Latest / The Epstein Chronicles / Mega Edition: Bill Barr And The Epstein Related Deposition Given To Congress (Part 5-8) (8/9/26)

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Mega Edition: Bill Barr And The Epstein Related Deposition Given To Congress (Part 5-8) (8/9/26) · The Epstein Chronicles

0:00
Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
0:02
Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking up where we
0:06
Speaker 1: left off with the Bill Barr deposition given before Congress.
0:12
Speaker 1: Question do you recall what kind of indications were brought
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Speaker 1: to you that this was just a mistake to not
0:18
Speaker 1: assign him a roommate? Answer by Bar. I can't remember
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Speaker 1: the details of it though, who struck John? But there
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Speaker 1: were a lot of people involved who you know I
0:27
Speaker 1: told him this, No, he didn't tell me this. You know,
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Speaker 1: whether this watch officer knew something or whether they didn't
0:34
Speaker 1: know something, And it was sort of it was intricate,
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Speaker 1: that's all I can remember. Question. Yeah, answer, But at
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Speaker 1: the end of the day it appeared to be screw
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Speaker 1: ups question and I think that's as you said. That
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Speaker 1: was the IG's conclusion too, that it was a lot
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Speaker 1: of word of mouth of this guy is getting transferred
0:51
Speaker 1: and confusion regarding if it was just going to trial
0:55
Speaker 1: or permanent transfer. Answer right, question, that kind of stuff. Answer.
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Speaker 1: There were things like that, and then there's you know,
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Speaker 1: different correctional officers, shifts and things and weather, things that
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Speaker 1: are important are communicated and all that kind of thing.
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Speaker 1: Question in the course of the investigation, did you ever
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Speaker 1: go to the MCC answer by bar no question. Did
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Speaker 1: you ever speak to any of the inmates that were
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Speaker 1: around mister Epstein at the time? Answer no. Question. Did
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Speaker 1: you speak to any of his roommates? Answer no, but
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Speaker 1: I believe they were interviewed and he was told the results. Question.
1:33
Speaker 1: I have nine minutes left, so I'm going to do
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Speaker 1: the unmonitored phone call and then we'll go off the
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Speaker 1: record for this round. You had mentioned earlier and said
1:41
Speaker 1: that the IG in its review that mister Epstein made
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Speaker 1: an unmonitored phone call the evening prior to being brought
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Speaker 1: back to his cell before he was before his death
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Speaker 1: on the tenth. Do you recall being made aware of
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Speaker 1: that after the fact? Answer? After his suicide question Uh
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Speaker 1: huh bar yes, question and were briefed regarding what happened
2:01
Speaker 1: with the call, bar along the way. My recollection is
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Speaker 1: the bureau spent time trying to figure out who was
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Speaker 1: the recipient and trying to track that person down. Question
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Speaker 1: and is it answer? And you know, eventually the only
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Speaker 1: thing I remember it was someone in Belarushia. I think
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Speaker 1: that's my best recollection question, But with a New York
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Speaker 1: city area code. Answer, I don't remember the details. Question Okay,
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Speaker 1: where are or two the best of your knowledge, what
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Speaker 1: are the policies for inmates making phone calls to non attorneys? Answer?
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Speaker 1: You know, I did ask the FBI what the call
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Speaker 1: was about, what did people, what did she say? And
2:40
Speaker 1: all that kind of thing. So my understanding was that
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Speaker 1: the calls like that had to be monitored, and you
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Speaker 1: couldn't make an unmonitored call unless there was a reason,
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Speaker 1: like my lawyer is going to I'm talking to my lawyer,
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Speaker 1: et cetera. Question and in addition to being monitored by
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Speaker 1: a corrections officer, these calls are usually recorded. Answer yes,
3:00
Speaker 1: question is that correct? Answer? Yes? Question was this call recorded?
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Speaker 1: Answer no, not that I'm aware of. Question. The IG
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Speaker 1: did review, and I believe the Southern District of New
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Speaker 1: York eventually did as well. Where individual won the recipient
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Speaker 1: of the call or her attorney gave a proffer to
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Speaker 1: the Southern District of New York. Are you aware of that? Answer?
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Speaker 1: I can't remember. I remember asking, I think it was
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Speaker 1: boditch what we had discovered about the call? Question. The
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Speaker 1: profet described the call of mister Epstein, saying like there
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Speaker 1: is going to be tough times. I love you, I'm sorry,
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Speaker 1: that kind of those kinds of language. Do you recall
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Speaker 1: hearing that kind of read out of the call? Answer?
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Speaker 1: I don't recall specifics, but I thought the call was
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Speaker 1: consistent with saying goodbye to someone, but not telling them
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Speaker 1: you're about to commit suicide. Question did they ever discover
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Speaker 1: the identity of the recipient? Answer? I'm not sure, and
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Speaker 1: I couldn't say. By the way, at that point we
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Speaker 1: had already made up his mind as to exactly when
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Speaker 1: he was going to do it. But to me, it
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Speaker 1: was consistent with it. I'm sorry. What was your question? Question?
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Speaker 1: Did they ever discover the identity of the recipient of
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Speaker 1: the phone call? Answer? I believe they did. That's my
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Speaker 1: best recollection. Question. Do you recall who it was? Answer?
4:18
Speaker 1: No question. I'll ask just about one person. Do you
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Speaker 1: recall if it was Glenn Maxwell? Answer it was not.
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Speaker 1: It was not her. Question it was not. Answer no, redacted.
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Speaker 1: That's a good spot. We can go off the record.
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Speaker 1: Then they go to recess. Now they're back on the record. Oh, callahan,
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Speaker 1: we're on the record. We're on the record. O'Callahan, which
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Speaker 1: is Barr's lawyer, so just before we start with your questions,
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Speaker 1: Attorney General, Barr just wanted to clarify two points from
4:48
Speaker 1: the prior testimony. It makes sense to do it now
4:52
Speaker 1: and obviously won't count against your time, if that's okay, redacted? Yeah, absolutely,
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Speaker 1: oh Callahan. Okay, Bar. So, despite your best efforts to
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Speaker 1: orient me to this floorplan, oh Callahan, he's referring to
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Speaker 1: the schematic Exhibit three. Bar, I was completely turned around
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Speaker 1: on it and for some reason was discussing it as
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Speaker 1: if the camera was to the lower left instead of
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Speaker 1: where it is was, which was to the upper right.
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Speaker 1: And as I said, the main entrance would be the
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Speaker 1: lower right of the camera scene. And so the door
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Speaker 1: that Council showed me at the far end of this
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Speaker 1: of the common area is a principal entrance, the primary
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Speaker 1: entrance to the shoe, oh callahan. So just the witness
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Speaker 1: is indicating the black rectangular box next to the red
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Speaker 1: portion of mister epstein Sell on the schematic. Barr. The
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Speaker 1: other thing is that I don't have specific recollection of
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Speaker 1: the exact time I found out about being taken off
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Speaker 1: a suicide watch, but to the best of my recollection,
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Speaker 1: it was after his suicide. O'Callahan. Those are the two points. Redacted.
5:58
Speaker 1: Thank you. Examination begins again by redacted. Question mister Barr,
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Speaker 1: Good morning. I'm going to proceed chronologically, and then doing so,
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Speaker 1: I'm going to cover some of the topics that my
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Speaker 1: majority colleagues did in a previous round. Not to make
6:12
Speaker 1: you repeat yourself, but just to follow up on some
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Speaker 1: issues and ensure we have a clear record. And I'll
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Speaker 1: start with the Florida investigation, that is the investigation into
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Speaker 1: mister Epstein by the US Attorney's Office for the Southern
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Speaker 1: District of Florida. When did you become aware of that investigation? Answer?
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Speaker 1: With everyone else according to the papers while it was
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Speaker 1: going on. Question at the time it was the questions
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Speaker 1: interrupted by Barr. Answer when there was when there was
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Speaker 1: a big outburst about a special deal and all that
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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. Question so roughly in the two thousand
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Speaker 1: and seven time frame. Answer whenever it became public that
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Speaker 1: there was a plea agreement. Question and do your recall
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Speaker 1: how you became aware of it? Bar the newspaper question newspapers,
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Speaker 1: Just a question about the resolution of that investigation, as
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Speaker 1: I'm sure you're aware, mister Epstein entered into a non
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Speaker 1: prosecution agreement with the US Attorney's Office in September of
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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. Among other things, the agreement bound
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Speaker 1: the United States not to quote institute any criminal charges
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Speaker 1: against any potential co conspirators of Epstein unquote. Are you
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Speaker 1: familiar with that agreement, mister O'Callahan, So, hold on, excuse me.
