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Who Are You Around Your Friends? | Friendship, Identity & Male Loneliness · Bro-ing Pains

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: What's up world?
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Browing Pains, where we have the conversations that live somewhere between your therapist's office and the group chat.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Chad, a licensed marriage and family therapist, but my friends like to call me Puppet Chat.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Carlos, theater kid or self-proclaimed corporate puppy.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And quick reminder: this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you're struggling or know someone who is, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional in your area.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Alrighty.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, everybody.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is Browing Pains Season 3, Episode 4.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're going to be talking about friendships.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Friendships are a huge part of our identity.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: The people we surround ourselves with don't just influence what we do, they can shape who we feel like we're allowed to be.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: We invite you to think about the different versions of yourself that show up around different friends.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're the funny one, the responsible one, or the person everyone comes to when something goes wrong.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes those friendships give us space to grow into ourselves.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Other times we change and the people around us still expect us to be the person they've always known.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Nah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: And for men specifically, there's another layer to this.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: We hear constantly about male loneliness and men struggling to build emotionally intimate friendships.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're not getting that kind of connection from your friendships, where do you go looking for it?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Does it fall on your romantic partner?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do you find it through men's groups or online communities?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens when a community offers you belonging, but also starts telling you who you need to be in order to belong?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: The manosphere, we're looking at you.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: So today we're asking, how do our friendships shape who we allow ourselves to be?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And where do you find belonging when friendships aren't emotionally fulfilling?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And is that something that you care about?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you pretend not to care about it even though you're actually really lonely and you crave real friendships, but you don't know what to do?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Ease people into it, Chad.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: We present to you vignette number 11.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: How far will I go?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Eli was 14 when he started realizing that his friends were becoming the most important people in his life.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Home was chaos.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: His mom and her boyfriend fought constantly.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Money was tight, and Eli had learned pretty early that nobody was really keeping track of where he was or what he was doing.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: His friends were different.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: They noticed him.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And Eli quickly figured out that if he could make them laugh, surprise them, or do something nobody else would do, he could keep their attention.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So he became the guy who always had an idea.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sneak into the construction site, Eli had a plan.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Steal something from the gas station, he'd already figured out how.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: His friends thought he was fearless.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Eli liked that.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: The problem was, every time he did something, he felt like the next thing had to be bigger.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: One night, the guys were hanging out when Eli suggested they steal something from a local store.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone got excited.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Then one of his friends laughed and said, Dude, you always come up with the craziest shit.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Eli smiled.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: But inside, he wondered what would happen if he didn't.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: What if he stopped being the funny one, the fearless one?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: The guy who always had something bigger planned.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Would they still want him around?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Would they still think he's cool?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: A few weeks later, Eli was sitting with the same group when someone asked, So what's the next thing we're doing?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Eli laughed and started throwing out ideas.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: But this time, he wasn't trying to impress them.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: He was trying to figure out what he could possibly do that would be enough.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And for the first time, Eli wondered, how far am I willing to go to keep people around?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And what would happen if I try to stop being someone I'm not?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: This reminds me a lot of of my brother's situation.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have spent a lot of time in trying to like trying to unpack why my brothers behaved the way that they did growing up, because I feel like we're all wildly different from one another.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: They spent some time with a single mom before my dad came into the picture.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: And even then, it's a stepfather, right?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so like it's it's not, it's a different situation, it's a different setup.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: My brother was involved in like gangs or just hanging around the wrong crowds.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think that was largely due to I mean, for one, he was the oldest, right?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So my mom didn't know what the hell she was doing.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was her first child.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can relate.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: No one does.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're in good hands.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: All state.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, all state.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Damn it.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you beat me to it.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's also just kind of like a beautiful thing as well, because what some may deem as the wrong crowd, right?