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KILLER WIVES: Master of Disguise · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Ever heard the phrase master
0:16
Speaker 1: of disguise, it's even a movie? Well, that character could
0:21
Speaker 1: take a page out of the book of Margaret Rudin
0:25
Speaker 1: aka The Black Widow. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I
0:44
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
0:47
Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and series XIM one eleven.
0:52
Speaker 1: How did the love birds meet? Take a listen to
0:55
Speaker 1: our old friend, Bill Curtis, American Justice. Margaret Craffy met
0:59
Speaker 1: Run at church in the summer of nineteen eighty seven.
1:02
Speaker 1: Both were natives of Illinois and grew up in close
1:06
Speaker 1: knit families. Both had been married four times. Margaret had
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Speaker 1: two children in their twenties. The charming Redhead made an
1:15
Speaker 1: immediate impression on Ron and his family. She was very refined, tailored, attractive,
1:23
Speaker 1: but thinking back, she was very quiet. Also, she did
1:28
Speaker 1: not say a lot, but I thought she was a
1:32
Speaker 1: very good match with Ron. Each of Margaret's husbands had
1:37
Speaker 1: been wealthier than the last, especially lucrative. Clearly, when she
1:42
Speaker 1: came out to Las Vegas, she was looking for more
1:45
Speaker 1: than just companionship. She wanted that financial security, and that's
1:49
Speaker 1: probably in large part why she married Ruden. They married
1:53
Speaker 1: in September nineteen eighty seven, and Margaret moved into the
1:56
Speaker 1: house at fifty thirteen Alpine Way, where Ron had lived
2:01
Speaker 1: with all his previous wives. Boy, that's telling me a
2:03
Speaker 1: lot right there. So, you know, going into a marriage
2:08
Speaker 1: when you've already had each of you four previous spouses,
2:13
Speaker 1: that's what you call baggage. With me an all star
2:16
Speaker 1: panel to break you down and put it back together again.
2:18
Speaker 1: First of all, Laura Uretsien La California, high profile defense
2:24
Speaker 1: attorney Karen Starton New York psychologists. You can find her
2:27
Speaker 1: at Karen Starton dot com. Karen Smith joining me out
2:31
Speaker 1: of LA. Also forensics expert and hosts of a brand
2:34
Speaker 1: new podcast, Shattered Souls. The medical examiner for the State
2:39
Speaker 1: of Georgia, doctor Tim Gallagher. But first to Crime online
2:43
Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Sierra Gillespie, Sierra, thank you for
2:47
Speaker 1: being with us. So each one of them had been
2:50
Speaker 1: married four times in the past. Yeah, and MC, this
2:53
Speaker 1: is kind of an interesting situation for them. They were
2:57
Speaker 1: both kind of older. She was actually forty nine years
3:00
Speaker 1: old when she married Ron Ruden, and again it was
3:04
Speaker 1: their fifth marriage. Sierra Gillespie, I hate to interrupt you,
3:08
Speaker 1: but just how old are you? I'm twenty six? Oh okay, Well, Sierra,
3:14
Speaker 1: for many people, forty nine is not quote older. But
3:22
Speaker 1: that said, go ahead. Each of them have been married
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Speaker 1: four times in the past. Well, yes, I guess it's
3:29
Speaker 1: kind of older for your fifth marriage. I don't know.
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Speaker 1: I guess to me being married five Well, hold on,
3:36
Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait minute. You know what's so funny?
3:38
Speaker 1: Karen start? Let's follow up on what Sierra Gillespie Crime
3:41
Speaker 1: online dot Com just said. Karen, start with me New
3:43
Speaker 1: York psychologists. You know, when Elizabeth Taylor does it, it's
3:47
Speaker 1: just fine. She was married, what having seven times? I
3:49
Speaker 1: think when Martha Ray did it, it was fine. But
3:55
Speaker 1: when the rest of us do it, there's a stigma
3:59
Speaker 1: a chat to multiple marriages. There really is. Well why
4:03
Speaker 1: is that? I mean, I hope I never get divorced,
4:07
Speaker 1: and I hope I never get remarried. I love my husband,
4:10
Speaker 1: but once it is enough for me, I'm fine with it.
4:14
Speaker 1: Glad I did it. But why what is it? Compulsive? Bride?
4:20
Speaker 1: I mean, why do you just keep getting married over
4:22
Speaker 1: and over and over? What's gonna be different with the
4:25
Speaker 1: next guy? That I mean? Help me, Karen, Well, that's somebody, Nancy.
4:29
Speaker 1: It's a good point that has attachment issues without a doubt.
4:34
Speaker 1: So it's it's a person who can't either has been
4:39
Speaker 1: in a relationship, they committed to a relationship, or believes
4:44
Speaker 1: that they just haven't found the right person yet. And
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Speaker 1: I think even more it's a stigma. But it's also
4:50
Speaker 1: for a lot of people a joke. They think they
4:53
Speaker 1: find it humorous that someone has married so many times
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Speaker 1: and keeps going because you think to yourself, and I
5:01
Speaker 1: think this is absolutely true. If they didn't get it
5:05
Speaker 1: right the first few times, why did they keep trying?
5:08
Speaker 1: What makes them believe that? Now? Why a man at
5:11
Speaker 1: Karen start when you said, if they didn't get it
5:13
Speaker 1: right the first two times, why I keep trying? Why
5:17
Speaker 1: is that because you've been married twice? That I know
5:19
Speaker 1: absolutely because a lot of people would have said, if
5:22
Speaker 1: you didn't get it right the first time, I keep trying.