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Speaker 1: Attorney General Barr was under subpoena, and the scope of
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Speaker 1: the cover letter was about the investigation by the Department
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Speaker 1: of Justice into Epstein and Maxwell while he was Attorney General.
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Speaker 1: You're asking about information that he was not Attorney general,
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Speaker 1: and so I think it's beyond the scope of what
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Speaker 1: the subpoena called for redacted. I don't think I would
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Speaker 1: agree with that scope, and I think that the proceeding
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Speaker 1: here today are focused on the DJ's investigation concerning mister
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Speaker 1: Epstein generally, and the question I'm asking now goes to
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Speaker 1: mister Barr's perspective based on his experience as Attorney General
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Speaker 1: O'Callahan which time redacted, which time well, experience as Attorney
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Speaker 1: general both times. Question, just based on your professional perspective, sir,
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Speaker 1: have you seen a provision in a plea agreement that
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Speaker 1: found the United States not to pursue co conspirators that
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Speaker 1: were unknown at the time the agreement was entered into. Answer,
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Speaker 1: I don't recall having any inside information or information that
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Speaker 1: wasn't publicly available about those events about the investigation in Florida,
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Speaker 1: and it's ultimate, the ultimate plea agreement. To the best
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Speaker 1: of my recollection, I knew what I saw in the papers.
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Speaker 1: I remember at the time having a reaction because there
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Speaker 1: was a hubbub about it. I remember looking or thinking
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Speaker 1: about it and delving a little bit into it. But
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Speaker 1: what happened before I was Attorney general the second time?
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Speaker 1: Question the second time, during either of your tenures as
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Speaker 1: attorney general, have you ever seen a comparable provision that
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Speaker 1: had the same effect? Again? Answer during the time I
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Speaker 1: was Attorney General, I don't recall seeing a comparable provision.
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Speaker 1: I think the thing that I didn't like about it
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Speaker 1: was that it took the victim's elocution rights, and I
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Speaker 1: thought that was pretty aggressive, and I thought it was vulnerable.
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Speaker 1: So that's just my own thinking when I saw it. Question,
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Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Just to ask you, Miss Crockett, can
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Speaker 1: I jump in really quickly redacted? Yeah, Miss Crockett. I'm sorry,
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Speaker 1: I just got to go back to what was just
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Speaker 1: brought up. And during your tenure, during either time you
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Speaker 1: were Attorney General, do you recall there ever being a
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Speaker 1: scenario that you authorized that was similar that disallowed the
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Speaker 1: prosecution of co conspirators in this type of plead deal.
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Speaker 1: Bar You know, I can't specifically remember things that were
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Speaker 1: that I approved, but I'm not sure that provision sticks
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Speaker 1: out to me as odd Crockett. Okay, but you can't
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Speaker 1: recall ever approving anything like that before, right the witness,
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Speaker 1: Right Crockett, Thank you. Back to redacted question. There was
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Speaker 1: discussion during the previous round of chain of communication with
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Speaker 1: de and between Maine Justice and US Attorney's Office. I
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Speaker 1: like to ask you about communication between DOJ and the
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Speaker 1: White House, And again this is focused on both of
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Speaker 1: your tenures as Attorney General. How common was it, generally speaking,
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Speaker 1: for you to communicate directly with the President about investigations
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Speaker 1: that the DOJ was handling. Barr Well, it depends what
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Speaker 1: the investigation was about. On Epstein, I only remember two
10:28
Speaker 1: conversations I had with the president. Question, so could you
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Speaker 1: tell us about those two conversations? Answer? One was when
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Speaker 1: I heard about the suicide. I called him up and said,
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Speaker 1: you better brace for this, and I told them the
10:40
Speaker 1: words to the effect, and I told them about it,
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Speaker 1: and I told them we were going to be investigating
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Speaker 1: it very vigorously. And the second one, I can't say
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Speaker 1: for sure whether it happened before his suicide during meaning
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Speaker 1: around the time of his arrest, or whether it happened
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Speaker 1: after his suicide during the continued developments there. But the
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Speaker 1: topic of Epstein came up in our conversation. Multiple people
11:01
Speaker 1: were there and sort of the news it was commented
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Speaker 1: on being the news of the day, and the President
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Speaker 1: said something to the effect that he had broken off
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Speaker 1: with Epstein long ago and that he had actually pushed
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Speaker 1: him out of mar A Lago. Question. Okay, and just
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Speaker 1: to clarify, those were both conversations with President Trump. Answer,
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Speaker 1: both involved President Trump. Yeah, those are the only two
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Speaker 1: conversations I can remember where Epstein came up with the
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Speaker 1: president question and when you say that you told the
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Speaker 1: president who the news of the suicide would affect. What
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Speaker 1: did you mean by that answer? Who would affect? Did
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Speaker 1: I say that question? I'm sorry, unless I'm misunderstanding your characterization. Answer,
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Speaker 1: I didn't mean to say that question, Okay, Answer I said,
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Speaker 1: I told him that he committed suicide and that he
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Speaker 1: suspected it was apparently suicide. And he had the same
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Speaker 1: reaction I did, which was, how the hell did that happen?
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Speaker 1: He's in federal custody and the last everyone knew, he
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Speaker 1: was being carefully watched, precisely for that reason. And I
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Speaker 1: think I conveyed to him that it was appalling and
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Speaker 1: that we were going to investigate it vigorously, and he
12:07
Speaker 1: had the same reaction I did, which is going to
12:10
Speaker 1: certainly generate a lot of conspiracy theories. These are not
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Speaker 1: his exact words, but that's what I remember about the
12:17
Speaker 1: conversation being effectively maybe words to that effect. Yeah. Question,
12:21
Speaker 1: did President Trump say anything about the conversation? Answer by Barr.
12:26
Speaker 1: That's all I can recall. Question, So, just to tie
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Speaker 1: this all together, would I be correct in understanding that
12:32
Speaker 1: prior to mister Epstein's suicide you did not communicate directly
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Speaker 1: with President Trump in connection with the Epstein investigation. Answer?
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Speaker 1: I said that one conversation I recall could have happened
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Speaker 1: before his suicide, around the time of his arrest. But
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Speaker 1: my best recollection is it happened later? But those are
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Speaker 1: the only two conversations I can remember having with the
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Speaker 1: President directly about Epstein. Mister O'Callahan about Epstein generally, not
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Speaker 1: the Epstein investigation. Barr, Right, yeah, all right, folks, We're
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Speaker 1: going to wrap up right here, and in the next episode,
13:04
Speaker 1: we're going to pick up where we left off. All
13:06
Speaker 1: of the information that goes with this episode can be
13:08
Speaker 1: found in the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome
13:12
Speaker 1: to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode,
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Speaker 1: we're going to pick up where we left off with
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Speaker 1: Bill Barr and his deposition given to Congress question shifting
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Speaker 1: back to Florida's investigation, it's my understanding that you accused
13:27
Speaker 1: yourself during your second tenure as Attorney General from DJ's
13:31
Speaker 1: review of that prosecution and plea agreement. Is that correct answer? No,
13:36
Speaker 1: I didn't recuse myself. I think in my confirmation hearing
13:39
Speaker 1: I put that I didn't want to cross that bridge
13:42
Speaker 1: because I needed to console people about the issue, and
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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure of the timing of things, and so
13:47
Speaker 1: you know, when things occurred and so forth. So later on,
13:50
Speaker 1: when it became an issue, I had it reviewed and
13:53
Speaker 1: got the advice of the ethics people in the DJ,
13:56
Speaker 1: and I did not recuse myself. Question did not accuse yourself?
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Speaker 1: Answer yes, question and this is the Florida investigation. Answer No,
14:05
Speaker 1: it was the to that he's cut off the Southern
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Speaker 1: District of New York investigation. Answer. That's the only thing
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Speaker 1: that I was aware of going on when I was there.