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hanging out with the wrong crowd is probably likely a bunch of misfits that also have similar backgrounds.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: These are people that are coming together and finding community within one another within one another.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, maybe they're not behaving the the best.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Making poor choices.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say though, I I think they're making the choices that are presented in front of them, right?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, when you don't have the resources and the access to be able to, you know, go to the tumble gym, you know, because it costs hella money and your parents don't take you, you know, or all you got is a fucking basketball.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, with my work with like working in schools in the past, um, you know, like I would just see like a lot of kids that like deep down I think would be really great kids if given like structure and opportunity and just um being able to play in a positive environment, but you know, not everybody had parents that would shell out money for a little league every single year.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Or I remember, you know, playing pop-warner football, and like there were like a couple kids who like were gonna be the best players on our team, but they could not afford to play.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so they were trying to come up with the money and then to try to get like the head coach would like sponsor them.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like it was it was crazy.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I never had that problem.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So what what comes to mind there is that this is an identity that is largely reinforced by other people.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: But what happens when you've outgrown that identity or that version of yourself?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is something that I mean, I relate to a lot.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And just to be a little vulnerable, I mean, my home life was, you know, hit and miss as far as my ability to feel like I'm getting all my needs met.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I I did, I was, I really related to Eli to crave like this external validation, um, like we've talked about many times.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I I found that a lot with friends.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there's this identity that starts forming as like this class clown, this guy who's willing to say funny things.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And really what it is is like to make other people feel comfortable.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And really, I kind of rooted in my identity of being like a big, a bigger guy, a fat kid, kind of used like the trauma of you know bullying and just kind of flipped it on its head and basically said, you know, if everybody else feels awkward at the middle school dance and they don't start the dance floor, like I mean, if the fat kid starts dancing and he's cool with it, then everybody else will join with them because like he looks like an idiot doing it, and everyone else will join.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: That was the process in my head that was going down.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: My understanding, my interpretation of that is always like, oh, this person just likes being the center of attention because it's a skill that comes naturally to you.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, I would I I would say, at least for me, that couldn't be farther from the truth.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: It was a skill that I developed out of a necessity to be liked and appreciated and funny and cool and enough.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the theme that I'm picking up on is that like the you know, the external validation, seeking that external validation started at a really young age and it like it was just being reinforced by reinforced in all of these different areas of your life, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's like family, your friends, your like romantic partners.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Sport, sports.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Sport, sports.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I was like a really good player on the team, then I got a lot of praise.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And or people look up to me or looked up to me as a leader.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is it if the biggest guy on the wrestling team is the one who's finishing first on the on the sprints, it says something to the other team mates about like, you know, wanting to put more effort in?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And oh wow, look at our heavyweight is, you know, sprinting faster than our 135-pounder.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's you know, that's something.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: So and I'm I'm I'm I know and I'm picking up on that, and I'm using that as fuel to be liked and respected.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Did you feel like your friendships allowed you to be who you really are or or explore who you really are?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think a lot of it, what people like is put their own constraints on themselves.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I think if I would have allowed myself to be more who I am, I it's hard to say if I would have been still accepted or not, but I I want to think that people are nice overall, usually, and would accept me.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: What I will say is that I did get a lot of this, you know, feedback and reinforcement of my identity, oftentimes, and it even still happens to this day.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: I just went over to my in-law's house the other day.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And if I'm ever just like a little quiet because I'm tired, like people start to wonder, like, well, what's going on with Chad?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Something's wrong.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're used to Chad being very extroverted and loud and you know, comedic and charismatic and all this stuff.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so there is this like identity formation around people reinforcing like what's wrong?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Something must be wrong with you, right?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if you're too quiet, Chad.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: That happened a lot, especially like, you know, growing up.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: If Chad was kind of quiet, people thought something was wrong.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Man, we had such uh wildly different uh experiences growing up.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it sounds like.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Similar to, you know, to like if you're ever quiet and somebody's like, what's wrong?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: I got that I was quiet or shy all of the time growing up.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've always felt very intentional about my energy and and like I knowing that like I I don't think I had the language for that at that age, but I think that I protected my energy, my social battery.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it just felt like competing with all of these different personalities and you know, the class clown, the chads of the classrooms, right?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: With You said I fucked you up, basically, is what you say.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: For in my head, it's like, so what?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm quiet.