Latest / Sutra Squad / Ep. 23 Sutra 2.3 On the Obstacles to Yoga

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Ep. 23 Sutra 2.3 On the Obstacles to Yoga · Sutra Squad

• Seth Barron: What changes as unchanging. What is impure, colored by bias and non virtuous, as pure, free of bias and virtuous. What brings pain, restlessness, dissatisfaction, and distress as that which brings serenity, contentment, fulfillment, and happiness. What is not the self as the self? Hello and welcome to the Sutra Squad podcast brought to you by One Deep Breath. My name is Seth Barron. It is my tremendous privilege and joy to be joined by the amazing, the superstars, the legends, Sally Moore. Welcome. And Sarah Page Hall. Welcome. Why what's what? You're a legend. A legend. You're a legend. You're legendary. Sarah Page, what's a word that describes how you feel right now? Joyful. Joyful, joyful, joyful. Sally, how about you? Committed. Committed. I love I have scattered. This is we should start doing what was your word before you guys chatted for a while. ⁓ yeah. And what is the word now? Okay, that's fun. I'll take that. I went from scattered to committed. That's beautiful. I came in flipping to joyful. Ooh. I came in, questioning to ⁓ clear. Like I was still sort of feeling some feels from yesterday and and like ⁓ you know like yoga is the answer, right? Like connection is the answer. And and I just and like that's that that's what I and like that's the kind of clarity that like ⁓ I don't have any or all the answers by any means, but like I definitely feel some clarity that like This is such a good place for me to invest my time and energy, like with you, both with all of you listening, ⁓ and with this text, because there's always like it it never I'm gonna say that again, because it always connects. It always connects to something now. because yoga is it it's it's it is like everything. So with that just short little casual intro, let's get into our verse this week. So we're at the beginning of the next chapter in the in the Yoga Sutra. There are four chapters. The first chapter is the samadhi pada on the nature of enlightenment, or if there is to be a goal or a final outcome of yoga, it is samadhi, which is ⁓ bliss or union, like full absorption, like like total and complete you like yoga. and and then the second chapter is the sadhana pada. And sadhana means practice. And it often is like ⁓ used in the context of like to have a sadhana is a like to have a personal practice that is typically referenced as like as devotional in nature in some way. Part of what I th well now I think part of what I know draws us here together is that this is a sadhana for the three of us. And we felt that ⁓ as much as we love having the the commitment to be together and study together, it there's an extra layer of accountability when we when we want to offer it as service. ⁓ and that's like our intention here is to is to like welcome you into a sadhana, to be accountable for our sadhana with each other. And and then last week we talked about like the big so the beginning of this chapter it introduces three ideas that we're gonna come to later in a lot more depth. This prescription for what Master Patanjali calls Kriya Yoga, or sometimes is said to be the yoga of action. And it's comprised of tapas fadhyaya and ishvara pranidhana. And tapas is heat or austerity, or ⁓ I love I I taught to this. Actually tonight, because like I usually teach like a little bit of a week behind. So like ⁓ this that it's ⁓ enthusiasm. I love that that framing. And Tapas is enthusiasm. ⁓ Sarah Page and I went to a workshop recently where another incredible teacher, literally the guy who like wrote the book on yoga anatomy, and that is not an exaggeration, the guy who actually wrote the book, Yoga Anatomy. If you've ever done a teacher training, you've probably read like you probably have that book on your shelf. And it was such a privilege to study with him. And he just like so organically generated this whole teaching on tapas during that workshop about how tapas is the is the friction of going against like habit or default. I love that. And so like there's and there's an enthusiasm to that too, right? It requires enthusiasm to interrupt inertia. And then svadhyaya is usually translated as the study of self. I love that I'm gonna paraphrase this, but I think it was from Nishala Nishola Joy Devi that like the practice of yoga is not to understand yoga, it's to understand the one who practices yoga. So almost I think it's she's talking about the sto the study of the sutras. That's it. The study of the s yeah, yeah, thank you. Thank you, Sally. It's the I mean it's also the Bhagavad Gita, the yoga is the journey of the self through the self to the self. And the and so like that that like we are a powerful place of study. To study the content of your own mind, to cultivate the seed of the observer, to be curious. I was I actually use this reference in class today. Like sometimes I think of myself as like, like, you know, in the cartoon in like cartoons when the anthropologists in the pith helmets like watch from behind the bushes. They like watch the natives. And it also has these like slightly racist over undertones sometimes, or the like the animals, right? Like I think of myself as like I will be like ⁓ in a pith helmet, like exploring like who is this who is this? Person, what did what just happened on the screen? I have no idea. There's some effect that when I made a weird little gesture, I don't know how I did that, but we'll just sort of go with it. Okay, cool. If you're listening to this, ⁓ maybe check us out on YouTube and you could see. Or ⁓ Sarah Page is on mute and just cackling. I can see her howling over there in your jersey. I'm waving across the river. so then so svathyaya that like like like Is also intelligence. And it's not intelligence as like ⁓ the knowledge of a fact. It's like an intelligence that is like the bodily wisdom that arises from within. And it's the intelligence, I think, of discernment to be able to say, like, this is this, and this is not this. without judgment, but discernment to really cultivate that that clarity. And then Ishvara Pranidana. Ishvara is for lack of a better term, that let's say the divine of your understanding, right? Your direct personal embodied experience of something you could call God or something bigger than yourself. And I love how sometimes the Sanskrit can like give so much depth to the meaning of surrender to God or to divine. Pra is before like prasarita, like in a like in a forward fold. or ⁓ and then knee. is within like the niyamas, they turn the inward or underneath. And so to put before and within you is literally like is like if you