear socialism and they run away. What do people not
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: understand about life and the rest of the world.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, oh gosh, there's so much they don't understand, you know.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: Like one thing, Americans I think tend to feel like
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: like when it comes to it's an outdated term. But
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: like when I was in Germany in Italy last week
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: on book tours, every question was about political correctness, which
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: is an outdated term in the United States. Not sure
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: what it's been replaced by, but I know that it
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: feels outdated. Americans think that that the only ones in
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: the world who are have undergone a sea change in
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: terms of language and behaviors, and it's happening everywhere. You know,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: Americans believe that they have the best healthcare in the world,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: which is not even not even in the top ten.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: You know. I just always feel like everyone should just
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: get out more. You know. When I lived in Paris,
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: one time I flew back to New York and there
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: were these students on the plane and they kissed the
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: ground when they got off the plane, and I thought,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: because you couldn't get a big gulp what I mean, like,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: how how bad was France? You know? But it's true
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: you can't get a big gulp and carry it into
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: a store. People would be like, no, you can't do
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: that here. I just don't always interested like the free
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: items that so many people in America are concerned with,
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: you know, like I need to be free to bring
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: a gun to Starbucks, which is just not but here
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: you're free to send your kid to school and not
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: worry that your kid's going to get shot up, you know.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: So they're they're trade offs, right. There was an artarticle
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: in the New York Times a couple of days ago,
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: and it was about in Korea, if you're a senior citizen,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: you get to ride the subway for free, right, And
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: so it was people in Seoul riding the subway and
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: it was so delicious to read the comments, you know,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: and it was in the New York Times. So the
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: comments aren't like you're a fat, no you are, you know,
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: they're thoughtful comments. But everyone was the same thing, like
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: they couldn't imagine riding the subway for pleasure, and what
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: they saw a sparkling, clean subway. You know, nobody playing music, nobody,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: nobody's sleeping, nobody stretched out, nobody eating. Like the rest
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: of the world has a whole lot to recommend it,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: you know, really does. I just feel like it would
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: just do everybody some good to just get out and
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: just see what's going on in other places.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, for me, the more exotic the place, the more
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: I'm into it. I mean, England is great, but they
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: speak English. I once went on a business trip about
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: ten years ago to Colombia and everybody who was around
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: me they'd had a family member shot and killed. And
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: it was just a fascinating place. So where have been
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: the more fascinating places that you have been?
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: Law? India, Uh, Vietnam. I'm going to Pakistan in a
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: few months. That should be pretty interesting. Uh, Brazil was Uh, China.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm with you, like, you know, when you've
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: got uh, it's nice to have nothing to hold on
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: to and you have to look at the people around
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: you and just do what they do. And I'm always
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: surprised by that when I traveled with other people and
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: that they don't do that. And then I'd say, like,
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: do you not notice that nobody is standing side by
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: side on the escalator, like if you've not looked around
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: and noticed that. The first time I went to Tokyo,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: I got off the the Narita Express in the middle
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: of town and I lit a cigarette, and then I
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: looked around and I noticed nobody was smoking. So I
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: put the cigarette out, and I noticed there were no
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: cigarette butts on the street, and I thought, we'll just
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: put it in trash can, and I noticed there were
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: no trash cans, so I put it in the cuff
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: of my pants right and then threw it away when
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: I got to my hotel. But I love when you're
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: in a situation like that and you just don't know
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: the rules, and it just makes you super observant. It's
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: a gift to have to be observant like that.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: And where have you not been that you want to go?
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: I've been to Africa except for Northern Africa. But I
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: was on a plane one day and there was a
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: I was flying from Paris to Lisbon, and there was
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: a fellow in the window seat, and then an empty seat,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: and then me, and at one point the fellow in
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: the window seat put a plastic bag of euro coins
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: on the seat, the empty seat, And I said, is
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: that sixty eight dollars worth of euro change? And he said,
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: that is exactly sixty eight dollars worth of euro change.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: And he is a doctor, this guy, and he buys
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: change on the internet, right, buy let's say one hundred
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: dollars worth of change for ninety dollars, right. So he
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: buys change and then he goes on vacation with it.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: But the bill will come and help. It's like he
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: pays for a bill with twenty p and fifty p
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: a one pound coins, right, So it was just so
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: funny to me. Anyway, he is that turned out to
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: be a doctor, and he travels around the world and
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: he he does a lot of things for free, like
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: maxillo facial surgeons, you know, like if somebody is born
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: with and so he said, why don't you come with me?
