Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Dad daughter duo in mom’s ‘suicide’ Plus: Gorgeous Alabama mom's sexy double life leads to murder?

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Dad daughter duo in mom’s ‘suicide’ Plus: Gorgeous Alabama mom's sexy double life leads to murder? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: go to Nancy's beats dot com. Today Crime Stories with
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one two. Can
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Speaker 1: you imagine coming home from school as a college student
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Speaker 1: and finding your mom dead, not only dead, but by suicide?
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Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
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Speaker 1: being with us with me Pamela for Crime Stories, investigative
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Speaker 1: reporter Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned forensics expert, Professor of Forensics
1:39
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University. Dr Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist
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Speaker 1: and host of the hit series Investigation Discoveries. Fatal vows
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Speaker 1: straight out to Pamela for what happened. Well. On August
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Speaker 1: of last year, police came to a home there in Corning,
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Speaker 1: New York. At the time, they didn't release any information
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Speaker 1: except for this woman. A forty six year old woman
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Speaker 1: was found hanging inside of her home. Her fourteen year
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Speaker 1: old daughter was at the residence at the time. Uh.
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Speaker 1: They thought it was suspicious circumstances. But that's all they
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Speaker 1: knew at the time, and they started to investigate. Uh.
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Speaker 1: Carrie was the older daughter. She's twenty years old. She
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Speaker 1: goes to college in North Brunswick, New Jersey. Uh she
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Speaker 1: Rochester Institute of Technology. So she has everything going for her.
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Speaker 1: She has her whole future ahead of her. Um. Michelle
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Speaker 1: Writer who was the woman who died. She was married
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Speaker 1: to Lloyd, but they were divorced. Uh, and he was
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Speaker 1: not anywhere close to the home. Apparently at the time
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Speaker 1: when police showed up to the house. Just stuck on
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Speaker 1: what you first said, I'm stuck on what your first
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Speaker 1: sad Pamela for her to Dr Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologist,
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Speaker 1: host of Discoveries Fatal Vows. Dr Brian I recall as
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Speaker 1: a little girl, we did not know the word suicide. Now, sadly,
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Speaker 1: my ten year olds have heard the word suicide and
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Speaker 1: I had to tell him what it was. But I
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Speaker 1: remember going to school there was a young girl cute
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Speaker 1: as a button my age, and another girl just equally
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Speaker 1: cute that was my sister's age, and I knew they
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Speaker 1: didn't have a mom. I didn't know any more than that.
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Speaker 1: I didn't think about it. I guess at that age
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Speaker 1: you don't think about where's Billy's mommy, you know, you
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Speaker 1: don't really think about it that way. Because we were
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Speaker 1: all on the public school bus. They didn't have the
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Speaker 1: drop off in the pickup, you know, so we we
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Speaker 1: didn't ever think anything. It was only until I think
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Speaker 1: I was in college before my mom told me. It
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Speaker 1: just came up in conversation that they're mom had committed
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Speaker 1: suicide and they lived with no mom, and with that
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Speaker 1: they came home and found her dead. And I know
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Speaker 1: from having a very dear friend commits suicide that you
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Speaker 1: you think, Wow, what what could I have done to
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Speaker 1: stop this? And when you're a child, I can only
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Speaker 1: imagine how this affected them to come home and find
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Speaker 1: mommy had committed suicide. Yeah, And and for a child,
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Speaker 1: there's sort of an added element of a sense of abandonment.
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Speaker 1: You know why, no matter how bad things were for
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Speaker 1: the person who apparently committed suicide, the parent, why did
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Speaker 1: they Why were they willing to leave me? To get
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Speaker 1: away from it? And and it almost creates, it almost
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Speaker 1: begs the thought and the kid of well, I must
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Speaker 1: have been part of what was so intolerable about this life.
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Speaker 1: That just hurts me. That hurts me so much to
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Speaker 1: hear you say that, And I know that what you're
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Speaker 1: saying is correct. Brian Russell, Joseph Scott Morgan. I have
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Speaker 1: seen your awesome son, and you've met the twins. I
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Speaker 1: remember I had to be gone and I've got it
5:23
Speaker 1: is coming up again. I'm gonna have to be gone Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
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Speaker 1: four nights, okay, and I lay everything out their clothes
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Speaker 1: for every day, Andy socks, play clause, school snacks, blah blah,
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Speaker 1: the works, and I call home Joe Scott, and my
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Speaker 1: daughter will say so her dad and my mother who
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Speaker 1: lived with us, can't hear pop. Wow, I feel so bad.
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Speaker 1: I feel awful being away. I just can't imagine if
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Speaker 1: my children came home one day and I was gone forever,
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Speaker 1: and not only that I did it myself. It's uh,
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Speaker 1: you kids, you know, in in this position like this,
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Speaker 1: I've been too many homes over the course of my career,
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Speaker 1: you know, and have worked, have worked cases where people
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Speaker 1: have taken their own life, and it's it's so difficult
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Speaker 1: even for the adult children because just like uh, Dr
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Speaker 1: Russell said, Uh, everyone asked those questions and there is
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Speaker 1: this this this chasm, this gulf, this bottomless pit of abandonment,
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Speaker 1: that that that you feel because you you they try
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Speaker 1: to understand, Uh, why is it, uh that that you left?
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Speaker 1: And what another thing that I see that spikes up?
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Speaker 1: You know, in these cases I worked over the years,
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Speaker 1: Uh is there is a residual anger uh that comes
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Speaker 1: about and it seems is you know, I would have
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Speaker 1: people working at the medical Examiner's office. I'd be there
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Speaker 1: late at night and I'd have I remember I had
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Speaker 1: one fellow that was still calling me seven years after
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Speaker 1: the fact about a suicide and his family. He just
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Speaker 1: couldn't wrap his mind around it. And uh, you know,
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Speaker 1: i'd refer in counceling everything else because I was work
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Speaker 1: in other cases. But sometimes I just sit there and
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Speaker 1: listen and it's it's a hopeless it's a hopelessness that says, well,
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Speaker 1: this is what I know. That this girl comes home
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Speaker 1: from college and finds her mom has hung herself. And
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Speaker 1: Pamela for joining me Crime Stories investigative reporter. There two
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Speaker 1: daughters in the home, right, Uh, there's the twenty year
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Speaker 1: old Carrie, and then there's another sister, right, yeah, fourteen
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Speaker 1: year old daughter. Yeah, who's there in the home at
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Speaker 1: the time when the police came to the house and
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Speaker 1: her mom was found hanging there in the house? My
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Speaker 1: stars four years, Oh my goodness. To Joseph Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: how do you when there's family in the home when
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Speaker 1: the suicide occurs, what do you do with the with
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Speaker 1: the family? I mean, I know they want to get
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Speaker 1: to the body, especially your mom. You want to try
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Speaker 1: to save her. Well, from an investigative standpoint, let me
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Speaker 1: let me just lay it out, and it's it's gonna
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Speaker 1: sound it's gonna sound really really cold and cruel, but
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Speaker 1: from an investor, because you only get one shot at
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Speaker 1: at working a death scene, and our working assumption, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: is that every and I don't mean some, I don't
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Speaker 1: mean you know, uh, you know, an arbitrary few. I
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Speaker 1: mean all all deaths are considered a homicide until proven
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Speaker 1: otherwise because you cannot go back and rework the case.
