Latest / WIPTHENRIP / Episode 6 - Le Liu

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Episode 6 - Le Liu · WIPTHENRIP

• Ryan: My painting is a little it's quite difficult to expit because ⁓ we have sort of censor in China that nudity is very restrict, even in in art way, in ⁓ contemporary art way, yeah, and especially the cure queer. Hi everyone, I'm Sydney. And I'm Ryan. And this is whip then rip. For our sixth guests, we have Chinese born Scottish artist La Lu. And if you want to support Ryan and I or Whip Than Rip, ⁓ give us a like, share, comment, subscribe. And if you're an audio listener, make sure to give us a star rating, give us a review. That really helps the channel grow. And share an episode with a friend. Yes. If you would like to give us a money donation, feel free to sign up for Patreon at patreon.com/slash whip then rip. could give us a one dollar monthly donation at the grower tier or a five dollar donation at the gutsy tier. Or if you don't even want to deal with the hassle of making a Patreon account, you could just give us any money dollar donation without having to do any of that. So we also accept Venmo, Zell, and I don't have a cash app, but I can start one. whatever you have in your wallet, you can send it our way. We put stuff in an envelope. And DM us and we'll give you an address. Yes. So stay tuned and see how our conversation goes. It is not the mainstream to be accepted, like the nudity. Yeah, and also the queer stuff that I did on my painting. Yeah. Yeah. I think the only nudity can be paint is still just women mostly because the old master they paint women as the object on the paintings. Yes. And ⁓ yeah, and in China we learn from Western art and ⁓ yeah, that's being accepted. And we or we still have live drawing class, yeah. No matter oil painting or charcoal drawing. But it'll mostly be female models. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious, do you have you brought any of that work back, like shown in China, the work that you've been making, or do you intend to, or you just kind of think ⁓ better to not? I hope there was One day I can have an exhibition in China. But to be honest, it's little bit hard for me because ⁓ I think two years ago I went back to Wuhan and I met a collector also she runs an art center in Wuhan. Yeah, she mentioned that ⁓ like my painting is a little it's quite difficult to exhibit because ⁓ we have sort of sensor. in China that a nudity is very restrict, even in in art way, in contemporary art way. Yeah. And especially the cure queer. Yeah. Yeah. I I wonder, do you find any similar but maybe different limitations in Scotland or in Berlin? You know, 'cause I I think about how every country has sort of their own version of those repressive outlooks I think about in the States or in Texas. And so Texas creating art as a queer person or ⁓ even nudity to some degree. It's like it can be done, but the reception is another story. And so I'm curious, you know, have you found any similar, I don't know, strange attitudes or sort of pushback or has it felt primarily open? I feel very comfortable here because I think even the artist group here, people really don't care about like what you did and ⁓ what you can't exbit, you can't exbit. Yeah, because in China people are judging and I yeah. Although I don't really I don't want to say like one hundred percent press myths things to China, but yeah the fact is people are judging and Yes. In the c art and cultural, yeah, it's quite taffair. Yeah. And limited. I was just curious if the landscape hasn't influenced your paintings or if you're painting the landscape in Scotland or wherever you're living. Not much actually. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, the the view is beautiful here. Yeah. And ⁓ the temperature is comfortable. For me, compare my hometown Wuhan. Yeah, but my painting is based on classical mythology. Yeah. So it ⁓ I don't have much intent ⁓ intentions on that. Yeah. When you mentioned mythology, again, we'll probably get back into some of this, but I'm curious when you say classical mythology, what particular strain of mythology? Like what are you it's ancient mythology, or are you talking about like Greek and Like Greco Roman mythology or what kind of yeah. Ancient Greek mythology. Yeah. I I really look in into it because I think when I was little and I like to read all kinds of this stuff 'cause it feels far because the character in ⁓ in the story is not real, you know. But they're the storytelling ⁓ is educational to me and ⁓ feel like I always can get something. through the stories through the reading. Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons. And also another reason is all the ancient Greek gods, they're nude. They're naked. Yeah. Yeah, I think ⁓ being naked is like part of my mind, but I I think it's a little bit dirty to me because, you know, I I'm Asian and ⁓ the the Confucianism always ⁓ taught us to be, you know, be a a standard person, be immortal, and ⁓ is being nudity is shame, but you know, I have my own desire. Yeah. I want to see people naked. But it's not a dirty naked. I just like the body. Yeah. Yeah. Well I there's a whole it's funny because you may have seen some of my recent work and I'm thinking a lot about this distinction between nudity and nakedness. And I think this is something that sort of gets talked about in in art spaces a lot. but I I've really been thinking about how I'm interested in painting naked people, not nudes. And so when I think about that the sort of classic, you know, whether that's sculpture or painting, there's this idealized nude. And I wonder, do you think about yourself as engaging with ⁓ like an idealized body, or do you see it more as something that's earthly, you know, and and not the body itself not being mythologized? I think it's not being mythologized because ⁓ I like to add new bodies on it. Yeah. I I the main character on my painting always like ⁓ modern people. Yeah, like ⁓ I like to use Photoshop you know to add it in them the music into the the the paintings and I paint it because I think that's kind of ⁓ excuse for me ⁓ to you know to get in touch with those nudity. Can I ask where do you get your reference images? and pornographic magazines. That's fair. Yeah. Is that is that contemporary or is it vintage? ⁓ con contemporary, yeah. Very funny thing because ⁓ a few years ago I find a website that, you know, based on German and you know they have very they have lots of you know gay things there. Okay. So I find a website they have lots of ⁓ nudity photos. Some are like documentary style, some are, you know, very conceptual and I just collect them secretly. That I feel I have the feeling to those pictures and I collecting them and yeah and then I added them with the the the classical paintings. You were talking about how you'd done figure classes in Wuhan. ⁓ or at least you mentioned that they are there and I'm wondering, do you ever think about engaging with a live model again? Or do you prefer the found image? Hmm. Yeah, I prefer the image because live drawing is quite different ⁓ as what I'm painting right now. Cause I I for example the live drawing, it's like capturing the moment that I saw the model, the light and shadow and also ⁓ the feeling that I felt to the model. But ⁓ the image, like the the characters I add into the image, I have my own idea. I design it. It takes time. It's just not like one day thing. Sometimes I have no idea, I'll just leave there. But maybe a little bit while I have some ideas, I'll just can't, yeah, do it. So it's the fact of having more control of the the composition. Yes, yes, the composition. Yeah, the meaning that I want to express. It's making me think too that with that era, ancient Greece, there was a different relationship to, you know, what we now know as this idea of queerness. ⁓ and I'm curious if that's part of what interests you in that. I mean, and also a lot of that mythology is very sexual. Some of these stories are kind of intense. Yeah. From what I remember. The and and often very sexual and it can be even incestual if I am remembering correctly. Yeah. But I but I think l actual ⁓ culture and if you look at some of this ancient art, again what we think now of as queerness was seemingly more accepted. And I don't know, is that a conscious connection that you're making between that mythology and your use of, you know, these images? I think maybe, yeah. ⁓ 'cause I think is is a good excuse for me because yeah, my Asian cultural background is the taboo for me to see people get naked. Yeah. And ⁓ but here the Asian Greek mythology, they have proper reason. they have standard excuse that people should be naked and they show their body very confidence. Yeah. And also I think is ⁓ is a relationship that people with people, the intimacy that people can get touch with or bonding with each other, but not very sexual or fully, you know, just sex desire. I wonder sort of your gaze because their images that are coming from pornography. There's this intimacy. Again, it's making me think about this idea of nudity and like a space that is intended for people to gather and be nude versus something that is more of an inherently sexual space. And so it sounds like you're kind of talking about both, maybe that it's about intimacy and freedom, but is it also for you loaded with desire as well? Mm, I think so. I do have my own desire that I want to express, but every time when I paint ⁓ I don't want paint pinnace. Well how come? Yeah. I just feel it's not appropriate. Mm. Mm. I feel like there is a boundary. Yeah. Somehow like penis is the symbol of desire, the sexual thing. Like for example in ancient Greek p ⁓ sculpture, you know, they they intend to make the penis smaller so they will look less sexual. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But for me, I think I just want to hide them at all. Cause I feel I don't want somehow I don't want to be limited just only, you know, gay things, but I think it's like more general, like Even straight people, mentor men, they can't just like for example, just naked body they're hugging with each other. It's like a close relationship with them. But do you also feel that way with women bodies or no? I feel like I'm still exploring it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Just to better understand your question, Sydney, you're referring to like the equivalent being a Volva like actually putting it. Right. Or even breasts, 'cause I can see breasts as being sexualized. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I used to always questionise like in summertime or hot days men can, you know, top list outside about white women can't just breasts. Yeah. Or chest. Right. And I it remains this ongoing debate and I do think it has to do with other, right? It has to do with other people's perception and and gaze. ⁓ but it's interesting, I don't want to jump ahead, I do want to get to the G categories, but it's making me realize that Sydney had mentioned ⁓ the headless figures. And then it's making me realize that they're headless and also don't have genitals. And so I'm wondering what your thought is, sort of where that Or I guess Sydney, you were wondering it, so maybe you wanna rephrase Yes, I was wondering because I I guess I was looking at it and I didn't know how I felt about it, not in a bad way, but I was just questioning your intention with the stripping away of the specifics. Cause you know, there's there's character in people's faces. I mean, even we could say there's characters in different body parts too, right? And so I guess the decision of stripping away, what is that for you? Mm. Yeah, I used to ask myself a lot, yeah, like why I don't want paint hat. ⁓ I I have some reasons, yeah. I find out some like ⁓ when I was a student in China, we've been trained like a machine to draw or to paint head, you know, because we're we were doing that for the college entrance entrance exam. Yes, we have yeah, in artwork also and ⁓ the tutorial taught you very specifically like you should do this step one, that, step two, that step three and ⁓ yeah, we've been paying me for like non non stop way. So it gets me tired or exhausted. I don't want to paint ⁓ like a like a machine that's taught me step by step, you know, you yeah, like that. So I I I I don't want paint that. And ⁓ another reason is I think is when the body without head there isn't a specific character on it. It's like how do you say like like the people won't have an a label on it. It also ⁓ a mind free, yeah, it's like spiritual free for me. Yeah, 'cause the bo ⁓ the head control the body. Right. Yeah. So okay, sorry, Ryan. So do you see them as genderless beings or no? Maybe, 'cause I used to ask my friend that, can you see my ⁓ painting? Is that ⁓ male or female to you? 