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: He said, because I always wanted to go to Lagos, Nigeria.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: You can't really go there on vacation, you know what
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can't go on I don't want to
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: go on vacation to a place where they don't have
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: a word for vacation, you know. So but this way
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: I could go, and I could I don't know, hold
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: somebody down while he makes him a new nose or something,
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: you know. And I thought, oh, that'd be the perfect
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: way to go, because I'd like to. I'd like to.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, India was interesting to me, just the everybody
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: was super sweet. But I always wanted to go to
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: India and leave when I got thirsty, you know. But
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: and so's I stayed three days. But the thing is
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: when you stay for a shorter period of time, then
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: you just see, you just notice the thing. Anyone would notice,
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: you know, who was there. It would be like you'd
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: go to Paris and someone said, what Paris like their
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: dog shit everywhere. It's like, yeah, you know, if you
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: stay longer, you get beyond that. But I didn't stay
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: long enough to get beyond that in India. But there
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: was shocking to see just the juxtaposition of wealth and
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: extreme poverty.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: Where were you in India?
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: In Mumbai? No.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: I was in Mumbai for about a week, and you
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: saw the extreme poverty. But the other thing was I
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: was just stunned how educated the average person was. You
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: know that we would go for these meetings. These are
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: all people in the entertainment business. They all had graduate degrees.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: It was just, you know, much more than you would
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: see in the US, as they say, yeah, you don't
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: want to drink the water. The funniest thing though, I
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: was in a hotel. There's two. There's the main hotel
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: where they have the bombing, and they have an outpost
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: on the other end of town, which where I was standing,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: and I called up an uber and it was an
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: Uber X. It looked like a Fred Flintstone car. Like
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: the guy was using his feet together and there's a
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: gate for security. Whatever. This guy pulls up in this car.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: They give me a look like they're ready to eject
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: this guy. I didn't realize if you're in Mumbai, you
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: get the best Uber available, which is still like nothing.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: So you love a good hotel, we're a couple of
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: the great hotels you've been to.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, well, I just stated this. Four Seasons in
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: Tokyo that was amazing. Usually we stayed in an apartment there,
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: but the apartment was available. But this four Seasons had
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: a service where they would take you it was right
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: now to the Tokyo train station, like and they would
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: take you, walk you to Tokyo station and put you
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: on the Narrita Express, which I don't need them to
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: do that. I mean, I've taken it so many times.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: But if you'd never been to Japan before, it would
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: be really great, you know, because there's you have an
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: assigned seat on the train and assigned car, and if
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: you've never been before, it might be too confusing. I mean,
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: it would be confusing and you wouldn't be able to
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: find your h see. But it's a service they offer
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: that they take you there and put you on the train,
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: And I think what I like too is that you
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: just absolutely do not tip in Japan, you know, so
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: it was kind of nice to have that burden lifted.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: So you weren't always thinking, oh is that enough? Should I?
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: You know, should I have given more money? Should I?
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: Like I was in I had just shown Copenhagen and
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: I stayed at the oh gosh, what was the name
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: of it. It was like like everybody was waiting for
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: Deposh Mode was staying there, so there were people outside
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: waiting for them to come out, and the next day
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: there was like some big rap star staying there. It
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: was like it was almost like being first class on
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: an international flight, like like business is good enough, you know,
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: what I mean, like first class sometimes is like just
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: they didn't want to bother you. See, you wind up
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: having to ask for everything, and if you're a timid person,
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: it just, you know what I mean, you just think, oh,
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: just put me back in business class. And that hotel
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: was like that. Sometimes when it's so you know, so grand,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: you just feel well, uncomfortable. I suppose would be the word.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: I love the gosh I used to. I always loved
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: that built Moore in Santa Barbara, and oh yeah, it's
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: right on the beach. But there's some kind of labor
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: dispute or something and it's closed now.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: There was I haven't kept up with that. I know
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: there was a labor dispute.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: But it's just sitting there empty. Now. I've never found
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: my hotel in Los Angeles. I mean I go there
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: a lot, and I've stayed in a million places, but
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: I've never found.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, okay. So if I say you're going someplace, it
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: can go to the Four Seasons, and we know every
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: four Seasons is not physically identical, although they are very similar.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: Or I could say you can go to the one
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: off special hotel rated as well. But you're listening to
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: the travel agent. It's not like you're talking to five
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: people who went there. Which one are you going to choose?
