Latest / Missions & Miles | Mission Trips, Group Travel, Missionary Stories, Travel Tips / Mission Work in Zambia: Cultural Humility & Travel Tips | Steven Grabiner
Transcript
- Joy Owens: Welcome to Missions and Miles, the podcast for mission leaders, first-time travelers, and anyone who feels the need to go and serve. In each episode, we'll sit down with people who have said yes to serving, like pastors, group leaders, and missionaries, and we'll hear their stories from the field. But we're not going to stop there. We're going to dig too into the practical side of what to pack, to plan, and what no one tells you about getting there. Because getting there is part of the calling too. I'm your host, Joy, and this is Missions and Miles. Hello and welcome to Missions and Miles. I'm your host Joy. Today on the show I have the privilege of speaking with Stephen Grabiner He has worked as a pastor. He was the president of OCI and worked there for over 15 years. He also served 10 years in Zambia and has flown over two million miles on Delta. Welcome to the show. steven: Thanks very much Joy Owens: Would you steven: for having me. At two million miles, that's a lot of time in an aeroplane. Joy Owens: It is a lot of time in the airplane for sure. Would you introduce yourself and share a little background of how you got into mission work? steven: sure. first in my background, I'm married and have three wonderful adult children. my first interest to get into mission work was connected with my my conversion experience. I was introduced to Christ in my early 20s and immediately had a desire to serve and to share what I was learning. And that That manifested in a number of different ways. I worked in a restaurant in New York City and in Boston, both feeding people, but also giving health lectures and different talks. And that's actually connected to how we ended up going overseas. When I was doing a stress class in New York City, I was preparing for it. And one of the questions we asked people. During that stress class, is envision yourself at the end of your life and think, what do you want to have look back on? What would your life trajectory like to be? What would you like it to be? And later that week, or actually the next week, one of our regulars came in. We worked near the Wall Street area. We worked in the Wall Street area near Wall Street. And one of the regulars came back in. He was a trader, a stockbroker. And I hadn't seen him for about a week and he looked refreshed. He lost weight. He was tan. I'm like, you know, so what happened to you? And he said, Well, I I went home after the stress class and I did what you told me. And I decided I did not want to keep coming into New York City every day. So I moved my office out north of New York City, about 30 miles in the country, quote. And he was thrilled. So I decided, I really need to do this. And so I thought about it. And one of the things that became very important to me was I wanted to give my children an opportunity to grow up in a different country. That was like one of my primary aims in life. And so when the opportunity came, someone asked me if I would move to Zambia and help in a mission project there. It completely dovetailed with what I already had thought would be important to me in my life. And so we said yes. Joy Owens: And what were you asked to do when you moved to Zambia? What were you called there for? steven: So the place that we ended up is a beautiful farm, beautiful mission project, an NGO, non-government organization on the banks of the Kafui River, and it's called Riverside Farm. And I was asked to come and help in the outreach and ministry part of the organization. The person that asked me, a good friend by the name of Andy, he had been there. the previous director had left. And so they wanted someone else to come help them and he invited me to come. Joy Owens: And so I'm how many children did you have at the time? steven: We had three, older daughter, who was let's see if I can remember, right in the teenage, thirteen or fourteen, and then her younger brother by two years, and then we had our youngest child, Jeremy, who was just about three at the time. And it was a it was a big thing, particularly you know, it was a one of those transition points for the the daughter. The two boys had a great time in doing it. Everybody had a great time eventually. Joy Owens: Hmm. I so you spent a number of years there as a long term missionary. How did your view of successful mission work change compared to like maybe what you thought it would look like what before you got there? steven: Yeah, so many different levels. first of all, where we were, when people think mission work, and there are I have friends who are involved in mission work and they're very frontline. their housing is difficult, their fruit is difficult. That wasn't the situation with us. Riverside is a very beautiful place right along the Kafui River, and we grew bananas and the property was Think it's 1400 hectares, large farm, very, really, very nice place, comfortable place. but there was still a learning curve. And you know, you come and you want to give. And so there are ways that you think would be best to help people in a different culture. And one of the things it really took took me a a number of months, six months, maybe a year to realize