'Cause ⁓ somehow she said it looks like a dude when I paint a female character because I I like to paint You know, the shoulders more wider, even female. That yeah, you know, it ⁓ make makes she think look like he's a dude. I think ⁓ because I like Michelangelo. He's he's you know, his his body is very strong, masculine. Even the woman still masculine. Yeah, and and I think I got some influence by him. Yeah. I often think about how Michelangelo was such a master of anatomy. That there is this exaggeration of the musculature and also queer, right? So I think that there was yeah, it's just interesting to think about sort of how he arrived at his forms because on the one hand they're extremely accurate, but they're almost accurate to the point of being inaccurate ⁓ to me. But what I was gonna ask before is so do you think of the figures as beheaded and castrated? Well, I think head is being removed. ⁓ but the genitals still have the space on it. But I think I just choose to hide it. I think it's still based on my cultural that the shame and the taboo to talk about s sexual things to talk about sex in China is It's not forbidden. It's not n forbidden in law, but people choose to not to talk. 'Cause you know, there is a saying like we have thirteen billion people in country, but we never talk about sex. Nah. I have a question about your family, but if it's too personal, feel free to not you don't have to answer if you don't want to talk about it. But I guess I'm wondering if your family you if they support you and your practice of pain these paintings and you making them. I never talk about my practice to my parents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I never I never came out from them. Hmm. Yeah. ⁓ but I just told them I I am a painter. Yeah. I paint bodies. Yeah. I didn't say I paint music. I say I paint bodies and ⁓ It's not public accepted in China, so I have to do here. That's my general excuse because I I don't think they can understand, yeah, what like what I want to express, the queer, the intimacy or the expulse and the height that I want to express through the painting. This is maybe another tough question, but I'm thinking about do you think of the beheading or the removal of the head? Does that have to do perhaps with thought? Meaning maybe I'm making an intellectual leap here, but I'm thinking about how you're talking about different systems of thought, right? Whether that's about what's considered taboo or different system systems of opinion and repression. and is there perhaps something in that removal that, like you said, the mind operates the body, is there a a desire to sort of remove the thoughts of the figure? I think shame is the key part of that. Because when I was a little, even the society and my parents they're you know they just told me that not to see unbehaving things. ⁓ so after that I developed a habit that I I'm ashamed to see people when I talk in them on I I'm shamed to see the people's face. Yeah. And ⁓ more things. So I after that I decide to remove the whole hat. It's much a relief for me actually. Yeah, that's really interesting because it makes me think about the eyes, right? Because ⁓ at least for me, you know, that's the depending on the context, the where I'll feel this powerful sometimes a struggle, right? Depending on who you're talking to, to ⁓ look them in the eyes and to have what can be a really intimate exchange that's unspoken. And so particularly when it is, you know, a person who makes one feel shame. It's connect with the power. Yeah. For example like a father and a son relationship that I'm afraid to see like I'm I'm not afraid to see my dad's face or head, but I choose not to see. Yeah, and ⁓ yeah, I feel like it's a power situation. Yeah. Like you feel more safe not acknowledging it, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I for yeah, I feel like I choose to find a gray area that I can breathe. It's interesting, Sydney, though, that you call it safety because it reads as safety to me. But if you'll forgive the word, it also feels like a form of dominance. It feels like you're you're taking your own power back through the act of painting these figures without heads, where all of that sort of shame comes from and judgment, ⁓ perhaps. That also remind me ⁓ the different situation ⁓ I mean in the Western world and ⁓ Asian world, ⁓ I mean just China. Like people are not encouraged, you know, to be stand out. People are encouraged to be normal. Yep. And it's that idea of normal is the thing that is so dangerous, right? Because it's not actually real. There's no such thing. ⁓ yeah. And yeah. So gripes. What's frustrating, broken, or irritating in art and culture right now? I mean, you kinda spoke about your culture a little bit, but if you have anything else you want to add to that. Yeah. ⁓ you know, recently I've been thinking about a theory that all being told today is ⁓ intentional behaving and the control by the capitalists. You know, for example, like the art market, there are lots of, you know, the ⁓ modern masters they have their painting be bought by a lot of rich people and the rich people they set their own galleries and people are going to their galleries, ⁓ from art foundation, they see those artworks, they f would we presumably think, wow, that's a great artworks and then how this kind of system neutrate our, you know, the ⁓ the sense about beauty, the sense about art har how how to be, but what about the the artworks not be seen or not being purchased is then