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Speaker 1: Oh man, that is so true. I was just with
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Speaker 1: doctor Oz this past week talking about how the case
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Speaker 1: was bought to the get go on, John Boney Ramsey. Now,
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Speaker 1: I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole, but
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Speaker 1: you're so right. But in this case, it was so
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Speaker 1: obviously hanging death by suicide. So what how would you
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Speaker 1: process How do you handle a scene like that? I mean,
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Speaker 1: how do you process the body? What do you do
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Speaker 1: to you know, ensure it was a suicide? The first
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Speaker 1: thing you have to do. And apparently they did this, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: They took care at the scene because there are certain
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Speaker 1: things that we look for. So we're gonna take a
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Speaker 1: look at the injury around the neck. In this particular case,
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Speaker 1: they're talking about hanging, Nancy, So that would be what's
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Speaker 1: for two as a ligature mark and that's a deep furrow,
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Speaker 1: and the position of that mark on the neck is
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Speaker 1: going to be the telling sign as to whether or
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Speaker 1: not this is homicide or suicide and or something else. Well,
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Speaker 1: this is what we also know, Pamela for investigative reporter
9:42
Speaker 1: joining us, is that there have been several calls two
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Speaker 1: police to come to the home for domestic problems. But
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Speaker 1: the father wasn't living there, so it wasn't him, right,
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Speaker 1: wasn't living there? Um, it wasn't him that we know of.
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Speaker 1: Police aren't releasing much information. We don't know if whether
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Speaker 1: or not he had a history of any kind of
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Speaker 1: violence with Michelle, the mother, the one who died. We
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Speaker 1: don't know if maybe he was still trying to uh
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Speaker 1: come after her, I mean at some point obviously they
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Speaker 1: were married at some point. So we're not sure where
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Speaker 1: those domestic abuse calls came from. Police aren't releasing that information,
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Speaker 1: but we do know there was a history, not of
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Speaker 1: one call, of several calls to that home. Well, I'll
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Speaker 1: tell you what Dr Brian Russell, lawyer and psychologists and
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Speaker 1: hosts of investigation Discoveries Fatal Vow series, that's what it
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Speaker 1: sounds like to me. You know, when you have a
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Speaker 1: domestic report, and I've seen so many that escalated into
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Speaker 1: felony when you have them. The alleged perpetrator is right
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Speaker 1: on the police report, says husband allegedlie beat wife. We
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Speaker 1: observe wife with bruises and crying, bleeding, and we made
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Speaker 1: the man leave. Blah blah. You see it in the
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Speaker 1: police report. But here we don't know who was the
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Speaker 1: perpetrator of alleged domestic violence. But hold everybody's horses. Because
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Speaker 1: the girls were juveniles, two girls, one mom in the home.
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Speaker 1: Who is beating who? Who is threatening who? Because the
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Speaker 1: police reports apparently don't reveal it. They don't reveal it,
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Speaker 1: we can't decipher that. We have not been able to
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Speaker 1: learn that is it because one of the juveniles was
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Speaker 1: the perpetrator and therefore it's not on the police report.
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Speaker 1: Dr Russell, that's possible. I think one thing for sure
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Speaker 1: is that those kids who were in that house when
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Speaker 1: the police were called to the home. No. And it's
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Speaker 1: additionally abusive. I think when parents allow abused to go
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Speaker 1: on or perpetrate abuse in the presence of kids, because
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Speaker 1: it puts them not only in physical and emotional danger,
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Speaker 1: but it puts them in the horrible position. If there
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Speaker 1: it does, you know, to come the need for them
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Speaker 1: to explain what happened in the house. It's traumatic to
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Speaker 1: have to do that. Then everything takes an unusual twist.
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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott, Morgan forensics expert. We know that there were
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Speaker 1: deep furrows on the mom's neck from her apparent hanging,
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Speaker 1: her suicide. Then what happened Joe Scott. Apparently the police
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Speaker 1: did not Uh, the investigators did not agree with what
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Speaker 1: they're in this This is the problemacy on many of
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Speaker 1: these cases. You will have family members that will say
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Speaker 1: to you when you walk onto a scene, they will say,
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Speaker 1: this is a suicide, or they'll say, my family member
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Speaker 1: committed suicide. And apparently, in this particular case, uh, when
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Speaker 1: they began to examine this woman's body, both at the
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Speaker 1: scene and back at the medical examiner's office, the two
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Speaker 1: things did not compute. Then we learn fast forward to
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Speaker 1: the dad, Lloyd ni Rider, just forty six years old,
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Speaker 1: up on the top of a roof of a parking garage,
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Speaker 1: threatening to jump, trying to escape off the top of
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Speaker 1: a parking garage to Pamela for investigative reporter, why is
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Speaker 1: Lloyd ni rider on top of a parking garage, a
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Speaker 1: multi level parking garage. I mean, he's the only parent
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Speaker 1: these two girls have left. What's he doing up there
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Speaker 1: and trying to jump to get away from police. That's
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Speaker 1: a very good question. I mean, last week, search warrants
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Speaker 1: were issued not only for the home where Michelle's body
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Speaker 1: was found, but Lloyd's home as well and a daughter's home.
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Speaker 1: Lloyd's home was being investigated in New Jersey. That's where
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Speaker 1: he lived in New north Unswick. They didn't find him
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Speaker 1: in his house, but because people were looking for him,
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Speaker 1: the Princeton Police Department in New Jersey found him parked
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Speaker 1: in a garage. He was in his car and as
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Speaker 1: police approached him, he got out of that car and
14:15
Speaker 1: he ran to the ledge on top of the parking garage,
14:19
Speaker 1: stood there and threatened to jump, and they tried to
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Speaker 1: talk him down. They couldn't talk him down, so the
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Speaker 1: police went ahead and got him, grabbed him to take
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Speaker 1: They tackled him and it's tackled him yep. Well, you know,
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Speaker 1: there he was Joseph Scott Morgan holding himself hostage. And
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Speaker 1: I always think of O. J. Simpson, you know, riding
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Speaker 1: along in his white broncho with allegedly we only have A. C.
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Speaker 1: Colling's word for it, holding a gun to his own head,
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Speaker 1: threatening that if police didn't quit following him, he would
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Speaker 1: kill himself. He was holding himself hostage. So here we
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Speaker 1: have it again. Lead me alone, I'll jump. You know,
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Speaker 1: he's basically holding himself hostage on top of a parking deck.
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Speaker 1: It never works when you hold yourself hostage. Joe Scott, No, no,
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Speaker 1: it doesn't. Uh. And it seems like in all of
15:15
Speaker 1: these cases, and I don't know for anybody else in
15:18
Speaker 1: the audience, but I've actually been trapped in traffic, uh,
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Speaker 1: because people are threatening to jump off of a viaduct
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Speaker 1: over over Interstate Highway for hours and hours and hours,
15:30
Speaker 1: and it seems inevitably that they always get the person.
15:32
Speaker 1: Are you actually complaining that a person about to kill
15:36
Speaker 1: themselves slow down your community? Am I hearing that? Yeah?
15:40
Speaker 1: I sure am, and definitively, uh, particularly when I know
15:45
Speaker 1: in in one particular case where I was sitting there,
15:48
Speaker 1: there was a guy that was scheduled to do he
15:50
Speaker 1: was a neuro search and he was trying to get
15:51
Speaker 1: to the hospital to do brain surgery and was trapped
15:54
Speaker 1: in the same traffic gym and person died. So it's
15:59
Speaker 1: uh uh just a marketly selfish event to engage. Well,
16:03
Speaker 1: here you go. Here's the bombshell. Two suspects make this
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Speaker 1: woman's death look like a suicide to suspects, and it
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Speaker 1: doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out that the father,
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Speaker 1: Lloyd ny Rider, is one of those suspects. The other
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Speaker 1: her daughter Pamela for please tell me I'm wrong. Unfortunately,
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Speaker 1: you're not wrong. But let's be clear. It's the twenty
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Speaker 1: year old daughter, not the younger fourteen year old at
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Speaker 1: this point, it's the twenty year old who's attending college
16:41
Speaker 1: at Rochester Institute of Technology. She was arrested for murder
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Speaker 1: by the Corning Police along with the father. Uh. She
16:50
Speaker 1: was taken into custody. She didn't have any issues like
16:53
Speaker 1: her father did. She was arranged. She's in jail without
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Speaker 1: bond right now, but she's pleading not guilty. At this point,
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Speaker 1: she's not really talking to anybody. Uh So we don't
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Speaker 1: know what kind of motive there would have been. We
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Speaker 1: also don't know what they found when they issued those
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Speaker 1: search warrants that led them to arrest Carrie. But that's
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Speaker 1: the bombshell the twenty year old daughter may have tried
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Speaker 1: to fake uh the suicide and instead of it's a homicide.