is that you have to help people the way they want to be helped. Joy Owens: Mm-hmm. steven: Sometimes you have to help people, they don't see it, but there was a lot of aid that we did, aid work that we worked with. There was a drought in sub-Saharan Africa. And so we delivered food, but some of the aid work turned out to me for me to be less beneficial. So for example, malaria is a big issue. Joy Owens: Mm-hmm. steven: And was larger issue when we moved there. And so we worked with an organization that distributed mosquito nets. So it sounds like it's a wonderful idea, distribute mosquito nets, prevent malaria, except the people would use the mosquito nets and they would use it for fishing, which then negatively impacted those individuals that made their living by making fishing nets. And so there's I learned that there can be a negative side to aid. I read a book called Dead Aid, which really was a big expose about how a lot of aid work can be counterproductive. Now, don't misunderstand me. There is aid that is helpful and effective. You have a drought, you need to feed people, emergency aid is really important. But a lot of what was done was kind of more feel-good. So that was one aspect. The other aspect for me was you know, just learning how important certain cultural habits are in local situations and how to disturb those habits as little as possible as long as they were harming causing harm. Joy Owens: I've actually also read about the mosquito nets near, I think in Lake Tanganika, where it actually decreased the amount of fish because they were trying to use them as fishing nets and it poisoned the water. steven: really? No, I hadn't heard that. Because of the coating on top of the nets. Joy Owens: So yeah. Because of the coating on top of the nets. So yeah, so we can definitely think that we're steven: Yeah. Right. So it's like that poison to keep the mosquitoes away. So that that's a great example of a bad byproduct. Joy Owens: Yeah. steven: Rather than going in and like, okay, so what would really be helpful? you know, kind of come in with, okay, I'm the American, I'm somewhat educated, I know what needs to be done here. Rather than worry, well, what would really be the best way to help people? Joy Owens: Yeah. Mm-hmm. For sure. And so you're talking about that cultural differences, what conflicts did you experience that were based on cultural differences and how did you overcome them? steven: Well, that assumes that I overcame them, which that's generous of you. Joy Owens: Or maybe you steven: so Joy Owens: didn't. steven: well, one of the major things that I remember real clear, the really strong cultural importance in in Zambia is is being kind to people and helping people save face, being nice to people, not Gilling, not getting angry. That's a really high cultural priority. Being honest, at least when we were there with some of the workers that I engaged with, honesty was less of a cultural imperative. And so that was really frustrating for me to work with people. Joy Owens: and you mean like asking someone and they tell you the truth or asking someone and they just tell you what they think you want to hear? steven: Yeah, the latter. They'll, you know, rather than telling you the truth, they'll tell you something. Or to try to tell you the truth, you have to go around this long way to get to the truth. And I was more than I am so now. like, just tell me, just be abrupt, just you know, be direct. that I've been told that on many occasions by many of my good friends. That's one of my number one flaws is my directness, strength and flaw. so That was really frustrating for me. I just have people in my office. There's a guy I remember one time working and he had a count fertilizer and there was fertilizer missing. And so I called him into the office and he's just sitting there, you know, like almost in tears. How could you think I would steal fertilizer? You know, and he's just so emotional about it. And I'm beginning to feel like I'm so terrible. I thought you were stealing fertilizer. And then a little a police car drove up. For a completely unrelated reason. And I said, Well, the police are here now. Are you gonna tell me the truth or not? And he just opened right up. He told me what was going on and who was stealing fertilizer. and again, the police were not there to talk to me, they were there to talk to somebody else. So it was that kind of a thing was hard for me. And and so that's my difficulty with their culture, their difficulty with my culture was how. straightforward I was. And I had a very good helper. He was a farm manager. He kind of became my right hand person in relating to people. His name was Francis. And, you know, he could be direct with me. And he says, look, you're just going to lose everybody on this campus unless you change. And it's like, really? And so that was kind of a wake-up call to me. Was okay, it's not just their cultural issues, it's my habits and cultural issues as well. And for a long time I would just let him deal with people and he would sort things out and and we would be happy. And there's green and and eventually I began to have a greater appreciation for the kindness and softness aspect as well. Joy Owens: Yeah, definitely figuring out how to work with those cultures and in order to keep that mission going is it's