like it's a gesture to bow, like when you think about what that feels like. So that these three these three are the actions, the fundamental actions of yoga. And it's also quite fascinating that these three are repeated later as the ni in the niyamas. ⁓ they're the last three Niyamas, the personal observances of the yogi. And then in the second, so ⁓ so Master Patanjali gives us this essential, very like distilled ⁓ path of the yoga of action. And then the second verse is that these these these practices help us minimize obstacles and attain samadhi. And then in the third verse of the Yoga Sutra, Master Patanjali describes the five fundamental kleshas, klishas, or obstacles to yoga. And that is the verse that we're going to explore today. So, as we do every week, I will chant the verse. And if it is possible where you are and it is safe to do so, maybe just notice your asana, notice your seat, and find a little bit of length. And a little bit of depth, right? Like feel the weight of your body in your sitting bones or on your feet. And if it's safe and you are so inclined, you could close your eyes and bring your hands together. Take a deep inhale through your nose. Open your mouth and let it all go. And for one vibration of om, breathe in. Chanting Yoga Sutra two point three. Avid shini v. Avidas mit vles. A vidas mit shini ve. So this is a literal list of these five fundamental obstacles, and they are avidya, asmita, raga, abhinevesha. So let's just start to take them one at a time. And we begin with what is said to be the root of all the rest is avidya. Avidya is a really big word it appears in many many lineages it appears in many ⁓ it has a it has a strong presence in buddhist philosophy it is often translated as ignorance sometimes I like the translation misknowing excuse me or unreal cognition I believe is from the textbook of yoga psychology And I'm just gonna sh I'm just gonna share a little bit from Reverend Jagannath Carrera's ⁓ inside Patanjali's words. He writes about this really, really beautifully. Avidya, ignorance, translates literally as not knowing. While there is almost a negative connotation associated with the word ignorance, regarding it as not knowing reveals shades of meaning pertinent to the seeker. And he goes on. ⁓ and describes like to be unaware of the spiritual nature of self, the truths that are known, but the individual is not inspired to engage them, the not knowing that one might ⁓ might not be open to, or you might you might actually oppose, or just the imperfect knowing, right? The journey toward depth of knowing. And he says, Avidya is the ultimate cause of all suffering. It is not just any kind of not knowing. In spiritual contexts, avidya refers to the continued, deeply ingrained misperception of one's essential identity as the body-mind instead of the seer self. The root vid suggests that ignorance is not a simple state of not knowing facts, but it is, in some way, a state of not being engaged with life. A vidya is not feeling, experiencing, discovering, or recognizing. A vidya is a passive state, a way of being that withdraws from the fullness of life. I'll come back to some more Buddhist context, but let's get through the re let's get through the let's just get through the understanding of just like what are these klashas? So the first is a vidya. The second is asmita. Does either of you guys wanna get into asmita? Like what does asmita mean? Mis identification? Is that the ego? Yeah, that's the ego. That's the ego. You got it. Yeah. Yeah. Egoism is one often translation, or like I am I like that. I amness. I amness. So it's the sense of just like the separateness of I is ⁓ is the is what arises from our misunderstanding of the nature of self. As if like, you know, sometimes I think of like Morpheus in the Matrix saying to Neo, like, do you think that's are your breathing? Right. Or the little kid who holds up the spoon, he goes, You know what the the secret is, or like what the real do you just have to know the truth that there is no spoon? It's a little bit of that, right? That like the I amness is believing that I somehow have an I amness that is separate from or distinct and different or somehow like disconnected. It's limiting, right? Like I think a lot of my life I lived with I am shy and I really didn't step up. To receive awards behind a microphone, because if I am shy, I don't stand behind a microphone. Like it's funny to once I see, like, am I really shy or am I a little bit more reserved? You know? So I think it's a lot of the limiting labels we put, you know, ego can also be all kinds of things, but it's limiting. I've also thought that that ego sometimes gets a bad rep, to be honest with you. I mean, if we didn't have a little bit of ego, we wouldn't be on this podcast. We wouldn't be able to do it. You know? There's good ego and bad ⁓ no, not good ego. And I don't like good and bad. I don't like those those words. But I mean, there has to be some confidence. Maybe that's the word instead of ego. There has to be some confidence. Yeah. And so if you have confidence, it you know, if it can stay a confidence and then there's the overconfidence which lends itself into egoism. So I just answered my own sort of question around That's the beauty of Samsung, right? We start talking about this out loud. Yes. And we're like, ⁓ wait, I just got to that. Yeah, amazing. So now let's look at these two, Raga and Dvesha. So raga is ⁓ sometimes it's translated as attachment or pleasure. And Dvesha is ⁓ aversion or pain or dislike or repulsion. So fascinatingly, like we think of like pleasure is good and pain is bad. and we do have somewhat of like a entrained and even just like a biological tendency toward. Pleasure and away from pain. It's partially a survival mechanism, right? Our taste buds evolved so that like poison is very bitter and tastes bad. So like don't eat that. And that the things that we needed, especially in small supply when they were hard to find when we were hunters and gatherers, like sugar and fat, were attracted to, or we have a natural attraction toward. ⁓ of course, now we're like consuming those things at a different. Scale and like it's turning on turning us into all kinds of other, you know, other ways around. But that fast I just think it's so fascinating that like Master Pithanjali lists both the seeking of or the attachment to pleasure or the aversion of displeasure are equally obstacles to yoga. And then the last, Abhini Vesha, clinging to life. Now, what's fascinating too is that like a Pinavesha, this tendency toward clinging to life is observed in even like single-celled organisms who or like the way like a a worm will move away from a flame because it knows that if it goes toward