Latest / The Inspired Stories Podcast / Transforming Early Stage Investment: Jonathan Wallace's Expert Dojo Innovation

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Transforming Early Stage Investment: Jonathan Wallace's Expert Dojo Innovation · The Inspired Stories Podcast

• 0:04
  Welcome to another edition of the Inspired Stories podcast,
• 0:08
  where leaders share their experiences so we can learn from
• 0:11
  their successes and be inspired by how they've overcome
• 0:14
  adversity. My name is Anthony Kotaspodi and
• 0:17
  today's guest is Jonathan Wallace, Partner and Expert
• 0:20
  Dojo, the most active international early stage
• 0:24
  startup accelerator in Southern California.
• 0:27
  They invest up to $100,000 in each startup to help them gain
• 0:31
  traction and scale quickly. Focusing on pre, seed and seed
• 0:36
  stage companies, Expert Dojo supports passion driven founders
• 0:40
  including many from minority and female LED backgrounds.
• 0:45
  Since 2018, they have invested in over 300 startups worldwide.
• 0:50
  They also plan to commit $45,000,000 to global startups
• 0:54
  by fiscal year 2028. As partner, Jonathan sources
• 0:59
  companies for their program, conducts due diligence and
• 1:02
  manages follow on investments, leveraging a vast network of
• 1:06
  influential investors. He has played a key role in
• 1:09
  Expert Dojo's growth since joining the team in 2013.
• 1:14
  Over the years, he has contributed to more than 260
• 1:17
  investments across diverse industries, strengthening Expert
• 1:20
  Dojo's presence globally. Now, before we get into all that
• 1:23
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  To find out if your company qualifies, contact us today at
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  AD back benefits.com. All right, back to our guest
• 2:04
  today, Jonathan Wallace from Expert Dojo.
• 2:07
  I appreciate you making the time to Share your story today.
• 2:10
  Yeah, thank you for having me. Really excited to share some fun
• 2:12
  stuff here. So I referenced in the intro
• 2:15
  that you joined the team in 2013, but you're one of the
• 2:18
  founders of the team, is that correct?
• 2:21
  So I'm on the founding team, I would say on that.
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  So I would say Brian is the one whose inspiration really drove
• 2:26
  this. But I was with him in the very
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  beginning and I've been on the founding team.
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  So yeah, we've, I've known Brian since 2013.
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  It really formed over that time. So from 2013, 18 to 18, it was
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  more of just finding what we could do together, where that
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  actually what that actually meant, and then really
• 2:41
  officially launched it in 2018-2019 and have been leaking
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  that sort of things ever since. So yeah, on the founding team,
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  I've been here since the very beginning, leading the
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  investment side for Ryan here. OK, so let's rewind a little bit
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  because I want to give people a bit of your background, what you
• 2:56
  were doing before you and Brian connected and created Expert
• 3:00
  Dojo. Give us a little bit of sort of
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  the playground that you were running.
• 3:05
  Yeah. Yeah.
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  So, so my whole background comes in the startup world.
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  So I think when you're working with VCR, you either get people
• 3:11
  who went through investment banking or in startup.
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  I came from the startup side of things.
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  So had a company back in 2012 that I was working for a few
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  years through that got really involved in just the venture
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  ecosystem because obviously I needed different things, whether
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  it'd be fundraising, whether it be the sales side of things.
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  So really leaned heavily into the network that we had.
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  There. What was the nature of your
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  startup, Jonathan? It was in the real estate
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  technology business. So that's how I get connected
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  with Brian too, is his background comes from that
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  space. There's a lot of synergies
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  between the two of us. He had just moved to Lai, was
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  operating out of Los Angeles as well, so got connected there too
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  and really got got to know that network there and relied it
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  really heavily on what they were doing there too.
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  Yeah, I worked with that company for four or five years.
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  Eventually Brian was getting involved in the fund.
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  I had obviously built up a lot of investor connections working
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  with just the VCs that I had met primarily in the Bay Area in Los
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  Angeles. Got to know that side of things
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  too on the LP side of things. So I was able to help raise that
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  fund through that. But really, it was all through
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  the startup side of things too. So I tend to come into most
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  startup conversations with a little more empathy than most
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  VCs are. I know how difficult it is to be
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  pitching to VCs day after day and being told your baby's ugly
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  and that it's never going to work and that you're stupid for
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  trying. And it's tough.
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  And I, and obviously part of my job is telling companies no.
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  I try to be helpful where I can. Yeah, it's, it's, I think coming
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  into it from the startup perspective because it gives you
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  a lot of ideas of what they're going through on a day-to-day
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  basis. So I use a lot of that
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  experience with my own company, with how we were doing things
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  before, just with the companies that Brian had operated before
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  and just the rest of our team, almost everyone, our team here
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  has had their own startup to varying levels of success, but
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  they know how it is to actually be an operator and.
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  Been there, you've done that. You understand the the battle
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  pains that go along with it. Yeah, it's not easy.
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  Yeah, there's a lot, a lot of sleepless nights.
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  You're constantly emailing, you're constantly selling people
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  and what you're doing, telling them why your company is going
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  to be the one that breaks through and being told that
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  you're wrong. So it's it's, it's tough process
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  and there's obviously a lot of companies that do fail, but it's
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  really breaking through a lot of those things that gets you there
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  and gets you to the next level of success in these companies.
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  OK. So you and Brian met back in
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  2013. You were both working kind of in
• 5:27
  the real estate space. He was at a large company.
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  You were doing real estate tech. Something between the two of you
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  clicked, and you're like, hey, we need to work together on
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  something. But it kind of took a little bit
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  for that to sort of shake itself out, right?
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  And he had, Brian has a great network.
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  Brian's just extremely personable guy just knows
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  everybody so, so quickly. So he he is, he had a great
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  network in LA and obviously was just was trying to get involved
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  in more of this side of things too.
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  I've been working with startups and basically wanted to, we know
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  so many startups, we see so many great founders.
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  We should be investing in these companies and doing something
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  with and beyond just helping them out and making referrals
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  and doing different things and working with them.
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  So it really just came from like, why are we not getting
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  involved in this? And we know we have the great
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  startup community that we can invest into personally.
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  From there, it's spun into something so much bigger now
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  where now we're global, you'll see things in every continent.
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  We've done things and I think like 70 countries so, so it's
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  obviously expanded much bigger than what we had in the
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  beginning, but it was really just through that network
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  effect, through helping startups.
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  The mission never changed. It was always during helping
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  early stage entrepreneurs who didn't really feel like they had
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  support systems. And that's why a lot of what we
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  see on our website, a lot of what we do online is just
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  helping startups and trying to provide a resource for them.
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  Obviously from the investor perspective, it's different.
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  We can't invest in every company, but we can try and do
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  something and that's what we really want to do.
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  So it's it's really grown from that mission of helping
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  entrepreneurs who don't have money, who don't have things
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  that they can, that VCs typically look for that who
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  don't have resources to pay other people too.
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  So it's really driven from that network.
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  And now we're able to invest in the companies who are doing
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  well, who are following those steps to become a good company
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  and really double down on that as well.
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  When you're making that initial investment in these companies,
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  are you typically the first investment that they're getting?
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  It varies. Usually they've raised friends
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  and family or something like that.
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  Usually we usually come in right as products are going live.
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  So if a company can do that, they have ACTO in house and
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  they're able to build and they're able to get something in
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  place, we can get involved before as the first investor.
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  That's not a problem for us. I would say most companies have
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  raised 1 to $200,000 typically through friends and family,
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  maybe some Angel investors, whatever it may be.
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  We tend to be one of the first institutional checks into them.
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  It's we're not, we don't have to be by any means, but that's just
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  tends to be where we get involved.
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  We're very, we get involved very early precede primarily, but we
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  can play with things quite a bit.
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  We try to be a lot more flexible than most investors in that
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  stage. So we have some options there.
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  But yeah, as a products going live, really helping that go to
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  market, optimizing that growth in the business and really
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  getting involved in having them scale past Series A.
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  What are you looking at in terms of, say, industry?
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  What's kind of your fit to your sweet spot?
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  Yeah, We're agnostic as a whole. We'll take a look at almost
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  anything. I think it comes down to us for
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  more on the growth side, like if we think we can add value,
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  whether it be through our immediate LP's, through other
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  companies we've invested in, that's where we want to get
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  involved. The great thing about just the
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  amount of companies we've invested in is somebody knows
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  somebody in our portfolio, you know, like if you're trying to
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  get in front of a customer, somebody in our portfolio has
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  sold to that customer before. Somebody there knows somebody
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  there who can make that introduction.
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  So just through the amount of companies we've invested in, we
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  have such a massive network of enterprise sales.
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  We have a lot of different things that you can see.
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  How do you go to market, how do you do different things on the
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  CPG side of things? How do you do things with
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  enterprise clients? So we we have experience with so
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  many companies. It's really seen, we can see
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  what works and what hasn't worked can really help companies
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  formulate that go to market from there as well.
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  So it just depends what what they want to do and how they
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  want to approach it. But we're agnostic as a whole
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  and if we think we can add value, then we want to get
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  involved company. So when you talk about adding
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  value, it's more than just the dollars that you can bring to
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  the table. I mean, you, you mentioned that,
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  you know, you've invested in a few 100 companies.
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  You know, there's going to be somebody in your network that
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  you know is likely to help them. Is that sort of one of the boxes
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  that you're looking to check is do we have the network to be
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  able to open doors for this company?
