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Leadership Strategies and Self-Awareness: Insights with Amy Chambers · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious conversations
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  about things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:12
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
• 0:40
  Everyone, it's Roxanne Durhodge.
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  Thanks for tuning in again to Authentic Living with Roxanne.
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  Today, have a colleague that's she's in the sun all the time.
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  She's in California.
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  That's Amy Chambers, and she chambers, sorry, and she's a
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  chambers,
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  she sorry, and she's a leadership expert.
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  So Amy, thanks so much for giving us your time today.
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  Thank you so much for having me, Roxanne.
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  Happy to be here.
• 1:02
  Okay.
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  So let me tell you a little bit about her and the full buy will be in the show notes.
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  She's an executive coach, life coach, a consultant, and a motivational speaker.
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  She's been in the financial industry for well over fifteen years.
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  She has two Amazon bestseller books.
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  The one that we're gonna focus a bit more on today is Virtues of Exceptional Leaders, and
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  that was released in February 2023.
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  The second one is Six Habits of Powerful People.
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  She's done a lot of different things, along with she has a graduate degree from University
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  of Notre Dame, where she double majored in political science and philosophy, MBA from USC,
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  and has done a lot in business.
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  And I let her tell you about that.
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  And what I picked up on is that she's ran listen to this.
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  I'm thinking, like, the most I've done is a 10 k.
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  She's done two thirty half marathons.
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  So if we have time, we'll talk about that.
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  And 12 full ones.
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  And she's originally from Buffalo, and I'm here in Ivory Falls, New York.
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  So, Amy, what a path you've taken to kind of get here.
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  So tell us a little bit about the formal wanting to get into business, went to
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  traditional business school.
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  What was kind of the path that kind of led you along the way to get where you are today?
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  I remember I was babysitting for this guy that lived down the street from me when I was a
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  senior in high school, and he asked if the summer after senior year I could babysit pretty
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  much every day, all day, he'd be working and his wife was gonna go back and try to get a law
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  degree.
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  And I said, you know, mister Gold, I really need to get, like, a real job.
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  Not that watching Jack and Jane isn't important, but I think I need something for my
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  college resume, and all my friends have jobs at, like, grocery stores or restaurants.
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  I I think I need to work for a company that would give me a paycheck, not just hand me
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  cash.
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  He says, oh, why don't you just come look at the bank?
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  And I was like, the bank?
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  I didn't even know what he did professionally.
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  And turns out he was a district manager at M and T Bank, which you're probably familiar
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  with.
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  And I said, oh, okay.
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  So I started as a teller.
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  I liked it.
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  Always a math fan and enjoyed talking to people.
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  So I did that teller job all through college.
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  I would work at M and T on my summers when I came home from college, on breaks, and then was
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  also doing that back at Notre Dame in Indiana.
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  And when I graduated from college, I went through M and T's management leadership
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  development program, became a branch manager.
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  And I was thinking about going back to law school myself, but I realized the power we had
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  to change people's lives with advice and really just helping people realize how in control they
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  were of their saving and their spending.
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  I fell in love with it.
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  So I continued on into the regional manager path, ended up as a COO.
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  I was very proud of that.
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  But what really started to get me excited was leadership.
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  Started realizing that sometimes two branches at the bank would be down the street from each
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  other.
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  And in one situation, the employees were happy, they were thriving, they were getting promoted,
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  they were at the top of the sales reports and all the recognition reports.
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  And the other branch, very similarly situated, same demographics of their customers, really
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  nothing different externally, was having all sorts of problems.
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  Realized it came down to leadership.
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  That's always the factor.
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  And so I begged law school, continued on in business, and I really wanted to understand
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  what are these conditions where employees do their very best work versus they're checked out
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  and they're looking for other jobs and they don't like coming to work.
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  Yeah, I stayed to figure that all out and ended up falling in love with it.
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  So all because of Rich Gold saying, why don't you come work at the bank?
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  I spent twenty one
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  days in never know where that start's going to be, right?
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  You never do know.
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  So when you kind of think of those two environments, like you said, same philosophy,
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  same company, like you said, same area, what were some of the things that you start to
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  recognize that were some of the instrumental things that I'm going to assume you probably
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  ended up writing about in leadership?
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  Like what's some of the things that fundamentally leaders need to learn early on in
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  their career?
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  Yeah.
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  Probably, if I could put it in a sentence, the biggest thing I think that separates great
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  leaders from not so great leaders is that they know it's not about them.
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  When you lead people, it's about your team.
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  It's about others.
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  It's not about what you can do anymore.
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  It's about what you can help other people do.
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  And if you start there, every action you take or every moment of your day changes.
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  And so a few things that I realized conditions where people do great work, they get feedback,
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  they get coaching, they get development, and not just once a year at their performance
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  review, but all the time.
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  And they get feedback on the things that they said were most important to them.
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  Great leaders ask their employees, Hey, where do you want to be in five or ten years?
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  You know, what can I help you get better at?
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  And, okay, it's public speaking or it's getting this degree or certification.
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  We're going to put you in environments where you learn those kinds of things.
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  It's a real recognition of what someone's natural talents are and also what their
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  interests are and saying, we're going to put personalized development plans together around
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  you.
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  And the second thing is, and you mentioned it when we were talking before, recognition and
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  encouragement.
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  People want to be seen.
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  They want to be noticed, they want to know that the work that they're doing is mattering and
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  making a difference.
