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Exploring the Psychedelic Realm: A Deep Dive into Therapeutic Applications with Lesley Kellogg · Finding New Waters

0:00
So psychedelic assisted Psychotherapy would be having a
0:04
substance in during a therapy session, so it could be MDMA, it
0:09
could be psilocybin, but having that substance during the
0:13
session and then seeing what unfolds during it includes a lot
0:17
of specialized training because everything is intensified.
0:20
So if you have a trauma, Focus session, your unearthing a lot
0:26
of very intense memories that you could be having.
0:30
A flashback sitting there with a client during those things you
0:33
had a substance that psychoactive on top of it.
0:36
It's going to intensify the situation so knowing how to
0:39
respond when those moments come up.
1:07
Good afternoon. My name is Graham Durkee.
1:09
And I'm the founder and CEO of new orders recovery.
1:11
In Raleigh North Carolina, Welcome to our weekly podcast.
1:14
Finding new Waters. Our goal in creating finding new
1:17
Waters, is to provide a resource for families to help navigate
1:20
the complexities of supporting a loved one.
1:22
Struggling with substance use or mental health, we find ourselves
1:26
in crisis. Due to one of these issues, most
1:28
people have no idea where to turn, we hope to shed.
1:30
Some light on what is often The Darkest Hour for many families.
1:34
I'm joined today by our medical director dr.
1:36
Harrell Hong and Leslie Kellogg. Who is the founder of prism
1:40
Wellness in Cary, North Carolina Leslie open prison Wellness in
1:44
2020 with the goal of creating a group practice that provides a
1:47
space for people to better understand the strengths.
1:49
They already embody that can help support them in.
1:52
The more challenging parts of life Leslie is also an advocate
1:55
for the continued. Research into psychedelic
1:57
assisted Psychotherapy and has completed the mdma-assisted
2:01
Psychotherapy training conducted by by the multiplet
2:04
multidisciplinary Association of psychedelic studies.
2:08
Leslie is excited at the possibility of incorporating
2:11
mdma-assisted Psychotherapy into a practice upon hopeful FDA
2:15
approval. Leslie.
2:17
Thank you for joining us today. Thank you.
2:19
Thank you for having me, of course, of course, and we're
2:22
super excited because obviously, this is a kind of a hot button
2:26
topic right now, right? And you're hearing a lot about
2:29
this, you know, just kind of everywhere in the world right
2:32
now. Obviously Maps is kind of
2:33
leading the charge with, you know all the a lot of the
2:36
research so to say. But you know I would love to
2:41
kind of get a little bit of an explanation from you on exactly
2:44
what is psychedelic psychedelic. Assisted Therapy, sure.
2:47
Yeah, and so grateful for maps, I'm not affiliated with maps,
2:52
but so grateful for them and work table and all the work that
2:54
they've done so psychedelic assisted Psychotherapy would be
2:58
having a substance in during a therapy session, so it could be
3:03
MDMA, it could be psilocybin, but having that substance during
3:08
the session and then seeing what unfolds during it includes a lot
3:12
of specialized training because everything is intensified So, if
3:17
you have a trauma, Focus session, your unearthing a lot
3:21
of very intense memories that you could be having flashbacks
3:26
sitting there with a client during those things.
3:28
You had a substance that psychoactive on top of it.
3:31
It's going to intensify the situation so knowing how to
3:35
respond when those moments come up.
3:38
Yeah and I know just, you know obviously I've had you know,
3:42
psychedelic experiences in my life.
3:44
So just understanding the The kind of one of the one of the
3:48
core pieces is the set and setting its right.
3:52
And and obviously just being prepared in the right way and
3:56
having the right intentions going into practice like this or
4:00
so important. But can you talk about a little
4:02
bit about like the preparation? Sure that goes into all this
4:05
sure. So set and setting is so
4:08
important when it comes to psychedelic use period, let
4:11
alone if it's psychedelic, assisted therapy.
4:13
But when we think of set, we think of your mindset.
4:16
What? You coming into this experience
4:18
with what is your expectation? What is going to happen?
4:22
If your expectation is at met, how do you plan on handling
4:25
that? So set can be worked on prior to
4:29
and should be worked on prior to the experience that could be
4:32
done by yourself through journaling.
4:34
But it would be lovely to be doing it with a professional or
4:37
somebody that just has experience with psychedelics, as
4:40
well. Like you said, what do you have
4:42
an experience with psychedelics? It makes you shift your Our
4:46
expectations a little bit and learn some of that flexibility.
4:50
So sitting down with somebody who has had experiences is
4:54
really valuable. Yeah, because that's going to
4:56
affect the way that you experience.
4:58
What happens. A lot of people go into an
5:01
experience and they think they know what they're going to work
5:03
on. They've worked on their
5:04
intentions and then something else comes up and knowing what
5:09
to do in those situations is really important knowing what
5:11
support you have in those situations is really important,
5:15
then we have set Which is your physical space.