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Speaker 1: Question Okay, So to clarify, did you have any involvement
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Speaker 1: at all in the DJ's review of the Florida investigation
14:22
Speaker 1: that took place during your second tenure. Answer? I don't
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Speaker 1: recall playing a role in that review in terms of
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Speaker 1: whether it was proper. I didn't play a role in
14:31
Speaker 1: that review. I think there was discussion when New York
14:34
Speaker 1: was moving forward with the prosecution, people wanted to be
14:38
Speaker 1: careful that they didn't run a foul of any of
14:40
Speaker 1: the provisions in that agreement. Question and I can be
14:44
Speaker 1: more specific. So it's my understanding that the DOJ's Office
14:48
Speaker 1: of Professional Responsibility undertook an investigation in twenty nineteen into
14:54
Speaker 1: the circumstances surrounding the Florida plea deal. Answer right, I
14:58
Speaker 1: wasn't hovering over that or in that I learned about
15:01
Speaker 1: their conclusions, you know, from when they concluded, when they
15:04
Speaker 1: reached them question after they issued the report. Answer I
15:08
Speaker 1: can't remember exactly when. At some point I learned that
15:11
Speaker 1: OPR was saying that it was improper. Question have you
15:15
Speaker 1: ever discussed the Epstein investigation generally with mister Acosta? Answer?
15:20
Speaker 1: I don't recall discussions of the investigation. I may have
15:23
Speaker 1: around that there was a lot of publicity around the
15:26
Speaker 1: fact that he might be pushed out of the administration.
15:29
Speaker 1: I may have expressed commiseration with them that he was
15:32
Speaker 1: facing that kind of public challenge, but I didn't discuss
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Speaker 1: the investigation. Question What was your understanding of the reason
15:39
Speaker 1: that he was pushed out of the administration? Answer? I
15:42
Speaker 1: don't know. I think he resigned. I think he resigned,
15:45
Speaker 1: So my understanding was he resigned so this didn't continue,
15:49
Speaker 1: this issue didn't continue to haund the administration. That was
15:53
Speaker 1: my recollection of what happened. Question And to your understanding,
15:56
Speaker 1: did he resign on his own initiative or was he
15:59
Speaker 1: under pressure from the White House? Answer? I don't know.
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Speaker 1: I think it was explained as him stepping down to
16:05
Speaker 1: avoid continued problems, But I don't know what happened behind
16:09
Speaker 1: the scenes. With respect to the report that OPR issued,
16:14
Speaker 1: you mentioned that you took issue with, as I understood it,
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Speaker 1: mister Acosta's failure to involve the victims in the process. Answer, well,
16:21
Speaker 1: my recollection and I haven't looked at this, but my
16:24
Speaker 1: recollection is that part of it ended up not allowing
16:27
Speaker 1: the victims to have their say, which is under federal
16:30
Speaker 1: statute they have the right to do. That's my recollection
16:33
Speaker 1: of the issue, and so I thought that I think
16:36
Speaker 1: it's wrong not to let the victims have their say.
16:39
Speaker 1: And here I also thought it was legal vulnerability, but
16:42
Speaker 1: that was just me, as a private citizen saying, well, gee, wow, question,
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Speaker 1: I'll represent to you. The report also concluded that mister
16:51
Speaker 1: Acosta's decision to resolve the federal investigation through the NPA
16:56
Speaker 1: constituted poor judgment and opr's words, among other things, by
17:00
Speaker 1: resolving the federal investigation before significant investigative steps were completed.
17:06
Speaker 1: Is that consistent with your understanding? Answer right now, I
17:09
Speaker 1: don't have a recollection of that question. Mister Acosta reportedly
17:13
Speaker 1: is stated that he was told that Jeffrey Epstein quote
17:16
Speaker 1: belongs to intelligence and to leave it alone. Unquote. Are
17:19
Speaker 1: you aware of mister Acosta saying that? Answer no, other
17:23
Speaker 1: than what's been reported in articles over the years. Question
17:27
Speaker 1: do you have any knowledge of mister Epstein having any
17:29
Speaker 1: ties to any intelligence agency? Answer no, question or of
17:34
Speaker 1: mister Acosta being told Answer I don't know about any ties.
17:38
Speaker 1: I have no reason to believe he was working for
17:40
Speaker 1: the CIA or any intelligence agency, and I'm dubious about
17:43
Speaker 1: claims like that. Now, many American businessmen who have foreign
17:47
Speaker 1: contacts sometimes will talk to intelligence agencies to provide information
17:52
Speaker 1: to them, and the CIA has a unit that goes
17:54
Speaker 1: around and talks to people who are well connected and
17:57
Speaker 1: ask some questions. So my supposition when I saw things
18:01
Speaker 1: about him being connected to US intelligence, maybe like other businessmen,
18:05
Speaker 1: he talks to them, but this is not in my opinion,
18:08
Speaker 1: based on what I saw, I didn't think it was
18:11
Speaker 1: an intelligence operation and I never received any information that
18:15
Speaker 1: led me to believe that. Question do you have any
18:17
Speaker 1: idea why mister Acosta would suggest that it was? Answer?
18:21
Speaker 1: I don't know he did. Whether he did, wasn't that
18:24
Speaker 1: something attributed something to him? Question that's his reported statement? Answer? Okay.
18:30
Speaker 1: Question I'll shift gears now and move on to the
18:32
Speaker 1: Southern District of New York's investigation, and for the sake
18:35
Speaker 1: of brevity, if it's okay with you, I'll refer to
18:38
Speaker 1: Southern District of New York as SDNY. Answer. Sure, that's
18:42
Speaker 1: how I would have referred to it. Question. I understand
18:45
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier that you a determination was made that
18:49
Speaker 1: you would not recuse yourself from the SDNY investigation, And
18:53
Speaker 1: just to make sure my understanding is clear, that was
18:55
Speaker 1: based on input from the Ethics Office at DOJ. Answer
18:59
Speaker 1: that's my recollection. Yeah. Question okay. And do you recall
19:03
Speaker 1: the rationale for concluding that your continued involvement was consistent
19:07
Speaker 1: with ethics regulations? Answer? Because I didn't really have a connection.
19:12
Speaker 1: I wasn't involved in the first investigation. Question there has
19:16
Speaker 1: been mentioned in the press about your father's role as
19:19
Speaker 1: the head master of Dalton School in New York. Was
19:21
Speaker 1: that a consideration in the Ethics Office analysis? Answer? Actually,
19:27
Speaker 1: I don't even think. I don't know whether I was
19:29
Speaker 1: aware of that at the time. Obviously not, it's not
19:31
Speaker 1: pertinent at all. Question. You spoke generally during the previous
19:35
Speaker 1: round about the nature and extent of your involvement in
19:38
Speaker 1: the SDNY investigation. I'd like to just delve into that
19:42
Speaker 1: in a bit more detail if I could. To begin with,
19:45
Speaker 1: could you describe the allocation of responsibility between yourself and
19:49
Speaker 1: US Attorney Berman? Answer? Well, the US Attorney all US
19:53
Speaker 1: attorneys are responsible for pursuing investigations and making prosecutorial judgments. Yeah.
20:00
Speaker 1: Just to clarify, I don't mean generally operationally within DJ
20:04
Speaker 1: I'm speaking specifically with respect to the Epstein investigation. Barr Well,
20:10
Speaker 1: this was a case that was within his purview. He
20:13
Speaker 1: had obviously approved or was involved in, either its launching
20:17
Speaker 1: or continued under him, and so he was responsible for
20:20
Speaker 1: conducting the investigation and making the initial prosecutorial judgments. Also,
20:26
Speaker 1: under the department rules that if he believes there is
20:29
Speaker 1: a basis for investigating someone who is a prominent person
20:32
Speaker 1: or a senior political official or whatever, he is supposed
20:35
Speaker 1: to send an urgent report to my attention. Question, what
20:40
Speaker 1: was the extent during the sdnwise investigation of your interaction
20:44
Speaker 1: with FBI agents? Answer during the investigation of it? Question yes,
20:49
Speaker 1: Epstein investigation. Answer. I would say agents up in New York,
20:53
Speaker 1: but people at headquarters after the suicide, I told the
20:57
Speaker 1: headquarters to make sure that they flooded the zone. That is,
21:00
Speaker 1: they provided the investigative office, which was the New York
21:04
Speaker 1: FBI office, all the resources necessary and made sure that
21:07
Speaker 1: the federal investigation was being done. And Bodich oversaw he's
21:12
Speaker 1: a deputy in Washington. The actual investigation was carried out
21:16
Speaker 1: by New York agents, most of it, I think by
21:18
Speaker 1: New York agents. I didn't have contact with people up
21:21
Speaker 1: in New York the agents up in New York. Question
21:24
Speaker 1: and part bar cuts are off. It's possible that when
21:28
Speaker 1: I was being briefed at some point they would put
21:31
Speaker 1: someone like that on the line to explain something to me.