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  And so great leaders take the time to say thank you.
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  And I thought you did awesome earlier today.
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  And in that moment, whatever you did or said was exactly what we're looking for.
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  Please do that again.
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  And they make a routine or a pattern around that.
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  Again, it's not just once a month or once a quarter, it's almost daily.
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  They're looking at what people are doing and talking about it.
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  So those are some of the conditions where people do great.
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  When that's not there, people just wither or sort of anguish.
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  Yeah.
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  And, you know, doing the research for my book and also from my corporate kind of work in
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  wellness, what we found is that everybody wants to be seen, but in different ways.
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  Right?
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  So if you're the type, you're like the one that wants to be at the front of the pack kind of
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  thing, that's one thing.
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  But sometimes you have people that want the recognition as it can be soft and subtle, but
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  it's really about, you know, understanding what is Amy reading and what seems to light her up
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  when she's done a good job.
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  Is there something that I can do?
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  It could be an email that nobody else knows about.
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  It could be that, you know, you get the person's favorite Starbucks coffee card and you
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  drop it on their desk and kind of say thank you.
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  And it's a subtlety of recognition versus the people that are the extroverts are always
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  speaking up or part of potentially the sales and marketing teams.
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  Sometimes the other people that are less invasive but instrumental, they're also looking
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  for certain things and they will never say what they need and you have to kind of figure it out
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  as a leader.
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  I wrote about that in my book and probably one of the stories I use to illustrate this point.
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  I was working for U.
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  S.
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  Bank back while I was getting my MBA, and they I made some sort of recognition event for a
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  quarter of great work.
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  And they took us out of our branches for a whole day, and it just turned into what felt to
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  me like a punishment.
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  They wanted us to all ride the bus together to a surprise location.
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  And so I drove.
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  I got up way earlier than I normally had to drove into LA when my branch was very close to
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  my house just to get bused back to the area where I was.
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  It was like 100 degrees.
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  No one told us to wear comfortable shoes.
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  We went to the Getty, and we were out there in, like, heels and suits because no one bothered
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  to say, hey.
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  This is actually a casual event.
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  So my feet were killing me.
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  And then they went took us to Phogo to Chow, and I don't eat meat.
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  And so now they wouldn't have known that, and it was a group event.
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  And some people, of course, loved it, but I kind of I driving home that day, I thought I
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  had bring people in to cover my branch that would normally have been off because I couldn't
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  be there to cover my branch.
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  And now because I went to this thing, I also have to work Saturday because I need to give
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  them that Saturday off.
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  And so it resulted in me working more hours, getting up earlier.
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  I missed out on time to do MBA homework after my regular workday.
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  And it just kind of made me chuckle in that, like, there was no maybe forethought or asking
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  or dialog as to, hey, you guys have won this thing.
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  What do you want?
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  What would make you guys happy?
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  What sort of event would be a reward?
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  And I think leaders do really great when they figure out how their people like to be
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  recognized and they ask these questions.
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  Hey, Joan likes to be in the limelight in front of all of her peers and have something handed
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  to her, like an award or certificate.
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  But Tom just actually would really appreciate three hours back to go home and be with his
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  young children for like a free day off.
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  And Sarah actually likes that just kind of private email, that pat on the back that comes
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  with no one seeing it.
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  I think we do much better when we know what people's love languages are and what each
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  Absolutely.
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  And then you think love when you think love and work, but really and I I think of one leader
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  that I interviewed for my book, and he talked the rewards were based on what people loved.
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  So he would say to everyone, pick one thing, right?
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  What he would do is he would cycle out of his office.
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  And each person had the opportunity to have his office for a certain period of time.
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  But on top of that, what he did was he so let's say I wanna run a marathon like you and I'm
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  training and I'm with a club and maybe I with your I'm sure you go through shoes when you're
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  training.
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  Yeah.
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  He can give that person a certificate to be able to accomplish that.
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  And I thought, how impressive.
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  Because that meant you really had to drill down to understand what that person what lights up
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  that person outside of work.
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  Yeah.
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  And you're kind of saying to them, wow, good for you.
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  I'm so happy you're doing things that you love.
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  And this is the reward that we're going to give you for doing such a good thing at work.
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  Yeah.
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  I know you mentioned in your own book that connection is one of your tenants and then also
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  recognition.
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  This is where I think connection and recognition really meet, where we know what
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  people's lives are like out of work and we care about that.
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  And so we're aware that someone's training for a marathon and we say, I'm going to give you a
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  certificate to the shoe store because I know you've been talking about you need new shoes
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  like we're paying attention and work isn't just about work.
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  Realize people are whole and complete people outside of work.
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  I think that's where it gets really exciting.
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  Individuality.
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  Can imagine getting something like that, right?
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  And you're like working hard on something and something like that, you get rewarded like that
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  because you're doing a great job and you're going to come back and you're going to I'll say
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  that most of us wanna do well at work.
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  We may have things that we're maybe going through in our lives.
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  But for the most part, I would say that most of us that's where we spend most of our time.
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  Right?
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  And we want meaning and purpose and all those things.
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  Even though at times maybe there's differences at work or whatever, we're spending eight to
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  ten hours sometimes there and you're wanting to make a difference with whatever you're doing.
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  So to add that on top of that, and I talk about things like leaders being aware, just their
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  internal awareness, like what makes you feel recognized?