5:18
So are you in a space? That's comfortable or you want
5:20
to space? That's clean.
5:22
If you have to go to the restroom, how far is it?
5:25
Do you have to go down a scary hallway?
5:29
Is there music playing? Yeah, what type of music?
5:32
Yep. Do you have comfortable pillows,
5:35
somewhere to lay down? Or are you supposed to be
5:38
sitting up? Are you outside all these
5:40
things? Could be great, outside, could
5:42
be great or it could be really challenging, depending on what
5:45
else is going on, right? So making sure you're able to
5:48
work through that ahead of time and you know, things happen and
5:52
being able to be flexible. But a lot of what people refer
5:55
to, as bad trips can be avoided through working through set and
5:59
setting ahead of time and having somebody trusted that you can
6:02
utilize. So as your gayness is I just
6:05
realized I've had so many wonderful catch up times with
6:10
you over the last year of getting to know you in the
6:13
therapy Community. But I've actually never heard.
6:16
Story about what got you interested in psychedelics.
6:20
Yeah, and I mean, have you, I just really interesting here.
6:23
Sure. Yeah, let me think about that
6:25
every rewind, the tapes. I think, when it comes to
6:30
psychedelics my first experience in the therapeutic world was, I
6:34
got an invitation in the mail when I was provisionally
6:36
licensed for a ketamine Treatment Center that was
6:39
opening up and this was probably seven years ago or so, and I
6:46
went and Was so excited and I remember leaving because I
6:50
stayed to the end and leave in the middle of it, but it was all
6:52
catered toward providers, my providers and there was no talk
6:57
about therapy. And so I left feeling really
7:00
dissatisfied with that and then I looked a little bit deeper on
7:03
my own time and stumbled upon maps and had some friends that
7:08
did more of like the festival thing.
7:10
It wasn't my wasn't my jam, but I would have loved to have gone
7:14
to a festival just to provide care.
7:16
Yes, I knew that people would be using substances and being a
7:20
therapist. That's I love the, I love to be
7:22
there for people who just need a need somebody that they can
7:26
relate rely on for a little bit. Yeah, so did my own work found
7:31
through Maps. I found a few different
7:33
organizations that I could learn from and then I kind of the
7:38
world just opened up and I started my own psychedelic work
7:42
and it helped me grow tremendously as a practitioner,
7:45
it help me. My friendships, my marriage, my
7:48
relationships with family members and I remember thinking
7:53
about clients throughout my experiences, how it could be
7:57
really helpful for people who just got stuck right in our
8:01
brain, has a lot of powerful ways to protect us.
8:04
And when we go through traumas, our brain protects us in a way
8:08
to try to help us, not go back to that trauma, but what happens
8:12
is the trauma comes back the channel comes back, it affects
8:15
our relationships. So I learned in my work, how for
8:19
some reason, when I was on when I was experiencing those
8:22
psychedelics, I was able to look at things very differently than
8:26
I was when I wasn't in that non-ordinary state.
8:29
So that propelled me and their Maps being able to go through
8:34
that training, which was 100 hours and extremely intense
8:39
everybody that I've ever talked to that's done.
8:41
It agrees, that it's the most intense thing that you could do
8:44
as a therapist because, yeah, It's, you know, you spend hours
8:49
just talking about transference and countertransference, you
8:51
spent hours talking about ruptures and the therapeutic
8:54
setting and how to repair those touch, how that can be used.
8:58
There are beautifully so many things that could be helpful in
9:01
a therapeutic setting. But then when you intensify it,
9:04
you realize how much power it has.
9:06
Yeah. So after pursuing that training,
9:09
I just it it lit a fire under me to keep learning because it's,
9:15
it's a whole new. Environment that is being
9:17
created. It's a whole new protocol that's
9:19
being created. A whole new ethics board, that's
9:21
being created. So there's no shortage of
9:25
resources for me to dive into. Mhm.
9:28
Yeah, so it was, it was super interesting.
9:32
It's out there but it's not used in maybe its fullest extent and
9:38
there's it's a exciting red hot area of science.
9:41
Yeah, definitely many people joining the podcast probably do
9:46
Don't know about Maps or very skeptical, you know, as they're
9:50
entering into this conversation. So can you tell us a little bit
9:52
about maps and then what they're doing?
9:54
Yeah, so Maps is founded in 1986 by Rick doblin.
9:58
And his goal was to figure out how to bring the government in
10:03
because we know that these well, I say, we they, I wasn't born.
10:08
They knew that these substances weren't bad.
10:11
These substances did have therapeutic value.
10:13
These substances were not like the Began to meet us, believe
10:17
that is going to melt your brain and it's going to make everybody
10:20
jump off of the roof, right, Reefer Madness.
