Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Outdoor Retailers Lindsay Hubley & Sunny Stroeer | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 28

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Outdoor Retailers Lindsay Hubley & Sunny Stroeer | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 28 · Beyond The Trailhead

• speaker-0: All right everyone, welcome back to Beyond the Trailhead. We've got an interesting couple of guests today, not that they're weird or anything like that, but just an incredible ⁓ industry. A ⁓ couple of people here. We have Sunny and Lindsay from Outdoor Retailers with us today. Thank you ladies for being able to be on. speaker-1: It's stuck to be here, Craig. speaker-0: Awesome. Well, I figured we'd have you on. ⁓ You know, we've had a lot of small brands on ⁓ and everything and me being able to attend OR a few times and meeting a bunch of small brands, I thought it'd be great to have you on just to explain a little bit more about outdoor retailer. You know, what it is that small brands can kind of expect from there, but also just the history of OR because me being only there for two years, I know OR has been around for a lot longer. And so would Yeah, without further ado, I'd just love to chat about more about the history of OR and first of all, who you guys are and your roles too. speaker-1: Absolutely. So I'm going to take the lead, I guess, as you briefly introduced me, Craig and Sunny. And I'm the head of the leadership village for Auto Retailer, which is Auto Retailer's industry advisory body that's in charge of directing the programming and the strategy for the show. As we go into 2026 here with a reimagined show in Minneapolis. And, you know, when it comes to the history of the show, well, you say you've been attending for what, you know, the last two years or so. which makes you a relative newcomer to the orbit. I feel like I'm a relative newcomer as well because I've only been going for the last decade. For what it's worth, pardon me. I'm coming straight off a sickness, so I'm trying to not cough too much. But you know, I've been attending OR for about the last decade now and the show itself, of course, has a history of what? More than four decades. You know, it started back in Reno. And really, for a long time, OR has been the gathering that everybody speaker-0: You speaker-1: has to be at if they're in the outer industry, right? That's kind of in its heyday, know, like the arts, the teens, it was just this massive, massive event with two shows a year where you had what, you know, tens of thousands of people in the heyday. don't know, keep me honest on that, Lindsay, was it, it was in the, speaker-2: Yeah, relatively new to outdoor retailers. So we're not there. I was not there in the heyday. But yes, tens of thousands has been reported. speaker-1: Yeah, so, know, a huge, huge show, obviously B2B, you know, where retailers meet brands, where the media shows up and where a lot of, yes, business gets done up, but also where connections are being made, where networking is happening and where the community that the outdoor industry thrives on really, you know, was shaped. And I think what we've seen over time is that, you know, outdoor retailer eventually had a long-term home in Salt Lake City, then moved to Denver, was back in Salt Lake City, and now we found a new home in Minneapolis with with the location moves and with the pandemic, obviously that was a huge disruption ⁓ in 2020, 2021. ⁓ The shape and the scope of the show really changed. ⁓ what we've seen is that as the outer industry changes, what brands and retailers need from a trade show, I think is changing. And that's what we're trying to build and deliver and figure out. with the new show in Minneapolis in 2026. So it's been a really interesting and wild ride for me personally, you know, being in the leadership role that I'm in and being able to work really closely with Lindsay and seeing, you know, just the vision and the commitment behind building a show for the industry that is truly impactful and useful for everybody who's in the room. And that's been really, really exciting. speaker-0: Yeah, that's cool. And for people who are listening or watching, ⁓ whether a small business or just someone who's listening, ⁓ before we get too far in, what exactly is OR outside of a trade show? What are some things that ⁓ OR does that kind of stand out? speaker-1: I'm going to name a couple of things here, and Lindsay, I'm sure that you're going to want to jump in on this as well. in addition to being a trade show, I think what makes OR really unique is that it is ⁓ one very, very intentional and I would call high powered education venue, not just for brands, but specifically also for retailers, because we want to be mindful of the fact that really this is outdoor retail, right? This is a show for retailers. first and foremost for the brands. Yes, without a question, brands are incredibly important, but we really want to support outdoor independent specialty retail, which is a business that's ⁓ stood up quite differently from kind of a P &L perspective than some of the brand side of the business, right? So really, really intentional, really high powered education. We're creating some very intentional gathering and community opportunities and We're doing that with a completely new and re-envisioned to and understanding of what it means to have media at the show. And that's something that think Lindsay is going to want to touch on. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: So thank you for having us, Craig. So I'm Lindsay Hubley. I am the ⁓ SVP of the outdoor and sports group for Emerald. So ⁓ outdoor retailer is a part of that. But we also in the group have Surf Expo. We have Overland Expo. We have collective shows. a good just a good ⁓ really good ⁓ plethora of outdoor shows in this portfolio overall. All very successful in their own right. But outdoor retailer. ⁓ interesting enough, I came on the brand, ⁓ just a few, you know, a few years ago. ⁓ and really, you know, between Sunny and our leadership village, we've been able to strategically move the show, ⁓ and kind of reboot the show in, ⁓ ways that are, are kind of fundamentally different than the ways that used to operate in the past. So as Sunny was mentioning, you know, two main major focuses for us. One is obviously retailers. ⁓ We launched our retailer playbook, which is a half day of ⁓ workshops for just for retailers with top level ⁓ organizers and educators coming in to speak to those retailers and really inspire them in their businesses. The second half of our ⁓ of our education is based on industry day, which is all top level industry topics. Also great speakers ⁓ along those lines. So. know, Audra retailers always had some education, but not super focused in terms of an entire day just built on conference education. So really ⁓ honing in on that piece. ⁓ And then also a lot of networking events that'll happen that day for young and upcoming innovative brands that are just launching in the market. We have a partnership with Founded Outdoors and Garage Grown Gear that we'll be hosting at a Sense Summit, which is just for founded brands. ⁓ and young innovators that are looking to launch. So great programming also on that day. So really hitting on the full industry networking, retailers focused education, and then also really leaning in on making sure that small brands, young brands can really get a path to success at outdoor retailer and launch in the space. ⁓ And then the last pillar of this is really to lean in on media and our new wild reach initiative. So one of the things that we noticed and 10, 15 years ago, outdoor retailers heydays, there were 200, 250 retail outlets, or I apologize, media outlets that would attend. So all representing different brands, editorial from all kinds of different scopes from outdoor focused media to like endemic to each category. of those 200 some odd editors and ⁓ brands, a lot of those have, through consolidation, that landscape has changed ⁓ very much in the last 10 to 15 years. And the rise of the influencer and the storyteller and the creator ⁓ in the space has become one of the most effective media ⁓ conglomerates really. ⁓ in the space today and that's how brands launch their new ideas. It's how innovators get well known. It's how product gets launched today. So formalizing a program for those creators and bringing 150 creators to the show floor this year to really amplify the messages of all of those brands that are launching product on the show floor. ⁓ It's not only gonna amplify the product launch, it'll also get that gear known. ⁓ those creators are coming into our of our orbit through a partnership with PopFly and we'll be segmenting them per what category on the show floor they really identify with. So really great opportunity for even small brands or even big brands that are launching products in the space to really amplify that message, which was one of the keys to the success of the show 10 years ago. And as the media landscape has changed, ⁓ this is a real fundamental value prop that we're providing that is fundamentally different from anyone else in the market. speaker-0: Yeah, no, I think that's how I initially kind of came about wanting to have you all on as I had heard about what you had been doing with PopFly and the creator initiative and everything. And my wife and I, do like a completely different side hustle of social media that we've actually, similar what you're saying, we've brought it into our marketing part that