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  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so we we are, we just
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  finished our fund too, which we just, we're closing that out.
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  It's June right now. We're going to be closing that
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  out over the next month. We're launching our fund 3,
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  which we currently have, most of it already, already finalized
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  there too. Most of the people in that one
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  are celebrities, athletes and influencers.
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  So we have a lot of things on the enterprise side of things.
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  We wanted to really work more like brand ambassadors and
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  people who could help on that marketing side of things and do
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  it in a way that's sustainable. I think a lot of companies,
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  especially at Precede and Seed, they go to things like
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  influencer marketing and they find out very quickly they're
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  going to get priced out or their cost, the cost, the user
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  acquisition costs are going to be tough.
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  So a lot of what we're doing is trying to breakdown those
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  barriers for early stage companies, connect them with the
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  right brand ambassador, somebody who's passionate about what
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  they're building and really help that as well.
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  So it's just where our fund has evolved to now where we don't,
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  we don't necessarily need the connections on the enterprise
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  side because we have a lot of those already.
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  And if you're building a strong product that provides value, we
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  can we can open those doors. So now we're expanding into
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  different, different avenues of this and really helping with
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  that side of things. So these would be more consumer
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  products for fund three, since you're talking about influencers
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  and so liberties. Not necessarily.
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  There's a lot of different ways people can get involved.
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  So like we have a company that we have a couple of X NFL
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  players are involved in. It's a logistics company, but
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  what they've done growing is they've worked with like
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  different brands that athletes other people may own and they're
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  selling to those people as well. So it's not even that they're
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  coming in as an ambassador. They're just making direct
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  introductions because they know they can add value.
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  So the thesis behind the companies we're investing into
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  is not going to change, but how we add value to them will.
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  If we have those companies who can still really benefit from
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  those enterprise connections, We already have all those.
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  And they may not necessarily care about the athlete
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  influencer side as much, but we want to make sure that we can
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  leverage both sides of that network as well.
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  So it's not changing the model, it's just adding on to it more
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  than anything. And so we've talked so far about
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  sort of that early stage investment that you guys make
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  50, maybe $100,000, kind of get them going, make some
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  introductions. Is there operational support
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  that goes along with that or it, you know, it kind of that early
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  stage are they you know sort of more operating on their own to
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  prove themselves out? Yeah, Operationally it tends to
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  be they're running a lot of that.
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  Primarily we, we, we want to get involved more on the growth side
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  of things. So more on the sales side,
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  helping them with the go to market, putting the other
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  campaigns that they can do something sustainable.
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  We don't encourage them to spend all their money in a few months
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  and hopefully it works out. It's around building long term
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  growth and setting milestones that are attainable day-to-day.
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  Their operations are still going to be their own.
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  I mean, it's the downside of having 300 companies is
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  legitimately we couldn't, we couldn't manage that kind of
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  thing with 300 companies, but we want to add value where we can.
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  I would say with that portfolio, it always comes in waves of how
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  often companies are working with us and it tends to be centered
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  around two things, that's sales and investment.
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  So usually it's like they're trying to get in front of
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  customers, they're trying to work on some sort of growth
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  strategy. We come in, we help them
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  optimize that. We do some testing with them and
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  see what's working from there. We help them with the investment
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  side of things. So making direct introductions
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  to our network and making sure they can close.
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  I think a lot of in startups and even investors tend to think
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  that investment fixes everything.
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  I think that's, I think it's other way around.
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  The sales will fix things for most people.
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  If you see if an investor sees a company taking off on sales is
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  growing rapidly and they can put gas in the fire, that's where
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  most investors want to get involved.
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  So rather than just putting you in front of investors and saying
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  hopefully the signs, it's like we're we're doing things to
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  change it and make sure that when you do get in the room,
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  they're pitching to get you and their fund because you're doing
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  so well that you have the leverage in those conversations.
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  So as a previous founder with the company like you can, it
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  changes that conversation when you have sales, when you have
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  leverage in those, it makes it a lot easier and you don't have to
• 13:37
  be begging for investment that's bad.
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  But like you, it's, it's puts you in position of of leverage
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  and it really makes that conversation a lot easier.
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  And it doesn't waste your time just to be in there with 50
• 13:47
  investors and hopefully one of them signs, whereas you know
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  they're going to be coming in because you fit the criteria
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  they're looking for and you're growing rapidly.
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  So if you have invested, you know, early stage in a startup
• 13:59
  that is now starting to get some traction and they're in sort of
• 14:03
  that spot that you're talking about where like they're getting
• 14:05
  sales, I've got some momentum. Do you guys ever make follow on
• 14:08
  investments or you kind of stick to just that sort of precede,
• 14:12
  you know early stage investment? Yeah.
• 14:14
  Our model is built around investing in follow on rounds.
• 14:18
  So the small checks are how we get involved with the company.
• 14:20
  We want to demonstrate value, we want to we want to make sure
• 14:23
  we're investing in something and then showing them this is what
• 14:25
  we can do. This is how we can add value
• 14:27
  beyond the capital. But our model is built around we
• 14:29
  need to be investing in larger state, larger stage companies.
• 14:33
  So we know the company, we have three years of two years of
• 14:35
  diligence we're doing with those companies.
• 14:36
  So while we're working with them, we can see what's working.
• 14:39
  We can see, okay, if we continue to invest in this company, we
• 14:42
  can all really win here together.
• 14:44
  So yeah, we want to get involved past Series A is where we'll get
• 14:47
  priced out typically. So we almost always invest in
• 14:49
  our companies who are raising at Series A rounds, whether that be
• 14:52
  just retaining pro rata, whether that be just investing
• 14:54
  separately. We've we've LED Series A rounds
• 14:57
  just depends on how they're structuring it or if they if
• 15:00
  they want us to be a lead, typically they'll pull on a
• 15:02
  couple other big VCs that they want to be involved in the round
• 15:05
  who come in as value adds as well.
• 15:07
  But yeah, absolutely that's what we want to do.
• 15:09
  Our whole models, we deploy the small checks, be with the
• 15:11
  companies, invest in our winners, really double down
• 15:13
  there and continue to be with them on this journey and invest
• 15:16
  much more later on. Can we pick a particular
• 15:20
  portfolio company that's kind of gone through this life cycle
• 15:22
  with you, You know, early stage investment, they got some
• 15:25
  traction you didn't follow on investment and now they're
• 15:27
  continuing to do well. Yeah, we, we have several.
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  So I component to this week we, we had a company we invested in
• 15:35
  credit, which is a company I found out of Africa.
• 15:38
  They were early stage and we invested.
• 15:40
  I think they had just launched the revenue side of the company.
• 15:44
  They've just exploded over that time.
• 15:46
  So some big VCs are involved in that company now too.
• 15:49
  What does that company do? They're a fintech company based
• 15:51
  out of Africa, so it's almost like building a credit system in
• 15:54
  Africa where they may not necessarily have the best
• 15:56
  banking records. They track things through a
• 15:58
  blockchain Ledger and are able to see what your transaction
• 16:02
  history looks like. They're able to monitor
• 16:03
  everything and then basically use that information to help
• 16:06
  help the consumer as well. So they've done really well.
• 16:09
  That's the most recent one we've done as far as a later stage
• 16:12
  check. And then we have companies like
• 16:15
  Link, which was Shopping Pal and when we invested in there, we
• 16:19
  end up just doing a smaller check with that company because
• 16:21
  they had already closed most of the round and we just want to do
• 16:23
  something smaller there. So we did a $500,000 check with
• 16:26
  that one as part of their next round.
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  They have some other great investors involved in that round
• 16:31
  as well, like Mucker and a few other ones.
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  And they're more on the logistics side within, sorry
• 16:37
  that, but they're in the food and beverage space too.
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  They were initially based out of India.
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  Now they're in the US though. So like it was we have, we have
• 16:45
  probably 20 or so investments in that on that side of things that
• 16:47
  have been larger checks. But it's really just seeing what
• 16:51
  we can do beyond that, what who's really doing well quickly
• 16:54
  and doubling down on those investments.
• 16:55
  And almost all those rounds are with other investors at that
• 16:59
  time, too. Do you have any companies that
• 17:02
  are getting close to maybe a potential exit scenario?
• 17:07
  Yes. So it's kind of a funny thing.
• 17:10
  So most of our investments have come since 2020 like we were.
• 17:13
  We've been active before. That so not enough time for a
• 17:16
  lot of these to kind of get to that.
• 17:17
  Point yet. Yeah, exactly.
• 17:18
  So the when we have an acquisition 2 years in, it's not
• 17:23
  like a super exciting acquisition typically.
• 17:25
  It's usually like maybe we made one next 2X of our money,
• 17:28
  whatever it is. So the big ones like the ones
• 17:31
  that I just mentioned, the ones that are exciting, those are
• 17:35
  they look really good for us. They put they make us look
• 17:37
  really good on the AUM, things like that.
• 17:39
  Realistically, there's still 5-6 years with a lot of those
• 17:43
  companies before they can really show us something.
• 17:45
  And the life cycle of acquisitions and IPOs and
• 17:48
  everything now has has moved further and further down the
• 17:51
  road. So our really good ones are
• 17:53
  still a bit are still a bit out, but we've had smaller
• 17:55
  acquisitions, but nothing that we we're going to post globally
• 17:59
  and tell everyone how amazing we are because it didn't really
• 18:01
  it's, it's not going to change the fund.