21:34
Speaker 1: But I didn't seek out contacts with people and the
21:36
Speaker 1: people the FBI made available to me. Question within the
21:41
Speaker 1: FBI headquarters apart for mister Bowdich, was there anyone else
21:44
Speaker 1: you communicated with directly about the investigation? Answer? FBI question. Yes, answer,
21:51
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember who was at the head of
21:53
Speaker 1: Criminal Division. I don't recall anyone other than Bowdich. I
21:57
Speaker 1: think I may have had conversations with Chris Ray about it,
22:00
Speaker 1: of what a mess this thing was. Question and within
22:03
Speaker 1: the SDNY did you ever communicate directly with any of
22:07
Speaker 1: the line prosecutors. Answer no, not that I recall. Question
22:11
Speaker 1: and you spoke in the previous round, as I understood
22:14
Speaker 1: about being briefed by the DAG at the regular meetings
22:18
Speaker 1: that were held at Main Justice, you were briefed by
22:20
Speaker 1: US Attorney Berman as well. Answer you know, I think
22:23
Speaker 1: I probably had conversations with Berman, a general conversation, but
22:28
Speaker 1: I think to the extent that communicated or his people communicated,
22:32
Speaker 1: it would have been more to the Deputy's office, and
22:35
Speaker 1: then I would have been told about it. Question when
22:38
Speaker 1: did your conversation with mister Berman take place? Barr? You know,
22:42
Speaker 1: I can't say for sure when that was. All I
22:45
Speaker 1: know is that I became aware of the investigation. I
22:48
Speaker 1: became aware that there were people that were looking at
22:50
Speaker 1: the issue of whether or not it would be permitted
22:53
Speaker 1: under to what extent there are limitations and polled by
22:56
Speaker 1: Florida Plea agreement, things like that, And I remember my
23:00
Speaker 1: best recollection is I had conversations with them after the
23:03
Speaker 1: suicide where he strongly assured me and made it clear
23:07
Speaker 1: that this was a priority of the office and that
23:09
Speaker 1: they would continue pushing ahead. Question and did you ever
23:13
Speaker 1: discuss with mister Berman, any of the conversations you had
23:16
Speaker 1: with President Trump. Answer no, not that I can recall.
23:20
Speaker 1: Question and again, in terms of the investigative process, were
23:24
Speaker 1: you involved at all in the decision surrounding what charges
23:27
Speaker 1: to bring before the grand jury against mister Epstein? Answer no.
23:32
Speaker 1: Question did you review the indictment? Answer I can't recall
23:35
Speaker 1: reviewing the indictment. I might have been shown it. Question
23:39
Speaker 1: were you to that he cuts her off? But I
23:42
Speaker 1: don't recall it. Question were you briefed regarding the specific
23:46
Speaker 1: charges that SDNY intended to bring? Answer? I think I
23:51
Speaker 1: was told what they were. I don't recall how deep
23:53
Speaker 1: the conversation was. Question was there ever any disagreement between
23:57
Speaker 1: you and SDNY over who to charge or what charges
24:00
Speaker 1: to bring? Answer? I don't remember one. Answer You mean
24:06
Speaker 1: the first time around the initial indictment against Epstein in
24:10
Speaker 1: July O'Callahan. Maybe a timeframe would help the witness July Okallahan,
24:15
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. Are we talking twenty nineteen? Redacted? Yes, witness okay.
24:23
Speaker 1: Question to your knowledge, did anyone else that main justice
24:26
Speaker 1: disagree with the charges that sdn Y intended to bring? Answer?
24:30
Speaker 1: I don't recall any disagreement. Question in the two conversations
24:35
Speaker 1: you have with President Trump, did the President express any
24:38
Speaker 1: views on the investigation? Answer not that I can recall.
24:42
Speaker 1: No question. Did he ever give you any instruction with
24:45
Speaker 1: respect to it? Answer no question, or express any preference?
24:50
Speaker 1: Answer no question with respect to the investigation? Answer no question.
24:57
Speaker 1: To your knowledge, did anyone else at the doj th'cus
25:00
Speaker 1: the SDNY investigation with anyone in the White House? Answer
25:04
Speaker 1: not to my knowledge. Question the FBI's investigation Did that
25:08
Speaker 1: continue post indictment? Answer the FBI's investigation of the suicide.
25:13
Speaker 1: Question the FBI's investigation into mister Epstein's crimes. Barr. My
25:18
Speaker 1: understanding is that the investigation was going forward because they
25:22
Speaker 1: were at the stage looking for people who are complicit
25:26
Speaker 1: in the trafficking, either by facilitating it or by essentially
25:29
Speaker 1: exploiting the victims. Question and do you know how long
25:32
Speaker 1: the FBI's investigation continued? Answer? I think it continued throughout
25:37
Speaker 1: my tenure. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up
25:40
Speaker 1: right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
25:42
Speaker 1: we're gonna pick up where we left off. All of
25:45
Speaker 1: the information that goes with this episode can be found
25:48
Speaker 1: in the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to
25:51
Speaker 1: another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're
25:55
Speaker 1: picking right back up where we left off with the
25:57
Speaker 1: Bill Bard deposition transcript. Question and do you know how
26:02
Speaker 1: long the FBI's investigation continued? Answer? I think it continued
26:06
Speaker 1: throughout my tenure. Question. I'd like to shift the focus
26:09
Speaker 1: on the evidence that the FBI obtained during the course
26:12
Speaker 1: of the investigation, and I'm going to that she's cut
26:16
Speaker 1: off by bar. I think it was an investigation directed
26:19
Speaker 1: by the Southern District, so it involved their prosecutorial team.
26:23
Speaker 1: It wasn't the FBI in the initial stages of the investigation,
26:27
Speaker 1: but they were essentially cut off. Yes, answered by Bar
26:32
Speaker 1: again working with the prosecutors. Question understood. I'm going to
26:36
Speaker 1: ask the court reporter to mark Exhibit A as an
26:39
Speaker 1: ABC News article titled what the Government Evidence List tells
26:42
Speaker 1: us about the unreleased Epstein Files, dated July seventeenth, twenty
26:46
Speaker 1: twenty five, as Exhibit B, a three page catalog of
26:50
Speaker 1: evidence that was reportedly prepared by the FBI. Barr, should
26:54
Speaker 1: I read the whole thing or redacted? No, I can
26:58
Speaker 1: point to you. You're certainly welcome to. I can also
27:00
Speaker 1: point you to the portions that I plan to ask
27:03
Speaker 1: you about Barr. Well, why don't we try that? Redacted? Sure? Question.
27:09
Speaker 1: So the article describes Attorney General Bondi making available, quote
27:13
Speaker 1: unquote the first phase of the classified Epstein files. Mister Barr,
27:18
Speaker 1: were you previously aware of Miss Bondi making these materials public? Answer?
27:22
Speaker 1: Just what I read in the press. Question do you
27:25
Speaker 1: have any understanding as to why Attorney General Bondi did so?
27:29
Speaker 1: Answer I've never discussed the matter with or I don't know.
27:33
Speaker 1: Question And do you have an understanding of what the
27:35
Speaker 1: Epstein files contained? As the phrase is used in this piece. O'Callahan,
27:41
Speaker 1: the lawyer for Barr answers as you mean in the
27:44
Speaker 1: ABC piece witness where it was used redacted. I'm looking
27:51
Speaker 1: at the first sentence of the article that refers to
27:53
Speaker 1: Attorney General Bondi releasing the first phase of the classified
27:57
Speaker 1: Epstein files. It's the very first sentence of the article. Answer, yeah,
28:02
Speaker 1: I see that. Yeah. Question do you have an understanding
28:05
Speaker 1: as to what those files are comprised of? Answer? No question.
28:09
Speaker 1: And then Exhibit B is a catalog, which, according to
28:12
Speaker 1: the ABC piece, is the only document in the first
28:15
Speaker 1: phase of the declassified files that hadn't previously been made public.