the flame, it will burn. It's too hot. Like there's a send a self-preservation instinct and an instinct to procreate or to propagate. And and yet this idea of clinging to life is is an is listed as an obstacle. And it's I I think it's sort of fascinating that it's said to be the most subtle and present and even in the wisest of us, even in the wisest yogis. It is a deeply ingrained, like survival mechanism. I wanted to if I I'm gonna jump in real quick. Yeah, because ⁓ I thought I was gonna go one way with this, but oops, I'm not. I'm gonna go a different way. ⁓ because I was really loving, and I might go back to it, ⁓ Sachatananda's translations and and takes on it. But boy, after rereading Light on the Yoga Sutras by ⁓ BKS Ayangar, I'm kind of really loving what he says. When he talks about Vaisha, love of life, fear of death, ⁓ no, that's Abhin Vesha, ⁓ hate, dislike, abhorrence, enity. So I'm like, what's that? And so I looked it up. And I love this because we are in a you know, our countr our world is in a a a deep seated, you know, experience of enmity. It's a enmity enmity. Formal noun, deep seated, active, and often mutual and you don't hear this word often, mutual hatred, hostility, or ill will between parties. It represents the state of being an enemy, characterized by intense antagonism. rather than minor temporary displeasure. And I mean that is so harsh. And it's just to me, that's just really interesting. And you know, because I think that in our society we tend to water things down. We don't want to say words like hatred or, you know, absolutes, I guess is what I'm trying to say. But when it comes when it comes to, you know The afflictions they are absolutes. You know, so call it what it is. I think we've gotten in a I have, I'll speak from I, I have gotten in a way of you know, d especially when we work in studios, right? Or in gyms or whatever it is that we when we work with people and we working and we're teaching yoga asana, we don't want to upset anybody. So we work really hard not to upset anybody. But sometimes things need to be said. There are ways to say them, but when we see people having such issues, say with You know, Avidya, because of ignorance, ⁓ because of ego, because of attachment, because of hatred, then there there is something to speak to. We can do it with love, but there is something to speak to. So anyway, that just I was like, oof. Seems so harsh, but aren't afflictions harsh? I mean, ⁓ sometimes the truth is harsh. Yeah. I mean there are ways to give truth. Truth isn't easy. There's ways to be kind. But clarity is also kind. Right. There's a real kindness, even if it's a little bit of you know, I actually had a relative once say this to me. Guilt goes away, but resentment festers. Resentment is like often like the holding back of the truth, the self-censorship, the ⁓ I don't want to rock the boat. But it's so toxic, right? It's so toxic. It's toxic to to the resenter, way more than to the resented. But isn't it a little asmita? Isn't it a little ego? Yes. As if somehow, well, because then we're taking, isn't it ego? To take responsibility for someone else's experience. Which is again like that that that deeply subtle but really powerful shift of the the ability to speak truth with kindness, right? I know it's hard and I I just gotta, you know. The ego is to somehow like there's also an ego in like managing someone. As if somehow again, like you're responsible for them or how they feel, versus right, versus just speaking to your own experience confidently, clearly, kindly. Because that too has its roots in avidya. Right. Like I love the definition. A few verses later, I'll spell I'll spare the Sanskrit, but I'll say in so in verse 2.5. Master Patanjali, and then he goes on to give definitions of each of these, ⁓ each of these kleishas. And the the one this this I think about all the time. Ignorance, Avidya, is regarding the impermanent as permanent, the impure as pure, the painful as pleasant, and the non-self as the self. Right? Like the temporary and the permanent, like to mistake those two. And how many times have Have any of us had that moment where we like have this story that if we just like ⁓ like it would be forever if this were to come to be, right? Or like another way of saying that is ignorance is rooted in misperception. It is due to experiencing, this is from Master Carrera, you're talking about Carrera, what changes as unchanging. What is impure, colored by bias and non-virtuous. As pure, free of bias, and nerd and virtuous. What brings pain, restlessness, dissatisfaction, and distress as that which brings serenity, contentment, fulfillment, and happiness. What is not the self as the self? In that is bypass. Right. Where we use these practices to avoid as opposed to be with or confront. And I don't mean confrontational, like, you know, I mean like when we seek to dissociate as opposed to deepening our experience of very fine line, very subtle. There are a hundred percent times where like I've teetered back, I'll admit, right? Like I teeter back and forth. We have all done. Like there are days when you're like, God, I just need to get on a mat and move my body. And these thoughts are just like a flavor of crazy that I really don't like. And I just need to put new other thoughts in there. Or like maybe that's just ujae breath. And I just want to sweat so I can just be dis like be distracted. Like tricky. It's really tricky. Super tricky. Now, it's also sometimes very useful to be like, you know what? I just need to walk away from these thoughts. So when they come back, and they will, I have just a little bit more clarity. I've burned away a little bit of my own bullshit. And maybe I can come back to them and see them in a slightly shifted way. Isn't that how it always happens too? I mean, like, ⁓ I know that we've said this on here privately, you know. To each other about ourselves, it's like this would never this I would never have responded this way a year ago, a month ago, a week ago, you know, a second ago. But it's like the gra I really do I really want to reference this because I love what ⁓ Swami Sachananda said. He just has such a beautiful way of of ⁓ seeing this. He goes, he says the order is also significant, and I like it because the sutras are in order, right? The sutras build on each other. as do the Kleshis. And so he says the order is also significant because of ignorance of okay, let me start again. Because of ignorance of the self, egoism comes. Because of egoism, there is an attachment to things for the ego's selfish pleasure. Because sometimes the things that we are attached to do not come or are taken away. Hatred, enmity, for those who get in our way comes in, and