5:24
Speaker 1: But she snuck the two in there. I caught that you.
5:28
Speaker 1: But yeah, okay, I always say God bless my husband
5:35
Speaker 1: David because he married me and my mother basically who
5:39
Speaker 1: lives with us now he's a saint. But you know,
5:42
Speaker 1: Laura uretsy in with me La, high profile lawyer. Laura,
5:47
Speaker 1: have you ever done divorce work? No, I haven't done
5:49
Speaker 1: any divorce story. Yeah, I'm with you. I would rather
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Speaker 1: try a serial killer than stick my hand in between
5:56
Speaker 1: two people divorcing. It's like a dog fight. Agreed. Agree,
6:00
Speaker 1: and as it's very highly emotional from what I am. Yes,
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Speaker 1: last thing I want exactly. One of my best friends,
6:06
Speaker 1: who I've mentioned before, is a as I call her
6:10
Speaker 1: right to her face, a dope lawyer. She represents drug lords,
6:15
Speaker 1: street pushers, addicts, you know, criminal intend to distribute the works.
6:21
Speaker 1: If it's dope, she defends it. She gave up handling
6:26
Speaker 1: anybody's divorce, even for friends, because at one point she
6:30
Speaker 1: handled divorce between rich people and I'm telling you, they
6:35
Speaker 1: don't like sharing money. She thought she's gonna get shot.
6:38
Speaker 1: She was representing the wife in that case. I'm with you, Laura.
6:42
Speaker 1: Laura yaretsy enjoined me out of LA and I've had
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Speaker 1: to watch those Yes, I mean I've had to watch
6:47
Speaker 1: divorce cases as part of, you know, going parallel to
6:50
Speaker 1: my criminal cases, and my goodness, they could go on forever,
6:54
Speaker 1: especially if it's between people who are very affluent, and
6:58
Speaker 1: the fights just never ends, and they'll fight on every
7:01
Speaker 1: little thing. Yeah, and the divorce that she was so
7:06
Speaker 1: worried about, they were rich and they were arguing over
7:10
Speaker 1: the pots and the pans, literally fighting, running up, jacking
7:15
Speaker 1: up lawyer's fees over pots and pans. Anyway, that's an
7:21
Speaker 1: insight into a divorce, especially with rich people. And now
7:27
Speaker 1: you've got two people entering a marriage, and each one
7:29
Speaker 1: of them have had four previous and Sierra Gillespie, Jackie
7:34
Speaker 1: here in the studio, wants me to correct a fact
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Speaker 1: about it. Liz was not married to eight different men.
7:42
Speaker 1: She was married to seven different men. She married Richard
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Speaker 1: Burton twice. Is that okay? Yes, So let's clear up
7:47
Speaker 1: Liz Taylor's reputation right here and right now. Now back
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Speaker 1: to the as I call her, the Master of disguise,
7:54
Speaker 1: Margaret Ruden, you're gonna find out. Why, take a listen
7:58
Speaker 1: to how this whole thing got started. Here's our friend,
8:01
Speaker 1: Bill Curtis. I love Bill Curtis. Go ahead. Ron and
8:03
Speaker 1: Margaret's marriage seemed to start well, but just a year
8:07
Speaker 1: after their wedding, Ron Ruden began an affair with another woman.
8:11
Speaker 1: Margaret was enraged in nineteen eighty eight, she overheard her
8:16
Speaker 1: husband talking to his mistress on the phone. Police would
8:20
Speaker 1: later find an entry in Margaret's diary about the violent
8:23
Speaker 1: argument that followed. Margaret's version of that was that she
8:27
Speaker 1: pulled a gun and that Ron grabbed it, and then
8:30
Speaker 1: the gun went off. She didn't say who pulled the trigger.
8:33
Speaker 1: She didn't say if it was aimed at Ron. She
8:35
Speaker 1: didn't say if it went off when Ron tried to
8:37
Speaker 1: grab it from her. She was very vague about that.
8:40
Speaker 1: After a brief separation, the two reconciled, but marital tensions continued,
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Speaker 1: especially about money. Ruden was an extremely private man, showing
8:51
Speaker 1: few details of his business with anyone, including his wife.
8:56
Speaker 1: Margaret found her husband's pension for secrecy maddening and was
9:00
Speaker 1: determined to keep taps on his business. So here it goes,
9:04
Speaker 1: with wealthy individuals keeping their money a secret, sitting on
9:09
Speaker 1: all their goal like a dragon does in its cave.
9:13
Speaker 1: That kind of secrecy in a relationship does not bode well.
9:19
Speaker 1: We're talking about a woman named Margaret Ruden, as I
9:23
Speaker 1: call her Black Widow or master of Disguise, and you're
9:27
Speaker 1: about to find out why she marries Robert Ruden, who
9:31
Speaker 1: was very, very wealthy in LA. You know, to Sierra
9:35
Speaker 1: Gillespie Crime Online dot Com investigator reporter, do we know
9:39
Speaker 1: where Ruden got all his money? Yeah? So Ronald Ruden
9:43
Speaker 1: actually was a millionaire and he made most of his
9:47
Speaker 1: money through real estate, so in the Las Vegas area.
