Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 068: Cazenovia, Wisconsin. Steven Rinella talks with the outdoor writer Pat Durkin, "Buckman" Doug Duren, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater crew.

Transcript

Ep. 068: Cazenovia, Wisconsin. Steven Rinella talks with the outdoor writer Pat Durkin, "Buckman" Doug Duren, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater crew. · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by first light. Go farther, stay longer, now,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: pat dir our. Coyotes really killing eating all the deer?
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Is it as bad as everyone thinks? No, it's not
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: as bad as their bay thinks. Um, why does everyone
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: think it's so bad? Is it more fun to think
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: about coyotes killing deer than other ship killing deer? Yeah?
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, but there's something about
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: coyotes and something about wolves that really gets under hunters
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: skin that you know you can you can show them research.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: It shows like in Wisconsin, and only Wisconsin. About five
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: years ago they wrapped this research and the number one
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: killer of aawns you know, yet one fawns that basically
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: hit the ground in the first three weeks of life
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: are picked off. Go ahead, black bears, exactly exactly. It's
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: anywhere from ten of those fawns are being picked off
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: by black bears, and a few guys will complain about it,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: but for the most part, they'll always default to the coyote.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: And you look at the numbers on this particular study,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: and that's probably a pretty representative study because they have
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: all the major predators in this area. It was six
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: percent of the kills were definitely tied to coyotes six
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: and black bears. Oh, they had at least ten percent,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: but it's more likely close because as soon as you
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: got about a month out of the finding season, because
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: you know, part of that is he's unknown, they weren't
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: quite sure what got it because everything is basically cleaned up, gone.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: And but as soon as they got out of that
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: the first month, this is typically when the black bears
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: are hitting them. That just dropped right off. Those unidentifies
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: dropped right off because they can get him up until
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: they're able to get up. Yeah, because the black bears,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: they probably gonna run very far to chased on a
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: fun and once that phone gets moldering, you know, they
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: let it go. Now, have you ever killed a coyote?
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Class I like, I'm guessing. I guess is no, because
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: you call him coyotes. I could be here and I
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: found in general, I've found that people who have killed
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: him call him coyotes. Well mine, because I think they
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: don't want it to sound so cute. And people that
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: have not tend to call him coyotes. I called I'm
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: more I guess I'm more formal, you know if but
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: you might. But historian was telling me that I might
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: be right about that about killing him. No, no, no,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: no he didn't. He didn't. He wasn't interest in that
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: theory at all. But he didn't. He didn't think that
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: was right just to history of calling him coylets and coyotes. Yeah, well,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: to answer your question, though, I shot one with the
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: bow and arrow, I shot one with the shotgun and
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: didn't get either of them. Both got away from me. Yeah,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: we're wounding loss basically. Now, why um, why were you
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: shooting at him? That's a good question this man man
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: dislikes well and in both cases is you know, it's
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: it's one of those odd things that I can't really explain.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: I would never do that to a fox a kyote.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: I let their all go and I pulled the trigger
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: on the shotgun. And my daughter was with me when
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I shot the one with the shotgun. Were turkey hunting,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: and she asked for why did you do that? I
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: couldn't give her a good answer. Control have I have
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: no illusion about that? Yeah, see, I don't. I don't
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: generally like UM I have and the last one I
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: shot at we eight, but I don't shoot at him.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: The first time I ever came to meet dog during
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: here and we're in and right here and what dirt
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: myth calls Casanova, Wisconsin actually miles south of Casinova, Wisconsin.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: First time I ever came to visit, I got scolded
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: by Doug because some coyotes come peel them through. I
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: was on We're doing a mooch a drive and some
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: coyotes peeled through and Doug was a little shocked that
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: didn't take a poke at him. I do remember that,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: and I and your reason for not doing it was
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: not something oh they're just trying to make a living too,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: or something. I don't know if you were coming right.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: I don't want to go make and I don't want
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: to go blouching and have the yeah you know, but no,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: I don't have but but but I have. I don't
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: touch him anymore. I'm kind of the same if I'm
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: kind of interesting, and I know that there are plenty
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: of guys that are hunting him. And then I've listened
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: to uh you talking with Dan Flores and uh and
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: looked into that a little bit more of myself, and
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: it sounds like you shoot them and they're just you
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: shoot one that is being replaced by two. Yeah, that's
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: not even why I don't do my thing about is
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I just don't like if I if I wanted, if
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: I had need for a kyo hide, right like, if
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: I was gonna if I had some, if my wife
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: wanted something, or I was gonna make something for myself,
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: I would definitely in the winter get a nice one
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: for to use the pelt if I needed to, may
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: have something made. But it's like, I just you know, what,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: do you walk over there and I eight one. I
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: can tell you they're not like I'm not gonna get
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: them for that reason, so you walk over and like,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: oh there he is, Yep, got them? Ye. I mean
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: I just like I don't. I don't think you're like
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: really turning the tide on um unless you're like doing
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: it in a very concerted way, like in a very systematic,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: concerted way. I don't think you're like turning the tide
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: on predation by like randomly now and then you'll never
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: make a dent in him with a rifle, you know,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: just like like just through right. You can go out
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: and call them, go afterm the gristly as you want.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: He's saying. You're saying actively from doing. Like Doug has
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: a scrap pile here in the woods where he dumps
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: bones and stuff. You could probably put those all the
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: place and POLLINGDVI couty that comes in and it's still
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: that's not gonna make it make a dent. The guys
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: that are really serious about coyote control, and for deer
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: management reasons, they pretty much are trappers. They're they're getting
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: out there in the spring anton they can get them especially,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: but spring is a really good time to get him,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: I guess. And they'll build those trapped the ship coyotes.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: And then the guy said, as soon as you lay
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: off and come back and call the months, it's like
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: you never did, It's like you never trapped. Yeah, they
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: replace themselves. It's just a guy I know named Creig Harper,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Professor dont Tennessee. He he always refers to as weak
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: control trying to pull weeds. You can go out in
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: the garden, pull weeds, pull weeds, get that garden cleaned out,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: and if you leave it alone for a week, come
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: back it's right back everything up again. And that's pretty
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: much the way coyotes are. You know what, someone here's
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: why I want to get the well, we'll talk about
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: this that we're done talking about now. I saw a
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: new guy who was talking about why you know, and
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: we're in the Midwest time my white tails right now.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: But with him I was about elk in the west.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: Why are people pissed about wolves when they know that
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: lions kill more elk calves than wolves? Okay, in the
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: area they were where they were doing work, he said,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: because lions have always been killing elk calves out here,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: and we've always had a sense that for every hundred calves, right,
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: we're gonna lose thirty two lions. And that's just been
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: something that's just been woven into the cultural fabric. Right
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: when you're on the woods, you get this sense of
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: seven out of ten cows, right, is packing a calf right,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: And we kind of know that that's like the rate
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: and our harvest statistics are built around that, right. We
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: just get used to that. But then you have some
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: new additive thing which makes a noticeable change from what
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: you've seen in your lifetime and your father's lifetime. And
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: it's additive, and you focus on that, so you're not
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: focusing on the three out of ten, let's say the
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: three out of ten that lions are killing. You're kind
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: of fixated on the one out of ten or two
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: out of ten, the new things killing, because that's this
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: new thing you need to deal with, and so a
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: lot of blame falls to it. And because kyotes, like
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: in my own lifetime, have come onto the scene in
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: so many states. Like the first cow I ever laid
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: eyes on in my whole life, I didn't even know
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: there were any around at the time, and I caught
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: it in a fox trap. Mhm. Now it's like the
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: fox are gone in that area. It's just coyotes. It's
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: like an everyday thing. If you're like, if you hunt
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: around there, it's an everyday thing to see kyotes and
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: they weren't on around. So then you have like some mortality, right,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: and all these other causes of mortality have always been around,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: but no always like this new kid on the block thing,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: And it does get a lot of attention. Yeah, I
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: can buy that because I know in Wisconsin again and
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: that's my base, people got mapped me when I point
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: this up up and I first started working in this
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: industry in the newspapers back in the eighties. There was
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: no really weren't any wolves to speak of in Noulding, Wisconsin.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: There's a handful of them. It's just like mid eighties.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: And I've been covering the outdoors in Wisconsin all that time.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I've never I've done other things along the way, but
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: pretty much my beach Wisconsin. And I always remember, back
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: in the eighties, you go to a public hering, grow up,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: public meeting up about deer, and people north have always
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: complained about not enough deer up north. And back then
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: they always played the Chippawa, the Chippawa Indian tribes. They
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: always because they were on a treaty that allowed them
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: they could hunt off off their reservation territory. So they
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: you were blamed. They weren't registering their deer, they weren't
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: doing this, all sorts of accusations. Well then the wolf
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: builds up in the nineties and hunting back then, right,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: probably so, but a couple of times, and I'm not
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: I'm not doing it just to be a jerk, but
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: I'm pointing out to people that you know, thirty years ago,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: you guys always blamed the Chippewa for no deer. Well,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: now the wolves are up there. Now it's the wolves fault,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: you know, So that you're letting the Indians off the hook. Now,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: I guess they weren't just a big problem after all.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: But then I think my area where I hunting, Billion,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Wisconsin is a prime example. You go up there, and
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: the biggest problem with any animal basically is always their habitat.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: And where I hunt in Milling, Wisconsin is pretty much
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: mature timber. There's not much in there for deer to
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: really live off of. And so I go up there,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: and I have my common jolker around our camp is
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: that that habitat so pour around us. Even the wolves
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: don't hunt deer there because there's just nothing there the
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: whole deer. And I'm not I don't think, you know,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: has always been bad. Well, in my in my friends
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: camp back in the fifties when his dad was there
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: with his buddies and forties, was a pretty good, pretty
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: good place, and the forest hadn't been cut over that
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: long before that. And then by the sixties and this
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: guy's uh, he keeps camp journals like he makes. When
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: you got at his camp, you got right in his
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: journal before you leave, and he keeps track of every
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: deer killed that basically back into the sixties, and his
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: area pretty much has been bad, you know for a
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, pretty much, you know, since since I'd
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: say the seventies for sure. But um, the thing is
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: too though, I look, I balanced that out somewhat because
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: his friends are mainly bird hunters. They deer hunt, but
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: they're mainly bird hunters until guys like I came along
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: in the late nineties early two thousand's where you really
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: go out and to sit all day and hunt deer
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the way you know, you almost have to, didn't kill
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: a whole lot, dear, So I'm not sure how represented
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: that is. But then now I've talked to other guys
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: in the area, and that area we happen to hunt
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: has always been a tough spot because it's sloss pruce,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: which deer don't really make much use of. So's it's
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: I don't think I saw that in common. But then
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: there's our parts in the north you go into and
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: the aspens getting real mature. The gross aren't all that
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: you know, basically, as you know, grass rough gross and
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: deer if they're doing fine. Usually they have good, good
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: young forest regeneration going on. And if you don't have
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: that those young aspens coming up well, especially in the
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: area that yeah, and then then that's northern forest habitat.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: You have to have that young growth, you know. But
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: then you get down this area too, you can make
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: up for a lot of the shortcomings of that natural
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: habitat with crops and our stuff that can pull them through.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: But there's even research now in Wisconsins showing that they're
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: even getting winter loss in central Wisconsin, which is farm country,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: because the woods have been so over browsed and there's
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: really nothing left in there, and you have clean farming
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: practices with nothing left in the fields, have no place
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: to hide, no place to eat basically, And then that's
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: another you're seeing winter starvation in this eastern part of Wisconsin,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: so I mean central east, central Wisconsin, Central Wisconsin, and
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: even parts of west central Wisconsin's seen some winter loss now,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: which is never something that they're worried about, you know,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: twenty years ago, No, Doug, do you practice clean farm?
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: Are you part of the problem part of the solution.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I would say that I'm part of the solution for
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: two reasons. One because of our forestry practices and we've
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: got you know, various age classes of of woods. But
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: then our eggland is in CRP and though that's those
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: CRP fields are planted to um clover, alfelf orchard grass,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: and then some of the edges have additional clover and
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So that's great cover for not
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: just deer, but for everything because you can solve because
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: you guys have in this area the deer overpopulation problem,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: by some definitions, absolutely the lead. The definition in your mind,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: just to put words in your mouth, the definition in
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: your mind would be that you guys, maybe, um, it
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: may be like like disease transmission issues, there's enough deer
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: where you could have disease transmission issues without getting into
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: all that too much. What I was going to suggest,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: if you're serious about reducing the deer population, you can
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: just make your farm real shitty, but then you're gonna
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: lose a lot of other wildlife. Well yeah, fair enough,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Like you could do clean farming and and and a
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: lot and let everything get overgrown and then there wouldn't
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: be so many deer. You know, it's interesting when I
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: know a fair number of farmers around here and I
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: know those guys are you know, they're it's it's clean farming.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: It really isn't. Uh. Someone referred to it as a desert,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: not farmers. Other people that's the desert once they've been
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: out there. But I'm always amazed at the amount of
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: deer that I'll still see in farm fields that it's
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: corn stubble, and if they're stubble there, there's gonna be
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: some something that they'll eat, just like the cattle eat
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: the fodder from the ears and that sort of thing. Um,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: apparently you know, picking through the bean fields and stuff too,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: but it's a kind of at different times of the
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: year and then what's exposed, and um, you know, they'll
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: work awful hard at it, or you'll see them if
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: we take take that right up around the and and
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: look at those farm fields. Well, Joe, the guy who
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: farms it up there is the hell of a good farmer. Yet,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, there'll be times we'll see seventy five deer
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: up there, you know, working on those fields, and all
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: there are grass strips and then it's corn and beans.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: So I get that the the clean farm thing, but
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: the clean farming thing. But then I see there that
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to be the case, and I wonder
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: if it's just they've also attributed those practices to some
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: of the declines and waterfowl that we saw back in
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: the eighties and things that the people weren't leaving enough
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: that that that we had waterfowl populations that had grown
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: used to all the stubble leftovers, yea, and that the
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: clean farming practices was one of a handful of things
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: that caused a lot of duck species to collapse. I
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: wonder one of the things I noticed around here, and
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I have to I have to ask Joe about it.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: It's like he's my farmer reference all the time. They
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: do a lot of spring um grinding of the corn
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: fodder and then bailing it rather than in the fall.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm sure it's probably a matter of time and
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and those sort of things. But um, he's
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the kind of guy who would leave it because you know,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: it's good for the wildlife for the you know, through
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: the winter and then in the spring doing it. But um,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: and then it dries out, you know, great. And and
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: I know there's some rotation as to where they'll do
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: that and where they won't. You know, they won't take
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: the fodder off of each at that field every year,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: and you know every year because they want to put
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: some of that organic matter back in. But I also
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: think that up there now, and you know, as we
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: start talking about it and thinking about it, that there's
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of edge there. You know, there's there's brows,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: there's some other things there. So you know they're probably
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: good working through there and getting a little bit of everything,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, I'm with you now,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: pat Um. You're kind of like a dying breed in
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: that you are a like a like a regional one
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: of your jobs, like a regional outdoor columnist. We'll have
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: a new him. All they all died, Yeah, they died
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: in the well. You know. The biggest biggest change is
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: um the way that newspapers went downhill. And when I
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: started off, there was about three or four guys in
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Wisconsin were full time outdoor writers. Two are at the
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Milwaukee Journal, always at the Milwaukee Sentinel. There's one in
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Green Bay. There's one I wa saw. That's when the
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: cross is probably seven of them, I think about it.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I had one growing up, the Mosquito Chronicle had I
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: can't remember his name, Bob, I think I had like
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: a dude. Now it seems like other worldly that there
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: would be like the dude whose job it was a
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: right about hunting and fishing opportunities, local wildlife politics, and
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: that was his beat at a newspaper. And this guy
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: had like a desk at a newspaper. Yeah, that was
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: to cover like, hey, the perch are in it's just amazing, man,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: like big yellow bellies. Last week's meeting at the d
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: n RC office. Well, my my, um, I still get
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: grumpy about when when I see a door writer at
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: a newspaper not taking that beat seriously and just writing
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: about fishing roundups and I'm doing the I think it's
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: not doing the hard report, not doing the hard deper
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: because you know, yeah, but but but I my understanding
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: is is it year well, first sketch out, like how
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: how long have you been um doing? Like how long
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: have you been a What's am I using the right
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: word when I say, like a regional outdoor columns? Like
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: what do you call it? What do you guys call it?