we do when we do photo and video for companies as we've brought that social media aspect into it that that expertise of my wife knows how to do this certain thing. And I'm finding that as I work with brands that are maybe, I'm not saying like they're older, right? Cause I'm just as old, course. But you work with older brands who don't understand it and you have to get that. And I don't know what kind of educational things you have this year for the educational platform of it, but. I hope that there's maybe some social media aspect of it that people can speak to because I think a lot of brands really, they say they know it, but I don't think they really understand ⁓ how much that influencer aspect really plays a part more than anything else. speaker-2: Well, think there's two pieces to that. One is the education, which we are hosting two panels on the show floor. ⁓ One is really about kind of the creator economy and what it's done to the media landscape and how it how, you know, brands are moving forward with that. The other is ⁓ PopFly will be integrated fully into our education system to talking about how their system and also creators in their system have become have been able to build their own kind of media empires as a part of of the outdoor world today and what it can do for brands. So education definitely on the show for. The other thing that's really interesting though, Craig, is not just the brands learning about the influencers themselves, but it has become very budget impacting for you to try to work with, let's say 10 or 15 creators. and to do it in the right way. And a lot of the small brands, these bigger brands, have a lot of budget to maybe support those types of things, but these smaller brands that are up and coming, or maybe they just launched a product, they don't have the same budget that some of these big brands just preferred for them to compete. So in order for OR to really step in and level the playing ground, we're bringing the creators to you. And so all of that product on the show floor, just think of. is like epic content for those creators. They want to learn your story. They want to hear about your product. They want to see what solution have you solved with what you're bringing to the show for. ⁓ And naturally, if your solution is good, and this goes back to how brands show up on the show floor, this is your opportunity to tell your story. So those creators, they're looking for content. speaker-1: Yeah, and I think, you an additional element that we haven't touched on yet is that, obviously the media landscape has shifted and obviously creators are really, really important. And obviously the trust now, you know, has moved from kind of the traditional outlets to the influencer landscape. But I think in addition to just providing education, making sure that brands are connecting with creators and vice versa at the show, there's an aspect here of, you know, coming up with a model. that allows brands to dive into a solution for them, a marketing solution that is scalable and that's systematic, right? Because there are brands out there who absolutely get it to understand just how important it is to work with influencers and to work with creators these days. But I think there probably, possibly isn't a single brand who can be like, you know what, we have a program that we just know, you know, like it runs easily and you know, we understand how the mechanics work and we understand how to scale this. as the business grows, maybe I'm speaking out of turn, there's probably brands out there who have figured out how to do this, but I think they're unicorns, right? I think that the vast majority of brands know that influencers are important. And so they're trying to go and partner with individual influencers. And then they're focused on those individual partnerships and it's hard for them to think about, you know, what the business strategy behind it actually is. So by us partnering with PopFly and bringing in creators at scale and being able to demonstrate in a live fashion, essentially a matching program to say, okay, brands, here are 15 creators that are now working with you within the context of the show. And this is a model that you can go and transport into your daily business model as well. I think that's a really powerful value proposition. speaker-0: Yeah, that's cool. It's funny because even wanting to have this conversation, I didn't even think we were going to kind of go into this whole social media aspect of it. But the more my wife and I are getting all these people wanting to work with us and, ⁓ you know, the trade shows that I've gone to, I feel like the old school way and not the old school, but I know there's different, there's different ⁓ aspects of a business, right? If you want to be in retail versus, you know, direct to consumer and all that and all that stuff. I would be on the show floor of these trade shows and everybody's just waiting for Costco to come around or for REI to come around. And not that that's not good, but it's almost like that's all they're waiting there for. And if they don't get that conversation with those big brands or those big businesses, they feel like they failed, right? But you're bringing in a new aspect of, hey, we're bringing the social media people, the influencers, to you, because I know when I've gone to shows, if I find a unique product, I'm like, ⁓ this is so cool. And I want to talk about it so much. it fills a need. But for a big retailer, they're going to look at that and go, OK, maybe that's just so niche that I don't even want to talk about it. I don't want that in my store because it's not going to sell. But that social media influencer is really going to push that. And all of you're going to have all these orders on, whether it's Amazon or your own website and everything. ⁓ speaker-2: The other part to this that's really interesting is like the influencers, really are just, they're just as important ⁓ as even when we're even talking about a retail channel, right? Because before a retailer really is going to pick up product in a big way, right? That product has to become semi successful and known. So that brand has to create demand for that product, for it to become kind of the viral, you the excitement piece ⁓ that a retailer is gonna go, hey, I'm gonna take, you know, whatever 300 of those. ⁓ So this is not just about, you know, making sure that these brands launch in the right way. This is about driving demand for these smaller brands, getting them well known and making sure that retailers are there to see how much excitement happens about the brands so that they can go, hey, maybe that actually went, I mean, from outdoor retailer that it went viral immediately. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: So maybe those retailers will start looking at the brands that are on the show floor in a different way if there is there's real consumer demand for it right off the bat. speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's really, really good. So I guess kind of leading into that then let's say, you know, for people who have been to OR in the past, because I know some people are like, well, like you were saying, it wasn't the same way it was 10 years ago or 15, 20 years ago, right? And, you know, again, I've only been for two years and I even saw the difference between just two years, right? And I've heard from people that love it and hate it. It doesn't matter what trade show you go to, whether, and I've... I've said this many times on this show, like I've gone to bridal shows over and over and over again for my wedding photography business. And if I'm outgoing and I reach out to people as they're rocking around the trade show floor and everything, it doesn't matter how low the attendance is or how crappy I think it is, I'm still gonna have a good amount of sales or leads from that versus the people that just sit there, right? Or they hire people to run their booth that are not the right people for that. So in some respects, when I hear some people say that a show isn't successful for them, I try to look at that person as well and go, okay, I saw you on the show floor. I saw how you were really interacting or not interacting with people. So you can't necessarily blame that on the show and the attendance or who, what buyers were coming or not coming when you are, your personality is the way that it is, right? So I guess leading into the current question of for people who have been to OR in the past and then stopped going to OR, what would you say to someone to kind of say, hey, come back, give us another chance or, ⁓ like you said, some changes, but what are some other like, hey, come back, this is a totally different OR, that's why we moved and we're kind of revamping. speaker-1: You know, I think that what folks are going to find this year is that the energy at OR is going to be markedly different from what it's been in at least the last couple of years with the move to Minneapolis, with Wild Reach creators on the floor, with a huge amount of really new, really innovative and energized brands that are exhibiting. And in addition, I think what is really different about the 2026 show is that we've put so much intentionality behind how we're setting people up to connect with one another. So what we've heard from lots and lots and lots of conversations over the last year plus is it's really two things. One, that there's an overarching desire from pretty much everybody in the industry to have a gathering that brings everybody together. That desire is there, that