Latest / Drawn of History / Joe Rogan Experience _2546 - Michael Button(M4A_128K)

Transcript

Joe Rogan Experience _2546 - Michael Button(M4A_128K) · Drawn of History

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: The Joe Rogan Experience.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Train by day, Joe.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Rogan podcast by night, all day.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Hey, good to see you, brother. What's going on? Good, man.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: It's been a wild year for me.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: I bet it has been.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Since I was last here, I mean, I've seen my
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: YouTube growth in numbers I couldn't have imagined before. I've
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: met so many cool people. I've managed to get to
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: a point where it's now my job to research and
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: investigate ancient history and the vast mysteries of our past.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean, that's something I was doing for
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: free before. So the fact that I'm now able to
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: do that full time is just an immense privilege. And
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to everyone that's helped me get there,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: including you.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Well, you're putting out fantastic content.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: And it's such an interesting subject. And the giant blind
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: spot that the mainstream archaeologists have left has allowed all
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: these people to go through and get a much larger
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: audience even than them. And it's really important when someone
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: like you does it because you're so thorough and you're
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: so objective and you're so measured in the way you
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: describe these things and talk about these things. There's no
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: fantastic claims, no hyperbole. It's all very well laid out.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: And even when you go to like extreme possibilities of
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: these things, it's very measured. So I really appreciate that.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I appreciate you saying that.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: And Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm always trying to make it as good
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: as I possibly can. And I try and listen to
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: what people say and trying to improve. And I don't
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: think I've reached like the peak of where I could
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: possibly be, but you know, I'm trying my hardest, but
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: it's not just that. I mean, as you say, I
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: think there are so many people out there and now
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: that I'm in this position, I've seen it firsthand. There
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: are like millions and millions of people around the world
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: that are deeply fascinated by these questions, by the vast
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: mysteries of our past.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: So As well they should be. And they also know
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: that we're getting a very narrow version of it from
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: mainstream academics. And they're so determined to cling to their
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: timelines and cling to this notion that anything new that's
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: discovered by people outside of their little circle can't be accurate.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: And I think that's so silly. Yeah.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think someone like me has the kind
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: of advantage of the fact that because I didn't continue
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: my career in academia, or I wasn't in academia, but
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: that was the pathway that I was on. Because I've
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: gone independent now, I kind of have the freedom, if
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: you like, to talk about these ideas in a much
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: more open way than maybe I would have been able
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: to if I was still in academia, because I'm not
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: restricted by funding or I'm not restricted by Even the
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: pressures of, you know, people working in academia hating on me.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, I get a lot of hate anyway. But
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think I have that freedom to almost
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: come at things from a completely open minded perspective and
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: speak about these ideas without any restrictions. And I think
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: that is the advantage that I have that academics perhaps don't. So, yeah,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm in a great place.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's get into it. So in the last year,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: a lot of wild stuff has been discovered, which is
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: really exciting. It's so interesting how quick this stuff is moving. Yeah,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: it's wild.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's been, I think, two papers in particular
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: that have come out in the year since I was
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: last here on the show that I think have huge
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: ramifications for how we view history. So, I mean, I
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: don't know where to start. I mean, I think we
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: should start like this, I think. As things currently stand,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: there are three huge questions that archaeology cannot answer. And
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: it's interesting because these three questions we used to think
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: we had an answer to, but in light of new discoveries,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: in light of new evidence coming up, we no longer
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: have the answer to these questions. And I think that's
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: fascinating because it's almost like the rug has been pulled
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: out from underneath our understanding of human history, but on
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: the surface, it's kind of like business as usual. Do
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean?
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  Speaker 2: So what are these questions?
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, and this is just coming from me, right?
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  Speaker 1: So the caveat on the whole conversation, I'm not an academic,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: I'm not a professional archaeologist. I'm just, I mean, I
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: have a degree in ancient history, but I think my
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: main qualification is that I'm a super nerd for all
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: this stuff. And I spent my whole life researching it.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: So that's the caveat on everything. So don't take what
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: I say as gospel. And I always encourage people to
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: go and look at the actual archaeology, go and read
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: the journals, read the papers and go investigate what yourself,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: for yourself, like listen to what I say, but don't
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: take what I say as gospel, because at the end
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: of the day, I'm just a YouTuber, you know? So
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: that's the caveat I want to put on it. But
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: from my mind, these are the three questions that I
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: think archaeology can no longer answer, but used to think
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: it had an answer for. So the first question is,
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: and we spoke about this a little bit last time,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: is the fascinating question of why after hundreds and hundreds
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years of human
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: beings like us being on this planet, Why did it
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: take so long for civilization to emerge? And then why,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: when it did, did it emerge in all these different
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: unconnected locations all over the globe at pretty much the
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: exact same time? So we see civilization flourishing in Mesoamerica.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: We see civilization flourishing in South America, in Egypt, in
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: the Indus Valley, in Mesopotamia, in ancient India, in ancient China,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: all around about the same time, give or take a
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: thousand or so years. But compared to the time span
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: of human beings on this planet, 300,000 years plus for
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: modern humans. And I would argue some of these papers
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: are showing that it could be a lot longer than that.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Why after so long did civilization suddenly crop up all
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: over the place? And we no longer can answer that
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: question in light of new discoveries. That's question one. Why
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: does civilization emerge everywhere all at once after so long
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: of not doing so? Question two is how old is
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: human intelligence? how long have humans been intelligent? How long
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: has a mind like ours really inhabited this planet? And
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: I think two papers in particular that have come out
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: in the 12 months since I was here have huge
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: ramifications for that question. And also combining to that is
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: the question of other human species. How intelligent were other
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: human species? Because we used to think that we were
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: the smart ones. I mean, our name, Homo sapiens, literally
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: translates to wise man, which is a, incredibly humble thing
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: for us to say about ourselves. But yeah, so that's
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: question two, how old is human intelligence? And again, I
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: think the answer is we don't have the answer anymore.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: So that's really fascinating. And then question three is when
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: did humans first reach the more isolated land masses? So
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: that's the Americas where we are right now and also Australia,
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: which is perhaps less important, but still interesting. And again,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: we don't have the answer for that anymore. And I
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: think whatever the answer is to these three questions, why
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: does civilization appear everywhere all at once? How old is
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: human intelligence? And when did humans first reach the more
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: isolated parts of the world? The answer to those questions,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: whatever it is, I think is fundamentally important because whatever
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: the answer is, is the reason we're all here, right?
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: It's the reason we all live in this civilization. It's
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: the reason we all enjoy the fruits of everything that
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: we exist in today. And yet we don't know the
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: answer anymore. But As I said, on the surface, everyone's
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: kind of carrying on like it's business as usual, but
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: we no longer know the answer to the most fundamental
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: questions of how we got here. So, yeah.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: So for question number one, why did all of these
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: civilizations emerge roughly the same time? What do you think?
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Do you think that this is incorrect? And that these
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: civilizations probably existed far earlier than that, but there's no
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: evidence of them because of time and just erosion and
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: natural catastrophes and fill in the blank, all the factors.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: And or we have not discovered some of these yet,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: like some of the weirdness of the Amazon, you know,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: as they find these things. what would appear to be
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: the grids of ancient cities that are hidden in the
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: jungle that they're discovering with LIDAR and these other technologies
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: that were unavailable until fairly recently. So we know that
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: not only was the Amazon filled with people, but it
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: was filled with millions of people. And that's crazy. That
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: is a crazy shift in the way we used to
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: look at the Amazon just a few decades ago. And,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: We don't know who these people were. We don't know.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Like if you go really far back, like the Olmecs
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: is just a word. We gave them that word. We
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: don't know what the fuck they were doing. We have
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: no idea what they looked like. We know some of
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: the heads look roughly either Polynesian or perhaps even African.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: It's very strange. Very strange. Big giant heads that are
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: left behind. And that's like the cornerstone of what we
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: understand about the civilization. Okay. What? How long? 6,000 years,
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: we think. Who knows? It's just a rough guess. Like
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: there's really nothing to go on. Do you think that
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: this is just like as far back as we can
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: find stuff? Or do you think, what do you think?