• 18:03
  Yeah, why so much focus on international companies?
• 18:07
  It seems like it would be easier to kind of wrap your arms around
• 18:12
  what's going on in your own backyard, but you must see some
• 18:16
  kind of strategic value. There definitely so well when
• 18:20
  when we started initially there not this has changed since
• 18:23
  recently, but I used to be the only US born person on our team.
• 18:27
  We now have one other person who's from the US here.
• 18:28
  So I can't say that anymore, but it was really good for us
• 18:31
  because we had access to these that mean markets because we had
• 18:34
  people on the ground there. So like we work with places like
• 18:37
  Nigeria where a lot of investors don't know what's going on over
• 18:40
  there. They don't really know the
• 18:40
  market. And frankly, it just scares
• 18:43
  people that like it's they all that all they know about Nigeria
• 18:46
  is like scam emails they get sometimes.
• 18:47
  And so showing them like there's great founders here that are
• 18:50
  building legitimate businesses that are doing amazing things.
• 18:53
  You just need to know who they are.
• 18:54
  Like it can be a great thing for us too.
• 18:56
  And like as we're doubling down in India, we just opened up a
• 18:58
  physical office there as well. We had, we had a team already
• 19:02
  present there that was really active in the Indian market and
• 19:04
  we really are just formalizing that.
• 19:06
  We do a lot of things in South America.
• 19:09
  I mentioned, I mentioned Nigeria, but we do things all
• 19:11
  over Africa. So you'll see a lot of the
• 19:13
  successes in our portfolio are based in Africa.
• 19:15
  So I mentioned credit, we've got companies like Clasha which are
• 19:18
  doing great over there as well. There's some really exciting
• 19:21
  things are going to. Places where other people aren't
• 19:23
  and so you're finding the deals that other people don't see.
• 19:26
  Yeah. And those deals get found like
• 19:28
  they'll get found eventually, but we get involved early on
• 19:30
  those companies. So we want to be to really help
• 19:33
  bridge that gap in the beginning especially.
• 19:36
  I mean, it's always kind of funny because we most of our
• 19:38
  team is European. We have somebody, Ireland,
• 19:41
  Sweden, just really all over the country continent there, but we
• 19:45
  don't do a ton of deals there because those, those deals
• 19:47
  aren't as hard to find. I think where we do a lot of our
• 19:50
  deals are the places I mentioned, Africa, South
• 19:53
  America, Southeast Asia. So we do a lot of things in
• 19:56
  those markets because some of those deals are hard to find.
• 19:59
  They get overlooked a little bit just because of their
• 20:01
  backgrounds. None of them, most of them
• 20:03
  didn't go to Ivy League schools and go to the big schools in the
• 20:06
  UK like. So finding those people who have
• 20:09
  great backgrounds, who know the space, who are really
• 20:11
  intelligent people who just for one reason or another have been
• 20:14
  overlooked, whether it be just where they're from, whether it
• 20:16
  be race, gender, whatever it may be, but.
• 20:20
  Our portfolio is, is funny like we, we're in some of the, we
• 20:23
  have some of the highest rates of like men to women in our
• 20:25
  portfolio. And it's really about 5050,
• 20:27
  which is actually really good for the VC world.
• 20:31
  But it's in reality it's not, it shouldn't be that high.
• 20:34
  So it's like, I think it's like 45% women, 55% men right now.
• 20:38
  And at this moment in our portfolio, which is, is, it's
• 20:42
  weird to say it's one of the highest ones in VC just because
• 20:44
  you don't see very many that are like purely right down the
• 20:46
  middle like that. And it was that intentional or
• 20:50
  was that something that just kind of happened accidentally?
• 20:54
  Yeah, I would say it just happened like we just found good
• 20:56
  founders and we're just looking for the best founders no matter
• 20:59
  where they're based, no matter what they're with what they're
• 21:01
  doing. We wanted to find the best
• 21:03
  founder. So it's it's really more just
• 21:05
  happened like that. And same thing with just like
• 21:07
  where we invested, like we didn't make a point to say we
• 21:10
  want to invest in companies in Nigeria.
• 21:12
  We just found a lot of good companies that we liked in
• 21:14
  Nigeria and a lot of those founders were like, hey, we want
• 21:17
  to be a more established business.
• 21:18
  We want to help transfer into the US and sell to the US
• 21:21
  market. But nobody's opening our emails,
• 21:23
  nobody's listening to us, nobody's talking to us.
• 21:25
  So what can we do to change that?
• 21:27
  So we want to get involved in markets where we can add value.
• 21:29
  And again, with places like that, it's really we know how to
• 21:32
  help those kind of founders as well.
• 21:33
  So and that that's not necessarily the issue for
• 21:37
  everybody. We invest in a lot of U.S.
• 21:39
  companies. So it's probably 50% US, 50%
• 21:42
  everywhere else. India is probably pretty high in
• 21:44
  that list as well. But if we can, if we think we
• 21:47
  can add, add value to a company, as long as we can legally invest
• 21:50
  there, we we'll try and work with the company anyway we can.
• 21:54
  You guys have invested in hundreds of companies.
• 21:57
  What is it that you're looking for on the founder side of
• 22:02
  things? Are there particular personality
• 22:05
  traits, particular paths of experience that are important to
• 22:09
  you? Yeah, it it depends, I think.
• 22:12
  I mean, obviously the technical side of things is hard in the
• 22:15
  beginning for founders. If you don't have a way to build
• 22:18
  the product in an efficient way, it can be very difficult just to
• 22:21
  start. So if they have technical
• 22:24
  experience, that's a bonus. I tend to find, especially in
• 22:28
  the beginning stages, I don't know, I think this stops to be
• 22:32
  useful around Series A, but people who have sales
• 22:34
  experience, people who are not afraid to call and afraid to be
• 22:37
  messaging people, we see them get pretty far in the beginning.
• 22:41
  Because I think a lot of that initial preceding seed stage is
• 22:44
  just hustle. I think.
• 22:46
  I mean, I think obviously your idea has to be solid and your
• 22:49
  company has to be doing something, but being like ready
• 22:52
  to pick up the phone and just call and just be what do
• 22:54
  whatever it takes to break the doors down.
• 22:56
  There's nothing that can replace that in a founder.
• 22:58
  And I think a lot of founders think they know what that is
• 23:00
  until they act. And then you see founders who
• 23:02
  really know how to do that and it's very different things.
• 23:05
  So it's not sending emails when you wake up in the morning and
• 23:08
  then hoping it hoping they respond.
• 23:09
  It's making sure they're responding to you because
• 23:12
  they're good. They'll find way to make it
• 23:13
  work. So we have founders like they
• 23:14
  have a product launch next month, like, well, I already
• 23:16
  called 500 people today. I have 500 more tomorrow and
• 23:19
  they're going to convert and they've already, they've already
• 23:21
  wrote me LO is and I'm going to make sure day one happens.
• 23:24
  They're paying for it. And like there's something to be
• 23:26
  said for like founders who can make things happen.
• 23:28
  And again, a lot of founders think they're doing that and
• 23:31
  it's not always the case. So I think again, some of that,
• 23:34
  some of that starts to wear out around Series A as you start to
• 23:36
  legitimize the business more and more.
• 23:38
  But that hustle in the beginning is something you can't really
• 23:40
  replace from the founder. And how many members are part of
• 23:44
  your team now? An expert Dojo.
• 23:46
  Around 2025, because we're global, so we have some people
• 23:50
  kind of sprinkled all around the world.
• 23:52
  Primary people are based out of our Los Angeles office.
• 23:55
  We have an office in Miami as well.
• 23:57
  And then we have our office in India.
• 23:59
  So in Bangalore, India, we have a team there as well.
• 24:02
  A lot of our operation stuff is done there.
• 24:04
  So we have about 10 people on the ground there, Co people in
• 24:08
  Nigeria, one in South Africa. How did you find all these
• 24:12
  people all over the place? How did they find you?
• 24:15
  Yeah, You know, it's been, it's been an interesting experience
• 24:17
  just finding everybody. So a lot of them have just come
• 24:20
  from startup communities. So like we have somebody in
• 24:23
  South America and we met them just through a startup community
• 24:25
  down in in Chile. So they were running some things
• 24:29
  down there with us. My wife went to high school down
• 24:31
  there. So I kind of got Scott involved
• 24:32
  in this community down in Santiago, got to know him.
• 24:35
  He knew a ton of people in that community.
• 24:37
  They're connected to a few, a few good companies, worked with
• 24:39
  some other programs down there that we're doing.
• 24:41
  Things like Chile is a good, great place for startups.
• 24:45
  They have like Startup Chile and other good programs like that.
• 24:47
  They've got to let government run things where they're
• 24:48
  incentivizing founders to start their companies there.
• 24:51
  So you'll see a lot of founders from places like Peru or
• 24:54
  Colombia go come down there and they'll start.
• 24:56
  And so they have a lot of things there.
• 24:57
  So finding those hubs is really useful as well.
• 25:00
  And so we just, we've gotten connected people just through
• 25:02
  various things like that, gotten them involved with what we're
• 25:04
  doing and seeing how they can help us in those markets as
• 25:06
  well. Obviously they know the culture
• 25:09
  down there better than we will. They know the economics down
• 25:11
  there. They know what's happening and
• 25:13
  they know what things to look out for as far as like, well, I
• 25:16
  see fifty of these type of companies.
• 25:17
  It's not really unique down here.