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: Wait, my choices? Are you telling me to go somewhere?
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: No, you're going somewhere. You got to choose a hotel.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: It could be the Four Seasons, my known quantity.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or a uh. I'm probably gonna go with the
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: Four Seasons. I'm not proud of myself for saying that,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: but it's all about a pillow to me. You know
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: about a really soft pillow in the Four Seasons. I
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: know what the pillows and sheets are like, and they're
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 2: really it feels really good to be between those sheets
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: with your head on that pillow. I remember being with
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: my dad one time and we were driving from Illinois
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: to Tennessee and every place he stopped was like, oh,
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know, Like it was McDonald's and it was
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: everything was a chain, and I said, why are we
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: doing this? And he said, because yeah, I know what
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: you're gonna get. And then I remember because we passed
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: all these great places and he wouldn't stop at any
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: of them. So I hate being that way with you know,
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: to say, oh, I'll stay at the Four Seasons rather
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: than the one off hotel that we like. Do you
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: go to Portland, Oregon? Very often?
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: No? I've been there, but not often.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, because I used to stay at the Heathmen, and
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: then someone said, oh, you have to stay at the Nines. Right,
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: that's where the basketball players stay. But the Nines is
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: used to be a department store. So unless you have
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: one of the windows facing the street, you're in an
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: interior courtyards. You know, you look out the window and
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: you see the restaurant. You know. I can't stand that
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: kind of a thing.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: No, No, it's like that big hotel in Nashville.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: Well, I like the Hermitage in Nashville.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but Andrew the one convention hotel where everything looks
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: in on a courtyard. It's very very weird. But whatever
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: they do.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: Well, see, I like the Hermitage. And then they opened
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: a four seat Seasons in Nashville. And then I think, well,
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be disloyal to the Hermitage. And
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: the Hermitage has really nice sheets, you know, so I
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: think that's the situation where I would remain loyal to them. Right.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: But in Portland, the Heathman then got sold and we
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: just went right down the tubes the Nines. But then
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: they opened a Ritz Carlton, and I can't wait to
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: stay there because I don't feel a need to be
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: loyal to those other places, because they both let me down.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: I'd hate to be elitist like this. But isn't the
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: four seasons more dependable than the rich Carleton?
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah? It is right, But I always stay at the
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: Ritz Carlton in Chicago always, and I'm never not interested
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: in trying any other hotel there. I mean I have
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: before I found them. It's Carlton, but I think because
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: they can keep staff, you know, So I don't know,
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: I just really I just like everything about it, and
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: I like the restaurant, and I like the and I
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: know that sounds you know, I know what that sounds like.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: But I'm never the one paining for my room. If
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: someone else is paying for your room, why don't you
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: get the best room in twn?
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: Exactly?
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: And then if I'm going to forty two cities in
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: forty four days, I can do that. I can go
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: to forty two cities in forty four days. But being
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: in a nice hotel just makes it easier.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: You know, you got to ask for it. Otherwise they'll
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: give you. You learn that over time. It's built in
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: if you ask, and it makes such a difference. It's
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: really cool.
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: One thing I learned a long time ago on a
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: book tour, right, Because sometimes you go on a book
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: tour and the publicist will say the bookstore recommended this hotel.
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: I'm like, no, now, new, new, new.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: Never.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: They make it sound like the like, what I need
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: is something within walking distance. I said, no, I don't
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: want walking distance. I want a nice hotel.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole I was in Toronto last week, the
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: same thing you wanted. First of all, Toronto is not
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: that big. They put me in a hotel. God, worst
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: hotel I stayedd in years. But uh, if you're in
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: the hotel, will you venture out for food or you
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: a room service kind of guy.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: I don't like room service because it's your room, but
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: then somebody comes into it, and then it they violated
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: your space, even though and it's crazy to say that
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: because it's not really yours, but it just feels like. So.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: I usually eat dinner while I signed books.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: Is that part of your contract? Part of your deal?
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: They serve your dinner?
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: Well, otherwise, by the time I get back to the hotel.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: It's midnight or one, and it's going to take an
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: hour for the food to come. And then when I'm
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: on tour, I just go back to the room and
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: go right to bed. So I eat did it while
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: I signed books and they bring me menus and I
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: choose something. I'm not a big you know, I'm not
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: a snob about food, but I can't be anything I
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: eat with my hands because I have just signed books.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you're legendarily will stay there until the last
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: person is there, and you talk to those people. If
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: you're talking for hours a night to the guests, be
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: I know that you want people to tell you jokes,
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: et cetera. How many times do you have an A
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: level experience talking to all those people?