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I think in terms of the civilization question, I
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: think it's just, I think it's an old idea that
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: we kind of drew this line. And the line is
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: the invention of writing, right? So it's around 3000, 4000 BC.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: was the invention of writing or supposedly was the invention
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: of writing. And that in the 20th century was kind
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: of given as the marker of civilization. We were finding
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: all these civilizations in the 20th century. like ancient Sumer.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: And so that was kind of given as the start
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: of civilization. But I think in terms of like more
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: recent stuff, so 3,000 BC back to like 12,000 BC,
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: I think the answer is that clearly civilization is older.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, considering we see things like Tashtapella, Gebekli Tepe, 12,000
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: years ago. I think that is a civilization. I think
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: over time that will come to be accepted as a civilization.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: And I think whatever you want to define civilization as,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: I think we can now clearly say that it did
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: exist 12,000 years ago rather than 6,000 years ago. So
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: that's a kind of doubling of the timeline. In terms
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: of going back much further than that, I think then
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: you get into kind of like purely hypothetical scenarios, like
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: is it possible? And that's when I think things like
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: the history of human intelligence start to come into play
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: because It was incredibly recently that we thought humans were
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: only got intelligent. We thought humans were young, like only 100,000
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: years old, only a few decades ago. And now we
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: know we're much older than that. And so this is
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: what I mean about everything kind of being back on
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: the table again, because we now have an incredibly increased
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: time span of human intelligence that I would argue, and
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: I'll come to this later, stretches over a million years.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: And yet the old idea, which is still sort of
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: in place, but I think is breaking, I think most
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: archeologists would accept that is breaking. But the old idea
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: was that humans only became intelligent around 50,000 years ago.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: And so because that idea kind of was in hold,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: it almost made sense, right? So humans only existed from 100,000
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: years ago, then got smart 50,000 years ago. Then the
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: climate got good around.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: 14,000 years ago.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: We see the agricultural revolution and the emergence of the
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: first civilizations. Like it was very neat, you know what
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: I mean? But now in light of new evidence and
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: in light of new discoveries, suddenly everything's back on the table.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Suddenly the whole time span of prehistory or not the
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: whole of prehistory, but I would argue, and I'll get
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: onto why I think this later. I would argue that
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: the time span of human intelligence has increased by 20
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: times from 50,000 to over a million years. And I'll
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: explain why in a minute, but I think that puts
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: everything back on the table. I think that the possibilities
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: of prehistory are so vast now because of our understanding
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: has shifted so dramatically in the last few decades. And
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: I don't think anyone's really talking about it. And that's
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: kind of why I do what I do because I
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: really want to bang this drum. If you like the,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: everything's back on the table, as I say. And so, yeah,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I kind of got a bit sidetracked
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: there from the original question.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Well, that's a, no, you, it's a great start. Um,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Jesse Michaels was here yesterday and he had a really
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: fascinating theory. I don't know if it's, is that his
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: theory or is it someone else's theory? The, the ergot theory,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: his theory was that, um, He believes that agriculture and
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: that as they started agriculture wasn't just significant in that
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: you could like stay in one place and you would
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: have food and you always had a reliable diet. You
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: didn't have to worry about starving to death. And then
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: you because you had that sort of relaxation that came
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: with that, you could start inventing things and building things
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: and civilization would advance. He thinks it's also because ergot grows.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: on these different wheats and barleys and grains, and that
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: these people, whether knowingly or unknowingly, were probably ingesting this
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: psychedelic substance, which is akin to LSD, and that this
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: was a key part of what Brian Murarrescu talked about
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: in the Eleusinian Mysteries, in his great book, The Immortality Key,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: and that this was probably what led to a lot
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: of invention, a lot of innovation, a lot of alternative thought.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: A lot of creativity and a lot of like, you know,
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: whatever the wild advancements of the time were.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Did you see that they just not proved it, but
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: they just did a study on the Eleusinian mysteries where
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: they kind of showed that they were doing– they did
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: have ergot? Because when Brian wrote that book, they hadn't
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: proved that, but something just came out.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Did you see the– it was a puma bone pipe
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: that they found that tested positive for DMT?
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: Where in– I do not know.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: I think it was, I don't, it might've been in
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: the America. No. Where was that? Peru. Yes.
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: Really?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Yes. How old is that, Jamie? See if you can
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: put that in a perplexity if it knows what this
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: is all about. Cause it's a fascinating subject. Cause not
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: only does it imply that they were willingly taking psychedelic drugs,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: it's somehow or another, they knew how to make DMT. Like, okay, what?
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Because that's a complicated process when you have to separate
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: the molecule from whatever plant it's in. And then you
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: have to figure out that you need to freebase it
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: or smoke it. Like what?
• 14:53
  Speaker 5: This is actually in northwestern Argentina.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Aha.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: So it's still the Andes.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: The Inca Cueva, a high altitude cave site in Jujuy,
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: northwestern Argentina. The tubular smoking pipes are made from the
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: long bones of a puma. They were found alongside anadenanthra seeds,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: including the plant commonly associated with Vilca Sibyl snuff traditions.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Residue testing detected tryptamine alkaloids in the pipes. So they
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: were figuring out how to take these seeds and smoke them.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: The material has been dated to roughly 2130 BCE, over 4,000
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: years ago. That makes the find amongst the oldest direct
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: archaeological evidence for intentional use of psychoactive anadenanthera. Sorry, scientists
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: in the southern Andes. That's fucking crazy. The careful answer
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: is DMT was detected in pipe residues. But anadanthera colubrina
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: is not simply a DMT plant. Its psychoactive chemistry can
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: include bufetinin DMT and 5-MeO DMT in varying quantities. Depending
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: on plant material and preparation, the archaeological interpretation is that
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: the pipes were used in a ritual context involving, one
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: more time, anadanthera. rather than proof that people were using
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: modern purified DMT. Either way, they're smoking whatever the fuck
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: that stuff is. They're getting DMT from it. So they
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: had figured out somehow or another that ingesting it through smoke. Now,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons why this is particularly significant is
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: there's scholars out of, I think it's the University of Jerusalem,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: that believe that the burning bush that.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Moses encountered Some kind of psychedelic.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what they think. They think the translation was,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: they believe it was possibly the acacia tree, which is
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: apparently rich in DMT, so that Moses trips balls and
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: gets some really good solid rules to live by and
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: comes back with them and said, hey, this is what
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: God said.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's clearly the case that
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: ancient cultures, not just in South America, but across the world,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: were using psychedelic substances. And yeah, that's interesting. I mean,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: the theory of whether that caused agriculture, whether that led
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: to civilization or anything like that, I mean, I don't know,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: but it's certainly interesting that human beings seem to have
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: been experimenting with psychoactive substances for a long, long, long, long,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: long time. And yeah, that's fascinating.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and much like in our culture today, and especially
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: what happened in 1970, where all that stuff was demonized
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: and put on schedule one. Back then, during the Eleusinian Mysteries,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: the reason why those mysteries stopped is because the powers
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: that be were like, hey, these guys are a fucking problem.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: These trippy dudes with their weird ideas who invented democracy,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: they're going to fuck this whole thing up. We're not
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: going to be able to run it and tell everybody
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: what to do and force them into going to war.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. The powers that be always want to
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: restrict any kind of thought that's outside of the... What
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: they want people to think. They don't want people to
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: think as freely as they can.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Anything that limits their control.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: You know, because everybody wants control. And there's always new
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: groups that say, you don't know what the fuck you're doing.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Let me take the realm. And that's always been the case.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Which is probably good for people. You know, it probably
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: is what leads to, I mean, not the war part
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: of it, but probably these new ideas that, is what
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: leads to an advancement of civilization rather than stagnation that
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: we find in some places in the world where they
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: haven't had a chance to do that.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: You know, like my friends that have been to Afghanistan,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: they had to serve over there. They're essentially saying that, like,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: they're living like people lived thousands of years ago. There's warlords,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: and they control regions, and that's how they've always done it.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: And they live this weird nomadic lifestyle in the mountains...
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: And it's not much different than the way it was
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of years ago.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Very clan-like.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And if you don't have, if that guy and
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: these groups just stay in control forever, it's like there's
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: no motivation for them to change and evolve and grow.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: There's no innovation or anything like that.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, nothing's happening. Also, they're stuck in the mountains. So
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: it's like you're just trying to live. But, you know,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: when we think of these places, these very fertile places
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: on earth where, like, particularly Turkey, Turkey's fascinating, you know,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: and many people are now speculating that that, if there
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: is a singular place, but that might have been one
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: of the birthplaces of true civilization.
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 20:08
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• 21:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think it undoubtedly is. I think Taştapela,
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: which is in modern day Turkey, is the earliest evidence,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: in my view, of something akin to civilization. And now
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: archaeologists will say it's not civilization because it doesn't quite
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: tick off every part of the checklist. But I think
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: that's neither here nor there. I think it's clearly a
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: very sophisticated culture. I mean, you have like 14 sites
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: there that are now clearly shown to be interlinked, shared symbolism,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: shared religious tradition, same architectural styles. Very impressive architecture, clearly
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: organized labor, stratified society, because how do you achieve that
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: without someone at the top and someone below? And these
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: are all things that we used to think were civilization, right?