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Speaker 1: That's basically where he came to become this millionaire. And
9:55
Speaker 1: as we heard earlier, he lived with all of his wives,
9:59
Speaker 1: including Mark Rootin in the Las Vegas area and they
10:02
Speaker 1: were pretty well to do. I mean they had a
10:05
Speaker 1: very nice house. You worked in real estate, so things
10:08
Speaker 1: looked well for them, even though they had each been
10:11
Speaker 1: married four times. They met at the First Church of
10:15
Speaker 1: Religious Science in Las Vegas, Jackie, He'll look that up.
10:21
Speaker 1: What is the first Church of Religious Science? You know?
10:26
Speaker 1: To you Karen Smith joined me out of LA. It
10:29
Speaker 1: almost sounds like a Christian scientist, the ones that believe
10:33
Speaker 1: kind of mind over matter. They don't like doctors or medicine.
10:37
Speaker 1: They think you can heal yourself, but they are in
10:40
Speaker 1: fact Christians. What is that? It's the first Church of
10:44
Speaker 1: Religious Science in Las Vegas. So they marry fortuitously on
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Speaker 1: September eleven, many years before the actual September eleven, and
10:56
Speaker 1: their marriage seems to be going along just fine until
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Speaker 1: he becomes secretive about the money crime stories with Nancy Grace.
11:17
Speaker 1: Their marriage seems to be going along just fine until
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Speaker 1: he becomes secretive about the money. So, Karen, start one
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Speaker 1: secretive about money. If you're secretive about that, that bode's ill.
11:34
Speaker 1: I remember when I first start, when I first knew David,
11:38
Speaker 1: I didn't have two pennies to rub together as a prosecutor,
11:41
Speaker 1: and was working at some points three night jobs to
11:46
Speaker 1: make a car and a house payment. So there were
11:49
Speaker 1: not a lot of money secrets except all my pile
11:52
Speaker 1: of bills I had to pay. But then to add
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Speaker 1: to that blatantly, you know, this is her side talking
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Speaker 1: to you a mistress right there. I mean, for Pete's sake,
12:03
Speaker 1: I'm in the room. What does that mean? I can
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Speaker 1: hear you talking to your girlfriend. Are you surprised she
12:11
Speaker 1: pulled a gun on him? Well, I don't know. That
12:13
Speaker 1: sounds pretty extreme, but I could understand that she would
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Speaker 1: be completely upset, and I'm sure that people would wonder
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Speaker 1: at that point, not that she pulled it. Why would
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Speaker 1: you pull a gun? Instead of just saying I've had it,
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Speaker 1: and I'm going to move on to my fifth marriage
12:31
Speaker 1: or another. That would have been the sixth man deciding
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Speaker 1: that she's taken extreme. Everything comes to a screeching halt.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to Love or Money's Peter Thomas. On
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Speaker 1: a Monday morning, Bron Ruden didn't show up for work
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Speaker 1: as he had always done in the twenty years he
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Speaker 1: was in business. As soon as he wasn't there to
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Speaker 1: open the business a half hour before the office opened,
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Speaker 1: his employees knew something was wrong, and the fact that
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Speaker 1: he lived thirty feet from the office also told him
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Speaker 1: that there was something wrong. Ron was not one to disappear, surely,
13:12
Speaker 1: and he was certainly not one to leave his business unattended.
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Speaker 1: Ron's fifth wife, Margaret, called police to report him missing.
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Speaker 1: She said he didn't come home the night before. After
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Speaker 1: that night, Ron Ruden just disappeared off the face of
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Speaker 1: the earth. There were no ATM transactions, no account activity.
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Speaker 1: He wasn't seen anywhere, his cell phone wasn't being used.
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Speaker 1: So he goes missing. Margaret is the one that calls police.
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Speaker 1: But from what we know, he could have gone anywhere
13:44
Speaker 1: between all of his money, all of his business dealings,
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Speaker 1: all of his affairs. Take a listen to Vegas Katie
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Speaker 1: n v Child thirteen Ja Partel's. Ron always kept Margaret
13:55
Speaker 1: at arm's length and never revealed really how much money
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Speaker 1: he had, a secret that Margaret stopped it nothing to learn.
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Speaker 1: Margaret was even suspected of wire tapping Ron's phones at
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Speaker 1: his office so that she could hear who he was
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Speaker 1: speaking with, and ultimately she found out that he was
14:12
Speaker 1: having an affair with someone, and she heard it on
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Speaker 1: the wiretap that she illegally created. Despite learning about the affair,
14:21
Speaker 1: Margaret wanted more, so, with the help of Ron's money,
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Speaker 1: she opened up an antique store right next door to
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Speaker 1: Ron's real estate office, the stones throw away from their home,
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Speaker 1: and it was a curious business venture from anyone on
14:34
Speaker 1: the outside looking in. Ron had furnished her. He told
14:39
Speaker 1: me over one hundred thousand dollars to open that antique store.
14:45
Speaker 1: She didn't learn more about antiques than how you do.
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Speaker 1: Margaret wanted Ron's money, and she knew from her previous
14:53
Speaker 1: four marriages that if she gets a divorce, she's not
14:56
Speaker 1: gonna get very much that money. So she stayed with
15:01
Speaker 1: him for a while, but it just got worse and worse.
15:04
Speaker 1: You know, you're hearing about a wire tap that Margaret
15:08
Speaker 1: had put on her husband's phones because she thought he
15:11
Speaker 1: was cheating. In yes, she found out he was cheating.