10:25
Right. Yeah, exactly.
10:26
Exactly. Yeah, there was so much that was
10:29
just circulated to make people afraid of LSD or MDMA cannabis
10:36
psilocybin all of them. And so he founded it to try to
10:39
bring awareness and be look at the therapeutic value that had
10:43
already been proven through. The underground work and work
10:48
that had been done before it was rescheduled.
10:51
So 1986 fast forward. Now Maps has done schedule is
10:57
not rescheduled. There's no rescheduling but Maps
11:00
has done up to phase 3 studies of MDMA and they're showing
11:05
insane benefits, right? So 67 percent of the
11:10
participants after the phase 2 study no longer met that
11:14
criteria for PTSD. That was two months after the
11:18
study ended and then there's follow-up studies as well.
11:22
But when you look at the millions of people that have
11:24
PTSD in the United States and the world.
11:27
Hmm. And then you look at a statistic
11:29
like 67% of people. No longer meet criteria.
11:33
Hmm. Right, that's why.
11:35
All right. That's so powerful.
11:37
I mean, look at all the vets and, you know, soldiers that we
11:40
have coming back home. Just I mean these guys
11:42
unfortunately or killing themselves at, you know, just
11:46
incredible rate and it's just, you know, it's it's hard to see,
11:52
you know, these studies and look at this research and be like,
11:55
gosh, why aren't we doing more about this, right?
11:57
Or why isn't this more available to more people?
11:59
And I think we're getting there. We're close right.
12:01
And hopefully, as you as you kind of reset in the bayou I
12:06
think probably by next year, MDMA will be FDA approved for
12:09
hopefully. Yeah, FDA.
12:10
So FDA gave MDMA the fast track to approval, right break.
12:16
Your status. Yep.
12:17
Not really fast and it shouldn't be fast to be honest because it
12:21
is important to learn all these new protocols that need to be
12:24
put into place because, you know, like you said, vets are
12:28
going outside of the country for care.
12:32
Even when this country is potentially why they have
12:36
developed PTSD, we aren't able to provide the care that we need
12:40
and we are losing so many vets. So hopefully with the f FDA
12:47
coming along and hopefully approving MDMA will be able to
12:51
provide care maybe end of this year and next year.
12:55
Yeah. But then, each state is going to
12:57
have their own stay in that as well, right?
12:59
Mmm. And it potentially could be FDA
13:02
approved and not rescheduled. So then we'll have to look at
13:04
that with. It could be FDA approved, and
13:07
you could prescribe it but the feds can come in at any moment.
13:11
And yeah, right down because you're using an illegal
13:14
substance, right? Cuz DEA drug enforcement agency,
13:19
they set the schedule. Correct.
13:21
Right. And FDA approves it for clinical
13:24
use. Yeah.
13:25
So FDA-approved oxycodone, your clinical use and the da made it
13:31
schedule to. Yeah.
13:33
Exactly. It's a DA might actually make it
13:35
schedule 1. Meaning there's no clinical
13:38
benefit and they might, they might put a lot of black down on
13:42
that so it can be challenging. Yeah, so schedule 1.
13:45
Yeah. No.
13:46
Clinical benefit, no therapeutic value but that's where most of
13:50
them like ketamine doesn't lie there but yes I'm dma.
13:54
Psilocybin schedule, 1 T, DM T. Exactly them, which you have
13:59
research that shows the complete opposite, right?
14:02
Yeah, but, you know, yeah, so if someone comes along and say, you
14:07
know you're just you're just hooking people up on drugs.
14:11
Yeah. Just making more attics.
14:12
Yeah like I think there's a lot of people who think that and
14:16
They're going along with all of that the negative connotations
14:21
of psychedelics, right? And so like if someone brings
14:25
that up to you and says, you know, how can you be involved
14:28
with this? Like how do you how do you talk
14:30
about that? I would talk about it for a long
14:32
time. I would have a lot to say bring
14:35
that lots of Statistics, that's a research studies whiteboard so
14:40
MDMA can have addictive properties, but psilocybin does
14:45
not. DMT does not the way that it's
14:49
prescribed to will affect that. And when you're doing
14:55
Psychotherapy with it it's very different than using a substance
14:59
and going to a club. Yeah.
15:02
The intensity of the work that comes, and I'm folds, because of
15:06
what it does, in your brain, to allow you to affect to tap into
15:09
some of those traumatic moments. It's not as likely to produce a
15:15
an addictive effect. Because of what we said about
15:17
set and setting. Yeah, are not going into this.
15:20
I can't wait to dance all night. Going into this with what can I
15:24
learn from this really traumatic event and how can I apply that
15:27
to change my life, right? It's very different right?
15:32
Agreed? Yeah, and I think that, you
15:34
know, talking about the trauma and all that.
