Latest / WoT Spoilers / In the Three-Fold Land - Towers of Midnight chapter 39 - EP570

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In the Three-Fold Land - Towers of Midnight chapter 39 - EP570 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Speaking of brain pretzels and things that we really can't
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: answer one way or in the oven, but we can
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: certainly speculate about who is Nikomi.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Excellent segue, thank you, thank you, that was professional.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so this is the chapter, right, Like, we
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: see a little bit of Nacomi later when she's whispering
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: to Rand as he's doing the body switch. Right, we're
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: told that's Nacomi too.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: I may have missed that meta memo.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Possibly she's the one, remember when he's like She's like, yes,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: that's the right thing. You have to do that, and
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: he's like okay and then switches bodies.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just kind of memory hold that line because
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: it no sense.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: That made no sense, right, But that is supposed to
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: also be Nikomi, right, that's supposed to be this person
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: as well. Right, So she's guiding them in two places.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: So this is not her only appearance. No, even though
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: this is her only extremely obvious appearance.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the other one's more of a voice appearance. And
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: you know, you could argue, So, I mean, we can
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: start with what we were told recently about Nikomy.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, enlighten me I have no idea what
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: we were told.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Tell me, okay. So Brandon Sanderson, for the ten year
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: anniversary of this book being released, said, I will tell
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: you what Nikomi is supposed to be.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, is this in the same infodump where he told
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: us that land fears early alive? Still? Yes, yes, okay,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: I did hear about this, but I don't remember the answer,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: So continue to tell me.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: She is the avatar of the Creator in the same
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: way that Shadar Haran is the avatar of the Dark One.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: She is able to act as a voice and a
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: personage who is can speak for the Creator, right, and
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: is in some way contained by his presence. So that
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: was the intention of the author.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Huh. I do vaguely remember reading that, And yeah, ten
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: years ago. My reaction was huh or not ten years ago,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: but two years ago whenever he gave us that news,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: whatever it was.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: And obviously she existed as a person before she became
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: the avatar, right, And so she was in fact one
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: of the geni.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Yeel kind of like shot of her on was a
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Mrderal exactly tapped and made into something more. She was
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: a gen who was okay, all right.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Who was tapped, right, So, and I do remember, you know,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: my speculation has always been she's gen. Right, She's obviously
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: GENI yel between she says speculations on the page she's
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: got on the page, right, And so then the question
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: is how is she still alive? Right, because we're told
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: the gen died out, died a long time ago.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: And she's clearly not doing an eye to die three
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: thousand years or power channeler like yeah.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Right right, And so there's there's and we should talk
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: about those lines as we get to them. But reading
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: what I'm reading, I've always thought that this scene happens
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: in the world of dreams.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I thought that's pretty obvious.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually am revising my opinion on this reread. Oh,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: I think that what we have is a situation where
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: Nikomi has the same power that Ran gets when he
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: lights the pipe, the ability to manipulate reality in ways
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: that are helpful and good, and so a dreamy and
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: feel like the World's of dreams. And so we sit
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: down and there's a moment where Avianda may or may
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: not fall asleep, right, we can get there, but I
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: think for the rest of you can either say she
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: falls asleep and the rest of it happens in the
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: world of dreams, or Nikomi is manipulating the real world,
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: but something is manipulating what's going on around them. The
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: reason why I don't necessarily think she fell asleep is
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: the ending, because in the ending, she gets up, she
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: looks around, she's gone, she sits back down, she continues
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: her meal, and there doesn't seem to be any moment
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: where I can say she woke up.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, well we'll talk about.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: It, but we'll talk about it.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna ponder that as we actually get through
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: the chapter, because that's yeah, I'm not gonna have a
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: snap reaction to that. I'm gonna I'm gonna let that cook.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: That's totally fair. Yeah, so this this is all my
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: read through. That's I'm going to bring forward evidence to
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: support the various dream versus Nikomi is manipulating the real world.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, and then we're yeah, just giving her she is
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: canonically the avatar of the Creator. Clearly spends a lot
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: less time doing that than shout out her on but
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: whatever rights mine. Okay, that's hmm.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Now, I my favorite theory about her before I was
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: told that she was who was she was is that
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: she was a Gedi eel who was somehow put in
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: the stasis that was Rudian. Remember, Rudian was outside of
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: the world of dreams, right, and so this is she
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: can't channel, but she could be a dreamer. She could
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: be a wise one dreamer, and she could somehow have
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: been preserved by Rudian and the don't.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: She was just in the mists or something.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: She was in the mists type situation, right, she was
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: part of the mists.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: So when Randon and is Moodim broke all of that,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: she kind of reincarnated, so to speak, recaporealized exactly exactly.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so sort of and became in some ways,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: you know, an avatar because she's the gen because like
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: they last we saw them was during this moment when
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: they when the I sid Eye were walking away all
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: these items. Right, So I'm trying to think of some
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: way that like and as a dreamer, she could have
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: been in the dream in you know, somehow in the
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: dream in the flesh in Rudians.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, because yeah, Rudian was a very special,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: unique thing. So we can hand we have a lot
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: of special unique stuff into that. I am curious why
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: the wandering people in the desert are the only ones
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: that God talks to. Uh, yeah, I just that's pinging
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: You mean the Thirteenth Tribe.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the lost Thirteenth Tribe are the only ones that
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: God has a message to about how to make the
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: new world a better place.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: After they wandered in the desert for a long time.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and after the end of the world they are
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: going to help lead a better age future. I'm curious
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: that no other nation or culture or people merited a
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: visitor from God. It's just interesting that it's only these people.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: And you know, I'm fine with it being only Avienda
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: because she's cool, but like, I don't know, shadow her
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: On God around a lot more, a lot of different
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: factions that shadow her On was manipulating. I'm just curious
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: why good God is more selective than Bad God.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Because Hell's do an analogy for the Jewish people if
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: you don't.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it's not a problem so much as
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: just we are not doing a tropes of version here.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: We're just doing the cannon.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, rand is Jesus in so many ways.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying we're going for consistency rather than patchwork.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: He literally comes back to life after three days at
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: the end of the series, like Brandon did not go
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: subtle on the biblical references. No, I will. I will
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: say the one thing about Jordan is I think he
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: was more well balanced.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is I guess maybe kind of why this
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: is pinging for me. It's like, I feel like, if
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: we want to try to be more than just the
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: Mormon fanfic of the Bible is the real true version.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: I needed other cultures than the wandering thirteenth tribe in
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: the desert to be talked to you by God directly
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: on a mountain. Like literally, she's on the side of
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: a mountain and God comes and talks to me with
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: a special fire. Yeah, like we're doing a bit of
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Moses here.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: She literally pulls a bush out of her backpack and causes,
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: how bush going on in the fire? Yeah, it's yeah,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: it's a little on the nose. You're right.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I could have used this sea folk having something similar
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: and it being like, you know, a deep cut on
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: a Polynesian myth. You know, I could have used a
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: little bit more if if Sanderson wanted to get away
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: from just doing the Christian fanfic, for the eleveny billionth time.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Oh well, it's fine, it's what you chose to do.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Should I read us in to the chapter that we've
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: been talking about for like fifteen minutes.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: Let's go through it in order as opposed to in total.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, chapter thirty nine in the Threefold Land and are
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: symbol is the IEO spears. For reasons that should be obvious,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Avianda felt right again. There was a calming perfection to
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: the Threefold land. Wetlanders thought the landscape's uniform colors drab,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: but Avianda found them beautiful, simple browns and tans. They
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: were familiar and dependable, not like the wetlands, where both
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: the landscape and the weather were different. Every time you
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: turned around. Aveanda ran forward in the darkening night, each
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: foot falling on dusty ground. For the first time in
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: many months, she felt alone. In the wetlands. She always
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: felt as if she was being watched by some enemy
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: she could not see or attack. Scene set and I
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: already have an issue with his writing here immediately, Yeah,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: go for it. In the book five six, somewhere back there,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: I don't remember which book, one of the Supergirls. I
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: think it's a lane thinks about how maybe it's a gwain.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: Someone thinks about how the threefold lands nnive nnive's thinking
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: about how the threefold Land always looks the same. I
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: think must be there in the dream or something. And
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: she's like, God, just all looks the same. And then
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: she thinks, but she'd heard and maidens say the same
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: of the wetlands, that the wetlands all looks the same.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: And here Sanderson is saying, no, no, no, the threefold
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Land is all the same. And I yield absolutely recognized
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: all of the very differences in the wetlands, and I'm
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: just like, my dude, my dude, please get out of