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Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, host of Fatal Vows. You know, I
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Speaker 1: remember as a little girl waking up first thing in
17:29
Speaker 1: the morning to get ready for school, getting up at
17:33
Speaker 1: a quarter of seven, and when I would go into
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Speaker 1: the kitchen, there would be three plates of grits and
17:40
Speaker 1: hot coffee, half coffee, half milk for us to drink,
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Speaker 1: everything laid out, and my mother would be long gone
17:48
Speaker 1: to work. She would get home in the evening. I
17:53
Speaker 1: could remember, like it was right now, blowing the horn
17:57
Speaker 1: coming up the driveway to come in and egg dinner,
18:01
Speaker 1: and we would all be together as a family. And
18:03
Speaker 1: now I think back on what the toll that took
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Speaker 1: on her, and it was her and my dad, but
18:11
Speaker 1: mostly my mom. At night when I'd be sick, feeding
18:14
Speaker 1: me ice chips to get my fever down, it would
18:18
Speaker 1: be her helping me rehearse my four age presentations, you know,
18:23
Speaker 1: both of them, with me helping me through. Even up
18:26
Speaker 1: until when I was a prosecutor driving to Atlanta, when
18:30
Speaker 1: I would be out at four and five in the morning,
18:32
Speaker 1: trying to rouse to witnesses out of their crack houses
18:36
Speaker 1: to come to court. They would be there. They would
18:40
Speaker 1: come to court watch me try that case all and
18:44
Speaker 1: when my children were born and the three of us
18:47
Speaker 1: nearly died, they were there. I mean, how could you
18:52
Speaker 1: turn on your own mother, Brian. One of the things
18:57
Speaker 1: that talking about these cases does for people like you
19:00
Speaker 1: and me, I think, is it really reminds us of
19:03
Speaker 1: what wonderful gifts we got from parents who were there
19:07
Speaker 1: for us. Both of them were saying and committed to
19:10
Speaker 1: each other and to us. But in answer to your question,
19:13
Speaker 1: fatal Vas has been on the air now for five seasons.
19:15
Speaker 1: We've we've made dozens and dozens of episodes, but not
19:18
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of episodes. And I've seen this more
19:22
Speaker 1: than once. I've seen this in more than one of
19:24
Speaker 1: our episodes, where a parent actually enlists one of their
19:27
Speaker 1: children to kill that child's other parents, and you just think,
19:31
Speaker 1: my god, you think it's the height of depravity when
19:34
Speaker 1: you see just the murder, and then you realize that
19:37
Speaker 1: not only was this person so sociopathic, so narcissistic as
19:41
Speaker 1: to commit murder for whatever selfish reasons they had, but
19:45
Speaker 1: also to ruin their child's character, ruin their child's life.
19:50
Speaker 1: And it might even be worse in this case because
19:52
Speaker 1: the fourteen year old daughter apparently at least was in
19:55
Speaker 1: the house. It's tough to imagine this all happening without
19:58
Speaker 1: the fourteen year old having some idea that something very
20:01
Speaker 1: profoundly horrible was occurring in the house. She may end
20:04
Speaker 1: up having to be a witness now, at the very
20:08
Speaker 1: least to this. Right now, I'm bringing it back home,
20:12
Speaker 1: Joe Scott. To those two little girls, I remember them
20:15
Speaker 1: right now. They were so cute. And I remember when
20:19
Speaker 1: I my mom finally told me that their mom had
20:23
Speaker 1: committed suicide. I said why, and she said, I don't know.
20:30
Speaker 1: Because there was a really popular radio show and uh
20:35
Speaker 1: on w my z is, I can't remember anymore, and
20:39
Speaker 1: um the slug and was keep on keeping on. And
20:42
Speaker 1: this mom would call in to the radio show all
20:46
Speaker 1: the time and talk and she was funny and witty
20:51
Speaker 1: and smart. You know, Dr Russell, when we say why,
20:57
Speaker 1: you don't know, But there does have to be a
21:00
Speaker 1: why for suicide. But for this fourteen year old girl
21:04
Speaker 1: to go through thinking her mom had left her own
21:08
Speaker 1: purpose and committed suicide to now learn her father and
21:12
Speaker 1: sister are charged in mom's murder. What could possibly be
21:17
Speaker 1: the motive? You know, it's bad enough in in all
21:21
Speaker 1: of the fatal vast cases involving children, I always talk
21:25
Speaker 1: about how, you know, the children are essentially orphaned because
21:29
Speaker 1: one parents dead and the other one usually is in
21:31
Speaker 1: prison for life or decades at least. But in this case,
21:35
Speaker 1: we're talking about this girl's entire family. So here's this dad, who,
21:40
Speaker 1: if he's guilty, allegedly was willing for whatever selfish reasons
21:45
Speaker 1: of his own and he's mad at his ex wife
21:47
Speaker 1: for whatever myriad of reasons people have to be mad
21:49
Speaker 1: at their exes. He's willing to destroy his daughter's life
21:55
Speaker 1: who participated, who, if she's guilty, will be you know,
21:59
Speaker 1: a sin actually having her life over. And then also
22:04
Speaker 1: the fourteen year old to to not only orphan her
22:07
Speaker 1: but basically take away her entire family. Just the profoundness
22:11
Speaker 1: of the narcissism of that, uh, you know, and and
22:15
Speaker 1: then the big act that the big Swan song of
22:18
Speaker 1: threatening to do a swan dive off the parking garage.
22:21
Speaker 1: I'm with Joe Scott on that, you know, I'm not
22:25
Speaker 1: sure I would have worked really hard to talk him down.
22:27
Speaker 1: I'm telling you just the way this whole thing has
22:30
Speaker 1: played out. I don't know if we know this yet.
22:32
Speaker 1: Pamela Fir invest to get every reporter, But who has
22:35
Speaker 1: the fourteen year old? What's going to happen to her?
22:38
Speaker 1: Now that the dead Lloyd ni Rider and the twenty
22:43
Speaker 1: year old daughter, Carrie ni Rider have both been arrested,
22:48
Speaker 1: Where's the fourteen year old? Who's taking care of her?
22:50
Speaker 1: It's my understanding that she's with other family members, but
22:54
Speaker 1: I don't have the details on which family member, if
22:57
Speaker 1: it's a you know, a brother or grandparents of Michelle.
23:02
Speaker 1: But it's my understanding she is with family members. But
23:04
Speaker 1: I would like to point out something else you brought
23:07
Speaker 1: it up earlier, Nancy, about the domestic abuse calls at
23:11
Speaker 1: Michelle's home. My question, as you pointed out now, it
23:15
Speaker 1: may not have been Lloyd the father, but carry the
23:17
Speaker 1: twenty year old. Could there have been domestic violence with
23:21
Speaker 1: one of the daughters that they saw for several years
23:25
Speaker 1: and it came to a head with something like this,
23:28
Speaker 1: and that the fourteen year old was exposed to that
23:31
Speaker 1: as she was growing up, so she she is this
23:34
Speaker 1: fourteen year old is gonna have a lot of damnage.
23:36
Speaker 1: You know what, Pamela, You are so right and right
23:41
Speaker 1: now I am just saying a prayer for that fourteen
23:44
Speaker 1: year old little nigh Rider girl. He was going to
23:47
Speaker 1: live the rest of her life without her mother and
23:51
Speaker 1: very likely if police are to be believed without her
23:54
Speaker 1: father and sister. God be with that child and we
23:59
Speaker 1: are watching as justice un false switching gears. You know,
24:05
Speaker 1: I got up at five o'clock this morning, Joe Scott.