• 25:19
  And they can just give us more, some more information on the
• 25:23
  market because I think that's something that's lost for a lot
• 25:26
  of places as well. And so we bring in good people
• 25:28
  in those places. Our team in Nigeria is awesome
• 25:30
  and I love working with those guys too.
• 25:31
  And they find us some great companies there too.
• 25:34
  They're always looking for new companies.
• 25:36
  They're always doing different things.
• 25:37
  Again, same way they're hustling, they're in
• 25:38
  communities, they have their own startup groups and they do them
• 25:42
  all over Northeast Africa. So they do a lot of things in
• 25:45
  Ghana and Nigeria and Ivory Coast, pretty much all the
• 25:48
  Francophone countries over there as well.
• 25:50
  When you're investing in a company that is outside the US,
• 25:53
  obviously some of them like the the credit blockchain setup that
• 25:57
  you were talking about in Africa, that's something that is
• 26:00
  most likely going to be specific to that country or that region,
• 26:04
  right? Are there often opportunities
• 26:07
  where you look at that and you're like, Oh yeah, once you
• 26:09
  get that going, you've got a little momentum.
• 26:11
  Let's bring that same thing to the US.
• 26:14
  Absolutely. So.
• 26:16
  So yeah, we have a, we have a lot of those too.
• 26:18
  And I think it can change just depend on what their vision is
• 26:21
  as well. But I don't, I don't want to
• 26:24
  know a company better than the founder does.
• 26:26
  I believe that they know the market because that they're the
• 26:28
  ones running this and this is what they're dedicated their
• 26:30
  life to doing. So if we think we can add value
• 26:33
  if whether it's helping them in the US or helping them in other
• 26:35
  markets, we'll definitely do that.
• 26:37
  We tend to find if they're working in like if their
• 26:39
  company's really successful in a place like Nigeria, it tends to
• 26:42
  work in better and underserved markets than saying you need to
• 26:44
  focus in the United States. It's like, well, Peru has a lot
• 26:47
  of these same problems economically, maybe they'd be a
• 26:49
  good market for you guys as well.
• 26:50
  So we have a good, we have somebody that works in Peru that
• 26:53
  maybe he, maybe they can help you guys with some customer
• 26:55
  interactions, seeing if that works there too.
• 26:57
  So finding like, it's not always like the US is not the option
• 27:00
  for everybody. India is not the right option
• 27:02
  for everybody. And a lot of times you get like
• 27:04
  the language barriers can be issues in certain places.
• 27:06
  You got cultural differences sometimes.
• 27:08
  Like we, we don't do a ton of things in places like Brazil
• 27:11
  because culturally Brazil tends to build their own things in
• 27:14
  house and they, it just, they, they make their own Brazilian
• 27:17
  unicorns and that's kind of how it works.
• 27:19
  And there's some some things that do that are different there
• 27:21
  too. But like we don't see a lot of
• 27:23
  our companies be successful going there unless they're from
• 27:25
  Brazil and like they invest in Brazilian values.
• 27:28
  So and there's a few markets that are like that.
• 27:29
  You know, India is kind of like that as well.
• 27:31
  Now, obviously India does a lot more experiment to the US now
• 27:34
  and they're obviously a lot. There's a lot great companies
• 27:36
  coming out that work with the US, but it doesn't always
• 27:39
  transfer 1 to 1 to other countries.
• 27:41
  And sometimes the resources to open another country might be
• 27:44
  not worth it. And if you can just take over
• 27:46
  the Nigerian market, it can be better just to do that and then
• 27:49
  just go into other countries around there if you need to at
• 27:51
  all. So it just depends there's, I
• 27:53
  think it depends on the company and it's always a case by case
• 27:55
  basis. So you mentioned earlier in our
• 27:58
  conversation about how you let the founders kind of tend to the
• 28:03
  operational aspects of the company because this is the area
• 28:07
  that they understand, they know the best.
• 28:09
  You know, where you like to be able to offer support early on
• 28:12
  is kind of on the growth side of things.
• 28:14
  Can we make some introductions that are helpful to you?
• 28:17
  Can we be helpful in the sales side of things outside of making
• 28:21
  those intros? How what are some other levers
• 28:24
  that you can pull to help your port codes?
• 28:27
  You know, you guys helping them run Facebook ads or like what,
• 28:32
  what else can you kind of bring to the table for them?
• 28:34
  Yeah. So, so, so Brian, who leads,
• 28:36
  Brian leads our growth program on a day-to-day basis.
• 28:38
  So, so he's actually working with our companies.
• 28:40
  I tend to focus more on more on like the investment side of
• 28:42
  things and helping them on the finances.
• 28:44
  But when you're working with those companies, they can,
• 28:47
  again, I don't ever like to put everybody in a box and say
• 28:50
  that's the way to do something. When we're working with these
• 28:52
  companies that can be developing the brand and saying, hey, your
• 28:54
  customers are turning off this after two months, Why are they
• 28:58
  having issues leading your platform?
• 29:00
  Like why are they, why are they not paying?
• 29:02
  Why are they leaving you? So going through problems like
• 29:04
  that and examining what's happening within the business
• 29:06
  and saying, OK, well, actually your user experience isn't very
• 29:08
  strong here. They're not seeing value with
• 29:10
  this over the long term. You need to really change things
• 29:12
  on this side so it can be developing on the brand side of
• 29:15
  things so that when a customer sees your product, they actually
• 29:17
  are converting on there as well. I think things like Facebook ads
• 29:21
  and Google ads, I mean, they're obviously useful and they, they
• 29:25
  can do a lot of great for a company, but relying on
• 29:28
  something like that is never the right way to do it, in my
• 29:30
  opinion. I mean, there's, if we,
• 29:32
  whenever, if I ask a company like, well, how are you
• 29:34
  acquiring users? Well, we're going to spend money
• 29:36
  on Google. That's not a, that's not the
• 29:38
  right answer. I mean, if you're going to be
• 29:39
  doing SEO behind that, if you're going to be doing things to make
• 29:42
  sure you're converting on Google, that's that's different.
• 29:44
  If you're going to prove, if you've proven you know how to
• 29:46
  sell on Google, that's that's, that's not just, it's easier
• 29:50
  said than done just to sell on Google.
• 29:51
  You know, you can say that, but actually converting is a whole
• 29:54
  nother thing. So I think it's, it's a lot more
• 29:57
  than just selling on Facebook, selling on Google.
• 29:59
  It's converting on Facebook and Google.
• 30:01
  That's what we want to focus on. So it's not about spending
• 30:04
  money, it's about doing things efficiently.
• 30:06
  If you can build an e-mail campaign and convert more than
• 30:08
  an ad campaign, you're probably going to spend a hell of a lot
• 30:10
  less money. So if there's ways you can do
• 30:13
  things that are a lot cheaper, if you can just pick up the
• 30:15
  phone and call your customers and get in front of them that
• 30:17
  way, that's going to be a lot less money too.
• 30:19
  And a founder can do that all day long.
• 30:21
  So spending your money wisely. And I think every company hits a
• 30:25
  stage where they probably where they're going to have to spend
• 30:26
  more money, they're going to have to expand their marketing
• 30:28
  and things like that too. But doing things in a way that
• 30:30
  are sustainable and that you can scale.
• 30:32
  If you can't scale that gross campaign, you're not going to be
• 30:35
  able to raise your next round. You're not going to be able to
• 30:36
  continue to run the company the way you are unless you have FEC
• 30:41
  who commits to giving you a billion dollars and can fund you
• 30:44
  all the way through and doesn't matter, doesn't care about what
• 30:46
  your metrics are. But there's very few of those
• 30:48
  kind of companies that exist. If you think about a lot of the
• 30:52
  companies that you've looked at and had to say no to, what is
• 30:57
  the most common mistake that they're making where you know,
• 31:03
  you want to give them some coaching, you want to give them
• 31:04
  some advice like this was kind of a red flag or this was
• 31:08
  something that was missing. So that, you know, other folks
• 31:11
  maybe in in similar shoes right now who are listening are like,
• 31:14
  oh, that's something I need to go button up.
• 31:16
  Yeah, I think a lot of companies struggle to understand the
• 31:20
  market and don't when I see like a slide of like who their
• 31:25
  competitors are and it's just they're selling, they think
• 31:28
  they're selling to one group when they're really selling
• 31:29
  against somebody else. And I think a lot of companies
• 31:32
  struggle to understand like when you're selling a product, you're
• 31:35
  not just selling to that person, you're selling versus the other
• 31:38
  people who could potentially be selling for that same product.
• 31:40
  And so refining what is that sales actually, that sale
• 31:43
  actually looks like and saying, hey, I'm not competing with just
• 31:46
  this person. I'm competing for that HR tech
• 31:47
  person's resources. I'm competing for with everybody
• 31:51
  else in this industry. And I'm competing for the entire
• 31:52
  market that when they see my product, they have to be sold
• 31:55
  versus everything else because this person in HR is going to be
• 31:59
  being pitched 10 different companies and they have to pick
• 32:01
  the one or two that are going to be the most useful to the
• 32:02
  company. And if you don't demonstrate
• 32:04
  that value, you're not going to be the one who converts.
• 32:07
  So understanding what that process actually looks like and
• 32:10
  who you're really selling against versus just saying like
• 32:13
  we have Google does this part of it.
• 32:15
  They're they're my main competitor.
• 32:16
  You're probably not selling against Google because Google
• 32:18
  can get in front of anybody if they want to find the companies
• 32:21
  who are selling directly against you.