is that a good thing? You're talking about perhaps a top down understanding of beauty and value and Yeah, am I understanding that right? That you're kind of talking about the fiction behind how we come to understand what's beautiful and valuable? Like the w artworks we can see in a museum or in a you know art gallery. I mean like a well known art gallery, like Peggy Guggenheim, like MoMA, the people ⁓ even although the people ⁓ buy artworks and even they donate our artworks to their is that means we've been We we have no choice that we to see those artworks and ⁓ so they give us the the beauty they think and and we accept that. Yeah, ⁓ have you heard this term psyop? maybe. Okay. It it basic it basically means psychological operation and Trevor Paglin, who Is a great artist who thinks about a lot of like surveillance and things like that. He just wrote a book. I haven't read it yet, but my understanding of the thesis is something along the line that we're living in a world of so many versions of what you're describing, which is people kind of convincing us, and y we can call that the elite or, you know, maybe the uber wealthy, or it sounds like you're even just talking about collectors and that they are in a way doing a form of psychological operation on us to persuade or influence the way that we look and the way that we love ⁓ art objects. Right. Yeah, yeah. That's yeah, that's exactly what I wanted to say or so. Yeah. I think about this often just in the form of governments, right? And media, you know. So if you think about, you know, the way that the news functions, for example, and what gets highlighted and what doesn't. I mean, art has some, you know, examples that are maybe sometimes overstated, but you know, Jackson Pollock and the abstract expressionists, I think, is the sort of go-to example of how the CIA promoted MoMA, promoted and put money into. these artists sort of indirectly as a way to fight communism, right? As a way to fight ⁓ the Soviet Union specifically. And yeah, when you say that you wonder if it's purposeful, number one, what does that maybe look like in your mind? ⁓ if it does, if you have a shape, but then also do you have thoughts about how to fight back against that? I think yeah, just Read it a lot and see a lot, see all different things and try to not hold the standard of judging. If I saw the Kunin, you know, in the MoMA and wow that's a great and the others not like the Koonin's not great. Yeah. I think maybe just not to set up ⁓ single judgment yet, yeah. Right. So in other words actually examine what you as an individual are feeling? Yeah, I feel like we used to we used to get influence from, you know, the TV, the newspaper. Nowadays we get influenced by the new medium, TikTok, and ⁓ very famous influencer. What they post, like is very you know, influence lots of people and they they maybe shape some people's mind, but I think we can still hope Yeah, hold our own mind. Yep. I'm curious on that note, are there any people who you feel like are psyoped or overhyped that you think are ⁓ yeah. I have to say that ⁓ I have to say that Damien Hurst's painting is really suck. That's funny. I think he's yeah, I think he's great, very good. sculpture and the other conceptual in his early years. W even, you know, after he graduated, what he did. That's fantastic. But he's not painter any ⁓ one day we're gonna have to get Damian Hurst on here. ⁓ my God. Get his response. so yeah, he's he is an artist who he's there whether you like it or not. And he's selling work Whether you like it or not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because Damian Hurst ⁓ does feel like, you know, sort of unique because there are these other artists who I think as similar. Like Cause is one of those. But Cause, I'm like, I can make an argument for what he does. And Jeff Coons, Sydney and I have talked about a lot of people hate Jeff Coons. I actually ⁓ really? ⁓ my disagreement. That's funny. I I I I think he's sort of brilliant, but we don't have to get into that. ⁓ I I think that he he is doing he is also getting away with something, you know, but at least it stays fresh. But anyways, I like his ⁓ sorry, should I say that? No, I I'm laughing because of this face Sidney made when I said he stays fresh. Okay. But well, I want to say one one thing that I like about Jeff Kins is his blue ball. Yeah. Yeah, the gazing ball, I think he's quite interesting. That's a good examp that's recent work or relatively recent work. You know, and I think when when I first saw those I thought they were sort of ugly actually. And then over time I grew to grew to like them. But Sydney, talk about that face you made. No, I mean I'm gonna be honest. I think I just have this idea of Jeff Coons and I'm like, I hate you for some reason, but I'm really not familiar with like his full spectrum of work. I it's just what I what my brain knows, you know. Well he's he's far too wealthy. You know, it's hard not to hate on a really like Uber wealthy artists, but I I think, you know, actually, what's the the Heaven series? I'm blanking on the full name, the series of pornographic images essentially. And that's an example of his work that like so different than the balloon dogs, right? it's very ⁓ I mean, to be honest with you, the word that's coming to mind is grimy. ⁓ and that's what you want to I think he's clever that he chooses to make those kind of artworks and ⁓ it corresponds the current situation of America and also the art world. Yeah, and they 'cause you know there is a there's a saying in China and in the right time even the peak can be blown up on the air. For example, if you are a businessman and you you you you picked up a perfect business project and also in the right time and ⁓ in those in those all kinds of situations you can be a billionaire or something. Mm-hmm. Even you are a farm boy from country. Right, right time, right place. It's not just the grimy work that makes me like him. I I l actually really love like he's got this giant and I know as I'm saying this that like you're not supposed to love this work. It's not great to love this work. But he has this giant pile of play-doh and it looks like real play-doh and I I I actually like that work. But the reason I brought up the sort of grimy work is because I think there's an idea of him as this very sort of saccharine kind of sugary sweet artist and I I don't think he gets enough credit for being in on the joke. Whereas Damian Hurst, I don't I I still with his paintings, I don't know if he's in on the joke. You know? Yeah. Yeah. The next category is good stuff. So what feels exciting, alive, or worth paying attention to right now? To be honest. selling make me very excited. You're selling your paintings. Yeah, I'm very practical. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ I feel like yeah, when when my paintings sold, it gave me very big encouraged to paint. Because one thing I can use the money to buy paints, to buy cameras, you know, the materials. And another thing it just like ⁓ I feel it's ⁓ it's ⁓ admit that ⁓ you know the buyer ⁓ they like my artworks and I being admitted by them. Yeah, and ⁓ i it encouraged me to paint more things and actually sometimes it encouraged me to paint a similar thing because every painting is different to me. So when the painting being sold and ⁓ you know it just that kind of one is gone. So I hope I can still have that one. You know, just like I I built my own collection doll. If if I ⁓ if a doll if I lost a door and I I want an another one, you know, just collect it. Yeah. Right. It it's such a great answer to that question because I think in some ways it can be taboo to talk about actually wanting to make money. as an artist. And so I appreciate you kind of bringing that to the foreground. It is making me think to ask you about the show in Berlin a little bit and sort of will you be there for the opening? Yes. Yes. I would be there during yeah, four days from sixth to ninth of August. Yeah. And and do you have expectations around sales with that or what happens happens kind of thing? I do actually hourly set one. ⁓ you did actually. ⁓ that's fantastic. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. So I'm very powered recently. Yes, that's so awesome. And I really think that your and Adam's work complement each other very nicely with just the way y'all paint. The they're both it's like f both filled with freedom, brush strokes, mark making. So I think that it'll be a great show. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And warped bodies. ⁓ yeah, that too. I I'm maybe I'm jumping categories here, but I am curious, ⁓ I keep thinking about Cecily Brown. ⁓ and I'm curious if you know and like her work. Yeah, I love her. I love her s since I back to paint. Yeah. ⁓ I bought her books. I bought lots of her books. I read lots of ⁓ magazines, journals about her. I studied her painting. I even researched her background, like what kind of family she from. ⁓ cool. Yeah. Yeah, I love her painting, yeah, crazy because She's the person make me realize, ⁓ I actually I can't paint that or so. I can't paint in that way or so. Yeah, yeah. But after long years study on her, I I think I I still want to paint my own way. And ⁓ I think I gradually find the difference ⁓ of us. Yeah. ⁓ for sure. And and that's not to say that it looks Just like Cecily Brown by any means, but just that, you know, it it made me think of what I love about her work. And so, anyways, I'm I'm happy to hear it because I also really love her work and I can see, you know, I think the way that she thinks about depending on the painting, but the way that bodies can kind of like fold into one another and and there's this abstract and yeah, realistic ⁓ space that she's just so good at playing between. you know, and keeping fluid and it feels similar to some of what's strong about your work is like these ways in which you don't always know where a body ends and begins. Yeah. Yeah. Mm 'cause ⁓ I watch her video that ⁓ the show currently happening in suburban London. I went that exhibition also ⁓ is gorgeous. Yeah, and she talk about that ⁓ her painting. You can't see the body all the time, but sometimes it's it's fading, sometimes it's obvious, and some d sometimes it's over layer with each other. That's really fascinating. Yeah. I'm having a strange thought about or maybe not strange, but you know, you were talking about English being your second language and I'm thinking about how sometimes a body or a face can function in a painting like language does. ⁓ you know, even that idea of a likeness can tell you exactly what you're supposed to think. And in a, you know, if you have the word, I don't know, shit on a painting, it really is gonna tell you you know, what kind of painting it is, what you're supposed to feel about it. And maybe what my question is, is whether or not any of that sort of resonates for you in the way that you think about the beheadedness. ⁓ but the stripping away some of that kind of language so that maybe it can get into a more emotional space. ⁓ perhaps you've already said this, but I'm just thinking about it again and thinking about how I'm both curious if that's part of what Cecily Brown. does for you or kind of you you gained ⁓ but also just other thoughts about that idea I think English make me more gay or gayer. Interesting. Why did you say that? Yeah yeah talk about that more you know in China there is a common thing like ⁓ the gay people they're always good at English. Yeah, I think the influence to us, like the way we talk about we speak English, it just make us more outgoing. Yeah, and it shapes a a kind of character. I don't know, some some people could be bitchy, some people could be more, you know. Mm. And ⁓ yeah, and ⁓ it music, music, especially the music, the English music, is very ⁓ influential to us, you know, like ⁓ we we love Lady Gaga, we love Beyonce, Brittany Spears, you know those all kinds of gay icons. Yeah. Music shape yeah, kind of shape our character or so. Yeah, that's sort of a common interesting. And so I'm wondering when it comes to the painting, and this is also maybe a heavy handed question, are they speaking English? The paintings? I think