15:14
Speaker 1: All right, when you're marriage is at that point to you, Karen,
15:18
Speaker 1: start when you're having to wire tap your husband. I mean,
15:22
Speaker 1: one time I wanted to read my husband's emails. My
15:27
Speaker 1: eyes started bleeding. They were so boring. I've never done
15:32
Speaker 1: that again. Ever. Everyone was another horribly intricate business dealing.
15:41
Speaker 1: Oh it was terrible. I've never done it again. Yes,
15:46
Speaker 1: God bless him. But tween year to a point where
15:49
Speaker 1: you've got a tap air spouse's phone, you might as
15:53
Speaker 1: well just go ahead and get a divorce or go
15:56
Speaker 1: to therapy one or the other, because to me that
16:00
Speaker 1: it's irretrievably broken when either you distrust them so much
16:03
Speaker 1: or they've given you cause to distrust them so much.
16:07
Speaker 1: There had to be a reason for that. She was right,
16:10
Speaker 1: you know. That leads me to another question at the
16:13
Speaker 1: point where you're thinking, wow, is he having an affair?
16:15
Speaker 1: If you're thinking that something has led you to think
16:20
Speaker 1: that either an unexplained disappearance or just a bizarre set
16:27
Speaker 1: of behavior or something out of the you know what
16:30
Speaker 1: always gives it away when the husband starts working out
16:34
Speaker 1: and going on diets or getting a sports car out
16:38
Speaker 1: of the blue. I'm no shrink, that's you, Karen, start
16:41
Speaker 1: but what does that mean? Well, that means he's taking
16:45
Speaker 1: a new interest in how he looks. And unless something
16:51
Speaker 1: drastic has happened, oh will in his life, you have
16:55
Speaker 1: to start thinking why is he suddenly so interest student
17:01
Speaker 1: working out or dressing well? But there are other clues
17:04
Speaker 1: and things to look for a Nancy. I mean, if
17:06
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're with somebody who never gets
17:09
Speaker 1: your gifts and he starts to get your gifts while
17:13
Speaker 1: he's working out. You have to trust your instincts, which
17:16
Speaker 1: is what I say to my patients. You have to
17:19
Speaker 1: pay attention. If you have an instinct that tells you
17:22
Speaker 1: that something is going on, something is probably going on,
17:27
Speaker 1: unless you're terribly paranoid and you always think something that's
17:31
Speaker 1: going on. Okay, Jack, he's gotten the answer to the church.
17:34
Speaker 1: It's not Christian scientists. It looks like it's just non denominational,
17:38
Speaker 1: you know. To you Karen Smith joining me la California
17:42
Speaker 1: forensics expert, host of Shattered Sould podcast, Karen, how difficult, Well,
17:49
Speaker 1: anybody's ever been to a radio shack or a spy
17:51
Speaker 1: store or even look on Amazon. How hard is it
17:54
Speaker 1: to tap somebody's phone or you know, record their conversations.
17:58
Speaker 1: It's not it's not at all. I mean we're talking,
18:01
Speaker 1: you know, twenty years ago at least at this point,
18:04
Speaker 1: so you know you can go and buy go to
18:06
Speaker 1: a spy shop and buy a rudimentary phone tap you
18:09
Speaker 1: just I think the hardest part would be getting access
18:12
Speaker 1: to that phone to do it, rather than actually putting
18:16
Speaker 1: the device on the phone to record crime stories with
18:32
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about Margaret Ruden, also known
18:40
Speaker 1: as the Master of Disguise or the Black Widow to
18:45
Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner, State of Florida. So
18:49
Speaker 1: often people go missing, we later find out their dad,
18:53
Speaker 1: and their bodies are never found. Sometimes they're found twenty
18:58
Speaker 1: thirty years later. It's not that hard to dispose of
19:02
Speaker 1: a body if you put your mind to a Dodtor Gallagher,
19:04
Speaker 1: what's the most bizarre hidden body case you've ever worked? With,
19:10
Speaker 1: the fact this guy goes missing and they can't find
19:12
Speaker 1: them at first? How common is that also in your
19:15
Speaker 1: pride is Dodtor gallagh or is the medical Examiner for Florida.
19:19
Speaker 1: That people go to the length of hiding the body. Well,
19:21
Speaker 1: we've had many occasions of those. You know, We've found
19:25
Speaker 1: bodies in fifty five gallon drums of acid. You know
19:29
Speaker 1: that we're buried on people's property. We've found bodies incased
19:33
Speaker 1: in concrete buried on people's property as well. You know. Sometimes,
19:39
Speaker 1: you know, we find bodies that are missing, that are
19:43
Speaker 1: accidentally missing. For instance, we have a lot of canals
19:45
Speaker 1: here that people drive off the road into a canal
19:48
Speaker 1: and their bodies are underwater for years and years before
19:51
Speaker 1: they're recovered, you know. So we've had a lot of
19:54
Speaker 1: interesting cases. We've had people who showed up in the
19:57
Speaker 1: suitcases that were in the ever just whatever you can
20:03
Speaker 1: think of and beyond, you know, is what we have
20:05
Speaker 1: here in Florida. And when Ron does not show up
20:08
Speaker 1: for work, his employees immediately know something's horribly wrong. Laura
20:13
Speaker 1: Eauretsi joining me from LA. There is a type of
20:18
Speaker 1: evidence called routine evidence, and that doesn't mean it's just
20:22
Speaker 1: like huh huh, drum. It's not boring routine evidence. It's
20:26
Speaker 1: evidence of your routine, and so many times, Laura uretts In,
20:32
Speaker 1: I don't know if this has happened in your defense
20:34
Speaker 1: practice as it has in my prosecution practice, that many
20:39
Speaker 1: people are like clockwork. Like if I came to this
20:42
Speaker 1: studio and Jackie was not sitting right there and Brett
20:45
Speaker 1: was not sitting right there, I would call nine one one,
20:48
Speaker 1: because they've never ever missed a day work ever. And
20:52
Speaker 1: you know there's certain habits, routines people go through by choice,
20:57
Speaker 1: and if they break that routine, callings co workers, family, no,
21:02
Speaker 1: something is wrong, Laura, and that can really start your
21:06
Speaker 1: criminal timeline right there right which is exactly what happened here.