definitely important and it's glad good steven: You know? Joy Owens: that you had someone on the there to help mediate between you and the and the locals. steven: Yeah, it was tremendously important. Somebody to show me the ropes. And like I remember one time someone came to my office. she was a seamstress for us for for quite some quite a long time. She came to the house, if I remember, and she sat down, we were talking, And in my mind, I'm like, okay, this is one of those you have to talk. Around the topic before you can get to the topic. And so I tried to calm down and let her talk. And she was talking and talking and talking, like 25 minutes, she was talking. And then she says, Well, it was real nice visiting with you. And she got up and she left. And she didn't really want anything Joy Owens: Ha ha ha. steven: at all. She just wanted to talk. And it's like, you just missed this whole opportunity just to hang out and talk to somebody. Cause I was thinking, okay, is there a purpose here? Joy Owens: You're like, what does she want from me? That's your you you were trying to steven: okay, is there a purpose here? Joy Owens: figure out the end game. steven: Exactly. That is that's entirely what I was thinking. What a what a loss, you know, a frame in my cultural thinking. Joy Owens: So just shifting a little bit, you've dealt with several health problems while you were abroad and even currently. How do those impact your ability to serve? steven: I did have certain health problems. how did they impact my ability to serve? Well, so one of the the greatest difficulty that I had being in Africa was getting an accurate diagnosis as to what was going on. so I had a a long-term liver disease and it impacted me. I, you know, I would get these pains, and it masqueraded as other. kinds of disease, like somebody thought it was ulcers or different things like that. So for me, the hardest part of it was I couldn't figure out what was going on. And I would, just get these pain and tiredness symptoms. And How did I manage it? I just pushed through. So, for example, one time I was in western Zambia, which is fairly remote, very remote, with a group of Zambians. We were doing some outreach in this particular town. And we were staying in tents out in this very rural, rural area. And in the middle of these public meetings that I was doing, sharing health and Bible topics, different things like that. I would I just had the most intense pains, thinking it was an ulcer or something like that, where actually it was an inflamed gallbladder due to my liver problem. And it just I just was speaking up front, a couple of hundred people there, and I just kept speaking, put my hand over the bottom right. Quadrant of my abdomen and just put my hand there and kept talking and talking and then went back and collapsed. So it it made it hard to continue doing things, but I was stubborn enough to try to keep pushing through where Joy Owens: Ha ha ha. steven: I probably should have been a bit more like, you really need to get this chicked out. And it was only later on coming back to the United States and That I ultimately found out what was going on. Joy Owens: How long it from when you first were having these pains till you actually figured out what was going on? steven: too long. So we moved back to United States in 2006. And when we moved back, I had that big flare-up again. And I went to the doctor and they said, man, your gallbladder needs to come out. And I refused. And I waited a couple of weeks and then it really flared up. And so then I said, okay. And so that was 2026. and I think the pains had started. three years before that, like on an on and off basis. I know for sure it was at least a year and a half before that, because I was visited a sister ministry project in in Norway. And when I was there, they did a blood panel on me. And I noticed afterwards that my liver enzymes were highly were elevated, which is a byproduct of the disease that I had. Joy Owens: So so you manage through, you powered through several years of these painful flare ups. steven: I don't recommend it to anybody. I like so let me make a point of that if I can. I not that long ago, I was in Colombia doing some leadership training with a group of people. And during my time there, I shared what had happened with my liver and so on and so forth. And the last day, the wife of the leader of the NGO there, another mission project there. She came up to me in Spanish and but she typed on her phone, I need to talk to you. So we went out of the arena where we were at, and she told me through an interpreter that her husband has had been has had been having liver pain, but hasn't been doing anything about it. So I called him over and I, you know, please for me, don't do what I did, get it checked out. so I, you know, if anybody's listening. Go to a doctor, find out what it is. Diagnosis is the most important thing. And if it's nothing, great. Joy Owens: That I I would say probably there are many stories of missionaries who are ignoring health problems because they can't necessarily get treatment and they feel the mission work is or maybe they don't even have funds to go to see a professional. steven: Yeah, that so that can be a problem. can you know, in my situation in Zambia, there really wasn't a qualified heptologist which would