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: I'm I just call myself note door writer. And you're
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: like a syndicated outdoor writer in Wisconsin and you focus Yeah,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: The focus of my reporting and column writing is Wisconsin,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: and I've done I've basically my my beat a statewide
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: beca as much as I can. I'm centrally located right
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: in the middle of Wisconsin, so I kind of keep
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: an eye on you try to cover the whole. I try.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: I try to cover statewide issues and but but I
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: still find there's always those little local guys that do
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: something that's will be a fast daing that I'll do
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: stories and I'll I'll drive down a mass and sometimes
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: for a story whatever it might be. But I am
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: That's why I want to put my job now, because
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: you can't make a living as a freelance guy in newspapers.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: You can make it, you could, but now you can't.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever could because newspapers have
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: never paid freelancers that much. And but you know, as
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: newspapers declined and they started losing revenues, advertising revenues, they
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: just started killing staff like craziest. So I gotta imagine
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: that you had the first guy to go, oh, you
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: would be you'd be one of the very first. Like
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: I know, Um, right now we're down to one full
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: time outdoor writer paid by a newspaper in Wisconsin. That's
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: um Paul Smith at the Milwaukee Journal. Is he barely
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: hanging on? I have no idea. I don't know what. Yeah, yeah, Paul.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Paul's a very good outdoor writer. But you know the
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: problem is that he doesn't do like chip shop Penny
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: any He just pretty good stuff. I respect his work
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: and where I where I um where I've made my niche.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: You know, an outdoor writing I think is covering issues
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: as a columnist where I I like to always think
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: that I give. I give an opinion, but I like
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: to think it's an informed opinion. It's not just off
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: the cuff before I had give an opinion. I've done
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: a lot, done a lot of interviews, done a lot
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: of reading, and I always hate I'm always sensed about
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: the word research because I think I've worked with guys
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: who do scientific research. I know then the research word
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: is a real important word to them. They don't like,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: you know, to use it just for basically saying he
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: went on Google and typed in, you know, a Google search.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: And so I'm kind of careful how I use that
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: word research. But that's but by learning how do reporting work?
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: The way I did you know. Back in the eighties,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: I started discovering that most outdoor writers working in a
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: national scene on the magazine front and elsewhere, most of
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: those guys don't like doing interviews. We call people up
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: or sit through a long day of suminars and take
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: notes to record interviews, transcribe interviews all the world nitty
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: gritty work. What those guys do a lot of is
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: they'll do a deal or like some company will host, right,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: They'll be like, oh, they'll round up like ten outdoor
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: writers and they'll be like, we're going to Texas to asked, uh,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: these new bullets here on on wild Pigs right right,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: And then everyone goes down there and they all shoot
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: a wild pig of these new bullets, and they all
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: go to their respective publications and they all write an article.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: And you can tell because in there they'll be like
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I was with, I was hunting with. You know, Bob's
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: the head of marketing and development at Bob's Bullets. And
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: that is a lot of outdoor writing. Well not I
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: don't know if that's so much anymore. I mean, like
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: really it really was back in nineties. Well, you know,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: there are there are the gun writers and Ammo type
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: guys that still do that a lot. But I would
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: I'd never fit into that group. I mean, I know
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: it is. I think of it as like gun writers. Yeah,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: gun writers do. I still there's probably still enough work
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: there where they get those kind of those kind of
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: things that come down. Plus they know what they're doing,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: you know. I like to hunt. I don't really. I've
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: got a lot of different dear rifles. I kind of
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: like deer rifles, but I don't really know the specs
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: on them as far as you know which one you're blissed.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: The ballistic coy fish and stuff, I don't. I don't
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: know any anything. Yeah, and that kind of stuff. I
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: like the look of a good wallet stock rifle, and
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: I like the old lever action three or weight um
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: savage those kind of things. I find that interesting. But
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: to go on these um, I think most of his
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: companies figure out pretty quickly what your strengths and weaknesses are,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: and they probably have me on one of those kind
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: of outings and go I don't ever bring that guy back.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: He's just knocking. He doesn't get this stuff. Yeah, he
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: was doing research the whole time because this wasn't it
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: wasn't it wasn't up my alley and the magazine I
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: used to add that Deer and deeringing magazine. This is back.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: And I got hired there in ninety one, left there
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: in two thousand one. So you're the editor in chief
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: there for two eleven years. But backup for example, I
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: still don't understand. So we like, what was your first
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: outdoor writing job. Newspaper? Yeah, and I had a specific newspaper. Yeah,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: but I will study journalism. Oh yeah, yeah, but you
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: came out of the Navy. Yeah, I was in the Navy. Nay,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: my dad told me. That's always one of the stories
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed talking about. But when I was nineteen years old,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: that said I was going to Navy, and those days
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I decided and I followed my father's footsteps. He was
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: a firefighter in the Navy. No, no, in the in
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: the Madison, Wisconsin but Dad encouraged me to go to
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: the old man hadn't been in the Navy. Now he was.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: He was in the Coast Guard and in the Army,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: but he was in the Coast Guard Reserve and he
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: knew enough about the military that knew if you want
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: to get firefighting training, you go in the coast Guard
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: the Navy because they when a ship's not fire you
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: better get that fire off you want to hurt so
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: so they really can't run outside. That's one of the
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: things I really liked the Navy was how every ship
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: was basically its one little city and had to have
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: all the all the services. So some of my dad
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: when I went in the Navy, he was telling me,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: he's looking at all the recruiting stuff. He says, instead
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: of doing this firefighting training, because I was gonna be
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: I was what was called done a whole maintenance technician.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: They taught you firefighting, they taught you damage control, welding,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: all these great skills. My dad looked at all this
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: stuff and he says, you should take this journalism training
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: because they have they trained you to be a journalists
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: who because they have people they have They have press
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: releases on ships and they have little ship newspapers, and
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: especially the bigger ships have regular publications. I don't know
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: if they do now, but it's probably on internet now
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: or wire based type stuff. But my but I was nineteen.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I knew everything. So I said, no, I'm gonna go
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: off and do this. You know, damage control. Yeah. But
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: then by the time I got the Navy, which is
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: five years, I realized Dad was right. My strength was
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: was writing and editing, and I was a lousy walder.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I understood damage control, but I realized, God, the skills
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: I have, I'm getting bored doing this stuff. You know,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: end up being a locksmith. In my final three years
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: in the Navy, got trained to a locksmith, and so
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: I was breaking in the says all time for in
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: these little wardrooms on Navy ships. And so you're like,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: so the ship has a locks move. Oh yeah, well
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: that's a little city, right, yeah, I mean it gets
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: locked out of the boat. Well, I was on a
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: I was on what's called destroyer tender. It's a big
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: repair ship. And so like our job, basically we pulled
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: into a port. Then all these destroyers and cruisers would
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: pull up alongside of us, and that'd go over there
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: and do all the locksmith work. You know, people locked
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: all their rooms locked out. I mean my biggest job
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: everyone as I spent Christmas Day in seventy eight on
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: a submarine all day because the duty officer lost the
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: key ring to the to the submarine. Every every key
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: that went around that sub So that's been all day
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: of replacing all these these keys. But to get back
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: to your story, so did you say so it was
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: like a war free period I had perfectly. It was
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: right after Vietnam and when I was getting out, it
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: didn't even have to do Grenada. No, I mess missed that.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: But the closest I came to anything interesting was we evacuated.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: We helped evacuate a bunch of people in Lebanon. You know,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: it's like my my five years and was from eighty
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: and when I was getting out was during I ran
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: the Ran hostage crisis, and so yeah, a little bit
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: of you know, worry about where that would lead, but
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: eventually it all calmed down. But I never had to
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: do anything interesting. And so I'm I'm always. I'm always
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: probably the fact I served the Navy because I really
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed it. I don't want to make a care
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: out of I enjoyed it. And their friend as their
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: friend Rurk says, you you earned your seat at the table. Yeah,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: the table being America. Yeah, and I believe that kind
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: of stuff. I like, I believe in public service, all
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: those kind of things. I encouraged my daughter, oldest daughter.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: When she um was heading off to college. She asked
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: me about navy, and I was told her I said,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to make a care out of this,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: but I liked it. I liked that sense of community,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: that sense of service. She's career, she's been ten years
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: now and she is a she's now a doctor in
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: the Navy, a nurse midwife, basically the equivalent of a doctor.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: And so I'm real proud of that. And but you know,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: by the time I got the Navy, though, I had
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: so many people tell me they'd read my letters. Because
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: this is I actually bought typewriter in the Navy, a
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: manual typewriter, which I wish I still would have kept,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: and I typed on my letters because I don't know type,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: and I I cranked out letters to everyone, anyone that
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: would write to me, I'd write them back. And I
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: bought my God. Yeah, and when you started having people
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: tell you that when I read your letters, I feel
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: like I'm right there. And I thought, well, that means something.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Well I got when I got out there, I i stuff.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Following my dad's footsteps, I went off to college and
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: got my degree in journalism, and then I but timized Um.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: In my junior year, I started working for the local
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: newspaper in ash Goosh, Wisconsin as a local sports writer,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: which was kind of a yeah because it was anyone
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: who knew me, and it was a joke that I
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: was actually covering high school sports because I un't read
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: any Tristan and most of the sports up for the
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Packers and Green Bay Packers I liked. Oh yeah. I
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: covered him for two or three years and it was
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: a miserable because it was like being a fan. I
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: don't like being a you know, working on a beat
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: for you're covering in the team, team that you can't
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: cheer for, because what do you guys like me? Not
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: that I mean like specific like everybody likes their team,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: but why is it that you guys that people Wisconsin
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: are so fired u about the Packers. This is win
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: the super Bowl or something well they wanted, they wanted
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: four times, Steve. Did they win recently? No, not, not
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: since two thousand ten. But there always competitive and in
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: the last twenty years we've been spoiled. We've had incredible
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: quarterback in the last twenty years. But to answer your question,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Wisconsin dugs yawning, but you don't want to get into
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: the Packers because you don't give a not until it
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: gets cold and shitty outside and then you know, December,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: I start watching. Well, no, because you guys are telling
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: me that that's the perfect day when the Packers are playing,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: that's the day you can hunt everybody else, Like if
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: you can. You think we were going to talk about
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: been kind of curious about hunting someone else's property, Do
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: it while the Packers are playing, because you damn you're
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: not gonna run into the guy, and then you can
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: go and shoot some deer off his land. Uh, you
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: got a question earlier looked like when you're talking about
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: the Navy. I'm gonna move on from all this, and
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: I don't want you to. We're in Doug's, Doug's farmhouse.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: I don't want to board Doug in his own damn farmhouse.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Get away from this. I've known Pat for I don't
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: know a while, and uh, I don't know ten or
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: twelve years or something like that, and uh, we've had
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: we've talked about all kinds of things, but I guess
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: I've never really heard the whole navy story before. And
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: what I'm really curious about with you know, he was
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: a locksmith in the name. I didn't know he was
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: a locksmith in the Navy. I do about you know, guy,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: your whole life, but I wondered about your father. You here,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: you're telling your father that I'm interested in becoming a
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: firefighter and all that, but yet your father's going so
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: he discouraged you from He encouraged me to um go
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: into firefighting. But I should have finished that story. Yeah,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: that's a good point, Doug. What happened when when um,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: when I came, that became that juncture I had to choose.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Dad's advice was to go into the journalism school the
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Navy offered, because he said to me, and he was right,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: he said, every the Navy teaches everyone firefighting skills because
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: everyone in a fire has to has to respond. And
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Dad had been through the Coast Guards training, and he
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: been through prior. He probably been to Navy, actual Navy
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: firefighting schools, because the Coast Guard will will help out
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: with the Navy stuff and they'll use the Navy facilities.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: So Dad probably knew all that stuff. But again, you know,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: because I was nineteen and thought I thought I was
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: smart and that you know, I know what I want
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: to do. I just blew off Dad's advice and came
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: to realize, you know, like a couple of years a quote,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: you know, the pen is mightier than the sword, The
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: pen is mightier than the fire. Hard So I've never
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: met I want to move on, Go ahead, let me please.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: So I've never met Pat's dad, but he's a a
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: famous character in Madison. He was the fire chief and
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: and really interesting guy. So he's like a high level
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: fire man. He's the fire chief during the six Oh.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I I thought he just hated fire, just wanted fire
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: to be put out. And I thought, you know, in
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: the stories that I've heard about him, he's a bit
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: of a character, you know, and I just kind of
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: thought that, um, maybe he was just saying sorry, son.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Now Dad actually told me, and not not making this up.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Dad actually told me that of his four sons that
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: he thought I was the one that was most most
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: personality wise, most cut out to be a firefighter. And
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: I never quite knew it was true. What is the
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: person that Okay, I don't want to talk about it. Well,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: just things like not not being afraid to go up
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: the ladder and not being afraid to hang on to
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: ship and just you know, yeah, stick your nose in there. Yeah,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: rescuing maidens and distress and whatnot. He thought that, he
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: thought you were that guy. So then you Okay, then
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: you became so that and I want to skip writing
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: about sports because that's not that's not interesting. So you
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: wrote about athletics, okay, now then you then then you
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: became a professional outdoor writer. Win. Um, where where I
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: could construed out full time wasn'tuntil I got the Deer
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: and Deer Running magazine. And but but the Nash Cash paper,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: well I did because this is a small, you know,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: like a midsize city in Wisconsin. People and the newspaper
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: couldn't staff a full time outdoor writer. But they let
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: me basically be a halftime outdoor writer. And I also
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: ran the week. I was other of the week on newspapers.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I also covered the education beat for a while, you
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: know that school board, that kind of stuff. But the
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: reason I I should just say that real quickly, the
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: reason when when in the sports let's get first, was
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: because I knew that was the quickest route to the
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: outdoor page, because yeah, the sports sections almost always legitimizes
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: it my eyes, because it was it was that. That
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: was my my ulterior motive was to get into the
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Outdoor page and eventually got control of the Outdoor page.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: And I really worked that beat now because my my
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: dream was to use that platform there to get the
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Malwaukee Journal's eye and go to and become the Malaukee
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Journals at door writer. Because you grew up hunting, fishing, Yeah, Yohni,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: what point did you become so bored and making notes
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: that's what you're doing? Ok Um, So at that point then,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: because you we're gonna syndicate, can you explain that? Yeah,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: my my syndication. They didn't start to actually started working
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: at Deer and Deer running magazine, and Deer and Deer
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: Hunting was look E. When I first went there, it
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: was it was a neat magazine because it was started
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: by local guys up in Appleton, Wisconsin. Is two guys.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: It was yeah, oh yeah, that was started in Appleton,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Wisconsin and seventies suventy seven by two guys and they
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: started off their magazine. It was called they had to
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: some traveling road show. Basically they go to high schools
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: and civic groups and do presentations of white tail deer
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: and they're doing all sorts of crazy stuff that they
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: put speakers up in trees and blow noise to see
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: how dealer respond to it. And so they're like they're
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: like doing their own like shoes stringing their own deer
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: research exactly. That that's plus they're the first guys to
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: really start actually go on and digging out scientific research
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and putting it to practical use for hunters. And that
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: was the tagline the magazinish Yeah yeah, you're there ten
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: years yeah, loving years. Yeah. And I really enjoyed it,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: and it gave me opportunities that I never had gotten
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: anywhere else because it gave me a one of the
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: things I really got out that it was a big
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: benefit that made me realize how much I liked, as
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: boring as it can be, sitting at these different um
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: scientific seminars and waiting for that that little nugget to
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: come out of some college kids research on deer that
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: they could use in the magazines because they're like, part
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: of your job was just to cover all research pertaining
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: the white tail deer. Yeah yeah, and especially this stuff.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: The magazine's tag I was and it probably still is
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: practical and comprehensive information for white tail deer hunters, and
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: that was right up my alley. I like that. I see,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: like I've always found that I love deer hunting, and
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: that's the number one thing he's welk in my hollis
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: you know, this guy's a deer hunter. That's all all
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: he does. But I realized early on that as much
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: as I love deer hunting, I'm not a predator to waste.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I met guys and that up magazine that they are predators.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: They know how to kill deer. They they're good. And
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: I that's one thing I really love about what I
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: do is I get to meet guys with their hunters
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: and fishermen that if you think you're a good hunter
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: and fisherman, you're jealous. And these guys you see on
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: TV and wherever it might be, I hope there's sometimes
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: I really respect the fact that these guys really are
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: in many cases better than you are at deer hunting