no. I think they don't speak English because the painting ⁓ the meaning I want to express is from my roots and I've been living yeah, I born in China, I raised in China, I educated in China. ⁓ those, you know, the East Asian culture is in my blood. And ⁓ all my thinking method, even now I'm talking with you, I have to translate it from Chinese to English. Yeah, so that's kinda that's like a second language and a second performance. It's like proceed performance. But the original, the root is still ⁓ Chinese culture to me. And especially it shows on the title because most of the painting that I want to express is ⁓ combined with Chinese cultural the rulism or the Taoism or some Buddhalism in it. Uh-huh. Yeah, and then I'll just use Yeah, I'm sorry. And then I'll just use translate or do translate or maybe combine my own ⁓ idea. Yeah, it's and really when I asked that question I was thinking about what you're talking about gay folks in China having It sounds like maybe outlet or connection to ⁓ these American pop stars who are gay icons, and there being a sort of an opening up that perhaps happens through that, but also a signifier, like a way to maybe recognize one another. And so, you know, I'm sort of being tongue-in-cheek with the idea that it would speak language at all, right? Because in reality, paint does something different altogether. But I think what you're getting to with your roots feels so so important because I of course it's outside of place on the one hand but you are in Scotland and you are in a place where you can share things perhaps the perhaps about that route ⁓ your history with people who can hear it in a different way ⁓ and this is maybe a long way of asking you about audience too and thinking about You have thoughts about your audience? Do you have thoughts about, you know, who's receiving the work? Whether that's okay, there's a show in Berlin, who are those people? ⁓ that perhaps there's a show in Scotland, there are those people. And then, you know, you mentioned before it being hard to show in China. and just, yeah, d how much do you actually think about that reception? It sounds like you've been kind of forced to Think about it a lot in the past. ⁓ I feel like the painting in here or the painting I did here is like the clothes that I choose to wear, but my body's still my body. Right. And the the audience. ⁓ I never think about the audience, what kind of audience I may reach. I just think the people like the painting may become temporary. Yeah. My my style is contemporary, yeah. And abstract expression. I just think the pain the people they like this kind of style, they will like it. Or some people like classical things, they will like it also because it's connected. In China, if if I have to expate in China, ⁓ I think I won't choose to, you know, to to to wear traditional Chinese clothes. I still choose to wear what I want to wear. And I feel like that's who I am. Because I already I already wear so many years traditional Chinese clothes already. So yeah, I think I it's it's kinda like true choose to be who I am here. Yeah. So if somebody buys your painting and I I guess you do you not mind if they don't they aren't intrigued about all of the other topics that are embedded in your paintings, like you just sort of like, ⁓ a painting sale is a painting sale? If it is a professional collector, that would be much better for me because it can help it can grow my ⁓ my career, you know. But if just like a a normal collector, they were just decorating my home and they have their own ideas and to read about it, I I don't really care about it because everyone has their own ideas and what I can do is I finish the painting, I try to express my ideas through the titles, through the image. And and it's not really my thing if they accept it or not. Right. I mean the information through the painting. Right. And even if you want it to be it never truly is, right? Yeah. Okay, so the next G is ghosts, influences, histories, and lingering presences shaping your work. We did talk about Cicely Brown, but if you have another artist that you're really into. ⁓ a lot. A lot of artists. Yeah, you know, from from the medieval to the contemporary, but that's too long. Yeah, too massive. I probably just gonna say some artists, like I really love Rubens. Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ I like Brock. paintings because the style, the composition, the movement, and also the figures is very masculine, strong. Yeah. And ⁓ about ⁓ about that I also influenced by the impressionist artist because when I was student in China, the moment I start to paint in colors, you know, the tutor introduces us in Monet or Monet, the goddess Saison, Matisse, you know, Van Galdes. Yeah, so I got lots of influence because even now ⁓ the color palette I used get lots of yeah influence from them. Yeah. And ⁓ after I came here, I I started to learn from the Kunin. I love his brush strokes and I love the movement he made on the painting and the thickness. ⁓ although I also like the thing like Cecily Braun. But yeah, ⁓ I just like to combine everything together. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny because Adam mentioned de Kooning also, which w is kind of funny. Well and I I was just gonna say that I I'm was asking him if he knows Elaine De Kooning's work. ⁓ Yeah, yeah. 'Cause I I I think I might think she's the superior to Kooning, but I'm curious, I don't know. You can tell me who you think's better. well, I think I just gonna say I like the Kooning first because I saw his painting first. Yeah. I get to know his first, but I love his wife's painting also. Yeah. And ⁓ To be honest, I don't have much chance to see Alina De Cunning's painting physically. ⁓ yeah, and ⁓ I saw the Koenin's in la ⁓ last ⁓ Venice Biennale in Venice. That's amazing. That that shock my mind. Yeah, because there are some exhibitions that shock my mind ⁓ entirely. For example, ⁓ the the Oscar Kokoshoka I saw in Paris. And ⁓ also Joanne Michel. Uh-huh. Yeah, in Paris also. Yeah, she has a duo exhibition with Cezanne that in LV Foundation in Paris. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also last year I went to the LV Foundation again to to see David Hockney. That's I think that's the best exhibition I saw ever. I admire him very, very much. And Not only the amount that he made the paintings and also the quality that he made painting. He ⁓ he just made me feel like he's the painter of the painter, that he really loved paint. He devoted his whole life into the paint. And no matter how the world changed and what happened during on him, he just never stopped. And ⁓ yeah, he's the true, true painter. I just saw an article in Hyperallergic saying you don't have to like his iPad paintings and I'm curious how you feel about his iPad work. Mm I don't like either. ⁓ really? I saw his iPad his moon show in New York and I was like I was impressed. I was like you can see the layers in the iPad paintings. Yeah, I saw his iPad painting at Roy Academy in London or so, but it just did not really touch me. Hmm, that's fair. But I still admire his colour matching. It sounds like, yeah, the maybe it gets back to that point about not quite the same thing, but the difference between ⁓ maybe printmaking techniques versus the canvas and brush. Cause when you talk about Joan Mitchell or even Cezanne, or we're talking about Hockney's painted work, the through line there is it's very painted. ⁓ I guess Hockney Hockney's maybe a little more graphic, ⁓ meaning you know, harder edges. I don't know if there's a question there, just that it it doesn't completely surprise me because it feels like what Hockney was trying to do is create a painterly mark with the iPad. And I I've never actually known what I think about them because it feels so hard to access them as art in the way that we do a painting for me. ⁓ I admire him to do on iPad and never stop because and even when he's old he's never stopped to you know, getting the new technology, you know how hard it was. You know, f how hard for my parents or my grandparents to use the phone. Yeah, but he yeah, he can do that. And ⁓ I used to paint on my iPad also. ⁓ yeah, I just You just not really into me. Yeah. I still like the physical. I I like holding a brush. Yeah, just paint on the canvas, you know. Right. That that desire is fully ⁓ it fulf fulfilled my mind. I had a question about you you're an Adam's show. Looking at Adam's work, ⁓ what I got from it is he in his work there is this tie or ⁓ revealing of masculinity and I I guess I had a question about your paintings. If you feel there's you're reaching for this masculine energy or is it more feminine or how do you see your paintings in that context? I don't want to settle on it it because ⁓ I want to start f from myself because I used to being ⁓ mocked as to famine when I was little. ⁓ yeah, I I feel s I feel sad and about it, of course. But the the people, the figure I paint, I don't want to give it too famine or too masculine because I feel like either way you are just being judging me about either you've been too femme or you've been too masculine, too timid. Yeah. It just feels like if to over, it just there people that are always excused to judge me. But in in in a fact that i e no matter what kinds of people are always judging. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So after that I just don't care about animals. I don't give a damn. Okay. But that's fair. But it all it also sounds like it might connect to this point about the way that bodies move in and out. Because to me, you know, the the truth is all of that stuff is far more fluid than people like to acknowledge, ⁓ often. ⁓ and so it feels like whether or not it's the intention, it feels like perhaps that's part of what's being communicated through the brushwork and the way that things move from one area into another, even when you can see an identifiable figure, it is kind of. It's a part of the landscape. Yeah. I had two questions. One, I don't even know if there's a great answer to it, but I'm kind of curious why the Hockney show in particular was one of the best things you ever saw. And I know part of that is just like 'cause it's Hockney. ⁓ but is there anything in particular that you remember feeling different? You know, I know that show for a long time before I went. So I I'm I was thinking, should I go? Should I don't go? Because, you know. And every artist is poor, they're they're struggling about, you know, the flight ticket and accommodation and all about these things. So I I I I'm I was holding myself and, you know, like for example, if you really want to go something, do something that you always have and you're always holding on it. It it making me it it ups your limitations about it. So after that I finally I finally decide to go. Yeah, and I I did, I went and it really surprised me because he's it it exited his work ⁓ from his early age. Like ⁓ there are paintings he studied at ⁓ Royal College of Art and ⁓ there are paintings that he moved to ⁓ America and ⁓ you know there are paintings that during you know, those kind of ages, lots of his friend died by AIDS and he's their pain and yeah. So it's a long it's a long timeline of his painting and even ⁓ at the end of the last show and they still have his new painting eight ninety twenty five. It just makes me feel like yeah, he's he's he never stopped doing things 'cause I feel like he he like a pastor for me. He's holding his belief that in his life he's doing he the things that he believed that really touched me because I think in my painting or my own life belief is very important to me also that I I want to do the things because I believe it is good, I think. Hmm. I love that. Yeah. You're you're talking about an almost spiritual relationship to art making. And I think I think it's fair to say Sydney and I both have a similar, I don't know, connection to the process that it is just something that one has to believe in. I'm curious for you about the contours of that. and maybe we can do this quickly before the next category, but I'm just curious about 'Cause this is something I still think about a lot about, you know, where ideas come from. Is it, you