21:09
Speaker 1: I mean it was his habit, obviously, we call it
21:11
Speaker 1: the habit type of evidence to be his office in
21:18
Speaker 1: the mornings, and hence the reason his employees were the
21:22
Speaker 1: first to notice that something was not right, that something
21:28
Speaker 1: had happened and reported it, from what I understand, to
21:32
Speaker 1: the authorities. And it's only after that that his wife,
21:37
Speaker 1: Margaret reports him missing. That's a very important distinction because
21:44
Speaker 1: earlier I said she called and reported missing. But you're
21:47
Speaker 1: absolutely right, yet again, Laura Juretsien, that the coworkers first
21:53
Speaker 1: noticed he was out of place. Guys talk about a premonition.
21:57
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Joe Bartels it kt envy.
22:01
Speaker 1: He was literally sleeping with another woman and she found
22:03
Speaker 1: out about it. Then, just weeks before Christmas, Ron plays
22:06
Speaker 1: a phone call with his good friend Johns. I found
22:09
Speaker 1: a piece of paper in the house. Margaret's diagramming out
22:12
Speaker 1: how she's going to split up all my money, the
22:16
Speaker 1: estate with her relatives and friends. And he says, I'm
22:21
Speaker 1: really getting nervous. I told him you got to watch
22:24
Speaker 1: your bag. That morning came as Ron changed his will.
22:27
Speaker 1: I'm moved that many saw as a fingerpoint right at
22:29
Speaker 1: his wife if something happened to him. It got to
22:32
Speaker 1: the point that he started worrying that his life could
22:35
Speaker 1: be in danger, that maybe Margaret might elevate us to
22:38
Speaker 1: the next step. So he changed his will. He put
22:41
Speaker 1: a writer in his will that said, if I'd die
22:43
Speaker 1: by violent means car crash, accident, shooting, investigate the person
22:50
Speaker 1: who stands to inherit money. Wow. So he comes home
22:54
Speaker 1: and he finds a piece of paper where Margaret Ruden
22:57
Speaker 1: is detailing how she's going to split up his estate
23:02
Speaker 1: after his death with her friends and family. I would
23:04
Speaker 1: have left right then. I wouldn't have even bothered to pack,
23:06
Speaker 1: just go goodbye Lee. But he didn't, and then he
23:10
Speaker 1: doesn't report to work one day. You know, doctor Tim Gallagher,
23:14
Speaker 1: medical examers, State of Florida, how many times have you
23:16
Speaker 1: investigated a case? Of course, you're performing the autopsy, but
23:21
Speaker 1: medical examiners look at extrinsic evidence as well as just
23:25
Speaker 1: the body. Margaret Rudin basically makes a flow chart, a
23:29
Speaker 1: diagram of how she's got split up her husband's money
23:31
Speaker 1: after his death, and he finds it. How often have
23:35
Speaker 1: you seen that, doctor Gallagher? Oh, I'm currently working on
23:38
Speaker 1: a case now where there's this notebook after notebook of
23:42
Speaker 1: nefarious notes that someone had taken against another person. You know.