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  Because if you're not aware within yourself, what my thing might be, yeah, you could say
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  send Roxanne an email to say, hey.
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  By the way, I saw you you mastered that skill, and I know how tough it is for you.
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  And I just wanna let you know that the you help the team save this much time.
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  But say you send it to me in email and not maybe kind of bringing it up in the team
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  meeting is a better way.
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  That awareness starts with the leader ultimately, and then he or she translates that
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  down.
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  Because if I'm realizing that you're very different from me, Amy, I'm gonna say, wow, I
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  missed the mark on Amy there.
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  Could tell.
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  I obviously need to learn a little bit more about her style or her strategy because if we
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  think that you're well intentioned in giving something over to as a leader and that person's
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  kind of that shows you that there's a bit more work that you need to do to understand some of
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  the differences.
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  This goes back to that original comment I made of it's not about you, it's about others.
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  I think a lot of people feel like I'm the leader.
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  The team will adapt to me.
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  This is how I do things.
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  And really, it's the leader's job to adapt to their people.
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  And I think it's exactly what you're talking about is I need to figure them out.
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  And then I adjust and adapt my methodologies depending on who I'm with or what the situation
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  is.
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  But, yeah, that's my job as the leader.
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  I'm the one that makes the flexible adjustment.
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  And that takes a lot of humility and self awareness and a lot of openness to feedback and
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  asking questions and having dialogues and learning instead of saying this is just how I
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  do things, and you'll all deal with it.
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  Right.
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  You'll you'll have to join the train Yeah.
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  To figure me out.
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  And I think that what I hear is you're talking about the opposite of ego.
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  Right?
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  I know leaders get hired because they have certain acumen and capacity.
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  But really, the when we say the soft skills are really that's what I think separates out, you
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  know, the leaders that are just okay to the leaders that really seem to kind of excel.
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  And at that point, they're completely into service because they're thinking about how is
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  it that I bring out the most in this person in front of me?
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  And I'm just trying to kind of and then before you're just kind of sometimes you're still
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  having fun.
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  I've been in leadership And I think when you get to learn people's sometimes their fears,
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  sometimes what their gifts are and what their limitations are, and then you play to their
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  strengths but assist them with their weaknesses, then people just flourish.
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  Yep.
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  I love it.
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  I think great leaders keep people slightly outside of their comfort zones.
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  Maybe that's what I would call the learning zone, but they don't let their individuals go
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  into the panic zone.
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  Because you're right.
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  I think a lot of us struggle with change or we don't like to be uncomfortable.
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  And so helping someone advance and grow and become a better version of themselves, whether
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  they're in health care or they're an engineer or whether they're in academics, there's always
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  something we should be kind of growing and moving towards.
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  But without great leaders, sometimes we just kind of stay stuck and we remain the same year
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  after year.
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  A good leader will say, these are my person's strengths.
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  These are also some of their blind spots.
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  And I'm going to just kind of pull them or sort of push them or kind of walk alongside them
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  gently, but nudge them into a place where they're a little uncomfortable and awkward.
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  There may be cracking a little, but they're not fumbling.
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  I think great leaders have the insight and the awareness and the perception to figure out what
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  that looks like for each individual.
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  Yeah.
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  Where that subset is because fear and exhilaration could kind of be they kinda share
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  a space.
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  Right?
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  Because if you think about when a a company is growing, it's exciting, but it's also scary.
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  If we don't?
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  What if we made a mistake?
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  And then if you're, as a leader, if your fear comes out where people can absorb it or feel
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  it, or even if you're seeming like you're fine, you're all good, you're all shining a bright,
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  but everybody knows this.
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  There's a lot of fear in the crowd.
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  Not owning it or even naming it sometimes makes people feel so incongruent, and that's where
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  you miss the opportunity to really kind of speak to what's happening in the room.
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  Absolutely.
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  With the book, tell me what are the seven virtues of, exceptional leaders?
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  Because I I mean, I'm sure we've already talked about policies, but what are some of the the
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  qualities that we haven't chatted about that that, that's in the book?
• 15:39
  Yeah.
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  When I first published this book, I was always telling people, it's an acronym, and that means
• 15:43
  the letters for something.
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  Everyone was like, we know what an acronym is.
• 15:47
  And, I can tell it's an acronym, like, because of the periods between the words.
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  Right.
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  Sounds
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  like you're highly intelligent and insightful.
• 15:54
  I'll just run you through the acronym or the model.
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  I call it a framework as well.
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  V is for vision, I is for involve, which we've talked about a little bit.
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  R is for routines.
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  T is for talk.
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  U is for understand.
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  E is for encourage and S is for showcase.
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  And within each of these seven virtues, there's practices and processes that I encourage people
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  to do very actionable steps of like, this is what talk terrifically looks like, or this is
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  within encourage energy, how you will encourage energy.
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  But those at a high level, those are what the seven virtues are.
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  What do you find as with beginning leaders, for instance, what do you find are some of the
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  challenges generally with beginning leaders versus leaders?
• 16:38
  Oh, that's a great question.
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  And they're all things that I failed at and made mistakes around when I first got in
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  leadership, which got me inspired to write the book.
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  Cause I'm like, let me just share.
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  Me as an early leader and how much I screwed it up before I realized.
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  Few things come to mind right off the bat.
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  These are common things I see.