• 32:23
  Learn what they're doing, learn their value propositions and
• 32:27
  tune your company accordingly. Like figure out how to sell
• 32:29
  versus other companies, other companies, and you'll really
• 32:32
  refine that sales strategy and start to see what's working and
• 32:34
  what's not working and start to understand why things are
• 32:37
  happening to your company versus just hopefully throwing things
• 32:40
  against the wall and seeing what sticks.
• 32:41
  Like you need to continue to understand your market everyday
• 32:44
  because it's always going to be evolving as well, especially
• 32:46
  when you get like things like AI.
• 32:47
  Now, AI tech is is so many, there's so many great
• 32:51
  opportunities in it. However, we get so many pitches
• 32:54
  for it on our side of things. I can't imagine on the
• 32:56
  enterprise side how many pitches they get as well.
• 32:58
  Like you have to stand out. If I get 20 emails about
• 33:01
  companies that are in the AI tech space, they start to blend
• 33:04
  together. Even though you may have a bit
• 33:05
  of a value proposition that's different here, you're still
• 33:08
  competing against some of these other companies in that space,
• 33:10
  whether it's direct or indirect. So just understanding the entire
• 33:14
  market and setting how to set yourself apart from everybody
• 33:16
  can be a huge thing because I think a lot of companies
• 33:18
  overlook that part of it. So now as you think about
• 33:22
  companies that you looked at, you said, yeah, we want to get
• 33:25
  involved in this. There's been hundreds of them.
• 33:28
  Now, if you look at those companies, what are the most
• 33:31
  common mistakes that you see those founders make?
• 33:35
  They've got to the point where they've got a product when you
• 33:37
  get involved, maybe they've even got some sales going on.
• 33:40
  What? What are the most common
• 33:41
  mistakes you see them making at that stage?
• 33:45
  There's, there's a lot, you know, there can be a lot of
• 33:48
  things. I mean, companies can.
• 33:49
  The problem with having 300 companies is you're going to see
• 33:52
  companies fail. And that's just the reality of
• 33:54
  this. If we didn't have any failures,
• 33:55
  we wouldn't be doing this for long enough then.
• 33:56
  So it's just, it's just a reality situation.
• 33:59
  You see a lot of things. Sometimes sales don't work.
• 34:02
  Sometimes you see that they're churning.
• 34:03
  Sometimes the sales processes don't work.
• 34:05
  Sometimes evaluating those things I just said about how are
• 34:08
  they differentiating themselves? Sometimes it works for a certain
• 34:10
  amount of time and then they need to pivot and they're not
• 34:12
  able to pivot fast enough or somebody comes in who just takes
• 34:15
  that market over from them. Sometimes you get things like, I
• 34:18
  mean, we had, we've had found, we've had founders that passed
• 34:21
  away before. Like, you know, just sometimes
• 34:23
  things happen. Like it's just like what it's
• 34:25
  just sometimes life happens alongside sometimes founders.
• 34:28
  We had a husband and wife team who got divorced and that was
• 34:31
  the end of the company basically, and they fought over
• 34:33
  the company and that was it. So it's just sometimes things
• 34:36
  just happen. I mean, you can look at the
• 34:38
  companies and I think Hindsight's 2020, a lot of
• 34:41
  companies and you can always see what's what's wrong with them
• 34:43
  after the fact. You can go through as as far as
• 34:46
  purely in the business side, sales side of things, always
• 34:49
  tough converting on that, making sure that you can do things in a
• 34:51
  scalable way. That's why we focus on that
• 34:54
  side. But again, not every company is
• 34:56
  going to convert on that or else we have 100% success rate.
• 34:59
  Yeah. So then Jonathan, as you look at
• 35:02
  the companies that you invested in early stage and then earned
• 35:06
  your respect to go, you know, for you 2 guys to commit with a
• 35:09
  follow on investment, what are those companies doing?
• 35:12
  What's the common thread there where maybe people can take
• 35:17
  lessons from that? Yeah.
• 35:19
  I mean, so first they're listen, they listen to people.
• 35:22
  They're very open to actually working with other other
• 35:26
  founders that work, open to working with investors.
• 35:28
  When an investor tells them no. I think a lot of them, they
• 35:30
  really take things to heart and they listen to what they're
• 35:32
  saying. And I don't think, I don't think
• 35:34
  there's any investors out there who mean to be like rude to Co
• 35:37
  founders who who are trying to be hurtful to anybody.
• 35:39
  I think they genuinely are telling them their opinion and
• 35:42
  listen to that can be hard to do sometimes, which I can say
• 35:45
  myself, I definitely am guilty of not listening to every
• 35:48
  investor like that too. And not that you didn't need to
• 35:50
  listen to everything, but I think there's always a piece of
• 35:52
  truth and everything they're saying there.
• 35:53
  So listening to the people and then more importantly, listening
• 35:56
  to your customers. If you've got customers churning
• 35:58
  and you're just deciding, well, they don't know what they're
• 35:59
  doing or they just ran out of money or whatever it is, it's
• 36:02
  typically something wrong with the product.
• 36:03
  There's typically something that they're having.
• 36:05
  I mean, obviously some people are going to churn.
• 36:07
  It just happens. But understanding like if you
• 36:09
  have a big, big customer leaves, you like understand why,
• 36:13
  understand what's happening, understand why, what the product
• 36:16
  needs to do to really convert and then really just double down
• 36:18
  on your sales. So continue to push everything
• 36:20
  there. Hire a great team around.
• 36:22
  You can't be afraid to delegate as a founder.
• 36:25
  But yeah, I mean, there's a lot getting past Series A is really
• 36:28
  difficult. I think you always hear like the
• 36:30
  95% failure rate or whatever it is.
• 36:32
  Really most of those companies when they hit Series A, that's
• 36:35
  where you that that number starts to go up quite a bit
• 36:37
  where you're not going to see 95% failure rate because most
• 36:40
  companies don't make it to Series A nowadays.
• 36:42
  Like Series A is where seed is. It is Series A used to be where
• 36:46
  seed is now. So like it's as it's moved
• 36:48
  further and further downstream now where Precede didn't exist
• 36:51
  15 years, 20 years ago. Now it's a common round.
• 36:53
  Everyone's raising. So things have just shifted and
• 36:56
  getting past your Series A is a huge milestone nowadays for a
• 36:59
  lot of these early stage companies.
• 37:00
  It's not the finish line by any means, but it can really.
• 37:03
  It means you're on the right track and you're building things
• 37:05
  the right way. I.
• 37:07
  Want to go back to something we talked about a little bit
• 37:09
  earlier, Jonathan, your new celebrity fund.
• 37:13
  Curious, first of all, how you recruit these folks, How you
• 37:17
  find sort of celebrity folks that want to get involved?
• 37:21
  Yeah, so, so my Co GP in in this fund, Steven, Steven Zukowski,
• 37:25
  he's he's been involved in the mostly the sports world for for
• 37:29
  some time. I've known Steven for for quite
• 37:31
  a while now too. And so basically what he was
• 37:33
  doing is he was working with a lot of great primarily athletes
• 37:36
  with some influencers, some some celebrities as well.
• 37:38
  And the problem they always have is they get presented deals
• 37:41
  every day and they don't really know what they're looking for
• 37:43
  and they don't really know how to filter them and they don't
• 37:45
  know if it's a trusted source. So a lot of the people he was
• 37:48
  working with, he just, he would send to us and like, hey, can
• 37:50
  you just evaluate a deal for them and give them feedback on
• 37:53
  if you guys would do something or not.
• 37:54
  And we would do it for it was completely free.
• 37:57
  We weren't charging them to do anything.
• 37:58
  It was just good for us to be exposed to those kind of people
• 38:01
  and a lot of them would continue to connect with us.
• 38:04
  And so when we were raising this fund, we said, hey, we want to
• 38:06
  pull a big group of people together.
• 38:08
  We want to make sure that we're all sharing deals together.
• 38:09
  We want to make sure that you have the best opportunities that
• 38:12
  if you want to be a brand ambassador to a company, you can
• 38:14
  do so. If you want to be a partner of
• 38:16
  it and an investor in it, that's a good way to do so.
• 38:18
  Because I think a lot of athletes, in particular, they
• 38:21
  see people like like Shaq or these people who are like
• 38:23
  invested in all these big companies and they don't really
• 38:26
  understand how they got involved in that.
• 38:27
  And then they hear about one startup like, well, that's going
• 38:29
  to be the next big company. And they don't know the failure
• 38:32
  rates and understanding just the VC ecosystem and what kind of
• 38:36
  failure rates you really do see because it's called high risk
• 38:38
  investing for a reason. And the reality is most VCs
• 38:41
  don't turn a profit. The reality is most companies
• 38:44
  are going to far are not going to help you back with a return
• 38:47
  and understanding what that timeline actually looks like.
• 38:49
  So if you do invest $50,000 in the company today, you're not
• 38:53
  going to see that for several years, if ever.
• 38:56
  So just understanding that full market and educating them more
• 38:59
  than anything in the beginning. But then on beyond that is
• 39:02
  there's, there's plenty of athletes and things who are very
• 39:04
  well connecting this space and know it and know it well.
• 39:06
  But just that deal sharing that deal sourcing is a huge thing
• 39:09
  for them as well. So connecting them with those
• 39:11
  companies in Africa, like I was mentioning where they don't know
• 39:14
  anybody in Nigeria and we can find a curated deal in Nigeria
• 39:16
  that they want to invest into just having that access as well.