know, is it outside of the self? Is it deep within the self and psychological? And so I'm wondering, you know, how you identify that for yourself. I think lots of my ideas from the book that I read, I like to read all kinds of ser ⁓ series books because I like to get no different ideas. Yeah, although it's hard for me to read, but I always can find some sentence that in my mind and also the ideas that may be combined with my ⁓ own life experiences. I can't say exact, but ⁓ I can say like the painting recent I finished is called ⁓ servant and ⁓ fellow. And the idea came up ⁓ at midnight after I shower. Yeah, it's always happened after that. Yeah. in in the beginning, I think ⁓ I asked myself why servant and the fellow, why there is no master. ⁓ because I feel like it's it's a po position trans transitioning to me because the servant could be, you know, there are two people in the painting and the servant could be a master and the fellow could be a master. they are they are walking to some way they're up towards to some way and they're walking with each other and some maybe in the front, someone behind. But the important thing is they're walking in the same way towards to the same direction. Yeah. And so there's a sense of equality in that. The next category is guts, which is process, risk, and what it actually takes to make the work. Well, I think I I think the ⁓ the process is being steady for me now because ⁓ I want to use I want to stay steady because I used to change method all the time. Like I used to don't care about ground. If they're just white, I will just use white. If there's something other, I just use something other. But gradually I I start to research on it. I want I start to try a different color ground to make different, you know, is there any influence on the painting eventually? Yeah. So like I tried ⁓ I tried blue, I tried yellow, and ⁓ even I decide to not use any ground colors. For example, there was time I like to use wood just ⁓ wood glue. Just, you know, apply on the canvas and then I paint directly. But now I back to the white ground again because I feel like the white ground can reflect the color the best. ⁓ yeah, this is kind of very practical way for me. And ⁓ yeah I I use Photoshop to edit him my images. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, I use pictures. ⁓ and like lots of artists like ⁓ yeah, like Cecily Brown, like ⁓ Richter, yeah, they all use images. 'Cause I used to I used to think is that bad to use images? Is that means we just copy directly from it? But after I realized and I saw lots of artists they use images and I think for me the key important is not follow the images. Yeah, and then I have to create something by my own. Like I try to combine my own memory and ⁓ my yeah, experiences. Yeah, sometimes I like to change intentionally and but it's not going well, then I'll just throw it away. That's what I was actually gonna ask because I do Photoshop too before I start a painting. And so you're you're saying that you don't stick to the Photoshop edit. You're kind of like intuitive and I think the Photoshop I use mostly I just add figures into the classic painting that I want to paint. I just find a proper position for them. Like like if I make a story, I want to add new characters. I just want those characters more fit into the story that make people can believe or make I can believe it. Hm. And is it always a classical painting that you're referencing? I tried photo before, just like the photo that I took when I go to London or when I go to Paris. Yeah, but I still love the classical paintings. Yeah, b ⁓ and mostly I'll choose I'll choose I choose my feeling because I choose them if I want to repaint them or reshow them. I think that what I do is re-image and ⁓ shape a new story. Okay, so our last category is growth. I think every artist wants hope their career, you know, can be something big like ⁓ like a rehictor, like ⁓ Hogney. Yeah, that's like our it feels like it is our internal dream. ⁓ for me I want to e I want I hope I can. Even like I hope I can some some someday that people can read my painting from you know the textile book or something like that. Yeah but ⁓ be realistic. I just hope I can paint all the time and ⁓ I hope my painting can support me to paint. I hope my painting can earn money for me. I don't want to say like I want to pim pimple my painting, you know like sell them to the people so I can get money from them. But yeah I just want I I I just want my painting can support me to paint and to that of death of my life. It's all about you wanna be big like Richter or Hockney, but not like Damien Hurst. I don't know how to say. Yeah, maybe maybe if I did some sculpture or some installation artworks, then I'll be judged like that's so funny. Maybe that's the dream we're realizing is to to get wealthy and famous enough to make really yeah, to make garbage. But sorry, Sydney, you were gonna say something. Well, I was gonna say, well, I hope your manifestations come true. And yeah, I think your paintings are really amazing. So Thank you. Yeah. And I'm wondering if there's anything just in general, ⁓ sort of last thoughts or things that you wanna share. with us or with the audience? Well, if you like artworks, then support the artists if you can't afford any artworks. Yeah. Support your local artist and buy from them directly if you can. And if you're artists, just just paint and then never give up, never be afraid of making mistakes. Right on. Well said, yes. Yeah, that's good advice. It's it it seems like it should be easy to remember those things. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow we always forget. Okay. Well, thank you so so much for taking the time. ⁓ you are you're our second international guest, which is a very exciting. Wow. So Adam was the first. Yes. And thank thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm really glad that I can share my ideas. Yeah. So thank you again. Yes, thank you. So nice meeting you. Thank you. Yeah, me too. And ⁓ good night from Scarlet. ⁓ yeah. Good night from Texas. Yes. Bye. Okay. All right. Bye.