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  I think, you know, beginning first time leaders, they struggle with empowerment and
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  probably most people call it delegation.
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  But I like the word empowerment.
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  I don't feel like we're delegating.
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  I feel like we're turning over the keys to the castle.
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  It's a good thing.
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  Like, people are gonna grow because of that.
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  But they sort of feel like they have to do it all themselves.
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  A lot of people get promoted into leadership in some department division industry because they
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  were a great person that they're about to manage.
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  They were an awesome engineer.
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  Now they're the leader of the other engineers.
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  They were a great whatever it was.
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  And and so they feel like I did this really well.
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  I've kind of got these strategies or these things that work.
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  And so when they see others doing it differently, I can't handle that.
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  I'll take it back and I'll own it.
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  And I can do it faster and better myself.
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  And so I guess along with this is kind of the second thing, they don't want people to make
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  mistakes or fail in the same ways they did.
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  And so instead of just saying, you know, you hire that person that I don't I wouldn't hire
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  if I were you, and we'll just see how it works out for you.
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  One of us is going to learn something either I'm going be wrong or you're going to be wrong,
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  and then we'll talk about it.
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  They're not able to do that.
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  I guess this is in a scenario where they're managing other leaders.
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  They would say, Hey, I don't think you should hire them.
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  I would take this person.
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  Here's why I really want you to do it that way.
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  They they won't let people kind of discover for themselves.
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  They feel like they have to answer questions instead of asking the questions.
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  And I think what this does unintentionally is it robs the people around them of their own
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  journey.
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  The people become dependent on the leader.
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  I've got to go ask my boss what they think I should do.
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  And so the leader will say, you should do this because like, that's why I'm in leadership,
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  just to know what to do.
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  But I think more advanced leaders say, what do you think we should do about this?
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  What have you come to so far?
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  What research did you do?
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  What questions have you asked?
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  Okay, yeah, why don't you try that?
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  Like, maybe it's not going to work out, but then we're all going to learn something.
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  They don't want to go have other people go through that pain.
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  And I do think that cuts off a learning process.
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  And so again, I think more advanced leaders say it's okay to fail.
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  It's okay to make mistakes.
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  It's okay to get uncomfortable and struggle and have challenges.
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  And that's how I'm going to help people grow.
• 18:58
  But I am not going to do things for people.
• 19:00
  I'm going to let people bumble through it themselves.
• 19:02
  And I'm going to allow myself to be uncomfortable watching that because I got to
• 19:05
  have a stronger team next year than I have this year.
• 19:08
  And that's the way to make it happen.
• 19:09
  So that's kind of the most common thing I at least see when starting out.
• 19:13
  Yeah, that's the difference between managing and leading.
• 19:16
  Yes.
• 19:16
  That's that line.
• 19:18
  And every time you go up a level, right?
• 19:19
  You have to get comfortable with the fact that was more tactical and that was leading, but
• 19:25
  it's that discomfort, that dysregulation within yourself because you're thinking this may put
• 19:30
  us back.
• 19:30
  But really, the point that what you're doing is that whole concept of get them a fish or teach
• 19:35
  them how to fish kind of thing because eventually, I mean, people may not do it the
• 19:39
  way you do it.
• 19:40
  Yes.
• 19:41
  But that ability to problem solve and then problem solve and maybe even go back to their
• 19:45
  other team members and be able to have those conversations and figure it out.
• 19:51
  How valuable is that?
• 19:52
  Because then they could kind of go back in the recesses of their mind to say, oh, that didn't
• 19:55
  work so well, but this is better, or this seemed to be a better approach with my team or
• 20:00
  things like that.
• 20:01
  That's right.
• 20:01
  You have said it so well, better than I was.
• 20:04
  And so I guess I'll summarize what I heard you say, because I think it's so true.
• 20:08
  Yeah, they probably manage and supervise more than they lead and empower.
• 20:12
  They focus on short term results more than this long term journey.
• 20:16
  Yeah, they get very wrapped up in tactics and kind of the day to day the weeds versus the
• 20:21
  strategy and the bigger picture.
• 20:23
  They don't make kind of this transition to, hey, the things I used to do now, I've got
• 20:28
  people to do that for me and I need to let them do that.
• 20:30
  And I need to get out of the way they're not comfortable with that.
• 20:34
  Yeah, I think it's it's I just love the way you put it really good.
• 20:38
  In reference to like I talked to a lot with burnt out leaders, right?
• 20:42
  Leaders that are not taking care of themselves.
• 20:45
  What are you finding out there with leadership?
• 20:47
  Obviously, we know that the leaders in Swirl, we're in that bit of that huddle, like with you
• 20:52
  guys, or just globally.
• 20:54
  There's so much going on.
• 20:55
  What are
• 20:55
  you finding with the leaders that you're dealing with?
• 20:58
  How are they dealing with their ability to cope with all that's on their plate?
• 21:02
  You ask great questions.
• 21:04
  This is a hot topic right now.
• 21:05
  Guess I feel it's always been.
• 21:07
  I do think a lot of people struggle with burnout and that's because they're afraid to
• 21:12
  set boundaries with their boss or their company or even themselves.
• 21:17
  They're underestimating the importance of that whole complete person and that whole complete
• 21:21
  life and balance.
• 21:23
  They feel like they've got to be perfect and they're people pleasing.
• 21:26
  I can't leave early because we got this project coming up.
• 21:30
  And what might that look like?