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: your head and into the head of the actual people
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: that you're writing.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Right, they have one hundred different names for different kinds
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: of sands, whereas the wetlanders see it as just sand, right,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: and vice versa.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: And they see all trees as.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Trees trees right, with no variation.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: All water that flows across the surface is a river, right.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Like there's just Sanderson's writing like a white man.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: He is not as good at perspective. I think that's
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: one of the things that I see in these books
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: is that it's all from Sanderson's perspective, it's not from
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: one of the things.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Jordan was a white man too, and he wrote the
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: line about how you'll see the wetlands totally different than the.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm not even sure I want to call it
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: by the fact that he's a white man so much
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: as the fact that he's not as good as a
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: perspective writing. He just isn't as good at getting in
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: characters heads. He never has been.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. It's like, it's it's clearly because
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: if Jordan is as much a white man as Sanderson,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: but yeah, it's in his perspective. I feel like I'm
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: with Sanderson, whereas Jordan, I genuinely only felt like I
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: knew Jordan by my tenth three reader was like actually
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: meeting the man behind all the characters, where as Sanderson,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: I'm like, hello, you're right here, You're in my face.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: It's like when I realized almost all of the references
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: to women's bosoms were from Matt's povs, and all the
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: references to dresses were from women's povs. And like the
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: way he talks, the way these characters talk about other
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: characters depends on their pov and their preferences and the
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: things that they notice first. And Jordan is so good
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: at writing that. And Sanderson writes from this omnipotent narrator
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: perspective where yes, he can see the character's thoughts, but
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: he also sees everything else going on, and he's telling
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: it from the narrator's perspective, not the character's perspective.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: I think that was also something that Georgi arr Martin
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Wright never finished his fucking books, but he wrote really
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: good perspectives. Every chapter started with that character's name, and
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: whatever he told, he told from that character's perspective. And
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: he was very, very good at that, and I respected
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: the hell out of it. And I think that's why
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: he and Jordan were I call them contemporaries, not because
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: I think they wrote similar stories, but because they both
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: wrote incredibly good POV narratives.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Well they're also literally contemporary. Well yeah, wise, but yeah,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: they are very paired in that way. They're writing in
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of the same not the same color palette,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: but like the same concept of oil paints. Right, they're
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: both oil painters, right, even if they're using different color palettes,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: because Man Martin and Jordan very different world views. But
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: like there is a certain texture, because I mean, yeah,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I read of the first few Game of Thrones books
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: before I decided I hated the world and bounced. But
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: you're right, every perspective was very much It started out
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: telling you who it was, and then it stayed in
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: that voice until the next chapter, and then it switched,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: and it was very easy to feel like I was
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: in a different person's head. Eventually hated all of their heads,
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: so I left.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: But that was the point, and in a lot of ways,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: that's that's what made Martin so remarkable is that he
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: wrote characters that weren't always likable, and it was just like, oh, yeah,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: these nuanced characters that like, you're not gonna love because
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: they're terrible people some times. And that was I think
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: a reaction to something like Jordan, which was something like
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: the idea that yes, you're in these people's heads, but
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: they're all good people. They're all trying to do their best. Right.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know Jordan was writing a much more classically
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Tolkien style hero. But yeah, so anyway, it's as Marzapan said,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Sanderson's Avianda feels kind of alien compared to Jordan's Auvianda.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: We didn't get that many Avianda povs, but it's it's
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: not as egregious as the Matt transition, but it kind
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: of reminds me of the Matt transition of like we're
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: just in different boots altogether.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: This feels like this chapter was written by a Lane
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: after hanging out, after being told about it by Aviendo.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Oh. I like that. This is a Lane's recollection of
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Avianda's story as told too Loyal, right, because Loyal is
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: interviewing a Lane, and so she's relating this story because
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Avianna is like busy or whatever, and Loyal really need
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: that interview this day. So it's like, fine, near sister,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: close enough, just tell me. I am going with that interpretation.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: I like it because all these books are written by Loyal.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: We know that.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, like people didn't sweat enough in the wetlands.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I'm like, dude, people still sweat in the wetlands.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I did like that because of the I'm
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: sure a Scandadavians of the audience here could back me
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: up the finished tradition of sauna.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Sure no sweat tents.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, there's a lot of cultural and medical evidence
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: that doing sweat lodge sweat tent type stuff is actually
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: much much healthier. And when you think about how Randland,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: the basic tolkien Shire, classic England situation, those were filthy
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: people who bathed but once a year, right, These were
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the germ ridden, nonsense people who poisoned too continents with
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: their farts. So I kind of dig the idea that
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: there's people who know how to like actually clean themselves
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: and be healthy, and then there's these disease riddled city dwellers. Like, yes,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: we're post apocalyptic in such a way that like the
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: concept of germ theory and indoor plumbing does still exist
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: in some pockets. But Jordan was drawing off of, like,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: you know, an early colonial period for a lot of
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: his initial rand Land cultures. So I mean, you look
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: at their historical parallels, their lack of doing sweat tents
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: is actually it's a solid burn. I think I don't
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: like saunas, to be clear, because I hate being overheated.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: It's like a whole sensory thing for me. I have
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: done saunas, I know what I'm missing out on. But yeah,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: I was like, I mean, these there are probably some
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: filthy cities that she's been seeing, you know, Kyrie in
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: at Boudar and Camlin like, they'd probably kind of filthy
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: compared to you know her world.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: I do. The only way I likes on is if
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I can do cold hot cold hot cold hot, Right,
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: if I have something cold that I can plunge into.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, that's the only way to do it
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: for sure. For sure. When I got taught how to
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: do it, it was a stream fed like pool. Thing
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: was like a built up like hot tubs style thing
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: out of an old wine barrel, I think, but it
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: was just a creek that was flowing in and then
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: out again. And yeah, it's a shocking, amazing, exhilarating. I'm
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: fine never doing it again. I know what I'm missing
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: out on. It's fine.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: My wife has enjoyed many a hot spring that pop
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: up around here.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the hot pool and then the cold pool.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: I do if I can. If they're both naturally occurring.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: It does feel wrong to do one and not the other.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Exactly exactly oka.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Rolling in snow. I've never done it where there was
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: snow to roll in, but I could see that being amazing.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Flinging your hot body just into a snow bank.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: I used to when I was swimming. I'd get so
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: hot and overheated from swimming that the pool wasn't enough
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: to keep me cool. And I'd run out in this
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: winter because it's a winter sport, and I would occasionally
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: run out in my speedo into the snow.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Bank like give me hype, other man, literally.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Grab handfuls of snow and rub it on my naked body,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: and I would be I'd steam. I'd have so much
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: heat coming off of me, and I was I'm mendentoriously
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: hot person. Rights one of the reasons I swam instead
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: of doing a lot of other sports because I would
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: overheat so easily that I literally would would collapse from
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: running outside, like I couldn't do it. Like I'm just
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know what it is about me. I think
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I'm just a dense little you know, nugget or whatever.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Marine mammal built for northern climbs.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Maybe I was born in Nova Scotia, so maybe
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: I acclimated to the colder weather as a baby or something.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I've heard all sorts of theories. Whatever it is. I
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: generate a shit on a heat and I need water
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: cooling if I'm going to be doing a sport.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I cannot deal with heat. I've always run hot.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I have so much childhood trauma around being overheated, Like
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: and I was born in the Malama Valley, so I
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: don't know how how to explain that, but it's just nope,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: my thermostat is not my friend.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: I'd spent three years in Texas being and where they like,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: didn't you know water, You don't need water, You're fine. Yeah,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Like water breaks were regulated.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: It's amazing we lived through our childhoods I sear.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: I know, it's ridiculous. I mean, you tell the kids
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: now that, like my my access to water was restricted
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: to the kid in like one hundred degree weather and
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: they're just like, oh my god, Like you would have
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: people standing with the water fountains counting one, two, three next,
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: that's messed up. Yeah, and water bottles were forbidden and
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: I didn't see a water bottles I was in high school.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: And then it was just like one girl carrying it
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: and everyone.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Was like, is she allowed to do that? Wow? That's
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: different from now, back to Avianda.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Back to Aviando. Yeah, she made her camp at the
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: side of a tremendous stone, not really a mountaintop, but
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: sort of a stone behind me.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: I sort of assumed it was on a slope of them.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know why. I just imagine peel like the
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: overhang cliff thing I editorialize visually a lot.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: She's eating a shellback. I it's just like a crab.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Where's the crab going to find water? I assume it
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: was a turtle.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Where's the turtle going to find water?