28:20
Speaker 1: Answer by Barr. This is what you've given to me. Question,
28:25
Speaker 1: So it's what the ABC piece describes as the only
28:28
Speaker 1: documents in the first phase of the declassified materials that
28:31
Speaker 1: Attorney General paum Bondi released that have not previously been
28:35
Speaker 1: made public. Answer, okay. Question, and my question is have
28:40
Speaker 1: you seen this catalog before? Answer? I don't recall seeing
28:43
Speaker 1: it before. Question Are you familiar with any of the
28:46
Speaker 1: items that it describes? Answer you want me to go
28:50
Speaker 1: through each item. I'm not generally I'll just say this,
28:53
Speaker 1: I'm not generally familiar or even specifically familiar with the
28:56
Speaker 1: evidence amassed by the Southern District to prosecute either Reps
29:00
Speaker 1: before he committed suicide, obviously, and then what they may
29:04
Speaker 1: have collected that affected other potential defendants. In other words,
29:08
Speaker 1: I wasn't monitoring the case that closely to know what
29:11
Speaker 1: the evidence was. Question you mentioned that, Bar. I think
29:16
Speaker 1: while I was there they reached the conclusion that they
29:18
Speaker 1: had a case against Maxwell, and I don't have specific
29:21
Speaker 1: recollections of it, but I'm sure I was briefed on
29:23
Speaker 1: what the charges were and what the evidence supported it. Question. Okay, answer,
29:28
Speaker 1: but I have no way of liking or linking any
29:31
Speaker 1: of this. This is gibberish to me because I have
29:34
Speaker 1: no way of linking the content to the case. Question. Okay,
29:37
Speaker 1: O Callahan redacted. Are you sure Exhibit B is what
29:41
Speaker 1: the article refers to, because the article refers to a
29:43
Speaker 1: three page index, and this is much longer than three
29:46
Speaker 1: pages redacted? Yep, so ed. That is an enhanced version
29:51
Speaker 1: of the catalog, which, if you printed out from the
29:53
Speaker 1: publicly available source, contains typeface that is far smaller. So
29:58
Speaker 1: we blew it up so that your client would be
29:59
Speaker 1: able to read it at the witness table. Mister Callahan, okay,
30:04
Speaker 1: the witness bar Okay, thank you, mister O Callahan, Me too, Barr.
30:09
Speaker 1: I wouldn't know this stuff. I mean, I may have
30:11
Speaker 1: been aware of some of it, but it has to
30:14
Speaker 1: be better identified for me, you know. But as I say,
30:16
Speaker 1: generally speaking, the way I understood what was going on
30:19
Speaker 1: in the Southern District, other than looking at the issue
30:22
Speaker 1: of suicide, which I carefully monitored, was doing what a
30:26
Speaker 1: US attorney office normally does. And my understanding is that
30:29
Speaker 1: at that point after the suicide, they were looking to
30:32
Speaker 1: make to see if there was evidence to charge someone
30:35
Speaker 1: for participating in the trafficking, and I didn't monitor their investigation,
30:39
Speaker 1: as I wouldn't generally monitor an investigation unless there was
30:43
Speaker 1: a particular reason to do so. Redacted. Question you mentioned earlier,
30:49
Speaker 1: as I understood that your knowledge the FBI's investigation continued
30:53
Speaker 1: throughout your tenure as Attorney General. Answer yes, question to
30:58
Speaker 1: your understanding, did it continue after you left? EJ Answer,
31:02
Speaker 1: I don't recall. I think I don't recall, but my
31:06
Speaker 1: impression is that this was a very motivated group of prosecutors,
31:10
Speaker 1: and this was a high priority for the office and
31:12
Speaker 1: for the Department, and they were moving forward. My belief
31:16
Speaker 1: and understanding was if they came across evidence that would
31:19
Speaker 1: establish either that someone helped them in recruiting these young
31:22
Speaker 1: girls or was involved in sexual activity with them, that
31:25
Speaker 1: they would have proceeded on that case. That was my view,
31:29
Speaker 1: and I didn't think that this group of prosecutors would
31:32
Speaker 1: stop until they were satisfied that they had gone through
31:34
Speaker 1: the evidence. So from my standpoint, both for reasons of
31:38
Speaker 1: Justice Department protocol which required them to alert me if
31:42
Speaker 1: they actually started going down that trail, as to any
31:45
Speaker 1: prominent person, and also just from the practicality that I
31:49
Speaker 1: think that kind of information, if someone is trying to
31:51
Speaker 1: sit on it would have bled out eventually. I was
31:54
Speaker 1: not aware of that evidence that they had that they
31:57
Speaker 1: would do that. I was never given reason to believe
32:00
Speaker 1: that they had evidence to make a case. Jasmin Crockett,
32:04
Speaker 1: can I jump in really quickly on this point, just
32:06
Speaker 1: to follow up, It's been widely reported that the President
32:10
Speaker 1: was informed by the current Attorney General of Pound Bondi
32:13
Speaker 1: that he appears in the Department of Justice files on
32:16
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. I'm curious to know in those conversations that
32:20
Speaker 1: you recall with President, do you recall ever informing them
32:23
Speaker 1: that he was in the Epstein files Number one, I'll
32:27
Speaker 1: ask that, so I don't have a compound question the witness. Yeah, well,
32:31
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what Epstein files referred to these days,
32:34
Speaker 1: but no, I didn't have that kind of conversation with them.
32:38
Speaker 1: I think at some point logs were made available or
32:40
Speaker 1: republic that he was on Epstein's plane making commutes from
32:43
Speaker 1: or flying between Miami and New York, or Miami and
32:47
Speaker 1: New Jersey or stuff like that. And I think that
32:49
Speaker 1: that got out publicly. I don't recall discussing that with them,
32:53
Speaker 1: miss Crockett, okay, bar And I can't even remember when
32:57
Speaker 1: it came out, Crockett, okay. So to be clear, you
33:00
Speaker 1: had no direct knowledge of the president himself being named
33:04
Speaker 1: in the Epstein investigation, is what you're telling us, Barr. No,
33:09
Speaker 1: I'm saying that in the year many years up to
33:11
Speaker 1: the case, there had been news coverage reporting on essentially
33:15
Speaker 1: two kinds of people, people who were either in business
33:18
Speaker 1: or social networks and had connections with them, which to
33:21
Speaker 1: me doesn't mean that is a crime. And there are
33:24
Speaker 1: many names thrown around, like then, there were names that
33:27
Speaker 1: were specific credible evidence or a specific serious evidence by,
33:31
Speaker 1: for example, a victim, a specific victim that were exploited
33:34
Speaker 1: by a particular person. So there were those sort of people,
33:39
Speaker 1: and my understanding was that the New York Office was
33:42
Speaker 1: trying to see if there was in fact any evidence
33:44
Speaker 1: to support that any of these people actually violated the law.
33:48
Speaker 1: Jasmin Crockett, and you have no direct knowledge of any
33:51
Speaker 1: of the now young women or women that claimed that
33:54
Speaker 1: they had encounters with the president through Epstein. Correct, Barr.
33:59
Speaker 1: I was never told by the Southern District that they
34:01
Speaker 1: had evidence to support any claim like that. Crockett, thank you, witness.
34:05
Speaker 1: As to who as to Trump? Crockett, Yes, Witness, Yeah, Crockett, Sorry,
34:10
Speaker 1: President Trump. Witness. I was never told that there was
34:13
Speaker 1: evidence to support that claim, Jasmin Crockett, I'm done. Sorry.
34:18
Speaker 1: Question just shifting back to the evidence that the FBI gathered.
34:22
Speaker 1: There have been reports of hidden cameras and recording systems
34:24
Speaker 1: at Jeffrey Epstein's New York residence. Are you aware of
34:28
Speaker 1: the existence of any such cameras and a recording system? Answer?
34:32
Speaker 1: I think when the search I was aware. I can't
34:35
Speaker 1: even remember if it was after I left or while
34:37
Speaker 1: I was there, but I remember that there were cameras
34:39
Speaker 1: uncovered during the searches that were made of the Manhattan Building,
34:43
Speaker 1: and I think also the island maybe even wasn't there
34:46
Speaker 1: a place in New Mexico as well. I heard that
34:48
Speaker 1: there were things being uncovered like that bullshit. Nobody ever
34:52
Speaker 1: rated Zoro Ranch, Bill Barr. This guy knows a lot
34:55
Speaker 1: more than he's telling us. Count on it. Question, did
34:59
Speaker 1: you ever see the footage? Answer? No? Question from the system?
35:02
Speaker 1: Answer no question? And is that footage, to your knowledge
35:05
Speaker 1: still within the possession of the DOJ. Answer, whatever information
35:10
Speaker 1: was collected, I have no reason to think it's not
35:13
Speaker 1: in their possession. I never went and looked at the
35:15
Speaker 1: evidence that they were collecting. Question do you have an
35:18
Speaker 1: understanding as to why that material hasn't been publicly released? Answer?