• 21:32
  And what will people say about me if they notice that I went out the door at 05:00 when
• 21:36
  there was more work to be done?
• 21:37
  And so I'm just going to kind of call my wife and tell her I'll miss the little league game
• 21:41
  that Billy's in because I just need to be here right now.
• 21:44
  They tell themselves these stories of like, it won't always be this way.
• 21:48
  I'll do Dip Better next month when the project or the initiative is over.
• 21:51
  But then this becomes a pattern of behavior and they're not practicing just saying no.
• 21:57
  And I've got more important things to do at the moment.
• 21:59
  Not that work isn't important, but today, Thursday afternoon, I have a kid playing his
• 22:03
  first little league game.
• 22:04
  Like I'm that's where I said I was gonna be, and I have to be that.
• 22:07
  I'm going to be there.
• 22:08
  They blow things off.
• 22:10
  And then I think that becomes, yeah, a practice that they engage in for years.
• 22:14
  And then they have this kind of unhealthy relationship with their work and they skip
• 22:18
  vacations and they won't just walk out the door.
• 22:21
  And I really respect I've had a few leaders that just would go and say, like, I got a
• 22:27
  family commitment.
• 22:27
  My family is important to me.
• 22:28
  It's actually number one.
• 22:30
  It's more important than work in the greater scheme of my life.
• 22:33
  So I'm here my fifty hours or forty or whatever it is.
• 22:36
  But in this moment, I'm not going to make a compromise.
• 22:39
  And so you guys will figure it out.
• 22:40
  I'll be back tomorrow.
• 22:41
  Have a great night.
• 22:42
  Don't call me.
• 22:42
  And when the leader does that, I think other people realize they can do that well.
• 22:46
  Then they can fall in pattern and that moves right into my I remember when I was in
• 22:50
  corporate, I took piano lessons with my son.
• 22:54
  Oh, what's sweet.
• 22:55
  Right?
• 22:56
  And I was always hightailing it to try to get to piano lessons, oftentimes late, and I would
• 23:01
  get the luck from him, right?
• 23:03
  But would you say that sector impacts the capacity for leaders to feel like they can take
• 23:12
  the time because if it's normative not to and I remember at my time, you know, it was kind of
• 23:19
  starting to get there, Amy, but it wasn't there yet.
• 23:23
  Do you think that different sectors is dip even today is different about people taking that
• 23:28
  time?
• 23:29
  I do.
• 23:30
  And I also think even within a sector, a company can create a culture where it's like,
• 23:34
  this is the norm.
• 23:35
  And I guess I have these thoughts on it.
• 23:37
  Regardless of it, like, hey.
• 23:39
  It's it makes you feel that way.
• 23:41
  I guess I feel we have this responsibility to be the change that we want to see.
• 23:46
  And if we work at it and say it's a dead end, I'm, you know, operating this way and then I'm
• 23:51
  getting judged for it or talked to about it and HR is not supportive.
• 23:55
  I just believe people should leave, whether it's the company or the sector, but they should
• 24:00
  kind of stand up for the overall life that they want to have.
• 24:03
  And this gets into a much deeper conversation of like life vision statements.
• 24:06
  I'm a big believer in them having a purpose statement or a vision statement for your whole
• 24:10
  life.
• 24:11
  And if you say most people who do it, they do have family personal hobbies and pursuits,
• 24:17
  their faith or their religion on there kind of towards the top.
• 24:20
  And I'm just a big believer that if you've got a job or a work that is in constant conflict
• 24:26
  with that or you're allowing it to be like, you're not in the right place.
• 24:29
  And if you're talented, you can go somewhere else and you'll have opportunities.
• 24:33
  I do believe, even though it might be, you know, sometimes sector specific or company
• 24:37
  specific, great leaders in all industries can lead in ways where the amount of time it takes
• 24:44
  to get things done actually goes down and people don't need to be there as much as we
• 24:48
  think.
• 24:48
  And a lot of people are highly inefficient with the actual activities they're doing.
• 24:53
  And if you really dig into like, what are people doing with their time?
• 24:55
  It's a ton of busy work or it's a lot of going back and fixing stuff because communication was
• 25:00
  poor.
• 25:01
  And so I just also think great leadership fixes these problems.
• 25:04
  Okay, we got to work our asses off.
• 25:06
  I hope it's okay to say that word, but work our butts off to get this stuff done.
• 25:10
  It's not that way.
• 25:11
  You usually get 80% of your results from 20% of your efforts.
• 25:13
  And so I think great leaders dig in and say, how are we spending our time?
• 25:17
  And they find all sorts of red tape and bureaucracy and then they dismantle that and
• 25:21
  then everybody can have a healthy life.
• 25:23
  Maybe I'm an optimist, but those aren't my beliefs.
• 25:25
  No, and I think when I'm talking that I left corporate in 2010, right?
• 25:29
  So at that time as a female executive, it was different.
• 25:32
  And I had a young child as well.
• 25:34
  But now, and I think obviously the pandemic put the Bunsen burner under it for people to
• 25:40
  recognize what people are juggling between home and work.
• 25:44
  You always feel split when you're a young parent.
• 25:46
  Yes.
• 25:47
  And things like that, when they saw what people were actually coping with, I would call it work
• 25:51
  life effectiveness, there's no balance there.
• 25:54
  If you're always kind of teeter tottering somewhere along the way, And now people have
• 25:59
  gone back to the office and stuff like that.