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like you already have a Chad, like he's the entertainment.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't worry about me, you know.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Don't put that on me though, right?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because then that gets a different perspective.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now the entertainer needs to always be the entertainer.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, man, what if we allowed Carlos to just do that a little bit, you know?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think there was like it was very conflicting.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: I was being reinforced by others around me that I was just quiet and super and quiet and shy.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I also had this passion and and this want to perform and to tell stories, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can remember being in elementary school and loving, like playing house.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and like that was not ever um a thing that like boys were allowed to do or or like you know, you'd be looked at differently because you were playing house.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're talking about our identities and how they're shaped from you know, these feedbacks that we're getting from people around us.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: And people find a lot of solace in friendships, I think.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Especially if you're like Eli, where you know your home life is kind of chaotic.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like friendships are everything, especially developmentally appropriate for a middle school age kid.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, friends are everything.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you ever try to parent a teenager or talk to a parent of a teenager, they tell you, oh, they don't care about me no more.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: They just want to be with their friends.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's developmentally appropriate because they're learning how to become themselves through friendships.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: I guess my question is, are they really becoming themselves or are they becoming what their friends like about them?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: What comes to mind for me is I can remember being in high school.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: This was the the first guy that I ever dated.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: He was my first boyfriend in high school.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we dated for like three months, and then we were we like remained friends.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's a long-term relationship in high school.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: In high in high school, yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my second one was six months.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're about to put a ring on it.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, because it she had a vagina.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um got it.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: But uh what was I saying?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so I I remember with this first boyfriend, he, I mean, you know, like as as a partner should like be curious and and be interested in getting to know you and and getting to know everything about you.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um I remember remember being really touched by that.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like at that age, just thinking like, wow, nobody's really cared enough or like paid enough attention to ask all these different things about me and like and try to you know figure me out.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so that I I remember that being kind of really pivotal in in my development because, and especially after losing my cousin, I kept everything in and I was just like so internal with everything.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: And here's this person offering me that like not an olive branch, but like extending that that courtesy of like, hey, like I'm here for you, type of thing.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: It definitely made things, it made it easier for me to let others in, you know, and and like I'm so grateful to have met the friends that I did in in college.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I'm I think that's one thing that I'm very proud of and very grateful for that I have these friendships for over 10 years at this point.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a joy to to grow alongside them and to to develop alongside them because you know, like it's our friendship is like not at all the same what it was when we first met, but like that's a part of growing up, right?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and the fact that like we've been able to maintain this friendship for so long, that's one of the the things I'm most proud of.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a really great point that you you know have allowed your guys' selves to grow within the friendship, you know, and there's a lot of times where people grow apart, you know, and it's because they have different interests.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure that within your close friend group, you've had people that maybe have different interests now or different priorities, and you've had to learn how to adapt that friendship and be able to you didn't have to.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: No one put a gun to your head and you guys chose to keep that.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I also am thinking about how like the fact that you have maintained these friendships over a long period of time and how much I hear in the room about loneliness, there there's even times where I try to hear I hear people sometimes try to convince me or themselves that they don't need friends.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say someone's just single, they're just a single guy or whatever, and they're coming to me and something like that, and I'm like, you know, you just go to work and that's all you do.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what about like trying to find like a meetup group or go like play some sports or go, you know, I don't know, do something fun, or take a stand-up comedy class, or whatever.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And they're just like, I mean, what am I gonna do?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Then try to like, then I have to thank these friends.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it's just this part of them that they've like shut off of being able to connect.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, part of my job is to try to figure out well why and and and curiously identify where that comes from.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm saying is it's such an important part of someone's identity because we're relational people.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and there's just so much complexity with it over the years because like as Eli in this vignette is trying to figure out like who he is within this concept of friendship.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And as you get older, hopefully you're you're not feeling pulled from friendships to be a certain type of person.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that comes from you know maturity and experience.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: I find that fascinating that you do get so many men specifically in the room that are single and also struggle with building friendships or build building community because it's like what so then who who are you talking to?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like who are you leaning on to navigate this fucking chaotic world?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like you can't do it by yourself.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's that cliche of like it takes a village.