• 39:19
  So working with Stephen, his network of athletes, his great,
• 39:23
  the great people he knows and what we've done in the in the
• 39:26
  past and just our tracker of investing it just.
• 39:28
  Well, you guys had a lot of these folks coming to you before
• 39:32
  you kind of started the celebrity fund saying, hey,
• 39:34
  would you just evaluate this deal?
• 39:35
  You guys are smart, you've got a track record.
• 39:38
  You seem to be knowing, you know what you're doing.
• 39:41
  And so from there you kind of said, hey, you know, we've,
• 39:45
  we've got folks that are interested.
• 39:46
  Why don't, why don't we start showing them the deals that
• 39:48
  we've got and start finding deals that maybe are tailored a
• 39:50
  little bit more towards them? Yeah, exactly.
• 39:53
  I mean, it was really easy for us like just to put, put two and
• 39:56
  two together with this too. Like you kind of asked how the
• 39:58
  fund evolved over time earlier. And it really just flowed into
• 40:03
  this like we're not changing our model.
• 40:04
  We're just adding this layer on so that startups want exposure
• 40:07
  to the people that we're working with.
• 40:08
  They want to be in front of great athletes.
• 40:11
  They want to be in front of good influencers.
• 40:12
  And but a lot of them don't have the money to really pay for
• 40:14
  influencer campaigns and they don't have the they don't have
• 40:17
  the money to be afford poor conversion rates, which
• 40:20
  influencer marketing tends to be.
• 40:22
  On the higher side of cost, customer acquisition costs, So
• 40:24
  if you can find a great ambassador who can connect you
• 40:27
  to other people they know and really build a great synergistic
• 40:29
  relationship there, it's a no brainer for us.
• 40:31
  So it really makes everything easier on both sides of this.
• 40:34
  The athletes, the celebrities get access to these great
• 40:36
  companies and the companies get access to them and their
• 40:38
  network. So we want to make sure
• 40:40
  everyone's winning in this. We want to make sure that the
• 40:42
  deals are curated, that everything is sourced there too,
• 40:45
  athletes and influence. Can we still do like monthly
• 40:47
  sessions where we bring them in and say, hey, even if we're not
• 40:49
  invested in this company, if we're not involved in it, bring
• 40:52
  it forward and we'll all do diligence on a deal together.
• 40:54
  So we'll just see what's working and if you want to invest in it,
• 40:56
  great. If we want to get involved, we
• 40:57
  can all do that together. So it's really just a way we can
• 41:00
  work with them, educate that side of things too.
• 41:02
  And it's a no brainer for us on how we win as well.
• 41:05
  So we get to work with them long term on this too, just because
• 41:08
  we're able to give back to it. So it kind of goes back to the
• 41:11
  beginning of Expert Dojo of giving back to that startup
• 41:13
  community. So we're giving back to
• 41:15
  everybody in this as well. So we're still trying to help.
• 41:17
  Everything we do is going to be free on that side of things.
• 41:19
  We want to make sure they're involved and they can trust us
• 41:20
  in this. So we're never going to be
• 41:22
  giving them advice that leans towards our side for one reason,
• 41:26
  or that we're always on their side with all of this.
• 41:29
  Our the celebrities typically investing at the same rate that
• 41:33
  everybody else is. Or are they getting some kind of
• 41:36
  special consideration because their likeness or their name can
• 41:40
  be used in promotions? It depends.
• 41:42
  If a company, if they just want to be an investor in a company,
• 41:45
  they would most likely just come in as part of a round.
• 41:48
  If they want to do some sort of brand deal, depending on who the
• 41:50
  celebrity is, depending on their influence, things like that.
• 41:53
  We work with our companies to to figure that out too.
• 41:57
  So we try to again, keep it fair for everybody involved as well.
• 42:00
  So that's one of the great things of this too, is we can
• 42:02
  bridge that relationship and see the athletes and the people we
• 42:05
  work with. They know where these companies
• 42:07
  are at. They're not expecting to get
• 42:09
  $1,000,000 checks for posts like it's just not the reality of
• 42:11
  these preceding seed stage companies.
• 42:13
  So finding a way they can do things that's sustainable, but
• 42:16
  also helps everybody all involved as well.
• 42:17
  So if it's like becoming an advisor doing something like
• 42:20
  that too, that happens pretty often, but we'll work with the
• 42:23
  companies and the founders just to make sure everything's
• 42:25
  working out on that side and making sure every involved is is
• 42:28
  going to win in this in the end as well.
• 42:30
  Jonathan, I want to shift gears for a moment and talk about a
• 42:33
  serious challenge that you've overcome in your life, personal
• 42:37
  or professional. How'd you get through it?
• 42:39
  What did you learn? Yeah.
• 42:41
  You know, I, when I was with my other company beforehand, I just
• 42:47
  moved to LA, the company was not doing very well in sales side of
• 42:51
  the sales side of things. And I ended up, I lost my
• 42:54
  apartment back then too. So I, I ended up living in my
• 42:57
  car for about 3 months in LA. There was a, it was a very like
• 43:01
  two time moment with that too. So I had AI had a big choice to
• 43:05
  make there too, where I could have left the company, I could
• 43:06
  have decided just to go stay with somebody back in my
• 43:10
  hometown, But I decided to stay in LAII, got a gym membership
• 43:14
  and I would just shower, work out of the gym, do everything
• 43:17
  there and then live work on the company and do my sales stuff.
• 43:20
  And nobody I was working with knew anything was happening
• 43:23
  because I was doing all that. So it was just hustling through
• 43:26
  that. So that was a wrong a long time.
• 43:28
  But during that time I converted sales, was able to get
• 43:31
  everything back going. And luckily it got it got going
• 43:34
  pretty quick. So I was able to get everything
• 43:36
  sorted out there. But there was definitely a time
• 43:38
  I could have just been like, yeah, I'm not doing this anymore
• 43:40
  and could have stopped working on the company and could have
• 43:42
  just gone back home or done whatever then, but very happy I
• 43:46
  didn't. So it was a, it was three months
• 43:48
  of very stressful time, but was able to do that and which.
• 43:52
  Company was. This, that was at the beginning,
• 43:54
  and that's their startup I was working with too.
• 43:56
  So I was actually working with them.
• 43:57
  I was doing some consulting stuff on the side, trying to
• 43:59
  work with founders, helping on some sales.
• 44:02
  I think basically just doing whatever I could.
• 44:03
  First founders, I knew a lot of founders in that stage too.
• 44:07
  So I was always trying to tap into the network they're seeing.
• 44:09
  I could help with sales, doing things as well.
• 44:11
  So it was just hustling any way we could back then.
• 44:14
  And then obviously working with the startup that I was that I
• 44:16
  was doing and then working anybody else I knew who needed
• 44:20
  some support there too. So I was able to push through
• 44:22
  that stage at the end, so. You are going to work during the
• 44:25
  day, making sales calls, doing your thing, getting a little
• 44:28
  momentum going. You're showering at the gym,
• 44:32
  shower and brushing your teeth, making grooming yourself, making
• 44:35
  yourself presentable. And then at night you find some
• 44:38
  place to like. A quiet place to park your car
• 44:40
  and just pretty sleep in the back seat.
• 44:42
  Or what? Yeah, pretty much, yeah.
• 44:43
  I mean, it was, it was. It was in my early 20s then,
• 44:46
  too. So it wasn't, I don't know if I
• 44:48
  could do it now, but it was it was, it was fine back then.
• 44:52
  Yeah, that's pretty much it. So it was just like, it was just
• 44:54
  like hustling with calls, making sure.
• 44:56
  And it wasn't like I didn't have like a clear like what I wanted
• 44:58
  it to have happen. I knew where I was, what I was
• 45:00
  trying to do. And I knew what I needed to do
• 45:03
  with the company to be all right, everything here as well.
• 45:05
  And it was more of just like, you're going to stop doing this
• 45:08
  or do you want to push forward with it?
• 45:09
  And it was, I made a choice like I'm OK with this for a few
• 45:12
  months, I'll figure it out, I'll work with it.
• 45:14
  If I need to stay at a friend's house for a couple nights, I can
• 45:16
  try and do that. But I had just relocated down
• 45:19
  there too. And so I was, I knew that was
• 45:20
  where my customer base was and that's where I needed to do
• 45:23
  things to be successful with it. So took a few months.
• 45:25
  I didn't have much resources before I did that, so in
• 45:29
  hindsight, maybe I could have could have planned better, but
• 45:31
  you know, I jumped off a Cliff and helped to figure it out in
• 45:34
  the way. Spoken like a true entrepreneur.
• 45:37
  Ready fire and then aim afterwards, yeah.
• 45:41
  Yeah, and I now I would say in hindsight, it's probably not the
• 45:44
  best way to do things, but you know, you, you live and you
• 45:46
  learn. Yeah.
• 45:48
  And so as you think back to that time, have there been other
• 45:52
  challenges in your life that you've gone through where maybe
• 45:56
  consciously or subconsciously, you kind of think about that
• 45:59
  time and you're like, oh, I don't know if I can get through
• 46:02
  this. It's like, dude, you slept in a
• 46:05
  car, in your car for three months and showered at the gym.
• 46:08
  Like you got this. Like you like, almost like it
• 46:12
  was sort of like a proving ground for you.
• 46:14
  Like what you could endure and overcome.