• 26:01
  I think that they're going back with a different lens and we can't go backwards like
• 26:05
  we were, thank goodness.
• 26:07
  I went virtual in 02/2004.
• 26:10
  So we were that was a long time ago.
• 26:12
  Yeah.
• 26:12
  I remember even being at home and my neighbors would think, what is she you know, kinda like,
• 26:17
  what's she doing at home?
• 26:18
  And I've been working and they didn't because I live in a little town on a little cul de sac.
• 26:23
  And then you now you realize that generally people are we've adapted to a different
• 26:28
  paradigm, which is phenomenal, I think.
• 26:30
  And but now there's tensions between how do you kind of adjust back and how do you stay
• 26:36
  connected, all those different kinds of issues based on the stage that we're in now.
• 26:42
  Such great points.
• 26:43
  And I I do feel that there's lot of negative things that came out of the pandemic, the least
• 26:47
  of which is not like I don't know if it's the final duff count.
• 26:50
  Six million people passed away.
• 26:52
  Awful.
• 26:52
  But one of the positives that I think came out of it is it did show the world a different way
• 26:56
  to work and companies did survive.
• 26:59
  And in some cases through 2021, '22 had great results and their entire workforce was at home.
• 27:04
  I was in a credit union space and we figured out how to get all of our call center employees
• 27:09
  working out of their own living rooms and bedrooms.
• 27:12
  It took some technology workarounds.
• 27:15
  But when it first came, I was kind of not the innovator.
• 27:18
  I was like, well, the call center staff's going to have to come in because, I mean, they're on
• 27:21
  the system and we like what they use and the programs, but also like the just everything
• 27:26
  that they're broadcasting over these phone lines.
• 27:28
  They're not gonna be able to do that in their own homes.
• 27:31
  And sure enough, we got the whole call center home within a few months, and I'm listening to
• 27:34
  the quality of the calls, I'm like, it's great.
• 27:36
  It sounds exactly the same as them when they're here in the call center.
• 27:39
  And that was like a big accomplishment.
• 27:41
  I do see now the struggle for some companies is they want everyone back in the office and
• 27:46
  employees don't want to go because they've learned how nice it is to at least a few days a
• 27:49
  week not have to get up, press a suit, get in the shower, drive, spend their gas, park, fight
• 27:55
  traffic for a couple hours, and they can be just as effective at home, throw a load of
• 27:59
  laundry in on their lunch break or run the dishes in between a couple of calls, and their
• 28:04
  life feels better and fuller.
• 28:05
  And I see the companies struggling with this the most.
• 28:08
  From my perspective, there's a lack of trust.
• 28:11
  It's like we don't know what our employees are doing unless we can watch them.
• 28:15
  It's like, that's a huge foundational problem that you're going to have, whether they're in
• 28:19
  there in person or not, that there is not this value exchange of we pay them.
• 28:24
  And we believe that we've hired the right talent.
• 28:26
  And we believe that there is just as invested in our goals as we are.
• 28:29
  And we don't need to watch them and see them to trust that they're going to do great work.
• 28:33
  It's a There's a huge erosion there.
• 28:35
  And in a lot of those organizations, you see a lot of struggles right now.
• 28:39
  Because like the concept is FaceTime when I was in corporate was FaceTime, right?
• 28:44
  Then you look up that concept basically fourteen, fifteen years later, and it's if you
• 28:48
  don't have the capacity to allow others that you've employed, and you've brought them on
• 28:54
  your team to do their jobs, then how are you creating psychological safety?
• 29:00
  And yeah, maybe things might trip along for a bit and your numbers are going to be good, but
• 29:05
  eventually people want to feel validated because if you're second guessing me and you're
• 29:11
  my leader, then there's going to be that deterioration in my capacity to believe that
• 29:17
  you think I can do a good job, and then everything goes south from there quite
• 29:20
  literally.
• 29:21
  Right?
• 29:22
  I remember a stern talking to I got probably ten years ago.
• 29:25
  I was at Bank of America, and I said to my boss at the time I'm managing 15 branches.
• 29:30
  I've got, yeah, 15 branch managers that all have their own office and I'm saying to her,
• 29:34
  you know, with this one particular thing, I I just don't know if I can trust this manager of
• 29:38
  mine to do that and she just went loose on me.
• 29:41
  She says, Amy, you you pay this person almost a 6 figure salary.
• 29:44
  You've had, they've got the keys to the vault.
• 29:46
  Their vault closes with over half a million dollars every night.
• 29:49
  You can't trust her.
• 29:50
  Why the heck is she working for you?
• 29:51
  If there's a real trust problem, there's specific things she's done to, you know, make
• 29:55
  you question trust.
• 29:56
  She should be out of disciplinary action and you should be you you should have a wreck open
• 30:00
  right now.
• 30:01
  What do you trust there?
• 30:02
  And I really had to think about that.
• 30:05
  And my boss was absolutely right.
• 30:06
  If I if things had specifically happened where trust had been broken and we couldn't rebuild
• 30:10
  it, they just shouldn't be with me.
• 30:11
  And if we do keep the people with us and we think really highly of them, that's why we've
• 30:15
  employed them, then like we've got to turn over the kind of the keys to the castle and the
• 30:19
  decision making powers to them and believe in them.