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I truly do believe that.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's yes, we can do hard things, but at the same time, we do not have to do it alone.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I guess the question is what do you do when your villages turn their back on you?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's understandable why they why someone would not desire building close friendships when they've had, you know, pretty bad experiences with being let down, or what are you thinking about?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: What's that saying of like if everybody's saying you're the problem, then maybe you're the problem?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: I refuse to believe people are problems.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: To me, it's just a protective factor of not wanting to get hurt and building a relationship as a friendship is is a risk.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know if they're always gonna be there.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's hurtful when you feel abandoned or you you lose somebody, whether that be actually physically lose them to like a passing or move away for a job or whatever it is.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a risk.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So what what are the types of conversations that you have with people that are struggling with that, right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: That that they've they've had friendships that have turned their back on them.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that discourages them from building new friendships and building community elsewhere.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: How can somebody navigate that?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell The first thing is to like talk about, you know, like differentiation and becoming your own person and not letting like other people's actions mean something about who you are as a person.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if someone decides to, you know, no longer be your friend or stops talking to you.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like the danger there is going to the extreme of that, right?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's you don't care about anybody because fuck everybody and I'm I can do this on my own, type of thing, right?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next step, what I was gonna say, if you would just shut the fuck up.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like, you know, the next step is to be able to understand that what you're doing is essentially you're cutting off a part of your human condition.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're saying that like I'd never want to get hurt again, so I'm just gonna not interact with friends.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like you're missing out on a lot of like potentially good opportunities as well.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can't protect yourself from pain.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And when you do experience pain, you're gonna be okay.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like you made it through this one.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Let's not cut yourself out from the world because this one hurt really bad.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're gonna get on your feet and you're gonna thus yourself off and you're gonna figure it out.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: But that's why having community is so important, so that you can get on your feet quicker and things like that.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's sad to see that people's reaction of getting hurt is to close themselves off.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: The wise words of of Aliyah came to mind if at first you don't succeed, dust yourself off and try again.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Something that that we see or hear about very often is men only leaning on their partner and opening up to their partner, right?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can have your boys, you can have your homies that you go and you know get drinks with, but are you actually opening up to them?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Are you actually getting that feels so weird to say, getting those emotional needs met, right?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: As we've discussed on this podcast before, your partner can't hold all of that, or or I I think shouldn't hold all of that, and or be the only person holding all of that.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think that leads into like why we decided to do this episode with this season is like, what does it mean to be a friend?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of times, especially men, they don't view friendship as emotion emotional intimacy.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: They view it as someone who's gonna go have a good time, watch the ball game with, have a few drinks and laughs, and then go home.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: But you're not going to your friend because you're feeling down, right?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Especially, I mean, growing up in you know, school, definitely not, right?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so why would you all of a sudden start doing that in college or whatever?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so what and what's the harm in that, right?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's like seeing your friends as um as an escape, or or I guess the the it could be the equivalent.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was gonna say it could be the equivalent to taking the edge off.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: But then is it are you just congregating around alcohol or actually building community?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like another one uh fantasy football leagues.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just breeding grounds for just shit.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Talking and you know, clowning each other on the traditional sense.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I hear the majority of times from the group chats of fantasy football leagues.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: They don't see friendships as this is the place to go.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess to me, you say, what's the problem with that?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is like you're you're reducing someone's humanity to their friendship with you being about fun and happiness.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's not who we are all the time, right?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: We can't always be that with people.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, sometimes we have a bad day and there needs to be more uh tolerance for the the breath of the human condition.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the same thing with me in the room with my job.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, ideally, I would love to be just like the wise Buddhist monk therapist adult in the room.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes I didn't get a lot of sleep the night before.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I'm having a bad day.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I'm so sore that I'm having a hard time getting in and out of the chair.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but we have to be able to allow ourselves to be our full human selves in in relationships, I think.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think men do a really bad job with friendships because they view friendships as fun.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: F is for fun.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: F is for friends who do stuff together.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Even that, even that.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: F is for friends who do stuff together.