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Well, turtles are desert creatures A lot of times tortoises, I.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Would assume a tortoise.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not clear on the difference between the two.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: I'm not that kind of a nerd, but I don't
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: see desert crabs being a thing.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: I like shell back better. Yeah, well, I mean scorpion, right,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I mean there are shelled creatures that live.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they are all arachnids, but they've taken very
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: different evolutionary paths. Tortoises of the land on any ones,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you Fucci. Yeah, so I assumed it was a tortoise.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I assumed it was a desert tortoise. I'm not entirely
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: sure if there are desert tortoises, but that was what
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I assumed it was.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: I think for me eating Sanderson's work, where like everything's crabs.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Sure, all our return to crabs. This is true? Uh huh,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: the carconization of Sanderson's universe. I guess it could also
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: be an armadillo thinking about creatures that live in dry
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: environments and are good at conserving water and are Shelley
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: could be an armadillo and meaty. Yeah, hunted for people
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: by people for food.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I like armidillo. I think that's what I want to
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: go with.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Sure, whatever I mean, I'm sure that the endangered species
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: actually need not apply in the Threefold Land. You know,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: it makes me cringe because I know how it works
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: in the real world, But I'm sure it's fine for
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: the ie.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: And so a lot of this thought and everything sort
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: of comes to a head right before she sits down,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: where she says each day in the wetlands made them weaker.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Her people would need to return to the Threefold Land.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: She herself was an excellent example. She had grown soft there.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: How can one not grow soft in that place? Right?
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: This this central idea, Right, this is why she's enjoying
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: thinking about and enjoying dresses and sweat and baths instead
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: of sweat tents and being like I've enjoyed all these
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: things and that's making me weak, and so we need
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: to get back to the threefold. Land is sort of
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: where she's going into this conversation.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Got to go back to nature because of this modern decadence.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: She's really flirting with going all trad I e.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Here blood Eye, which actually Luddites were more given a
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: bad name because they were just unionists.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Dude. I was literally lecturing my mom on this like
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: an hour and a half ago, because Luddites came up
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: on the podcast The Use of So podcast, and I
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: always be like, Okay, did you know actually blah blah blah,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: because because the Luddites were actually particularly focused on weaving technology,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: it was looms that was like one of the major focus.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: So it's relevant to the whole use to See story.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: But yes, yes, Ludites were. Actually there's a great podcast
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: from cool people who did cool stuff called How the
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: ludde Almost Saved Us All. It's a really cool history
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: of the Luddites and also like a fun sort of
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: speculative like if they had succeeded, if their goals had
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: actually been achieved, this is how everything about the Industrial
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Revolution would have been different, and how that would change
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: the world today. And it's just like, yeah, using them
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: as a pejorative term is very inaccurate. They were on
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: the money a lot in the.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Same way that we look at AI and go, hey,
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: we don't want AI to just benefit people at the
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: top so that they make more money and we're all unemployed.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: We would like AI to benefit everybody, and so we
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: want to pass some regulation so that when AI does
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: become this thing that happens, you can't just get rid
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: of people's jobs and you actually have to share the
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: wealth with them and allow people to work less if
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: they can use AI to make their job better, and like,
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: we'd like to pass them something that does that. And
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: that's kind of what the lot I's wanted to do,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: only with weaving technology, to say, hey, this technology is
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: coming away.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Of the mechanization, taking away cottage industries and regular artisanal labor, and.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like instead of putting us out of work,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: we would like to share in the profits. And for that,
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: everyone said, oh, oh, we're going to villainize you and
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: make you seem like you're idiots who hate technology and
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: have no desire to ever work on the future and
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: are holding back the future, when in reality they just
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: wanted to, you know, not be unemployed.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they wanted progress to be for everyone, not just
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: the wealthy view. But now they're just a butt of
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: a joke now.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: So after thinking all this Allanda settled back and closed
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: her eyes for a moment, letting the day's fatigue melt away.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: And I think there's a very real argument to be
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: made that in that moment she falls asleep and everything
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: that follows is in the world of dreams.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: That's how I have interpreted it.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: I have interpreted it up to this point. But again,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: at the end of this chapter, there's no point that
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I could find where she would quote unquote wake up.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Well, I was just figured she went back to sleep
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: within the dream and.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Totally possible, right, So that is certainly a possibility to
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: consider going forward.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: I like your interpreted better though. It's more fun. She
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: has the rand power, she has the power of the
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: dream in the real world because more tapped into the
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: creator or power I don't know. That is more fun
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: and satisfying to me.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: And it fits what we've been told by the author.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Which is a loose end to have tied up, which
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: I do like.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, so a sound came from outsider camp Ivan to
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: open her eyes and jumped up embracing the source. Whether
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: you think she's jumping up here in this moment in
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: the world of dreams, or you know, just in the
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: real world, she's opening her eyes and jumping up right like.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: The thing that makes me think it's not necessarily the
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: world of dreams is she had to weave a globe
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: of light and the woman is standing in the darkness nearby.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: We know in the world of dreams everything's lit up evenly.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: The light comes from nowhere, but the light is.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Everywhere unless it's like a dream dream tell everyond Riodd
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: has that. But if she was in like a dream
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: dream that this woman was invading, there could be different
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: lighting rules.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: So that's also that could be where she is that
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: they're not tell her runner Od, they're just in Avienda's dream.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: I think that's also yeah, And this is a dream walker.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Right, that's the possibility. But it would mean that she
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: had to bring Avianda into her dream or that she
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: entered Avianda's dream, both of which are more complicated endeavors
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: and sets of skills. Not that I'm sure she's very skilled.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: I'm sure she's extremely skilled, but it is.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: More work, and that would mean that we never necessarily
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: see her in the real world because we only hear
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: her voice in Rand's head. So this could be somebody
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: again who existed in Rudian and tell her Unriod and
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: has never necessarily crossed back over into the real world.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Avanda also has the thought that she's pleased that she
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: reached for the power instead of her spears, which I
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: thought was an interesting parallel to what Agwain has been
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: going through with reaching for the one power versus reaching
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: for the dream right and using the dream power. And
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: it's just like, yeah, everyone's upgrading their skill set. It's
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: not about one power being better, one kind of weapon
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: being better. It's about broadening your arsenal and changing your reflexes.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And they're both going through that arc.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Okay, So descriptions of Nikomi dark skirt, hand blouse in
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: a shawl, right, kertschief on her graying hair, typical Wise
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: one clothing, She had furrowed skin, right, So we know
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: she's not ageless and she could not channel Avienda could
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: sense that easily. So these are the important parts. So
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: she's definitely not nice at I probably not not a
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: wise one. Who can channel possibly a wise one who's
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: a dream walker.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she even doesn't necessarily read as a wise one,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: she's just wearing necessarily normal clothing. And then she addresses
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Avianda as a wise one, being very respectful, like she's
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: not having the bearing of a wise one, even though
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: she has some of the clothes and the general age gravitas.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: She's acting more like a regular ieel citizen rather than
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: someone with a particular status, which I think probably is
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: reflective of how the Gens culture probably was less like
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: socially stratified and the roles were less set compared to
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: what Avienda is dealing with, because right, the gen are
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: a different branch of the family.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Right, but she talks like an ice, like an aeel. Right, yeah,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: she's no doubt in nail, Right, this is may I
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: share water with you, you know, finding honor, Like, there's
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: no doubt. This is someone who's a naieel. But she
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: has no weapons, right, that's pointed out.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: She has no weapons. She doesn't carry herself like a
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: wise one. She's not dressed like a warrior in any way,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: shape or form.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah, she she was middle aged and she