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: If I'm lucky, I'm lucky twice a week. When I
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: say a level, I mean like they just told me
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: a story and it's like unbelievable. And I don't mean
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: they were saving it up to tell me, right, I
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: mean we got to talking and then I learned something
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: that's like wow, you know that just blows my mind.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: Tell me a couple of those.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: A woman she said, oh, you have the same My
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: father was just like yours. She said, he just never
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: liked me. And when she was young, she was sitting
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: on a fence and there was a German shepherd on
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: the other side of it, and it came and it
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: bit her hand and it bit through her hand right, so,
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: and her father said, you know, this is all your
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: fault and took her to the hospital and was yelling
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: at her the whole time. And then he said, you know,
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: I'm going back to that house. And she thought, oh,
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: that's going to go and cause some real trouble. Her
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: father went and bought one of the puppies. It turned
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: out the dog that bit her had puppies. He bought
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: one of the puppies and brought it home, so the
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: girl had to raise it. Isn't that isn't that like
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: that's a level story. That's that's really good.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah, okay, do you do this to get the
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: love of your father that you didn't get?
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: Uh? Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think everybody
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: who maybe not everybody, but I mean I think usually
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: people who perform or whatever are trying to fill some hole,
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: you know, and it's maybe it's a different hole for everybody.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: But.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know. When I was young, I just wanted
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: to I wanted to walk into a room and have
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: people say that damn and just I was just going
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: to die if that didn't happen, you know, I'm just
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: gonna die if I didn't. Then when I was in school,
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 2: I part school, I would I would just think, like,
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: give me a sign, Like somebody in this room is
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: going to make it. Just give me a sign, you know,
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: like let me know who it is. And I think,
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: like most people. I remember there was this guy when
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: I lived in Chicago, when he was really he was
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: a boy. He was an alcoholic, you know, go to
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: a do a reading and then afterwards punch somebody in
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: the face and then be found passed out on the
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: street the next day. And he was super good looking.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, Oh, he's going to be famous,
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: And then I thought, why it's just said he's his
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: writing's not good. He's just good looking and he looks
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: good passed out, you know. So I think we all
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: tend to put our bets on that person. You know,
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: we're gonna we're gonna put our money on you know,
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: really super good looking person or a super popular person
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: or but it's not always that person, you know. Uh,
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: And I remember thinking like, well, then it could be me.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: If it's not always that person, it can be me,
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: you know. And you know it's just a midget celebrity.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: You know, it's not an everyone in the world knows
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: who I am. But enough I just have enough people
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: know who I am to fill a theater. I'm happy, okay,
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: And again it could be more. You know, I'm a publisher.
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 2: What we say, we need to take this to the
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: next level, and I would say, no, we don't. Let's
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: say I have a really good audience, and one of
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 2: the things they like about me is that I've never
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: treated them like they're not good enough, you know, like, oh,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: you're a good starter, audience, but I can do better
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: than you. I can't do better than them, I really can't.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: And I don't know that those other people would be
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: loyal the way that these people are.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: However, the nature of being an artist is you always
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: want your work to reach more people. Now, live is
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: one thing, in book is another. But let's just talk
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: about the book side. Do you have a desire always
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 1: to reach a larger populace?
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: Uh? Well, I think my books except for the first
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: book and then a book of fiction that I wrote,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: my first and second book, and a book of fiction
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: I wrote. So ten of my books have been number
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: one on the New York Times bestseller list, right, so
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: that doesn't you know, me doesn't get better than that. Now,
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: if a book didn't reach number one, I'd be pretty meserable. Now,
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: I figure when I talk about a bigger audience, I
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: mean it's hard because well, there's an audience that pays
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 2: for stuff, and then there's an audience, do you know
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: what I mean? And now paying for something's a choice, right,
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 2: you feel benevolent if you paid for something, Right, you're
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 2: the big man because you paid two dollars for a
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: song instead of just getting it for free. Right. And
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 2: it's easy to get my books for free. And now
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: there's some kind of a national library where you can
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: get the audio books for free, you know. So really
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 2: the only so if you look at book sales, right,
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: those are down, but they're not down, I don't know
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: because fewer people are reading my books. It's just fewer
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: people are paying for my books, right, Yeah, And that's
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: like that, It's like that for everybody now.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: And where do you stand on the digital versus print divide.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: Uh, I don't I understand that a lot of people.