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: and better than you are at bass fishing or walleye fishing.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: And Yeah, but that pisses people because people like always
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: be reading magazines and people are goof on. People be like, well,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: goof on, do like me who like like do TV
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: about hunting like, oh, he's the moment. Yeah, but not
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: many of people get to go out as much as
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: we go out. Like if you're in an occupation where
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: you're hunting, where you're spending a hundred and fifty plus
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: days a year actively out in the woods, hunting and fishing,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: you're probably gonna see some things and learn some things.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, just you could be the biggest knucklehead in
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: the world, but something's gonna rob off on you, and
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: that amount expos of exposure, you take that out like
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: you attend your career doing that. At the end of that,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: you have seen a ton of ship happened in the woods,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: and a lot of these guys that got good at
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: like in my in my my generation, those guys like, um,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: oh he's older than me a little bit, but like
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Miles Color, it was just I'm not sure how he's
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: doing these days, but the guy could really go out
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: and find he go out in a new area, look
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: it over, figure out pretty quickly how to hunt during
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: that area. Greg Miller back in the sixties and seventies,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: but was killing really nice deer noldn Wisconsin, and like
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: lot of guys didn't know big Bucks existed up there
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: and those guys like that, and they always find fascinating
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: about of these guys I've met over the year as
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: a hunted with They can't tell you a red pine
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: from a white pine from a cedar, but they know
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: how to kill deer. They know how to line things
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: up to figure out what's going on. I've heard people
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: others say that the guys say that, like the talking
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: about some like white tail expert and being like in
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: saying that's some bitch didn't know the kind of tree
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: his trees day was in mhm, but he he didn't
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: need woodsmanship. He knew how to hunt white tails. Yeah.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: And the point I make because you have all wolves
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: don't they can't tell trees of heart either, but they
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: probably figure out habitat. And you don't know how they
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: conceptualized trees. Well, they probably don't do the Linanean binomial nomenclature,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: but they might conceptualize trees. And someone I want to
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: dot one bit. They figure out real quickly when they
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: walk into go through a cruise to a section of woods,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: which which ones will bear fruit, which ones productive? And yeah,
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: they it's like you've mentioned the past, hunters look at
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: treat bottoms a whole lot differently than somebody else going
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: buy in the car. You know, it's just it becomes
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: part of your you know, they won't live long if
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: they can't walk into part of a wood row quickly
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: figure out how this thing works. Happened. I couldn't go
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: over at Colvert without slowing down or backing up. Yeah,
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: I had to expect every bit of water every time.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: And that's that's where I I love meeting those kind
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: of people. And I learned real quickly to pay them
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: respect for that that. You know, I might know more
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: about some guys research project and how it turned out,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: and I might be able to give him law facts.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: They'll they'll blow off, you know, as far as you know,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: like we talked about earlier about coyotes and kind of
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: an interesting subject because all this country that they're having
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: different impacts on deering, different different levels. You know, there's
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: there's areas in northeastern Minnesota, like talking before about um
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: the idea that they kind of accept a certain ob
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: predation somewhrea because I used to it. Well, you know,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: you go to know the Minnesota and you look at
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: the research going back into the six these you know,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: fond survival through that first year, it was like in
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: the range often that's regularly because it's our harsh environment,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: winter would kill him off. They come through the summer, okay,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: never make it, never make it out of winter, and
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: survival you know, for that first year was not uncommon.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: So what's it around here, Doug? We uh something like
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: one point one fawns per do survive because we have
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: so many twins, you know, and it's you know, I mean,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: you'll lose a few very good recruitment because there's parts
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: of um South Caroline right now where they had like
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: point for you know for fawn recruitment one point for
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: no no point for like zero point four. What's the
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: reason for that? Because right because because right now there's
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: areas of the South in South Carolina the other Southeastern
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: states then are known counties. Really until recently the deer
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: they having figure it out. Those things are going well.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: We have When we kicked off as a little teaser,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: I said, are they really killing all the deer? You said, no,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: I'm some guy in South Carolina's his hair. That's kind
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: of why I circle back, because you want to get it,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: but I want to get into it. Two but I
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: need to clear something up just for my own understanding,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: because I anestly don't know this yet. I do want
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: to talk. I want to talk about a lot of that,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: but I just also understand this. I'm just unders I'm
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: still tripped up and and maybe no one else in
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: the world is on on the demise of the outdoor columnists.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: And as a way, I wanted to understand that. I
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: think it might be helpful. I understand the survival of
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: an outdoor columnist. So when you start doing that. So
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: so you went to Deer and Deer Hunting and became
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: the editor in chief and as a national publication, became
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: a national publication. But how did it wind up being
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: that you write a article about Wisconsin and it appears
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: in a bunch of different newspapers in Wisconsin. Um, the
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: way I did it. When I went I went to
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: work for Deer and Deer Inn, a magazine. I was
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: lucky because back then I still was independently owned, and
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: the owners I said to him, you know, I explained
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: to them that I really like newspaper work. I like
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: newspaper columns. I like writing a weekly column. It's something
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: I really took a lot of pride in and I
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: asked him, would you mind if I kept writing it.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: I won't do it at work. I'll do it at
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: my own time, on the weekends and at night. But
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: it is this is important to me? Is this something
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: that I like doing? And they agreed, and then I um,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: when the company I bought out the magazine about that
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: deer and Deer on me a year and a half
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: and get bought out. Well, the company that brought us
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: up wanted me to drop the column. Did the guys
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: that sold it make a lot of money when I
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: sold it? Yeah? I think they did and they count
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: pretty good. So but um so like along the way though,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: I started what I did at first as I had
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: a woman um who was trying to launch her own
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: syndication service. You know, she has based in masks. And
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: then she asked me if she could pick up my
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: outdoor commas put over her package. So she she pitched
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: it to a couple of different newspapers like the Wisconsin
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: State Journal and back in those days, We're Seen Were
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Seen newspaper picked it up. Ashcosh picked it up, and
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Waka Shaw and our Tunnel by Milwaukee picked it up.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: And then eventually I had to know Claire, and then
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: they dropped it. It's not all sugar and spice either.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: You know, about two or three of them dropped me.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: But then over time, No, my nut game was right now,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: I'm at seventeen newspapers around Wisconsin. I carried my column
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: right now, right now, you should I know there were
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: seventeen newspapers in Wisconsin. Now when Doc so, when I
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: when Doug, I can't remember after before I met you,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Doug was talking about your work in Wisconsin and how
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: people in Wisconsin are so serious about deer and deer hunting.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Do you know the statistic I can't remember what it is,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: but that like Texas has four times as many deer. God,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: I wish I knew how this went. Texas has four
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: times as many deer, twice as many people, but half
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: as many hunters or something like that. I'm not sure
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: how they're I don't know their numbers in Texas. It
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: was just about how do in Wisconsin hunt? Yeah, if
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: you look, I think Wisconsin's population is about seven million,
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: six six seven millions in places. But it's it's um.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: They give you something to do with what I done
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: A really neat piece of research, you know from about ten,
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: you know, about twenty years ago. He's not a friend
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: of mine. Um Tom Herberline. He made a comment in
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: his he was a sociologist and he studied hunting and
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: hunting motivations, these kind of things. And you always would
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: say of Wisconsin. He said, in Wisconsin, you either are
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: a deer hunter or you sleep with a deer hunter.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: And he wasn't and he was an exaggerame he was said,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: he was multitask, you know, and but you have you
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: have you look at an average Wisconsin household, it's unusual
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: not to have a family or some deer hunter somewhere
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: in that family, you know, immediate family. And what Doug
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: was talking about when he was telling me that is
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: he was saying that, um, not that you get like,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you get actual death threats, but
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: I think like as a joke, he was saying, Pat
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Durkin gets like, you know, people mad enough for you,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: they wouldn't be surprised that they would give you a
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: death threat over white tailed politics. White tail politics is
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: vicious and it's it's it's not it's not always say
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: a deer make people stupid. It makes people stupid and
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: means sometimes and especially um, if you piss off a
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: group of people real fast, it's it's deer hunters that
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: they they can be very What would be a thing
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: that you found would piss off deer hunters? Um, Basically,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: you write a column about like like, obviously wolves is
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: gonna piss piss him off. And if dosease pisses deer
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: hunters off, not this, he's somewhat not not as much
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: as like baiting. Baiting relates device of divisive issues. Yeah,
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: and people like frame for me an article. Let's say
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: you said I'm gonna go piss off Wisconsin's deer hunters.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: I will write an article about this subject and frame
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: it this way. Well, it will be like the most
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: divisive thing you could say. I'll say, I'll try to
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: address that question. I will say that I've never written
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: a column, and I mean it's from the bottom of
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: my heart. I've never written a column with the intent
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: of pissing someone off. That's just not how I work.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: I but but will write a You have to have
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: done it in anticipation, definitely. You know, if you bring
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: this topic up, whether it's some polite society or not,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: people some people are gonna get mad and right and
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: write a rotten letter to you and bias. Figure again,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: this is I don't leber. One of my core beliefs
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: is that I look at my writing from the newspaper
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: as a as something I do as kind of a
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: public service. I get paid for it, but I've really
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: believe and putting information out there. And if they don't
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: want to believe the information, that's up to them. I
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: can't change their mind, because you know, people have their
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Once they have an attitude towards something, you're gonna change
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: their mind. But I think it's important to find the information.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: And I hate to use word vet because you know,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: on what really how do you go about vetting? Besides
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: talked a lot of people and finally get to a
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: point where you're saying this, this makes sense, this is factual,
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: and put it out there. And yeah, but that's an
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: interesting point to bring up right now, because we're sort
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: of engaged in this big cultural debate about like what
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: you know, this is who? I mean, I don't want
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: to say it f A K E News. Okay, So
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: we're like really caught up in this well what is right?
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Like can anything be factual or yeah, listen, I think
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: on some things there is On some things you can
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: you can achieve a scholarly consensus. Okay, on some things
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: a scholarly consensus or an academic consensus could be evasive.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: But there's a way to present a contentious argument in
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: a way that is transparent about what is known, Like
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: explain what is the where does the scholarly consensus end?
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: What direction do you feel based on like a reasonable
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: amount of work things might be going when you get
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: beyond the known facts and not known facts right and
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: be open about the things that might prove you to
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: be wrong. I'm not ready to give up on this
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: idea culturally that there's a way to present information and
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: it's like, because we don't know, let's just have it
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: be as deceptive in as wrong as possible because we
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: don't know. I I really firmly believe and I still
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: think most people think this way, that they still want facts.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's a lot of people out there
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: that when I joke around about science not being an
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: alternate facts and that's that's you know, that's b s.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: There's really smart people out there that you can dig
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: up their stuff and you can look back in you know,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: thirty or forty years of research and see it. This
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: stuff keeps lining up and lining up and lining up.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: We got this, this is this is the way it is.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: You know what. You know, what would frustrate my old
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: man about issues of what we would call fact is
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: he was frustrated with anything that the that our understanding
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: would evolve. Okay, so if under if your understanding of
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: something evolves over time, he didn't see it as being
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: a natural process. He saw it as the minute a
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: position evolved change like our understanding was enhanced. He then thought, well,
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna disregard the entire system that he've made. This
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: so you can say, like, I mean, take it even
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: feels a matter of like human evolution. Okay, so you
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: have some idea about human evolution. You know, organisms change
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: over time. Corn used to be the size of your pinky.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Corn is not real big, Like an organism changes over
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: time based on certain pressures. But he would get into
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: some issue of like like human human evolution is almost
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: too controversial to demonstrate my point. Let's they were talking
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: about what kills dear fonds. Okay, so we have an
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: understanding that that uh, black bears kill deer funds. Then
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: someone will come up with a thing that says, well,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: you know, we never looked at bobcats, and I were
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: looking at bobcats. Realize the bobcats are significant killer deer fons.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: And he'd be like, but I was told that black
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: bears do it now, never mind knowing no ship. Well,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: you know, because like he hated the idea that you
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: would have to sort of stay tuned all the time
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: as new things came in. And then when new things
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: came in, it wasn't that we were dismissing the body
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: of knowledges. Were engaged in this activity that is not
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: perfect and changes over time, but just trying to maintain
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: an understanding of the world that we live in. Yeah,
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: this friend of mine, Hybridline, has a great saying about
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: research and the whole idea of trying to improve our knowledge,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: improve our understanding things. He makes this comment that he said,
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: all all research is either trivial or wrong. Either it
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: proves what we already know, which is trivial, or it
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: proves what will never believe you know. And and I
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: can think in deer hunting it's constant. I mean, but
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: you're talking this research earlier about oh yeah, the article
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: you would write through is the article that would piss
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: everybody off, right, And all you gotta do in many
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: cases with a certain crowd is go back and dig
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: up the final results of some recent research which everyone
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: was clamoring for when it was like this. There was
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: a great study that was done by the Wisconsin Digging
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: are from about two thousand through about two thousand thirteen
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: looked at fawn survival, looked at over winter survival, and
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: two different areas went up northwestern Wisconsin, went on north
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: eastern Wisconsin, just north of me. And what was really
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: interesting in the in the farm country of eastern Wisconsin
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: right above me, the number one killer of of the
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: fawns was, uh, we're being killed by winter starvation, you know.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: And no one thought they were starving at starvation. And
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: in those days, I mean in just recent times, you
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: just thought it wasn't happening. And you look at, um,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: what else is killing him? All road kills are but
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: getting up four or five percent of them sometimes and
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: and but then all these things were done. All it's
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: really good information. It was all released. People like me
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: wrote about it, people like and then I got people
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: right into me saying this, this is all bullshit. You know,
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: this is just the d n R spinning their fast
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: because the thing they didn't like was because in northwestern Wisconsin,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: where there's wolves, wolves were not found to be much
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: of a productor at all for falls. Yeah, they this
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: was a cover up. So so they have this research,
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: they didn't like the way it turned out, so they disregarded.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: They did the same thing with them they did us.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Did I really intense sociological research into public attitudes to
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: our wolves. All the people who don't like don't like wolves,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: which is a lot of them. We're convinced that when
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: they do this research, we're not find out that Wisconsin
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: I really don't like wolves, even the especially the ones.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: Um they knew the people down in still in Wisconsin
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: who don't deal with wolves will like them. Those are
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: as people like them the most right and New Jersey can't. Ladies,
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: and the person like the least likely that like you know,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: and that's that's very true. That I'll get to that though.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: But you know that the thing they found though is
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: even in wolf country, the majority of people still overall
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: supportive wolves, but define defined like wolves. Well that's that's
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: that's a good question. That's a good good point, you know.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: And it basically it's the fact that I don't dislike
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: I don't dislike wolves. I love them. I think, I
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: think I like Oh, I like all wildlife, including and
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: I have a special place in my heart for the wolf.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: Does it mean you like him or like? What does
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: that mean? Well, if I like them, there and I
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: like them to be managed by the state, and I
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: have and I believe, based on consteadable bit of research
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: that we have a sustainable population in the northern Great
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: Lakes that can be managed as a renewable resource. Does
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: that put me in liking or not liking? Put you
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: in the liking like? Like, I've been a liking camp too,
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: because I actually drew a wolf tag in two thousand
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: and twelve and they first issued him, and I found
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: out real quickly I don't know the wolf funding to
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: be very effective at it, but I still be kind
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: as a liker. Oh yeah, definitely. But but I should
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: say that I think I think the way they they
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: worded it in this in this research was basically one
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: of the one of the things was do you want
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: more walls right now? As the wolf wolf numbers we
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: have right now? Is that adequate? Is that inadequate? Is
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: that too many? Too few? And most people, like I
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: think it's like in a six range, things are okay
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: the way they are. They didn't have a problem with
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: with the wolf numbers, whereas a lot of the hunters
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: don't want that many wolves. You know, the hunters would say,
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: you know, the d n R says there's seven d
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: wall as well, there's more like two thousand. So I
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: always asked him, well, where do you get your number?