24:08
Speaker 1: You know the twins because they had a big project.
24:11
Speaker 1: Do you today, Jo Scott? Why can't you they just
24:13
Speaker 1: read a book and write a book report? Is that?
24:17
Speaker 1: I have no idea. It takes three people from M
24:19
Speaker 1: I T to try to work out some kind of
24:22
Speaker 1: project that they have never found out about it until
24:24
Speaker 1: the night. Well, I'm supposed to be going online reading
24:28
Speaker 1: the website, but I mean, if I work on one
24:31
Speaker 1: more diorama or shoe box story or this time it
24:36
Speaker 1: was comic strips, no offense. I know the teachers are
24:39
Speaker 1: trying to make them bring in their creativity, but one
24:42
Speaker 1: who will not be identified, just does it no problem.
24:45
Speaker 1: The other we have to bargain and beg and hide
24:48
Speaker 1: the iPad and blah blah blah. Anyway, my point is
24:52
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26:36
Speaker 1: And now we are heading across the country. A small
26:40
Speaker 1: town wife and mom found dead in the street, not
26:45
Speaker 1: far from her own home she shared with her husband
26:48
Speaker 1: and little child. A neighbor finds her and the condition
26:52
Speaker 1: of her body. She's wearing nothing but a sports bra
26:57
Speaker 1: and the scene looks so stage, but side her is
27:00
Speaker 1: a liquor bottle with this is first thing in the morning,
27:05
Speaker 1: with a cell phone lying neatly arranged directly on top
27:10
Speaker 1: of the liquor bottle as if please see me. Joining
27:15
Speaker 1: me from Radar online dot Com investigative reporter Alexis terres Chuck.
27:20
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell from Discoveries Fatal Vows, Joseph Scott Morgan
27:25
Speaker 1: forensics expert to you, Alexis torres Chuck. There's been a
27:29
Speaker 1: break in the case, but let's take it from the beginning.
27:33
Speaker 1: Tell me how Kathleen West, who's just absolutely gorgeous. How
27:39
Speaker 1: this mom, the suburban soccer mom, is found dead outside
27:44
Speaker 1: her home in the street, half naked with a cell
27:48
Speaker 1: phone and a liquor bottle. So a neighbor is out
27:51
Speaker 1: in there neighborhood in about six o'clock in the morning
27:55
Speaker 1: and they spot this horrifying scene. But this is their neighbor,
27:59
Speaker 1: this woman, Kathleen, and she is face and she is
28:01
Speaker 1: only as you said, she's only wearing sports bra. She
28:04
Speaker 1: is naked everywhere else and passed out on the street
28:07
Speaker 1: with blood everywhere, huge gash on her head. And so
28:11
Speaker 1: she was discovered by a name She's She's not far
28:13
Speaker 1: from her house at all. Now. It's a very small
28:16
Speaker 1: town of Selera, and she was the prettiest and the
28:21
Speaker 1: most youthful looking mom in the neighborhood and at the school.
28:25
Speaker 1: On Facebook, she describes herself as a full time wife
28:29
Speaker 1: and mommy, a neighbor's daughter. As Alexis is telling us,
28:34
Speaker 1: was up on our way to work and finds a
28:38
Speaker 1: dead body. To Dr Brian Russell Investigation Discoveries Fatal Vows
28:44
Speaker 1: Star Brian, you're the psychologist. That's certainly something you never forget.
28:49
Speaker 1: I mean I haven't forgotten a single one of the
28:52
Speaker 1: dead bodies that I you know, represented the victims in
28:56
Speaker 1: and felonies. I remember every single one of them, uh,
29:00
Speaker 1: you know, for many different reasons, often odd reasons, like
29:04
Speaker 1: I recall this is funny odd, Dr Brian. I remember
29:09
Speaker 1: them for odd reasons, like I remember one young teen boy.
29:13
Speaker 1: He was killed from a carjacking. But what I remember
29:16
Speaker 1: about him is that when a neighbor heard the shooting,
29:20
Speaker 1: they ran out with a pillow and put it under
29:23
Speaker 1: the boy's head as he died. I remember old woman
29:28
Speaker 1: whose husband hit her in the head and burned the
29:29
Speaker 1: house down, and when police drove up, he was lounging
29:33
Speaker 1: a romanesque and the yard across the street, and they
29:35
Speaker 1: talked to him five minutes before he said, oh yeah,
29:38
Speaker 1: my wife's in there. I mean, they just odd things. Um.
29:44
Speaker 1: I remember about all those murder trials. But in this
29:48
Speaker 1: particular case, what about the neighbor's daughter, who's the one
29:53
Speaker 1: that finds the body? Dr Brian. For you as a prosecutor,
29:58
Speaker 1: and for people like my brother who are firefighters E.
30:01
Speaker 1: M T s. People who like my dad who are
30:04
Speaker 1: who are cops, you know, they unfortunately as part of
30:08
Speaker 1: their career, they're gonna come across a number of deceased people.
30:13
Speaker 1: For most individuals that fortunately, that is not a routine
30:18
Speaker 1: part of their jobs or their lives. And so it's
30:20
Speaker 1: it's shocking enough just to come across a deceased individual,
30:25
Speaker 1: and then you overlay on top of that the additional
30:29
Speaker 1: shock of realizing this isn't just a deceased human being.
30:34
Speaker 1: That's shocking enough. This is somebody I know. This is
30:39
Speaker 1: somebody from my neighborhood. This is somebody I used to
30:42
Speaker 1: pass and say hi to on the street, maybe as
30:44
Speaker 1: recently as yesterday. We also are learning to Joseph Scott Morgan,
30:49
Speaker 1: forensics expert professor at Jacksonville State University. Joseph Scott um,
30:55
Speaker 1: she we now know was bleeding from her head. So
31:01
Speaker 1: this is the manner of death, bleeding from the head
31:05
Speaker 1: on the street, half naked, seen staged, early morning hours.
31:15
Speaker 1: Speak to those circumstances. For one thing, we can pretty
31:20
Speaker 1: much rule out of suicide because I mean, if you
31:22
Speaker 1: study it, the method and assessment of homicide and suicide,
31:26
Speaker 1: it's a cold day and h E double l that
31:29
Speaker 1: a female kills herself and this is across all races
31:34
Speaker 1: and ages and socio economic status without her clothes on.
31:39
Speaker 1: It may be innate, it may be ingrained, but that
31:42
Speaker 1: says to me right there, she did not kill herself
31:46
Speaker 1: by shooting herself out in the neighborhood. Half dressed. Women
31:51
Speaker 1: typically don't even do that in the privacy of their home,
31:54
Speaker 1: much less they don't shoot themselves in the head or
31:57
Speaker 1: the face area. It's just that's just to satistical, uh truth.