finally, Because we are attached to things we are afraid ⁓ to things and afraid of death, there is clinging to life and the body. Thank you. God, this just came up on a totally separate unrelated podcast, but you there's that great peanut vish. Like, well, let's let's go through them in a little bit of order. And it just reminded me about the Moonstruck quote. So it is that fundamental misunderstanding of the self and the not-self that arises the ego. And this again, like it's a very like. There are times when our like a a the little bit of ego can give enough to be confident and it is useful. In the same way that like pleasure and pain aren't good or bad. They are experiences. When we have that overdeveloped sense of ego, is like what it gives rise to is a tendency to think that somehow we deserve pleasure and should be overly like avoidant of pain. And that also doesn't mean that we go seek pain to balance our pleasure. I don't know if anybody could manage such a complex balance sheet. They can push us away from center. They can Pull us when we are just like seeking pleasure and running away from pain, away farther away from the truth. I think that's what I really I put a lot of my attention this week on the Avidya. Because I did think if I could know my big capital T true self, then the other things are simply. Pleasure or pain, the amount of ego that causes you to get up and get moving in the day, or creates the confidence to stand in front of the room. The ⁓ fear of death becomes more of a recognizing that death is coming and how do I want to spend my limited amount of time in this world? So that's what I kept thinking, I just gotta put my attention on the vidya, the misunderstandings that I have with myself, and then the rest of it becomes Simply pleasure or pain, but not a diversion. ⁓ and I loved, I'm gonna share with you ⁓ from the secret power of yoga from Nikola Joidevi, ⁓ 2.3, dissolving the five klashias or veils brings forth the radiance of the divine self. And what she went on to describe, and I loved she titled this section, ⁓ Keep the Light Shining Brightly. And I The description term veils. Yeah. Yeah. But what I loved is she said in the beginning, you see the light shining brightly in a brand new kerosene lamp. And we all have the light, whether it's the sun is shining behind the clouds or my light is shining inside of me, or the light in a new kerosene lamp is a beautiful flame in the middle of this beautiful clear glass. And then over time, soot dims. the perception of the light, right? The light is and the more you turn up the light through soot, the blacker the glass bec becomes. And I, until the light is completely obscured, it's not gone. The sun is still there, even though it's a cloudy day in California, you know, it's not gone. But what I love, she went on to say, you can't just turn up the thing the flame. The yoga practices dissolve the veils in a process similar to cleaning the glass of the kerosene lamp. With the new clarity, the light shines clear and bright again. And that's what for me really came through this week: was like, I really need to take time to notice when I'm acting in all lowercase self. Because then all the things following. become a problem. But when I can have be clear and bright, the things following just become a little way to navigate. Like, ⁓ well, I'd rather have a matcha than a coffee right now. I don't know. I mean, you know, it it doesn't matter that much until it becomes like this this video is getting so big. I don't know who I am. And then I got to blame the world for everything that's happening to me. And then I got to hate or love things. And then I'm like, shit, how do I hold on to these things if something someone, you know, I'm going to die and what's going happen to the things? That's such a beautiful teaching. I love that analogy of the kerosene lamp because because that's exactly right. Like, you know, the sun shines whether or not we see it in the sky. Like we're just turned away from it. It doesn't change that the sun is shining. But if we want to see it and we turn it up, even if there's more soot, it just keeps adding more soot. And so if you don't actually clean the glass, like you're never gonna see the light. And to me, the practices are cleaning the glass. The practices, you just do a little bit of wiping down every day and thing. I have to say that earlier today I took a yoga class and there was a ⁓ guide dog in his last day of training in class. And I don't usually get to go in the morning. So it was I was new to this sweet golden retriever. So page it was you in my class. But it was such a sweet dog. But because this was in my mind, like this is seriously me. And I don't know if this is going to sound ridiculous and I'll lose all credibility. But I was looking at this sweet, I think it was a nine month old golden retriever. And it seemed like it wasn't bothered. We were practicing yoga and it seemed quite attentive. And I thought, ⁓ its job. It's looking around the room. It's making sure that it's I I don't know if they're called a handler. The the person that was training it is okay. No one was paying any attention to it. It had its vest on. And then by the time we were in Shavasana, I heard from the dog. But I thought But coming back to this, I thought that dog knows who it is. I'm making this up, so I you know it might be silly, but what it appeared to it appeared the dog knew what it was, the dog was clear about its job, it it wasn't ruffled, you know, trains went by, motorcycles went by, the teacher was moving around the room. The dog appeared to be unbothered. And then it just when it was Shavastana, it was like in Shavastana too. ⁓ I know what this job is. He understood the assignment. ⁓ That's so that's such a beautiful again, it's a beautiful way to understand the teaching that like we think we are supposed to have all the right answers. Right. We think that that rightness is the way to resolve disagreement. ⁓ I love the Sharon Gannon quote. Do you wanna be right or do you wanna be free? I wanna be right, but I I but I and I wanna be free, but I God I love being right. But even that, every one of those traps of the mind, you can actually really look. And if you apply the principles that we talked about last week of tapasvadhyaya and ishvarapanidanha as the yoga of action in the face, like that's cleaning the glass in the face of these obstacles. So, like, like my rightness. requires my discomfort of wrongness to address. Like it requires the dis actually not even wrongness, actually. It requires the discomfort to let go of right or wrong. If I really try to push myself, and that is some there's some heat there. It is uncomfortable. That is a top that is some top