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: I can tell you how the how the DINR got
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: there in number. I can try the survey, showy that
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: that that field work that was done to get that number.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: So where do you get this two thousand number? You know?
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: But but hold on a minute. I know we're getting
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: distracted a lot. But they had a we had a
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: guest um right on this year podcast, Frank mcmahnon, right,
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: who runs the U s GS Grizzly Bear program in
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: the Greater Yellstone ecosystem. You ask him how many are there?
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: He'll give you a number and you'll say, but probably more, yeah, yeah,
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: or there's sixty two, but probably more, And like, why
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: did you tell me six two, because that's the model
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: we use, but we know that that model has changed.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: We have an updated the model. There's almost certainly more.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: But I said, but if I put a gun to
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: your head and said how many are there, what would
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: you say? Sixty two? But probably more to a to
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: a wide margin more. Well, that's the thing. I'd say,
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: Well what's this wide margin? Because it depends on how
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: you're modeling them, And sometimes you might have a model
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: like like in this case. I hate to go way back,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: but here's what happened in this case. When they modeled
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: out how many they had, it was based on it
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: was based on the home range of females. Okay, knowing
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: that females had some fidelity to their home range and
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: we're generally intolerant of other breeding age females near them.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: And that model was drawn up at a time before
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: that model was drawn up at a time when they
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: hadn't really dispersed across suitable habitat. So what they found
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: over time is that they're more comfortable living closer together.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: They don't quite know how much, though, So when they
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: model it out, they come up with a number. But
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: all the experts like, but they're much more comfortable living
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: closer together. Now we haven't adjusted the model, so I
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: know there are more, but the ants we have to
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: have because this is the model that we put forth
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: tells us this, even though we all know it's probably wrong.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: So I think that it is like you can go
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: out and do like if you go out and just
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: do account, Okay, you can go out. Let let's see
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: you go out and do a survey where you're flying
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: trans sex out of a helicopter. Count wolves and you
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: can be I can damn sure tell you that there
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: are seven hundred, probably a lot that we missed. I
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: can damn sure tell you their seven hundred. Now you're
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: gonna have two things. The non likers of wolves are
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: gonna pay a lot of attention to the probably more
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: the likers in the case in this way you're sketching on.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: The lakers are gonna pay a lot of attention to
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: that minimal known number, and that's very important to them
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: because they want to present it as not as numerous,
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: because their goal is to keep them listed. Yeah, and
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: the other people's goal, their tendency is the de list.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: So they're gonna like that bigger number you find that
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: all the time in this kind of Yeah. And the
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: thing that where I get sick of that this whole
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: discussion is that no one really knows for certain You can't,
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: you can't. Like The point I think we should always
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: make is that you look at our country. We can't
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: even agree how to count people in this country. We
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: have real, honest to God important fights over a census
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: for people. So if you can't count noses on humans,
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: we know, we know our addresses, they pretty much can
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: go into our homes and figure out what we got.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: Even then you're still arguing about But um, that's the
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: point that it's in the real famous wolf bitlogists make.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: Whether it's val guys. He's not specifically a wolf biologist,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: but yeah, he knows his stuff. Though there's a guy
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: I forget his name is over in Italy. He's a
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: Europe's most famous wolf researcher. The point this Italian guy makes,
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: and I think the vale point he says, instead of
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: worrying about individual numbers of wolves, be looking at something
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: that matters. And what matters is how what kind of
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: damage they're doing. Let's let's quantify what's what's the damage.
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: We can quantify that that's much easier to get a
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: handle on than how many wolves are out there now
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: if they're not they're out there and they're not killing livestock,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: they're not killing uncle its or not, they're not doing this.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: Who cures me numbers are out there? Do you really
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: need to need to have that number that really Manselow's
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: wolves or do anything? And no, you don't. You know
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: the speech price I think Americans and this is one
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: thing that rest of the wildlife ballance around the world
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: really marvelous. The way we hang up on numbers where
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: there's deer numbers that seems like it's deer and wolves
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: especially that people really worry about, you know what, what's
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: our what's our number? And that in Wisconsins we fight
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: about numbers all the time and we don't know what
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: we're talking about. I mean, it's just And then then
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: you get in the arguments wall as a deer for
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: square mile of habitat and who judges the habitat quality?
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: And you end up these crazy you know where people
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: get mad type of discussions because there's nothing anyone can
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: all agree on. It's like trying to define trophy hunting.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: You know, they're asking people you're like trophy hunting. Well,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: you don't even define what that means. But what Doug
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: was giving me a number the r day for here, Okay,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: fifty deer per square mile of suitable habitat. Oh yeah,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: and that you can't even believe that. But but then
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: again and then then then that, then that moves around
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: to you know, if you do these aerial surveys they
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: do in the winter, double check it. Typically what they
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: find is that those aerial surveys miss a lot too,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: even with snow covering the ground, and they still miss
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: a lot of deers. So it's all it's why something
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: to argue about. And there're thing that was interesting though
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: about getting back to wolves, and you talked about all
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: of the people in New Jersey love wolves not constant.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: The one thing that there's a really cool but munch
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: of research done about fifteen years ago about wolves and
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: people public attitudes trey wolves. And what they found is
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: that the pop larity of wolves really ok that's zenas
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: back in the mid nineteen hundreds when they really weren't
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: many wolves really people really around the world, And this
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: is they went back and they looked at all these
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: different sociological studies on at two story walls from all
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: of the world, you know, Europe, Russia, um, even down
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: into the Middle Eastern countries that you know in the
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: mountains areas, and they looked at the North American continent
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: and they fallen that. Yeah, that peaked around in the
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: night night at Yeah, and as soon I started calm
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: back every place that they looked was the more you
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: dealt with the wolves of less popular they became. Yeah,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: that's my feeling about the bald eagle. If bald eagles
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: were smart, they would stop reproducing so effectively. Because they
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: had they were extraordinarily popular, and they're still pretty popular,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: but they're getting so numerous. I feel that they're gonna
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: feel their popularity WANs not that they're a problem animal
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: to anyone, but you know, I mean, but I still
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: read people like, holy, an eagle, you know, but he'd
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: be like, well, the oh, there's they're they're everywhere. Now.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: It's like it's it's gonna come a time when people
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: are gonna see an eagle. They're gonna think about it
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: like they think when they see a robin. Yeah, because
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: they got so popular in their absence. Well, I mean,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: it's funny about the bald eagle is that people a
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: lot of people who romanticize them, they're bummed out, they're
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: disappointed when they see a bald eagle feeding out a carcass,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: even though they're a scavenger. Yeah, I mean it hurts
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: something that that's blue there. It's like finding out your
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: your mother was cheating on your dad or something, you know.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: You know, when when it was put out that the
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: idea that the bald egil be the national and animal,
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: Franklin criticized it. Ben Franklin, he's he's also mistakenly credited
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: with putting forth the turkey, which he did not do.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: But they said, okay, the eagle be the national animal
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: or national bird, and Ben Franklin thought, like, why would
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: you have like a carrion eater, lowly garbage eater, And
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: he says, kind of people think he argues, its facetious
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: that I've read what he wrote, and you know, they
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: had a different style, so you can't like read between
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: the lines quite as effectively as you could read between
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: the lines of a contemporary writer and thinker. But he
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: had said, like you might as well do it with
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: the damn turkey, because least he's vain, right, he's silly
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: in vain and he made the point in there I
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: think too about um, he's got he's got guts basically
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: because he'll attack that that red corded British guy if
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: he shows up in your garden. You know, that kind
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: of thing. And so, yeah, he didn't like that you
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: didn't want some garbage eating like well, even question that
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: eagles courage because because the little birds attack it and
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: can drive it away from you know. Yeah. Yeah, So
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: so there's always neat little things that you find about Franklin.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: He was a ladies man. Oh yeah, definitely was. I
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: don't want to get into that. But so you still
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: haven't answered my question. I'm sorry if you want if
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: you were going to write, okay, the article that was
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: going to be most insulting to Wisconsin deer hunters, like
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: like Doug here, Okay, what would the article be right
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: now in the current climate, I guess if I wanted to,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: and I actually kind of have written. I just don't want.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: You know, one thing I try to do people, Um no,
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: I some people will accuse me of obsessing on an issue. Yeah,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: and well, in this case, the thing I recommended a
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: few years ago, people arise bashed on me about, um,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: well you don't like what the din I was doing
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: on how they're managing c w ds. What would you
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: do if you were the king? And I said, well,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: the first thing I do is have just to earn
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: a bucket, have a double ear in a book. You
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: don't shoot a buck until you shoot at least two
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: antless deer. Okay, And that dog thinks that you shouldn't
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: be able to shoot any bucks. Well, I don't think
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: that that's not true. I don't think that doesn't really
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: think that. I was trying to make good point at
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: the County Advisory Committee meeting and because people just don't
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: like to be forced to do something, and I think
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: that's the biggest not go yeah, And that's really just
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: part of our character. We just don't like being told
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: what to do. We want until there are none left.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: So so that that that thing does that. Every time
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: I write about, um, those kind of things where we
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: should mandate something and make people, they get mad. And
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: even the people who are more reasonable get mad at that.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: They don't. They don't they don't want to be told
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: what to do. But why why was it that you
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: guys and This isn't This is the opposite. This is
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: not mandating, This is unmandating. This is instead of instead
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: of restricting people's choices, you were expanding people's choices, giving
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: them more opportunity for the exercising of free will. Do
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: you guys want to make it that you could wear
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: pink instead that passed? Do you guys really feel that
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: there were women who were like goad Man, I want
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: to hunt so bad, but I am not going into
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: the woods with that blaze orange. I think it's it's
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: it's a it's a color that, um, some women like
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: and some women don't like it. They always you're patronizing
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: them by saying that women want pink. But um, a
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: friend of mine who's in the garment hunt hunting garment industry,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: he said, when they start making mixing pink hot pink
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: into their um into the hunting clothing for Wisconsin, you
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: know it's basically a Wisconsin market. Now. I don't know
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: if any other state has that has passed blaze pink
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: as an acceptable color, but in Wisconsin it sells. Apparently
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: it was a special session of kind like that went
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: to law like faster than any other. Well, it was
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: because it was. It's an easy lot of pass It's
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: like like I was talking to the Honest's father today
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: about um a careent proposal. I think it's telling you
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: about to about the guy wanting to make the wild
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: turkey or state game bird. And Janice's father read a
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: waste as well. That's kind of law politicians life because
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: it doesn't doesn't cause me angst. It's easily passed, goes
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: through usually in one session, and it makes him feel
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: good and like. And Wisconsin is famous for these kind
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: of things, designating this thing and that thing as a state.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: You know, we have a state rock. I don't know
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: what it is, but we have one in Michigan. Okay,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: thank you, and and uh and then yeah, I think
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: we have a state muffin. You know. I think it's like, yeah,
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: you tell me that I was not I probably was.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: And and I remember getting back into the state if
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: I always remember um. Charles Curralt, he turned around Wisconsin
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: one time and on his little TV show that he
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: had a great program. He after around Wisconsin one time
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: he noticed that every little town b Wiscont, like where
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: I live, iola bull hunting Capital of the World. Fremont, Wisconsin,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: while capital of the world. Yeah, and you find Charles
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: kraw when are all these little cities that got their
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: Capital of the world type things, And he said, I
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: decide that Wisconsin is a capital of the capital of
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: the world. And I think Wisconsin, getting back even to
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: your Patrick question, there's something Wisconsins are just very schulvinistic
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: about their state. Yeah, but the Wisconsin Knights. And this
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: has coming from the guy that grew up in Michigan.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: So I grew up in Michigan. When we went down
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: to the beach, we're looking across at you guys. Uh,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: Wisconsin Knights on average are higher caliber human than Michigan
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: Nights standard. I'll tell you why. I think that's the case.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: I think that if you went around Michigan and and
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: and pulled people, but you know what, let's limit us. Okay,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: you go around Michigan pulling people that hold either a
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: hunting or a fishing license. So you limit your survey
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: to those people, and you ask those people what watershed
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: do you live in? I think Wisconsin Nights would beat
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: them three to one. There is a greater environmental in
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: landscape awareness in Wisconsin. Then Michigan buy a huge margin
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: and it haunts me. I can't figure out why it's true.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: I mean people Wisconsin. People Wisconsin can usually tell you,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: like if they were to take a leak on the ground,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: what river that piss would wind up and how it
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: would make its way, and like just little things like that,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: Or you'll be talking like a random collection of Wisconsin dudes.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: More of them would know how to go find a
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: morale than a random collection. I don't know what it is.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: I think it's the people that you talked to in Wisconsin.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: You think so, yeah, because they all know, because they
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: all know each and they all like the outdoors a lot. Yeah,
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I'd like to do it. I'd
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: like to do it. I'm gonna do that. The researchers
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: would call that what they call that street lamp science,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: where you look underneath the street lamp at night and
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: whenever was going on there, you can see it, so
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: you make your you can try these conclusions about what's
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: going on underneath that street lamp. Well, outside of the
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: street last much bigger world, and so what you're seeing
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: underneath that street lamp might not be anything close to
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: what's going on around it. And I don't know but
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: I like to think that you're right. I like to
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: think of Wisconsin nates have you know, I think they
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: have an enhanced landscape awareness because and I think that
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: the state pride, I think more like, yeah, I don't know,
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: I could be wrong, probably pisting off a lot of
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: guys my home state. I think they're like a more
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: robust um well state patriotism, so to speak. Like a
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: guy used to know in the hunting industry, he would
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: look at that though, and say, Wisconsin stuffers from a
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: whopping inferiority complex. So maybe you guys have a ship state,
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: But but you make up for it by thinking it's
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: a good state and knowing what creeks or what Maybe
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: you make up for it by knowing what creeks flow
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: into what creeks that flow into what rivers. You look
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: at like, totally incredulous, Doug, you're not buying it. You
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: damn sure know what creeks you're in. Well yeah, and
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: and uh, well you probably have a wider experience of
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: folks in Wisconsin than I do, because you know, I don't.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time the folks that I know.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: I know those kinds of things, no doubt Uh, but
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: you're saying the hunters and fishers so, and I have
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: no idea in Michigan. What people thinking. I've been all
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: around both places. Yeah, I don't want to dwell on.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: I want to get back to stuff to pass stuff
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: that I read a Pats. Where was I reading the
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: article that you wrote. That's the one thing I like
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: about knowing you is I stumble into your articles because
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: you're write for all kinds but not I don't stumble
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: into your columns. I stumble into your articles you write
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: in magazines and and I believe at least I've been
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: attributing it to you. Did you write a thing? Were
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: you recovering some research about what bucks do during rut?