15:36
Is that, you know what we're seeing is obviously, trauma gets
15:39
stored in the body, right? And it's making us sicker and
15:42
sicker and sicker and we're so good at just pushing that down
15:45
and, you know, I'm going To charge forward.
15:47
And I'm never going to really look at this, and you give it
15:49
the time that it needs and it's such an amazing tool to just,
15:53
you know, it takes down. All those barriers, right?
15:55
And it makes you look at all of those things face to face.
15:59
Yes. Looking for probably, you know,
16:01
a lot of us I think are probably not even really able to look at
16:04
those things, you know. So it's, it's an incredible tool
16:08
to, you know, work on the traumatic traumatic piece.
16:10
Definitely. Yeah.
16:12
MDMA will reduce the activity in your Yeah, so when we have
16:17
trauma, the amygdala, is there to help us write?
16:20
The maybe was there too to help us?
16:24
Stay safe? Yeah, right.
16:26
But then we have MDMA that reduces that and then you're
16:29
allowed to look at things a little bit differently.
16:32
You're able to look at them and stay your feet here, you know
16:35
where you are right versus, look at them and all of a sudden
16:38
you're Zapped back to whatever that experience was for you.
16:41
So it's very powerful and you're able to look at it with some
16:45
empathy for Elf is MDMA is and I'm pathogen.
16:48
It helps connect you to yourself and other people.
16:51
Yeah. So having that you're able to
16:53
look at it without or with some distance from maybe some of that
16:57
shame or some of that hate that you had for yourself for even
17:00
having that experience. So it's there's so many tears to
17:04
MDMA and why it is effective for trauma, right?
17:07
Yeah, I talked about this in some ways.
17:11
Similarly, when it comes to Suboxone treatment like
17:14
medication-assisted treatment, for opioid use disorder.
17:17
So a good really common refrain for people doing opioid use
17:22
disorder that are coming to New Waters is you know yes like I
17:26
use like massive amounts of Fentanyl and I'm just done with
17:30
opiates. I'm just done, I don't want to
17:32
be on Suboxone. I don't want to any MIT.
17:35
I just want to be sober and the thinking as Suboxone.
17:40
Just trading one, one drug for another, right?
17:44
It's I'm not actually bake. Progress in my recovery when I
17:47
do that and this that that talk makes a lot of sense like when
17:52
you just hear it as it is, but then you look at what happens to
17:56
people who go cold turkey without good support and over
18:01
90%, will probably relapse within the first year.
18:04
And so, then I talk about well, it depends on how you're using
18:08
Suboxone, right? Because some people, they are,
18:10
they are misusing, it recreationally or yourself
18:14
dosing without proper. Medical supervision and without
18:18
proper support. And yeah, it does look like drug
18:21
abuse from that perspective, especially if they makes it with
18:23
alcohol or a benzo. But I tell them hey you can use
18:28
Suboxone to disconnect from reality the same way you would
18:32
use fennel to disconnect from reality, or you can use Suboxone
18:37
to give her your withdrawal symptoms, get where your
18:40
cravings and get your feet on the ground.
18:43
Go to your appointments cook dinner for your kids.
18:47
Go to work. So one way using Suboxone.
18:50
You're actually more plugged into reality.
18:53
Another way you're disconnecting from reality and that's the real
18:57
difference between using it for addiction or using it for your
19:00
recovery like what's bring you closer to reality, right?
19:03
And so I think there's some parallels there.
19:06
Help how you can use psychedelics to escape reality
19:12
or if you use it too. Actually experience it more
19:15
intensely and more and more realistically and get your
19:18
recovery on track. Oh, definitely.
19:21
And I would even ask that person.
19:22
Like whose voice is that? Yeah he's saying it's you're
19:26
trading one for another. Is that is that your voice is
19:29
that somebody else's is that Society right?
19:32
And does that really fit what your intention is going into
19:35
this? Mhm because a lot of times it's
19:38
not it's the fear that you're trading one for another but if
19:42
you're able Cook dinner and be there for your kids and go to
19:46
work. Is that really a one-for-one
19:48
trade? Hmm, it's not totally different.
19:51
Yeah, I think it's the therapeutic component, right.
19:53
And that pressure where it all boils down.
19:55
To, in my opinion, is that, you know, if we're, you know, just
19:59
dosing these clients and they're not, there's no therapeutic
20:01
component to M80, which is medicated assisted therapy.
20:05
You know, then, you know, you're missing the target, you know,
20:08
right. And I think the same thing with,
20:11
with the, with the so psychedelics.
20:13
Yeah. Yeah, I mean you've got to have
20:14
a facilitator in that experience.
20:16
You've got to have somebody walking you through that
20:18
process. And yeah, it's essential, yeah,
20:22
thanks for bringing it back because I should have mentioned
20:24
that when we talked about Maps. Yeah.