desire is strong. People want to be in the same room. They want to show up together. They want to those connections. The other thing that we've heard over and over and over again is that If you're in the outdoor industry, if you're established and you're in, you know it. And if you're new and you're trying to break in, you know that too. And it's hard to actually meaningfully build those connections. And it's hard for new brands, for new folks, know, who are younger buyers, for new media, for new creators to actually go and, you know, kind of find those connections and find the community that I think is what, you know, the folks who attended 10, 20 years ago and who felt the buzz and who saw all of their friends, know, what they really cherished. So we've put a tremendous amount of work and investment intentionality behind creating opportunities for folks to build those connections, right? That starts with us having our outdoor urban experiences on the morning of the 20th and the 21st in Minneapolis. We're going to be taking folks outside of the convention center and we're starting the show off with three hours of just out. door intentional activities that are programs where people can get outside together and just connect in a much more informal and very intentional way there. And then it goes into things like, for example, our gathering program where we have created an element on the show floor where we're able to host small group gatherings that are essentially, I think of them in a way as, I think Lindsay, you call them brain dates, Some other folks have led before. It's essentially an opportunity for folks to show up in a small group of like, you know, 10 to 20 people saying, okay, you know, here's a topic that I'm interested in. There's one person who is volunteering to facilitate and to host the conversation and everybody's invited and can be on any topic, you know, that folks are passionate on. And it's a self-selecting crowd allowing people to come together and to have an intimate conversation on that one particular topic to really try and facilitate those, you know, what I would call loose connections and kind of the cross benefits. from networking with folks that are not on your, you know, buyer appointment list and that are not just folks that you already know that you're going to hang out with at the industry party, right? So that intentionality of trying to, you know, really encourage people to not just show up, but to have conversations and to have conversations with new people to build the relationships that make the auto industry what it is for everybody in the room, I think that's going to be very different from past years. speaker-0: No, that's good. I like the fact that you want people to be successful, right? As opposed to just, hey, come and let's make some money. then, you know, because you, if as they're successful, you grow, it's just like any, any other business. I feel like it's hard. I love that outdoor thing you're trying, you're doing with having people out there because I feel like you have that. I'm just, that's why you're doing it is you have those, you can go outside. and you can just talk to somebody normally instead of just this whole, you feel like you're always trying to sell something or buy something from somebody. Right. I just went to a very small bushcrafting trade show ⁓ and it was great to just, all we did was we did orienteering and we were just using one of the products from one of the companies, but they put us in teams. And next thing you know, I'm getting to know somebody that I never would have talked to before. And ⁓ as much as I'm an outgoing person, I'm also very introverted. Right, so it's usually someone has to talk to me before I talk to them. Once they say hi, I'm a blather mouth. So it's great to have those things of just being able to say hi and then just, hey, I love your shoes or ⁓ my gosh, I love being outside, listen to the birds. And all of a you're just having this long conversation. Next thing you're talking to somebody who maybe is your material supplier or something like that later on. speaker-2: And that's to the point that the things that Sunny is really organizing, like the OR Gatherings, for example, we're doing, ⁓ we have a partnership with Basecamp Outdoor. They'll be doing ⁓ a lot of ⁓ leading of these. We also have a partnership with the Outdoor Diversity Alliance. All of these groups are, being very intentional about the way that we allow people to connect. And it's also very approachable. So I think a lot of trade shows, when they get so big, and this was part of OR's problem in the past, right? They got so big that you end up trying to, know, in order to hit all of your stakeholders, you end up talking at them, right? Lots of panels and lots of education you can just attend, right? But like the re-pairing workshops in this situation with our new programming, they're table-based. They're gonna be people in a workshop. They're gonna be working in small groups. You know, we also still have our normal education that we have on our big stage and attend, but a lot of the pieces like ⁓ the Ascent Summit that we're doing with Garage Gromm here and Found It Outdoors, again, people at tables working on, you know, real projects and people connecting. And I think that is a fundamental difference in the way that we used to approach education and the way that we're approaching it as we move forward here. speaker-0: That's great. So I guess, rewinding a bit to PopFly for those who don't, just realized that maybe people don't necessarily know what PopFly is. I know I just happened to pawn PopFly maybe a year ago or so, or six months ago. ⁓ And, you know, for a business, right, how can a business take advantage of PopFly and then also for influencers, right, who you have coming or maybe you're still inviting them and stuff like that, you know, how can How does that work, that partnership with them? speaker-2: So, Popfly, have to give major kudos to the team at Popfly. ⁓ Taylor and his team, ⁓ they are scrappy and there's hustle there. But what is amazing about that system, so when we started really looking at implementing a program of this size and scope, in order for you to implement a program with 150 creators, track all that progress, track even onboarding them, categories and then finding like even doing a wrap up of what that has done for your business. I mean, you'd need a team of like 10 and like I think Sunny and I, we have a small group of, know, basically five people that really work on the brand full time. So, so we really needed a partner that could like facilitate a lot of that. So from a brand perspective, you know, they, they have helped us not only organize our creators, ⁓ They're helping us facilitate the program. They're helping us even be extremely approachable by those creators and making sure that the content that and the way that we're greeting those creators on site at the event is all very seamless. And then on top of that, one of the great benefits that we have even for businesses that are coming on site at O.R., if you're not already on PopFly, don't worry about it. Come to O.R., we're gonna onboard you, I think it's six months. ⁓ of a PopFly membership for you to aggregate all of the views, all of the opportunities you have with those influencers, those will be measured and tracked for you if you're an exhibitor at a while. We're gonna onboard you, we're gonna make sure that that is very seamless, and then at the end of the show, we're gonna be able to provide you a report of all of the different people that came by your booth, what they talked about your product, and give you a full scope of what that program from a value standpoint did for you. So back to your point, Craig, about like, you know, brands that sit there and they wait for that one retailer that they want to see. And if they didn't see that one retailer, like it ruined their experience. That's not going to happen on this show floor because, you know, you'll see those retailers on site because we have a really robust hosted buyer program. reality is, that if you're pro if you're, if you get the kind of exposure that we're expecting these, these these influencers to provide for you, you're going to be very happy with your results. speaker-0: Yeah. I feel like you're going to have... speaker-2: But Sunny, if you want to talk about it from a creator standpoint, think that that, you know, because I think you're a creator yourself and and this is a it's a really impactful program. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. mean, I think it's impactful from all sides. It's impactful for the brands, it's impactful for creators, it's impactful for the show, and it's just a really, really powerful solution, as Lindsay said, a team that's scrappy and where there's real hustle and who built PopFly because they precisely understood the challenge of how to address the new creator economy at scale, right? So that's the entire core of PopFly is trying to solve exactly that challenge. And I do want to add one thing from the business perspective, I think Lindsay touched on it, but essentially by exhibiting at the show, you as an exhibitor get to trial PopFly at no extra cost and see how it works and if it works and if this is something that truly adds value to your business. Which clearly we absolutely believe, we're huge proponents of that. We're making a big investment in making this available because we think that it is so, so, so important. and that it has the possibility of shaping, in all honesty, the future of the industry from a media perspective, right? So that's on the business side. Now on the creator side, yes, being a creator myself and having done plenty of work in the creator space, I know, I think just as well as you do, Craig, creating the content and delivering things is one part, but then coordinating with brands and one, finding brands to work with, two, figuring out what those deliverables are supposed to look like, how to get them there, and then making sure that they actually you know, get used and you know, what the impact is from them and having some sort of tracking and attribution on the back end. All of that is a massive, massive headache. And the more work you do as a creator, ⁓ the harder it becomes to go and manage the portfolio. If you don't have a platform where you can go and you can scale that and do it in some sort of systematized fashion. So, you know, for me, I will say that I'm mostly beyond my individual creator days at this point. You know, there's not a lot of work that I do on that side anymore, but I am. registered with PopFland, I see all of the brand drops that are happening and all of the opportunities that are coming out every single day, including opportunities with OR and with the show. And I will say that when I was in my heyday as a creator ⁓ and I was doing a lot of that business, I would have loved to be able to leverage a solution like that because, ⁓ my God, I'm seeing some of these opportunities. like, I want to apply. And I'm like, ⁓ no, wait, I won't because my... My dance car is already full, but yeah, it's just an amazing tool and I think it makes a huge difference for businesses and creators alike. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, when I signed up for PopFly myself, like as a creator, I was like, ⁓ this is so much easier. And it kept the flow between the brand and the creator so much better than the other platforms that I had been using. thank goodness, I'm just out there wild with my brain. My brain doesn't focus, but my wife is super good at math and doing planning and everything else. So she's thinking that she does that, but. ⁓ It helps get it there. think having everybody there together is really going to make, like, I can only imagine the amount, you know, depending on how many creators you have in their reach, like, there's so many millions of eyes that are gonna be on brands instead of, go to trade shows and they're like, sorry, you can't film, you can't do this, you can't do this. And now you have the ability to have creators out there that can do that. So. Exactly. Yeah. speaker-2: really amplify your message and tell your story overall. I mean, I think I've said this to, don't know how many people I've said this to, but I do believe that this is a true evolution of the trade show for, you know, in our segment. I know there's probably a lot of other trade shows that have developed, you know, influencer programs, but at the scale and scope that we are doing it. And I'm, I'm so excited to show the industry the results of this because I that it can be extremely impactful and nobody's gonna be able to do it at the scale we're doing it unless you have someone like a PopFly or you have a team of 20 that's gonna do all the work. we're very fortunate to have found them and they've been, I mean, they've been extremely, the work that they've done on the backend to make this seamless for us has been pretty incredible. speaker-0: Yeah. Go ahead. speaker-1: was gonna say, if I may add one more thing, if you think about it from a on the floor perspective, like Craig, you were talking about how when you find something at the trade show and you think it's the coolest thing, you wanna talk about it and you wanna go and tell all these stories and do all these things, but also just think of, maybe this doesn't happen to you, but I know it's happened to me plenty, but I've seen something really cool at the trade show and I'm like, ⁓ my God, this is amazing. I wanna go and talk about this. And then I'm like, okay, how can I go and connect with a person? Ideally a marketing director or somebody else in the marketing department to actually showcase what I'm doing here and turn this into a relationship. And just the friction that happens there, right? Because how are the marketing folks from a brand supposed to know in the moment on a show floor who they actually should be giving time to and who they shouldn't be giving time to, right? That friction. with the brand knowing that they need the influencers and the influencers wanting to do the work, but them not knowing how to connect because the vetting is impossible to do in the moment. Popfly eliminates all of that. I just, yeah, there's so many reasons why we're stoked on it. This is just one tactical element that I wanted to make sure we highlight. speaker-0: No, that's good. I like that aspect of it being vetted. It's not just random people on the show floor. It's people that have been vetted. you know, because I ⁓ think I was in Vegas at a trade show ⁓ and they wouldn't give me the time of day until someone randomly said hi to me. And then they're like, ⁓ hey, I love the stuff that you did for us. It was one of those great moments where they walked by and I'd worked for them. speaker-2: You were speaker-0: Yeah. then it's like, oh, great. And then that person goes, oh, this person is a legit person, not just some random person that's maybe trying to find out my IP and stuff like that. know? Yeah. So that's great. No, I love it. speaker-1: And if you come in with Popfly, you're going to have the badge, you know, and people are going to know, okay, you're a Wild Reach creator and yes, you know, you're a Vetted and you know, yes, this is a conversation that should be happening. Yeah. speaker-0: It's funny that you said you're also working with Garage Grown Gear because I'm right after we record this I have Lloyd on from Garage Grown Gear actually. don't we say hi. Yeah, I will. what exactly for people who are looking at that part is it from my understanding at least reading online and then you guys can correct me if I'm wrong but is there also like a small business kind of Garage Grown Village that's going to be there of brands or how is that working? speaker-2: So we have a couple of different levels. ⁓ So the Garage Grown Gear and Found It Outdoors piece, we're calling it the campsite. They're aggregated on the show floor. They are smack dab in the middle of the floor. ⁓ cool. They are like our innovation zone. ⁓ we've worked with about somewhere around 35 plus brands to come into that zone. We have provided them. So the space that they get, it's kind of a three by three, which is really designed to have like a hero type product. We've provided them some really nice displays to make sure that the products are all displayed in a nice way. ⁓ But it really is designed to provide a path to success. So think about like a ⁓ new product zone at a trade show. That's really what this is gonna look like. ⁓ And then Lloyd and Katie and their teams. are gonna put together ⁓ some content for the stage we'll put in this zone. It'll be ⁓ a few influencers that are doing ⁓ live podcasts, live YouTube for interviewing all of those innovators and all those members that are in that zone. So ⁓ live content during the actual show itself with like Q and A's from the founders. So we invite you Craig, cause I know that's like, that's your jam. like that. ⁓ You need to come to the too and hang out with us. speaker-1: Thanks speaker-2: ⁓ And then we also have a program called Ascent and that's if you want your own 5 by 10 or 10 by 10 ⁓ You can upgrade into that area ⁓ We'll make sure that obviously there's like a creator tour of that area also will also have There's also an opportunity for all of these brands whether they're in the founded outdoors and garage-grown gear campsite or they're in the asset program to they can ⁓ they can actually recommend retailers for our hosted buyer program. We will host those retailers, flights and hotels ⁓ to come to the show and come see all these new products. But Craig, between what we're doing with Garage Row Gear and Found It Outdoors, our Ascent programs, we're gonna have probably over, at least over 75 to 100 brand new brands on the show floor. Wow. ⁓ That are gonna be released ⁓ and releasing new product or coming to market for the first time. Yeah. We're really excited about this because every single one of those brands, they're going to see retailers and they're going to get major reach with the wild reaches. speaker-0: Yeah. I actually looked online and I was like really impressed with the list of ⁓ brands that you guys have this year. cause you know, I think everybody looks at it, especially from a creator's perspective, you kind of look online and you look at brands and you go, okay, I wanted to talk to that person or I haven't been able to get them on the phone or whatever. And now you might have that face to face with them. And I'm like, ⁓ there's a lot of brands that I haven't had a chance to talk to. love to talk to them or I love their product or I want to hear their for me anyways on the pockets I want to hear their story how they grew from you know in their garage to now either a large brand or they're still just kind of keeping it mom and pop kind of a kind of thing so I love the fact that when I heard that that you guys are doing that kind of campsite in the ascent portion speaker-2: Yes. And then we're also highlighting all of those brands are also getting segments on our founded Friday series, is launched. It's launched