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: And yet people aren't happy with us calling Tashdapella a civilization,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: but I think it will get there.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: But don't you think that's just because of them trying
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: to protect their timeline that they've been teaching?
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: And I think it will change. I think it will change.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's any other explanation other than that.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, it fits, as you said, all the criteria
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: for a civilization that we used to apply. And the
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: fact that they were moving the goalposts just because they
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: didn't know it existed.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And they're finding residential buildings at Gobekli Tepe now. And
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: that was always one that used to say, look, people
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: didn't live there. They must have migrated there. But now
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: they're finding that people did live there, like, I guess,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: permanently or at least semi-permanently. Yeah, there's all the sites
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: and quite a vast area all connected and So the
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: only ones they haven't got now is writing, and there's
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: an interesting discovery regarding writing at Gobekli Tepe and agriculture.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked about that yesterday.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: The Irving Finkel thing.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, really interesting. So are those, where you see
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: those pillars, are those sites where you have like those
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: concentric circles?
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: I assume so. Those are the famous ones anyway, Callahan Tepe,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Gobekli Tepe, Safer Tepe. Those are the biggest ones.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: And only 5% of Gobekli Tepe currently has even been excavated, right?
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Which is pretty crazy when you think like, well, okay,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: how many of them are also still underground? Like how
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: many do we know only exists because of ground penetrating
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: radar and all the other techniques?
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's wild. Like Gobekli Tepe, if all of
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: it was excavated as something like 50 times larger than
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Stonehenge and Stonehenge is obviously an incredibly famous site and
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: yet it's so much bigger and Like, to be clear,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: it is standard archaeological practice to not excavate too much
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: of a site.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: What are we looking at here?
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: That's Gobekli Tepe.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: And what are we looking at in terms of these grids?
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: I think maybe that's the kind of archaeological... Right.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: I'm not 100% sure.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: It seems like it, right? Because it seems like the
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: grids go on top of these circles, which doesn't make
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: any sense. So, obviously, they have to go very slowly.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: The risk of destroying some incredible find, some beautiful ancient
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: thing because you're using tractors or something like that is
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: too great.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: It is valid, but I would argue, and I've said
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: this before, is that Gobekli Tepe is a site that
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: has such important ramifications for our understanding of civilization and
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: the origins of civilization that it should receive special treatment, right?
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: Because it is the oldest site that looks like civilization.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: So I always think that maybe we should not, obviously
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: you want to be careful when you go in and
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: you want to follow correct archaeological procedure, but at the
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: same time, what if a relic, like equivalent to the
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Rosetta Stone, the one stone that we found that completely
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: translated Egyptian hieroglyphs and opened up ancient Egypt to our understanding,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: what if some kind of equivalent artifact is hiding in
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: the unexcavated 95% of Gobekli Tepe? That could be waiting
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: for us to find.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Have we talked about this.
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: Boar before, Joe?
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:53
  Speaker 5: I don't remember ever seeing it, but It's not new,
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: but it was also found at Gobekli Tepe.
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: It was painted.
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: I think some of the mouth was painted red.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: It's crazy looking.
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: It's pretty close to life-size.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: The whole thing is really fascinating because it's also, I
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: think it's the first evidence of 3D carving in stone too.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, raised relief I think is called. Or not a statue.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: What we're saying about that is like these boars and
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: snakes and all these different animals that are on these
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: incredible pillars, they're not carved into it. The stone is
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: carved around it, which is advanced. It takes sophisticated use
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: of tools. And an understanding of how to work stone
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: to be able to do something like that.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: And crucially, specialization, right? That's someone's job. They're not out
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: there gathering food. That's their job. That's how they spend
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: their time.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: And it's also, hey, how did you move those? Those
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: stones are huge.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: The biggest ones are like how many? I think most
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: of them are like 10 tons. But I think they
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: found one that hadn't been moved by the quarry that
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: was something like 50 tons. And obviously, they would have...
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: assumed that they would have had a method to move that,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: or else they wouldn't have carved it out.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, 50 tons is high in stubby little peckers.
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: It says clutching.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: Clutching their peckers. Yeah.
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Whatever you're into, bro. Must have been a weird world
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: back then. And then the real question is, is this
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: the oldest civilization, or is this the oldest reboot of
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: civilization that was destroyed by the Great Flood? And by
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: the younger Jairus impact and whatever the fuck could have
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: happened to whatever civilization previously existed. That's where things get
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: real squirrely. Yeah, well, exactly.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Because if that is a civilization, which I think it's
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: becoming clear that it is, and it doesn't really matter
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: how you define civilization. It's clearly incredibly sophisticated. Like, it's
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: a very sophisticated culture.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that word is a problem. Yeah, exactly.
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: Like, who cares?
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: It's clearly a very sophisticated culture.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: It's like when Fauci was talking about gain of function. Like, hey, fucker.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: You know what we're talking about. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: But.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that means that, you know, the timeline of civilization,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, has doubled from 6,000
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: years to 12,000 years. So then the question becomes, how
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: much further back does it go? Because clearly, Tashtapella, Gobekli Tepe,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: it's not the first thing these people built. They weren't
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: starting from scratch. They weren't just hunter-gatherers that thought, let's
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: try something new and build this. There's clearly a long
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: procedure up to that point. So how far back does
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: that go?
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And for people that don't know, we should probably explain
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: that One of the reasons why they're able to accurately
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: carbon test Gobekli Tepe is because– and this is where
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: it gets really weird. The dirt is uniform in that
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: it was intentionally covered. So these sites weren't covered just
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: over time like maybe the Sphinx was in Egypt. They
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: were covered intentionally and they were covered 11,600-ish years ago.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: So how old were they before they were covered?
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, of course.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's only the earliest date we have, but
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it's the date that they were constructed.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: And why were they covered?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there is debate over that, but that's
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: what Klaus Schmidt thought.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: What is the debate?
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Well, some people say it wasn't intentionally covered, and it
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: was just kind of like a landslide.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Like a crazy landslide that'll happen at once?
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Because, I mean, it's really hard to prove.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: What an amazing landslide that covers everything.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I would still lean
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: towards the original interpretation from the original archaeologist, Klaus Schmidt.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: And why did he think they covered it? I don't know.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Like a conquering civilization where like, fuck these people and
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: their beautiful pillars.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: No, I think he thought the people that built it
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: covered it.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I guess you can't tell, can you? And that's
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: the thing with so much of this stuff is that
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: no one knows. And especially the further back you get
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: in time, anyone that talks with any confidence around the past,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: and this is one of my main bugbears with archaeology. Like,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I love archaeology and I have a huge respect for
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: archaeologists and I think they do amazing work, but one
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: of my main bugbears is the confidence in which people
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: talk about the past and ruling out other possibilities, because
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, none of us know
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: what happened in the deep, deep past, especially when you
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: start getting back to these crazy timescales. It's all speculation.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter if you're a YouTuber like me
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: or if you're a professor, we're all just speculating based
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: on the very limited evidence that we have. And so
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: I don't like it when people say definitive things. I
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: always try and say, maybe this is the case or
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: maybe that's the case. We don't know. And I think
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: everyone should approach history with that mindset. And that's kind
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: of If I can get any message across to people,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: that is the message. Like, we don't know, and here's
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: a possibility, and here's a possibility, and here's the evidence
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: that we think is true, but, you know, it's... really
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: hard to tell.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: But it also does stand to reason that biology and
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: archaeology as they expand the timeline as biology has expanded
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: the timeline archaeology should probably tag along.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Well yeah that's what i mean about the fact that
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: the rug's kind of been pulled out from underneath.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Us yeah What on purpose means here? There's good reason
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: to think humans intentionally deposited at least some of the fill.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Enclosure D alone contained roughly 500 cubic meters of rubble
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: and cultural debris and particular items including broken anthropomorphic sculpture
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: heads appear to have been deliberately placed near pillars during refilling.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: But archaeologists do not have definitive evidence for the often
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: repeated popular claim that its builders intentionally buried the entire
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: site at once to hide it, preserve it, or mark
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: a single ritual closure. The mound is man-made in the
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: sense that it consists of accumulated archaeological deposits, but its
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: formation involved both human actions and natural sediment movement, ending
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: around 8,000 BCE. Yo. That's a long fucking time ago.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: I don't think people even really can wrap their head
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: around how long we're talking. You know, especially, that's the
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: other thing. One of the things that I loved about
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: your whole video series was the one where you were
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: talking about what would be left if there was a
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: human civilization 100,000 or more years ago. And that's not
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: unreasonable if this biology assessment is correct, is that there
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: have been humans far longer than we used to think.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: So that's the case. Because if we used to think
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: it was 50,000 years, I think when I was in
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: high school, they were saying the Homo sapiens were like 50,000
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: years old or maybe 100, right? And now the conventional
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: estimate is like, what, three?