have identified what I was doing in Mars circumstance. Joy Owens: This episode is brought to you by Butler Travel. For over 30 years, Butler Travel has helped churches, schools, and groups plan mission and humanitarian trips. They handle the flights and logistics so you can focus on your mission. And if you are planning a mission trip, Butler Travel has a free tool that can help you figure out your budget and gives you ideas for fundraising. Check out this tool at ButlerTravel.com forward slash tools. Now back to the episode. So shifting to travel a little bit. You've spent a great deal of time on an airplane, seeing you have over two million miles flown on Delta. What tips do you have to making any flight more comfortable? steven: Well, the best way is to finagle a business class ticket. I'm sure butler travel, you could organize that for people, right? so you know, aside from the business class ticket, which does make it more comfortable, figure out what seat you like. So like my two sons both like window seats. That's what they're they go for there. I'm an aisle person. my wife is an aisle person, so when we book seats, we book aisles across from each other. we both like to get up and and walk around. And so know how you like to travel. So that obviously is is most important. Take the time to think about where you're gonna sit and spend a little bit more to be able to choose your seat. or Fly enough so that you have the privilege of choosing your seat. Somehow have the ability to choose your seat. a little while there, I would take melatonin on a plane. I'm sure comfort things is important before I go to the melatonin. You know, a nice eye shades for me is real helpful. have sound canceling headphones that are noise canceling headphones that I'd like better help me as well. And then some again, melatonin at different times. A long time ago, I used to had a friend that would prescribe something to help you sleep on the plane. And that had been helpful. I don't use that very much. Haven't used it really for years simply because I I don't like the side effects. So for me, you know, nowhere you want to sit. Pay a little bit extra to sit where you want to sit and make sure you have those things that are gonna make you comfortable. I have a good friend that doesn't travel anywhere without her pillow, takes it every place. And you know, that helps not just on the plane, but it also helps when you're when you arrive somewhere, making sure for that. For me, the eye mask is really important and the ability to block out noise. Joy Owens: Well definitely I agree with if you can afford or finding goal business class trip seat, your trip will definitely be more comfortable. I I am a window seat person and I do like to have a pillow because I I feel like they don't necessarily sometimes you don't get a pillow or sometimes just little pills. So I like to have several pillows so I can lean against the window. since you have steven: So you're you're a window person as well. Joy Owens: I'm a w I'm a window person as well. So I hate to have to move. Like if you're an aisle person and someone has to get up, then you have to always get up, which is annoying, especially if you're just trying to sleep. So, that's a personality thing. steven: So that's a personality thing. Some of us, yeah, well, I think so. Because some of us don't mind saying, excuse me, and waking up the person in the middle and the aisle to get out. And others of us don't like bothering people, and we just want the freedom to get up. so that's that's that's the issue there. Joy Owens: And you don't mind being bothered. steven: Yeah, we don't mind being bothered because we can have the freedom of of getting up when we want. Joy Owens: Alright, so have you had any experiences where things have not gone well on your flights, on your trip, on your travel? It doesn't have to be a flight, it could be any sort of travel. And what happened and what did you do? steven: yeah, I've had several experiences where flight we missed flights, trips that went awry. Most of my trips have gone pretty well. That's pretty amazing. Thing I mean, there have been times where I was stranded in an airport due to delayed flights. For longer than I would want. Oftentimes when we would fly back from Zambia, we would fly through London at that time. British Airways was real big from Zambia, stopping London and then back to the States. I'm a fairly flexible personality, again, in some aspects, some aspects not. But I guess I guess the biggest thing for me would be. Yeah, just to be able to take a breath and say, okay, this is gonna work out in some fashion. There's there's always an issue. We begin to get stressed, and then the more we begin to get stressed, the more stressed we get, and then we are stressed that we're stressed, and then we just get in this cycle, and none of that's gonna change what's going on. But I have an interesting story about that. my wife, Vivian, I were flying back from Zambia, and she likes to be at the airport way early. And this particular day, the driver was late, person that was going to take us to the airport. And the person was late. And then once they got to us, they had to stop at their house to get their passport. And they were a particularly slow and careful driver. And actually, the driver said, Hey, do you want to