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: carried no weapons.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and she keeps deferring to Avianda like she's a
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: wise one, which no wise one would ever do. But again,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: it's like the gen probably had a very different structure
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: of who wise ones were, right because they died out
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: near the beginning of the Aeel's culture really developing into
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: what it is, right, Avienda is three thousand years or
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: two and a half thousand years deep into something that was,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: you know, just barely forming when Nacomi's people, you know,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: faded from the.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Earth, right, and they've been gone. Do we know exactly
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: when they faded, because like when the the last of
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: the more around during the creation of Ruidian.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the very very first vision that Rand has is
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: when they're meeting at Ruidian to make the agreement, and
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: there is still two Eyes to Die that are like
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: cold with how old they are, right, they have blankets
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: across their laps because their circulation is so so poor.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: In a farther back in the timeline vision, one of
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: his ancestors season Eyes to Die, who talks about how
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: there's a some somehow there's a mention of the founding
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: of Tarvalan farther back. So I've always figured it's like
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: about five hundred years after the breaking, Like some eyes
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: to die are still managing to hold on because they
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: don't the binders yet, right, Like really powerful eyes tod
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: I could live to be like eight hundred years old.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: So if you had like two hundred year old eyesid
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Island the breaking happened, she could still be alive five
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: hundred years later with the ieal taking care of her.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think technically the gen have been gone
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: for closer to two and a half thousand years rather
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: than three thousand.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Years, agreed, But thousands of years, right, we're not talking
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: about Yeah.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely too long for her to have lived through
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: natural means. There is some whibbley wobbly timey whymy spacey bendy.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Even as a channeler, right, she's not so Yeah. Then
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: there's a couple of things where she pours Avianda's water
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: into the tea kettle and goes and it feels like
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: she doesn't use it. It's like tiny little water skin
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: fills up the tea kettle. Wait a minute, you know,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: doesn't feel like there's enough water.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Fire builds up extra fast, the shell abut cooks extra fast.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: And also Nakomi's asking some very ritual feeling questions. Right,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: she shows up, she likes, let me pour you some tea,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: and then she's asking, was your apprenticeships long? Are you
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: from the ones who went west? What do you think
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: of There's just this sense of like testing you and
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: like getting you into giving the real answer. I don't know.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: I feel like she's every question she asks is preparing
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Offanda to come to the conclusion that she's ultimately going
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: to gide her into us, all leading questions, like Nacomi
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: knows where she's guiding this conversation from the jump, and.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Can we talk about what she pulls out of her
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: backpack A teapot, some branches to build up the flame,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: some roots, a pan to cook the roots.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: It's like a ceramic cooking pot.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, It's like, how much stuff is she
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: pulling out of this pack?
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, Mary Poppins, Yeah, exactly.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: So just little hints that maybe that she can pull
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: out of the back back whatever she needs.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: It makes no sense for her to have material possessions.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: If she's a recently reconstituted wisp of a ghost, it
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: makes sense that she can just manipulate the fabric of
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: reality to be what she needs, rather than that she
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: literally found a supply pack that hasn't destroyed itself, or
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: she went to a hold and snug some other No,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: she's just manipulating the threads of reality, or we're in
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: a dream space where you're effectively manipulating the threads of reality.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: Exactly right, right either way, Like, I feel like those
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: are the two sides. Right, either way, she's manipulating the
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: reality around them, whether it's in a dream world or
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: whether I and again part of me that thinks that
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: it's now part of the real world and she's manipulating it.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Is that she's Avianda gets fed, Avianda drinks the water.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: If it is in the dream, I don't think that
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: would have happened.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was also one of my thoughts is that
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: she really has a lot of thoughts that hinge around
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: the deliciousness of the food and the eating of the food.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: And I'm just like, dream food isn't real. It feels satisfying,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Like I know that you can feel satisfied by dream food,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: but I don't think that it's allowed to have the
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: same cosmological impact if it's just fake fee food in
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: order for it to like mean something to her revelation.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: I think it needs to be realer. And so yeah,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: it makes me like the idea that this is in
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: the real world, because then the food is real.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: And yet something about Nacomi makes me think she's never
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: been to the wetlands.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Oh absolutely not right.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Tell me, are the wetlands as glorious as many say?
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Rivers so wide you cannot see the other side, Plants
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: so full of water they burst when squeeze. She's I
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: think genuinely asking, like, I have never been to the wetlands.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Well, those are the kinds of myths that the IEO
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: have when we first meet them in like book two,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Like that's how they were approaching the wetlands. Like this
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: is yeah, someone who original Nacomi was born in Ruidian
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: as it was getting built and never got to leave.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: And yeah, she's never seen the wetlands. She is the
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: epitome of the IEAL pre contact with the wetlands headspace.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: And then she pulls out Avienda's favorite like mother cooked
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: root and like just happens to have them.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Uh huh. It tastes just like her mom made it.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, yeah, that's a spirit guardian for sure.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: This is this is a divine messa of some variety.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: The fire has more coals than it should have all
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, because she needs those coals to cook
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: the roots better. Right, Like reality is changing around this
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: woman like without a doubt, and.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: The food is cooking faster, like it's just yeah no,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: and it's doing all the things necessary to put Alvianda
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: into a receptive state of mind for a big old
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: brain twitzle brain pretzel twist.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Which is basically by saying we as a people, right,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: there's this original sin, there's this mythos of the iel.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: They sinned, they were sent to the Threefold Land to
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: be punished, to be prepared and to be prepared for
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: the fight in the last battle. Right, But then you
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: pair that with geta and the fact that whenever you
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: are you commit penance for something, you then have to
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: forget and forgive the sin. And so if you go
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: back to the threefold Land, are you not just continuing
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: to be punished for something that is absolved? Are you
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: not being air Right? We've seen that over and over again,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: where if someone continues to ask to be punished after
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: everyone else is like, dude, you've done your penance. They're
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: scene as arrogant and trying to get too much cheat
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: and to get one up. Pride prideful, prideful, thank you,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: that's the right word. Yeah. And so Nacomi is basically
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: making Avianda see returning to the Threefold land as a
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: prideful thing to do rather than a good thing to
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: do for the people.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Right, which I agree. The IEA have a very specific
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: culture for a very specific purpose, and to go back
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: to that after they successfully fulfill their mission would be
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: so demeaning of the entire point.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Right right, and like they no longer you know, I
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: think Ruark says it right, Like, I have blood feuds
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: with these people, and if we go back to the
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: way we were, I'm going to have to kill friends
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: who I've become close with in this battle. I don't
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: want to go back to a feuding tribal society that
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: doesn't make sense for them, and to survive in the waste,
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: you need to be a tribal feuding society.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So maybe you've earned the right to take on
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: the new hazards of the wetlands. And I also love
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: how she turns around the whole like thing of if
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the wetlands are so soft white. Did we need the
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: better part of two and a half thousand years getting
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: our asses beat by the waste to get ready for Yeah,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: maybe the wetlands are in fact just as terrible and
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: dangerous of a place as anywhere else. And the concept
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: of softness is weird and silly and useless in actually
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: navigating what it means to be a person in the world.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: And it's just cultural differences that you see as soft,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: like baths versus sweat.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Tents exactly like they're not soft.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: One's not better than the other. Despite your argument earlier
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: in the.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Podcast, well, I'm just actual bathing is fine. Bathing once
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: a year and not understanding germ theory is not fine,
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: and saunas are better if you don't have theory. But yeah,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: it's the idea that wearing silk is bad. It's just
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: like what cultural chauvinism is That that's silly, But it's
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: also like an important question to wrestle with of like
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: what does it mean if we've actually paid our restitution?
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: What does it mean if we've actually fulfilled our toe?