23:48
Speaker 1: So these tend to be a pretty common especially in
23:52
Speaker 1: the probably forty to sixty year old age range. And
23:56
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say if that's a young person
23:58
Speaker 1: or otherwise, but we tend to we tend to look
24:02
Speaker 1: at that, and when we come across cases in that
24:05
Speaker 1: age range, that's one of the things that we try
24:07
Speaker 1: to keep an eye eye out for. On the scene,
24:09
Speaker 1: you know, I had, of course it was rich people
24:11
Speaker 1: again and the husband, why type the why I found
24:14
Speaker 1: out she had a boyfriend, And I don't really blame
24:16
Speaker 1: her because he's horrible the husband. But then he took
24:23
Speaker 1: all of his suits to the dry cleaners before he
24:27
Speaker 1: burned the house down with her in it. He took
24:29
Speaker 1: all of his family photos of his family and stored
24:33
Speaker 1: them at his home. He even called the weather chan
24:35
Speaker 1: the weather station to find out if it's going to
24:38
Speaker 1: rain the day of the fire. He said, so, I
24:41
Speaker 1: mean leaving a trill a mile wide, and we just
24:44
Speaker 1: saw to Lauriarettsian in the Jennifer Dulos, the Connecticut mother
24:48
Speaker 1: of five who goes missing. Her body has not been found,
24:50
Speaker 1: where her husband photos. Dulos and his girlfriend had written
24:54
Speaker 1: an alibi script basically about it was a lot of
24:59
Speaker 1: it made up where they we're at the time Jennifer
25:01
Speaker 1: goes missing and you're out in California. Laura, I hope
25:04
Speaker 1: you didn't work on the Robert Blake case, because there
25:06
Speaker 1: was a to do list in that go get lie
25:10
Speaker 1: go get a tar get my guns. Of course they
25:13
Speaker 1: came up with excuses about this to do list, But
25:16
Speaker 1: have you ever seen that where they actually the perchs
25:20
Speaker 1: actually leave written evidence of their crime, like here dividing
25:24
Speaker 1: up his money before he's even been murdered. I mean,
25:26
Speaker 1: who says criminal mind is always the brightest. People do
25:31
Speaker 1: all sorts of things. Sometimes they're planning, sometimes they're not
25:35
Speaker 1: planning it in the beginning, and they leave notes of
25:38
Speaker 1: the hatred. I mean, we've seen it all. And does
25:41
Speaker 1: that surprise me? Not at all? Again? People again, who
25:44
Speaker 1: says that the criminal line is really the brightest. People
25:47
Speaker 1: get caught because they do stupid things, because they make mistakes,
25:52
Speaker 1: and they leave a trail behind, and you've got situations
25:57
Speaker 1: like this that we have in this case. But the
25:59
Speaker 1: interest part in this case is though not just then, No,
26:04
Speaker 1: as far as Margaret's concerned, one of the things that
26:08
Speaker 1: really stands out for me is, you know, this is
26:10
Speaker 1: someone who when things go wrong in a marriage, she
26:13
Speaker 1: gets a divorce. So I could see a defense lawyer
26:17
Speaker 1: arguing that, you know what she would what she would
26:18
Speaker 1: have done, is what she's done before previously, like what
26:21
Speaker 1: we argued her habits and hers was to divorce these husbands.
26:25
Speaker 1: And one argument I could have raised is the defense
26:28
Speaker 1: attorney is the natural, the habitual thing, the routine thing
26:31
Speaker 1: that this woman would have done was to divorce this husband.
26:34
Speaker 1: And even this wire tap thing that to me shows
26:37
Speaker 1: more not someone who's planning to kill her husband, but
26:40
Speaker 1: someone who's trying to find find out what's the financial status?
26:43
Speaker 1: How much money does he have? Where is where his assets?
26:46
Speaker 1: Where is he hiding these assets for divorce purposes? And
26:49
Speaker 1: who is he sleeping with? That too? Yeah, and who's
26:52
Speaker 1: the girlfriend? I'd like to know that first and foremost,
26:55
Speaker 1: so to you. Sierra Gillespie Crime online dot Com investigative
26:58
Speaker 1: reporter goes without saying, Robert Rudin is dead? How did
27:03
Speaker 1: they find his body? Where was he? So? Nancy? He
27:05
Speaker 1: went missing on December eighteenth, nineteen ninety four, and earlier
27:09
Speaker 1: you had talked about how it could be like twenty years,
27:11
Speaker 1: thirty years until they found a body, But in this case,
27:15
Speaker 1: it really wasn't that long. They didn't find it until
27:17
Speaker 1: about a month later, in January of nineteen ninety five.
27:21
Speaker 1: He was found near Lake Mohabby. So his remains were found,
27:27
Speaker 1: I guess I should say he had been shot multiple times.
27:30
Speaker 1: He'd also been decapitated, but he was burned, so they
27:35
Speaker 1: literally found charred remains of his WHOA, okay, I almost finished.
27:40
Speaker 1: I hadn't asked you time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,
27:55
Speaker 1: we're talking about a black widow, Margaret Rudin, also known
27:58
Speaker 1: as the Master of Disguise. Take a listen to our
28:01
Speaker 1: friend Peter Thomas on for Love or Money. A week later,
28:06
Speaker 1: police found Ron's car in the parking lot of a
28:09
Speaker 1: gentleman's club just off the Vegas Strip. The man who
28:14
Speaker 1: found the car, the night manager at the strip club,
28:17
Speaker 1: was a former Disgrace police officer in Las Vegas who
28:21
Speaker 1: once had mob ties. This immediately raised a lot of
28:25
Speaker 1: eyebrows and made people wonder is there in organized crime
28:29
Speaker 1: connection to this disappearance. Inside the car were traces of
28:34
Speaker 1: blood too badly degraded for DNA testing. Forensic experts also
28:39
Speaker 1: found mud. Well The detectives had developed a theory of
28:43
Speaker 1: the Ron Ruin's body had been transported in the car
28:46
Speaker 1: or in a trunk in the car, but a forensic
28:49
Speaker 1: analysis could not determine where the mud came from. Well
28:53
Speaker 1: Also's skull was found. A hiker finds a human skull
28:58
Speaker 1: in a ravine twenty yards away from the charred remains.
29:03
Speaker 1: Additional bones found and a gold bracelet found with the
29:07
Speaker 1: name Ron engraved on it, Still no idea on the
29:12
Speaker 1: skull until dental records confirmed the skull is Ron Ruden.
29:17
Speaker 1: He had been shot in the head four times with
29:20
Speaker 1: a twenty two caliber pistol. So to you, doctor Tim Gallagher,
29:25
Speaker 1: how do you figure that out? What with an X
29:27
Speaker 1: ray or do you have to open the skull? Well,
29:29
Speaker 1: if the skull is found after that amount of times,
29:32
Speaker 1: I don't think that there'd be any flesh left on it.