35:23
Speaker 1: I have no knowledge as to why, but I think
35:25
Speaker 1: I understand the potential reasons for it. Question which in
35:29
Speaker 1: your viewer what answer? Well, I mean, in terms of
35:32
Speaker 1: conducting an investigation, you would have some stuff that's grand
35:35
Speaker 1: jury material that was collected pursuant to the grand jury
35:38
Speaker 1: process and through the grand jury process, and that would
35:41
Speaker 1: normally not be made public. And I think there are
35:44
Speaker 1: strong reasons for not making grand jury public, including requiring
35:47
Speaker 1: the approval of a court's approval. As to other evidence,
35:52
Speaker 1: I think there are strong policy reasons not to make
35:54
Speaker 1: it available, which an attorney general at the time has
35:57
Speaker 1: to make judgments as to what are the reasons to
35:59
Speaker 1: make a public and one of the reasons against making
36:02
Speaker 1: it public and among the reasons for not making it
36:05
Speaker 1: public generally just here all is is because there are frequently,
36:10
Speaker 1: there's frequently tidbits of evidence that can be cast publicly
36:13
Speaker 1: as incriminating when in fact, against all of the evidence,
36:16
Speaker 1: it isn't, and the judgments about credibility are made. I
36:20
Speaker 1: think we've all seen examples where three zero two's don't
36:22
Speaker 1: necessarily could be wrong on something they say. A witness
36:26
Speaker 1: could later say I didn't say that, and so forth.
36:28
Speaker 1: So you have to be careful about what you say
36:30
Speaker 1: about people. And so the general principle is that if
36:34
Speaker 1: you have enough evidence to charge someone, you put that
36:36
Speaker 1: evidence out through the process. But you don't just open
36:39
Speaker 1: your files. So I can understand why there is reluctance
36:42
Speaker 1: to it. And as I say, an attorney general has
36:46
Speaker 1: to make balance question. As we saw a few minutes
36:50
Speaker 1: ago when we looked at the ABC article exhibit A Attorney
36:53
Speaker 1: General Pam BONDI did release a significant volume of material
36:57
Speaker 1: earlier this year. Do you disagree with their decision to
36:59
Speaker 1: do that? Answer? No, I don't agree or disagree. I
37:03
Speaker 1: haven't kept up with what's in there. And as I say,
37:06
Speaker 1: it's sort of an individual judgment based on balancing. And
37:10
Speaker 1: I don't have transparency into all the factors that are
37:13
Speaker 1: at play here. I mean a lot of the information
37:16
Speaker 1: is out there because of civil cases. You know, that's
37:19
Speaker 1: another important part of the context here. A lot to
37:22
Speaker 1: the extent there are victims, I mean, which obviously there
37:24
Speaker 1: are victims, but a lot of those victims have neither
37:27
Speaker 1: been encouraged to bring civil suits or have brought civil suits.
37:31
Speaker 1: And in that context, a lot of the evidence has
37:33
Speaker 1: been released through those cases. Question and just so we're
37:37
Speaker 1: clear on the parameters, Am I correct that it was
37:40
Speaker 1: within the Attorney general's authority to release materials like this
37:43
Speaker 1: at his or her discretion. Answer, well, there's no law
37:47
Speaker 1: against it. I guess the way I look at it,
37:50
Speaker 1: there's no law against it except for grand jury secrecy.
37:53
Speaker 1: That's my understanding of the situation. Question okay, answer, but
37:58
Speaker 1: there are consequences for releasing everything out there, because that
38:01
Speaker 1: will make it harder to conduct investigations in the future
38:04
Speaker 1: on anything if people say, whatever they say is going
38:08
Speaker 1: to be out in public, even though it's not evidence
38:10
Speaker 1: of a crime. Question, are there, in your view certain
38:14
Speaker 1: categories of cases that rise to a level of public
38:17
Speaker 1: interest such that the release of this kind of information
38:21
Speaker 1: is appropriate despite the considerations that you just articulated. Answer, Well,
38:26
Speaker 1: part of my direct experience was obviously the Muller Report.
38:30
Speaker 1: Now it's not exactly the same kind of situation, but
38:33
Speaker 1: there I did agree to put out the reports, even
38:36
Speaker 1: though it canvassed a lot of the evidence, but we
38:38
Speaker 1: sanitized it for the grand jury material ever, classified material,
38:42
Speaker 1: and also material that was unfair to third parties who
38:45
Speaker 1: we were not charging. If we weren't charging someone with
38:47
Speaker 1: a crime or accusing someone of a committing a crime,
38:51
Speaker 1: that was one of the other considerations that we used.
38:54
Speaker 1: But we did at the end of the day, I
38:56
Speaker 1: felt the public interest demanded putting out what we put out. Question,
39:01
Speaker 1: do you think that a case for a public release
39:03
Speaker 1: in the instance of the Mueller report was stronger or
39:06
Speaker 1: weaker than the case with respect to the Epstein material. Answer?
39:11
Speaker 1: You know, it had to do with the head of
39:12
Speaker 1: state and whether he was a Russian spy. I don't
39:15
Speaker 1: think you can get more important than that. All right, folks,
39:17
Speaker 1: So we're gonna wrap up right here, and in the
39:19
Speaker 1: next episode, we're gonna pick up where we left off.
39:22
Speaker 1: All of the information that goes with this episode can
39:24
Speaker 1: be found in the description box. What's up, everyone, and
39:27
Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode,
39:32
Speaker 1: we're going to pick up where we left off with
39:34
Speaker 1: Bill Barr and his deposition before Congress. Question shifting back
39:42
Speaker 1: to the evidence. As you're probably aware, there's been significant
39:46
Speaker 1: focus on the possible existence of what's been described as
39:49
Speaker 1: an Epstein client list. Is that a term that you've
39:52
Speaker 1: heard before? Answer by Barr. I've heard the term, but
39:56
Speaker 1: I've always been confused as to what it actually referred to.
39:59
Speaker 1: I think it needs to be clarified. Question do you
40:02
Speaker 1: have an understanding as to what the terms refer to? Answer? Well,
40:06
Speaker 1: I guess my view as Epstein sort of had three lives.
40:09
Speaker 1: He was a socialite and he had a lot of
40:11
Speaker 1: social activity that was legal, and he was meeting prominent
40:15
Speaker 1: people all over the place socially. Second, he was a
40:18
Speaker 1: business guy and had business relationships all over the place.
40:21
Speaker 1: And third he had a perverted practice or recruiting young
40:24
Speaker 1: girls for his own satisfaction, and there were some allegations
40:28
Speaker 1: that he made those girls available the contacts of his
40:31
Speaker 1: And so when I hear a client list, are we
40:33
Speaker 1: talking about his financial clients? I doubt it. Are we
40:36
Speaker 1: talking about his social phone book? I doubt it? Are
40:39
Speaker 1: we talking about are we sort of equating this to
40:42
Speaker 1: acting like a madman out of bordello, and that he
40:45
Speaker 1: sort of has a list of his clients that used
40:47
Speaker 1: the bordello. That's what I think people are referring to.
40:50
Speaker 1: Question so answer, So that's how I take the term question. So,
40:55
Speaker 1: with that understanding, are you aware of a list that
40:58
Speaker 1: fits the category that you just DisCrit answer like a
41:01
Speaker 1: bordello madam? Question? Yes? Answer No, I was never told
41:06
Speaker 1: that there was such a list. I don't have a
41:08
Speaker 1: reason to think that there is such a list. But
41:11
Speaker 1: by that, we're talking about a list that's put together
41:13
Speaker 1: by him. Okay, he's compiled something. That's not to say
41:17
Speaker 1: that by going through the evidence, interviews, statements of the victims,
41:20
Speaker 1: and so forth, you couldn't figure out who some of
41:23
Speaker 1: those people were. Question. But again, just tying all this
41:26
Speaker 1: together to your understanding, does there exist a single document
41:30
Speaker 1: that contains the names of individuals who had participated in
41:34
Speaker 1: or were complicit in the crimes that Jeffrey Epstein was
41:36
Speaker 1: charged with? Answer? I have no reason. I was never
41:40
Speaker 1: told that that was the case by the SDNY or
41:43
Speaker 1: the FBI. Question. In public statements, Attorney General Pam Bondi
41:48
Speaker 1: had initially seemed to acknowledge that such a document existed
41:52
Speaker 1: and was asked specifically about quote unquote the client list,
41:55
Speaker 1: but then backtracked, as reflected in the July twenty twenty
41:59
Speaker 1: five memorandum for the FBI that explicitly disclaims the existence
42:04
Speaker 1: of any such list. Do you have any understanding as
42:06
Speaker 1: to why Attorney General Bondi initially made that representation. Answer no,
42:12
Speaker 1: I have no knowledge. I could see that her explanation.