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: So the oldest fossils we have of anatomically modern humans
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: are 315 to 360,000 years old. I mean, it's the
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: same fossil set from Jebel Aroud in Morocco and But
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: this obviously is really hard to date accurately, but it's
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: between 300 and 350,000.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: And then I think it's really important to note that
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: the fossil record is incredibly incomplete because most people don't
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: leave a fossil.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: It's so unlikely that you'd fossilize. It's something like one
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: in a million.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: So it's such a crazy metric to try to figure
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: out what the past is from these tiny scraps. It's
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: like trying to read a book. By a single shard
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: of a piece of paper with a half a sentence
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: in it. And you're like, what do you think this
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: book was about? Like, fuck. Exactly. There's not much evidence.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: That's the problem. But the evidence that they do find
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: is pushing the timeline way back. Way back. And that alone,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: you would think archaeology would go, well, hey, guys, in
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: light of this new evidence, maybe we should consider the
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: possibility that civilization is quite a bit older than we think.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: They are the same exact animal. What would take them 300,000
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: years to develop complex civilization and agriculture and all these
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: different things? Like why would it take so long? And
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: is it possible that given the– I mean the incredible
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: possibilities in terms of like what kind of natural disasters
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: took place, just asteroid impacts that we know, we find
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: them all over the earth. All over the earth, and
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: some of them are 20,000 years old, 50,000 years old.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: We find them everywhere. What kind of an impact would
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: that have had? What would be left of those civilizations?
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: And all those questions, again, guys like you are the
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: ones proposing them and putting them out there. And it's
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: a really good question, especially in light of what we
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: understand about humans biologically. Doesn't it make sense that these people,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: just as biologically, anatomically completely like us. Like, why would
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: it take them hundreds of thousands of years to figure
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: out a roof?
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. But I think we have clear evidence now
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: that what we call modern intelligence, behavioral modernity, goes back so, so,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: so much further than we think. Like, I would argue
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: back over a million years in light of a couple
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: of papers that have come out. the last 12 months.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: And what are these papers?
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, there's been two really significant papers, I think,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: since we last spoke. One of them, I think, has
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: really big ramifications for human intelligence. And that's a paper
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: that came out regarding the island of Sulawesi, which is
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: in Indonesia. And this is in relation to human seafaring.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: So Seafaring was always thought to be an exclusively sapien strait,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: exclusively modern human strait, because it's a really hard thing
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: to do, right? You need to be quite clever to
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: build a boat, to build something that's sophisticated enough to
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: be seaworthy, to get across ocean boundaries and to reach
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: isolated land masses. And we always thought that was only
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: sapiens until very recently. But a paper came out in
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: August last year. You actually sent it to me. You
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: sent me a post that was about stone tools that
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: was found. And I was like, that's interesting. I clicked
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: on the paper. And then I was like, oh, wow,
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: look where these stone tools were found. And it was really,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: really interesting because they were found on Sulawesi. And Sulawesi
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: is an island that crucially sits east of something called
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the Wallace Line, which is a biogeographic boundary, which means
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: that it has been an island and separated from the
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: mainland for tens of millions of years and separated by
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: deep ocean channels that are between, depending on the fluctuating
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: sea levels at the time, between 50 and 100 kilometers across.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: So it's always been an island. And yet in August, 2025,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: archeologists at a site called Callio found stone tools on Sulawesi.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: And that means that some type of human, probably not sapiens,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: but I guess you never know, some type of human
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: managed to cross that ocean boundary and reach Sulawesi. And
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: that's fascinating, but it's worth saying that it's not the
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: only piece of evidence in the region. There's also A
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: decade or so ago, we found stone tools on Flores,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: which is just below Sulawesi. It's another island and crucially, again,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: east of the Wallace line. So again, you have to
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: cross an ocean boundary to get to Flores. And they
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: found stone tools there that are 1.02 million years old.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: And I didn't even say the Sulawesi tools are 1.04
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: to 1.4 million years old. So over a million years ago,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: some type of human was crossing ocean boundaries to get
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: to these islands. And there's also Luzon, which is just
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: above Sulawesi, same region. And they found stone tools there,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: which are 700,000 years old. Now, the theory always was
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: that this was an accident. When we just had Flores,
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: the theory was that it was accidental drift. So, and
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: a couple of humans were swept out to sea and
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: somehow survived the stormy ocean and the tropical sun cling
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: to some driftwood and made it to Flores and somehow
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: survived and colonized the island. But now that we've got Flores,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Luzon and Sulawesi, three islands all in the same region,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: all separated by this ocean boundary. I think it's starting
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: to point less towards accident and more towards behavior, right?
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: More towards a deliberate sea crossing because to colonize, I
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: was doing some research because of these discoveries and there's
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: actually been a few papers from NASA on how many
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: humans you need to colonize an isolated landmass because NASA
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: were doing it for like, if you're going to Mars
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: or something, And you need a certain amount of humans
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: of breeding age to not have like genetic problems in
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: the population. So you need a certain amount of humans
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: of a breeding age to ensure viability, right? Because otherwise
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: you're going to inbreed and you're all going to die
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: out because of genetic issues. And they said it was
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: something like you need 160 people at least. And that
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: is with strict breeding controls and genetic testing. We can
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: probably assume they weren't doing genetic testing on themselves. And
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: so then the number is somewhere near 500. So what
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: are the chances that 500 individuals were all swept out
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: to sea at the same time, all survived the crossing
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: and all landed on an island and colonized it? That's
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: a huge amount of humans for an accident. Do you
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: know what I mean? And then three times in three
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: separate islands, all in the same region. At what point
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: does accident start looking like behavior? Do you know what
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: I mean?
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: Because.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: What are the chances of 500 individuals all being swept
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: out to sea, all surviving, all reaching these islands and
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: all colonizing in three separate occasions, all around about a
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: million years ago? Not good. It's not a high chance,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: is it? And I think if we apply Occam's razor
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: to it, which is the simplest explanation wins. I think
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: the simplest explanation is that these humans were intelligent enough
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: to build boats, right?
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: And that is a controversial opinion. That's not accepted. It's
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: accepted that the humans reached these islands. That's not controversial.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Humans were on these islands a million years ago.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: 700K. It's just not accepted that it was intentional.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: It's not accepted that they built boats.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Well, that seems silly.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: But I think it's... It.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Doesn't make any sense.
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: It's not 500 of them make it over by floating
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: and surviving.
• 39:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: What?
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: All at the same time.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Exactly. And this is what I mean about taking data
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: points from different kind of science.
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Because I'm looking into what NASA is saying about humans
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: colonizing somewhere. And I'm saying, well, look, 500 people or
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: more than 500 people of breeding age as well, not
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: just people, all reaching an island on three separate occasions,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: all in the same region. Are we sure this wasn't deliberate?
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: So I think that has huge ramifications for human intelligence
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: because that was always thought to be exclusively sapiens thing,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: building a boat, because that's really hard to build a boat.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: You have to have planning. You have to have foresight.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: You have to be good enough at carpentry to construct
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: something that's seaworthy. You have to.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Trial and error.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, trial and error. And you have to have the
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: imagination as well to dream about what's on the other
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: side of the horizon.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: And the bravery and the incredible reckless courage to go
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: for it and to go out there across the horizon
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: and reach an island.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: And possibly navigate through the stars. Like they knew how
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: to do that. Maybe.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: Otherwise, why would you set out?
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: Right. And how would you repeat it?
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you remember which way you went? Tower. It's
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: a fucking dude with a giant brow ridge, furry face
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: is telling you, I remember going this way. Like, are
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: you fucking sure? How are you doing? Are you using
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: the stars? Like, what are you doing?
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: But humans weren't even meant to have complex language by then.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: They weren't meant to be capable of this.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. We're seeing these things. There has to be
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: some sort of organization. If you're getting a group of
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: people to agree to get in the boat, if they
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: can't communicate with each other, that seems even more ridiculous.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: Because let's say at the minimum of 50 kilometers, how
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: long does it take you to row 50 kilometers? Seems
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: like it would be days.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: It would be tough, wouldn't it? And an ocean as well.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right. If you even survive, how long is it
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: going to take before you get across? I mean, maybe
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: they figured out when the stormy season was and they
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: time it for when it's not so stormy. But I mean,
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: how are they doing that? Do they have a calendar
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: a million years ago?
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Whatever they were doing, If it was deliberate, which I
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: think the evidence points towards, it's a clear sign of
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: what we call modern intelligence.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: And organization and most likely communication.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Which we always used to think only emerged 50,000 years ago.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: And so now, if it's over a million years old,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: you know, that's like a 20 times.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: And it could be 1.4. The Sulawesi tools are dated
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: to 1.04 to 1.4. So that's, I don't know, what's that,
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: like 25 times older than we think?