• 46:18
  Yeah. And I think it's, it's funny
• 46:20
  when I work with like what we're doing now, it's, it can be very
• 46:23
  stressful. It can be very time sensitive
• 46:25
  and you get everything is the most important thing in the
• 46:27
  world. That time, you know, every deal
• 46:29
  we're doing, every investment like we're doing these follow on
• 46:31
  deals. A lot of it's very time
• 46:32
  sensitive. A lot of it's very much like we
• 46:34
  have to make decisions quickly and they can be very stressful.
• 46:38
  At the end of the day, it's all money related.
• 46:41
  It's all like just figuring things on that side of things.
• 46:44
  So I, I, I tend to not be super stressed about a lot of things
• 46:49
  on that side anymore. Obviously I'm always working on
• 46:52
  them too. So it's not like when I say
• 46:53
  there's no stress, it doesn't mean we're not doing what we
• 46:55
  need to be doing. But I try not to let it affect
• 46:58
  everything in life and that after that now.
• 47:00
  But yeah, I think there's parts of that too.
• 47:03
  I mean, just pushing yourself to do things that are
• 47:05
  uncomfortable. And I try to do it every day.
• 47:07
  I try to do do something physical every day, going to
• 47:10
  run, do something. And I think that bleeds into
• 47:12
  everything in your life when you when you push yourself and do
• 47:14
  that as well. So yeah, do something difficult
• 47:16
  every day and it makes your work seem a lot less hard.
• 47:19
  Say a little bit more about that you sort of your your daily
• 47:21
  routines. So yeah, I, I work out every
• 47:26
  day. I do at least 30 to 30 minutes
• 47:29
  to an hour every day. I usually run.
• 47:31
  So I'll usually run 3 to 4 miles.
• 47:34
  My buddy wants to run a marathon with me in the next few months.
• 47:37
  I'm going to try and try and step it up here in the next few
• 47:39
  months. So we'll see how that goes.
• 47:41
  And then I do like, I do jiu jitsu and stuff too.
• 47:43
  So I like to have fun and that side of things.
• 47:44
  And so that that's obviously can be very physically testing as
• 47:49
  well, but I have a lot of fun doing that.
• 47:51
  Doing it helps with just managing your mental health.
• 47:54
  I think as well with running and exercise in general, it helps
• 47:58
  with a lot of that stuff too. So I like to burn myself out so
• 48:00
  when I'm at night, I can actually sleep as opposed to
• 48:03
  thinking about the 20,000 startups I'm working with.
• 48:06
  So I think a lot of those things bleed into each other.
• 48:09
  How would you characterize your superpower, Jonathan?
• 48:15
  You know, I think it's really just connecting with people.
• 48:19
  I think with, with founders, especially getting involved in
• 48:22
  that. I think sales is a very unique
• 48:25
  thing. I was always fairly good at
• 48:27
  sales. And that was because I think I
• 48:29
  didn't approach anything from a perspective of like, I'm just
• 48:31
  trying to get something. It was always how can we help
• 48:34
  each other? And I think a lot of those
• 48:35
  things carry into this now where when I'm talking to somebody,
• 48:39
  whether it be a founder, whether it be 1 of the athletes you're
• 48:41
  working with too, I'm not looking at what can I get from
• 48:44
  this person. It's what can I do with this
• 48:46
  person and how can we help each other out.
• 48:48
  And it's always a very synergistic relationship versus
• 48:50
  me just taking something. I never wanna approach a
• 48:54
  relationship like I'm winning and they're losing on something.
• 48:56
  It's about how do we actually connect together?
• 48:58
  How do we do this together and win the right way together?
• 49:01
  Because if it's also a very long term view or short term view,
• 49:04
  like if I do something and they don't like me afterwards because
• 49:07
  they are upset with this deal or something like that, they're
• 49:10
  going to tell other people that they didn't like working with US
• 49:12
  versus the other other way. Like even if a deal doesn't work
• 49:15
  out, like, hey, we, we did this together, it failed for this
• 49:17
  reason. Still love these guys and
• 49:19
  they're still going to do some great things with us as well.
• 49:20
  So I want to make sure that they're all, I want to have
• 49:23
  transparency. I want them to know the good and
• 49:24
  the bad of a deal because every deal at precede is going to have
• 49:27
  bad. And there's just no, there's no
• 49:29
  way to get around that because they're all early and that
• 49:31
  they're going to be missing something in the team.
• 49:32
  They're going to be missing something on the sales.
• 49:34
  So really just building things off of that.
• 49:37
  So I want to be working with them and I want them to know
• 49:40
  where they are. So I think that's where I've
• 49:41
  always done well is just connecting with people.
• 49:44
  And I think that goes across international borders where I
• 49:47
  can speak to founders in Nigeria and I can speak to founders in
• 49:49
  India. I can speak to founders all
• 49:51
  across the US and still connect them as well.
• 49:53
  Well, as I hear you talk it, it, it occurs to me that you're more
• 49:58
  of an educator than a salesman, right?
• 50:00
  Because you're, it's not like push, push, push.
• 50:02
  It's hey, here's the deal, here's what we like about it,
• 50:06
  here's what we don't like about it.
• 50:09
  And you know, companies, at this stage, there's always going to
• 50:12
  be stuff that we like, but transparently.
• 50:14
  Here's the full the Full Monty. Make your call.
• 50:18
  Yeah. And I think that's where that's
• 50:20
  what I mean we're like connecting to like it's, it's
• 50:21
  not a pure sales approach ever. Like I never wanted, I never
• 50:25
  sold used cards and I always sold a, if you saw a service, I
• 50:27
  saw a product, a product that can benefit somebody else.
• 50:30
  Like I'm have no problem getting on the phone and telling
• 50:33
  somebody why something is going to be great for their business
• 50:35
  can help them. Because if I truly believe in
• 50:37
  that, then we're helping each other here.
• 50:38
  If this product is going to help your business and make you
• 50:41
  better, like that's great. We're all winning together here
• 50:43
  too. And it's the same thing with
• 50:44
  what we do. Like if I, if I think we can
• 50:46
  make the best investments, I think we can connect you with
• 50:48
  the best founders and connect you with great people in our
• 50:51
  network. I want to get you involved
• 50:52
  because I truly believe what we're doing.
• 50:54
  And I think that there's nothing that really replaces like that
• 50:56
  belief in what you're building. Jonathan, if you had to
• 50:59
  recommend one resource to our audience, a book, a course, a
• 51:03
  podcast, something that has been helpful, instrumental in your
• 51:07
  own either personal or professional growth, what would
• 51:10
  that be? I read a lot of books when I
• 51:13
  first got into the VC world because I think it's very hard
• 51:16
  to break into when you don't really know a lot of like.
• 51:19
  It's not a very, like they don't teach you much about VC to get
• 51:24
  into it, like you kind of have to know a lot of it.
• 51:26
  And so learning on the job is not really an option.
• 51:28
  You have to go and do it and kind of have an idea of what
• 51:31
  they're saying to do, how to get involved and then how to source
• 51:34
  companies, how to find the right people and how to put forward
• 51:37
  deals. So most major VCs have some sort
• 51:40
  of book. I've read most of them, I think
• 51:43
  a lot. I haven't, I haven't read it
• 51:45
  very many new VCs books. So I read a lot of the old ones
• 51:48
  in the beginning. It's like Brad Feld's book and
• 51:49
  those ones, the ones that everyone pretty much knows
• 51:52
  about, those I think lean on those ones.
• 51:55
  And some of the information might be a little dated now,
• 51:57
  just because the VC ecosystem moves so quickly, but the
• 51:59
  fundamentals remain fairly similar.
• 52:03
  Just there's, but there's so many resources out there you can
• 52:05
  have. And really, if you're working
• 52:06
  with VCs, there's so many VCs that have scout programs and had
• 52:09
  different things. Because at the end of the day,
• 52:11
  AVC just wants steel flow. I mean, obviously like Sequoia
• 52:14
  doesn't need more deal flow, but although apart from them might
• 52:17
  tell me otherwise, you know, if they want good deal flow.
• 52:19
  So if you're going to be a scout and you're going to send deals
• 52:21
  forward, there's no every VC is looking for deal flow.
• 52:24
  So if you talk to a local firm, you talk to somebody in the city
• 52:27
  that's not as big as Silicon Valley, typically you, I
• 52:30
  guarantee you, you can find something if you're really
• 52:32
  committed to doing it and you're connected in that environment.
• 52:34
  So meet founders, meet investors and find a way you can get
• 52:37
  involved with that if you're trying to get involved in that
• 52:39
  space. But I mean, as far as other
• 52:42
  resources with that too, there's a lot of most, there's a lot of
• 52:45
  VCs have podcasts now too. So you can learn about what does
• 52:48
  their deal flow process look like and what does their
• 52:49
  diligence process look like. I mean, they'll all have
• 52:53
  different ones. So that's the, that's The funny
• 52:56
  thing with VC 2 is like what my diligence look like is not the
• 52:59
  same as what another firms looks like.
• 53:00
  So they could have one criteria that's a deal breaker for them
• 53:03
  and for another, it's not as big of a deal, you know, and so it
• 53:06
  just depends on what their mandate looks like.
• 53:08
  So understand who you're working with, understand those firms and
• 53:12
  it'll help out a lot there. And just you do that by
• 53:13
  listening to them directly. You mentioned Brad Feld
• 53:17
  specifically, and Brad was a recent guest on the show.