20:26
Because they're approving it as the whole therapy.
20:29
So it's the medication assisted Psychotherapy, which is very
20:33
different than if we would talk about another medication like PM
20:38
Privado where it was approved as a medication, right?
20:41
And while cap ketamine assisted Therapy is going to improve the
20:44
effectiveness. It is not how it's necessarily
20:49
always marketed, right? So with MDMA, it's the whole
20:52
package, it's working together in Preparatory, stage has having
20:57
your dosing then having your integration and maybe we should
21:02
get into integration because that yeah, yeah, better
21:07
integration is taking what insights were gained during your
21:11
experience and letting them into your life.
21:14
So you have a profound experience.
21:17
You have all this Insight, you want to call your mom and tell
21:20
her you love her, you have, you know, some forgiveness for
21:25
yourself, but then you leave and then you go about life the same
21:28
way that you did before the experience.
21:30
Hmm. And that's very hard.
21:33
But you also have psychedelics also open up the
21:37
neuroplasticity, which you may be able to speak on more than I
21:41
do, which means But you can really open up more neural
21:46
Pathways and change the way that your brain sees its patterns
21:50
change the way that you interact change the way that you interact
21:53
with yourself, right? So when we have the therapeutic
21:57
component involved, you're able to really touch base on on the
22:02
implementation of I didn't just go do this experience and I felt
22:06
really good. That was great.
22:08
I did this experience learn these things and now my life is
22:12
changing and I'm In my life, in these ways and people around,
22:15
you will see it. A lot of times people would
22:18
leave. And this is anecdotal.
22:21
I did not experience this, but we were told that clients
22:25
believe and then people in their life would say, like, what's
22:28
changed. Something is really different
22:29
about you. You're coming to these dinners
22:32
or you're answering your phone or you're able to go here, what
22:35
did you do? Yeah, and just the light is back
22:38
in your eyes. Exactly.
22:40
You look younger or, you know, it's yeah, yeah, exactly.
22:43
That kind of stress. I feel like yeah.
22:46
Yeah. People like, you know, you hold
22:47
your head up a little bit higher, you're not afraid of
22:50
things as many as many times. So the integration part is is
22:55
something that one of my fears for when everything hopefully
22:59
does get approved that people will slack off on because a lot
23:03
of times it's the substance that gets people into the door but
23:06
it's the work before and after that's really going to improve
23:10
the longevity of what that experience was.
23:13
So the integration piece is is as important if not more
23:18
important than the medicine session itself.
23:21
Yeah. And, you know, I guess is there,
23:25
you know, is there a particular, you know, time frame that people
23:28
are looking at, you know, is it doing this?
23:30
Every six months or once a year? Or is there any sort of protocol
23:34
around that or there? Maybe I'm sure they'll develop
23:39
one. So the MDMA protocol was good
23:43
Any minute prep sessions, and then 18-hour MDMA session and
23:48
then the follow-up integration sessions and then the next
23:53
medicines session was three to five weeks later.
23:56
Got it. So, and it was a three protocol,
23:59
so three dosing sessions. Once it's approved, not
24:02
everybody has to do three. Some people may want to do five,
24:05
so it's going to be this every document that's being published.
24:09
Now for psychedelics is like a living breathing document
24:12
because It depends on the substance.
24:14
It depends on the person. It depends on what their goals
24:17
are. Hmm.
24:19
I don't, I think it'll always be a very flexible individualized
24:25
protocol. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:28
It's so it's Privado, right? It's out there.
24:30
It's a medication. Its most, frequently used simply
24:35
as a medication, right? So most of clinics.
24:38
I'm seeing you go in, you said and share you get your dose.
24:43
And your observe for one to two hours and and that's the end of
24:48
that, that day. And then you come back, you did
24:50
several times a week for several weeks.
24:53
How is it? How is that compared to ketamine
24:57
assisted Psychotherapy? Yeah, that's a good question.
25:00
So with tap, you would have way more intense preparation.
25:05
So what music do you want to listen to during your session?
25:09
It's always advised that it's no words more.
25:14
Just melodic it could be very soothing or it could be intense
25:18
depending on the intensity of the things that you want to work
25:23
through. Are you gonna bring a nice
25:24
shade? If one isn't provided for you
25:28
sometimes having little hard candies?
25:30
If you get a nasty taste in your mouth to just utilize if
25:34
necessary? Yeah, because like, you know, it
25:36
tastes very unpleasant. Yes it does.
25:39
And some places do a good job of prepping their clients for that
25:43
and some laces don't acknowledge it.
25:45
So just going through that right doing all the prep, what's your
25:49
intention? What are we going to do?
25:51
If you start to feel really unsettled during your session,
25:55
may be going through some breathwork, going through,
25:57
Therapeutic Touch. Like if you need somebody's hand
26:00
to hold, this is where I'll hold your hand when you're ready to
26:03
let go. This is what we're going to do.