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: I'd like, I'm not a person who needs to hold
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: onto books, you know, So I get books. I buy
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 2: digital books, you know, every now and then. I mean,
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: if a friend has a book out, I buy the audiobook,
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: I buy the physical book, and usually I buy the
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: digital book as well, because if I want to quote,
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: you know, quote long passages, that's easy to do with
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 2: that with the digital book, and then email little passages
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: to yourself. I mean, I'll go all out, you know,
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: if it's uh God, I want that person to have sales.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 2: I want those sales to register. I want I want
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: success for that person.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: You're a very competitive person, though you have a unique act.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: Who is in your league? I know you're suey generous,
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: but when you think about people who read live, do
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: you say I'm the bests or anybody else to say, well,
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: that person's competition.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know who else does it really well? Neil
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 2: Neil Gaiman, I think. I mean, I have a lecture agent,
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: and he has other clients, you know, but I don't
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: think they work. They don't work like I do. They
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 2: don't go to one hundred cities a year. Now, sometimes
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 2: they don't go to one hundred cities a year because
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: you know, Zadi Smith could go to one hundred cities
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: a year, but she doesn't want to. She's got a family,
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 2: she doesn't want to leave them. She doesn'tay it. You know,
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who don't do it
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: because they don't enjoy it. I enjoy it, and uh
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: one Garrison Keeler. He I mean he would have his show,
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: but also he would go out and just read and
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: recite things from you know, recite poetry and read things
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: from books. But I don't really know who else does it? Really?
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, who goes on a reading tour?
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: I don't. There is nobody else. And you have to
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: be credited for building this unique business, both the business
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: itself and the art upon which it's based. But what
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: we've established here is there's a gamification in your life
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: and there's a ladder. Now, maybe the fact that this
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: is separate works in you say, I'm unique if you
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: want what I'm delivered and you can only get it
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: from me, and I have a status, But it's always
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: in the overall sphere. I mean, you've established with duo
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: lingo and all these other things. Where you are on
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: the ladder, where you are in the landscape is very
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: important to you.
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: I guess it is. I mean, I don't feel competitive
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: with other writers. I don't feel competitive, like, no, I don't.
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: I feel like I celebrate them because I think my
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 2: boyfriend Hugh, his French is perfect. Right, So if someone
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: speaks lousy French, Hugh says, no, their French is good,
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: because he's confident enough to feel that about people, you know.
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: So I don't feel I don't feel what's the word,
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: uncomfident about what I have. I don't feel like it's threatened.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: I don't feel like I mean, I feel like I'm
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 2: in a pretty good place with it. And so that
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: allows me, I think, to feel generous towards my fellow writers.
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: I I don't feel like I I don't know. I know,
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: I don't feel competitive, I guess because what we're doing
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 2: is so different. And then also it's not like if
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: you look at the best seller list, it's like a
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: little lot of really shitty books on the bestself, you
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: know what I mean. So it doesn't mean that my
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: book is good, right if it's number one, And if
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: I look at what's around me, like that's really you
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like Tucker Carlson's number two. So
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: it's not like it's rewarding, wonderful writing. So it doesn't
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: It's just a sales that's just about sales. I'm not.
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 3: I but does it make sense because I said Sam,
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 3: I mean I'm I mean, I'm driven.
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the same as competitive.
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: Well, you're definitely driven. I mean, I don't need to
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: psychoanalyze you. I'm not a professional anyway, but you do
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 1: have the situation with dual lingo for let's go back
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: the other way. People who are don't have your level
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: of success have no idea how hard it is to
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: be that successful. They have no idea of the drive,
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 1: They have no idea of the constant focus and what
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: the sacrifices are. So the people who reach an iconic level,
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: which you have, okay, there is something inside them that
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: made them iconic. They may be talented enough to be iconic,
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: but there was something inside as you say, you mean
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: you said it. He let somebody talk long enough. You
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: wanted to be the person to say, oh that's little
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: David over here, Yeah, we'd come. He play he's the guy.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: And if you didn't have that, I think, as you said,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: you said, if your book wasn't number one, you'd be
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: greatly disappointed. Where someone could call you up and say, oh, well,
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: this week, this politician put out a book. They only
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: sold ten thousand, and they gave away a certain number
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: for free. You would say, no, it has to be
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: number one, not because of any honey, I'm gonna make
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: no one's going to give me an award or whatever.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: It's an internal thing, and I would think if it
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: wasn't number one, as you said, you go into a tailspin.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know how long that tailspin lasts two days,
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: two months, whatever, and you're going to say, fuck this,
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: I'm going to show him next time.