• 30:22
  I had another boss that said, you know, you'd rate someone a four on their performance review
• 30:26
  out of five, like an exceeds expectations, does it ever make sense to make a decision for them?
• 30:32
  And I was like, maybe sometimes.
• 30:34
  And he was like, I think the answer should be no.
• 30:36
  It's like you will.
• 30:36
  You put them in a place of power.
• 30:38
  You let them make their own decisions and you trust they'll come talk to you when it's kind
• 30:41
  of going off the rails and they'll enlist your help when, you know, when they need to and ask
• 30:45
  advice at the right times.
• 30:46
  But you got to have some faith in them.
• 30:48
  And I love this topic.
• 30:50
  I think a lot of people really saw
• 30:51
  Well, no, because I completely believe in psychological safety, right?
• 30:55
  So if you're saying, and I remember when I was young, I was running a unit of the hospital and
• 30:59
  I came in, of course, in both my psychological background into management.
• 31:04
  These are all highly trained people, I'm the youngest.
• 31:07
  I'm half their age probably at this point.
• 31:10
  And I went in and spoke to capacity and all those things.
• 31:13
  And because they had been led under a lack of trust, that poured on to me as the new leader,
• 31:21
  thinking that what's she up to?
• 31:23
  I'm gonna scatter the liar until I see what you're doing.
• 31:26
  And then I'm like, no, no, no.
• 31:27
  This is actually you're gonna see with time that this is who I am, and I truly believe that
• 31:34
  it's possible.
• 31:35
  Took two years.
• 31:36
  Yep.
• 31:37
  Two years of a lot and they were working hard, but it still took two years for them to just
• 31:43
  settle down because previously, a couple of, I guess, cycles of management were not trusting
• 31:49
  of them and then they were second guessing their capacity all those So that corrosive
• 31:54
  element is so destructive long term.
• 31:57
  Absolutely.
• 31:58
  We talk about childhood trauma a lot and this is kind of a buzzword now in today's day and
• 32:02
  age.
• 32:03
  And I think really what you're talking about is kind of professional trauma of previous
• 32:07
  leadership.
• 32:08
  And I probably wouldn't call it leadership, but previous management having instilled these
• 32:11
  beliefs in them of I can't quite believe this leader, like what they say they're going to do.
• 32:16
  I'm going to need to see it.
• 32:17
  I do have this belief.
• 32:18
  It's a model I call Ebar experiences lead to beliefs, beliefs lead to actions, actions lead
• 32:23
  to results.
• 32:23
  And so I think the reason it takes two years is because they had, I don't know how many years
• 32:27
  of previous experiences, but developed some pretty strong beliefs of, you know, there is no
• 32:32
  trust here.
• 32:32
  And so someone comes in saying all the right things, but it's you're going to have to show
• 32:36
  me and give me these new experiences, the pave over the old ones before I'm going to really
• 32:41
  develop new beliefs.
• 32:42
  And then you'll see my actions align with that.
• 32:44
  I have had some teams that have been really scarred by micromanaging leaders that didn't
• 32:49
  have their back, that would say one thing and do another, or sometimes be actually out to get
• 32:53
  them.
• 32:54
  And they had to be very careful and watch their every step.
• 32:56
  And I would show up and be like, Okay, well, don't know what happened, but I can see that's
• 33:00
  going on or you're telling me about it.
• 33:02
  Day in court here.
• 33:03
  And they would be like, okay, but it would take months and months and upwards of two years
• 33:08
  before you really could say we've recovered from that.
• 33:10
  And I've shown them something new and I think it's really important work.
• 33:14
  So Bravo to you having that experience.
• 33:16
  It's fun.
• 33:16
  Like you used the word fun earlier.
• 33:18
  I think it's fun to actually help people recover and develop.
• 33:22
  Yeah.
• 33:22
  Because, you know, and and what they did was after a while, I think I had stayed there in
• 33:26
  that that management role, and I was young.
• 33:28
  Right?
• 33:28
  It was in my twenties.
• 33:29
  Yeah.
• 33:30
  Right?
• 33:30
  Grad school.
• 33:31
  And at the time I had left and I was consulting with them, they were a self functioning team.
• 33:37
  I love it.
• 33:38
  Right?
• 33:39
  But it took some instrumental things.
• 33:41
  I remember that one of the first things that I did, which was so insignificant, but I got them
• 33:46
  it was Christmas time, and I got them all red shirts that set the department and, you know,
• 33:53
  had a little logo that told me something about their personality and their name.
• 33:58
  We had a little get together off-site, and that was like it was about two years in the making,
• 34:04
  and then it's almost like they finally said, Okay, we can breathe.
• 34:07
  Yeah.
• 34:08
  We can just breathe.
• 34:09
  And I think that's ultimately what people are trying to do as they work in environments where
• 34:15
  they're trying to make a difference and they feel like they're being pushed the wrong way of
• 34:18
  achieving good results for themselves.
• 34:21
  I love it.
• 34:22
  So this has been, I think you and I have, like we said before, we have alignment and tell us
• 34:28
  what you're up to.
• 34:30
  I know you also do you speak as well and you do other coaching.
• 34:35
  So tell everybody a little bit more about your business and where they can get a hold of you
• 34:40
  Amy.
• 34:40
  Absolutely.
• 34:41
  Okay.
• 34:41
  I I just a quick what am I doing now?
• 34:43
  I am working on a third book.
• 34:45
  It's called couldn't run a mile.