• 53:19
  I'm curious what what specific things did you kind of take away
• 53:22
  from him? I think a lot of his was just
• 53:25
  understanding the market and what they're looking for.
• 53:28
  And he I think he has a lot of great perspectives of how they
• 53:30
  find deals and obviously he's well known and just what he's
• 53:33
  done in the past. And I mean how he's built
• 53:36
  companies and how he's done things within his own fund and
• 53:38
  beyond that Even so, learning from somebody who's who was in
• 53:42
  was in the beginning of this process really and like learn
• 53:45
  knows how to be one of the big BC's here has really helped
• 53:48
  develop this entire culture is a big thing.
• 53:50
  So I mean, I like I love reading his book and understanding it
• 53:53
  too. I let her, I read that book when
• 53:55
  I was on the startup side of things more than anything too.
• 53:58
  So it wasn't even, it was more like understanding what VCs were
• 54:01
  looking for so that I could fit in my conversation accordingly
• 54:04
  as well and understand like, OK, well, this is what they want to
• 54:06
  see. How do I change my startup to be
• 54:08
  something that's more applicable to what they're looking for
• 54:12
  versus just doing what I think is right?
• 54:13
  Like I want to hear from somebody else who's done things
• 54:15
  like they're going to, if I need funding for a company, find out
• 54:19
  what they're actually looking for and try and make my company
• 54:21
  fund, you know, because not every company is going to be a
• 54:23
  VC company. But if I want to go that route,
• 54:25
  I need to find out how to do that.
• 54:27
  And I think that's a big thing, especially for early the young
• 54:30
  founder. You don't know what you don't
• 54:32
  know. So finding out those kind of
• 54:34
  things, trying to be a sponge for everybody, like learning
• 54:37
  from those VCs and listen to what they're saying.
• 54:39
  And they have those books out there.
• 54:40
  That's just, that is their thoughts that they're telling
• 54:42
  you what they're looking for. You just have to listen.
• 54:45
  Be a sponge. Soak it all up, right?
• 54:48
  Absolutely. Jonathan, I've just got one more
• 54:51
  question for you. But before I ask it, I want to
• 54:52
  do 2 things. First, I'm going to invite
• 54:55
  everyone listening today to hit the follow button on their
• 54:57
  favorite podcast app. We've had a great conversation
• 55:00
  here today with Jonathan Wallace from Expert Dojo, and I want to
• 55:04
  make sure you get more great interviews like this in your
• 55:07
  feed. Jonathan, I also want to let
• 55:09
  people know the best way to get in touch with you or directly
• 55:14
  with Expert Dojo. What is that?
• 55:16
  Yep. So everyone can go to our
• 55:17
  website. We have an open application page
• 55:20
  on there. So anybody can apply.
• 55:21
  Those go to me and my team. So they can we, they will be
• 55:26
  seen by our team. I can guarantee you that because
• 55:29
  I personally have to go through a lot of those applications.
• 55:32
  Some we have somebody in our team who does like some specific
• 55:35
  industries and things like that just to, to go to make it a
• 55:37
  little easier on me. But primarily it's our team
• 55:40
  evaluating everything and they can also just message me
• 55:43
  directly. It's Jon at expertdojo.com.
• 55:46
  So just John at expertdojo.com. I'm always open to getting
• 55:50
  emails. There's, I've never seen AI have
• 55:52
  no problem telling a founder what I think of the company,
• 55:54
  where they're at, what we, what we need to do on our side of
• 55:56
  things. So I'm always happy to have a
• 55:57
  conversation to see what we can do on our side.
• 56:00
  Doesn't mean necessarily we're going to fund a company, but if
• 56:02
  I can help a company, if I can help a founder, I'm going to try
• 56:05
  and do so however I can. You get a lot of experience that
• 56:09
  a whole bunch of folks would really benefit from.
• 56:10
  So it's super generous of you to be able to offer up your time
• 56:13
  like that. So the last question I have for
• 56:16
  you is, you know, had a nice conversation here today.
• 56:20
  I hope you and I stay in touch. And a year from now you're super
• 56:24
  excited because you're celebrating something.
• 56:27
  What's that thing you're celebrating a year from?
• 56:29
  Now, you know, I'm hoping we could see a couple of these
• 56:31
  companies with some some big Series B, Series C rounds here
• 56:34
  too. So I think more than anything
• 56:37
  I'm looking for, I'm looking forward to seeing our startups
• 56:39
  succeed. You know, they went, I only win
• 56:41
  if they win big too. So I want to see that side of
• 56:43
  things. I want to continue to see some
• 56:45
  of our celebrity fun grow. I want to see our network
• 56:47
  continue to grow on that. And the great thing about those
• 56:50
  two things, it's fun to see people I grew up watching.
• 56:53
  It's fun to see people involved in the sports world because I'm
• 56:56
  a big, I'm a big fan of everything on that side too.
• 56:57
  So hopefully we're seeing some startup success and we're all
• 57:00
  out celebrating together somewhere.
• 57:03
  Actually follow on question for you there, Jonathan.
• 57:07
  You know you've got, you've got a lot of new things going on
• 57:12
  with sort of the celebrity fund coming.
• 57:14
  I'm curious sort of as you look at the space in general, what
• 57:18
  are kind of the big changes you see coming to the funding space
• 57:23
  in the next couple of years? Do you see it shifting?
• 57:26
  Do you see there being like big changes, whether it's because of
• 57:31
  ways that AI is being leveraged or just kind of other like
• 57:34
  forces that are are playing a part here?
• 57:38
  Absolutely, Yeah. AI is changing everything in
• 57:42
  technology right now. And it's, I mean, I if I'd be
• 57:46
  lying if I said I could tell you exactly what's going to be
• 57:48
  happening with that. And it's going to affect our
• 57:50
  industry as much as it's affecting every other industry
• 57:52
  right now. So I know a lot of like
• 57:55
  associate role stuff. A lot of the times I know we see
• 57:58
  personally who are doing a lot of those things on it, on AI
• 58:00
  now, developing deal memos, things like that.
• 58:02
  So there's something to be said about what a VC is going to be
• 58:06
  pulling from AI. I think there's still elements
• 58:09
  of that that you're going to have to refine, but we'll see
• 58:11
  what happens with AII. Think there's a lot of things
• 58:13
  coming on that side too. But we're going to see a lot of
• 58:16
  investments in that industry. I think obviously AI still the
• 58:19
  big thing in VC every, every company I speak to now has some
• 58:22
  element of AI they have. It's just the big buzzword in
• 58:26
  our industry now and finding what's AI and finding what's not
• 58:30
  seeing what kind of IP they can develop around AI.
• 58:32
  Because the reality is most of them are using open AI or some
• 58:36
  other major AI platform that's out there.
• 58:39
  They're just using those LLMS and seeing what they can do with
• 58:41
  them. So developing, I'm sorry,
• 58:44
  developing IP around those things can be instrumental.
• 58:47
  So it has to be unique, it has to be something that's different
• 58:51
  from the rest of the rest of the products out there.
• 58:53
  And you can really brand them a specific way because I think
• 58:56
  branding is going to be a big piece of that as well.
• 58:57
  And how you can actually go to market with your with your
• 59:00
  product because there's so many AI video generators, AI chat
• 59:04
  bots and AI works assistants that are out there now.
• 59:07
  I mean, there's going to be different ones, there's going to
• 59:10
  be ones who win in those in those markets.
• 59:12
  Finding who those are is going to be the is going to be
• 59:14
  interesting. And I think every VC would say
• 59:16
  they, they have the one that's going to do it or they're,
• 59:18
  they're going to find that right one.
• 59:21
  But we'll see that evolve a lot. Deals we're seeing, I mean, it
• 59:25
  just, I feel like it's just a kind of broken record.
• 59:27
  We're seeing a lot less funding right now.
• 59:29
  I'm just not seeing as much preceding the seed stage.
• 59:32
  I'm seeing a lot more funds move further downstream.
• 59:34
  So getting closer to Series A firms that were precede now
• 59:39
  require $50,000 in revenue before they even look at a deal.
• 59:43
  Like it's, it's tough and then I can't as it as somebody on the
• 59:48
  criteria is getting. Tougher people are being a
• 59:50
  little more careful with their dollars.
• 59:52
  Yeah, it's a tough market enough for for founders.
• 59:55
  I think we went through a very good market for founders not too
• 59:57
  long ago and now we're on the other side of that.
• 59:59
  And that's just what happens with markets.
• 1:00:01
  It just goes up and down and. Right now it's definitely harder
• 1:00:05
  to raise funding. So both on the LP side of things
• 1:00:08
  and on the GP side of things. And then the founders there's
• 1:00:12
  there's a lot less capital available for for earlier stage
• 1:00:15
  companies. So you have to validate it, you
• 1:00:16
  have to push further than you would have before.
• 1:00:19
  At the end of the day, there's still plenty of dry powder
• 1:00:22
  available. There's still a lot of VCs
• 1:00:23
  investing and if you're building something right way, you will
• 1:00:26
  find investors if your company is looking for that Ave.
• 1:00:30
  Jonathan Wallace from Expert Dojo, I want to be the first to
• 1:00:33
  thank you for sharing both your time and your story with us
• 1:00:36
  today. I really appreciate it.
• 1:00:37
  Yeah, thank you for having me. Folks, that's a wrap on another
• 1:00:40
  episode of the Inspired Stories podcast.
• 1:00:42
  Thanks for learning with us today.