us. What is wrong with saying I don't know? Isn't that amazing? For the longest time I had such a huge aversion. No, no, no. Like I have a huge aversion to I don't know. And I th like I could talk about all the ways of my own entrainment, like Seth, always a pleasure to have in class, like ac having academic success, whatever that means. That my that my particular learning style happens to be very aligned to like a lot of educational institution learning styles. And so I was able to navigate school with a lot of ease and success. But then it meant that I got very uncomfortable in not knowing. And like that is like a like literally gets to that exact definition of avidya of the misknowing, which is mistaking the temporary and the permanent, the pl like pain, pleasure, and self, not self. So then like that's the svadhyaya of intelligence to say, like, wow. I had a lot of extrinsically validated success. And it was never enough. It never really satisfied. And like I have to be willing to exercise that discernment and curiosity about my experience. So that I think then, like that the clarity I can cultivate is what I can offer back. to the world and to the divine as a sense of my expression of purpose of dharma. Right. So like in the face of pleasure and pain, do you just ex can we accept them? without like grabbing onto them or pushing them away because they're temporary. That's the plets, the temporary and the permanent. I think like I know when it comes to like uncomfortable emotions or emotional states that we have have a real cultural entrainment to avoid. For me, those are anger, sadness, anger and sadness. And like there's a whole bunch, those are like big macro emotional states. I'm definitely not allowed to be angry. Doesn't mean I don't get angry. It means I'm not good at expressing my anger. Or I mean I have work to do. And and sadness is very uncomfortable. But like we're not also we're not supposed to be happy all the time. Like that doesn't that doesn't that's not it either. Cause you could also translate Raga D Vesha, you could look at that as the little bit of like happiness and sadness. Like there's so much toxic happy sh junk. Out there. Like, do this thing and you'll be happy. And it's and it's toxic because like it just like you're not supposed to be happy all the time. There was somebody I would say, How are you doing? You know, I he would come into class, how you doing? Because I'm always great. And I just wanted to say, really? You know? And then it, you know, it's it's it's maybe he's a realized being being and maybe he is always great. I don't know. Please come on the podcast if ⁓ so. Tell us tell us how to do it. But I mean, there's the bypass, Seth. That's the bypass. Is like, you know, instead of saying this happened today and it really bothered me, or, you know, whatever. And, you know, and it doesn't mean that you have to Sally and I talk about this. We both have a hard time crying. And so it's like, it doesn't mean that you have to. If somebody asks your opinion about something, you don't have to like be all upset or what just just express. This is how I'm feeling. Sadness, the experience of sadness gives us greater access to the experience of joy. Like you know what I mean? Like I don't know. We need the contrast. Yeah. You know, knowing that we're gonna fear of death can also be ⁓ teaching us to really use our time wisely. You know, I mean it's all it's it's way too much. That's also the intelligence of the svadhyaya to be that discernment, to like it is a little bit, again, not in a toxic, like cliched way, but in a very authentic way. Like this is all for you, for me. Right. Like this is all based on this sort of a f ⁓ a spiritual context too, that like this material realm is just sometimes I call it like it's the karma factory. Right. Like as in we're just here to like crank out, crank through, crank out, crank through, crank out, crank through the karma that we came with and the next cycle that we put forward. Right. Like, and we're just like the, you know, like hi-ho, hi-ho, off to the karma factory we go. Now, maybe if we try toward some amount of awakening, we might like take like well, like I think of it as like like maybe just one step sort of up the you know, toward the ascension out of the, you know, the the swirl of the material realm. But like, you know, that's like the amazing gift and miracle of human birth and the incredible, I you could say, responsibility of human birth. And for those of us, like if you're listening to the sound of our voice, you might have an inclination towards something that feels like awakening. And I'm not in any way claiming to be an awakened being to be clear. I am someone who hopes to aspire toward some glimpse of awakening because otherwise we're just asleep. We're ignorant. We mistake the temporary for the permanent. Because, like, how I feel right now. What if I don't all like again, like it's like that fear of sadness is like if I feel this way all the time, I maybe I'll never feel anything else. Well, no, it's just looking at Ruben Vasquez's commentary. And he just really talks about how many of the obstacles we face are self-inflicted. And he talks about just forgetting your true nature causes you to get entangled in stories and imagination, such as who you think you are, what you think others would want you to do. And I love it. Some point he goes, and other similar nonsense. Like sometimes when you read this out loud, I'm like, that is such a good job, like such a good, so much similar nonsense. But then he I think the last line that I underlined was the yoga journey consists of meeting yourself where you are just as you are. You're not stuck there. It's not permanent. But if we don't meet ourselves where we are, I have been very guilty of this in my life, trying to meet myself somewhere else. Or when I'm somewhere else, I'll be nicer to myself. And it's like, no, that's just more of this forgetting who you are. Yeah. And so another funny ⁓ the pernicious I'll be happy when. ⁓ yeah, and and what if the truth is I can be happy right now when I accept myself as I am and where I am? There's always room for change and changing the path and all that, but without knowing where you are right now, how do you move forward? Like you know, there's a great line in the office. It's one of the best lines. And I think we've referenced it once before, but I'm gonna reference it again because it's exactly what you're talking about. And I think it's Andy Bernard says, I wish somebody would have told me that the good old days are happening right now. I that's that's not the correct I mean, that's wildly paraphrased, but that's what it is. Right. That's the temporary and the permanent. Like