Latest / Reframe First / Hamza A Liaqat, Co-Founder at Dvours | The Reality of Passive Income in E-commerce
Transcript
- Oleksij Rak: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Reframe First. I'm Alexey, the host of the podcast. Let me welcome our today's guest Hamza Leokat, co-founder and head of growth at VORS. Hi Hamza, it's great having you here. Hamza: Thank you so much for having me and I'm really excited to talk to you today. I have checked some of your videos, the kind of work you are doing in your videos. They are really insightful and I think they really help people as well. Oleksij Rak: Awesome, awesome. Thanks a lot for coming. So from what I learned about the company, you're helping people get some passive income from Amazon, from Shopify platforms. If understand, understood the advice. So could you tell us more about like what your buildings are, like what your mission is ⁓ and what is all about? Hamza: Yeah, so what we do is we build and operate the stores. So we work with our partners and we build the e-commerce stores for them. ⁓ we've been doing this for around six years now. When started, I was just ⁓ one guy doing, know, learning stuff and doing stuff. And then people started coming in, we started building a team and now we are a big team. And we are now, you know, working with clients ⁓ from over the world and we are operating these stores for them. Oleksij Rak: Thanks. you And what kinds of stores this are? Like, is it like Amazon platform or like that? Hamza: The main thing that we do is Amazon. ⁓ are some stores on other platforms as well like Shopify, Walmart, eBay. But I'd say 80 % of what we do is Amazon. Oleksij Rak: Awesome. And what part of the process do you help your customers with? From what I read from your website, it starts from choosing the products they are selling. Hamza: Yeah, so what we want to do is we want to make it a completely hands-off experience for everyone. the kind of partners we get is ⁓ people ⁓ are the professionals, who doing some jobs, or the people who are some businesses already and they've got no time to learn the systems, to learn the operations, or even sit down and do the operations themselves. So that's the kind of people we work with. And what we do for them is we build the system. We start entirely from scratch, you know, and we find what to sell, we get the source and we start selling for them. a lengthy process, you know, there are a lot of things to cover, ⁓ if just say simply, so this is what we do, you we find what to sell, we find where to get it and then we put it on Amazon ⁓ or other platform and we start selling it for them. It requires a lot of explanation and are a lot of things to do when we do it. But, know, ⁓ simply that's the way we do. Oleksij Rak: I understand, like, you also help with marketing processes for them? Hamza: Yeah, everything. goal is to make it the hands-off experience for them. So for example, most of the partners that we work with, they don't have to do anything at all. ⁓ They just ⁓ on maybe at the weekends or by the end of the month and they see the reports, hey, what you guys did ⁓ the week or what you guys did during the month. And ⁓ have all the reports and they just got to monitor the things. So is done by our team and in-house. Oleksij Rak: And how much can I expect to earn from this kind of passive income? Hamza: Yeah, it depends on the capital because it's the money that we are making is bound to the inventory that we put in the store, right? So the more we the inventory we are buying the more we can sell it for and the more profit we can make so it depends on the inventory We have people who are you know? Putting like for example ten thousand dollars for the inventory and then we have people who are putting hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars for the inventory so the return that we get for client A is totally different from the return that we get from client B. it totally depends on what we put in to get back. Oleksij Rak: If I put 100%, how much can I earn in half a year? If I put 100k, how much can I expect in half a year's time? Hamza: Yeah. ⁓ The ROI that we are getting right now is anywhere from 18 to 25 % on the inventory and what we try to do is we try to sell things so we only get into the product if we are really really sure that we can sell it within 30 to 40 days. You know we only get in the product when we know that we are going to sell it in 30 or 40 days. So there are two things when we are choosing something to sell. The first thing is it doesn't just sit in the warehouse for months and months. Oleksij Rak: Mm. Hamza: That's the first and very important thing. the money is not stuck there. ⁓ the second thing is when it sells out, we get something back from it. So these are the two goals when we are choosing something. And we have a qualification process for that. Like when we are deciding what to sell, we a six step process that we I think, ⁓ over the five years. It took so long to be at this level. And when we Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Hamza: choosing a product, a product has to pass through those six filters and by the end of those six filters we now know that this is the product we're go with and how much profit we're gonna expect from that. So 18 to 25 is the average that we are getting right now on our stores and yeah so if