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: What does that mean? You've spent thousands of years shaping
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: yourself around that you can't just flip a switch and
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: know what you're doing with yourself. After this takes thought.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: This is going to take a counsel of elders wrestling
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: with it for a generation just to get anywhere. I mean, yeah,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: we got the dragon's piece, but like that is top
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: level management. The actual rubber meets the road application is
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: going to take a generation or two just to figure out.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, and then back to the question of who is
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Nikomi right, because Abendev asks a question. She says, tell me, Nikomy,
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: where is it you travel? Which sept is your own?
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: And we get this cryptic response, I am far from
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: my roof, the woman said, wistful, yet not far at all.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Perhaps it is far from me. I can cannot answer
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: your question, apprentice, for it is not my place to
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: give this truth. So cryptac I am far from my roof,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: yet not far at all. So I mean again, if
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: we talk about Rudy and as her root, as her roof, right,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: physically she's not far from it, but temporally she's thousands
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: of years removed from.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Her own exactly geographically pretty close. But everyone she's known
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: and loved as long since blown away to dust.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Right, perhaps it is far from me. It is far
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: in the past, is kind of how I interpret.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: That, but also in the future, because the wheel of
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: time turns.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Sure, And then I cannot answer your question, apprentice, for
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: it is not my place to give this truth.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: It's giving Burgita and the precepts in Telerenriod.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Sure, right, who set those rules?
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Who's enforcing those rules?
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: The Creator? It has to be.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it sounds like God stuff. It sounds like
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: divine cosmic truths that are at the level of physics
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: for their immovableness.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: When you act like why has the Creator not intervened,
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: it's like, I mean, I think the horn of Leer
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: might be the Creator intervening. Right, Those are who's champions.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: His champions, the lights Champions, the.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Lights Champions, the champions of the Creator. Right, blowing that
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: horn is summoning the champions of the light and summoning
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: the aid of the Creator, which you know is Nikomi somehow.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Then there was the theory, right, is Nikomi somehow the
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: hero of the.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Horn who's tied geographically to this area? So the horn
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: blew and she's just been chilling for the last eighteen months.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Right, So I mean we can look when we're done here,
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: I want to go back through the Nikomi theory section
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: of the way he and talk about a few of
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: those that we miss. But yeah, hero the Horn is
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: definitely also one of those possibilities of why is this
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: person who's clearly genieel come back in the future. Well,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: if she's linked to the horn the horn was blown,
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: she could be you know, in the world of Dreams
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: summon back, or she could be you know, a hero
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: who's violating the precepts.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: This is also if she's in the World of Dreams,
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: is she one of those heroes who's hanging out in
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: the in the world of Dreams, who's doing like Brigita,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: but maybe with permission and breaking the precepts, with permission
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: from the creator.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Right, Because it's okay if you're talking to Mary Magdalen
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: the night before the execution, right, I guess.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: So. Yeah, a little more about the argument about you know,
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: the ideal can meet their toe through fighting the last battle.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Then they have to figure out what to do next.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not that you have to stay in the wetlands
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: or go back to the threefold land, but you have
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: to choose a new path. You can't wind the clock
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: back whatever, you're doing. It has to be a moving forward,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: and you know, Avienda on the brink of being a
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: wise one. That's probably going to be the central question
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: for her in the next generation or two of wise ones,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: which you know she will live to see because she's
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: a channeler who's not bound by the oath rod. Yeah,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: with this as like the opening thesis statement of her
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: career as a wise one is it's a solid move.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: And so Nakomi feeds Aviendo. I just noticed this for
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: the first time. Avianda realizes how delicious the food was.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Nacomi says, if you'll excuse me, I need to see
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: to nature, which on one level, on a surface level,
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: sounds like oh I have to go pee.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Right, that's what she is implying.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: But read the words literally, I need to go see
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: to nature. I need to go take care of the
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: natural world. If she's the one who's in somehow part
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: of the Creator controlling God, because she's literally God, she
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: has to go see to nature, all of nature.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: I need to go back to tending the garden that
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: is the world exactly.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: No, I mean the way she talks is so old
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: timey and elegant, and it sounds like a god trying
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: to play human. Yeah, yeah, it's I like it a lot.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: I am still a little confused by only desert Mary
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Magdalene gets to talk to God. But it's fine. I
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: like it so much better than Sanderson's Mormon.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: That's all the explanation you need.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: And that's fine because I like that this is something
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: different than regular un til I run Riodd stuff. I
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: like that this is the closest we get to a
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: parallel of Rand and the Pipe that feels a lot
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: more narratively satisfying than she just had a really vivid
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: experience until I run Riodd and to me, that.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Brings it full circle. This foreshadows Rand's abilities, right, the
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: ability to which.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Apparently she's there to help him go through that transition.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: So it really ties together, It really ties together.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And and so essentially this scene was created by
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: Brandon Sanderson to give context to the scene where someone
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: talks to Rand, right, because Jordan wrote that. Jordan wrote
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: that someone talks to Rand and in the transition he
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: hears a woman's voice, and so Sanderson created Nikomi and
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: this scene to help give context to that scene that
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Jordan wrote.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's important and metacognitive, structural load bearing reasons to
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: make the headcanon fit where it fits.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, so he has said that, you know, part of
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: the reason why because he didn't know He doesn't know
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: who that woman is, and so he created Nikomi to
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: be that woman because Jordan didn't explain it in his notes.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, good for him.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: You know, in some ways we can say Nacomy is
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: this Avatar creator because that's who Sanderson says she is
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: and he's an author. On the other hand, we can
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: also be like, you know what, Nikomi doesn't have to
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: be that because Jordan didn't define what Nikomi or what
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: that woman was at the end of the series. Who talks.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I am firmly okay with everything Sanderson wrote,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: simply being a higher grade of fanfic that is much
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: more malleable. Whereas the canon that I have to make
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: my stuff conform to is what Jordan wrote, except for
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: where I decided that Jordan was also wrong. But like
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: mainly to do with lesbians, I allow myself that as
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: a treat it's.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: Possible that Jordan may not have been an expert on lesbians.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: It is possible, it is possible, But I do feel
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: like when we have Sanderson saying, this is me bridging
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: the gaps that Jordan left me. It is worth knowing
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: what the original structural stuff is and what the bridging
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: material is. And yeah, if we want to go with
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: the your mileage may vary, then yeah, I'm okay with
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Sanderson's stuff being a little more open to interpretation. But
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: you know, I think he did a good job not
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: leaving us totally hanging. If there had just been that
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: voice with no explanatory chapter, that would have sucked. We
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: did need something like this for all the poles that
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: were poking in it, like we needed something. We needed
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: someone to be that voice, whether or not he was cracked, right.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: And I definitely have always thought this person was Geni Eel,
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: which he does confirm right originally, Like that is very
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: obvious from the context clues. Oh yeah, and so I've
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: never had a problem with that, adding on the avatar
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: of the creator she was going to be something else.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: That's fine. It's not my favorite explanation, but it's what
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: he wrote.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's she's something unique. Yes, she's definitely something unique.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: You can come up with a handful of different things
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: that being one of them. She is singular in terms
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: of supernatural characters that we've interacted with.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: She's the Tom Bombadil of this story.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, Coomy Bombadil. That's what we're going with
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Tom comy.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: So yeah, Avianda, you know, waits for her to come
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: back from seeing to nature.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, she'll be at that for a minute.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And when she gets up and looks for her,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: doesn't find her. But when she comes back, all of
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: her stuff is gone again, and like that stuff never
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: existed in the first place.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: But also, she ate a real meal right right, She
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: doesn't wake up gnawing hunger paints because she imagined the
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: whole meal. Like, so, uh, this is complicated, it's tricky.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: She upon returning the fire right, she saw Nakomi's pack
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: and plate were gone. She waited up for time, but
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: the woman did not return. Eventually, Avianda went to sleep
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: feeling troubled. So if you're saying she's in the world
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: of dreams, you're saying she went to sleep in the
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: world of dreams.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: I've done that myself. I have woken up and gone
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: to sleep in my dreams. Definitively.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: I still don't think you can do that in the
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: world of dreams, though I've never seen anyone go to
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: sleep in the world of dreams.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: But maybe it's not the world of dreams. Maybe it's
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: her dream that Nacomi had entered.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: Fair Okay, fair enough, that's the only.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Way to cause you're right, Teleron Riot has very specific rules.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: We spend a lot less time with people interacting in
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: their own dreams. So but yeah, I like the idea
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: that she's got RAN's pipe abilities and she fed Avian
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: actual food.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: That seems to be where I'm coming down on as
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: a final theory.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I like that better. It gives me the warm fuzzies inside.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: So I'm going with it.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: And that's the canon as far as we are aware