again, it's like we we you know, like how many times have we ⁓ I'm guilty of it, but like, you know, if it only could be the way it was. But it can't be. Because that's not how time works. And nothing ever will be. It's like the actual impossibility and the like like talk about like the the express train to suffering. And I think it is. It's like you could just girl, you just got on the express train downtown. And like that is a one-way train. And I, you know, and it's so interesting to notice too, like how. These ideas of misunderstanding and misknowing show up in even in Christian theology, we see through a glass darkly. They come up in in the I mean, this is literally a direct connection to one of the most fundamental constructs of Buddhist philosophy, which are the four noble truths. That the first noble truth is that we suffer. Every Single one of us suffers in our own way and in a collective way. We suffer. It is part of the nature of this material realm, is that we suffer. And that the root of that suffering is our misunderstanding and that avidya is the same word that is used. To to to describe like what is the source of that suffering, that it comes from our misunderstanding and a lack of deep, deep study. And then the good news of the noble truths, which is that every single one of us possesses an inherent Buddha nature that we are fundamentally good, that there is goodness within every single person, even the ones who do terrible things. We've talked about this, that there's a goodness within us. And that there is a path. There is a path by which we might possibly reduce the suffering of all sentient beings, that we might suffer less ourselves, we might guide those we love toward a little bit less suffering. Right, because there was a person who actually did follow that path and who attained samadhi or nirvana, and that was the Buddha. Like, and and so there it is. Like it's and by the way, like the say the Kleshas just they show up all over. They show up in the Ten Commandments. Right? Like, and yet they like it's it's just so amazing how universal these ideas are. And like we could do a whole additional hour. Like none of this was the inquiry that I planned because we're just sort of talking about the nature of the text and organically generating examples of how they show up in our lives. you know, I ⁓ I came on and like, you know, I I I told I told you guys I gave myself 24 hours. I think I'm complete. Like I made a big I did something that I'm not proud of. And it wasn't like it wasn't like I int I didn't do something intentional. ⁓ I didn't like, you know, commit a crime. I did something unkind. That was not my best self. And it caused a friend emotional distress. I think it's fair to say, without going into any detail, because it's just not necessary. And as soon as I realized it, and like literally it was last night, and I it was like around this time of night, and I just was like, I hope he's up because I gotta call him. And I called him and I said, I'm so sorry. And I and I said, I'm just I'm getting you know, and like I didn't say this to him because like I don't I didn't put my emotional burden of processing how shitty I feel. On him, to him, it was like, I recognize that I did something that was not my best self. I feel terrible that it hurt your feelings. Thank you for telling me that it hurt your feelings and being honest when I acknowledge the mistake that I made. And, you know, now we'll hopefully do some work around repair. I'll certainly do some work around repair. That required some heat. ⁓ I felt some heat. My face got super flushed. Right. Like it required the intelligence to just be like, ⁓ God, I have to just own it. And like the surrender that like I didn't try to manage him and his response to it. And I'm not saying ⁓ like again, this is so perfected. I'm saying I do think I'm I was able to at least come back from a place that felt both like it had integrity, was ⁓ honest. ⁓ but like again, it's all right here that like I I made a mistake. It was definitely born out of some ego. And then like had the moment of like, ⁓ God, I don't want to deal with it. I want to like avoid the pain and discomfort and like, you know, be told I'm okay and that I'm, you know, that I like and it had to like even be with that. Like, don't ex like I quit I like remember I was listening to the phone ring and I was like, he might tell you to go F off and you're just gonna have to be okay with that too. Like I can't let this be about like his forgiveness in the moment. I have to just like be open to what his experience is. And like a clinging to life in this case is like, you know, he's a friend who I've been friends with for a very long time. And I have a clinging to that that I know that like, again, it's that fine line. It's like, it's healthy to want to be in connection. It crosses over when it's like, I need it. Or somehow I'm seeking validation in it. And it's like a great example, like all this stuff, it shows up all everywhere when you like once you if you're listening, I I hate to inform you that like you'll never unhear this and you'll never start to unsee this. And you will challenge yourself if you really internalize this and start to consider, you know, what this means for you. I think if the if we hope to do anything in this podcast, it's not to give you any answers, dear listener, truly, it's not to tell you a right answer. Because we are not in that business. I think we're deeply in the business of trying to inspire, like invite you into your practice, your sadhana, and see for yourself. Like you you try it on, you go do it, you think about like where do you lean toward pleasure and away from pain? Where do you where are you investing and like? Also, even the like last day that I've been telling myself what a terrible person I am, that is also just ego. I was thinking the same thing earlier. So I'm glad you brought this up because I think that there's a lot of ego in in in not calling you this, but in victimization. People who who sit in that I, you know, the the victimization, the victimization, as opposed to making the repair, as opposed to maybe choosing a different way of life or a different Why me? That's so easy. It's so easy to sit in that and it's as opposed to going through the tapas, the friction, the dis-ease of moving through whatever you need to move through. And there's a lot of ego in it. There's a lot of ego in it. Sometimes I'm like, I wish we were doing a different sutra because I feel like as I Bring this to my attention and then move through life. Exactly things like what happened with you last night, they come up because it's like, ⁓ because this sutra wants me to really have a real life example. But