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like it makes it feel like, okay, so when I'm hanging out with friends, we can't just sit and do nothing.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: You all learn that from Spongebob.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't, I didn't learn that.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm better because of it.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm just kidding.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's also important for young boys and young men to, you know, seek out or or just get the opportunity to see examples of what friendships could look like.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I can't think of pop culture references of intimate loving friendships.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: You did bring up friends, a TV show on the last episode, and you were like grossed or opened my mouth, which I kind of relate to.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's I think it's layered, right?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think there's definitely some problematic issues about the show.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I would argue that the male friendship specifically in that show had some breadth to it.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say dumb and dumber.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, their whole friendship is this them being like, I mean, I guess they're so dumb that there is this like cute, loving part underneath it all.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Bad boys franchise, Mike Laura.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: But even then, there's still a lot of like male bravado and like I mean, not a lot.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the whole thing is just like off of So there there's not a lot of room for emotional intimacy.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you wouldn't see like just like two guy friends just like chatting it up about like how they're feeling.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've talked or mentioned this to you before, but working at my previous job, it was the first time I had coworkers that were around my age and also guys.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Things have changed now, but a lot of my friendships in the past were women.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: I found it really fascinating that for one, I was able to like step into this world that was more male-dominated, this work environment, individually with my male coworkers.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: I could open up to them and they could open up to me.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: But then when we would be together as a group, it was it was just much more about like, it was it was less about feelings and things like that.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what I mean?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was clear that they were opening up to one another.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering if it has to do with you being gay.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: As a male who's a straight male, there's this level of safeness in not like competing or whatever, you know what I mean?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't I don't know.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to think out loud here.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: But that yeah, I would I could talk about that all day long, I think.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's really fascinating.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because yeah, clearly, and I say this all the time, I mean, we all have the skills to be able to do this.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I just wish that men found value in doing this with other men.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I guess it takes some boldness.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then what I was gonna say too is you know, that was your former coworkers.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, are they gonna maintain those relationships with you?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: I would like to, and I and I'm I'm gonna make an effort to they're not.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: They're not, they're not going to.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: You don't think so?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I I would be surprised and I guess challenge accepted, but I what I often see is because proximity changes.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And people's priorities are not associated with maintaining, you know, long-term, you know, intimate relationships other than the people that they happen to associate with just from proximity.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a very real thing.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I understand that things are hard.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that everybody has their own life to live, right?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because I value their friendship, I would like to make an effort.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't know if that's going to be reciprocated, but I I feel like I have enough like security within myself to be like, okay, that's fine.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it wasn't, I'm not gonna be hurt by them not reciprocating that, is what I'm trying to say.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell I I don't think you should be hurt or you know, make it mean something about who you are as a person.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's just another example of yet a potential, you know, quality friendship that could happen outside of work uh between two men.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably not going to.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to give the listeners information on these resources that you're providing.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's that's what they are at the end at the end of the day, I think, are they're resources.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're another opportunity to build community with with with other men or other people around you.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's important.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like not everybody is doing that, and not everybody is like it, it's even you just pitching that idea, you already have 11 people that are like, yes, I'm on board, sign me up.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's so it's it's it's very, very apparent that people want community and they're seeking community, but they don't life is hard.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, life is hard.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, I'm going to, I mean, it's gonna happen here soon.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's funny that you say this because I've been running my men's group for my therapy men's group for like four or five years now.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's gone into multiple different iterations.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're looking for something like this, I am gonna be starting a virtual one for everybody in the state of California to join.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a pretty low cost, like 40 or 50 bucks once a week, and you join.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I call it a men's relational growth group because I I typically attract men who are struggling in their relationships with their intimate partners.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so they sign up originally because of that.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh, we're gonna go talk about you know my relationship with my partner.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And turns out we're actually talking about the relationship with themselves.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but shh, don't tell anybody.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so when they join, I I literally hear this all the time from almost every single person I've joined that have I've joined the group.