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: by the author. So yeah, so this is one of
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: those cases where we agree with what he wrote.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I avatar of the Creator or not.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: I don't think this was a dream. I prefer that
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: this is somehow something that perfectly connects with Rand's pipe press.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Rand is not necessarily the app Creator's avatar either, but
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: he has the ability to like the pipe with his mind.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: And this gives the gen purpose. Right, The gen existed
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: so that Nakomi could fix the iel after the last
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: battle right, so that Avianda would change the columns and
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: would come back with this theory and change the peace
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: treaty and make the Ideal what they become, which is
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: the police force of the world. The gen had a purpose.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: What was that purpose? The gen existed partially to create Rudian,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: but partially so that this woman could come back and
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: change the future of the Ideal and become, you know,
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: get them full circle again, right, and like Marsa Pan says,
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: maybe eventually become pacifist again. Go from enforcing the law
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: to enforcing peace, to worshiping peace to becoming you know,
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: becoming going back to the gen.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, if they could actually be peacekeepers who will
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: kick your ass to keep the peace, I mean, yeah,
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: that could end up bringing about a much chiller world
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: if they get religiously devoted to I'm only violent when
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: you're violent first, and they just help the world organize itself.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: That's a really lovely way to imagine that circle connecting
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: back to their original purpose. I also like the first
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: time that I read this, and every time I've read
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: it since, I always kind of had cannon that Nacomi
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: volunteered to stay behind somehow in the creation of the Dome.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: They were like, Okay, we have like so many dream
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: Walkers and you know we're all gonna die and blah
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: blah blah, but we want someone to or maybe multiple
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: someonees to stay behind in the mists. And you know,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: when this phase of the prophecy kicks in, then you
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: can be ghosts and talk to people and make stuff happen.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Like there's some sort of she was not randomly chosen,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: she volunteered for because that would just be even more
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: tragically gen right to be like, yeah, I'll live with
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: the existential dread of still being awake while everyone else
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: is long dead. I'll do it for our people. I'll
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: do it for our descendants. It's entirely heart canon on
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: my part, But I just like the idea that she's
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: so jen that she chose us. But that's just me
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: with that. I think we've hit the end of the chapter,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: which means we have some theories about Nacomi to talk about.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, all right, so just basically before the Sanderson reveal,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: there was of course a set of theories, and some
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: of these are.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: So after the books came out, before he gave that
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: tenure revealed exactly exactly.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: There's ten years where we had speculation, right, And so
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: some of these I find ridiculous, Right, some of these
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: I feel like we can dismiss from the context of
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: the of the book.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Right, She's not a tyrant high lady obviously.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: Right, Right. So the first one says an isaid I
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: from the Age of Legends. Nah, Right, So one of
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: those I said, I who was there for the building,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: are rude in Maybe she used the portal stones to
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: go to a different world where time moved differently, maybe
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: a different tarran greal, But we know she can't channel canonically,
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: and assuming she's not masking, right, we're gonna get dismissed,
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: Like that is possible for all of these, But we're
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: assuming she's not masking her ability in that moment, right, sure.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just too many twists. We can't handle it.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Our brains will explode.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: That's just too ridiculous to be Like, why would she
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: even hide her ability to channel from Avianda? Like I
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: can't find any reason for that. So yeah, but she
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: would not have the ageless face if she was from
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: the Age of Legends, she wouldn't have sworn on the rods,
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: So possible.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: But she talks like an a eel. She's got the
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: cultural bearing of an a eel, not of an ice stye.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Second, an agent of the creator. So that was certainly
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: one of the options that people thought about, right, for
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: all the reasons that we've.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Got shy of Haran, we need someone on our side.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: Sure the food tastes really good, she's the pair of
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: the roots faster. It seems to be the manipulation of
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: physical laws, similar to ransability to light a pipe. There
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: is an agent of the dark One. A bubble of good.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: If there's bubble of evils, could there be bubbles of good?
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: This is very calm for a bubble event good or evil.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: But sure bubble of good is kind of like an
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: inverse shid of her on. Yeah, why not for me?
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: The world is created by the Creator, so there wouldn't
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: be a bubble of good because that would just be
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: the bubble of the existence. Evil is corrupting what it
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: already exists. Plus that's coming out from the Dark One's prison.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: The Creator's not imprisoned. Like. There's just lots of reasons why.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: I don't like that theory, no, but it's it's a
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: logical one. If you're just flushing out every single permutation
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: of the logic. I see the argument, even though I
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: don't think it's valid.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: A hero of the Horn, right, so she closed her eyes.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: A hero of the Horn could be chilling out until
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: I run Riod could be breaking the rules just like
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: Brigida's Silver Bow did.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Or maybe not breaking the rules. Maybe this is what
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: her role as a hero was always meant to be,
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: and this is exactly what she was supposed to.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: Do, and so she could be one of the heroes
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: living until I run Riodd. The horn doesn't even have
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: to be blown, because Zavianda could be asleep until you know, and.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: This could be, you know, just like Brigida.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: Just like Brigida. Right coming with that, specifically, they they
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: named her as Ammerce. I'm aresu as a possibility.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: I believe as an alternate female dragon if I'm remembering
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: my Metal Lord correctly.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, you are spot on that she was in one
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: of the turnings of the wheel. But then she wouldn't
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: be gen. And it's very obviously this is someone who
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: is ideal, not someone who existed from a different turning
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: of the wheel to.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Me, right, because the gen exists in a world where
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: the dragon is loose there and not Yes, all right,
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: mutual exclusion. There we go.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: So I don't like that GENI yel right, that's one
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: of the theories.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: Right, just some random gen not like an avataric gen,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: just an actual gen.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: When and this is certainly in the official canon. There
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: is a line of she is not long lived. There
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: is a line of gen who has survived up to
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: this point, and she is the last living member of
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: Yes is that is in the origins of the Wheel
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: of Time? No, which is canon?
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: No? No, where are they getting their food from? Where
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: are they getting their fresh genetic material from?
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not canomically. Canomically. Nikomi is the last surviving member
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: of a long line of gen who lived this whole time,
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: since the founding of Rudian, for two thousand years, completely undetected.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: I'm putting that with land fear is alive.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: No, that's kind of yeah, where there's no out for that.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: No, that just makes no sense. A family is not
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: going to last for thousands of years by themselves undetected
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: and not just die of starvation and inbreeding. Like, No,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: I don't care how cool they ayel are. I refuse
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: to believe that.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: But the theory is that she is a modern woman
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: who has only recently become the avatar of the Creator
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: Nah at the same time that Shadaharan became the avatar
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: of the Dark One because it was had to be balanced.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: You're telling me that the Ayeel, who were devoted to
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: the Genieel, didn't notice a thousand of them moving off
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: and hiding in the desert and keeping their gene pool
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: sufficiently open so that way, this woman doesn't have three
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: legs as she walks up, like, come on, come on.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: No, I'm there with you. I don't like it. I
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: don't like it at all. You know, maybe somehow they're
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: surviving in rudion. They have access to water, but like
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: that place was dust covered, like there's no evidence of
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: a civilization existing.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Well, unless you want to say that they were like
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: stuck in a stasis box that got broken open when
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: Avian or whether as no. No, I just know that
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: theory can go into the luney bin.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: And with no evidence of her channeling, there's no evidence
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: this woman is older than normal.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the final looney theory, this is an avatar of
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: Varren Mathwin. Yeah, I thought you'd respond to that.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: One is there more explanatory material.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: Uh huh. Nakomi's knowledge is very similar to what Varren
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: learned in The Great Hunt in a conversation with Urian.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: The idea that this conversation could have been in teleertary
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: odds about to say that you can pull someone from
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: the dreams into the world of dreams, YadA, YadA. This
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: theory comes with some flaws. It is unclear whether Varin
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: is alive when Nakomi appeared due to the timeline discrepancies
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: between the Gathering Storm of Towers of Midnight, because we
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: really don't know at what point Avienda is on her journey.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: We don't have a lot of anchoring things, so this
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: could be way like this technically could have gone way
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: back in time.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: We knowed that it's before four Veins of Gold because
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: Rand feels her jump far to the west and goes,
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: I wonder what she's doing it Ruidian And that's before Vans.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: Of Gold, right, because he you're right, I think he's
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: on the tower thinking about how she's in Ruidian.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, because she jumps super far to the west
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: or east, and he's just like, I don't know where
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: else she could be other than Ruidian and that is
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: pre veins of gold. So that gives us a pocket,
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: but not tight enough to square it against Varren's death.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: Because Varn dies on the night that the tower's attacked.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Right, which is two days or so before vans are gold.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: I think it's a couple days before.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so in theory, Avienda is going after Varen
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: has died by a couple days.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a tight pretty close.