26:06
If you need to go to the restroom, this is where I'll
26:08
touch your back. This is where I'll touch your
26:10
hand if you need it. Like, going through Tons and
26:13
tons of consent. Yeah.
26:15
Then we have the actual medicine session and it's a very non
26:19
directive approach. So the therapist is not in the
26:21
room talking to you the whole time.
26:24
It's very inner directed. We talk about it inner healing
26:28
intelligence so you your body naturally wants to heal you.
26:32
Your brain naturally wants to heal you.
26:34
The therapist isn't? They're using ifs or EMDR or CBT
26:40
like you're just there as a supportive person.
26:43
Yep. That's there to coach.
26:45
Just your overall Wellness if necessary.
26:47
Gotcha. But then if you say something
26:49
really intriguing, the therapist might write it down, right?
26:52
So the therapist can be taking notes.
26:55
So if you say something powerful, we can use that later
26:58
in the integration stages. With, you know, you brought this
27:01
up. Do you remember what was going
27:02
on? How are you going to apply that
27:04
to your life now? so then, after the closure of
27:08
the medicine session, then meeting for your integration
27:12
sessions afterward, and you know what came up for you, what's
27:16
different If anything. Yeah, if it's not different how
27:21
are we going to work on that especially having people going
27:24
in with suicidal ideation and wanting to work through that?
27:27
Hmm. If you still have it at the end
27:29
and you don't have somebody to talk to you about that that is
27:32
so chattering, right? So having a professional that
27:36
you can talk to him support already laid out.
27:40
So you're more likely to feel yourself, feel what you can do
27:43
next versus just feeling hopeless, because this is the
27:46
thing that was supposed to help me.
27:48
I went out of my brain to do this.
27:50
Yeah, and I still feel like crap, right?
27:53
So having a therapeutic support for that.
27:57
Yeah. Will that be all those
27:59
integration sessions after one medication session?
28:02
Mmm, we're like several. It depends.
28:05
Okay. It's I ideally.
28:09
Yes. So you would have your prep
28:11
session and then your medicine session and then your
28:13
integration session or more some people than And want to go back
28:19
pretty quickly and do a next session.
28:21
Some people don't. Uh-huh.
28:23
It really just depends, but having an integration session or
28:27
at least some sort of protocol to do after your medicine
28:30
sessions would write, would always be advised.
28:32
Yeah, and have you have you worked with clients that have
28:35
experienced both like conventional medicine, only
28:38
versus kind of assisted Psychotherapy?
28:41
Yeah. And what kinds of stories are
28:43
they telling about the difference?
28:44
So, We talked about convention, conventional medicine.
28:49
Do you mean like ssris or oh, just likes Privado like, you
28:52
know, you went to the clinic. They gave you your dose and
28:55
they, you know, they checked you out a couple hours later got
28:58
you. Yes.
28:59
So I had a client who had a pretty negative experience
29:02
because it was there was a lot of different things that
29:05
interacted where the set was not talked about.
29:09
The person in the room, was not the person in the room that
29:12
would have been. She knew this person and so then
29:15
she Afraid of what I'm going to say.
29:19
Because I know this person, what if the thoughts I'm having I'm
29:22
saying out loud because it, you don't know sometimes.
29:25
Uh-huh. Like what is my thought and what
29:26
am I actually verbalizing? Right, right.
29:28
So that is what tripped me up to reach out to the provider and
29:33
say, can I, how would you feel if I came in?
29:36
This is where I'm coming from. This is my experience in the
29:39
provider. Open welcomed me with open arms,
29:41
which is fantastic. Yeah.
29:43
But then after that, the experience was a lot more.
29:46
Or calling it. She knew that.
29:47
If she said something even I told her.
29:49
Even if you say I cannot stand Leslie.
29:52
She's the worst therapist ever, that.
29:54
That's totally. Okay.
29:55
Yeah, and I'm not when she opens her eyes, I'm not going to say,
29:57
so let's talk about this. Like I'm really happy that you
30:01
felt honestly like, that's okay, right?
30:04
So having a space to where you could just be completely
30:07
yourself and then working on it afterwards with a therapist that
30:12
knows more about the experience. And What I've heard has been
30:17
really helpful. Hmm.
30:18
Versus just kind of relying on yourself and then right?
30:22
Telling the doctor. Yes, it was good or no, I think
30:24
I need more or mhm. I don't ever want to do this
30:27
again. What did you do to me?
30:29
Thanks, right. Huge difference.
30:31
Yeah, definitely, uh, I mean, is there anybody that absolutely
30:36
should not do this? That's a good question.
30:40
I think with people who have a history of like intense history,
30:46
Three of dissociation. But I say that with also stating
30:50
that there are therapists that will specialize in working with
30:53
people with dissociation through psychedelics.