on ⁓ our LinkedIn platform. ⁓ And it's all about founders and what product they brought to market, what solution they found in the outdoors, and then why they really built their product. I think the other part of this that is going to be really impactful is, retailers to make sure that they have, you know, fresh things in their stores and they have, you know, they are creating real demand for their customers coming in. They need some of this like innovative stuff, right? So outdoor retailers going to be a really great place for them to come and search for things that, I mean, let's face it, they probably haven't had any exposure to yet. And things that they really can, can outfit some of, you know, to hit their kind of new and innovative bucket to drive consumers in their stores. speaker-0: Nice, nice. ⁓ I guess kind of shifting gears a little bit then from the whole social thing and smaller businesses and everything. ⁓ Maybe going back to the brands who are thinking about coming or they are coming, you know, and how we can give them some tips and stuff like that on how to be successful, whether it's in your trade show or another one. You know, what are some biggest missed opportunities for brands that have or are going to attend, like what are some missed opportunities that you find people have? speaker-1: I think without wanting to go too far back into Wild Reach, the number one thing that I would encourage every brand who's attending OR this year to make sure they do is to take advantage of Wild Reach and go through the pop fly onboarding. Wild Reach is an automatic benefit for everybody who's exhibiting. And the only way that you're really fully going to be able to have visibility into your numbers and into the creator matches and all of that, you do have to be on the platform. Now we have a program. to make sure that that onboarding is really easy and really painless and that it's very, very uncomplicated to go through, but you do have to essentially activate your Popfly account as we invite you. So that's a huge one and that's absolutely essential for any participating brand. Make sure that you go and you click on our email, send you, go and take advantage of that Popfly opportunity. Beyond that, I think the... Number one opportunity that I see above and beyond Wild Reach is to take advantage again of the group and small group interactions and community building opportunities that we're creating that aren't just the hard business. You're going to have appointments from 10 to three, 10 to four every day, but show up to the urban experiences, outdoor urban experiences in the morning, show up. to gathering sessions, show up to the education on the 19th of August during industry day. I think like you said very accurately Craig, what folks are getting out of a show typically is what they're putting into it. Show up for all of the things that we're putting into place to facilitate connection and facilitate community and facilitate those exchanges. speaker-0: No, exactly. speaker-1: that end up leading to massive benefit that you may not be able to quantify in the moment, but where you end up having a conversation that's just blowing your mind and next you know that's your core business partner five years down the road. So those are the two things that I would say and I would assume Lindsay has more to add to that. speaker-2: Well, just a few things ⁓ to actually two things. One is ⁓ through. ⁓ so every single exhibitor that comes on site will get access to our our app and inside of our app. We do two things. One is our match, which is matchmaking between you and the retailers that are going to be on site. So download the app. Well, that typically goes live about 30 days before the show. You can see the retailers that are registered. You can see the brands that are registered and you can actually make You can make inquiries as to retailers that you want to meet with and vice versa. Retailers can reach out to brands that they want to meet with. So that's match. The other thing that every single exhibitor will have access to, which is super beneficial, any retailers that are coming by your booth, we offer through our app lead scanning. So you don't have to take a business card. You don't have to write anything down. literally through the app, you as an exhibitor on the show floor plan. Yeah. literally click the button and through that click, you ⁓ actually get that lead right then and there. All those leads will be downloadable after the show, so you can follow up your leads with your leads if you want to follow up with them immediately you can. You can wait a day, you can wait until after the show finishes, but they are immediately available to you. I do, I mean, that is technology that we've invested in that we're providing to every single person, because we want to make sure that you have a good show. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. It's funny you say like follow up with your leads. So when I first started my company years and years ago, and I got my first inquiries, I didn't want to seem desperate. So I didn't call them right away. I was like, Oh, I don't want to be like desperate. So I literally waited three to four weeks to call them up. And then they're like, well, we already booked somebody for our wedding because you didn't call us back. And I'm like, speaker-2: You gotta follow up with your lead. speaker-1: Yeah speaker-0: I look back 20 years ago, man, I'm so dumb, but I thought that was a good business decision, right? And when I go to big trade shows, I just assume everybody has run a business for a long time. But when I talk to people, I realize a lot of these people, they don't know how to run a business still. And I think what you said, it's like, you can follow up today or in a few days, but it's so key to follow up right away because we're such an instant society of why haven't they called me back? Why haven't they emailed me? Because ⁓ I had a gentleman on and he, it started his business as a different name and tried to make it look like a big company, right? But it was just him in the garage. so people were like, why is it taking so long to get my products and everything? And then he realized I had to market himself more ⁓ as a small creator, creating his products, letting people know, informing them and everything else. And then letting, and. and emailing right away as much as he could. But he was like, I can't follow up because I'm also sewing at the same time that I'm trying to email. And so he had to switch his marketing side of it and go, okay, I have to let people understand that right now I'm just one person, know, sewing in my garage and I have to, can get back in 24 or 48 hours. I can't get back in five seconds because I'm not, I don't have AI taking over my, customer service. So. speaker-2: Well, and Craig, OR wants to make it super easy to follow up on your leads. So then through this app, literally can, you can, you can even automate if you want to, follow up those leads. ⁓ know, there's, you don't have to manually do this, right? again, it's, it's a big resource and, you'd be surprised at how many people don't use it, but that I would say if there was recommendations, that is definitely one. speaker-1: And I would say related to that, you know, since we are going to have so many new and emerging brands on the show floor this year, we're working with all of those brands and or founded outdoors and GarageGroundGear I know is working with all of those brands and exhibitors to make sure that everybody's clear on, you know, there's going to be retailers that will have some open to buy like for the holiday season, right? For what product is actually available, ready to ship, right? And then kind of water conversations for future seasons and future years. And, you know, to make sure that everybody who's on the show floor is market ready and show ready in such a way that the conversations are really clear and there is no yield loss in terms of, wait, you're telling me that if you've got what you got right now and I can't actually place an order for it, you know. So that's important as well. speaker-0: Yeah. That's great point to make is that a lot of small business owners, they may not necessarily understand the way that the industry works in terms of having to get it made and shipping and all this stuff. I've talked to a few people that were like, because we've always asked the question for lot of people, what's an oh crap moment in your business? And a lot of times that oh crap moment is I didn't realize I had to order it 10 months ahead of time. in order to get it. So I promised in order to somebody that I didn't realize that it's going to take X amount of time to get there. And then I just totally screwed over that relationship and everything. I think it's, I think for most people as I've been to these industry things and what I did in the past is that ⁓ taking advantage, like you said earlier, I think Sunny, think you said or Lindsay that taking advantage of every aspect of it. It's like when I go to trade shows, I don't sleep because I go, I'm here to make money, I'm here to find clients, I'm here to build relationships. And I don't wanna build fake relationships, but I also want to go and until the show is done, I've closed, I mean, I'm there on the show floor the whole time. As soon as there's an industry thing, if I'm allowed to attend it, based on what pass I have, I'm going to that. I'm finding out if someone wants to go out to dinner, so I can just take them out to dinner to get to know them and stuff. But