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: That's so funny, that 0.4. That's a lot.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: It's huge. It's absolutely gigantic. Hundreds of thousands of years. Yeah,
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: and this is what you were saying about, like, people
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: can't get their heads around the sheer enormity of these
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: timescales that we're talking about.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Like, it's so long. Yeah.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: It's so long.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Well, another weird one that's come up fairly recently that
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: I know you've talked about is the copper mining in
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: North America. That one blew me away. Just the volume
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: of copper that was removed.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they had a whole copper industry in North America 9,000
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: years ago, which is.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Just listen to that again. Say that one more time.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: A whole copper industry in North America 9,000 years ago.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: And that's the same as the earliest day anywhere else
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: in the world.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: And the volume... This is what's going to freak people out.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Tell them how much copper was removed.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know off the top of my head, but
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: it's a lot. And to be fair, there's lots of
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: natural copper. I think it's in the kind of northern
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: parts of the United States as it is now. I
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: don't know how much they removed off the top of
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: my head, but it is a lot of copper.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Like a commercial copper mine volume.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I said industry. Like it's big.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: It's so crazy. And I don't understand how they determined
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: the amount of copper that was removed. But if that
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: is correct... That seems to indicate that there was some
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: sort of sophisticated metallurgy going on in North America 9,000
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: years ago.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is as early as anywhere else in the world.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: And that completely flies in the face of what we
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: used to think about people in North America. And it's
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: interesting because what the evidence appears to show is that
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: they did this for a few thousand years, but then
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: they dropped it and they stopped doing it. Now, I
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: don't know what that suggests, but Either it suggests something
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: happened to them or they decided they didn't want to
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: do it anymore. But either way, it kind of goes
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: against this idea that we've always kind of assumed that
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: technology is like an escalator, right? We always assume that
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: technology is an escalator.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: 1.5 billion pounds of copper.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: What?
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: So wrap your head around this, folks. Archaeology and date
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: mining and copper tool use, but it generally cannot calculate
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: annual or century-specific production 9,500 years ago. One older broad
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: estimate puts a total archaic period extraction in the Lake
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: Superior region at up to about 1.5 billion pounds of copper,
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: roughly 680,000 metric tons. But that covers many millennia, not
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: the century 9,500 years ago. So that means that they
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: were doing it for thousands of years. They're saying it
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: covers many millennia.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they were doing it for, yeah, as it says,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: the peak between 7,000 and 5,000 years ago.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. That's crazy. So at least 9,500 years ago,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: they started doing this somewhere around there. And they did
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: it for thousands of years. They removed copper for thousands
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: of years.
• 44:41
  Speaker 5: A bunch of it was just sitting on the top.
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: They called it float copper, I think.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: Like that.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: That's probably how they first started finding it. And then
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: they probably started digging. Isn't it interesting how like precious,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: what we call precious metals, just they exist in weird deposits.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: It's like erratic. It's all over the place. Like, come
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: find me.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: And these people use this stuff for weapons. They use
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: this stuff for jewelry. They used it for all kinds
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: of things. Arrow points, I'm sure. They probably used it
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: for all sorts of things. They had to use it
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: for weapons, right?
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: Probably, yeah.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: I think they found, like, spear points and stuff.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe that makes sense.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: But then they dropped it, and then they just stopped
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: doing it. And we don't know why they did that,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: but as I was saying.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow, look, there's the copperhead arrow.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: It goes against this idea that we have that technology
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: is like an escalator, and you just take one level
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: of technology and you keep going up. It shows that
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: people can invent something or discover something and then stop
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: doing it and forget about it. And I think that
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: has implications for how we look at prehistory as a whole,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: because it suggests that people... You know, rather than just
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: going straight line this linear path upwards, we can go
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: up and down and forget things and rediscover things.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Right. And that's what the– this is the alternative theory
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: is that we're a reinvention of civilization currently and that
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: we're the most advanced reinvention that we're aware of. But
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that there hasn't been some sort of
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: a civilization before us that perhaps reached heights where we
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: are or greater in a completely different direction. And I
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: think when you look at some of the stone structures
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: that exist, those are the best evidence because they're so perplexing.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: The stones in Lebanon, what are they called? The Trilithon stones? Yeah, Baalbek, yeah. Yeah.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Those are crazy. Like what happened there?
• 46:31
  Speaker 6: How?
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: What? How'd you get them up there?
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: It's weird because they're attributed to the Romans, right? But
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: there's no Roman records of them doing that. And that's
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: not particularly weird in itself until you realize that it's
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: a bigger engineering project than anything the Romans did anywhere.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, the Colosseum is obviously an incredible thing, but
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: the blocks aren't as big as these blocks at Baalbek.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: And yeah, they don't mention it anywhere. And you'd think that,
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: you know, a civilization that documented as much the Romans
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: would at least mention their biggest engineering project somewhere, you know?
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: And I mean, that doesn't mean it wasn't the Romans,
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: but it's just a weird thing.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: It's very weird. It's very weird. And it's also weird
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: that like many places, The structures that are on top
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: of it are not as sophisticated, not as difficult to do.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: That's how it is over and over and over again.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: That's Sacsayhuaman. That's a lot of these places. You see
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: the base, the oldest stuff. It seems like they find
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: stuff and they build on top of stuff that was
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: already there. And then you're dealing with thousands and thousands
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: of years of civilization where people don't even remember who
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: built it. You know, like the gods. The gods put
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: these rocks here.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: It happens all over the world.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: People build on old sites because often the sites are
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: the best site in the region because that's why someone's
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: built there originally. So it makes sense to reuse them.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that the latest civilization that used
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: it was the first. I mean, it could be, but
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: it also doesn't mean that they are definitively. But often
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: that's how we take it. And, yeah, that's not necessarily
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: the best way of looking at them.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: I think. I think what you said earlier is really
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: important that– We can't possibly know. And to make these
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: definitive statements about things where you just don't have enough evidence,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: you don't have enough facts, you can't really say definitively
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: we know. And that drives experts crazy because they don't
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: like to do that. They don't like to let that go,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: especially humans, especially men. They love the ego that comes
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: with being the one who has the information, the expert opinion.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: That appeal to authority. That I'm the one who could
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: tell you, oh, this is nonsense. These Michael Buttons on
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: YouTube with their bullshit, their archaeological bullshit. They love doing that.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: But no one's listening to them. That's what's cute. Yeah.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: And, yeah, I mean, I'm grateful that a lot of
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: people listen to me.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Like I said, you're really good at it. And it
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: is undeniably just based on what we've said so far.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: This is undeniably strange. It's undeniably weird and it's undeniably,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: at least to me and you, interesting. And that's why
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: the subject will– hopefully it will continue the pathway that
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: it's on because there's so many people like you now
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: that are looking at this stuff and they're very credible people,
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: very objective. The Ben Van Kirkwood. of the world, and
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Corsetti, all these people that are looking at this
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: stuff and go, hey, there's a lot going on here, people.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: There's a lot.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's interesting that the more we uncover,
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: the more we discover, the more new evidence that comes out.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: I think what we're starting to realize is that the
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: limits on our own knowledge... vastly bigger than we ever
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: used to think. We used to think we kind of
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: had it figured out, and this is what I'm talking
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: about with those three questions I mentioned at the start.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: We used to think we had the answer to these
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: big questions, but with each new discovery, we're starting to
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: realize just how vast the unknown is. I think there's
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: two subjects where this kind of applies. I think the
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: first is physics, and obviously I'm not smart enough or
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: clever enough to talk about physics in any meaningful capacity,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: but I think it's fair to say that the more
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: we learn about the nature of reality and the universe,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: the more we realize just how big it is and
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: how crazy it is and how little we understand about
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: our place in it. And I think the other subject
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: is history. I think the more we learn about history,
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: the more we realize how huge the amount of time
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: humans have been on this planet is, how long a
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: mind like ours has been on this planet, how long
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: humans that are very similar to us have been on
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: this planet is. And I think it's a vital thing
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: because it's, physics is kind of the question of where
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: are we, but History is kind of the question of
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: who are we and where did we come from? And
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: that's why I'm so interested in it, because it's a
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: fundamental question to civilization and to who we are. And
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: I think it's really important. And so that's why I
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: talk about this stuff.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And also it's cool.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: It's very cool. It's so fascinating. I love it. And
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: I know you love it, too. And it's great.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: Well, it's it's it's so weird. You know, it's so
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: it's so weird to think, like, what was it like
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of years ago? What did they know?
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Where did they learn it? And are these stories, these
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: flood myths that exist in all these ancient cultures, is
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: this an echo of a historical record of people trying
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: to keep track of this event that took place that
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: crushed us and brought us down to a few thousand
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: people all over the world and we had to rebuild?