• 34:47
  I did run my two hundred and fifty fifth half marathon last weekend, and everyone always
• 34:52
  says, wow, that's so many of them, but it was only ten years ago.
• 34:55
  I could not make it to the end of the block without running.
• 34:57
  And I just have developed this really big interest, passion need to put in a book, what
• 35:03
  it was that made the difference between couldn't get to the end of the block, could not
• 35:06
  run a mile to now almost 15,000 miles of running later.
• 35:10
  So that's what I'm working on.
• 35:11
  Amazing.
• 35:12
  Amazing.
• 35:13
  I have to read that.
• 35:14
  I've never ran over my years, but it has been my thing when my son was young.
• 35:20
  It was the best investment of time.
• 35:22
  So I knew what a five ks was and I had the exact roots.
• 35:26
  Probably a little bit different from me.
• 35:28
  I'd be like, okay, I know I'm leaving now.
• 35:30
  I know I could just put on my shoes and get there and it'll be done like it, you know, I
• 35:34
  wasn't doing too bad back then, twenty two minutes or so, probably slowed by your
• 35:37
  standards.
• 35:38
  Oh wow, no, I But
• 35:40
  I knew exactly.
• 35:41
  And I was like, gotta just breathe through this.
• 35:44
  But I'm more the type, I like CrossFit stuff like that.
• 35:46
  But
• 35:46
  Oh, wow.
• 35:47
  Know, to me that's you know?
• 35:49
  And but it's it I would love to hear the steps of that.
• 35:52
  So Yeah.
• 35:52
  Everybody thinking about and it's not I would say it's not just about running.
• 35:56
  It's about It is not.
• 35:56
  Something that's difficult.
• 35:57
  Right?
• 35:58
  You know, it's most of it is mental and it was, probably the book is sort of turning into, like
• 36:03
  these 10 principles and almost all of them are decisions I made from a mindset standpoint of
• 36:08
  like, hey, it's okay if it's hard and struggle is a good thing.
• 36:11
  And not all days are created equal.
• 36:13
  You can go out and have a great day.
• 36:14
  It isn't linear.
• 36:15
  It's gonna be all over the map with progress.
• 36:18
  So it's all things that would be applicable to people's relationships and their professional
• 36:21
  lives.
• 36:21
  But it did make the difference of why I finally was able to stay with running and then,
• 36:26
  continue it in the relationship I formed with how I thought about it.
• 36:29
  But it's the same stuff that we need to know at work and apply in a relationship.
• 36:33
  So there's that.
• 36:34
  Amymchambers.com is where people can find me.
• 36:37
  There's a calendar link on there to schedule time with me or a free call.
• 36:41
  There's also a link on there to both of my books.
• 36:43
  We've talked a lot today, which was great about the leadership and business book.
• 36:47
  The second book was all about personal happiness and joy and the relationship we have
• 36:51
  with ourselves.
• 36:52
  And so Virtues 15 and Habits 15 takes 15% off each book respectively.
• 36:58
  But people can learn more about my one on one coaching, leadership consulting that I do with
• 37:02
  small businesses, buy the books, everything is there.
• 37:06
  Amymchambers.com.
• 37:07
  So that's where people can reach me.
• 37:09
  I'm also on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, all the things all under Amy
• 37:13
  Chambers.
• 37:13
  I'll find them both.
• 37:14
  So just send them your So what am I taking away?
• 37:18
  I'm taking away that ultimately, you know, when people are in leadership positions, they're
• 37:24
  learning like everybody else when they're starting off.
• 37:27
  And what they need is someone to guide them and reassure them when they hit their blind spots,
• 37:33
  because we all have them.
• 37:35
  We all have things we're phenomenal at, and we have things that we're not so good at.
• 37:39
  And instead of looking at it as being a detriment to as the leader to say, how is it
• 37:44
  that I can engage this individual to to move them along?
• 37:48
  It's gonna be uncomfortable to what Amy's point, but holding the space for them so that
• 37:54
  when they do trip up and bump their knee and fall down and don't feel good, they're gonna
• 37:58
  learn from it versus you telling them exactly how they should have steered through that
• 38:02
  decision.
• 38:03
  And at year end performance, you can have those reflective conversations, which would probably
• 38:09
  give them much more depth from that person.
• 38:12
  And then their learning plans and stuff like that would probably be a natural extension of
• 38:17
  what they've learned.
• 38:19
  So, Amy, thanks again for spending the time with us.
• 38:21
  Everyone, again, thanks so much for hanging out with us.
• 38:25
  If you're not subscribed, please go on and subscribe to the podcast.
• 38:29
  Guests like Amy are possible because you go in and you subscribe to the podcast.
• 38:33
  And as you know, I'm starting a new course on the ROR book, and it's starting mid June.
• 38:38
  So please reach out.
• 38:40
  We can jump on a call.
• 38:41
  I can give you all the steps.
• 38:42
  It's a live course with live Thanks
• 38:45
  for tuning in to Authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive healthy change.
• 38:51
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach.
• 38:55
  To work with Roxanne, visit roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 39:01
  We'll see you next time on Authentic Living with Roxanne.
• 39:11
  Coaching, and I think the spots are filling up pretty quick.
• 39:15
  So, again, Amy, thanks so much.
• 39:16
  And for everybody, thanks again, and we'll chat with you next week.
• 39:19
  Take care.