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: Do they where? Do they actually? Like? Do they travel?
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: Because I keep saying he wrote this, I've written hold
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: on the editor of Deer and Deer Hunting Bucks during
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: your rut? Probably not no, no, recently recently Yeah, And
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: it was about uh GPS data on do bucks? It
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: was like it was like, do bucks really travel all
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: over Holy Hell during the I've written a couple on that. So,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: now that I've told people what I think you said,
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: what did you say in that? What? What were you
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: reporting on. Yeah. One thing that I liked about some
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: of this recent research they've been doing with with bucks
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: during the rut and where they go is not using GPS,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: and can I actually really get a pretty good hand
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: line where they are at numerous times a day. And
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: you know, in the old days, thirty years ago, they
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: do it with radio telemetry years ago, and they don't
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: get a reading every every couple of days or something
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: whenever they happened to go out and put their and
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: it was very difficult, but was what was interesting was that, um,
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: it's this research from the nineties that was done with
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: the old fashioned way. They found even back then that
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: these bucks are really individuals that when you say bucks
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: always do this during the rut, they go they really
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: go ranging all the place. While some do but most
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: of them don't, you know. But but there's still always
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: these exceptions that will some buck will go off and
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: who knows where. But yeah, like did it elk in
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: like the elk or a lion born in South Dakota
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: gets hit car in Connecticut? Yeah, yeah, do they all
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: go to Connecticut because it will be in South Dakota? Right,
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: And and what's um fastening about? A lot of research.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: What they start kind of ore figuring out what's going on.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: Is that, um, if a buck early in life scores
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: close to home, all the system works, so he stays
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: close to home for the most part as long as
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: he's alive. You know, you always stum if there's enough
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: dose in the area, and he hangs around and he's
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: a plugger, and he keeps moving around until he gets
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: one that the system works, so he keeps doing it. Well,
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: if a buck not our buckets, let's say, for whatever reason,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: gets chased out of that little area and can't can't
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: you know, he's just got the hormones going. He can't
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: stop himself. It starts wandering and counter at the doll
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: while that system works for him. So next year he's
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: doing that again. So that it's really individual. It's probably
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: little things that I think it's private. Ray somewhe to
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: just how our guns season works around here some years
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: if you're setting on the same theyvor stand every single
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: year and some guy comes in from a different way
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: one day and a buck runs by you, and you think, well,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: the systems working pretty good, you know, but you didn't
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: know that's just a flute that this guy chased a
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: buck passed you. And but you know, but the other
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: thing too that's cool of us in this research is
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: that I look at and think, well, you know, based
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: on those GPS data, what val guys was saying about
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: mule there thirty forty years ago holds up, you know,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: because he well, like Geist and John Ozolga who did
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: whitetailed research up in the up of Michigan, they followed
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: us in these really beautiful bucks. The biggest bucks were
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: what I think I think guys called them shirkers. They
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: would come out and they didn't want to get their
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: ass kicked. So if there was a buck working the doll,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: rather than engage and try to drive that buck off,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: you'd shrink back. Now, maybe what happened early in his
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: life was that he got in the middle, He got
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: between a buck and a doll, and the bull buck
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: gored him, beat the crop out of him. He thought,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: I don't want to go with that again, and so
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: he his system was to say, in a safer area,
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: looked for the one to drop into his lap, and
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: and and now her and live longer. And then but
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: then when that big gut buckets shot or just disappears,
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: from landscape. All of a sudden, you got man gave
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: him out again. He's back out there. He's now he's
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: doing a little bit different behavior. And what was really
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: cool about some of the stuff that was Alla ended
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: up mission that the shirkers sugar Yeah, he called up
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: no shirk you know the shirt that shirt short your
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: Duties s h I r K shirt. I don't use
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: that term, that term, honest, I don't know, but you
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: know the work. Yeah, but I think guys called him shirkers.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: And um Zoga had a very similar conclusion that there's
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: there's bucks that don't really engage much. And he was
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: he checked some of these bucks and his study pun
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: up in the US like a mile square pen. And
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: when I think he found and there was this buck
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: that was not engaging and not taking part. He he um,
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: they I think they must have they must have had
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: a way to trap them and check their blood. Because
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: he did a blood check on this buck. What turns
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: out this buck had a high level of progesterone, a
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: female the female hormone. Yeah. And then but when that
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: buck got his chance from the other, the bigger buck
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: that was dominating him, you know, that scaring him when
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: that buck disappear from you know, I think he died
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: and they just moved himlet of the pen or something.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: I think he probably died. Well. As soon as that
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: big buck that not stress inducer was was removed, his
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: progesterone levels dropped. And you think this is cool stuff
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: they're doing back in days before GPS, you know, believes
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: Johannest believes that. I think it's the Honest believes that
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: there are bucks who will go up and hide. This
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: is the same stuff that he's talking about. The guy
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: sort yeah, but I just don't. I've read a fair
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: bit of battle guys. Let's leave it to leave it
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: to Pat. Honest believes, based on a thing that he
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: believes originated with vlarious guys, that there are bucks who
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: will play the very long game, and they'll go up
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: and hide up in some hidi hell hole their whole
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: life until they're just giants. Then one day they'll think
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: to themselves, you know, I'm about as big as I'm
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: gonna get, and then they'll come down. Then they'll walk
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: down and get them all. I have a very difficult
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: time with that. I guess I said with you, because
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: am I saying it right? Well, no, I mean I
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: think you're you're making the exaggerated Steve version of the
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: of the shirker of the shirker that he just explained.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're just like in times of like when
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: like times are hard and it's like there might be
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: like like you're not feeling that well, there's like a
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: rough winner, you didn't have a great summer. You pull
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of fat, like they decide to instead of
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: go in and engage and just go crazy. They're like,
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: I'll shirk this year, maybe a couple of years the
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: system is working for me, and then re enter. That's
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: the thin thing is that I would never say that
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: wouldn't happen, because I just gave some examples where what
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: kind of happens and the thing that I'm geist will
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: talk about and deer farmer say the same thing that
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: the bucks that aren't being stressed take real big antlers
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: because they can put so much their energy into those,
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: into their growth. You know these animals that are stressed,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: they're nervous, they're always looking at their shoulder. Yeah, definitely,
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: definitely stressed stress is a big influence on on antler development.
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: So dudes that are shed hunting and needy snow are
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: making next year's shed is not as big. Well, you
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: can probably the argument. But you know, if you see
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: that makes people man because it comes down to your
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: telling someone he can't do something he wants to do.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: You're trying to get me a ready calm about that, now, huh?
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: What's just there's a thing because we had like a
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: pretty bad winter in some areas and people started bringing
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: up and shed hunting is more and more. It used
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: to be gone the woods hate sentences beginning. It used
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: to be when I was a boy. When I was
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: a boy, like you went on what you found a
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: dear and like I was dear handler. Right, it wasn't
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: like a thing that like was like it just wasn't
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: as much of a thing to find sheds, Like you
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: didn't have many people who really like self identified as
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: shed hunters who do special trips to go hunting sheds. Right. So,
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: now as it's becoming more and more popular and people
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: are more and more gung hoo to get after him
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: the second they dropped to the point where they watch
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: yarded up deer in deep snow calm, you know, march
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: whatever wherever deer in your area drop that they're watching
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: them yard it up in the minute they start dropping,
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: or that they're chasing them to get them to drop,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: like a deer will drop one and not the other
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: and then they chase after it to try to get
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: it to jostle free the other antlewers so they can
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: get a matching pair. So some people have pointed out
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: this might be something we need to get out ahead
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: of the same way we got out ahead of. You
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: can't hunt year round as much as you want, and
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: there's seasons for that. They put forward this idea that
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: we would regulate this morning that Pisces people you can't
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: find them more stressful time, probably for now that time
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: of year. So Yanni always says winter weekends, spring kills. Yeah. Well,
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: on that warden that we chatted with in November in Colorado,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: he was saying the number one uh, you know, impact
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 1: onto deer populations now he believes is well maybe it
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: was like even now with have a that but the
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: summer recreation that it's just you know, and it's just
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: like there's more people that haven't been in the woods,
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: you know, in the past years, and now there's just
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: hikers and bikers and you know, they've been looking they've
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: been doing a lot of work looking at methods of
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: conveyance and what it tends to do with dispersal away
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: from trails. And there's like some counterintuitive ship oh yeah
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: about what freaks them out and what doesn't freak him out. Yeah. Well,
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: actually go into a lot of these game farms, like
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: a deer farm, especially because deer are really a skittish
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: animal that doesn't do well in confinement. That's why they
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: have all those you'll see um like black drape type
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: material around defenses because if deer see something else outside
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: defense that makes them nervous that you know, they start
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: going nut. So they start running around circles very stress Yeah,
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: and they try to keep them relaxed as much as
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: they can and keep them, you know, isolated from all
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: that kind of all those stressors. And but you know,
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: like it's I always find it interesting that the elk
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: farmers will see some of the elk out in the
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: wild in northern Wisconsin and up in the clam Laker,
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: which isn't very good elk habitat, and there a lot
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: more spindle rack type type bowls that aren't anything real impressed.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: They aren't like you see out in Arizona or something,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: and then they'll show some elk they have thing. Well, yeah,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: but you're controlling the environment in that in that pat
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: and you got all they have their food right, their form,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: they have everything, all the environments controlled. They're not out
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: there running around chasing running away from wolves or ring
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: about wolves and and all. Anything that's staying constantly alert
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: that takes that takes its toll, you know, on their
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: on their energy and their their overall well being. So
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: I think most people can relate to that. Just when
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: you want to add, Doug, Well, when we're you're talking
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: about different books and you know, and and how they
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: acted on it, it just sounded to me like you're
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: talking about guys you know that. Well, I know guys
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 1: that are more active or more interested in I've known
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: guys my whole life from we're act of more interested
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: in women, not interested in when you got your shirkers too, Yeah,
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: you got your shirkers. My experience, guys like he's gonna
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: go out to the bar, He's gonna, you know, pounded
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: at the bar. He's gonna put in a long night, Thursday,
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: long night, Friday, long night, Saturday, spend all of his
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: money drinking at the bar, right. Yeah, Well that's what
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: I'm just dying to meet someone. And then you got
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: some shirkar. He's at home, he's yeah, he's got roommates.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: He's just gonna hang. See what comes snipping around two
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: in the morning. Yeah. My experience with with deer in
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: a very limited area, you know this this farm is
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: the older the deer gets, the less it moves. That's
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: the way it seems to me. I like that. We
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: saw something this year that we've already talked about a
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: bunch of times, but we saw a group of mule deer,
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: a shipload of dolls in a very nice buck in
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: an aspen patch, and Yanni is looking through his knockers
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: and he says, oh, some kyotes are coming down to
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: the asthen patch. Okay, kyles come down, and all these
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: freaking doughs just come out of there, like just spraying
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: out of this aspen patch. Okay. That buck stands there
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: and these are his like he's got him collected up.
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: He's working these doughs. He stands up, assesses the situation,
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: what's going on, looks watches the coyotes. All his doughs
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: are gone, and you see him like running that ship
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: in his head. I swear it looked like and he's like,
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just gonna lay back down. I'm
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: not gonna go running out out of this asthma patch
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: getting shot at by some asshole. He's like, I just
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: gonna lay down and this this low sort of it'll
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 1: sort itself out later. He lays back down, and then
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: over the course of the day all those dolls can
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: trick them back in that asthen patch and think about
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: the calories that he saved by not going on that run.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: And he's like, you all can run around getting all
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: worked up. I ain't. The thing to do is the
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: whole type. So that's one of the reasons that I
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: try to have a place on the farm that we
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: don't go into and let him have a place that
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: that's the dearest place you know that they can go
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: in there and and and you know that's their saying.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: It might be too um. Sanctuaries or sanctuaries do they
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: work based on your based on what you hear from
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: some of the guys that relay serious about they believe
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: in it. Because I'm not disrespecting man, I thought I
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: was trying to do your favorite No, no, no, no, no.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's pretty much a lot
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: of folks that follow the quality quality deer management type
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: ideas and sitting up their land and a lot I
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: really believe in the sanctuaries. You know, there's certain areas
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: they'll put off guarden. It's it's reached scholarly consensus. Well,
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's. I don't know off has
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: done that. I really don't. I don't. I haven't. I
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: can't say I have seen anything on that. There might be,
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: but I haven't seen it. You know, I don't else
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: have not mean, I don't mean literally scholarly, but it's
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: reached like professional consensus, right, I mean, I know a
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: number of guys who are deadly serious but keeping a
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: sanctuary intact? Do I time to go in there is
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 1: to retrieve a dead deer basically, and they really don't
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: violate their own sanctus, right that I have a hard
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: time believe that. You like, right, you got this farm
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: and all you're really doing is, you know, you got
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: all your responsibles, but you want to kill a big deer.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: You like to grow a big deer, and you want
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: to kill a big deer, and and season is going on,
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: and you know those big giants around and you look
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: in there and you see them all the time in there,
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: and seasons winding down. You got a day left, all
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: the cousins and should have gone home. In the areas
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: in the sanctuary, you're looking in there at him. Well,
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: you're telling me that there are guys out there who
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: would be like, no, I can't do it, won't, I
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: won't do it, sanctuary like that. Well, but and their defense, Steve.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: What they're saying probably is that my odds are killing
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: that buck are better by waiting out here in this
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: trail that's leading down to felf A Field or whatever.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: Might be looking at him in the sanctuary, Well I
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: don't they can see and they're probably back in there.
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: And that's the company the sancs where I'm thinking about.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: There's a little pocket you can look into, the one
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: I'm the one I'm imagining, and he's in that little pocket.
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: No one, no one. Well, if you can see him,
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: no i'ctuary could find But you're walking too close to
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: the things. If you can see him that he's like,
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: I don't want to know what's going on. This is
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: your fantasy um sanctuary that I'm putting out a hypothetical,
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: but I understand, but I would. I would like to
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: think I would. I bet you that you will find it. Most,
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: if not all, sanctuaries get violated by the sanctuary owner.
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: Maybe that is buddies, but I think sanctuaries are made
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: to be unsanctuaried by their owner. It's a way him
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: to say, let's take it easy, see how things play out.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: There's nothing you cousins and whatnot could do to get
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: in there. I'm gonna wait and see. Yeah. But the
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: thing I think I'm struggling with in all sincerity is
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: you know how hard there's as an individual hunter to
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: go in any patch of cover and get a crack
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: at any of her that's in there. And so why
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: would it gu I intentionally violated his own sanctuary with
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: a very low odds. I've ever seen that bucket that
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: goes creeping in there and puts a stain in there? Yeah,
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: I don't want to dwell. Yeah, Okay, now let me
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: ask you about this, gohead. Well, I want to circle
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: back to Yanni story real quickly. Another possible explanation for
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: why he didn't run out there is that there are
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: cases where they've they've they've documented this, you know, actually
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: photographed it, where a buck will stand down on a
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: couity or stand stand off a wolf just by bracing up,
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: taking it on and looking at basically stirring the animal.