for example someone is selling putting in 100,000 they can expect anywhere around 18,000 to 25,000. Oleksij Rak: per month Hamza: But per cycle, so when we put in the money, know, so for example, we put in the money today, we are buying inventory, inventory takes process to get to Amazon, you know, then it takes around a month or 40 days to sell out. The cycle completes Amazon page in two weeks for the new sellers. So time, ⁓ are some other operations as well that take a few days. Each of them takes a few days and the process gets slower and slower. But the goal is to Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hamza: you know, get the return within two to three months. So for example, if you have bought something, goal is to ⁓ the return on that within two to three months. Oleksij Rak: Okay, okay, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, okay, so from the money that turns. and do you help people choose the product? ⁓ And does the product come from? Hamza: Yeah, so there are different strategies to do that as well as I mentioned so think it's been five years so we started With the basic knowledge that we had and then we started working on the systems that we have today and Each product when we are, know ⁓ deciding product we have to It's a six-step process and I don't to go get into how we do it because it's a lengthy process and you know It requires a lot of time to explain yeah, ⁓ product has to pass through that and after it has passed, we now know that how many units we can sell in a month, who are people that are already selling, who are we competing with, how much we need to buy, know, how much, if we are something on the marketing, how much we will have to spend on the marketing and what budget, you know, ⁓ we need to aside for the marketing and everything. ⁓ So by the of ⁓ all this ⁓ process, we know ⁓ everything. now we ⁓ know that this is the target cost for the product as well. So we need to negotiate with the supplier that this is the cost we need the product at. Because already have all the numbers, like what we are selling at, what are fees ⁓ and everything. So now understand the cost as like what we need to buy it for. And that's how we can negotiate the prices with the suppliers as well. Oleksij Rak: I understand. and in terms of like... What is the usual cost structure when you're trying to sell the product? How much do you put in the product? How much do you put into marketing? How much do you put into distribution? And how much do you expect to get in return? So from what I heard, in return you can expect from 18 to 25 percent, but the rest of the cost distribution, if it's not the secret. Hamza: It's actually different for each product because each category is different, the features in each category are different, ⁓ competitors in each category are different, know, each competitor is doing their own thing. So we have to actually read them, ⁓ know, what they are doing, what they've been doing in the past six months, you how the pricing ⁓ in market have been fluctuated in the past six months or a year. And then we, ⁓ you ⁓ run numbers and then we decide. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Hamza: how much we need to buy, how much we need to put in on the marketing, what marketing methods are we gonna use. we have to read all of that and it's ⁓ different for each product that we do. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I see. And how guaranteed is return on investment? Because if it's 100 % guaranteed, why wouldn't you do it yourself? That's quite an obvious question, I would say. Hamza: Yeah, almost all the partners when we are talking to clients, everyone asks this question, like why don't you do it yourself? The answer is that we are doing it ourselves as well. But the thing is Amazon has a policy, they allow one store per household. So I for myself cannot own multiple stores. that's where we have to partner with other people as well to operate stores. We do all the operations. They just sit back, relax, and we do. Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Hamza: the impressions and about the guarantee of the return there are ⁓ as well there are two things ⁓ there can be two things the one that ⁓ the sales so slow for example we ⁓ planned the for 30 days or 40 days and sales got slower for some reason for ⁓ for any you know there can be hundreds of reason in the market ⁓ so ⁓ what is we ordered we had something in We planned that this thing is going go out in 30 days and now it's sitting there. How long it can sit? Maybe 30 more days, right? Maybe 40 more days. So if we are planning to sell something in one month, it got sold out in two months or maybe two and a half months. So that's one of the risks. And it's not like, for example, if someone is putting in $50,000, it doesn't waste their $50,000. It just increases the warehouse fee that we are going to pay. So it maybe reduces the profit by a margin, but it's there, The inventory is there and we own the inventory and we are not gonna lose 50,000 on that. And the second thing that we see is the price war. For example, we were planning to sell something for $50 and the price war is in the market and now it's... Oleksij Rak: you Hamza: other sellers are selling it for let's say $45. Now the profit again got a little, we had to cut down on the profit a little and then ⁓ this where we lose some of the money as well. ⁓ But there different strategies where we can keep selling on our desired ⁓ price ⁓ and maybe have doing some of our partners there. ⁓ Oleksij Rak: you Hamza: What we did is we offered some extra values in the product. We some extra marketing methods in the product. You we were getting customers from out of Amazon. So everyone who's searching on Amazon, ⁓ can just go buy the thing for $45. But someone who's coming off the platform, from off the platform, they can just, they'll land our product page. They haven't explored all the other options. So there are different studies that we do. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Hamza: And if we are reselling, for example, if we are the partners with of the brands, what we do is we get the authorization from them ⁓ sell their products, any brands in the market, we can do it for them if they have in their policy. So in case, we want to go with the brands only that have the minimum product price policy. So maximum. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Hamza: So that's where they control the policy, they control the pricing of the product and no other sellers in the market can reduce the prices. So that's one of the strategies as well that we use to make sure that we don't have to sell the product at a lower price there is a price war in the market. yet are the two things that can actually, these are the two risks I'd say and that's how ⁓ we... Oleksij Rak: Okay. you Hamza: And these two risks, actually what they do is they reduce the profit margin. few percentage and we can you know deal with them as well but it's not as risky as we think for example if someone has sent an inventory worth $50,000 to Amazon FBA and it's not gonna disappear from it right so if we were planning to make $10,000 or $12,000 on the inventory we had to get rid some price wars or the sales got slower, now we got the profit of let's $7,000 or $6,000. So that's what it can happen in the market, but the $50,000 is not gonna disappear from here, right? So it's not as risky as we might think. Oleksij Rak: Okay, I understand. usually working with Amazon fulfillment because you ⁓ like you have separate product page, landing page for a product outside of Amazon platform. Like ⁓ how does work in that case? Hamza: of the products that we do, ⁓ want to do Amazon fulfillment. We want to send them to FBA. That's ⁓ the priority. Sometimes we with the products and if they are bigger in size, we have to them through FBM. We have use our own warehouses to do that. That's possible as well, but priority is always doing FBA. ⁓ If there is something in the product that FBA doesn't allow us to do FBA, Amazon doesn't allow us to do FBA, that means there are not a lot of people doing that product and that reduces the competition as well. And FBA is one of the best ways to get rid the competition. For example, if there are ⁓ six and four of them are doing FBM and two are doing FBA, Amazon just prefers FBA. ⁓ Amazon just the FBA sellers and Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. you Yep. ⁓ Hamza: The FBA sellers get more sales of course as compared to the other sellers. do FBA most of the times and sometimes for products we have to go with our own warehouses as well. Oleksij Rak: Okay, and for instance, if I am some kind of influencer, I'm not, but still, if I am some kind of influencer or... running some platform like that has a lot of traffic, a lot of users and I want to put some merge there. You know, does it make sense for me like to go to FBA? It's like and sell it on Amazon through Amazon or do I sell it by myself? Hamza: Yeah, it depends. example, someone has ⁓ has it, because selling on Amazon is that get a very, very good platform to sell it. And the second thing is we, ⁓ Amazon has the traffic, right? Amazon already the as well. So the main thing that go to Amazon is for the traffic. ⁓ There are, I was ⁓ checking and there are Oleksij Rak: But also expensive. Hamza: 12 million items sold every day on Amazon. So when I talk to my partners, I tell them that out of these 12 million every day, our goal is just to get a chunk of 200 items every day. We just need to sell 200 items out of these 12 million items every day and we are settled for life. if someone already has the audience, ⁓ have the traffic, they know this audience is reliable and they will buy whatever I want to sell. I think the Shopify is better for them in that case. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I see. your platform, I've seen ⁓ say you do a lot of kind of automations of the whole process. Could you tell more about what kind of things you automate there? And ⁓ how you streamline all the process? Because automation is really trending nowadays. Everybody's trying to automate something. ⁓ Hamza: Yeah, this automation mostly is not the AI automation, I'd say. What offer for our clients is we automate the processes for them. For example, someone who wants to do a business, who wants to own an asset, and they have time to learn the things, they don't have time to sit down and do everything. We take everything off the... We the workload them ⁓ and we offer everything... we do everything for them and that's the sort of automation we offer for them, not for ourselves. So we have the teams in place. use some of the automation tools, automation tools of course, but the automation word ⁓ on our page, it means the automation for the investors. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Okay, automation of like helping them save their time by your teams. Awesome. And like you mentioned, you're running like more than 100 websites, or not websites, like 100 shops within Amazon, our site of Amazon. How big of a team does it take to run this kind of operation? Hamza: We are actually working on different models. So for example, some of our stores, they got the inventory manufactured from China and it got sent to Amazon. There's a completely different model from something that I mentioned when we do an authorization partnership with some of the famous brands in the US. So these are two different models and we need different people to run them. So right now we have a team, I think more than 50 people. Oleksij Rak: Thanks. Hamza: And it's all over the world. So are running completely remote. one more thing that I always tell my partners ⁓ is, know, they're like, how do you afford to keep these 50 people? ⁓ And the is that we hire people from, know, everyone is remotely. You can hire people from, you know, Pakistan, India, Philippines, everywhere. ⁓ And what have to pay someone who is in US, ⁓ we can pay like 20 % of that to someone in Oleksij Rak: you Hamza: any other part of the world and we can get things done. So that's how we are falling to keep everyone as well. Oleksij Rak: ⁓ Okay, awesome. Like switching to the market trends, like you say you're working ⁓ this business for five years. What do you see that has changed over recent years? Hamza: That's a very good question. say and there's something I wanted to talk about as well because five years ago when you know everyone wanted to get into Amazon and They they got in, know, they spent six months and they got out as well ⁓ then Amazon used to be all about trends You anyone who? You know found finds a new product. Hey, this is trending in China You know, let's try this one and there's how people used to do Amazon But right now I'd say Amazon is different The fees, Amazon fee structure has been pretty straight. Amazon policies have been pretty straight. People used to drop shipping from here and there, you know, these platforms. Amazon doesn't allow that at all. Now people cannot do drop shipping. People cannot get into trends as quick as possible like they used to do. So these are the trends that are changing and Amazon is now pushing more infrastructure, best sellers more, you know, the people who are doing everything by the book, they have all the certifications, documentation, they respect the time, respect the values of the customers, that's what Amazon is pushing. And this is something that changed over time. yeah, most the people have, you see a lot of people online, ⁓ they tried into Amazon, they didn't get good results and they got out. And that is of the reasons as well, because Amazon has become very very strict with all these policies and it's now become more difficult to run things if you don't have the right system or if you don't have the infrastructure. Oleksij Rak: Okay. Okay, so like you mean the biggest change like you experience for your business is like the change of Amazon policies Do you some change in like buyer behaviors like because like over a couple of years the generation has changed a bit like World has changed a bit either like ⁓ do feel like any change in buyer? Hamza: Yes. I'd say yes because the new marketplaces like TikTok shop and know other marketplaces and most of the influencers they are doing their own shops they are not using Amazon or any other platform for their shops so the new I'd say the new buyer is more open to all the options five or ten years ago people only had limited options for like Amazon, Walmart, some other stores, some other platforms. But now people have more options and they are open to try all the options as well. And that's one of the reasons that TikTok Shop has been booming. But Amazon, the customers that Amazon had, they are still there. And just like I mentioned, day ⁓ sends out 12 million parcels. 12 million items every day and that's really a huge number, know, we can suggest that 12 million But when you think about it 12 million items is really a big number, you know the buyers are still there the only thing is that These platforms they really they only care about their buyers, know They don't care about sellers because they have a lot of sellers and don't don't they don't care about them all they care about is the buyers, you know, they Oleksij Rak: Yep. you Hamza: all they care about is their buyers and I just want to think of the right word, but it's not coming to me. yeah, the seller has to adopt to the policies, know, whatever Amazon or any other platform wants ⁓ the platform adopts to the policies whatever the buyer wants. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I see. you mentioned dropshippers, the dropshippers are using a lot of like meta TikTok ads, meta ads, like Instagram, whatever, Facebook. Facebook almost dead, but still. ⁓ And with regards to your shops and your partners, like what is the majority of like acquisition channel for you? Is it Amazon only or do they also run some ads on? Hamza: So for the brands that we are doing on Amazon, ⁓ sometimes do ⁓ Amazon marketing as well that includes Meta or TikTok marketing, ⁓ that's YouTube as well. We sometimes do all sorts of marketing for them as well, but ⁓ the thing stays with Amazon's, like the Amazon advertisement that we have on platform. But for the stores and other stores that we do, we have to go the social media marketing only. Oleksij Rak: because Amazon itself is quite expensive from what I understand. So ⁓ ads on top of that is like you're getting no margin in the end. What do you think about ⁓ emerging and buying via From what I've recently, a lot of people are just using whatever, Shadgy BTs, have agent pods that helps you buy. And they are not even living that kind of platform. they are not going to Amazon to search for goods. They are not going to some website to search for goods. They are going to AI to chat GPT and tell it like, find me something for my criteria. And just gives it link to, it could be Amazon, could be any other platform, but like the exploration phase is in the AI in LLM. you see it? Like, do you see this change or how does it work for you? Hamza: Yeah, I think the information, so there are two things people. they look for the information or they look for some product, right? So the information part of the research is totally, I think, it totally now relies on ⁓ People to do Google back in the day. ⁓ So ⁓ information is through the AI platforms. But I think still ⁓ the researches are still on. Oleksij Rak: Hmm. Hamza: on Amazon and all these websites and platforms, they are shifting, are moving there, but they are still here. And it takes a lot of time to... So for example, if a platform took 10 or 15 years to get in its place, even if it's now seeing a decline, it's going to take many, many years to get to zero as well. So for example, if something is going up, it's going to take the same time to go down as well. It's just like I mentioned, if a platform is selling hundreds of millions every day, it's going to take a lot of time to go down to a few millions. yeah, if ⁓ don't change on these platforms, maybe they come up with something ⁓ we can't imagine. ⁓ And are then, you know, they're on AI as well. So ⁓ maybe there something. But ⁓ if it happen. Oleksij Rak: . you Hamza: then the platforms that are going to see the decline, it's going to take years for them to get the decline as well. Oleksij Rak: Maybe it will be fast. know, the world is really rapid nowadays. yeah, we'll see. like what kind of trends are like you're following the monitoring nowadays and what you think it all goes with whatever, with AI, with bad bio behavior? Hamza: Yeah, I can have a go. Oleksij Rak: this platform how they evolve. ⁓ actually, what trends are you monitoring and where do you think this trends will move? Hamza: I think buyer is getting more more comfortable with the platforms. there is something about the reliability as well. Because platforms already trust these platforms. So for example, there is a for example Amazon. People already trust Amazon. I start a new shop that's just my website. It will take me some time to get the trust of the customers in the market as well. I'll have to get some, do a lot of PR, I'll get to talk to a lot of influencers to promote my page. And after a lot of work, people will start trusting my page, but Amazon people already trust them. So the trust is already there and people are really, really comfortable buying from all these platforms, instead of some new pages. yeah, the buyer behavior, I think with the platforms is still similar. It might change in the coming months or maybe. in the coming years. the platforms don't do anything new, ⁓ like I mentioned, maybe they come up with something new, related to AI or something, and ⁓ stick the platform But if they don't do it, maybe they can ⁓ lose their audience the future. Oleksij Rak: What would you fix in your business, like if you could it, like a snap of your What would it be? What's continuously failing nowadays? Hamza: Yeah, that's a good question. I'd put a to the results that we are getting ⁓ of ⁓ the new customers ⁓ talking about how we can get more and more customers. ⁓ a lot of partners that we get, they want results as soon as possible. ⁓ start a store today and they want ⁓ tomorrow. ⁓ if can do this and ⁓ maybe I try reduce the time that it takes to ⁓ Oleksij Rak: there. Hamza: get the store on, send out the inventory, start selling, know, start making profit. It takes a lot of time, it takes months to actually see the profit on the stores. So if I can do this and make profit, I'd do that. Oleksij Rak: And why you do profits like this? What's so long? Is it like goods, like ⁓ bringing from China to US to Amazon or what's that? ⁓ Hamza: Yeah, because these are the physical goods. If we were selling some digital products, could speed up the process as much as we want. But with the physical goods, it takes time. We have to send goods from this city to other city ⁓ to FBA. It takes a few days to send the goods. Then Amazon takes a few days to get everything live, approve everything, get everything live. So it takes time. all the businesses being happen physically in the market, know, goods are involved, inventory is involved. So it takes time to actually move things from here to the other place. Oleksij Rak: So is it only moving from one place to another or is it also some setups, technical infrastructure, Amazon infrastructure, some marketing? ⁓ Hamza: The technical part doesn't take much of the time I'd say. For example, if we are sending, so again, there are two methods where we buy something from China or any other country and send it to US or we buy it from within US and send it to FBA. And both take, for example, sending things from China to US. It can take around a month of 40 days or 45 days sometimes. Oleksij Rak: Yep. Hamza: Meanwhile while the inventory is on the way we can on all the technical ⁓ as well ⁓ sometimes we have to you know, technical all the technical things are done within seven days or five days and now we have to just wait for the goods to get there. So ⁓ main thing is actually processing of the goods ⁓ and and we can and that's of the reasons where we make profit as well because we if we let's say want to go with plan on some of the shipping methods. They cost us more and that reduces the profit as well. know, sometimes we have to go with ⁓ It took some time, but it made us ⁓ good profit as well, so we have to go with this method. Oleksij Rak: I see. That's a great discussion. So I learned something new about Amazon ⁓ on Amazon today. If is anything else you would like to add on top of that, ⁓ what it be? Hamza: I think I had a few things in the mind ⁓ and one is that as we talked about how the market has been changing so they used to a really really hype a very big hype for the Amazon and doing FBA and it's not there now and that's the reason millions of sellers got in they didn't get the results they got out and you know but one of the reason that people didn't get results is the system. We need to have the right system in place to things done, to get the results. it takes ⁓ some as well. cannot get results in like 10 days. That's one I wanted to mention. ⁓ Oleksij Rak: What by saying system, like so sorry, like we say system. do you mean like we system. Hamza: The system means that we have the right knowledge, the right tools and the right strategies to know ⁓ what are selling, to know how we need to sell it, to know where we need to get it from ⁓ and everything. We have to have the right buyer-supplier network as well. We've been in the market for, I think, around five years ⁓ now and takes so long to build the right network of the suppliers. Oleksij Rak: Okay. Hamza: Yeah, and it takes all of this to maybe make us so successful. Oleksij Rak: the next thing you wanted to mention is... Hamza: Yeah, there has been I think a lot of some automation companies as well in the market and they have been talking to some of the people and some of the partners that come to us, they've paid $40,000, $50,000 to some automation company and I'm like, why don't you put $50,000 in the inventory that can actually make you profitable. So I'd say don't pay $40,000 or $50,000 for the services. that you can maybe get for a lot less. Because honestly, these services don't cost $50,000. They can be done in a lot less. So don't pay $50,000 in some service fee. Instead, buy inventory for $50,000 and sell it so you can make some Oleksij Rak: Okay, probably makes sense. You know what I mean. But yeah, the more you automate, the more efficient you feel like you run things and the higher margin you can expect that's like obvious. Hamza: Yeah, and I have a question for you as well. How do you think the e-commerce service industry is evolving when we talk about the AI and automations and the bio behavior? Oleksij Rak: Yeah. talking outside Amazon, I think it's like evolving a lot because like Amazon is another world by itself and right now like the product discovery phase in opinion is changing a lot. Especially with age, ⁓ the age like agentic AIs, not just LLMs, but agentic AIs, like agents that can be used to like go search me something. So, and it's changing the marketing. marketing channels are changing, discovery phase is changing. And that, is the biggest ⁓ threat big platforms. And ⁓ not because Amazon is kind of extreme for a marketplace, but for other kinds of marketplaces, we think they in danger nowadays, because simple services, simple services, like Sol 1.1. One simple single pain of ⁓ users like repetitive pains can just skyrocket easily without much of investment. While big platforms, are too slow to adapt to the change. I don't know where it goes, but ⁓ really looking closely to what agent I can suggest provide there. Besides, the new tools that are emerging. with AI, with automations, it's nowadays, it's so easy to create something. Like the market is flooded by these solutions, but it's so easy to create something that if you find the right spot, you know, you can kick out the big players out of the market. Maybe not Amazon yet, but still. I didn't know where it goes. But these are thoughts and that's why I'm trying to chat with people from the industry to understand like what they see. Hamza: Yeah. ⁓ Oleksij Rak: what trends they see. I did not have a chance to talk with somebody from Amazon world, so you are the first one. It feels like there are 12 million sales every day, it stays there. It does indeed, so it's a huge market. Hamza: Yeah. was a great conversation. Thank you so much for having me. Looking forward maybe ⁓ we can some other time as well. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, awesome. Yeah, thank you too and have a great day. Hamza: Thank you so much for your time. Have a good day. Oleksij Rak: Yeah.