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: Well, because everybody's waiting, you know, nothing lasts forever, you know,
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: so I'm always waiting to get to the theater and they'll
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: be like, oh, we had to cancel the show. You know,
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: well the only twenty tickets sold. I mean, it's going
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: to happen, and I'm just always waiting for it, right,
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: But I don't want it to be my fault. I mean,
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: it could be my fault because people are tired of me.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: But I don't want it to be my fault because
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: it was lazy, you know what I mean, I don't
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 2: want it to be my fault movement. I got out
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: there and thought, like, I'll just read something old or
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, you know, it's just it's just a kipsie.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 2: It doesn't really mean any difference. I don't ever, I
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: don't ever, I don't know. I read an interview with
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 2: Tony Bennett or it was a Terry Gross interviewed Tony Bennett, right,
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: and it was so beautiful to hear him talk about
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: his audience and just talk about uh, just the gratitude
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: and respect that he had. You know, it was a
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 2: really I'm going to say that's old fashioned thing, but
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think it is. I mean, I
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: know that there are acts who will get up there
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 2: and just if they're contracted for forty minutes, they will
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: only do forty minutes and not one second later. And
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: I know there are people who show up at the
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 2: theater and you know, they watch basketball games in the hotel,
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: you know, in the backstage while the audience waits an hour,
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: two hours, you know, but you know, I'm sure Bonnie
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: Rait gives everything she's got to be. I mean, there's
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: plenty of plenty of people out there who.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: Just well, let's go the other extreme, because you're talking
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: about the person, the person who's phoning it in. Then
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: we have people like Bruce Springsteen. When I say about
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen, I have no problem with Bruce Springsteen, I
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: just hate his audience. These people become prisoners of the audience,
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: like he split up from the Eastreet Band. This is
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: thirty years ago now, and everybody got all this negative blowback.
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: If Bruce Springsteen were to come out and play for
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: an hour and a half, people would go say, well,
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: you know, you're letting us down. He was charging one
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: hundred dollars and people said that was too much, So
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: you can ultimately, you know, this is an interesting thing.
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: This is we're talking about musicians. Neil Young has survived
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: by constantly decimating his audience, saying I'm not going to
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: give you what you're looking for. Okay. You know you're
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: different in terms of writing because most writers don't have
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: this profile. Zadie Smith has a new book, but White
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: Teeth was the first book huge footprint in America. Now.
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 1: Zadie Smith is from the UK, but in America your
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: level of reach is probably three or four times that
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: of Zadie Smith. It's a whole completely different league. As
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: I say, you are an entertainer in addition to being
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 1: a writer, and that makes all the You know, this
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: is the opposite of what's his name, Pinchon. You don't
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 1: know where he lives and he's just ekeing out a book.
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 1: You are very accessible. You are working it even though
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: you're not singing songs. You're doing something traditional that many
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 1: people do live, which makes it both fascinating and I'm
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: sure you feeling you're walking that tightrope. You can't say, well,
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: this person does it. Their audience is steady. That person
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: ever started. Oh, in Cleveland, business is pretty good. But
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 1: every time you go out, it's just you. The nature
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: of writing is private. But let me just put it
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: another way, and you mentioned it going to Germany next week.
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: To what degree is the audience in your mind when
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 1: you write?
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 2: Uh? Very much. I mean I'm thinking, I'm thinking when
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: I'm writing something, I think, oh, that's been a long contince.
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 2: I've had any dialogue that's going to be boring to
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: an audience, you know, or gosh, that's a lot of
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: information right there. I should break that up into smaller
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: portions because that's going to be boring to an audience.
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 2: Or oh, I could do this is my voice when
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: I read this out loud? Or that'll be fun. It
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 2: would be more fun to do it, then I should.
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 2: What if I whispered that? So I think about it
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 2: a lot. I'm going to think about the performative aspect
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: Well what about the reverse? You say, this is what
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 1: I want to do, but I know I'm going to
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: lose the audience a little bit, orclosing the audience.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 2: Uh, well, you know, just thinking about that because I
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 2: was writing something about my friend Dawn, one of my
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: oldest friends.
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: Does she live in Montrose?
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 2: No, No, she came with She comes with me on
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: tour sometimes. Okay, we both hate dogs. Nothing will it
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 2: cause you to lose an audience more? I'm you hate dogs?