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: Dahna saying you want some of this, come try. Well,
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: you know what's funny about that, Now that you want
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: to dig deep around this, I'll point out that those
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: those coyotes that absolutely no interest in those dear it's
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: not what they're doing. But a couple of days later,
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: another big buck they want up shooting this buck he's with,
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know seven or eight does a couple of
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: coyotes come through and he's the one that runs away.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: So they all spill off the back of the hill
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: and then over the next minutes they all trickle back
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: into where they were. He never comes back. He spilled
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: off the back of the hill across the gully and
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: we later found him betted up. So it might have
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: been like he's like, yeah, I was kind of think
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: about going to have a nap. Anyways, it's getting late
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: in the day. It's like I don't like to be
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: out this time of day because I've learned in my
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: general bucknus that it's like you get your morning business
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: taking care of and you go hide. So maybe just
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: like I was gonna leave now anyways, now I'm just
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: gonna leave trying trying to figure out why an animal
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: does something. God you know, good luck individual animal does sometimes. Yeah,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: And I just I just glassed up a skunk working
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: Doug's hill the middle to day. What was he doing?
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: Doug thinks he smells after birth from the cab. Well,
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: here's what I want to ask about, similar thing. And
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: I've i've I think I've I've talked about my I've
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: talked about what I think he wrote about. What is
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: the latest, what's the what's the the thinking on what
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: that lunar phases? Okay, a fact, dear like people like
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: I'm not even gonna bother hunting full moon, I'm sure
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: that discussion has been going on as lost people have
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: been hunting. One of my one of my guys that
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: I look up to the most as a hunter, Remy
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: Warren Remy. He is a firm believer to the point
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 1: where he'll book even for Bears spring spot Stock Spring Bears,
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: he'll book his clients around lunar cycles the bless his heart. Yeah.
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: To me, the one one thing I really do believe
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: in is that if you have that kind of confidence
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: and something, chances aren't works. Yeah. But I I but
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: don't don't do the like what works for you. I
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: understand all that. Okay, Okay, I won't, but um, like,
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: because then you're just saying that you're open up. Like
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: like if I if I say, oh, I like h
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: you know blue, like I like to this rappola, and
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: I'd be like, all right, dude, if you've got confidence
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: in it and it works for you. But that's a
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: different conversation than like what works. You're humoring someone when
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: you say that maybe. But um. The research I've seenato
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: is that when they have tried to tie in lunar
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: activity to all these different movements, whether it's UM for
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: breeding purposes, for like um, Charlie Alsheimer has had an
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: interesting theory on on on what triggers. It's a second,
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: it's a harvest moon that kind of sets things in motion. Well,
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: when the researchers go in and actually look at this
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: stuff and back back date, you know, when fawns drop
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 1: because they I backed it stuff pretty accurately and when yeah,
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: they have a known gestation right exactly, so that they
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: go back and they look at that stuff and they
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: do it year after year, and they they basically always
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: beat up Charlie's um theories on that and they beat
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: up in an inn our theory you see on on
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: lunar cycles. And because what triggers the rud is ten
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: things that you can't untangle them all, Yeah, like photo period,
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: all kinds and see like that wouldn't I would never
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: try to take on a guy like in my generation,
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: the guy that we all looked up to is John Wooters,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: the old deer Here's the deer expert for Peterson's Hunting
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: magazine back in the seventies, eighties and nineties. And John
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: really belied in the moon he um, Yeah, he really
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: followed the lunar phases and he always talked about I
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: think his his belief was that the full moon was
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: a terrible time to be out there hunt in the daylight.
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: And the thinking is least it's always articulated to me
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: by people who really abide by lunar cycles, is the
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: thinking is that it's extra light out m and deer
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: are getting all their business taken care of at night
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: because deer are like a crepuscular animal, their peak activity
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: is low light, so dawn dusk. But here they're having
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: like a crepuscular like atmosphere all through the night, dark
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: but not dark. Did they get all their business taking
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: care of and then they're all tired out and they
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: just go to bed when it gets daylight up. That's like,
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: that's your understanding, now, Uh, just to throw just throw, uh,
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: you know, just to mix it up a little bit.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: Down South America where they hunt nocturnal, where they hunt
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: like nocturnal animal. They don't like to hunt at night
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: during a full moon because some nocturnal animals have such
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: fidelity to the darkness that they won't come out on
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: the moon lit night because they're there their defense mechanisms
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: like dark. They won't hunt the way till the moon
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: sets and then go hunt. Certain nocturnal animals like that thing.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: If it's at all light, that's something bitch does not
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: come out. I'm pretty sure they found the same thing
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: with protul their studies in North America. There's certain um,
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: certain small mammals that won't come out bright moon because
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: they know the owls can see them easy. Yeah, there
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: be killed and and I guess I'm always somewhat skeptical
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: of the all night activity thing. And I think, well,
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: deer have their patterns. They're gonna be up in their
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: feet all night long. And even that's seen deer at
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: night a lot of times. But I find beds out
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: in my back little woods where I live that I
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: know there's no deer in there in the daylight, because
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: that's a little open woods. There's never deer in there
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: in the daylight. They might move through a dawn or dust,
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: but they don't. They don't spend daylight and there's just
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: too small little spot. But where you go back there
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: in the winter, there was always fresh deer beds from overnight,
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: you know, so they're not on their feet all night.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: I never I never buy that that there's you know,
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: there's on their feet, Like ohm, sweet, I can get
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: everything I was gonna get taken care of, taken care of.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: They ever have sex with all the deer I was
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: gonna have sex with, eat all the food I was
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: gonna eat up, get all that taken care of. And
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: I don't need to be running around like some more
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: on come Come daybreak another handle deer to also have
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: incredible night vision, that their eyes really are are built
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: for that night time activity. So I don't like they're
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: walking around stumb link to the dark on moonless nights. Yeah,
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: I just but I really don't argue that a hold
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: off a guy has the data and it works for him.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: The thing I would say, though, to a lot of
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: these guys that say, well, my observations on my trail cameras,
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: I never see any kind of good activity during certain
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: hours on certain days the moon, I think as that
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: realized up the scientific rigors though, you know, I really
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: you have a guy that's a scientifically modeling guy that
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: can put all his data together and really cross check
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: that stuff. As I stood that kind of scientific rigor,
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: I doubt it because most of us aren't sing. You're
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: doubt And so if God came down and put a
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: gun to your head instead, do lunar phases matter or not?
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: And you had to say it has yes or no,
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: I'd say no, I just I just go hunting. I
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: just go hunting and putting them I because well, the
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: thing I have to I have to tell you this
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: is one of Pat's favorite subjects, what phase of the
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: rut we're in? It's inside joke with him and I
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: free here because we have some mutual well a friend
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: of his acquaintance of mine who just I can't get
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: on the same page with these deer and what what
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: phases of the ruddy was? So in the fall I'll
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: contact Pat every once in a while and just ask
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: him what phase of the rut do you think we're in?
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: So moving to moving to anecdotal, what's your take on?
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: What's your take on lunar phases? Dog? Just like rob
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: person observations, don't you ignore what what you like, if
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: anything you read just because you like to pay attention
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: to dear and who's shooting to your wind and what
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: and how? And you know, I really don't even have
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: an opinion about it because I feel the same way
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: I see, Dear, look at me, do a little shining
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: and the fall we'll see. I'll see dear lying in
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: fields you know when when you can shine, you know,
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: before ten o'clock at night. Um, I always think your
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: activities based way more on what the weather. I was
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: just wanna say the same thing. I mean, I know
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: you asked me yes or no? A gun to your head. Question,
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: but God, God with a gun, Well, God would't need
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: a gun. Gotta just be he has it, so you
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 1: know he's serious. My My big thing comes to the
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: rut is the daytime temperature of the daytime templtures abo
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: above forty five degrees. That's when I get bummed out,
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: Like God, the dear probably be moving as much this
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: this for him to get the heavy quote on. I
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: just think that, well, there's more of a bigger pets.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: You're you're an air tip man, much more, much more
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: than nooner. Yeah. Now let me ask you one last one.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: Does cameo matter? And I'm not talking yeah, just like
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: I just want you to give me sort of from
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: because because you stay up on the on the research. Okay,
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: so not not personal experience, but just like from your
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: assessment of the research. Uh, what are dear seeing? Does
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: camel matter? Like? What's kind of like the current fashionable
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: feeling the thing I wrote this recently about camel basically
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: and colors, you know, like if you' getting the whole
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: color vision, what can deer seeing colors? And the biggest
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: thing by far is movement. It doesn't matter what you're
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: if you move make any kind of sudden jerky movement.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: Deer are just so tuned in to movement and they
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: half but I think it's like a three year and
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: ten degree area they can see that they don't see
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: real right above them, which we most of us know.
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: But that's why, dear, they get bow hunted a lot,
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: walk around looking at what they do. Yeah, but but
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: but because I remember growing up and being like, how's
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: that somebody's going around looking up in the trees. Yeah,
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 1: but um, what what we do know about camel is
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: that if you're not choose a camel that what I've
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: been reading on this is that dear, dear can see
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: shades of gray, and so the lighter shades are gray
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: and the letters tans. They think they shouldn't be able
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: to ascertn those lot better than can the darker hues.
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: So that the camel that has a lot of a
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: lot of light tanned light grays, I'd avoid those. So
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: that like the cou camel that's meant to look like
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: you're laying on a gravel bar, that's a lot of
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: light grays. Yeah, I guess like where I hunt, I'd
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: probably go with the darker stuff, is what I'm saying,
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: but now there's environments for I would still say if
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: I wasn't giving anybody advice trying to match for we
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: are in a common sense, you know, yeah, you know,
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: and you think that you think that the research bears
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: that out, well, what the research has show, but they're
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: not on some whole other trip seeing some whole other
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: because you know, there's this stuff that came out about birds,
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: like birds have a lot of iridescence in their feathers,
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: and like people start to think that when the birds
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: sees a bird's iridescence, it's on this whole other level
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: that you can't even begin to think about what a
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: turkey looks like to a turkey, or what what a
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: I think this stuff had to do with green parrots
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: or something. Some of the research it's like what he
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: sees when he sees that thing, he's not he doesn't
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 1: see anything like what you see. It's a completely different
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: experience for him to see that. But see, I remember
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: when they first come up to something really good color
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: vision research back about I think it was the first
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: thing that Dr Carl Miller from the University of Georgia
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: put on the screen. What's a picture of a buck
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: dressed up to the hunter he had. He had a
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: little orange hat on, had some classes on. And the
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: point teammate to start off his talk about what deer
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: see says, until we can somehow tap into that animal's
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: brain and actually see what information is passing through the
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: eye into the brain and how he's perceiving that, we'll
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: never know for certain exactly what they're seeing, because you know,
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: their capabilities are so much different from ours. You know,
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: like you read about a deer's nose for example, being
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: like the human nose. I guess they think we have
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: about five million cent receptors in our nose. That deer
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: has like three million million cent receptors. So sent to
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: us compared to a deers is irrelevant. You imagine when
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: you know that we can't begin to comprehend what that
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 1: deer's picking off all the error. So and I think
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 1: there's probably things with their vision to that from what
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: from what we know You get back to your question
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 1: about what does the research show about the camel, Well,
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: the research can't. I don't think anyone's like going in
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: the research as far as trying to match up how
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: how different cameras work in different environments, because how would
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: you do that? You know, the best they can do
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: is the that's this researcher again at the University of
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: Georgia where they have this this test set up to
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: um show the deer colors on on lighted colors over
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: feed bins. If they choose the wrong color, the feed
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: bin won't feed feed bill, feedbin shuts well. Over time
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: they get these dear train when they can start identifying colors,
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: which which colors they can identify to know that well,
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: ask for the food will be and what they've fallen
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: there was that these lighter, lighter shades of gray and white,
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 1: those kind of you know, lighter colors, they gets into
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: bility discern lest pretty well. And you're saying, like if
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: there's like blue and purple next to each other, then
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: they can't sign up. But but but deer to there,
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: they're they're blue. Ability to see blue again blows ours
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: out of the water. We can't begin to comprehend how
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: well they see. That's never heard, like I've read two
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: our guys are saying like, like it seems that one
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: thing is certain. Don't wear blue, yeah, yeah, and and
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: but you know again, like banks, what you're saying earlier though,
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: and this is just this is just anecdotal, but it's
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 1: based off a ton of like a lot of personal experience. Okay,
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: like I said, like Jackass on TV guy Ship, but
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of first experience that I have had things
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: come up, like when you're not moving, come up and
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: they just can't they just can't comprehend you, or they're
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: looking this is the probably trip me. Now they're looking,
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 1: they're not putting it together. It's a threat, but they're
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 1: curious about what they're looking at. So they're like, not
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: that I see it, dear, I just see something I
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: don't or not that I see a person or a threat.
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: I just see something I don't understand. And they're looking
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: at you, but not no fear. There's like they see
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: something they haven't seen well, And then I think they're
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: like seeing it's gotta be they're seeing like a collection
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: of colors or a collection of shapes that's unfamiliar, because
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 1: even coming toward it, ears perked forward coming at you,
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 1: just being like hell is that more curious? The same
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: way deer go up to trail games, it's like, yeah,
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: what the hell's that thing? Those four and they go
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: up to it to be like, what is it? You know?
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 1: And I've seen um. I used to hunt um northwestern
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 1: Ontario for deer quite often back in the in the
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: nineties and in late nineties, early two thousand's, and it's
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: my place I ever seen this. I the biggest, the
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 1: buck I'm most proud of as a hunter that I
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: killed was up in Ontario. And that buck I was
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 1: looking at me for the longest time until I think
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: he's looking at me for a long time before I
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: actually saw him, because I was on this little precipice
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: looking in this valley below me. There's a recent clear
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: cut me a ten year old clear cut. And I
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: looked up into the jackpines across from above yards away
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 1: and I saw the haunch of a deer. I thought,
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: that's gonna be a deer and I looked, there's only
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 1: the third deer I saw it in seven days. I
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: got my scope up because I knew it was a
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: deer and it wasn't any thought about that, and I thought,
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: that's a buck. I'm gonna be ready to shoot. I
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: got sorry, yeah, on trigger hand, but I make a
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: long story short, I got I got that scoope up
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 1: a deer is looking right at me. It looked like
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: the way he was looking at me is like he's
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: probably watched me for a while, curious, curious, like what
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 1: the hell is that over there? Because I often to
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: see many humans in that particular area. And I killed him,
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: and I bought two years later, similar thing happened to
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: my buddy and I just guy named Bruce Ranta losing
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: in Canora, Ontario. We're moving along this this old granite
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: face looked across these big openings up in top right right.