I'd love to read something that I think is also really brilliant, and it's from Reverend Jagannov Carrera and it's in Sutra two point five. But the commentary says, in order to rid ourselves of ignorance, we need to be able to recognize its manifestation. He goes on to say a sign that ignorance is losing its influence on us is when our habitual identification with external possessions and attainments begins to diminish. We begin to realize that we are not greater if we have them or less if we lose them. Our true identity, the self, is beyond all of these conditions. And I feel like in many ways that's what you just described, Seth, and how you moved from Where you were to where you are. Well, I I'm very deeply lucky. I will say this too, that I have exercised the discernment to also like recognize the power of association and really cultivate relationships with people who I can say this, I I mean this very deeply about both of you, who can hold who can hold me in my moments of triumph and in my moments of ⁓ Tragic failure. And argue that they're the same. Yeah. They're just moments. Not yours personally, but you know what I mean? Yeah, that's amazing. Well, I have to I'm gonna share one more very quick story because on Friday I had jury duty and I don't know how it works in other states because I've only had it in California, but I got the blue card. Do you guys get a blue postcard? I I've never been on a jury. You can't my father was a judge. I I couldn't do it. ⁓ I'm gonna now use your father as well because I do have a police officer in the family that I never get anywhere, but you get the blue card. And I feel my heart rate starts to go, I don't have time to have the blue card. And then they've started since COVID is they bring in like five hundred people on a Zoom call and they try to fill five juries. And I'm sure it's much quicker like it's different than bringing people less people in more often. Anyway, I was watching the judge and I was watching me like they tell me to be here at eight and they're not here till eight ten and they're not testing the microphone. Like I could just see the like criticism of the whole system. And then they had us watch a video that I followed the rules. It told us to watch it before we got on, and I did. And so I was just working through ego and hate and love, all the things. And then I watched the judge and she came on and she seemed to be unbothered. There were rules. Turn on your camera. Don't speak. Turn off your microphone. And she just seemed so calm with the chaos of managing five hundred people. And I thought she is understands who her true self is. So once again, just through a guide dog and a judge on a jury Zoom call. First of all, I would love for you to be on a jury. I have I have described our little trio our little trio thusly. Seth is the brains. I'm the golden retriever, and you are the conscience. I would love to have you on a jury. Because you do. You you know, you you study, you do the the pre-work, you do all this stuff. I kind of come on and go, let's just Play and Seth is the one who sets it all up. As soon as my true self gets big and bold, I won't I won't prepare. I won't do the homework. I don't think so. I think so, and it's part of the magic of Sally. I think it's part of what you do. Yeah, it's the magic of Sally. Please don't change that. No ma'am. Okay, so we're gonna have to bring this around somewhere. I think I'm gonna do it. First of all, just like, if nothing else, too, we just hope to serve as inspiration that like you take these ideas and see where they apply for you. Like literally, like right now in your life, look at where are you? What is that truth that you are really afraid to face? Where is it manifesting from a place of of like the eunus, right? The sethness, salliness, serapigeness, and like. Can you observe that even to start to see it in operation where and how it gives rise to like pleasure seeking a pain avoidance and like clinging to this material life in one way or another? If you I I I can assure you, these are in operation somewhere in your life. I'm relatively certain of it. So we are going, let's do ⁓ let's do inquiry first. I think I just offered my inquiry. Which is to say, like like just like get into it. Like I sometimes it's useful to say like if you've got something that like is sticking in your craw, if there's a thought you can't get out of your head, like if there's a person who's really bothering you, like that's a great place to like pick up the calls coming from inside the house. So Sally, what is your suggested inquiry for this week? So I have ⁓ how might not knowing who you are, ego likes, dislikes, and fear of death be getting in the way of your life? Could you consider that the klechos are not the enemy but places to compassionately inquire within? And can you see the power of getting to know your big T true self again? Freedom. I mean that is some that's freedom, right? That is freedom. It is. Kaivalya moksha. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Page, what's some inquiry from you, my love? ⁓ I want to go back to Avidya because it is the the anchor and it's referenced. It is and it's referenced over and over and over again, not just in this sutra, but all the way through. Where is your get and get flat with it? It'll be all by yourself. Write it down. No, you don't have to tell anybody or do or whatever, but where is your ignorance? Is it, you know, it in the way that maybe you feel about somebody, the way that you feel about yourself, the way that where is your ignorance? Remember, ignorance also isn't like I'm stupid. That's not the kind of ignorance we're really talking about. What it is is, you know, it's it's different. And so get really clear about it. Where are you ignorant? I think of that as like the thing you know and will not admit to be true. Don't it's too dark. It feels too dark. It feels too scary. It too big. It feels scary. Exactly. Exactly. You know, but and it's probably not. It's probably not. It's probably not as big and scary. Case in point, and I know we're landing the plane, but I have to say it. I remember when Elizabeth, my daughter who has Down syndrome, was going into c ⁓ kindergarten and we wanted to do back to school night, the teacher and the social worker wanted to let the parents know and blah, blah, blah. And I said, That's fine. And I said, Listen, I want them to say the name. I want these little kids to say the name. Down syndrome. I don't want it to be scary. What is scary is what is inside the closet and it's dark and we don't open the door. Open the door, say the name. Here's my daughter. She's she's great. And you know what? Those kids were amazing with her because they were