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: People you just feel them leaving you, you know what
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: I mean? Like you could say you hate children, not
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 2: a problem, right. Uh, you say you hate Catholics, they'll
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 2: find a way to forgive you. But if you hate dogs,
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 2: oh my goodness. So just thinking about putting that in
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: this essay, that I'm writing that done dogs, and I
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: thought I just thought about it, you know, because really
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 2: people get so upset when you don't like dogs, so.
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: You got to put it in or leave it out.
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: Ah, I don't know, I don't know. I think I
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: mean Don really, Don hates dogs so much that she
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: will like cross the street if she sees one coming.
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 2: Like she's very She's the kind of person who doesn't
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 2: like cigarette smoke but goes like this. You know, it's
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 2: kind of overkill, right, you know, you can just sort
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: of quietly hate a dog. You know, you don't need
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: to make a big show about it. And I've often
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 2: pointed that out to her. But I would love to
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 2: get on an airplane and not have a full sized
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: dog sitting next to me on the airplane. I'd love that.
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but you know, what you're act is such
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 1: that you're breaking taboos all along. But you're just saying
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: dogs is the third rail?
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about woke it politically incorrect. You tell
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 1: phenomenal jokes. The joke you said about you know, the
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 1: size of a woman's vagina whatever, I've told that a
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: million times, That the one about the railroad. I've heard
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: that a friend of mine tells that whatever. But by
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: traditional standards, many people would say these are off color,
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 1: politically incorrect. How come you get away with it when
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: no one else can?
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, I mean, but those jokes are
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: nothing to me, I mean are not. I don't you know.
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 2: Someone told me that I didn't write them. I'm just
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 2: repeating them. But I can see how that doesn't make
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: any difference if you're in front of an audience. But gosh,
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I know there are jokes
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't tell on stage. You know that are just
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: racist jokes. I mean, that's the whole point out them,
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 2: is that they're racist jokes. That's not going to work
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: in front of an audience now. But I wouldn't have
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: read those on stage ten years ago either. I mean,
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: I might read them at a dinner party. But well, like,
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 2: there was a joke that somebody told me that I
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 2: repeated on stage. And a woman calls her husband very
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: upset because their son has just had sex with this
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 2: teacher and been expelled from school, and she's devastated. But
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 2: the father goes and buys his son a brand new
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 2: bicycle and presents it to him and says, I just
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 2: want you to know I'm kind of proud of you.
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 2: And the kid looks at the bike and says, maybe
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: i'll ride it later after my ass stops hurting, And
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 2: then the audience.
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: That's fantastic.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: The audience usually groans, and I'm like, why didn't you
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: groan when you heard the kid had sex with this teacher?
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: Why do you only groan when you find out if
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: it's a male teacher. I love that kind of a
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 2: joke because because it's true. Why do you grown? Why
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 2: do you only grow when you learn it was a
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 2: man you know? Well?
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: But just to stay on the theme, if a straight
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: guy told some of these jokes, I think that there
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: would be noise. I think there would be blowback. Really, oh,
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 1: I thought about this a lot. Absolutely, you're saying I'm
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: the other, therefore I can get away with it. This
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 1: is part of my persona I don't even know.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 1: Definitely, definitely. The only problem is your lack of you
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: was so far not hit a major third rail. Not
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 1: that that's your general act, but the fact that you
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 1: don't seem to under you don't see that some straight
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: Guys by Dad problems makes you wonder whether you whether
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 1: there's some third rail lurking out there. But okay, if
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: you say you sold the story to the New Yorker,
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: you know, and that's going to be printed, to what
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: degree do you start getting anxious feeling knowing the stories
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 1: come out then it does come out. How much feedback
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: do you get in your inbox or in the phone
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: call whatever?
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: Not much? Not so much. I mean maybe a couple
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 2: of friends will say, oh, I saw your essay in
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 2: the New Yorker, But I mean I don't I'm not
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 2: on social media. I don't know what goes on.
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm talking more. Okay, you write an essay, let's
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: just use for the sake of discussion. It's not going
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 1: to be well, how long is usually the lag time?
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 2: What do you mean the time between you and.
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 1: You finished something and it hits print.
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 2: Oh well, gosh, my agent gave this to the magazine
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 2: like three weeks ago, and then we just heard a
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 2: couple of days ago they're taking it. And so I've
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 2: done the first rewrite, and then you know, the fact
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 2: checkers will call. So today I wrote to the Shepherd
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: and just sent him the essay and said, did I
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: get anything wrong here? You know? And are you okay
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: with the fact checker calling you from the New Yorker?