32:03
Speaker 1: So what does this say what we're learning about the
32:06
Speaker 1: crime scene? Say to you before I give you the bobshell,
32:11
Speaker 1: just just the fact that you've come across a woman
32:14
Speaker 1: that is, uh, you know, wearing only a sports brought
32:18
Speaker 1: and nothing else that in and of itself out in
32:22
Speaker 1: an open, exposed area. It's gonna give me pause to
32:25
Speaker 1: think that first off, when I look at this, that
32:28
Speaker 1: it could be first off, something sexual in nature. Uh
32:32
Speaker 1: that's going on because of the condition, the status of
32:35
Speaker 1: the body's clothing or absence thereof. And also what what's
32:40
Speaker 1: the significance of of her body being um, being in
32:44
Speaker 1: front of her home. I think that that's that's very
32:47
Speaker 1: important here as opposed to we don't just have a
32:50
Speaker 1: deceased attractive woman here in uh in uh less than
32:56
Speaker 1: normal dress. We've got a woman that's dead in front
32:59
Speaker 1: of her home. If this was something else, why wasn't
33:01
Speaker 1: her body removed? Why wasn't out of sight? No one
33:04
Speaker 1: has taken the opportunity to hide the body, you know,
33:08
Speaker 1: seclude the body in some way. So it raises a
33:11
Speaker 1: myriad of questions Nancy. Well, typically when it is someone
33:14
Speaker 1: that you know, they hide the body. I mean, you
33:19
Speaker 1: don't sneak to kill somebody and then leave the body
33:23
Speaker 1: in playing view. If it's a carjack or an arm
33:27
Speaker 1: robbery that turns out to be a murderer, typically the
33:31
Speaker 1: body will be lating right there because the person takes off,
33:35
Speaker 1: but you know, gets out of the scene as fast
33:37
Speaker 1: as they can. So here we have the dichotomy of
33:42
Speaker 1: the woman being close to home, which you would make
33:46
Speaker 1: you look at the husband, who was not a suspect
33:50
Speaker 1: by the way, or a person of interest. But if
33:51
Speaker 1: it were the husband, why would he leave the body
33:54
Speaker 1: out in playing view. That's the more indicative of a
33:58
Speaker 1: random killing, not the husband, So it lanes towards it
34:03
Speaker 1: not being had to hold on Alexis to rest Chuck,
34:06
Speaker 1: investigative reporter Radar Online dot com. What's the Cougar Club
34:11
Speaker 1: and how does that fit into this scenario. So, Kathleen West,
34:14
Speaker 1: as you said, wholesome mom, prettiest mommy in the school, beautiful,
34:18
Speaker 1: beautiful year old woman was a member of the Cougar Club.
34:21
Speaker 1: And this is an online subscription only for adults only
34:24
Speaker 1: club where women who were over the age of thirty
34:27
Speaker 1: five post sexy pictures of themselves that are sexy selfies,
34:32
Speaker 1: you know, showing them in bikinis and show him in Alexis,
34:35
Speaker 1: if I like, if I look like this woman, I
34:38
Speaker 1: might post to Let me just tell you this a
34:40
Speaker 1: couple of years Well, it was ten years ago, and um,
34:45
Speaker 1: I was pregnant, but I had not revealed that yet.
34:48
Speaker 1: I was about three months pregnant, and I I was
34:53
Speaker 1: on a show. I think I told you the story
34:55
Speaker 1: Alexis when you were pregnant. I was on I I
35:00
Speaker 1: can't even remember what show was on, but anyway, it
35:02
Speaker 1: was in a commercial break and I had a blazer
35:05
Speaker 1: and a blouse and jeans and my boots that I'm
35:08
Speaker 1: wearing right now, and I leaned over to get a
35:12
Speaker 1: tissue that was sitting on the table in front of
35:15
Speaker 1: me on the set somebody took a picture of me
35:18
Speaker 1: leaning over and of course my tummy came over my jeans,
35:23
Speaker 1: and the Globe posted it, which is there right under
35:27
Speaker 1: the First Amendment, beside Jack Nicholson, who was very obese
35:33
Speaker 1: at that time and put anchors away a w E.
35:39
Speaker 1: I of course wasn't mortified, because you know there's that
35:46
Speaker 1: old addics there's no such thing as bad press. Well,
35:48
Speaker 1: I can tell you right now that is not true
35:51
Speaker 1: since that time, Dr Brian Russell, maybe I need a
35:54
Speaker 1: private session with you. I take the twins to the
35:57
Speaker 1: swimming pool. I just jumped into my clothes and uh,
36:01
Speaker 1: you know, with a mask over my face swimming. You know,
36:06
Speaker 1: other moms have on cute outfits and swimsuits. I just
36:09
Speaker 1: walk up and just jump in. I spend the rest
36:11
Speaker 1: of the afternoon in the pool and my fully clothed
36:14
Speaker 1: because it's you know, over my dead body. Is another
36:17
Speaker 1: shot a photo going to come out at me like that?
36:20
Speaker 1: So maybe if I look like this, lady, Dr Brian Russell,
36:25
Speaker 1: I'm my post shots of myself too. Well, here's what
36:29
Speaker 1: I think about that. I think that when you are
36:33
Speaker 1: a single individual, you're a single woman, and you want
36:37
Speaker 1: to uh, you know, show yourself off and all that.
36:41
Speaker 1: It's one you have to be single to show off
36:44
Speaker 1: your your cuteness. Well, here's here's what I think that
36:48
Speaker 1: sense a double standard. No, no, no, no, it's not.
36:53
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be a double standard. I think when
36:55
Speaker 1: you are a married person man or woman, the only
36:59
Speaker 1: sexual needs, desires, fantasies that you ought to be catering
37:05
Speaker 1: to and the only, uh, the only person that is
37:08
Speaker 1: supposed to be catering to yours is your spouse. And
37:13
Speaker 1: any time you get yourself involved in any kind of
37:16
Speaker 1: illicit sexual activities, whether it's pornography or putting pictures of
37:22
Speaker 1: yourself up for other people to get off on whatever,
37:26
Speaker 1: it's going to see prostitutes while you're traveling for whoa, whoa,
37:29
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is getting a little far afield
37:32
Speaker 1: from a mom posting shots of herself she looks like
37:35
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe and showing her cleavand and wearing a little
37:39
Speaker 1: kittycat headband. That's a far cry from hooking up with
37:43
Speaker 1: prostitutes when you're traveling. What what about death protests? Too
37:49
Speaker 1: much too Shakespeare. Here's here's the point. You when you
37:54
Speaker 1: do stuff like that, you are inviting into your life
37:58
Speaker 1: a group of people that are going to include some
38:02
Speaker 1: some very seedy characters that you don't want to invite in.
38:06
Speaker 1: And you're also you're also getting involved in something that
38:10
Speaker 1: for many people becomes an escalating pattern of behavior where
38:15
Speaker 1: it starts. So now it's for posing online. Dr Brian,
38:21
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think. I don't I don't agree
38:24
Speaker 1: with you. Um, just because I don't have the figure
38:27
Speaker 1: to post myself online like like she did, that does
38:31
Speaker 1: not mean that she somehow is responsible for her own murder.
38:35
Speaker 1: I disagree with that, although I do see when you
38:39
Speaker 1: post yourself out there, people find out about you and
38:45
Speaker 1: try to track you. Okay with that part, I agree.
38:49
Speaker 1: Take a lista to what we learned about the Cougar Club.
38:53
Speaker 1: I wish for everyone to stop trying to connect online
38:58
Speaker 1: photos to her passing. It's not like that, Okay. It
39:01
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean in discretions, It doesn't. It's they're just pictures.
39:07
Speaker 1: That is her friend from the Cougar Club, Sandy K
39:10
Speaker 1: speaking to our friends at inside. Addition, back to Alexis
39:14
Speaker 1: Torres Chuck rightar online dot com. So she's a member
39:18
Speaker 1: of the Cougar Club. What exactly do they do? They
39:21
Speaker 1: post pictures of themselves and in any sort of provocative
39:24
Speaker 1: way that you want, whether it's abroad. She really liked
39:28
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe, so she sort of tried to emulate a
39:30
Speaker 1: lot of her poses, and she really looked like her.
39:32
Speaker 1: But she was one of the women that was considered
39:35
Speaker 1: almost like a mom within this group because she was
39:38
Speaker 1: very supportive of all the other women and really cheering
39:42
Speaker 1: them on, saying like, you know, girls have a great body,
39:44
Speaker 1: you look wonderful. Okay, tell me a side thing, Alexis.
39:46
Speaker 1: Just how serious was the online I mean the shots
39:50
Speaker 1: I see of her, she's you know, she's dressed provocatively,
39:55
Speaker 1: but she's dressed, she's got on on. She's not naked. No, no,
39:58
Speaker 1: when you go on to her the website though with
40:02
Speaker 1: a subscription fee, um does does she? Is she naked?