not. Scared. It wasn't frightening because we talked about it openly. So take the take the fear out of ignorance. Take the fear out of avidya. And perhaps it's just not that scary. And I want to really quick point out because Seth read this in the beginning, but I really highlighted it and it was from Reverend Jagannath Khera, but Avidya ignorance, it translates literally as not knowing. It feels a little bit more gentle. Not knowing, you know. Okay. So we also offer asana instruction, all three of us. We're we and we aspire to be yoga teachers. And for all those other teachers out there, ⁓ what's a teaching tip based on the klechas for that might inspire a moment in a class coming to a studio near you? Sally, what do you think? I'm going with Drishti and not just Drishi, but where are you looking? What are you looking for? Yeah. Can you see what's right in you? And can you see what's within you? So it's like really getting tight on your looking. Yeah. Yeah. Because from one to everything. Mastery Yangar, Rima gave this my teacher Rima gave this quote about how like Master Yangar talks about when we truly cultivate Drishti, like every pore in your skin becomes like an eye. Like you can see with your feeling eyes. You can see, but but it requires like you have to go from one to all, right? Like it doesn't mean like ⁓ I'm looking around at everything. Actually, then you're gonna see nothing. See one thing, see everything. Sarah Paige, what about you? Teaching tip. I read this quote by Rumi and I love it. And it kind of and it does go into what we talked about tonight. Recognize that unlearning is the highest form of learning. So get your ego out of your teaching and consider that you don't know how to teach, that you've and you're looking at what however you teach completely differently. We all teach in the same lineage, Baptiste Yoga, we have sort of a script, blah, blah, blah. Look at how look at Down Dog completely differently. How do you teach it? Do you teach it the same way every single time? Consider unlearning the way that you've always done the thing and do it in a different way. Sort of like you said about Drichtti, looking at things differently and in a different way. Avidya is seeing I think things the same way all the time. Try to unlearn the temporary for the permanent. Right. So consider you know, all learning is unlearning. So unlearn something and just sort of switch your Drishti and you know, that kind of thing. Okay, I'll give a fun riff. inspired by not the th what I thought I was gonna do, but it's a ⁓ a different perspective, which is Socrates, all learning is remembering. Ooh. So if you think about something you've deeply know to be true, it was probably true for a lot longer than you were willing to acknowledge it. Right? The real, real learning, right? Like, and then It it's like, how did I not not know that? Like I it it was like as if it's always been there, right? Real wisdom always arises from within. And no matter what brilliance of a teacher, it is never enough to just be conferred upon and then to like like certainly not in the Eastern lineages, where part of what I love about you know, this sort of like contemplative practice and And a lot of lineages of tradition in Buddhism and Sanatan Dharma and Hinduism is like this this like so almost Socratic dialogue, you could say, like with your teacher, and that you're encouraged to ask questions, you're encouraged to question your teacher, you're encouraged to like take the teacher's teaching and and apply it so that you might learn it. But then when you do that, it will not feel like it is from without. It feels like it is from within. And so, like. Even just try on a class where you ask people to like remember, not and and again the and still apply the discernment of like the difference between habit, which is what you were talking about, Sarah Page, of the unlearning, right? The difference between the habit and the immediate presence right now. And to like just like enjoy that as a dance, enjoy that as An unknown as like not as like a to that is that you will not resolve it in this class. And I want to invite you to like dance with it and have some and maybe even have a little fun with it and let it freak you out a little bit and stay. Because what'll arise will feel like it is yours, because it will be. Wow. ⁓ I know. We need a cigarette again. Just like I'm just like It was good. It was really good. No, this is like this is ⁓ I mean, like if this, if this isn't living some yoga, I don't know what is, and I am just ⁓ and I don't mean that from a place of ego. I mean that truly as a place of like that's my embodied experience of this moment, like right now, sitting here with you, feeling a deep sense of connection, a really like a a d of deeply humble reverence for like how. Deep the rabbit hole goes in these ideas, and that like it is so powerful to like hold people's hands who you trust to walk with you on the path. ⁓ not every step and not every, you know, not to do it for, but to do it with is another sutra in action, Maitriyada Subalani, right? That there's tremendous power we gain in friendship and in in in positive and association. I'm so Deeply grateful to be associated to you, to be on this path with you both. and for all of you listening, if you found any benefit from our words and from our study, ⁓ please consider giving us a rating, writing a review, five stars or whatever it is, subscribe, follow. And if you know somebody with whom these words might resonate, please consider sharing a link to this episode or any others that you may have that you may have enjoyed. Like teacher trainings, maybe. Like teacher trainings. If you're in a T T and you want to give some people like some sattva for their chitta, you know, that's one of the ways I say, like that's what I try to listen to a lot. Like, ⁓ you know, sattva goodness, chitta for your mind. I have not listened to a murder podcast in a very long time, by the way. I know it's good for you. Very proud of myself. Have not turned on dateline. Good. Very proud of myself. Not, you know, look, this I'm not saying Dateland's wrong or bad. I'm saying that's No, no, no, no, no. It's just that I was like overwhelmed by murder and serial killers, and it's probably not the best thing for my mind. I'll go with your I'll just take your word. I'll take your word for it. I agree. ⁓ How did we get here? I will not. I don't know. We better get out of here quick. All right, good friends. I love you both so dearly. I love you. Love you, Zen. Thank you, Zelling. Thank you to all of you listening for today, tonight, tomorrow, forever. ⁓ thank you for listening to the Sutra Squad and we will be with you again very soon. Good night. Goodbye.