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: And that's also when you go back thousands of years
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: in the conventional timeline. People were so barbaric. They were
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: so horrible just a few thousand years ago. If they
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: were capable 5,000 years ago of building ancient Egypt, probably
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: earlier than that. But if, why were they so brutal 2,000
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: years ago? Because I think those are the people that survived.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: I think the people that survived were probably fucking terrible. Yeah.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: Because they had to be. You know, if there's only like,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: we know that like the Toba volcano, which was like,
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: is that Indonesia 70,000 years ago got us down to
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: what just a few thousand people globally yeah imagine that
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: life imagine what you had to do to stay alive
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: imagine even the thought of raising children in a world
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: where there's only 7,000 people left and limited amounts of
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: food and you know most of the population of earth
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: is dead what It's like, this is crazy.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: We've been through some crazy things as a species.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You did it. Didn't you do a video of
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: there's some evidence that at some point in history, most
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: people were killed off in war? Yes.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: That is related to what you were just saying about.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: So just after the agricultural revolution, the theory is that
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: because humans then had like property. And we're kind of
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: defending things that people got a lot more violent. And
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence that around 6,000 years ago,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: basically all the men died. There's like evidence that 95%
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: of male bloodlines were removed. And we can see this
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: from the Y chromosome in genetics. And there's a massive
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: drop off of the diversity, the genetic diversity in male bloodlines.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: And something like 95% went. And no one quite knows
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: why this is, but we see lots of mass graves
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: around this time and violent graves and all these people
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: were killing each other. And it might not have been that,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: but it's weird that it only affected men, because if
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: it was a natural disaster, it would, you know, it
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be specific to either gender, but it's only men.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: So some people think it's like a big amount of
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: violence and that no one really knows, but it's really interesting.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Well, doesn't it make sense, though? I mean, think, if
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: you go from hunter and gathering where you're constantly moving,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: nomadic tribes, bunch of people that stick together, you're in
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: tents or whatever, and then all of a sudden you're
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: stationary and you've developed agriculture and you stay put. And
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: then there's hunter-gatherer tribes that still exist because guess what?
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: They still exist today. So it's not like it was
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: a uniform discovery of agriculture. Everybody adopted it and there
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: was no more hunter-gatherer tribes and there's no more tribes
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: of wandering marauders.
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: So there's still these tribes of wandering marauders. And so
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: now you have to defend this spot because you're stuck
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: there because you're dumbass built a house. Like the Mongols
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: used to make fun of people that lived in houses.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: They thought they were fools and they lived in felt tents, period.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: That's how you're supposed to live. You keep moving. And
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: this idea of staying put, like, look at these idiots. Like,
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: we're just going to go sack their city. Like, they
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: really had no respect for people that were so stupid
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: that they stuck themselves behind walls. Like, you assholes can't
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: even run away. We're going to launch lit human beings
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: on fire with catapults onto your thatched roofs and set
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: everything ablaze. You know, it turns out people are really
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: good at starting fires when you light them on fire
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: because we're fatty. Mongols figured out a lot of cute stuff. But,
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: you know, it makes sense that that's when war would
• 55:08
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• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, once we settle down and once we owned... You
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: stay put.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: You become a target.
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: And you have something to defend, be it livestock or
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: crops or houses, as you say. And so, yeah, there's
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: quite a lot of evidence that violence did increase massively
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: as we entered the kind of agricultural age that we're
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: still in. So that is interesting.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: It's very interesting. And it also is logical. It's a
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: logical progression of how people would behave given the fact
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: that now all of a sudden they have resources that
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: they've accumulated. They have a very specific location. They have
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: to defend that location. That's when people figure out walls
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: and that's a bigger, you know, whatever. The weird thing
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: is the Great Wall of China. Like the arrow turrets
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: are facing the wrong way.
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: Really? Yeah.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of it. A lot of the Great Wall,
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: the arrows... Are facing inward.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: To try and keep people in rather than out?
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: Or try to keep people from China.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Escaping.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: Going to wherever, whatever's on the other side. It might
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: have been some sections of it weren't constructed by the
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: people that we think were constructed it. You ever seen that?
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: No, I've never seen that.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: It's very weird. Like people have pondered, like why are
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: the arrow? Because there's these slots where they can be
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: protected but shoot arrows through. But they're facing towards China.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: They're not like China defending the wall against the Huns.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: It's weird. That is strange.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: That is strange.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: See if you can find some of that.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: I'm looking it up.
• 57:50
  Speaker 5: It's not a really great answer in this.
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: So part of it is and part of it isn't.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: Mostly the Great Wall's defensive features face north outward towards
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: the steppe, the usual direction of major raids and invasions,
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: but many surviving sections have arrow slits and parapets facing
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: both north and south, including seemingly inward towards China. Why
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: face inward? Defense after a breach. If attackers crossed the
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: wall or captured a tower, so they prepared to be invaded? Hmm.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: Chinese garrisons needed to shoot and counterattack from the south
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: side as well. Control of movement both ways. The wall
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: was a network of forts, gates, signals, roads, not just
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: a one-sided barrier. Also regulated border crossings, trade, and movement.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: It is crazy that they've invented a wall that you
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: could see from space. I know, it's wild.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: It's like one of the biggest engineering projects ever.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: Like, how long is that? Is it like 1,000 miles
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: or something crazy?
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: I have no idea, but it's big.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: How long is the Great Wall of China? Take a guess.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: I say 1,000 miles. It's probably more.
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: Easily.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: China is so big in itself and the fact that
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: it's the whole, like.
• 58:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: What do you think, Jamie? Take a guess.
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: 6,000 kilometers.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: 6,000?
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: Jesus, Jamie. Wow.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: You would be really good on The Price is Right. Oh,
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: my God. 21,000 kilometers. Holy shit.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: 13,171 miles.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: Motherfucker, that's crazy. Have you ever been there? No. I've
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: been there. It's crazy.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: It's amazing. It's so beautiful. The whole region around there,
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it's really long.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: The famous continuous-looking Ming-era wall that most visitors picture is
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: much shorter, still 8,850 kilometers. When associated structures and natural
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: barriers are included, UNESCO describes the overall Great Wall complex
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: as more than 20,000 kilometers long. So at the very least,
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: the part that you visit The Ming era wall, 8,850 kilometers,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: which is fucking wild. That is so much wall. Yeah. Like,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: what were they doing? So it was built over 2,000
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: years from early walls in the 5th to 3rd centuries
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: BCE through major work in the Ming dynasty, which ended
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: in 1644. Have you ever seen some of the stuff
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: that Cassie Coppersmith did? has uh talked about in regards
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: to uh ancient technology evidence from china.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: Not specifically her stuff but there's lots of weird lots
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: of weird things in ancient china.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah weird stuff like jade artifacts that seem to be
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: machined that don't make any sense that are like super
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: old and that seem to be artifacts that were passed
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: down from generation to generation and the thousands of years ago,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: the civilization that was in possession of them, their current
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: ability to make artifacts was much cruder. So it seems
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: like this was older stuff that they had somehow or
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: another acquired.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: And they lost their knowledge of... Like.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: Wafer-thin jade, highly polished, seemed to be machined, like weird stuff.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen that specifically, but yeah, that's interesting. I
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: don't know about that.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. it seems like a really clear pattern that exists everywhere,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: that there was something like these ancient vases that they
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: find in Egypt, that they find these in these old sites,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: and that these things that were carved out of diorite,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: which is insanely hard stone, and carved to, you know,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: within less than a human hair of variance, not only that,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: If it was on a lathe, how do you account
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: for the fact that it has these handles on the side?
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: Like how the fuck did they do this? And this
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: was all stuff that was like really, really old by
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: the time these people had it. And that these people,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: their current state of pottery and sculpture is much cruder
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: than this stuff. So it seems like these are like
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: really old things that are artifacts of a time where
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: things were more sophisticated. So it's more evidence of this.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: Up and down nature of technology. Up and down nature. Yeah,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's logical, right, that people learn things, discover things,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: excel at them, and then later people forget them.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: Of course, especially when you take into consideration natural disasters.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: Natural disasters, wars, things along those lines. You know, like Baghdad,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: before the Mongols got there, was like the center of
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: science in the world.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: The Arabs, yeah, they were incredible at science.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: And then.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: It's just the natural cycle of civilizations. And we see
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: that throughout recorded history. So why would it not be
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: the case for human beings in the much, much, much, much,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: much larger period of time, which is prehistory? But it's
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: not just thing is, it's not just like natural disasters
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: and things. And obviously that plays a part, but it's
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: also just the sheer nature of preservation, right? Such a
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: long amount of time that we've been around human beings
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: on this planet. It's just almost impossible for things to
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: survive when we talk about these 100,000 years, 200,000 years.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: It's so hard for things to survive that long.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: Any objects, any things that would be left over, like,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure you've seen those AI depictions of
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: what New York City would look like in just 1,000 years.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: It's like nothing. Everything's crumbling, gone.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: It's mental.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: No buildings, no glass. Everything gets absorbed in the earth.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: You've got a jungle where Manhattan is. And maybe you
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: would stumble upon a piece of metal one day.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: But even then, like, I mean, I've done quite a
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: lot of research on material degradation and almost all our
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: modern materials other than stone are gone in a few millennia.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: And a few millennia is a long time, but not
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: compared to these timescales that we're talking about.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: No, if these timescales are accurate in terms of the
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: human brain, in terms of the ability to logically like
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: view the world, invent things, creativity, if they possess this 300,000
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: years ago Like, why wouldn't they have figured a lot
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: of this stuff out?