42:16
Speaker 1: I heard her explanation of it, and I think it's
42:18
Speaker 1: potentially a good explanation. I don't discount it. Question did
42:22
Speaker 1: it strike you as unusual that she changed your position publicly? Answer? Well,
42:27
Speaker 1: I don't know if she changed your position. My understanding
42:31
Speaker 1: is that, and I did watch the interview that she
42:33
Speaker 1: you know, she started answering. She was basically geared up
42:36
Speaker 1: to answer the question about how she was going to
42:39
Speaker 1: get the material out, and the question or at the
42:42
Speaker 1: end put in the phrase client list, and she blew
42:45
Speaker 1: through that and just gave the answer she was going
42:48
Speaker 1: to give, like it's on my desk. And her explanation
42:50
Speaker 1: I think is that she was referring to the file
42:53
Speaker 1: that she intended to put out. I don't discount that,
42:56
Speaker 1: but I have no knowledge. Question Okay, are you aware
42:59
Speaker 1: of the doctor document that Jeffrey Epstein kept that he
43:01
Speaker 1: referred to in the press as quote unquote the black book? Answer?
43:06
Speaker 1: Do I have knowledge of what question? A document that
43:09
Speaker 1: the press is described as maintained by mister Epstein and
43:12
Speaker 1: referred to as a black book. Answer. I think I've
43:15
Speaker 1: heard I've seen that expression in the media, But as
43:18
Speaker 1: I say, no one has ever And I sort of
43:20
Speaker 1: took that as the client list since versus as a
43:23
Speaker 1: phone book with his everybody in it that he socializes
43:26
Speaker 1: or does business with. And as I've said, no one
43:29
Speaker 1: has ever indicated to me that there is something one
43:31
Speaker 1: place that compiles the people that he essentially exploited these
43:35
Speaker 1: girls by providing them to these individuals. Question. So you
43:40
Speaker 1: haven't seen a phone directory that mister Epstein compiled. Answer
43:43
Speaker 1: not that I can recall. You mean a phone directory
43:45
Speaker 1: of what question containing names of people that were associated
43:49
Speaker 1: with mister Epstein. Answer just generally associated. I don't recall that,
43:53
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't be what It wouldn't surprise me. I
43:56
Speaker 1: wouldn't think that by itself it had evidentiary value other
44:00
Speaker 1: than that he knew a person. You mentioned earlier that
44:03
Speaker 1: the FBI continued to investigate the existence of possible co
44:07
Speaker 1: conspirators of mister Epstein. Could you just generally walk us
44:11
Speaker 1: through the investigative steps that DOJ took to pursue those
44:14
Speaker 1: co conspirators? Answer? I mean that was done by the
44:18
Speaker 1: Southern District. I mean the person in charge of the
44:20
Speaker 1: investigation was US attorney Jeff Berman, and he had an
44:24
Speaker 1: experienced team, and they would have he would have to
44:27
Speaker 1: the extent that there was any direction or judgments being
44:30
Speaker 1: made that required supervision, he would have made them, not me. Question,
44:35
Speaker 1: did you have any visibility into subpoena that SDNY issued?
44:39
Speaker 1: Answer visibility in the sense of reproving them ahead of time.
44:42
Speaker 1: I don't recall approving subpoenas in that case. I don't
44:45
Speaker 1: recall issues coming up to me. It's possible, I mean
44:48
Speaker 1: a lot was coming in question. And what about knowledge
44:53
Speaker 1: after the fact that they had been issued? Answer well,
44:56
Speaker 1: I think to the extent I read things that may
44:58
Speaker 1: have involved like that. I assume they got search warrants
45:01
Speaker 1: to collect stuff from the house and things like that. Question,
45:05
Speaker 1: but you didn't get any direct information from SDNY regarding
45:08
Speaker 1: the issuance of subpoenas answer, not that I can recall.
45:12
Speaker 1: Question and what about witness interviews? Answer? I think there
45:16
Speaker 1: was a dispute over Prince Andrew. Question okay, and how
45:19
Speaker 1: did you he interrupts her? Not between me and the office,
45:23
Speaker 1: but between Prince Andrew and the Southern District. And I
45:26
Speaker 1: was aware of the dispute because I forgot how I
45:28
Speaker 1: became aware, whether it was public or what? Question? And
45:32
Speaker 1: what do you recall of the dispute? Answer? I think
45:35
Speaker 1: they wanted to talk to him and he wouldn't really
45:36
Speaker 1: submit to an interview. That's my recollection of what the
45:39
Speaker 1: dispute was over. Question and did you discuss that with
45:42
Speaker 1: the askedn why answer? No? I think after the fact,
45:46
Speaker 1: I think Berman went out and gave a pretty strong statement.
45:49
Speaker 1: I think he may have been standing in front of
45:50
Speaker 1: the house, as I recall, something to that effect. And
45:53
Speaker 1: it was about Andrew basically trying to say publicly that
45:56
Speaker 1: he was cooperating and in real fact he was not cooperating.
46:00
Speaker 1: And I think I talked to him about that question
46:03
Speaker 1: talk to answer after it was his question, mister Berman
46:09
Speaker 1: bar yeah. Question. A number of prominent individuals have been
46:13
Speaker 1: alleged to be connected to mister Epstein as his clients
46:16
Speaker 1: or otherwise as associates. What I'd like to do is
46:19
Speaker 1: read to you a list of names, and for each
46:22
Speaker 1: I ask you to state whether, to your knowledge, that
46:24
Speaker 1: individual was within the scope of DJ's investigation. If anything,
46:29
Speaker 1: DOJ determined with respect to the individual? Does that make sense? Answer? Yeah,
46:34
Speaker 1: But I mean I don't know what within the scope
46:36
Speaker 1: of investigation means, whether they were subjects or targets. Question.
46:40
Speaker 1: How about witnesses, subjects or targets O'Callahan. In an Epstein
46:45
Speaker 1: investigation that lasted for multiple decades, You're going to ask
46:48
Speaker 1: him if any of these individuals were ever somehow part
46:51
Speaker 1: of that investigation redacted? Yeah, O'Callahan, that's too broad. I
46:56
Speaker 1: don't think it actually comports with what was stated. The
46:59
Speaker 1: scope of this is redacted. Okay, I can come at
47:02
Speaker 1: it in a different way. I'll just read the first name,
47:05
Speaker 1: Alan Dershowitz. Did mister Dershowitz, to your knowledge, ever become
47:08
Speaker 1: relevant to the Epstein investigation in any respect? The witness
47:12
Speaker 1: I don't know, Okallahan. And this is all Barr I assumed.
47:18
Speaker 1: I did not go and ask them who you're talking to? Now,
47:21
Speaker 1: that in itself sort of suggests they're targeting someone or
47:24
Speaker 1: even think someone is a subject versus a witness and
47:27
Speaker 1: so forth. But I didn't get into that. I didn't
47:29
Speaker 1: go up to them and say, gee, are you looking
47:31
Speaker 1: into Dershowitz? Are you looking into Governor Richardson? Are you
47:35
Speaker 1: looking into George Mitchell? Are you looking at Donald Trump?
47:37
Speaker 1: Are you looking at Branson? Or whatever? I didn't do that. Well,
47:40
Speaker 1: maybe you should have. How about that, Darth barr I
47:44
Speaker 1: saw names appearing in the media hyping all these so
47:48
Speaker 1: called connections. I did not ask them whether, but I
47:51
Speaker 1: assume that some of these people were examined redacted. So
47:54
Speaker 1: you didn't discuss Alan Dershowitz with anyone else within DJ
47:58
Speaker 1: the witness no I obviously may have mentioned, may have
48:02
Speaker 1: discussed Dershowitz sifting around my office saying wow, O'Callahan. That's
48:06
Speaker 1: part of the problem is that there's so much media
48:09
Speaker 1: reporting witness, right, O'Callahan, media reporting on individuals that in
48:14
Speaker 1: common workplace conversation, stuff like that happens. He just happens
48:18
Speaker 1: to be the Attorney General of the United States. Barr
48:22
Speaker 1: I did not delve into the investigation of Epstein redacted,
48:25
Speaker 1: so Barr, I let the investigators let the chips fall
48:29
Speaker 1: where they may redacted understood. So again, just for the
48:32
Speaker 1: sake of clarity, Apart from information that came to you
48:35
Speaker 1: through the media, what was publicly reported was, to your knowledge,
48:39
Speaker 1: Alan Dershowitz relevant to the investigation in any way. Barr,
48:43
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean these questions are a little
48:46
Speaker 1: bit too broad for my taste, O'Callahan. It's a very
48:49
Speaker 1: difficult thing you're asking him to do. Barr. Of course
48:52
Speaker 1: he's relevant to the investigation. You would think redacted. Were
48:56
Speaker 1: there discussions within the DOJ about Alan Dershowitz to your
48:59
Speaker 1: recollect Barr, as I say, sitting around my office, people
49:03
Speaker 1: could say, ge Professor Dershowitz is in hot water. But
49:07
Speaker 1: I did not. I was not in communication with the
49:09
Speaker 1: SDNY about the handling of the investigation. Oh callahan, I
49:15
Speaker 1: mean that might be an approach if SDNY ever briefed them.