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: Not just like he rolls out of the ground, which
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: he literally did, this book stands up and this looks
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 1: at us. Didn't run off to like a typical deer
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: around here would do. Just there looked at us. And
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: I had time where I didn't. It wasn't like I
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: took my time, but I hit the ground and got
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: my rifle up and shut him off the prone position
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: and nailed him and he went down. And so I thought,
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: that's twice I've had bucks in these areas that are
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: hunted very often just looked me over out of curiosity.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 1: You know, they don't do They're never curious about what
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: they smell exactly. Yeah, they never questioned their nose. That's
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 1: I think that you can take that one to the bank. Ye,
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: I don't need no outdoor columns and tell me that, well,
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 1: can you throw out the stories? I want to know
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: why you're most proud of that, because because because just
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: because that sty conditions. No. Yeah, it was a really
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: tough hunt. It was. I had eight days to hunt it,
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: and I was I was bound, determined not to leave
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: till I put in my full time, and going into
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: that seventh day, I've only seen one deer distance where
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: s Norton and I had one little buck I passed
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: up the first day, which I was not gonna go
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: all the way down Tarry and shoot a four corn,
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: you know, so I let it go. But I got
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: down to where I knew I was done in my
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: final afternoon, I want more and more in the goal.
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: And I another reason I was proud of it, because
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: I remember was a big old fatty. It was a
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: big book. He wied to forty dressed out. I said,
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: a beautiful cathedral type ract. It's a real tight thirteen
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 1: and a half being spread. Beautiful deer and what was
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: what I was really one of the things I was
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 1: proud of too, not only the fact I persevered through
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: that kind of tough hunt and I got up on
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: the spot and it's like two o'clock in the afternoon.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: There's actually one fifty one fifteen the afternoon. Because I
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: looked my watchupter I killed him, and I was looking around,
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: and I thought, this is a cool spot I might
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: come back through tomorrow morning. And I had when these
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: old GPS units, from the original GPS units that Lawrence
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 1: made it that this tall, and they had these in
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: a big cargo pocket and marred locking that spot in.
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: And then as I snapped a little button number in
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: that little snap, and I thought, God, that was loud.
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: And I thought, and it was a quiet deal like today,
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 1: I thought, before I budge a bear, look around real
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 1: carefully before I budget, I thought, I looked around and
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 1: see that haunch and I killed him. I thought, uh,
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: you know so often you do that kind of thing,
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: you get you down. Couldn't have got it done without
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: my lower ants, yeah, I think. And then and now
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: that's from the beauties. One of the beautiful things about hunting.
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: It's those kind of little odd twist like that. For
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 1: all I know, just because I stopped long enough what
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking you happened when I'm back, I backtracked that
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: buck in the snow. It it looks like came down
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: off this hill. I betchered about the time I was
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: playing around that GPS unit came up in a little spot,
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: and I think what stopped him was that that snap. Yeah,
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: I snapped, and then he looked across and saw me,
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: and I meanwhile, I'm looking down here scanning the hillside,
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 1: and there he is. I shoot him. So but I
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 1: always think, oh, there's little things that we always write
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 1: off as you know, hunters skills. I think a lot
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 1: of times just you were you, you got him because
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: you stayed alert, but you also got because a fluke,
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 1: you know, snapping the button. And I was going to
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: say that hadn't seen a You were speculating that he
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: hadn't seen a human before, and you were on this
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: press spiss that might have been a spot that he
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: was familiar with, and he goes, that doesn't belong there.
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: And so since he didn't feel you were a threat,
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: he's just standing there and I wasn't moving. It's like
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: Steve said, Yeah, I've definitely been like fortunate to hang
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 1: out in areas where you can safely assume they have
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: never encountered a human and it's just it's a different experience,
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: is they You know, the way that high pressure animals
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: react to humans is a learned behavior. You know, there
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: are a thing that goes into this too. As far
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: as um why it might have been looking at me
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 1: that long with dom seeing, I think came on headed
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 1: to a hot pink the um well, because at that
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: this tense that I was probably twenty five yards away
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: and from from the best guests the researchers can make
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 1: on deer vision, they figured the dearest vision is probably
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: bought the equivalent of our vision. That we don't know
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: what that means if you's like visions, you know, perfect
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: good vision, really good human vision. They figured that there
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: is about twenty one hundred that what we see clear
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: a hundred they see. How's that work? Um, basically I can't.
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to explain this stuff. But it's worse,
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: far worse than ours, And so they probably see kind
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: of a blurry image at that range in a hundred yards,
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 1: they probably can make it out, but it's not really
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: sharp like our I got out. I was really sharp
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 1: vision like me wearing glasses at a hundred yards, I
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 1: can see I can make things out prefine detail, and
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: that the best research they've done now recently. Then, you know,
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: like Carl Miller will say, if I get down to
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 1: chemo patterns, you could probably do really well as it's
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 1: a blurry pattern, you know, not not you don't need
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 1: all these fine details because deer can't see us find
• 1:51:51
  Speaker 1: details anyway. Alright, anything you want to add, i'd something
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 1: I want to end there was we were going to
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: talk at possibly about the U League, the movement to
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: league lies sail dear me. Yeah, yeah, because I think
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: I feel like you wrote a thing I didn't. You
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 1: wrote a thing kind of like, oh yeah, you know,
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: it could be cool. Maybe not. What I did is
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 1: I might be a little bit pissed at you when
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: I read that. I remember you telling me that, yeah,
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 1: because Steve, Steve, I remember I was somewhere, I was
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: like out of town somewhere, and I read that and
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 1: I was like, damn, pant Dirk. And I remember you
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: writing me and said just like just saying no, I
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: totally disagreed with that, and I which I which I
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 1: don't want to be on that path. But I really,
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: I really like that. I don't mind people disagree with me.
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: I was figuring out, which this is the mode you
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: probably wrote it in the big Hey day when everyone
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: thought that across the country that we're just gonna have
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: more and more and more and more, dear well, which
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: is like like turkeys, So we got a lot of turkeys,
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: let's start shooting hands and killing them year around. And
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 1: my interest in it was, um, what what triggered my
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 1: interest in it in all seriousness was I was I
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 1: was visiting my daughter who was stationed then at the
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 1: Navy Hospital in Naples, Italy, and we went to we
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: spent UM some time out in Florence. So this is
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen. We went into this really neat restaurant
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: in Florence and they're in the menu it says for
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: um is for venison and for pork that these meats
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: during the hunting season are fresh fresh from that day,
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: and the rest of the season they're frozen. I thought,
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: that's kind of cool. You can actually get you know,
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: you know, hunter killed that UM. It's called the European model.
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: Of it's called the European model. And so do I
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: need to I don't need to tell you about all
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 1: about American history. But well that it got me thinking,
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 1: know that I just come from Sweden. I've been up
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: in Stockholm and up up in Stockholm in Sweden. Um
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 1: people up there, it's the thing that they do is
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: they they don't If I want to sell Yanni some
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: meat from last year's dear, I could do that in
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: Stockholm in Sweden, and and but a lot of them don't.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 1: I mean they can legally do it, but a lot
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: of them still don't do it. They but a lot
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 1: of them they'll take meat and just give it to
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 1: them as a gift, like like we kind of like
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: what we do. But but but I guess my point
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 1: in that article, the thing I got talking about by
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 1: interviewing some of the Swedish hunters and some of the
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 1: different people who have worked in both systems, is that
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: you know, we're we could we could probably do this.
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: But I take a whole lot of rethinking of the
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: American model and how we do things in America. But
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 1: there are there are certain circumstances which I think was
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: what maybe what piste you off was that there are
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 1: areas in this country where we really have hard time
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 1: knocking deer numbers down, and so if you could give
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 1: guys financial incentive to knock them down in some these
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 1: suburban areas, whatever it might be, may not be a
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: way to deal with this. And I just think in
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: some cases, well it might be cases where are thinking
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 1: might have to evolve in that. And I don't know
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 1: if it's not happened anytime soon, I'll doubt would happen
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 1: anytime soon. But I guess I'm one thing I liked
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: about that that UM, the work I did in that
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: from my workings UM talking to people on Sweden. One
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: interesting nugget I found was that seventy of Swedes have
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 1: eaten or eat wild meat every year, seventy percent of them.
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: And I've looked around and I found some information for
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: our country and the best data I can find in
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 1: our countries about of Americans in a typical year will
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 1: eat some kind of wild animals. So that than that. Yeah,
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: and so again these all research is perfect. You know,
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: It's like we talked about earlier, with populations, you never
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 1: know how accurate all that stuff is about falling interesting,
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: how much more those Swedes? And plus for you buy
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 1: if you buy um hunter killed meat and Sweden, you're
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: paying a real premium price for it. So what that
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 1: does in their mind is that man, you want wild game,
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 1: you're gonna pay You're not pay a price for it.
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 1: And but then then but then they put a value
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 1: on it, and that's really valuable to them. So when
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: they can get it free, they think, oh, man, I
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: have scored. And so they really have this higher appreciation
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: of wild game that I'm not sure a lot of
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 1: people in our country share, and which which worries me.
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if I'm tracking I'm tracking you there,
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 1: and I agree that that is the issue. So so
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 1: that's the upside some things that when I wrote you
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: that I don't agree with it, it was a couple
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: of things. Um No, you're not like a real vocal
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 1: advocate of this, you were just exploring the idea exactly.
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 1: Um One, I think that like places, I mean, if
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: you just look historically, places that now think they have
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 1: this permanent problem with high deer numbers probably will not
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: prove to have a permanent problem with high deer numbers.
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 1: These things fluctuate wildly. So to go and like rewrite
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: uh sort of the the to rewrite the underpinnings of
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 1: our wildlife conservation success, which was the de commodification of
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 1: wildlife and getting rid of market hunting, which saved American wildlife.
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: To to try to address like a temporary problem that,
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: by some estimates isn't even really a problem um by
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 1: radically altering how we perceive and manage wildlife in America
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: just seems to me like like a a kind of
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 1: an overshot right, like way too much? Gun go ahead,
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: du So. I'm in the County Dear Advisory communitee here
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 1: from Richland County, and one of the things that came
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: up as we've been talking about reducing the dear population was, well,
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: I only use one deer, and you want to give
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 1: me four tags? What are we going to do with that? In?
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 1: The donation system doesn't seem to be working that well.
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: And I, you know, I have a handful of people
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 1: that I give uh that I give venison too. I'll
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: take it to the locker. I mean, I don't generally
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 1: cut up here for other people. So I'll take it
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 1: to the locker and they'll pay the fee and they'll
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: go and pick it up. And so at the County
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 1: Deer Advisory Committee, people were, you know, asking about well,
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 1: how do you how do you have this list of people?
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: And a young man in his late twenties, I guess,
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: stands up and says, you know what I'll do. I'll
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 1: put a spreadsheet together of people who are and we
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 1: can advertise it on social media or whatever, and we'll
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 1: address that problem by here hunters who or you can
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 1: sign up and say I'd like to have some venison,
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 1: but I'm not a hunter, and then we can make
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 1: that connection rather than like you know, feed the hungry
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: or you know those sort of things, but given to
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 1: the food pantry or in addition to that. Um. Great,
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 1: And so there's the answer, sorter to the temporary problem. Use. Yeah,
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: I'm all for a little bit of philanthropy. Um. Another
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: problem I see, whether it is it brings in the commodification. Okay,
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: so the commodification of wildlife, and then you're gonna also
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 1: further commodify access. So I usually try to look at
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: things like I'll oftentimes ask myself what's better for hunters
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: and fishermen and wildlife. Right, So when I'm looking at issues,
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: and I could just see that of all of a sudden, um,
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: these deer all right, we're going back to the eighteen
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 1: seventies and eighties all over again, when we shut off
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 1: all of our wildlife and sold it to Eastern markets,
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: that all of a sudden, the deer on my place
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 1: are real valuable. I'll be you know, there's no way
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 1: that the neighbor kid that uh moss my lawn and
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: all my cousins and ship are gonna come over here
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 1: and hunt like the old days. I'm letting this go
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 1: on a profit deal, and we're gonna make some money
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 1: on these deal and it's just gonna be the same
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: thing all over again. Man, So he shouldn't have written
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 1: that damn article. The other thing I'd say too, that
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: that might prevent what you're describing is that in our
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: country we're really buttoned down, you know, our our way
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: of doing things compared to the way Sweden does it.
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: We're Sweden let people just walk over and sell something
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 1: and let it go, and our country, chances are we'd
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: probably say before we commercialize this, we gotta get an
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 1: inspection system, we gotta get this, we gotta do that,
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 1: and we can't just let people start selling walking up
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: the kasbar up here and selling them vaness and burger,
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: that kind of things. So we'd there'd probably be so
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 1: many different things because like in Sweden, in Stockholm, from
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: what I understand is they don't have some big inspection
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 1: system coming in there and checking that guys um saying well,
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 1: it's you know, a pound or whatever it might be
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: in in Sweden compared to ground beef, which is you know,
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: fifth of that or half of that. I don't think
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 1: our country would um go along with that. I think
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 1: they want that's our country likes to have everything so safe,
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 1: everything is so perfect, to the point where it drives
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 1: me efficient way anyway. Yeah, so I I just don't
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 1: think it. I think we're a long ways from having
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: that happened. But I really agree with you that. Um.
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 1: I guess my worry as I look at deer these days,
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: I think, well, in my lifetime, deer went from virtually
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 1: low numbers. You know, when I started hunting back in
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: the early seventies, the early weren't many deer in Wisconsin.
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 1: That point, we need to add some many severe hunt
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: severe winter is really tough hunting statewide. We had seventy
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: one killed in nineteen seventy one. Well, we killed more
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 1: of that with the bow and air on nowadays, and
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 1: now we're at this time of super abundance and we
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: have CWD croc waste disease moving through you know, this
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: area we're sitting right now, I really worry about We're
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: gonna be with the white tail deer in in in
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: a couple more decades, you know. Uh. The great conservationist
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: and writer Jim Pozwits says that, uh, you know, we
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 1: used to have a lot of we used to have
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of crimes that we would committ against wildlife
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 1: based on its scarcity. Right. He says, Now we're entering
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 1: into a new thing where we um we have crimes
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 1: of abundance, meaning that that the greed comes back in,
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: you know, the greed, the commodification, the restricting of access.
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 1: You know. He says, these are all things that we're
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 1: just learning, like as a culture, we're learning how to
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: deal with how good we have it. And sometimes the
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 1: response is, you know, to just put your arms around it,
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 1: like mind, mind, mind. So yeah, that was got any
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: anything else? No? That was good. I like that. That
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 1: was a good conversation. Are you glad you brought that up? No? No,
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 1: the whole the two hours we just had that, Doug. Um,
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 1: I've got to sit and listen to you guys talk before.
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 1: In fact, the first time that you and I met
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 1: to me and dark and yeah, and the first time
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 1: that Steve and I met. The first person I called
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: when when Steve came out here was was Pat to say, Hey,
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: had this guy coming writer? I think you guys would
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 1: uh get along and and uh have some interesting conversations.
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 1: And as I recall that that cold ass hunt that
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 1: we had that that first time we did. And so
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: it's uh gratifying for me to sit here and uh,
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 1: I have the folks who follow the podcast and and
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: and you're show and everything, UM get to be in
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 1: on one of those conversations because I've been involved with
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 1: several of these with you guys Spain way back. Yeah,
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: well going back to two or something like that. Pat,
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 1: you know you'd like to add, Yeah, Um, I think
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 1: I told you in an email every day I listen
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 1: to your podcast. I think I've listen to every podcast
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 1: you guys have produced because I like them, and so
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 1: I knew not to get caught caught off guard by
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 1: um coming in with a half asked you know, concluding
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 1: thought you came you came pre concluding, yeah, because you
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 1: you always jump on guys who just say all, thanks
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 1: Jeve for having me on and the thing I was
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: But the thing I um hearkened back to with the
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 1: time I've known you, is that I really like the
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 1: fact how you are reaching out to the non hunters
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 1: of this country. The way you operate just started straightforward.