29:35
Speaker 1: But if there is, you know, we do have very
29:36
Speaker 1: good X ray equipment, and then we can determine by
29:40
Speaker 1: the size of the wound and by the features of
29:44
Speaker 1: the wound if they are entrance wounds, exit wounds, and
29:47
Speaker 1: approximately what caliber they are. A twenty two caliber projectiles
29:52
Speaker 1: a very small project calib makes a very small hole
29:55
Speaker 1: and it doesn't really damage the bone a lot. So
29:59
Speaker 1: if those skull was shot by a higher caliber firearm,
30:04
Speaker 1: it would be shattered. If it was shot by a
30:06
Speaker 1: small one of the holes would be very very preserved
30:10
Speaker 1: and very well able to be analyzed. So the body
30:14
Speaker 1: has been found, But how the hey did it get there?
30:17
Speaker 1: It screams mob murder. Take a listen to what police
30:22
Speaker 1: find when they go to the ruden listen to Peter Thomas.
30:27
Speaker 1: Although police found nothing suspicious when they searched Rudin's home,
30:33
Speaker 1: a local handyman told police he saw plenty that was
30:37
Speaker 1: suspicious when he worked there just days after Ron disappeared.
30:41
Speaker 1: He worked for Margaret can helped her decorate, and he
30:47
Speaker 1: helped her clean up. She told him get rid of
30:49
Speaker 1: this mattress, get rid of the bed, and tear out
30:53
Speaker 1: the carpet. He found this dry, gooey, crunchy material in
30:59
Speaker 1: the carpeting that he was sure was blood. The handyman
31:03
Speaker 1: helped Margaret convert the master bedroom into an office. Although
31:08
Speaker 1: the room had been redecorated, investigators decided to test the
31:13
Speaker 1: walls and ceiling for blood that may have been removed
31:18
Speaker 1: us so luminol. It looked like the milky way lit
31:23
Speaker 1: up like a Christmas tree. They were certain this was
31:27
Speaker 1: the death scene. What is luminol, Karen Smith, and how
31:30
Speaker 1: does it work? And how do they find blood that
31:32
Speaker 1: lit up the scene like the milky way lit up
31:34
Speaker 1: like a Christmas tree. I can't tell you the number
31:37
Speaker 1: of times I've seen it, and I've heard that luminol
31:40
Speaker 1: is a camluminescent reagent. And what it does is it
31:42
Speaker 1: reacts with the iron and blood and it turns the
31:44
Speaker 1: bright blue color. It gives off light and when you
31:47
Speaker 1: say it lit up like a Christmas tree, it looks
31:48
Speaker 1: like the milky way. That is the primary scene of
31:51
Speaker 1: a murder. There's no way around it. Blood will break
31:54
Speaker 1: up into droplets that commensurate in size with the amount
31:57
Speaker 1: of force applied to them. So when you have blood
31:59
Speaker 1: spatter all over a wall like that, in small, teeny
32:01
Speaker 1: little pinpoint droplets, that's indicative of a gunshot. You have
32:05
Speaker 1: a mattress that's been disposed of, you have carpet that's
32:07
Speaker 1: been disposed of, that's the murder scene, Nancy, simple as that.
32:11
Speaker 1: As I always say, I do not believe in conspiracies
32:13
Speaker 1: very often because people can't keep their trap shut. Here
32:16
Speaker 1: we go, Margaret Ruden. A trust the handyman to clean
32:20
Speaker 1: up the crime scene and not talk. But then while investigators,
32:25
Speaker 1: through the use of lumin all do find blood, the
32:28
Speaker 1: one thing they can't find is Margaret Ruden. Take a
32:31
Speaker 1: listen to our buddy Bill Curtis at American Justice. Margaret
32:35
Speaker 1: Ruden was on the lamb charged with murdering her husband
32:39
Speaker 1: run Ruden, The fifty three year old Las Vegas grandmother
32:42
Speaker 1: had skipped down just ahead of the police. For three decades,
32:47
Speaker 1: she had been supported by a string of husbands. Now,
32:51
Speaker 1: for the first time, she would have to rely on
32:53
Speaker 1: her own wits and her own money to survive. Going
32:58
Speaker 1: on the lamb was one of the best things that
33:00
Speaker 1: ever happened to her. She felt finally empowered. She was
33:04
Speaker 1: on her own, she didn't have to rely on a man.
33:08
Speaker 1: She felt good. Then she would prove to be adept
33:11
Speaker 1: at avoiding capture. It didn't really surprise me that she
33:16
Speaker 1: ran off. What surprised me later was that she was
33:20
Speaker 1: so good at it. Margaret went to some elaborate means
33:23
Speaker 1: to obtain false identity, and she had social Security cards, passports,
33:30
Speaker 1: driver's licenses, all kinds of fake ID with her. Wow,
33:35
Speaker 1: you know, the ability to go on the run and
33:38
Speaker 1: outsmart the cops for that long fake IDs. You notice
33:42
Speaker 1: at the beginning the family loved her. Thought she was
33:44
Speaker 1: a stunning redhead. When I knew her, she was blonde,
33:48
Speaker 1: and that changed many, many times. But then again it
33:53
Speaker 1: all comes to a screeching halt. Here's Bill Curtiss, a
33:56
Speaker 1: woman in Phoenix Arizona contacted authorities there. She had seen
34:01
Speaker 1: a segment of the television show America's Most Wanted that
34:05
Speaker 1: featured us sought after murder us nicknamed the Black Widow
34:08
Speaker 1: of Vegas. She told Phoenix police that an acquaintance of
34:13
Speaker 1: her is named n vote Right, looked like the woman
34:16
Speaker 1: in the segment. The police went to question and vote Right.