49:18
Speaker 1: You know, these people are being targets of the investigation
49:21
Speaker 1: because SDNY, as he testified to over and over again,
49:24
Speaker 1: was in charge of the investigation, so they were going
49:27
Speaker 1: to report they would have reported an urgent matter to them. Barr.
49:32
Speaker 1: I don't recall any discussion with SDNY where we discussed
49:35
Speaker 1: the nature and weight of evidence that they had against
49:38
Speaker 1: the individuals that, in my mind had been identified publicly
49:42
Speaker 1: as people who could be involved and in proper activities.
49:47
Speaker 1: I was told that the office had evidence in its
49:50
Speaker 1: possession that established that somebody was involved in those activities.
49:53
Speaker 1: I don't remember sitting down discussing, you know, g here's
49:57
Speaker 1: the weight of the evidence, or here's something that gives
49:59
Speaker 1: us leads we can pursue. I wasn't focused on, you know, myself,
50:04
Speaker 1: looking at or hovering over the handling of that case.
50:08
Speaker 1: Question Okay, So for the rest of the names, I
50:10
Speaker 1: will couch the question as follows. Did you ever become
50:13
Speaker 1: aware of each of these individuals either being a witness
50:17
Speaker 1: or subject or a target in the SDN why investigation? Answer?
50:21
Speaker 1: Become aware of you had things published all the time?
50:25
Speaker 1: Question right bar in the press. Question about their formal
50:29
Speaker 1: status in the dj investigation. I don't think that would
50:32
Speaker 1: be publicly reported. Answer? Okay, the formal status that was
50:36
Speaker 1: provided to me by the SDN. Y question yup, that's
50:39
Speaker 1: all I'm asking answer Okay. Question so the next name
50:42
Speaker 1: is David Copperfield. Answer I don't recall that being so question,
50:46
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson. I don't recall that being so question Prince
50:51
Speaker 1: Andrew Barr. And when I say I don't recall, I
50:53
Speaker 1: mean my best recollection. I did not get that information question. Okay,
50:58
Speaker 1: answer go ahead. I'm I just read down the list,
51:01
Speaker 1: Oh Callahan, I think the question about Prince Andrew is pending. Barr.
51:05
Speaker 1: That's right, I was aware of Prince Andrew's issue. You know,
51:07
Speaker 1: go through the list. I'll tell you, Oh, Callahan, So
51:10
Speaker 1: just to clarify, you're aware of Prince Andrew being sought
51:13
Speaker 1: as a witness by the Southern District Barr, Yes, and
51:19
Speaker 1: then he disputed over him cooperating. I was aware of
51:21
Speaker 1: that question. Bill Clinton Barr, same answer question, Bill Richardson answer,
51:28
Speaker 1: same answer question. George Mitchell, same answer question. Glenn Dubin,
51:32
Speaker 1: same answer, Bill Gates, same answer question, Leon Black, same
51:37
Speaker 1: answer question. Okay, Now, Jasmin Crockett interrupts. Just to clarify,
51:42
Speaker 1: when you're saying, same answer, is that the same answer
51:45
Speaker 1: as Prince Andrew or is that the same answer as
51:47
Speaker 1: the prior because the witness the ones other than that, Crockett,
51:51
Speaker 1: they were different witness other than Prince Andrew Crockett. Okay,
51:55
Speaker 1: just to be clear for the record, and really really quickly,
51:58
Speaker 1: I'm going to jump in just before we after wrap,
52:00
Speaker 1: because we're talking about the investigations. Maxwell was investigated during
52:04
Speaker 1: your tenure, not necessarily taken to trial while you were
52:08
Speaker 1: still at the DOJ. She is someone that was involved
52:11
Speaker 1: in the SDNY situation. You were aware that she was
52:14
Speaker 1: not born in this country, correct bar. Yes, Crockett. Okay.
52:19
Speaker 1: You were also aware that a jury of her peers
52:21
Speaker 1: found her guilty of five out of six counts that
52:24
Speaker 1: were brought against her by the SDNY, including child sex
52:27
Speaker 1: trafficking conspiracy, correct bar. Yes, Crockett. In addition to that,
52:33
Speaker 1: you have been made aware through public reports. Well, let
52:35
Speaker 1: me clarify this child sex trafficking is not considered to
52:38
Speaker 1: be a low level offense in the federal government, correct bar.
52:42
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what low level means, but it's a
52:44
Speaker 1: serious offense, Crockett. It's definitely a felony, correct bar. Oh, yes, Crockett,
52:51
Speaker 1: and a person can face up to life imprisonment for it,
52:53
Speaker 1: correct Barr. I haven't looked at the statute, but that
52:56
Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me. Crockett. Okay. And typically when someone is
53:00
Speaker 1: classified by the time that they enter into the Bureau
53:03
Speaker 1: of Prisons, their classification is usually based upon a multitude
53:06
Speaker 1: of things, one of them being how serious of an
53:09
Speaker 1: offensive person has been found guilty of, correct witness. That's
53:13
Speaker 1: one of the factors, Crockett, Okay, in addition to their
53:16
Speaker 1: criminal history and other things. But long story short, they're
53:19
Speaker 1: looking at whether or not the person is potentially a
53:22
Speaker 1: danger to the community, correct Barr. That's another factor, Crockett.
53:27
Speaker 1: When you were reading your public things, I'm assuming you've
53:29
Speaker 1: heard that there has been a transfer approved from MS
53:31
Speaker 1: Maxwell to a minimum security prison camp. Are you aware
53:35
Speaker 1: of that? Oh, Callahan, you're referring to press reports, Congresswoman Crockett, Yes,
53:40
Speaker 1: because that bar I've seen, Crockett, that would be the
53:44
Speaker 1: only way, Barr says, I've seen those reports, Crockett during
53:48
Speaker 1: your tenure as Attorney General, during either time. I'm curious
53:51
Speaker 1: to know, are you ever is it ever within your
53:54
Speaker 1: recollection that there was someone who had been convicted, finally convicted. Well,
53:58
Speaker 1: I guess it's not final. She's still on appeal, convicted
54:01
Speaker 1: of five counts of child sex trafficking, and they somehow
54:04
Speaker 1: ended up transferred to a minimum security prison camp. Barr.
54:08
Speaker 1: I mean, off the top of my head, I can't
54:10
Speaker 1: remember a situation like that, Jasmin Crockett. In fact, you'd
54:14
Speaker 1: agree with me that in order for someone to be
54:16
Speaker 1: transferred under those types of circumstances, it would actually take
54:19
Speaker 1: a higher level of approval. That is not something that
54:23
Speaker 1: just any low level BOP person would be able to do.
54:26
Speaker 1: Correct Barr, I wish that were correct. You never know, Crockett,
54:32
Speaker 1: because mistakes happen. Bar. Yeah, sometimes you wake up and
54:36
Speaker 1: you find that something's happened, like taking someone off suicide watch, Crockett.
54:40
Speaker 1: But you would agree with me that the policy in
54:43
Speaker 1: general is not to put someone who's been convicted of
54:45
Speaker 1: those types of crimes into a minimum security camp. Bar. Actually,
54:50
Speaker 1: I think the way the system works is the political
54:52
Speaker 1: level usually allows the Bureau of Prisons broad leeway in
54:56
Speaker 1: determining how people are handled under their structure and using
54:59
Speaker 1: their criteria, and if they disagree, they might intervene. Crockett understood, Bar,
55:05
Speaker 1: That's how I think the system generally operates. Crockett understood.
55:10
Speaker 1: To the best of your knowledge, whether it's during your
55:13
Speaker 1: tenure or during reports, she has never been in the
55:17
Speaker 1: type of facility in the last four years of her
55:19
Speaker 1: incarceration until now. Correct, bar I gather that's the case, Crockett. Okay, thanks,
55:26
Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna wrap up right here, and we're
55:28
Speaker 1: gonna pick up where we left off in the next episode.
55:31
Speaker 1: All of the information that goes with this episode can
55:34
Speaker 1: be found in the description box.