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: They definitely did. That's the thing. Like, the seafaring thing
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: over 1 million years ago, okay, you can debate it.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: It could have been an accident, I suppose. I don't
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: think it is, but you can debate it. But I
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: think that we have completely undisputable evidence that human beings
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: were this intelligent 500,000 years ago with the Colombo structure,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: which we spoke about a lot last time. But that
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: is undeniable evidence that some kind of human was unbelievably smart.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: 500 or 476,000 years ago?
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was building houses.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Or building something.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: Some sort of structure.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Whatever that is requires incredible levels of intelligence. It is
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: clear evidence of what we define as modern behavior.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Right, and it probably wasn't a one-off.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: Definitely not.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: And so this is what you found. So then it means,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: were they teaching each other? So, okay. So if they
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: were teaching each other, what kind of language did they have?
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: What kind of concepts could they grasp?
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: You're not doing that without abstract thinking without symbolic intelligence.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: Right. And how far did it go? Because it's very
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: rare that we find a piece of wood from that
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: long ago that we can carbon date and that we
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: can test. So how much do we not find? Most
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: of it?
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: Almost all of it. Because the chances of that surviving
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: is so unbelievably unlikely.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: I'm a moron, but I had a thought. My thought
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: was if... AI can get so intelligent that it can
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: do an accurate account of all of the objects on earth,
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: all of the people on earth, all of the things
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: on earth, essentially every molecule that exists on earth, and
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: then extrapolate back to how they got in that position
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: in the first place, whether through natural ore deposits, natural disasters, volcanoes,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: all these different things like I wonder what kind of
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: a version of a timeline we would be able to
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: construct with like a super advanced artificial intelligence. I wonder
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: if it's possible to get a framework that is much
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: more definitive than what we're looking at now. I don't
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: know if it's possible. I mean, you'd have to have
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: enough technology that you would be able to literally like
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: scan the entire outer crust of the earth, which seems
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: daunting today, but But ground penetrating radar seemed ridiculous 500
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: years ago, right? So as we continue to expand, I mean,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: AI is solving math equations that have perplexed mathematicians for
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: 50 years. They're solving it like that. So this is
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: a new thing. It's a very, very rapidly emerging thing.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: I wonder what kind of a version, what kind of
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 2: a map of history, at least in terms of like,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: Rough timelines of things we'll be able to get.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: That's the great hope for archaeology, right? Is that modern
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: technology allows us to discover things that we previously would
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: not have been able to discover. And as you say,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: LIDAR is the current example of that. But if you
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: just extrapolate forward, what else could we possibly use to
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: discover things that we haven't?
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Of course, something like that will emerge. Because nobody even
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: considered LIDAR. Again, 500 years ago, what are you talking about?
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: 500 years from now, who the fuck knows? Who knows?
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: We literally can't imagine what kind of breakthroughs are available.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: That's the hope. But again, I think part of what
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: makes me think that perhaps we're not going to discover
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: stuff is this preservation problem because so much of it
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: is just gone. I mean, I guess if like what
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: you say, if we can like somehow extrapolate.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: Or time machines.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: They could figure out a time machine that'll throw the
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: whole monkey wrench. right into the gears.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that whatever happens, our current understanding of history, that's,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: that cannot be the kind of end point that what
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: we currently think about history is, is there's no way
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: that we've like reached.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: No, there's no way we're done.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: And that's why it frustrates me so much when people
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: are so definitive about it, because it's like, you really
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: think that we're not going to, because I mean, that's
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: the science is always advancing in every single field all
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: the time. And we, We're never at the point where
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: we've discovered everything. And yet there's always people in every
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: period of history that think this is the kind of
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: upper limit.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: What would be around from 300,000 years ago? Other than
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: what we've found so far, stone tools, shit like that,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: like that'll would all be gone.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing. Everything would be gone unless it's
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: like incredibly unlikely preservation, like the Colombo structure, like incredibly
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: unlikely for it to happen. But I mean, there's could
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: be other things like that out there and there almost
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: certainly is, but yeah. Most things will be gone. That's
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: what's exciting.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: It's like, God, you don't want to dig up the
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: whole world, but you kind of do.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 4: It's not that old, but this is a jade.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: Sword.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 5: Sorry, the handle's jade. The sword would have been probably metal.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 5: That's why the metal's all fucked up, but the handle's not.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 5: So anything with cool rocks or crystals or diamonds.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: Right, because the handle is kind of all that's left.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: The sword is... A rotten piece of shit.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: There's a few other old, let's.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: See. Yeah, that's the ones, these disks are really weird.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 5: 3000 BC to 2000 BC.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: But they have, I was just doing the research.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 5: Up until the Ming Dynasty, I think it was like 1660,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 5: they have a book someone wrote about how they were
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 5: doing this.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 4: But that's in 1600.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: What did they do?
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 4: I mean, various things.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: In 1600. Yeah. But some of these are 3,000 years
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: older than that, which is weird.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 4: Shade artifacts.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 4: This is the cooler shit, though. Nephrite.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: Ooh.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 5: But the description on how they did this, I'm almost not.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 4: I have.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 5: To take it as they say it, but the description
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 5: on how they did it was like they would put
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 5: abrasives on string and slowly wear away the jade.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: How did they do these three-dimensional little carvings?
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it says like they would put, they'd get this
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 5: slurry of water and tiny abrasives.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: That kind of makes sense. That one that you just showed,
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: how old is that one?
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 4: I don't even know what it is.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: That's fucking weird. It says, how did ancient Chinese carve,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: what's the word?
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 4: That's the question I asked.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: Without metal tools?
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 4: This is the link, I think.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: What is that image? That's crazy, man. What's that from?
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: Where's that from?
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 4: Carving.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: What year is that? Oh, that's a modern master. Okay,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: that makes sense. That makes sense. Because I was like,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: how could you do that? That's like the flower petals
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: and everything like that. That seems like you need metal tools. Oh,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: so this is just an article on the evolution of
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: Chinese jade carving.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that is.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is a modern. Okay, that's why it's confusing.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: That's older.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: A griffin.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 4: Obviously older. Some of these are drilled.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 5: Like these little holes, if you look and zoom in
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 5: real close, you can see evidence of drills.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 4: But that's not, you know.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: You could have hand drills. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: could have harder stone that you've figured out how to
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: work into a position. You could have sand. And there's
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: a bunch of things they could use. Pretty wild.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 4: Something like this. I mean, it's very crude.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, all that is like you could attribute that
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: to ingenuity and, you know, craftsmen with years of learning
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: how to work these different things. It's when you get
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: to large stuff that you're like, OK, how'd you get
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: these stones from Aswan? How'd you how'd you get a
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: 50 ton block of granite and move it through the
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: mountains with no roads? Help me out.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: They rolled it all apparently.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: How'd you get hundreds of them? Thousands of them? Millions
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: of them? How'd you do it? It's too wild. Yeah,
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: it is very wild. And like some of these things,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: I'll send you the Cassie Coppersmith episode that I did
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: with her. Because some of the stuff is like, it's
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: very confusing. Because the timeline's pretty clear that this is
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: older stuff. And the older stuff is more complex, more
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: difficult to create. And seems to indicate the use of machinery.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: You know, one of the things she pointed out was
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: this statue of a Buddha is that in India where
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: the guy achieved enlightenment by standing still and it's how
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: tall was it is it 90 feet tall the largest
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: individual standing statue thousands of years old looks like it's
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: machined like really weird like really weird statue there's so
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: much weird stuff in India how did they get it
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: there Did you guys, did you move it there? Or
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: was it a stone that you said, hmm, wouldn't it
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: be dope if we just, yeah, look at that fucker
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: with a big giant hog. But, I mean, it's really detailed.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: It's like, see if you can find a good image
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: of it, young Jimmy. There's some.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 4: I have her photos still on my computer.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's really wild. And she said you see it
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: from a long way away. Somebody put their watermark right
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: over his dong. How rude. They knew you were going
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: to be looking right there.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: Me?