40:08
Speaker 1: Is she okay? All right? So to me, that's a
40:12
Speaker 1: big difference. And we know that in the past months
40:16
Speaker 1: there has been a spate of deaths amongst let me
40:20
Speaker 1: just say, adult entertainers. August Aims, Olivia Luis Olivia Nova
40:27
Speaker 1: who died from unknown causes and now what's her name? Online?
40:32
Speaker 1: Kitty Cat West, Kitty Cat West. Wait a minute, hold on, Alexis,
40:38
Speaker 1: hold on. I hate to tell you this, but someone
40:41
Speaker 1: wants to correct you. Someone who's obviously subscribed to kitticat
40:48
Speaker 1: West's website. Okay, Alan, sorry, Alexis, you just didn't dig
40:52
Speaker 1: deep in depp. Okay, you haven't spent hours in front
40:55
Speaker 1: of your screen watching Kitty Cat West. Okay, Alan Douke,
40:59
Speaker 1: cough up. If you go to her Twitter account, you
41:02
Speaker 1: will see some some nude photos from the backside, if
41:06
Speaker 1: you will. There's that shot from the refrigerator that I
41:09
Speaker 1: think we actually have Crime Online dot Com has it
41:13
Speaker 1: proud place right now. Okay, on Twitter and there's there
41:17
Speaker 1: are a couple of others. It's it's I guess you
41:20
Speaker 1: could say tastefully done. I don't know, but there are
41:22
Speaker 1: nudes and they are on Twitter. She only had three
41:26
Speaker 1: Twitter followers. If I'd known about those pictures, should have
41:28
Speaker 1: three really nice shots. Okay, I'm gonna try to move forward,
41:33
Speaker 1: even with Alan dragging him on a path of decency. Okay, yes,
41:38
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell, pull me out of the gutter here. Well,
41:41
Speaker 1: I just want to say that this is an illustration
41:45
Speaker 1: of the other thing that I was talking about that.
41:47
Speaker 1: And not only do you invite a group of people
41:50
Speaker 1: into your life when you put yourself out there, well
41:57
Speaker 1: you also, for many p bowl you get yourself involved
42:02
Speaker 1: in something that, uh, it's a little bit like a
42:05
Speaker 1: drug where a little bit doesn't go as long of
42:09
Speaker 1: a way as it once did. And so you start
42:11
Speaker 1: out doing some racy photos but clothed, and then that
42:15
Speaker 1: doesn't quite give you the thriller, that doesn't quite get
42:17
Speaker 1: the response that it once did. And so now you're
42:20
Speaker 1: escalating it. Now you've got some nude photos and and
42:23
Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that that happened. This happened in
42:26
Speaker 1: this case, but I wouldn't be surprised if at some point,
42:30
Speaker 1: especially when you're asking people to pay money to see
42:33
Speaker 1: this stuff, it doesn't escalate to well, maybe it wouldn't
42:37
Speaker 1: hurt to let one of these people actually meet me,
42:39
Speaker 1: especially if they're going to pay money and it and
42:42
Speaker 1: it could hurt a lot, it could, Brian, I want,
42:44
Speaker 1: I just want to run something by you. When I
42:47
Speaker 1: was in school to be a Shakespearean literature professor and
42:51
Speaker 1: my fiancee was murdered shortly before our wedding. Um as
42:56
Speaker 1: you probably know. I think I've told you I dropped
42:59
Speaker 1: out of school. I was aimless. I wouldn't go back.
43:02
Speaker 1: I was overcome with grief, lost down to about eighty
43:06
Speaker 1: six pounds, and I decided to go back with the
43:09
Speaker 1: aim of going to law school to become a felony
43:12
Speaker 1: prosecutor to try and save other victims the pain that
43:16
Speaker 1: I went through. My parents did not want me to
43:21
Speaker 1: become a felony prosecutor. They did not want me around
43:26
Speaker 1: felony level crime. They did not want me driving around
43:31
Speaker 1: with convicted rapists in my car trying to find a
43:35
Speaker 1: killer um, which that's just one scenario. And it dawned
43:41
Speaker 1: on me Dr Russell that the people I consorted with,
43:48
Speaker 1: some people would refer to what is going to hell
43:50
Speaker 1: to get witnesses to put the devil in jail. But
43:52
Speaker 1: some of them, no matter what side of town they
43:55
Speaker 1: came from, no matter what their history was, whether they
43:59
Speaker 1: had dealt rugs, are being convicted on all sorts of crimes.
44:03
Speaker 1: Some of them ended up being more decent people then
44:08
Speaker 1: the rich, educated people I came in contact with. I
44:11
Speaker 1: remember one really really wealthy guy with all sorts of
44:15
Speaker 1: degrees that killed his wife actually put a hank on
44:17
Speaker 1: me at the end of the trial, something about the
44:20
Speaker 1: blood of your ancestors blah blah blah will follow you forever.
44:25
Speaker 1: As they hauled him off to jail. I still remember it.
44:28
Speaker 1: I mean, you know the way some people behave. My
44:32
Speaker 1: point is when you get in a certain may lieu,
44:36
Speaker 1: then you have to take into account the risk of that.
44:41
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell and oh ALANGI let me defend you.
44:45
Speaker 1: I'm sure you subscribed for purely journalistic reasons, exactly to
44:50
Speaker 1: further the story. So Dr Russell, I don't know if
44:54
Speaker 1: this mom now known as kitticat West had any idea
45:00
Speaker 1: who she was dealing with by posting racy pictures online. Yeah,
45:04
Speaker 1: she may not have. You know, you uh, you mentioned
45:07
Speaker 1: the fact that that your parents were concerned that by
45:10
Speaker 1: doing the work that you did, that you were perhaps
45:14
Speaker 1: you know, it's at times, and I'm sure you were
45:16
Speaker 1: at times putting yourself in uh, in places and around
45:21
Speaker 1: people that could have been dangerous. And and the reason
45:24
Speaker 1: that in your case that was noble is because of
45:28
Speaker 1: the important, you know, positive impact on society of the
45:33
Speaker 1: work that you were doing. I don't think that, especially
45:37
Speaker 1: somebody who's got children for whom they're responsible. UH can
45:41
Speaker 1: make that argument even if they say, well, I was
45:44
Speaker 1: making money and that was helping the family. UH. A
45:47
Speaker 1: lot better ways to make money as a mom and
45:49
Speaker 1: contribute to the household finances than this, And now a
45:53
Speaker 1: break in the story. In the last hours, new images
45:58
Speaker 1: of the so called double life dead mom Kittykat West
46:04
Speaker 1: reveal her buying whiskey and absent on her last night alive.
46:11
Speaker 1: To Alexis Torres Chuck, investigative reporter with Radar online dot Com,
46:16
Speaker 1: what she was spotted in a liquor store the night
46:19
Speaker 1: before her body was found, and surveillance video shows her
46:23
Speaker 1: fully dressed. She was with a guy. She bought a
46:26
Speaker 1: bottle of whiskey in a bottle of absence, which is
46:28
Speaker 1: a super super strong liquor like nobody should ever drink it,
46:32
Speaker 1: and she the guys with her. He's seen actually patting
46:35
Speaker 1: her on the butt in the video. She looks as
46:38
Speaker 1: happy as can be and this is just hours before
46:41
Speaker 1: her body is found. According to Stacy oglesby a clerk.