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 1: You don't apologize for being a hunter. You invite people
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 1: into your world and show them what's why this matters
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 1: and how this matters. You know that the idea that
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 1: the example you gave me in an article I wrote
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 1: about seven years ago, was that when you invite people
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 1: into your home, most people come in and they don't
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 1: know what to make of antlers, like what we have
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 1: in this room right now, And I'm as beautiful as
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 1: they are. Yeah, Like you and I can look around
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 1: this room and we see the differences the nuances of
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 1: these different antlers. Oh, my wife, even though she's in
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 1: the hall, she doesn't really get into that stuff. But
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 1: when they can start realizing that each one those deer
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 1: up here has a story, Each one those deer up
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 1: there has provided a meat that has been consumed the
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 1: people in this room and outside in their families. They
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: understand that that's hunting is not so bad then, because
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 1: you come across the likable, normal, personal thinking, intelligent, caring person.
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 1: And the story I'll always go back to that always
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 1: was formative for my understanding of non hunters. Is back
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 1: in the seventies when when it was still popular to hitchhike.
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 1: Everyone hitchhike. When I was first driving mere picking up
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 1: a college girl, I was May sixteen years old and
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 1: I was driving driving a little beater when he picked
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 1: her out, were you kind of thinking like, who knows? No,
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 1: she was she's a college girl, so she's older than me.
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 1: I knew, I didn't never didn't have a chance to wife.
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: And I I was shy as hell as you know teenagers,
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 1: so I never as I scared the girl's basically, but
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 1: I remember, um I picked she was hit shaking down
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: on the u W mass and campus. I picked her up,
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 1: and I just come back from hunting out east of town,
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 1: and I had two dead rabbits on the console between
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 1: our bucket seats, and this old g t O. Yeah,
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 1: and she looks these these two dead rabbits laying there,
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 1: you know, between our seats, and she says, did you
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 1: just shoot those? You know, because she she was obviously
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 1: you know, she knew someone hunting us. And so yeah,
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: I was out hunting up by some prairie and got
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 1: these rabbits, and she's the first question she asked them
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: was the second question was going to eat them? I said, oh, yeah,
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 1: I love eating rabbits. She says, okay then, and that's
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 1: really I think where most people are. If you make
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 1: us to that animal you kill, they're they're all for it.
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: And I always stuck with me that that um that
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: woman's question, and then knowing I was being judged by
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 1: how I answered it, luckily I answered it, you know,
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: the way she was hoping i'd answered. I. I didn't
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: kill his rabbits for joy, just for the excitement whatever
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 1: might notate them our body. The historian Randall Williams um,
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 1: I've had this conversation with a number of times where
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: he says that, uh. He talks about how hunters have
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 1: a persecution complex. He says, there are a small minority
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 1: of Americans hunt, a smaller minority of Americans are vehemently
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 1: opposed the hunting. The vast majority of Americans are just
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 1: just in the middle. Yeah, they're not particularly bothered by it,
• 2:07:43
  Speaker 1: they don't engage in it. That the first time in
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 1: your head, but in the in your average hunter's head,
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, yeah, and that's I'm the first time
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 1: I've heard in the radio, I think was on Geane
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 1: Farroca's show on and p Are Maybe is that you
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 1: remember that? And I didn't know who you were, but
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 1: my wife was listening one day says, as guy's gonna
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 1: be talking at on hunting at five o'clock. And my expectation,
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 1: honestly was that, you know, I've been around talking about
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 1: hunting for as I putting my job for at that point,
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 1: almost thirty years already, and I thought, oh god, some
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 1: some guys that get on national public radio and talked about, well,
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: if you don't hunt the deer they'll get they'll start starving,
• 2:08:27
  Speaker 1: and they'll get diseases, balat population and all those kind
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 1: of trite things that people have been saying for years.
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 1: And I always would always dry me about that was that,
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 1: But that's not why you hunt. You don't see yourself
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 1: as a pest control officer. You don't see yourself as
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 1: some guy who's doing the world of service by being
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 1: out there. You hunt because it's fun and you're getting
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 1: something out of it that's worthwhile to you personally. And
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 1: I and I never feel like I have to explain
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 1: to people why I hunt, because I think well ship
• 2:08:56
  Speaker 1: trying to explain to people why I love my wife.
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 1: That's hard, you know. And you soon started taking all
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 1: the different things that you love about your wife before
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 1: long song. It's almost trivial. Guys that just used the
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 1: like the controlling over a bundt like I need to
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 1: do it because they're over populated. I'm like if you
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 1: went out to the farmer's place that you hunted on
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 1: and said, hey, man, me and my buddies, we're here
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 1: to help you out, Like I'm real concerned about your
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 1: agricultural practice. Now, I understand you've got any number of
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 1: problems out here. I'm here to help you most farmers.
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 1: And I could be like, son, the thing I need
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 1: most of you is to go out and hunt them bucks. No,
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 1: they're gonna be like, grab a shovel. I got. I
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 1: got just the thing for you, boys, if you're here
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 1: to help me out. This was this one of those
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 1: fun things of life that happened once a while, you know,
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 1: so I listened to radio and and then I get
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 1: your Your show is done, your interviews done, And I
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 1: said to my wife, guy's pretty smart. I like that.
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 1: And then I promptly forgot your name, and I you know,
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 1: and then then about it couldn't have even been a
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 1: couple months later, Doug lets me know that you're coming
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: out here, and I I finally started to connect that's
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 1: the guy I heard on the public radio show that
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 1: one day. And then I go and I read your books,
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 1: and I said to my wife, you gotta read this
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 1: guy's books. So this you'll like this. And my wife, Penny,
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 1: she's from New Jersey, she'd never she had never heard
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 1: family Jewish people had never met a hunter in their
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: life to like him into their life. And to your
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 1: observation about people's attitudes, they didn't have an attitude toward
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 1: hunters because they didn't they didn't know any hunters. There
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 1: was a foreign concept of them. Why would they why
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 1: would you even think about hunters and hunting? And so
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 1: when they saw this guy coming into the into their world,
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 1: and they see pictures of their pregnant daughter out in
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 1: the garage, helped me cut up a deer. I think
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 1: they thought that was kind of cool. Yeah, so I
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 1: boring happens every day and then something some guy comes
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 1: and cuts the deer up. Yeah, and and and and
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 1: then the and the fun thing too is I think
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 1: they could relate to it because um Penny's mother good
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 1: Jewish name like Goldie. She was still in those days
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 1: going in New York City, going to fish markets, bringing
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 1: home a whole fish, like bigger than your blue gills
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 1: out here today, gout gutting them and cleaning them and
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 1: doing all the things that make them ready because they
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 1: understood that, you know, this isn't all. Not all food
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 1: in New York comes in in rappers. You know, you
• 2:11:26
  Speaker 1: got to yourself. So I thought that was for me
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 1: another eye opening experience where I got to meet people
• 2:11:33
  Speaker 1: who didn't hunt, and they didn't If you go after
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 1: those people and start acting against us, against them, well
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 1: they're definitely turned off down, you know, I think, I think,
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 1: what the hell's there at? Like I didn't realize that
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 1: we were in a fight, but now they were making
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 1: me aware that we are exactly But and you can't
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 1: blame them if somebody comes after them, it makes them
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 1: feel it inadequate for not caring about their particular activity
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 1: and ever anything, what what kind of bullshit's that? That's
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 1: a good concluder. Thank you, Um, thank you very much. Now.
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 1: I often in my old age, I I tell people like, uh,
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 1: if you like, like generally, if you'd like to read
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 1: someone's work, you know you don't want to meet him
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 1: because they're never gonna like you don't live up right.
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: No one lives up to them selves on the page.
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: And I've been fortunate to read to meet a lot
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 1: of writers that I really admired and uh, and usually
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 1: walk away from it wishing it hadn't happened. But I
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 1: like knowing you and having known you as long as
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 1: I did, because uh, it's fun to have the experience,
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 1: which happens to me often to be did an article
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 1: catch my eye? Okay? And um, and I'll be reading it,
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And I'll be reading it
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh that's good, right, and I'd be
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 1: like Funk's pet I love that love. Yeah, the deer
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 1: selling thing. I didn't put it together right away because
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 1: like you know, like most yeah, you just don't. Writers
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 1: get pissed that people don't look at who wrote something.
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 1: But like when you buy a movie, do you go like, oh,
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 1: let's produced, what studio prot this movie out? It's like
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 1: it's like, you know, most people like don't engage things
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: that way. Novels are different, but like just reading when
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 1: you're reading like a bunch of magazine articles in the magazine,
• 2:13:22
  Speaker 1: so how oftentimes back check like I'll be impressed substance
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 1: and execution, and they're like, who wrote this? Yeah, in
• 2:13:31
  Speaker 1: the same way, I don't. I don't think a personally
• 2:13:34
  Speaker 1: when something when someone like last week I was I do.
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 1: I do some running articles too now for the Green
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 1: Bay newspaper and like running around running down the road. Yeah,
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know why, but late in life I've just
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 1: discovered running. And I wrote this article last week about
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 1: basically the importance of having a strong core, which basically
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 1: is everything from your crotch up to your neck. You know,
• 2:13:59
  Speaker 1: if you don't have a good wrong core gets strong.
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 1: But all those kind of things you can't. You can't
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 1: be much for a runner. You got get in shape first,
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 1: be freaking become a decent runner. Well, I wrote this article,
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 1: I thought it was pretty good, and I paying attention.
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 1: Well then I but then I what was Doug suffered
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 1: a sprinting injury yesterday ahead it was fun about those
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 1: that I about A week goes by and I'm talking
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 1: to a guy who's uh, I was actually getting my
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 1: my my um my running stride analyzed by real role
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 1: um analysis done, not because I was having injury problems about.
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm gonna and the stuff once for all
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 1: and stopped being injured. I'm going to figure out what
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 1: what I'm doing wrong and whatever. And this guy's told
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 1: me it was great artically read their day. He really
• 2:14:44
  Speaker 1: liked it important to the core. I said, why I
• 2:14:47
  Speaker 1: wrote that, God, you're right that this is you you know,
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 1: excuse my names, and puts the five pararticular, and yeah,
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 1: it feels great, And I'd be lying, you know, imagine
• 2:14:57
  Speaker 1: he said, like, you know, there's just so much misinformation
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 1: out there, pat just a matter of fact, just here
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 1: day I was reading sometim I've had that happen. So yeah,
• 2:15:07
  Speaker 1: who late in life jogging jackets exactly goes killing all
• 2:15:12
  Speaker 1: kinds of innocent deer, which I happen to know. And
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 1: he's saying, yeah, yeah, so it's good. Yeah, that, more
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 1: than any other reason is the reason why you should
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 1: try to do good work. Yeah, m ship, that's that's
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 1: one thing I always tell you know. I get get
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 1: invited to speak to college classes once in a while,
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 1: and my my um my daughters used to involunteer me
• 2:15:33
  Speaker 1: for various class projects to come and talk to people.
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 1: And the point I always made about writing, because it's
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 1: a very visible craft, is that you never know who's
• 2:15:42
  Speaker 1: reading you, So make everything you write your best effort,
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 1: don't just do a half passed effort. But I think
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 1: that applies anyone in any any job. You never know
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 1: who's watching. And so to me, when I when I
• 2:15:53
  Speaker 1: when actually right, I always figure at some point someone's
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 1: gonna pick up that newspaper, pick up that mag zene
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 1: and read it. And and a lot of times two
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 1: people don't. You can't expect people to read by lines.
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 1: There's they're going to straight into the article. If you
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 1: don't catch him the first couple of paragraphs, they're out
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 1: and they're on. They never looked to see who wrote it.
• 2:16:12
  Speaker 1: And let's you see people like yourself and I did
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 1: the same thing. I'll read the article if it's really good,
• 2:16:17
  Speaker 1: all look at the name. A lot of times you
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 1: won't recognize but not if you see that name two
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 1: or three times, it starts thinking in and so so
• 2:16:25
  Speaker 1: it has to be not only good one time, but
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 1: good every time. And then sometimes topics don't interest people,
• 2:16:31
  Speaker 1: they won't read it, and that's fine. Uh, my wife
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 1: doesn't read everything I write either. Really well, the worst
• 2:16:39
  Speaker 1: mistake made my writing career is about thirty years ago.
• 2:16:42
  Speaker 1: I asked my wife one time what you thought about
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 1: column I wrote? And her honest response, wash, you've written better. Yeah,
• 2:16:50
  Speaker 1: and I've never I've never asked her since then what
• 2:16:52
  Speaker 1: you thought of anything I've written. But you know, a
• 2:16:54
  Speaker 1: lot of times you'll tell me I like that column
• 2:16:56
  Speaker 1: today or whatever it might be. But yeah, but like
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 1: I um that my news newspaper column appears in our
• 2:17:04
  Speaker 1: local newspaper now, so she sees it, but it gets
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 1: delivered to the door. Yeah, yeah, every Saturday morning she
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 1: sees my smiling my smiling gap today. Yeah. Alright, well, Pat,
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 1: thanks for coming on. Thank you. We'll have to have
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 1: you back talk more about um. You know, what do
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 1: you do when this moon when it's mooney out? Well,
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 1: see if your opinions have changed. Well, I wasn't gonna
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 1: tell you, though, Steve, I really met when I said
• 2:17:29
  Speaker 1: about the way you're handling yourself, the final final thought
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 1: on making that is that you know your final concluding
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 1: twenty five years ago. I've including Colm twenty five years ago,
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 1: and it's basically the whole idea that we don't we
• 2:17:44
  Speaker 1: do not have any hunt results. They're talking on hunting's behalf,
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 1: who are famous for being hunters, and I think I
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 1: look around now and I see guys like you by
• 2:17:54
  Speaker 1: Warren Brandy Newburgh, guys who are making their mark out
• 2:17:57
  Speaker 1: there because they have gotten to a certain stage in life,
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 1: stage in their careers were they're recognized as smart hunters
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 1: who are doing something for not just hunting, but overall
• 2:18:09
  Speaker 1: conservation efforts. And you guys meet people who can communicate
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 1: to other people outside our little circles of of hunters.
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 1: And I look at guys like Joe Rogan and I don't.
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 1: I don't listen to Joe's podcast as carefully as a
• 2:18:22
  Speaker 1: listening to yours this because they're so long and I'm
• 2:18:24
  Speaker 1: I'm always, you know, running from one topic to the next.
• 2:18:27
  Speaker 1: I think it's because of those kind of contacts you
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 1: established and you network with and you enjoy they're smart
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 1: people who can You reached an audience that we as
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 1: I can't reach, and I think we should appreciate that
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 1: and thank you guys for doing that. And I really
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 1: say that with deep sincerity. So thank you man. It's
• 2:18:45
  Speaker 1: very kind of you. Oh you bet. That's the best
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 1: including thought. Take a pointer from that, Doug extending to
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 1: do a concluding thought. Do you like my concluding thought?
• 2:18:56
  Speaker 1: That's why would have to seriously thank you for coming on, man,
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 1: thank you. We're gonna have you back to talk more
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 1: about all this stuff. It's always fun, ladies and gentlemen.
• 2:19:07
  Speaker 1: Pat dark and find his writing. Just look him up
• 2:19:11
  Speaker 1: on the internet, right, Oh yeah, you're just having Pat
• 2:19:14
  Speaker 1: Dirk and outdoors and you'll find a lot of stuff.
• 2:19:16
  Speaker 1: Or open your eye. If you live in Wisconsin and
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 1: the newspaper comes banging up against your screen door, open
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 1: it up and see. Yeah, support local journalism. That's that's
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 1: my my best witch for people. And if you live
• 2:19:27
  Speaker 1: in Michigan, go figure out what watershed you live in.
• 2:19:30
  Speaker 1: All right, take care