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty close in time. So that's where people
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: are like, oh, you know, maybe it is maybe.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: A Varen's not Ayel. Varren is farmatting. That's where Veren's from.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: She has a whole other backstory. I I would love
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: the idea of Varin being more important and having all that,
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: but no, there's nothing about her that makes her overlap
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: with this. That urine information can just exist.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: The theory existed. People wanted it to be Varren. The
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: amount of debunking, like the theory is like one line.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: The amount of debunking is like five paragraphs. I love us, yeah,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: because this is just no way. There's just no way.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: I think someone was trying to say, maybe, like the
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: whole Varren soul's brown, that somehow her soul had a
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: chance to make this correction on its way out was
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: something that people want.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: It's just no, she has no basis of information to
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: be this well grounded in ancient IDEO culture.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: And then yeah, so then and then the last one
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: is like, maybe it's some wise ones who are like
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: trying to give her advice and under the cover of
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: an anonymous No.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: I don't think that that's how the wise ones do
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: these things, Okay, I do like Vugi's counterpoint, Varren knowsar
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: knows right, canonically this is true, but I don't think
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: she knows.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: So those were the two of those theories pretty much
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: nailed it right. Avatar the Creator Geni Eel right, And
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: she's a combination of those two.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a Jeni Yale who has been tapped to
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: be the avatar of the Creator. That is by far
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: and away the simplest, most coherent, most narratively satisfying way
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: for this to go.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: Now, how she survived as Genieel up to this point,
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: I think that is what's open for debate, because canonically
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: she's been the last of a long line of jen
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: who've been surviving in secret.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: Which is just wrong, which is flat out wrong. So
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: I'm going with some kind of trapped in the mists
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: and broken out with the bindings on Rudy and getting
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: broken out. The Hero of the Horn works too, I guess.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Kind of kind of. Yeah, I mean it's I think
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: you can take from this whatever theory you want, because
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: there is what he said, but that is not in
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: the books.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, this is definitely your mileage may vary kind of situation.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: She's your own adventure.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you if you prefer a different theory,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: I am. I am all for any of those theories,
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: you know, somewhat more ridiculous than others. But I think
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: the Hero of the Horn, Avatar of the Creator, trapped
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: in Rudian geni yeel like, those are all totally legit
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: theories in various combinations to go with.
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, map the distance between those points and that constellation,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: how you will at those points. I think we can
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: easily agree on being relevant and true to what this
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: is doing for the books.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: And yeah, and I think really all of this is
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: in the origins of the Wheel of Time. If you
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: want to go back and read that entry for Nacomi.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: A lot of the information is being pulled from there.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, I disagree with it, but that's that's okay. That's
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: the beauty of having multiple texts in your religion, as
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: you can argue about the discrepancies between them. Yes, I
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: am calling we Love Time my religion.
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: Now, come on, it's not a religion, it's a cult.
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: Fair, fair enough. The pedantry is one of our core values.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: Hashtag nauticult.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I just keep waiting for Jordan to rise up
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: after three decades and finish the series.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: Well maybe if we cut ourselves off from all of
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: our friends and family, we can can appeal to him sufficiently.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: Listen, he may not rise up this year, but next year.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Definitely, next year.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely next year.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that was fun.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: That was fun. It's fun to really do a solid
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: bit on Nikomi because I feel like this is where
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: you have to really discuss, like, what is she, what's
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: her purpose in the story, why she created? On one level,
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: I do kind of wish we didn't have that word
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: of Brandon and the origins of the Wheel of Time
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: where we get a definitive answer, because I would have
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: liked to speculate a little more freely, I think. But
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: you know, his answer. This is one of those words
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: answers lined up with what I thought, So I'm not
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: going to object too hardly, too hard about this.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we are the arbiters of truth, right, That's how
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: this works, is that podcast. I can tick what I
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: want to, I.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Reject your reality and substep. Yeah, anything else about this chapter,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: I think that was It's a short chapter, but there's
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: lots of speculation there. So we certainly went over the hour.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I kind of expected us to take a little
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: bit longer, honestly, but we also agreed on a lot.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: So that's true. Light planted fool. I think Nakomi is
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: the actual creator and kicked out her deadbeat husband when
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: he wouldn't take out the trash.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: Is that is the dark one, just the dead beat
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: husband who doesn't want to take out the trash. He
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: just wants to pile it up in the Oh.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: My god, and that's where the bubbles of evil are
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: coming from. It is the sticking garbage that he wouldn't
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: take out.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: He wouldn't take out, just rotting stuff, the rotting miasthma
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: of the trash that keeps piling up.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: Attending to nature is taking out the trash.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Well, she deals with the garden outside. He's like, got
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: the that's why he's inside the house with the trash,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: and she's tending the garden and the walls of the
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: house are the dark one's prison, and like he has
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: to come out. She's like, you can't come out to
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: you take up the trash, and he's like I don't
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: want to. So he's bounding at the door. Yeah, and
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: then like you know, land Fear drilled that hole and
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: he kept like throwing trash out the hole because he
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: was like trying to you know, empty it out that
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: way without leaving.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: The house, to make it like a whole like family
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: sitcom situation outside of uh No, this was this was fun.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: I do like really getting to not say, oh, we'll
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: get to it later, No, here is later. We're here
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: in the later, and we just got to really dig
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: into it, dig through it. I feel like I didn't
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: really like the Nacomi thing this whole time up until
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: getting this amalgamated interpretation kind of hashed out here in
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: this episode, because I always was just like I don't
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: really get it. I don't see the point. It just
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: feels like some weird angelic fanfic insert And I kind
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: of still feel like that, but I wasn't quite putting
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: together a cosmology that attached it to the world properly.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: And I feel like now I have that. I also
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: really did not connect her with the voice at the
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: end with Rand's transfer, because I just have not immersed
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: myself in Brandon ten years later. Stuff like it hits
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: my radar, but I don't engage with it. So that
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: is interesting. And yeah, I don't know. I feel like
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: I've learned something in deep into my appreciation of the
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: books today.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are three questions, right that were not
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: answered when the series came out. Who is Nikomi? How
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: did Ran like the pipe? And I forget the third one?
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: Who was the voice? Is that what it is?
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: That might be it?
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: I will take no part.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is who's the voice? How do
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: you like the pipe? And who's Nikomi?