46:47
Speaker 1: According to Stacy oglesby a clerk in the store quote
46:50
Speaker 1: they came in. It looked like they were on a
46:53
Speaker 1: date night They bought a bottle of jamison in a
46:56
Speaker 1: bottle of Lucid absinthe and made their purchase and went
46:59
Speaker 1: on their way. Everything was normal. As a matter of fact,
47:03
Speaker 1: listen to the clerk, Stacy Oglesby. They came in, they
47:07
Speaker 1: were it looked like they were a date night. They
47:10
Speaker 1: bought a bottle of jamison and a bottle of Lucid
47:13
Speaker 1: and made their purchase and went on their way, and
47:15
Speaker 1: everything seemed normal. Everything was normal, that is Stacy Oglesby
47:20
Speaker 1: speaking to our friends at Inside Edition. Footage obtained shows West,
47:26
Speaker 1: the mother of a twelve year old little girl, laughing
47:29
Speaker 1: and smiling, going through the wine and liquor aisles. There
47:35
Speaker 1: is a man, as Alexis has pointed out, walking alongside her.
47:39
Speaker 1: I don't know if he has been identified yet, but
47:44
Speaker 1: the husband, Jeff, who we believed to be a campus
47:48
Speaker 1: police officer at Birmingham's Southern College. His family wants to
47:53
Speaker 1: mourn privately. Okay, do you blame him? They've got a
47:56
Speaker 1: twelve year old daughter. What what is the point? I mean,
48:03
Speaker 1: let me rephrase. What do we learn from this video?
48:09
Speaker 1: One thing I'd like to thank Joe Scott Morgan, forensics
48:12
Speaker 1: expert is that I could tell something about was she
48:16
Speaker 1: wearing the same clothes? Could she have been killed that
48:20
Speaker 1: night instead of in the morning. What happened to her clothes?
48:25
Speaker 1: Are the clothes she's wearing at I think it was
48:29
Speaker 1: R and R wine or something like that. Are those
48:31
Speaker 1: clothes gone? Have they been burned? Are they in a
48:35
Speaker 1: nearby trash dump? That's very critical because that would tell
48:40
Speaker 1: me she was killed the night before. What can you
48:43
Speaker 1: tell from the body is to the time of death.
48:45
Speaker 1: She may never have made it home the night before. Yeah, yeah,
48:48
Speaker 1: you're you're right, Nancy. And not just the time of death,
48:52
Speaker 1: but also the position of the body. Was she killed
48:55
Speaker 1: somewhere else where, say, for instance, things like blood settling
49:00
Speaker 1: or postmorder avidity has set it in another region, and
49:02
Speaker 1: then she's placed in a uh the an alternative position
49:06
Speaker 1: at the scene, and it makes it look inconsistent. Another
49:09
Speaker 1: thing is that in this footage, uh we see her
49:13
Speaker 1: dressed as she's dressed, but we we all we know
49:16
Speaker 1: the only piece of clothing she had was this sports bra.
49:21
Speaker 1: Here's another really key key part here, Nancy. Do you
49:25
Speaker 1: remember what they said that the cell phone was found
49:28
Speaker 1: at the scene either adjacent to our with a bottle
49:34
Speaker 1: sitting on top of it, and they've referred to a
49:37
Speaker 1: liquor bottle. This liquor bottle, if I remember correctly, was
49:41
Speaker 1: green in color. The store clerk said that she, uh,
49:45
Speaker 1: and this other person had purchased. Um. Lucid is the
49:50
Speaker 1: is the the name, the name brand Lucid absent there
49:54
Speaker 1: at the bar, along with Jamison, which is an Irish whiskey,
49:57
Speaker 1: but Lucid absent. This is the only type of absence
50:01
Speaker 1: that is made in the traditional way. And uh, it's
50:04
Speaker 1: it's quite, it's quite. The drink very powerful. Um causes
50:10
Speaker 1: some people to hallucinate, this sort of thing. Um. And
50:13
Speaker 1: if that's at the scene and it's empty, I'd really
50:16
Speaker 1: like to know from the autopsy not just where this
50:20
Speaker 1: blood was coming from her head, but also what her
50:23
Speaker 1: level of toxicity was, what level of alcohol was in
50:27
Speaker 1: her system. That's a that's quite a bit of alcohol
50:30
Speaker 1: to have consumed, particularly when it comes to absolute. You know,
50:33
Speaker 1: her mother, Nancy Martin is posting that the family is
50:38
Speaker 1: asking for prayers and this is not a time to
50:43
Speaker 1: judge this young mom. This is a time I agree
50:48
Speaker 1: with her mother to pray for the little girl. The
50:52
Speaker 1: twelve year old girl who will never have her mom
50:55
Speaker 1: for the rest of her life. Yeah, some people may, morally,
51:00
Speaker 1: I guess Morley disagree with her posting shots of herself
51:04
Speaker 1: naked or in racy clothing. But we, unless one of
51:10
Speaker 1: us has never committed to sin, I don't believe we
51:13
Speaker 1: have a leg to stand on. I'll let you guys
51:16
Speaker 1: throw the first stone, because it is not gonna be me.
51:20
Speaker 1: This is about a murder. That is what this is about.
51:25
Speaker 1: Take a listen to what this beautiful young mom's neighbor
51:31
Speaker 1: has to say. It's got everybody a little bit on
51:33
Speaker 1: the edge and a little uneasy right now. We just
51:35
Speaker 1: want to answer. You know, Joseph Scott Morgan, when you
51:38
Speaker 1: go into warp speed on describing how you process a body,
51:43
Speaker 1: you'll lose a lot of people, including me. Sometimes when
51:46
Speaker 1: you say lividity, what that means is in my late
51:49
Speaker 1: person understanding, I'm just a j D. I mean you
51:53
Speaker 1: and Brian Russell can lord it over me that he's
51:56
Speaker 1: a lawyer and a psychologist and you're a forensics expert.
52:00
Speaker 1: Go ahead, I don't mind. Lividity to my understanding is
52:03
Speaker 1: when a body, a dead body is prone or in
52:07
Speaker 1: any position. Sitting at the wheel of a car, uh
52:11
Speaker 1: in somebody's car trunk, their blood is no longer pumping
52:14
Speaker 1: through their body, and therefore the blood goes down to
52:19
Speaker 1: the lowest point of the body. I e. If you're
52:21
Speaker 1: in the car trunk, laying on your back, all your
52:24
Speaker 1: blood goes down to your rear end, the back of
52:26
Speaker 1: your legs, the back of your body. Because the heart's
52:30
Speaker 1: not pumping it through the body anymore. It all sinks
52:32
Speaker 1: to the lowest level. The police or the medical examiner
52:37
Speaker 1: will determine not only the point of avidity. She's only
52:40
Speaker 1: been dead fifty minutes. There's not time for the blood
52:44
Speaker 1: to sink to the lowest level. You can also tell
52:47
Speaker 1: the time of death by rigor, the degree of rigor mortis,
52:51
Speaker 1: the stiffening of the limbs, and the temperature of the body.
52:57
Speaker 1: What about that Joseph's got Morgan? Well, that hell us
53:00
Speaker 1: And if blood was still freely flowing from the wound,
53:04
Speaker 1: that would suggest a more recent wound. If it had
53:07
Speaker 1: been hours before, the blow would have coagulated. Help me out,
53:12
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Yes or yes or no? Yes, my stars,
53:16
Speaker 1: that's the first time in the history you answer in
53:19
Speaker 1: one word, I'm stunned. Okay, So what would you expect
53:26
Speaker 1: with this chilly morning temperature, Joseph Scott Morgan? How will
53:31
Speaker 1: that helped me determine time of death? Because that's very
53:33
Speaker 1: important working with what's called the environmental temperature, ambient environmental temperature,
53:38
Speaker 1: that's the outdoor in temperature, Nancy. The key here is
53:42
Speaker 1: how is that going to affect the deceased? Remember our
53:46
Speaker 1: normal body temperatures ninety eight point six. Okay, that body
53:52
Speaker 1: temperature that we retain after death is dependent upon how
53:57
Speaker 1: cold or warm the environment is that you're in, and
54:00
Speaker 1: that's one piece to it. So if she's in a
54:03
Speaker 1: protected area when she dies, let's say a climate controlled area,
54:07
Speaker 1: riger mortis riger mortis, for instance, in the body temperature
54:12
Speaker 1: is going to move quicker. Alright, heat speeds things up.