34:21
Speaker 1: She was interviewed by the same officer twice, and both
34:26
Speaker 1: times she was able to convince him that she was
34:30
Speaker 1: not this Margaret Ruden. He talked to her, and he
34:34
Speaker 1: just couldn't believe that this soft spoken, sweet, grandmotherly person
34:38
Speaker 1: could be a cold blooded killer. They felt that there
34:43
Speaker 1: was something wrong, but they just couldn't get the positive
34:45
Speaker 1: identification on her and they had to let her go.
34:49
Speaker 1: Only later, an end vote Right's room at the YMCA,
34:52
Speaker 1: did police find a keychain with a Ron Ruden Realty logo.
34:57
Speaker 1: So let me understand this, do you? Sierra Gillespie Crime
34:59
Speaker 1: Online dot Com investigative reporter. A woman in feeding Sarazona
35:05
Speaker 1: calls police saying her friend A boat Right looks just
35:10
Speaker 1: like a woman just featured on americans Most Wanted. So
35:14
Speaker 1: cops go there, not once but twice many times, and
35:18
Speaker 1: on two occasions they speak to Anne Boat right, and
35:23
Speaker 1: she convinces them she's not Margaret Rudin and they leave. Yeah, Nancy,
35:27
Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened. It kind of sounds like a
35:30
Speaker 1: movie script or something, right. I mean, this woman is
35:35
Speaker 1: very I guess it's almost like she's a spy. She
35:39
Speaker 1: changed her hair. She was later known as dying it
35:42
Speaker 1: or wearing wigs. But yes, a woman saw her on
35:45
Speaker 1: America's Most Wanted in Arizona. She spoke to the police
35:50
Speaker 1: and actually convinced them, coerced them possibly and said that's
35:54
Speaker 1: not me, and they did have to let her go.
35:57
Speaker 1: It's amazing to me. Now, listen to this, Bill Curtis.
36:00
Speaker 1: In October nineteen ninety nine, authorities learned that Margaret had
36:04
Speaker 1: sent several packages from a po box in Revere, Massachusetts,
36:08
Speaker 1: to a friend in Utah. The contents included Christmas presents
36:13
Speaker 1: for Ridden's three grandchildren. Police in Revere staked out the
36:17
Speaker 1: apartment where the po boxholder lived and used some creative
36:21
Speaker 1: tactics to get inside to look for Margaret. The whole
36:26
Speaker 1: capture was the stuff of movies. A Domino's pizza had
36:30
Speaker 1: been delivered to the apartment where she was living. The
36:33
Speaker 1: Domino's guy pulled away, the cops came and said, hey,
36:36
Speaker 1: can we borrow a pizza box in your outfit? They
36:38
Speaker 1: did knock on the door, the doors opened by the
36:41
Speaker 1: man who was living there with Margaret at the time,
36:44
Speaker 1: and the cops come racing in with guns drawn and
36:46
Speaker 1: maglite flashlights and the whole works, and Margaret's found cowering
36:51
Speaker 1: in a bathroom by the toilet. Questioned as to whether
36:57
Speaker 1: she knew why she was being taken into custody, Ruden replied,
37:01
Speaker 1: it's about that biggest thing. Wow, Okay, you're wondering why
37:06
Speaker 1: police had to go to such extremes dressing up like
37:08
Speaker 1: pizza's delivery in order to get Margaret Rudin. Well, take
37:11
Speaker 1: a listen to Dave Matt with Crime online dot Com.
37:14
Speaker 1: Three weeks before her indictment, Margaret Rudin disappeared, ultimately landing
37:18
Speaker 1: in Revere, Massachusetts, by way of Mexico. For more than
37:21
Speaker 1: six months, she had been roommates with a retired firefighter
37:24
Speaker 1: in an apartment in a triple decker house. That man
37:27
Speaker 1: was Joseph Lundergen. Margaret Rudin was working to support herself
37:30
Speaker 1: by looking for work as an apprentice in a cobbler shop.
37:34
Speaker 1: The two reportedly met while living in the same Guadalajara
37:36
Speaker 1: apartment complex and socializing in the same circle of American retirees.
37:41
Speaker 1: Lundergen said that Ruden told him she was on the
37:44
Speaker 1: run from a shadowy terrorist named Yahooda. Yahouda, she said
37:49
Speaker 1: was a former Israeli secret agent working for trustees of
37:52
Speaker 1: her murdered husband's estate. She told him they wanted her
37:55
Speaker 1: dead to gain control of her late husband's millions. Okay,
37:59
Speaker 1: so you see her weaving a little truth into her
38:02
Speaker 1: fantastical lie. She mentions a murdered husband. Well you got
38:06
Speaker 1: that part right. Margaret Ruden convicted after years on the lamb.
38:13
Speaker 1: To this day she insists she's innocent. Margaret Rudin kill
38:19
Speaker 1: her wife. Nancy Grace crib Story Siding. Goodbye friend,