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is like, why is it that I can come to a men's group with a group of strangers and open up and be vulnerable and have these emotional discussions about life and about our fathers and about our children?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel closer to you than I do my friends.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I tell them, like, what is it about this group that that makes that easy?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we start to deconstruct that.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And number one, there's a set time and place with expectations, right?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like you all know that, you know, for my in-person one, Monday is at 5 p.m.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: until 6 15 p.m.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: You're supposed to be coming.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: People are expecting you, and they want to hear from you, and you're welcomed and you're you're you're seen and you're heard.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Next thing you know, you start coming more and more because you're looking forward to that feeling.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm like, go make that with somebody, like people who not matter to you, like not that we don't matter, but I'm like, I tell people all the time I'm a therapist, like, I'm just some fucking guy in your life.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, go go make these groups and and and meet up with people that you know mean a lot to you, a lot more to you throughout your life.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then next thing you know, we they start bringing all these examples and ideas of like what they were gonna do with friends or what they're gonna start doing, and it starts to trickle in into their life.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And next thing you know, now they're leaving the men's group because now they're off, you know, finding their friendships and finding their community elsewhere.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's incredible.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's really cool, yeah.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes another thing that I hear that the benefit of the men's group is that it serves as a reminder of the type of man that I want to be in my relationships.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so every single week I'm getting potentially challenged in a constructive, positive way about how I'm interacting with my partner.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me go want to be a better partner at home.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and so that's the another benefit of having this maintained friendship within the group, but then also outside of the group as you continue on your own, is that you're getting this reminder, this feedback from other people, and and they're challenging you in a loving, positive way to be the person that you want to be.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy how easy it it feels or it seems when you just build it, right?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's that that saying, right?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you build it, they will come.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's because it's clear that people, men specifically, need this and and are seeking this, and it it like it makes an impact, right?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and like they're so willing to open up to one another.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: But not everybody is is out there making an app in and coordinating.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: It it takes some coordination.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: It does take some coordination, it takes some effort, but it also just takes some intentionality of like, what do I want to do for my life, for my day, for my week, for my month?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: What's important to me?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is it important to me to make sure that Thursday night football and Sunday night football, Monday night football is blocked off and I'm not talking to anybody, I'm just kidding, get back and drinking a beer, or do I want to prioritize spending quality time with my friendships?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how am I gonna prioritize that?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's about that that that's you taking care of yourself and thinking that your mental health is important.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: That takes some some ownership and leadership from yourself to be able to do that.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing when when men actually do, you know, take that.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I guess the broing pain is to for me is that you know, your identity as a friend is hard to maintain when your other parts of your identity feel so insurmountable to accomplish.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you have you know a partner and kids and a job, it's like those needs feel like they're just too much.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's that's the other thing that I hear a lot is like that's why I don't have time for friends, because I'm supposed to be a protector, a provider, and I have so much family time that I have to do, or just partner time, that I I start to deprioritize my my identity as a friend.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that I think that's a miss.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a miss.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: We get a lot of joy from our friendships.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it fucking sucks that like because of capitalism, because of this fucking world that we live in, friendship is a luxury.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: It really feels like a luxury that not everybody is afforded for whatever reason.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: I tell people oftentimes, you gotta be very weird to be healthy.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: You have to go against the grain.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: You have to go against the grain.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you gotta be you gotta be seen as a weirdo.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: We'll leave you with this closing question.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do your current friendships reflect who you are now or who you used to be?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Take it away, Chad.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks for joining us for another episode of Browing Paints.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Feel free to tune in for our next one as we continue on this identity journey and this identity of learning to accept our own mortality and limitations.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Something that your boy Chad is still very uncomfortable with to this day.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, same.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a part of our identity of being human and having to accept that.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um I think it'd be really cool to unpack and just not be afraid to talk about it.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, look forward to you guys joining us.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for hanging with us for another episode of Browing Pains.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: If this episode shifted your perspective at all, don't just keep it to yourself.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Pass it on.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Follow us on TikTok and Instagram at GrowingPains to stay tapped in with the community.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if you've got a story, question, or a hot take you want us to unpack, slide into our inbox at growingpainespod at gmail.com.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love to hear from you.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: You mad, bruh.