30:57
So it depends on the medical team that you have and it should
31:01
always be some sort of team if possible.
31:04
So it's not just a therapist. Like there is a provider doctor
31:07
that or a PA or whatever, but that knows the medical side that
31:11
can work on work with you to taking vitals to throw out.
31:15
Exactly. Exactly throughout because
31:17
there's there's practitioners that specialize in working with
31:19
people with Autism with psychedelics.
31:21
There's practitioners that will specialize in working with
31:24
people with bipolar disorder with psychedelics, where you
31:26
have that potential for Mania. So, making sure that you have a
31:30
practitioner, that nose is much as they can before you make that
31:34
decision. Yes, is important.
31:36
Yeah. So, again, the absence of a
31:38
special care plan for people are complicated, most practices will
31:43
say you know, relative contraindications Our history of
31:46
psychosis, history of mania history of like very high or
31:51
uncontrolled hypertension because ketamine can cause your
31:54
blood pressure to rise dramatically.
31:57
Shh. Yeah.
31:58
And also substance use so like people who are actively abusing
32:02
substances Academy would not be considered like the right time
32:06
to do the treatment. Got it.
32:07
And what about clients that are on any other Medicaid like are
32:12
on ssris and things of that nature.
32:15
Is that can Teen in any way or you can be on an antidepressant
32:18
and I kind of mean but most people are on are doing ketamine
32:22
treatment because they don't respond to ssris.
32:25
And there's there's some new clinical research coming out
32:28
showing that in this study population.
32:31
Ketamine treatment was equivalent to ECT.
32:36
ECT is considered like the most effective, the most rapid
32:40
resolution of severe depression but it's a very Taxing procedure
32:47
to undergo, you have to be seen by an anesthesiologist and a
32:51
psychiatrist. At the same time.
32:53
You have to basically take the whole day off from work because
32:56
you have to be driven to the clinic and because of the
32:58
anesthesia, you really can't drive yourself home.
33:02
And this is like three times a week for like two to three
33:05
weeks. Pertinent index course.
33:07
And that's your take talking about taking like a month off of
33:10
work basically for a lot of people.
33:12
Yeah. Well that's credible to the idea
33:15
that That ketamine is equivalent to e.
33:17
CT is a game changer for treatment, refractory
33:20
depression. Yeah, absolutely.
33:23
Yeah. Other questions duck like so
33:29
many. Yeah, let's see.
33:35
So like I said, have you ever wondered what are some things
33:42
that patients should really think about before like dislike?
33:46
What are some things that a patient with would reflect on
33:49
say? Yeah, this could be the right
33:51
fit for me. Openness number one.
33:54
Mmm flexibility. T is important because if when
33:58
people go in with rigidity and knowing what to expect that can
34:02
backfire a lot and so we ask people to go in with a
34:05
beginner's mind where you're open to whatever unfolds and you
34:10
also know that you have support for whatever unfolds, right?
34:14
People who I think have had psychedelic experience, can be
34:19
helpful but it's not necessary in many of the studies actually
34:24
had a high number of people All that.
34:26
We're coming from a Catholic background where they did not
34:29
have a, the flexibility Catholicism and flexibility.
34:33
Don't really mesh that well and nor does psychedelic, he's
34:38
right. But they actually had really
34:40
incredible experiences and labeled them as some of the most
34:44
spiritual experiences that I've ever had.
34:47
So being able to be flexible and to be able to go with the flow
34:52
now saying that to somebody with a history of trauma, can they
34:55
might say, aye. Hey, I'm not flexible.
34:56
I can't be flexible if I'm flexible, I might get hurt.
35:00
So working on that ahead of time too, but I think just people who
35:05
are are open to it, you know, and trust your gut.
35:10
If the more you learn, the more, you think it's not for you go
35:12
with that. I think with it being
35:15
everywhere. Now, where there's books,
35:17
there's podcast. There's, I mean, yeah, there's
35:20
Netflix, right? There's so many things on
35:22
psychedelics where it's almost being shown as a silver.
35:26
It. And so people think this is what
35:28
I should do, right? And it's not, it will be
35:31
effective for some people, it will be ineffective for some
35:34
people. Hmm.
35:36
So going into it, thinking it through for you, not, this is
35:41
what I should do because this is what I see everywhere because
35:44
there's a catchy headline. Yeah, yeah.
35:47
And I would also think too, that that everybody has got to be
35:49
very careful about where they're doing this.
35:51
I mean, if they're going out of the country to do this, you
35:54
know, be very very Cautious right about where I'm going,
35:57
right? Because I think that there are a
35:59
lot of people that are kind of taking advantage of the fact
36:02
that this is such a Hot Topic right now and maybe aren't don't
36:05
have the right, you know, the right people involved or the or
36:09
the right support involved, right?