54:17
Speaker 1: We all know this in in science experiments. Um, if
54:21
Speaker 1: if she is in a position going to uh what
54:26
Speaker 1: you were talking about gravity, the settling the blood, this
54:30
Speaker 1: is going to be key. The blood, which is liquid,
54:34
Speaker 1: even though it's not pumping through our body more still,
54:36
Speaker 1: liquid is going to seek the lowest point of gravity.
54:40
Speaker 1: The lowest point of gravity will be pulled to that position.
54:43
Speaker 1: So Let's say if she was laying on her back
54:45
Speaker 1: for an extended period of time, uh, maybe thirty forty minutes,
54:51
Speaker 1: blood will have begun to seek that area. But if
54:55
Speaker 1: she is shifted, you might have multiple places where blood
54:58
Speaker 1: has settled. So this can be rather confusing, and it's
55:02
Speaker 1: going to be key to figure out the timeline. This
55:04
Speaker 1: all goes back to tomline where she was at any
55:07
Speaker 1: particular time. That's why the CCTV footage is very key
55:12
Speaker 1: when it's coupled with the actual time which she was
55:14
Speaker 1: found dead. Alexas terres Schack, investigative reporter Radar online dot Com.
55:18
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna know anything until we get a c
55:21
Speaker 1: O D cause of death. For all I know, she
55:24
Speaker 1: uh was out, got hit by car. She could have
55:27
Speaker 1: fallen and hit her head on the curb and wasn't bleeding.
55:29
Speaker 1: It sounds like a gunshot wound into the head to
55:31
Speaker 1: me because her state of undress suggests she would not
55:36
Speaker 1: have been out for any other purpose. And we got
55:38
Speaker 1: to get an idea on who was with her at
55:40
Speaker 1: that liquor store. But depending on the time and the
55:43
Speaker 1: cause of death, she could have come back with the liquor,
55:47
Speaker 1: come home or not and then been murdered. For all
55:51
Speaker 1: I know she was out jogging that more. I don't
55:53
Speaker 1: know until I get a cause of death and a
55:55
Speaker 1: time of death. Alexas any word on that. The corner
55:59
Speaker 1: has not at anything, and neither of the police. But
56:01
Speaker 1: you were talking about the video people. It seems to
56:05
Speaker 1: be what people are understanding from the video and this
56:07
Speaker 1: has not been confirmed by the police, shap but I
56:09
Speaker 1: think it's her husband in the video with her, so
56:13
Speaker 1: it seems like it's close to the house, and they're
56:15
Speaker 1: saying that he just wants to grieve privately. There hasn't
56:18
Speaker 1: been the outpoort, you know, he hasn't had a press
56:21
Speaker 1: conference saying I need somebody to find the person that
56:24
Speaker 1: did this to my wife. I know that throws suspicion
56:29
Speaker 1: on the husband. He is not a person of interest
56:31
Speaker 1: or a suspect. But the reality is Dr Brian Russell,
56:35
Speaker 1: lawyer and psychologist, host of investigation discoveries hit series Fatal Vows.
56:40
Speaker 1: I mean, the reality is whether he's a suspect or
56:42
Speaker 1: a person of interest or not. That's where every investigation starts.
56:47
Speaker 1: And when you get married or you're in a relationship,
56:49
Speaker 1: that's just part of it. If something goes wrong, you're
56:52
Speaker 1: the first suspect statistically for statistic reasons, statistical reasons, whether
56:58
Speaker 1: you're guilty or innocent, cops are gonna look at you first.
57:00
Speaker 1: Why Well, because statistically, when it's like a target, you know,
57:05
Speaker 1: close to the bull's eye there, the people who are
57:07
Speaker 1: in the sphere that is closest around the person who's
57:11
Speaker 1: deceased are the ones that have the most access, the
57:14
Speaker 1: most acts to grind. Usually there there are all kinds
57:17
Speaker 1: of reasons why you tend to look at the significant
57:19
Speaker 1: other and the immediate that the people in the immediate
57:23
Speaker 1: sphere around the person first, and then you fan out
57:26
Speaker 1: to to progressively, you know, more distant rings of association
57:30
Speaker 1: with the person, going all the way out to you know,
57:33
Speaker 1: ultimately the public that had no prior contact with the person.
57:37
Speaker 1: But but that's that's less likely. Usually more often than not,
57:40
Speaker 1: it's somebody that knew the person. And I think a
57:43
Speaker 1: lot of people, especially maybe even some fatal DAUS fans
57:46
Speaker 1: look at this and go, oh, I bet I know
57:48
Speaker 1: what happened. I bet the husband found out that she
57:50
Speaker 1: had this double life and he got upset and he
57:53
Speaker 1: you know, did this Well, Okay, yeah, that's a hypothesis.
57:57
Speaker 1: It's good to have that as one hypothesis. But we've
58:00
Speaker 1: seen cases on fatal vows where people were involved in
58:03
Speaker 1: illicit sexual stuff and the spouse knew and was on
58:06
Speaker 1: board with it. So we we really can't be sure
58:09
Speaker 1: that the husband wasn't aware that she was doing this stuff,
58:11
Speaker 1: and maybe the extra income she was earning. Dr Russell,
58:15
Speaker 1: you're dead on again because I don't think she kept
58:17
Speaker 1: it much of a secret. But my question is what
58:22
Speaker 1: is this daughter going through because she may not know
58:25
Speaker 1: about her mom's double life, but you know, some horrible
58:29
Speaker 1: little child at school will and we'll say something to her.
58:33
Speaker 1: I mean, at insult to injury, you lose your mom,
58:37
Speaker 1: she's most likely murdered in a very degrading way, and
58:42
Speaker 1: then it's going to be thrown in your face that
58:45
Speaker 1: she posed online. I mean, Dr Russell, that's a lot
58:50
Speaker 1: for a child to take in. Yeah. Absolutely, and and
58:53
Speaker 1: and you know, I, without without being judgmental, I would
58:57
Speaker 1: I would just have to say for everybody else who
59:00
Speaker 1: trying to take lessons away from what part of the
59:02
Speaker 1: reason they listen is because they're trying to take lessons
59:04
Speaker 1: away from these horrible cases. Which is really the only
59:07
Speaker 1: good a lot of times that can come out of
59:09
Speaker 1: them is it's another reason not to get involved in
59:11
Speaker 1: this stuff because it does come back on your kids.
59:14
Speaker 1: Even if you don't get murdered, uh, you know, if
59:16
Speaker 1: your parents just get divorced, these things come out kids.
59:19
Speaker 1: Like you said, kids at school find out, other other
59:22
Speaker 1: kids parents find out, and they don't want their kids
59:24
Speaker 1: associating with you because they hear the stuff that your
59:27
Speaker 1: parents are involved in. It's just once you've become a parent,
59:30
Speaker 1: your whole your whole decision making process has to change
59:34
Speaker 1: to where everything you do has to be about how
59:37
Speaker 1: is this good for my kids. We also know keep
59:40
Speaker 1: in mind, all of you super slothes out there, that
59:43
Speaker 1: the liquor store footage was just eight hours before the
59:48
Speaker 1: soccer mom is found dead. Alan Duke the tipline. If
59:54
Speaker 1: anyone has information on the death of this beautiful young mom,
1:00:00
Speaker 1: Kathleen down West, please call Allen Nancy. The Calera, Alabama
1:00:08
Speaker 1: Police Department is leading the investigation and their tip line
1:00:12
Speaker 1: is area code two oh five six six eight three
1:00:16
Speaker 1: five zero five two oh five six six eight three
1:00:21
Speaker 1: five zero five. If you want more information, go to
1:00:24
Speaker 1: crime Online dot com for our full feature story, Nancy
1:00:29
Speaker 1: Grace signing off goodbye friend,