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: And yeah, this really solidly puts the material into answering
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: two of those.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that part of the reason why
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: he didn't want to talk about it for so long
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: is that this does kind of help with the how
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: did Rand like the pipe? Is he has the same
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: powers as Nikomy? Whatever those powers are, that manipulation of
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: the real world, and it seems to only be for
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: like good things, right, lighting pipe, cooking food, pouring water,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: making tea. Like, it's not world ending destroying stuff. It's like,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, feeding yourself and comfort and that level. That's
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: all we've seen it used for. Like Rand doesn't light
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: a building on fire.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: He lights his pipe, right, He's not like I'm going
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: to light the entire army on fire. He's like, I
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: just don't want to figure out a flint and steel
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: right now, right right.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: It's a peaceful magic maybe somehow, I don't know. We
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: have no context for the rules around it.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: But magic that works in a piece. Maybe it's magic
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: that geni Iel morality m works with. It's only for
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: those little comfort things. You can never be used for violence.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: You have to be enlightened in that way, maybe the
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: opposite of the dark.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: One's power, right right, Yeah, very much. It's a creative
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: sort of agency.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: All right. With that, I think I'm out of things
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: to say.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was great, Thank you all so much for listening.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: And I gotta remind you all we're doing Dungeon Collar Car.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: We're gonna go record the Startup book two right now,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: So go listen to that okay.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: Bye, recording is on, recording is on.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: Let's meet Nacomi.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: Nakomi. Oh, I guess I should talk about skiing before
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: we dig into this.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: No, we gotta go right to Naomi. Give us your update.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just went skiing this weekend, which was fun. Hit
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: a lucky weekend on the mountain. There hasn't been a
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: lot of good weekends, so I got to go up
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: when it was. The snow was really really good. We
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: did it for my wife's birthday, not on her birthday,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: but for her birthday. And yeah, we we went down
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: a couple of times. I had a good time, didn't
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: get hurt, didn't fall, that's good. It was gorgeous outside. Yeah,
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: I highly, you know, highly recommend skiing if you can
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: afford it. It's stupid expensive, but love doing it.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: I've never been skiing. I've only been like properly snuting,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: sledding in the mountains like once. I've just never been
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: a snowsport family person. My brother loves snowboarding, he's into
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: snow but I admire it from afar, which actually not
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: so afar today. There's snow here where I'm at in
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: the Oregon Coast range we got half an inch of
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: very wet snow today and it has still been coming
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: down off and on.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: I got lucky that. I think growing up, my dad
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: would have conferences in Colorado at various ski resorts, and
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: so I work would pay for him to go. I
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: don't know if work would pay for me to go
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: or if you just have to buy me a ticket,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: but he already had like a hotel room and everything.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It was it was the eighties. They
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: got everything for free back then, the Utopia. Yeah, so
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: I got I got to learn to ski in some
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: of the nicest resorts growing up as a kid, and
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: so you know, it's like learning to ride a bike.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: Once you once you know, it doesn't really fade. But
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: I've probably only gone a handful of times as an adult,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: but I do love it is It is a lot
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: of fun to go flying down a mountain on skis,
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: and yeah, it's it's a little bit. There's only a
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: few sports where you go that fast and yet you
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: still feel like you're under your control, right being on
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: a bicycle, being on skis, right that level of I'm
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: assuming like tobogganing or whatever like this, there's a few
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: other ones where gravvy's doing the thing bank gliding. Yeah yeah,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: and even that, I feel like you're and I guess
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: you're always a little bit under the the of nature, right,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: Like the mountain is going to mountain, the wind is
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: going to wind. Yes, but man, yeah.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: You know, I love watching go pros of skiers, like
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: I love the vicarious experience of skiing from the Red
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: Bull go pro magic stuff. I also love watching videos
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: of avalanches that may or may not have been triggered
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: by skiers. You know, Like there's these videos exist, and
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: I generally watch the ones where the people are fine
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: in the end, but yeah, the snow is going to
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: do what it's going to do.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: And I mean resorts are a little bit different, right
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: because there's there's lots of people managing those hills and
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: managing the snow and stuff like that.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: But that just means that there's lots of cameras to
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: capture the fuck ups for me to then watch later.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I tell you what, ski lifts always
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: feel like they're the most danger Like, I know they're
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: probably statistically very safe, but like the fact that you're
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: going up on a lift hundreds of feet in the
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: air well, it's hundreds, but lots of feet in the
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: air in a sea with nothing in front.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: Of you, I think it's generally not hundreds. It's probably
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: more like dozens dozens. Yeah, I've seen enough videos of
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: people wiping out on or near or around that it's
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: it's not hundreds, it's definitely dozens.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: Depends sometimes on like there's occasions where you go like
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: over a rassine or over something where it is you know,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: if you fell off at that time, it would be
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: a long, long fall. And so it's always I don't
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: know if those things terrify me sometimes, but they're fine, right,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: you get on them, you sit down. You know, I've
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: never fallen out of a chair, you know.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's not a it's not actually that big
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: of a deal. But yeah, it feels very exposed. It
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: looks very exposed.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: And then the added weight of having skis dangling off
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: your feet always kinds of feeling. Always feels a little
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: bit like somebody's hanging on your feet trying to yanke
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: you off the lift and pull you off. That's always
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: the sensation I get, because that's not normal, right when
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: you're sitting there, even with your feet dangling you don't
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: have a weight on.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Them, right right, Yeah. It's kind of when you have
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: long hair and then you cut it off and then
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: your head feels like it's floating. You feel like your
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: head is being pulled up from the back because you're
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: so used to this weight pulling down and when it
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: goes away, it literally feels like you're being pulled upward
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: the same amount. It takes a couple of days to
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: kind of wear off. I've done this a couple of times.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: It's a very weird sensation.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: It's like that thing when you have you ever stood
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: in the doorway and you push your arms against the
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: frame of the wall for like sixty seconds and then
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: you step forward and your arms raise up all on
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: their own.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah totally.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: Because you're basically you basically train your muscles for like
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: that sixty seconds to expect that resistance, and then when
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: you release it, you relax, but your muscles still raise
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: your arms up and they like float up magically. It's
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: it's fun.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: Silly body tricks.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: Well, it's like the same thing at looking at a
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: color and then looking at white and seeing the complimentary color.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, totally, there's.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: This idea that your body gets into homeostasis and then
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: if you give it the opposite, or if you give
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: it a blank slate, it'll show you the opposite because
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: it's compensating for what it's seeing.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: It's quite illuminating. Actually, I mean if you can't understand
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: complimentary colors, then yeah, just here you go. Yeah, this
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: is complimentary colors. It's literally built into how your eyeballs work.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: Right, and color is literally just in our eyeballs. Right.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: That's what's so crazy to me is color on some
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: level doesn't exist except through eyes, and how we see
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: light exists frequency, but at the same time we see
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: colors that aren't a single frequency of light all the time.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: Right. It's like how like rainbows are in the eye
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: of the beholder, Like you need a perspective from which
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: to view a rainbow in order for a rainbow to exist.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: Without an observer, there is no rainbow. The conditions for
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: a rainbow exist, but like it requires someone to look
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: through the thing in order for all of the mathy
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: stuff to do it.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, sometimes I think that's like that there's this
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: whole deserver effect that's that people are debating about in
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: quantum physics, and it's like, does the rainbow exists if
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: a tree falls in a forest? Right, does it make
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: a sound? Like? That's almost what they're debating about at
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: this point.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: Except that like trees objectively do make noise, whereas rainbows
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: actually need an observer because you can see the rainbow
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: from so many different points and it's going to be
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: the same, right, Like the rainbow's going to look the same.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: It's not going to be like seven different rainbows stacked
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: up against each other, like each person seeing their own.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, rainbow's kind of forming a cone and you have
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: to be at the right spot to see them. But
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: those that light's reflecting whether or not somebody's there to
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: see it, in the same way that the noise is
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: vibrating atoms, whether or not someone's there to hear it.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: But is it a noise if someone can't interpret it, right,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: That's that's the crux of the debate.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: It was just circling back around to our numbers invented
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: or discovered the other night, just to really take it.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, basically.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, these philosophical brain pretzels are we're not qualified
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: to answer them, but man, are they fun to wrestle
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: with right.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: They're fun to think about because it is the like,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: if you keep asking why, you eventually get to one
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: of these puzzles.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's true for five year olds and for
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: quantum physicists working on their eighth degree, Like it all
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: ends up at the same brain pretzels.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: Speaking of brain pretzels and things that we really can't
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: answer one way order the oven, but we can certainly
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: speculate about who is Nikomi.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: Excellent segue. Thank you, Thank you, that was professional. Thank
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: Please rate and review us on your podcast app and
• 1:12:46
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• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
• 1:12:54
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• 1:12:57
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