I think a lot of people, especially maybe veterans or people who have been in the industry for a long time, they're just really tired and they're like, okay, I just need to go back to my hotel and rest because I have a long day. speaker-2: Yes. Craig, I would say, you know, when we talk to, I mean, old exhibitors, we talk to industry folks, we talk to associations. mean, like a lot of them will tell you like the industry, they want to gather, right? They want to come together. They want to make sure that there's a community focused here. ⁓ And OR is, it used to be the place that that all happened. And again, you know, speaker-1: Can I ask you... speaker-2: We're not just trying to build a gathering. We're not just trying to build a community here. All those things are gonna be a part of what OR is in Minneapolis. But going back to the intentionality of where we've even put our investments, Brands, as much as they love community and gathering, they won't just pay for that, right? They need retailers. They need us to invest in things like hosted buyer to make sure retailers are on site. They need us to invest in things like media to make sure that their products are launched correctly. So we want to do the right investments for the brands. But what will come out of all of the things that we are doing is building that community and that gathering. But the details of how we're doing it are extremely important to rebuilding the fabric of what OR will do from a value proposition standpoint to exhibitors and for its stakeholders and for its attendees. speaker-0: Yeah. Sonia, you were going to ask something? speaker-1: was actually going to ask you a question, Craig. ⁓ As you're describing how you're approaching trade shows now and you were describing earlier how you're an introvert, right? And it typically takes somebody to talk to you to kind of for you to open the floodgates. ⁓ I can relate so very much to that because introvert and can talk your ear off when and if I feel like there's permission, there's an open door. And I've both been at events where I'm kind of walking the halls and I'm like trying to find the connection and I'm not feeling it and I'm... I end up doing the bare minimum and then I go hide in my hotel room, right? And that's exactly what we don't want and OR to be and what it's not going to be. But then I've also been at events where I'm like, ⁓ wow, I only got six hours and there's so much talking to be done here and so many relationships to be built and so much, just so many people to meet and you know, the time just flies by in a heartbeat, right? Which is what we're building with OR this summer. So the question that I have for you is, do you know what flip the switch for you or kind of, know, what, what your gateway is to go from the introvert who's, know, not kind of feeling it to doing what you're doing, which is to just fully be there, fully present, fully invested and, know, taking your band of every minute. speaker-0: Yeah, I think my wife said it best that she, you know, I think it's a sales term that everybody's trying to find that me too moment, right? That, hey, you relate to them or something and then it's just a conversation. Anytime I've ever gone to a booth, I've never walked up to somebody to ⁓ sell them my services or anything because one, I'm not allowed to sometimes, right? And so I just want to go and find out products because I'm like, ⁓ this is a cool product. ⁓ I'm always thinking of ideas, spitting it to other people, but I'll walk up and just have a conversation with somebody. And then we're like, ⁓ we have this great moment together. was like, ⁓ you're from so-and-so. ⁓ I've been to that place. And then it starts a regular normal conversation. Once that normal conversation is there, it's just a free flow as opposed to a forced thing. And that's how I function. Is it just a normal like, you know, like hey, you're in Utah, right? And I'm like, ⁓ I love that park. And then we start talking about Zion and anything. And then all of a sudden we have something that we relate to. And then all of sudden somehow we end up leading into what you do. And I think I was at a trade show. This is hilarious because I was literally at a trade show talking to somebody. This was at Switchback last year. I left OR and I got straight to, or no, I was at Switchback and I went straight to OR. and I'm talking to ⁓ somebody and we're having a normal conversation and this guy walks up to us and says, hey, I'm from so-and-so advertising agency, like straight up ⁓ interrupts our conversation. speaker-2: Declaring his purpose. speaker-0: And he's like, hey, if you ever need any marketing stuff or whatever, and then he hands his card and then walks away. And then me and my friend, we look at each other and I'm like, that's what I hope I never ever do, is do that. That's why we're having a conversation. We're just talking about whatever. And he goes, that's why I want to work with you, Craig, is because you actually are a normal person and you care about me as a person. You don't just want my business. And I think... We've all met enough people at trade shows and stuff where it's just some- Transactional. It's that sleazy stereotypical salesman that you're like, okay, this guy's just trying to sell me something. He doesn't care about whether it's the right thing for me. I worked at Apple ⁓ for two and a half, three years. I did the sales thing for a little bit and they always taught us to find what the person needs, not what they want. And then I started teaching photo video classes over there just because of my personality, but when I was doing sales, was like, oh, this is great. I'm actually finding what they need. So they would come and want to buy a $6,000 MacBook Pro and all they're doing is writing stories and stuff like that. I'm like, hey, you get this with a little bit above it. So if future proofs yourself or whatever, in case you want to do these things, but you don't need this $6,000 thing. And I think. Long answer to a short question is, finding that me too moment. And then once you find that, you relate real well together and then you realize it's just a normal, you're a person and not just the sales. speaker-2: humanity. know, Craig, that's basically how we've, that's part of our reboot strategy is it's been talking to brands about what they need. And that's funny, it goes back to what I just mentioned about this gathering thing. know, brands will tell you what they want is this community gathering. And that's like, ⁓ we want want to, in the way that it needs to be and how it's community and all the gathering, all the networking that happens. But when you get down to what brands need, It's a different, there are different needs in the value proposition that actually fuel, like actually fuel the funnel and the future of the outdoors, right? So gathering is great. Gathering and community is wonderful. And we're gonna have all that as a overall view of what O'R will have at the show. But the reality is, is that we are fundamentally finding value in the need and finding the solution for what they're asking for. speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. That's great. Yeah, I've heard that many times like, hey, we need community, we need community. like, I also need money. I love community and I want to meet and hang out with people and build relationships. But I want those to be quality relationships. And I think you're helping build those quality relationships. And ⁓ literally, I think we were talking about having you guys being on before I had heard about PopFly. And then once I heard about that, the whole Popfly thing, was like, ⁓ great. So I was filling it out going, I'm going to talk to them anyways on things. We'll see who's, because some of them on Popfly, don't know who I'm talking to or who the connection is and everything ⁓ until we have the messages back and forth. But I was like, ⁓ this is actually great. ⁓ So yeah, it's like having a free marketing department, I think, for. There you go. Not a free. speaker-1: It's okay. Yeah. speaker-2: Definitely not free, but... speaker-0: Yes, yes, but it's an affordable, it's like affordable marketing department, so speak. Well, awesome. I don't have any other questions for you guys other than maybe kind of one last question about just the criticism from the industry beforehand that it's not deep, but just like, what do you think? You think the criticism was fair about the way OR was going and that's why you guys are trying to switch it up a little bit? Or do you think it was, you know? I guess I don't know where I'm, that's my question I guess. speaker-1: You know, what I would say, again, having been to the show for the last decade, roughly, OR changed, OR changed pretty materially, particularly in the period from 2018 through 2024-ish. And I think the way the show had changed, it wasn't serving the industry the way that it did previously. Back in the aughts, the teens, OR was a really central hub for the community, for the industry. was a lot of business that was getting done and was working really well for the majority of people in the room, right? And then we started seeing the emergence of super booths and then we started seeing geographic moves and we started kind of the brand attendance shift and we just, we saw clearly and we got the message that the format that the show had up until this past year wasn't going in the direction that the industry really needed. from my perspective anyway. so yes, I think some of the criticism is fair. And I think we're really