drive? Because he knows I'm not a particularly slow driver. But Vivian was like, No, no, no, let him drive, let him drive. Like, okay. So he was late, he had to get his passport. He was Joy Owens: Was he flying too? Why did he have to get his passport? steven: Yeah, he has a driver's license, sorry, not passport, driver's license identification, thank you. and and so she was getting really, really anxious. So we were at the airport, we got there, we had plenty of time, and so we're talking about it, like, hey, things happen. Getting stressed isn't gonna be any good at all. Fine. So we fly from Lusaka in Zambia down to to Johannesburg, and we had to catch our next flight. We had a little couple of hour window, four hour window, three hour window. And so, you know, she wanted to walk around the airport and I was sitting down someplace, and all of a sudden she texts me and she says, our flight is canceled. And I'm like, what? And I had finagled a business class seat. and I had used an upgrade certificate that had cleared. And I was like, what do you mean? And then she says, no, no, it's all okay. And so then I went and I looked on on my app and it they had scheduled me for the next day. What happened was they thought our flight that evening was going to be canceled. And so they sent out this notification. And because I have status, they booked me automatically on another flight. Vivian doesn't have quite the same status, so they kept her on the same flight. And then they realized the flight was going, and so she was fine. She had her seat. my seat was removed. my first class, business class seat was removed. So I got so stressed. You know, everything I'd been saying to Vivian, hey, just calm down. You can't control it anyway. Just went right out the window. And so I was on the phone to Delta and you know, the it was a very long, stressful couple of hours. At the end of the day, I got my seat back and she got upgraded as well. So in the Joy Owens: Ha ha ha. steven: end it worked out. Good for both of us. But really, Joy Owens: It pays a flown. steven: you can't, you know, you can control what you control, control that. But don't worry about what can't control. Joy Owens: I guess it pays to have flown two million miles on Delta. steven: Yes. That's a lot of time in an airplane. That's all I can say. Joy Owens: Okay, so to It is a lot of time in the airplane. We're gonna close with just some rapid steven: Okay. Joy Owens: fire questions. So one item you never travel without. steven: my passport. Joy Owens: Favorite airport? steven: ouch. but Chattanooga 'cause it's small and it's easy. You know, if I have to be stuck someplace Amsterdam. Joy Owens: Okay. do you take snacks or do you just eat the plane airplane food? steven: currently I take snacks. For years I would never take any food with me when I traveled and I really wouldn't eat on the plane. I figured I would eat when I got there. I changed that now. Now I take snacks. Joy Owens: All right, lastly, what is one thing you like to share for someone who's thinking about taking a mission trip or moving to the mission field? steven: So if you're thinking of moving to the mission field, I a hundred percent think you should do that. You need to figure out why you want to do that. If you're running away from something, that's not going to help anything. But if you're you know a committed Christian and you you've seen a need someplace and you want to get involved, fantastic. It I think it's a it's a great decision. I even recommend it with children. It's just a good life experience all the way around, put in a different culture and helping people in a different way is tremendous. it it really comes back to you multiple amounts of time. If you're thinking of going on a mission trip, like a lot of times a lot of young adults think of going on mission trips. I think you should go, but I think you should be really careful about what your motivation is. Think of the mission trip for you more than for where you're going. It's going to be, okay, this is going to be a learning experience for me. How am I going to interact in this different culture? How am I going to deal with my own discomforts? And so I would encourage young adults to, you know, whatever age really to go on a mission trip, but Google to go on it with the view, this is going to be a learning experience for me. Joy Owens: Awesome. Thanks. Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much for joining us. And just to close out, where can our listeners find you? steven: I'm on Instagram, Steven Grabener. I'm on X, same thing, and Facebook as well. I have a website, Percepta.coach. do leadership coaching, so percepta.coach. Feel free to reach out anytime. Joy Owens: And we'll have those linked in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us. steven: My privilege. My privilege. I really appreciate Butler Trout. Joy Owens: That's it for this episode of Missions and Miles. If this conversation encouraged you, do us a favor and hit subscribe. You don't want to miss what's coming. And if you know someone planning their first mission trip or just love mission stories, send this episode their way. If you're getting ready to plan a trip of your own and need help with those tickets, head to butlertravel.com. We'd love to help you. Until next time, go and serve well.