36:12
When one of these places, right? Yeah.
36:14
Doing your due. Diligence is essential, for
36:16
sure. And it's even hard to, for
36:18
people who don't really know, what even what questions do even
36:21
asked? What would you tell ya?
36:24
What kind of questions I would ask.
36:26
If you're going outside of the country, what type of support?
36:29
What are my accommodations going to be like?
36:32
Am I going to be by myself or somebody going to be with me the
36:35
whole time? Is there going to be a camera in
36:37
the room? What's my dose going to be?
36:40
How often do I talk to a provider?
36:42
A medical provider? How many sessions do I have
36:45
before or after? What do I do?
36:47
If I get there and I don't want to do it, is that going to be
36:50
something that's accepted and discussed?
36:52
Or is this something where you're here?
36:54
And I'm going to be talking you into it.
36:55
It. I think when it comes to
37:00
underground work too, that's very popular and I think a lot
37:04
of underground work is great and then there's a lot of
37:07
underground work. That is abusive explain
37:09
underground water sure yeah thank you.
37:11
So underground work would be practitioners they could be
37:15
licensed or they could not be necessarily licensed but they're
37:19
facilitating sessions with medicine from homes or from
37:24
airbnb's or from Calls and it sounds pretty sketchy and it can
37:29
be pretty sketchy, but it also can be really powerful and how
37:33
do you know the difference, right?
37:35
So I would always ask people, I would, you know, if I was trying
37:39
to find a place to go for myself, I would ask like, who is
37:43
the facilitator? Am I able to speak to the
37:45
facilitator? What other people are going to
37:48
be there as support? Are these people going to be
37:51
also under the influence of the medicine.
37:53
And I'm not saying that if they Answer is.
37:56
Yes, that's wrong but it's good to know, right?
37:59
What is a normal session? Like, has anything bad ever
38:05
happened? What do you guys do when
38:06
something like that happens? If I pass out what's going to
38:09
happen, right? Like there's so many different
38:14
ways that something can go wrong but with adequate adequate
38:17
preparation. You're really helping yourself
38:20
to figure out what's going to happen next.
38:22
Yeah. Can I bring somebody?
38:24
Yeah. Can I talk to somebody?
38:26
Is gone through your protocol just to see what their
38:28
experience was like. Yeah I think that's a huge one
38:31
right there and we do that with a lot of alumni families and
38:34
whatnot. You know is less than you know
38:36
we're happy to set you up with a couple of my parents who've been
38:40
through a program experience, what we do and you know they can
38:42
kind of tell you what their experience was like, right?
38:44
And yeah something like that. Would be huge.
38:47
Definitely an experience like this right?
38:49
You know I mean I would want to know somebody who went there and
38:52
had gone through this before. Yeah exactly.
38:55
Also, what's the facilitators background, right?
38:58
How long they've been doing this, you know, why are they
39:00
doing this? Yes.
39:02
Yeah, especially if I'm always wary of people, especially in
39:06
Western culture that refer to themselves as a shaman.
39:09
Right. And I'm not saying that there
39:13
aren't some, but just to be aware of that.
39:16
What is our they approachable? Did they think that they know
39:19
everything because that's always a red flag for me.
39:24
I mean, even through all of my training, And learning from
39:26
people who have been in been experiencing psychedelics and
39:30
been studying psychedelics for longer than I've been alive.
39:34
They'll always say that they don't know everything.
39:37
They're always learning. And they can learn from anybody
39:40
regardless of where they are in their career.
39:42
And that's what I Look to, right?
39:45
Not the person who's all-knowing and can feel everything and
39:48
since everything it's the people that are just on just a guy.
39:52
I'm just a girl and you know this is this is my calling and
39:55
if I need help. I'll ask, right?
39:57
That's always really powerful to hear.
40:00
Mhm. Yeah.
40:02
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's obviously a
40:04
great topic and more will be kind of exposed here, over the
40:09
coming two years, and it'll really be interesting to see how
40:12
the politics play into all this and how big Pharma plays into
40:16
all this. But I think all in all, you
40:18
know, going back to like the therapeutic component, you know,
40:21
is just, you know, if we lose that or if that's somehow
40:24
doesn't become the priority, Then I think that they're this
40:28
this isn't going to be as effective as it could be, right,
40:30
I've got a hold on to that but thank you for coming in and
40:34
speaking with us today this was so fun and yeah we're can
40:38
everybody find you first and first off?
40:40
Yes. So through my practice website
40:43
is www.pevs.com not prison prism wellness and si.com and my
40:50
contact information is on the website, perfect and we'll have
40:54
everything listed out to and Our show notes and you can find us
40:57
at finding new Waters.com and this will be streaming on all
41:01
streaming platforms and we will see you all next week.
41:04
Yeah. Thank you.
41:05
Thank you. Thank you for Leslie.