excited for what's coming up in Minneapolis and how we're building 2026 because Lindsay alluded to this earlier, we're not trying to go and rebuild the OR of 2015 or 2016, even though was a ton of fun attending it, I will vouch for that. That's not what we're trying to recreate. We're trying to build a new show that is Genuinely impactful and genuinely useful for everybody in the room and we want the folks in the room to be reflective of what the outdoor industry looks like which is different today and different five years and ten years from now than it was ten years in the past, right? So, ⁓ yes, you know, there's a reason for why we're rebooting the show in Minneapolis. There's a reason for why we're making all of these changes, for why we're making all of these investments and I'm really excited to be able to be a part of it. speaker-0: That's cool. Kind of a question that just popped into my head ⁓ that you said like the super booths and stuff like that is I think the criticism I had from somebody is like, ⁓ well, these larger brands are buying these other brands. And this is a little bit of a completely different question. Maybe you have a little insight into it. But some people love the cottage brands, right? They love those smaller brands. And they'll literally step away from purchasing larger brands just because all those brands have sold out or whatever. But I think for smaller brands, seeing bigger brands at the show as well is a great partnership to see where they can grow. But then also some people are like, hey, I have a great product. I'm OK with a brand seeing my product and saying, hey, I want to buy your company out. And that's another success as well, not just even getting into retailers and everything. More of a statement, I guess, than a question. speaker-1: Yeah. And, know, I fully agree with that. I mean, from my perspective, how do you succeed as a cottage brand? Chances are that to succeed as a cottage brand 10 or 20 years down the road, you don't want to be a cottage brand. Right. Yeah. Which is not to say that being a cottage brand isn't awesome. It is. But, you know, being an outdoor entrepreneur myself, like I know how much just heart wrenching work and effort it is to run a small business that you're bootstrapping, that you're trying to get really creative with, that you're trying to guerrilla market with, that you're trying to go and do the right thing with, And ideally from my perspective, at some point that cottage brand can grow into something that for the founders is a sustainable living. Right. And that's not just crazy sitting in your garage and, know, doing the emails and the sewing at the same time and trying to figure out how to make everything right for everybody because you love the product. And at the same time, you're burning out like crazy because there's just so much work to be done. Right. So there has to be a trajectory for a cottage brand. And that trajectory to me is either growth, which then turns a cottage brand into a larger brand, which changes the public perception. But, know, that's part of the trajectory or it is an exit where that cottage brand gets bought. And in order to be bought, it has to be somebody that has the pockets necessary to go and be able to absorb a transaction like that and make it worthwhile. So that's also a larger brand. So I understand the kind of perception and image implications of going through those growth phases. And I also think that they're completely natural evolution of having success in the industry. if you look, for example, at somebody like Kodopaxi, right, who we had some great discussions with Kodopaxi folks in industry day last year at Outdoor Retailer. I think they've demonstrated how to kind of try and navigate that journey and how to sometimes do it exceedingly well and how to sometimes have to confront challenges with it, right? So, yeah, a Kodash brand by default, I think, has a trajectory to go through and that's a reality that we all are aware of. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: And Chris, I mean, if you look at OR's trajectory as it relates to this, some of the biggest brands in the industry were launched at OR, right? Yeah. What's great, though, in today's OR and kind of the reboot, ⁓ the one thing that we really thought about a lot, and we talked to the Leadership Village about it, we talked to our advisory family, we talked to the industry about is ⁓ You know, back in the day, I don't know, 2015 through 2019, all of those years, like it was hard if you were a small brand and you wanted a 10 by 10 on the show for first, it was very hard to get that because we were sold out. We didn't space. We weren't allocating space to, you know, up and coming brands. You know, there were only very, it was a very limited program. I think the other part of that is, you know, these bigger brands, they took these massive boosts and it really, And not that there was an intentional piece about it, right? They're just trying to do what they're gonna do best to market their brand. But what it ended up doing was really relegating those 10 by 10s, smaller launch programs to the back of the hall, the side of the hall, the tent, all the way underneath the staircase or wherever else they ended up being. The reality is today, what we're looking to do is put those folks out front, right? Like, and we're also restricting booth size. So if you're a one product, you one brand, you know, your biggest booth can be a 20 by 20. So we don't want to start that race to the biggest booth contest. Cause I, it did not, it did not end well in the last version of that. ⁓ But the reality is, that, you know, it's purposeful again, back to all of the things that Sunny I've talked about. very purposeful in the way that we're trying to help those cottage brands, you know, be out front, have a placement and be able to put their products out there. speaker-0: Yeah, that's good. I like the fact that you're, it's almost like you're trying to, like life isn't fair, but you're trying to be as fair as you can with, for everybody at a trade show. Yes. As opposed to them being overshadowed. So, yeah, no, that's really good. ⁓ Okay. Well, I mean, thank you so much for the amazing insight for, I'm sure people are going to listen and be like, ⁓ my gosh, okay, I've got to go. Or are there booth spaces available still? There are. kind of good stuff. Yes. So, ⁓ I'm gonna go into some lightning round stuff, but I think before we go into that kind of lightning and questions, if people are looking to be a part of OR, whether it's a creator or a brand wanting a booth and stuff like that, what's the best way to reach out to you all? speaker-2: So through the website, OutdoorRetailer.com, there's definitely a path for you to send us a note about inquiring about a booth space. And then also there's an entire page on all the benefits and the different levels of how you can get involved. The other path, which is the Creator Platform, you can either go direct to PlatFlight or you can also go to OutdoorRetailer.com. We have an entire platform just for the Wild Reach Initiative. ⁓ And you can go right through the popfly platform and sign up We are gonna make a big release. Hopefully next week possibly the following week of the first ten Accepted creators. Okay, and show you the kind of impact that just those ten We still got another 140 to go Just those ten are gonna make on the show floor. So we're really excited about about making that launch happen speaker-0: Yeah, no, that's I love the fact that you're coming out, so you're letting people know that they're not so they're not just getting there because I guess that was a question I was going to ask or was thinking I was like, well, I wonder who's going to be there or if it's really going to be but you're going to it's like you're giving them a little teases coming up going, okay, you need to be there. speaker-2: Again, next week, hopefully the first 10 and then every two weeks after that, we're going to drop another 10. So everybody's going to know. speaker-0: Awesome. Well, great. Okay, well, I'm gonna go into the lightning round. It's basically just some questions. Let's get to know you guys a little bit more before we end. So since there's two of y'all, feel free to answer first dibs on whoever gets the question. I guess we could do points because I never have two people on here. I think it'd be cool to see, and I'll be the judge. I'll give the points. It'll be like, whose line is it anyways? Right? It's an obscene amount of points that really don't make any sense. So that A, I just. speaker-2: I Sunny's gonna win because she's the super adventurer in the group. speaker-1: Only if it's about national parks. The rest of it, Lindsay, that's in your quarter. speaker-0: All right, all right. So without further ado, let's go into the rapid fire round. first question, of course, ⁓ as you just mentioned, Sonny, is what's your favorite national park? speaker-1: Grand Canyon. speaker-0: ⁓ okay, Lindsay. speaker-2: ⁓ Yellowstone. ⁓ speaker-0: Okay, so I'm going to give that one to Sunny just because that's my favorite national park is the Grand Canyon and my wife's and so ⁓ that's it's a bias point so speaker-1: keeping track. speaker-0: But I've never been to Yellowstone, so maybe I'll change my mind if I go to Yellowstone. All right. Really? Okay, well, we'll see. All right, next question is, worst trail snack you've ever tried. or we can go first and say speaker-2: Can we say like the old school cliff bar that actually has been in your pack for four years and it's