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: So when it's going to be published, do you get spilkissed?
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: Do you get up tight now that it's going to
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: hit the world at large?
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 2: No? I mean no, I'm excited. I mean I think
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 2: it's a pretty good essay.
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: I guess, you know, when I write something and then
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: people could read it, there's an emotional process and then
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: a cool down. But each to his own. Let me
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: ask you another, just one final question here? What do
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: you do with all the money.
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 2: I buy a house?
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 1: If I were to ask you, and I'm not going
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: to ask you how much money you have, would you
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: have any idea?
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 2: I don't really know much.
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: Do you ever say I would like to buy something,
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 1: but maybe I can't afford it.
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 2: Well, like we were just talking about there's a house
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 2: near us that came up for sale, and we were
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: talking about, we'd like to buy it for this young
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 2: couple we know, you know, and then they could with
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 2: the understanding they could kind of check in on us
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 2: when we're older and we're you know, we're thinking, well,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 2: what if they get a divorce, what if this? What
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: if that? But uh, I don't know, I'm not uh
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 2: And I'd buy art a lot, you know, like paintings
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: that are really expensive that I never thought I would
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 2: be able to do or And you're crazy if you
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 2: think of it as an investment, because what twenty year
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 2: old on the street today wants to buy a Picasso pain?
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 2: You know they're they're you know.
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 1: Art has become detached from the art itself and it's
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 1: become a trading item. You sit here and talk about
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: devaluation of Picasso. I'm not sure. I don't agree with that.
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 1: Picasso's one thing, It's forever.
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 2: But what I'm saying is you better like it. You know,
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 2: if you're buying something, you better like it. So that's
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 2: my attitude. You know. I'm not thinking will I get
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 2: my money back? Or will it increase in value? I'm
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 2: just thinking, oh, do I love it enough? And the
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 2: answer is often yes.
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: And have you made it to the mountaintop or is
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: there a peak in the distance that you want to climb.
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 2: I've made it to the mountaintop, So.
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: What keeps you going? Now?
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: I love it. I really like what I do. I
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 2: find it incredibly rewarding. I feel I'm at my best
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 2: when I'm on tour. I will be really, really sad
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 2: when I can't do it anymore.
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 1: How much of the enjoyment is writing the piece as
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: opposed to performing live?
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 2: Thirty writing it seventy percent performing at live.
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, that's very interesting. Okay. I want to thank
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time, David, to speaking
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: with me, and my audience certainly learned certain things about
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: you that I did not know. I'll be thinking as
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 1: someone who has their own issues with OCD. I found
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: that very interesting.
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for having.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 1: Me right and I just have to comment. You know,
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: I was aware of you and you were off. I'm
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 1: not really a big NPR person, although I've subscribed to
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 1: The New Yorker forever, but my girlfriend about fifteen years
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 1: ago said, we had to see you at UCLA. And
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: once someone sees you, they're closed. I mean, theoretically, someone
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: could be at your gig and leave within the first
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 1: two minutes, but if you're there for two minutes, you're
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 1: there till the end. It's you know, it's a unique act.
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 1: No one can sit there and say, hey, I've seen
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 1: this before, and I think one of the most interesting
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 1: things I say, and this goes back to the woke thing,
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: is you say the unsayable that we all know. It's
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 1: like your point about the middle class. I believe everybody
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 1: has a story, at least one story, the story of
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 1: their life. And when you're going on about your father
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: on this recent tour, we all have you know, it's
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 1: Kiaraskiro with our parents at best. So for someone to say, hey,
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: this is my experience. We all live in a very
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: lonely world and we're looking to identify and you're providing
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: a service to all these people who don't feel connected.
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 1: Forget the people who are just saying I subscribe to
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: the New Yorker. I hear you on Terry Grows, I'm
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 1: a fan. There's an essence there. And the great thing
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: about it is you're not pandering in the process, because
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: many people are. You continue to chart your own course,
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: which is just a long winded way to say, if
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 1: David is in your town, you must go. You must go.
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 1: Everybody will be talking about it. You'll live on the story.
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 1: You know. You can watch a movie then say where
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: are we going to dinner? That but if you go
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: to see David you'll be talking about it for at
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: least a week, so thanks again for taking the time.
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 1: Thanks Bob, till next time. This is Bob Left Sense