stale and you realize it was there until you opened it? speaker-0: Yes. That's good. Old food. speaker-1: ⁓ I don't know if this is worst or maybe it's best, ⁓ picking up somebody else's ⁓ &Ms from the trail in the snow. So it was cold. There was no, it was clean, but yes, ⁓ that was pretty good. speaker-0: Lindsay gets that one then because that's more of like a really good trail snack that you're just hoping is not actually like rabbit poop or something like that instead of speaker-1: you week. It was yellow, so it should have been an ⁓ I think it was an ⁓ speaker-0: All right, so what's your favorite trail snack? What's your go-to trail snack? ⁓ speaker-2: I like the, I don't know, maybe this is brand shout out, but I like the Epic, the grass-fed ⁓ jerky sticks. speaker-1: Okay. Yeah. ⁓ I know. So I do a lot of stuff unsupported these days, which means that most of my trial snacks are nuts just because of caloric density, but that doesn't mean that they're my favorite. ⁓ You know those really wretched, like forever lasting gas station pastries? I think they're called Bon Appetit or something like that. Bear Claws. They last forever and they're like 600 calories a pop. So I'm going to say Bear Claws. speaker-0: Nice. There you go. Yeah. ⁓ my gosh. Okay. I love, I love pastries more than anything else. So go that route. speaker-2: I can go the healthy route. Wow. speaker-0: Well, I always say on this show that like I went vegan for about a year and a half. And so I was like straight up like awesome, like healthy snacks. And then the last six to nine months now I'm just eat whatever. And so the number one that everybody says uses those nerds gummy clusters because they're just so much sugar. speaker-1: So. No, they have no calories. they have no calories for the weight. So I, you know, I do a lot of long trail, unsupported carrying everything from the start. And when you look at the cards, just, don't get the same caloric density. But just one of the issues with the bear claws as well, they actually don't have enough calories for the weight. But anyway, I digress. speaker-0: Interesting. ⁓ I got to get some info then from you on like the best because ⁓ I'm doing like an eight day thing with my friend and we're going to have to carry everything for those eight days. And I'm like, okay, I've got to figure out better foods because I don't want to carry so much weight as last time. ⁓ Okay. ⁓ This one's a good one. Tent, hammock or cowboy camping? speaker-1: Cowboy. speaker-2: Hammock. Hammock, yeah. speaker-0: Really? ⁓ I'm too scared of cowboy camp and I've never hammock camped yet. So ⁓ that's cool. I'm so scared of something, especially you being in Utah, I feel, I'd be scared of like a scorpion on my chest or something like that in the middle of the night. speaker-1: I've probably spent about, I don't know, 200 to 300 nights out at this point and I've never had an issue. I will say I do now sometimes carry a little Helinox cot in my backpack, which is pathetic in some ways, but it's kind of awesome. It's nice to be a little bit off the ground, but no, I still prefer sleeping on the ground and I only take a tent if the weather is bad. speaker-0: That's cool. ⁓ Okay, early bird or night owl? speaker-2: Early bird, I'm early bird. Hands down. speaker-1: Yeah. Both. speaker-0: All right, ⁓ one app you can't live without for work. And you can't say the OR app, because that's obviously like a gimme, so. speaker-1: I have one. speaker-0: Go for it. ⁓ yeah, yeah speaker-2: ⁓ yes, that or Jasper. speaker-1: Just. speaker-2: It's amazing, but for writing and writing proposals and all of the stuff that we do from a content point, Jasper's incredible. speaker-0: Yeah. It's amazing when you see, can tell when someone's used a certain one, cause I'll be like, ⁓ that was on chat. That one's on Claude, that one's. Yeah. And I'm like, ⁓ didn't, didn't realize the difference. I'll, I'll drive in my Tesla and I'll just put it on Grok and I'll just like have a conversation for like 30 minutes and I'll put it on therapy and just jokingly say the dumbest things like, ⁓ I hate my life. And then like, ⁓ well don't do anything drastic. And, and so that's funny. ⁓ This is a great one. And this might kind of go with your favorite, but mountain, forest, desert, or coast. speaker-2: Can I pick three? speaker-1: I was gonna say, do we have to choose? with Lindsay. speaker-0: You gotta pick one, because we gotta know if you had to go for one. speaker-2: I'm a mountain person person speaker-0: snow in there. Mountain. speaker-1: in the desert but I work in the mountains but I love the coast I just I don't know how about city if I just have to choose one no I'm kidding yeah I choose none no I can't decide it's like asking which of your you know children your feelings let go speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-2: None. speaker-0: Yeah, that's true. All right, two more left. What's your most used piece of gear in your life right now? speaker-2: My running shoes. I have to be honest, my running shoes. speaker-1: Does the brain count as ⁓ speaker-0: ⁓ No, that's good. That's good. I like people who think outside the box instead of the typical answer. I always try to find a loophole when people ask me a question. I'm like, ⁓ let me give them an answer they haven't thought of. speaker-1: Yeah, so go my brain. speaker-0: All right, and then the last question is what's one outdoor skill you still kind of suck at? speaker-1: Okay, now this time I would like to have a list. It's hard to just pick one again. Go Let me maybe start with biking, fishing and hunting. are three things. speaker-0: Okay. Okay. Like, can you ride a bike though? Or are you just talking about like speaker-1: Yes, but it's not pretty. speaker-0: Yeah. Fishing is the worst. don't know about anybody. I don't know how anybody can catch a fish. I grew up in Canada, ice fishing and stuff like that, but I can't catch a fish at all when I go in rivers and stuff like that. speaker-2: Yeah. I think fishing. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. For me. All right. So I've, I've, I'm looking at the total score. There's nothing actually on the paper in front of me, but I'm going to pretend. speaker-2: The winner is... speaker-1: favorites right now you hear that speaker-0: Winner is... speaker-2: The winner is... speaker-0: by a million points. it all came down to Grand Canyon. was it. speaker-2: Definitely. But Craig, she is a real adventurer. don't know. You probably don't know this about her, but she just finished ⁓ the Iditarod trail. She literally did it across Alaska, what, a half ago? speaker-0: She did that, I her out. speaker-1: And not with dogs. I like doing the human powered version, but, it was only the short version this year. yeah, not the whole. speaker-2: But tell them how long the short version was, speaker-1: It's 350 miles officially, See? speaker-0: Without dogs. ⁓ speaker-2: the dog. speaker-1: on foot. speaker-0: ⁓ my gosh. That is insane. speaker-2: She's a powerhouse. speaker-1: which is why now my immune system is entirely out of order and I'm getting all sorts of illnesses. So yes. speaker-0: We have It's wild how when you push your body so much, your body just retaliates back when you're all done, right? you're like, so susceptible to getting sick and everything. I don't know how you do it, how you find time to do it. And it's funny you said I did it because literally before we flew out to Italy for our vacation, ⁓ I'm behind a guy and I'm like, that license plate looks like it said idiot on it. And I looked and I was like, ⁓ it says Iditarod. ⁓ cool. And it's in Atlanta. So I was like, it's a Georgia plate, but it said Iditarod. And I wanted to drive after him and ask him like, have you done the Iditarod or is that just a hope and a dream, you know? That's crazy. Have you done it? there like, I'm going to Google it afterwards and be like, ⁓ Sonny's like done everything unsupported and all these FKTs and stuff, probably. Right. From what you're talking about, I'm like, speaker-1: So ⁓ speaker-0: I mean speaker-2: We'll deal. speaker-1: I've done a couple things. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, so modest. ⁓ speaker-1: That's what I'm here to talk about. speaker-0: What? ⁓ speaker-2: We are Resident Adventurer on staff. speaker-0: Yeah, you always need somebody that's like, where are they are trying to get a hold of them and like, I can't I'm on the Editarod. Now so. speaker-2: Sorry. speaker-1: ⁓ Yeah, think I had a link to my Garmin GPS messenger in my out of office reply for a little while. So I figured that was about as professional as I could be during that period. Yeah. speaker-2: kind of speaker-0: That's great. I should put that in my signature. My satellite Navi Vestment. Like, ⁓ he's intense. 100 % I'll never actually be gone, but I'll just put it in there so people think that I'm out there all the time. well, awesome. Well, I mean, thank you guys so much for being on. ⁓ Lindsay, Sunny, you guys are awesome. Thanks for taking the time. Sunny, I you feel better. And everybody who's listening to be on the trailhead, thank you so much. We can't wait. ⁓ speaker-1: Good strategy. speaker-0: to see you guys if you're listening and you're going to be at OR. We'll see you at OR, we'll say hi to you at OR. I'm sure you can go and give Lindsay or Sunny a high five, unless Sunny's in the middle of that, I did a rod in the middle of the summer or something, doing something across Australia or something maybe. Thank you. See you soon. speaker-2: Thank you so much.