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 4: No, everybody.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: Humans.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: There's also like the Kaliasa temple. I think the one
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: where they carve right down somehow. Hammer and chisel, apparently.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: Who knows? It's incredible sophistication.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: That's the one where an army went to try to
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: destroy it. And they tried for years and they gave up.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 5: Really? Yeah.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that. They barely put a fucking dent
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: in it. They scratched a few things up. But they
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: worked on it for years to try to destroy it.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 5: Why?
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: Why? Because some new guy came along and said, fuck
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: these people in the temple.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this isn't my, like, religion. This doesn't suit my story.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: Like what the Taliban did to those ancient Buddhists.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they blew them up.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, there's over a thousand years old and
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: they're like, no.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: An ISIS to Palmyra.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: Sad, man.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: I know. It's really sad. And if that's human inclination
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: to do that kind of stuff, like, how long have
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: we been doing that? Well, yeah. Probably always. How much
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: stuff is not around anymore because some asshole came along
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: and wanted it removed?
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it doesn't suit your narrative.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: Because everyone's always building a story. Humans have always done that,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: built a story around to legitimize power and rule. And
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: if it doesn't suit your story, you destroy it. And then, yeah.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: Would I be able to have some of that coffee?
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: Hell yeah, dog. Get on in there.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I've got to wake myself up.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're jet lagged. Trip across the pond.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: Here he is. This is what it looks like. Isn't
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: that wild, dude?
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: That's incredible.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: What's the, um, date on this, the conventional date? Do
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: we know?
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: That's a good question. They're going to have to carbon
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: date his dong.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: We don't know, but I'm sure it's known.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: Uh, there's a guess, right? Like what is the guess
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: of the timeline? Whatever it is, it's very perplexing. It's
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: a 57 feet tall monolithic statue of Lord Bahubali, uh, Okay,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: so 983 CE. That's what they believe.
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 4: That's AD, yeah.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, AD, current era. Regard as the tallest Jain statue
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: until 2016. Construction of the statue is commissioned by the
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: Ganga dynasty minister. Okay, so how? How did you make that?
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: Where'd you get it? How'd you get it there? You
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: did that, what? You did that over a thousand years ago?
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: And how do we know that that's the timeline? I mean,
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: it's weird. It's weird because it looks machined. When you
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: look at it, go back to some of the images, please.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: When you look at the detail of the fingers and
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: the toes and the uniformity of the face, it's fucking weird, man.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: It's like these people had a lot of fucking resources.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: Look at the size of that dude standing next to it. Like,
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: for real, how do you get that? If that's not
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: a big, giant, contiguous block that was sitting there, what
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: is it made out of?
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: Granite, I think.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: So that's not just a giant, perfect slab of granite
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: that happens to be roughly in the shape of a guy.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: And you're like, wouldn't that be dope if we made
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: a dude out of that with a giant dong and
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: just had him just staring over our kingdom?
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: But we don't do that anymore. That's what's weird. No
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: one's building things like this anymore.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: Certainly not out of stone.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 5: No.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because we like to make money and it takes
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: too much time to do a fucking pyramid when you
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: can make a nice skyscraper in just a couple of
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: years and put a big Trump on the roof.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: No surviving technical manual records records rather the exact construction procedure.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: Archaeological and art historical understanding is that the artisans shaped
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: the statue in situ, removing stone around the intended figure.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: roughing out the body, then refining the face, limbs, hair,
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: and distinctive vines, climbing the legs. Imagine if you fucked
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: that up. This approach avoided the near impossible task of quarrying, transporting,
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: and raising a 17 meter finished sculpture onto a hill. Yeah.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: So if they moved it, if there was definitive proof
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: that it was moved there, then there's another monkey wrench
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: gets thrown into the whole thing. And then you have
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: to go, okay, how? But it does make much more
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: sense if you just carved it out. But also like,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: How long would that take? What kind of tools are
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: we talking about? What kind of shitty-ass tools do people
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: have at 900 CE?
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 4: Well, then here's the rest of the stuff they did
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 4: in India.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: They did weird stuff in India where they just carved
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: stuff right out of the stone. Like what? What was
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: the motivation to build these temples, just carve them right
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: out of volcanic stone?
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: It's insane.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: Crazy.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: So detailed as well.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: Insanely detailed. And also, some of the sculptures are three-dimensional. Like,
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: how did you get behind them and carve that out?
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: And how did you make all these, like, weird things?
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: Have you ever seen some of them where they go
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: over it with a light and you can see how
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: three-dimensional it is? Yeah, and the Barabar Caves, do you
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: know about them? Also in India, where there's, like, completely
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: mirror-polished surfaces. And yet the conventional explanation for that is
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: that they were just shelters. Right.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: But why are they so precise? They're, like, completely precise.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: and they've got this weird mirror polishing.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: You don't need that if you're just building a shelter.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: And how about those pillars that look like they were
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: cut on lathes? Yeah. Like what? How did you? What's
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: going on guys? I know. What did you? We're missing
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: so much. We're missing so many details about the past.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: It's so frustrating if you're really interested in it because
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: it's like, how much do we know versus how much
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: are we just assuming?
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing we're assuming so much. And that's
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: why it bugs me when it's presented as fact or
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: presented as we have all the answers because we clearly don't.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What are the other papers that have come out
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: that have been.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: So there was the paper about the one million year
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: old skull, human skull that was found in China last year.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: And this is super interesting because this is a human
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: with a modern size brain, but that was found a
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: million years ago. And so again, that has implications for
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: what was really going on a million years ago. And
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: if you link that to the, what I would argue
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: is modern behavior with the seafaring in Southeast Asia, then
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: you have a million year old skull found in China,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: in Northeast Asia. You know, you put those two things
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: together and you suddenly got human beings with modern brains
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: doing modern things a million years ago. And I think
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: it's fascinating. So, I mean, the paper came out, uh,
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: I think in October last year and what they did
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: was they took, there are these fossils from a place
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: called Yongshan in China. Uh, and they were discovered actually
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: in the 1990s. I think it was 1989 and 1990.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: There's two skulls, Yongshan one and Yongshan two. Um, but
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: they were badly deformed. Yeah, there you go, Jamie, right
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: on cue. Um, badly, badly deformed. And They were always
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: thought to be homo erectus because of where they were found, China,
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: and how old they were, over a million years old,
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: because that was the only type of human that should
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: have been in China or in that area at that time,
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: at that age. They were always assumed to be homo erectus,
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: but a few researchers from a university in China, along
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: with the Natural History Museum in London, a professor named
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: Professor Chris Stringer, they applied modern reconstruction techniques to Yongxiang II,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: the second skull, And so they used something called CT
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: scanning to reconstruct it. And what they discovered was that
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: they think it's actually a Homo longi skull, which is
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: this part of the same clad as Denisovan, Denisovan. And
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: why that's important is that Denisovan is kind of like
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: a cyst.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: How do you say it? Do you say Denisovan or Denisovan?
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I say Denisovan, but I keep hearing Denisovan.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to change it. Yeah.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: All the scientists say Denisovan, but the cave is Denisovan cave.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: So it should be Denisovan, you would think.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: Fuck the scientists.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Denisovan, Denisovan, whatever. Either way, these scientists
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: think this skull is Homo longi, which is the clad
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: of Denisovan, which is crucially a sister species to Neanderthal
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: and us, sapiens. Which means that if this skull is
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: a million years old, and if it is Homo longi,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: that means that the divergence of our species must have
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: happened before them. So when humans split into Neanderthal, Denisovan,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: and Homo sapien... If this human was already walking around
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: 1 million years ago, that means that whatever became us
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: had already diverged at that point. So we were already
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: a distinct species, Homo sapiens, 1 million years ago, which
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: is a staggeringly long amount of time and so much
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: older than what we thought before. We used to think
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: this was around 500,000 years ago. So it's like a 400,000
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: or more than that jump from what we thought before.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: Have you heard the theory about Neanderthals that they believe
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: that Neanderthals were not just a separate group of human,
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: but were actually created by humans interbreeding with other ancient primates?
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: How do you mean?
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: So instead of Neanderthals existing previously, that Homo sapiens predate Neanderthals,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: and that Homo sapiens breeding with some other ancient primate,
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: some other one of these, created Neanderthals. Maybe.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: I haven't heard that. I don't know.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if it's right. I read it
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: and I was like, what? I was like, okay, this
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: is a crazy theory. And it's, you know, because the
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: thought is that Neanderthals were bred out with, you know,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: that there was interbreeding between humans and Neanderthals. But that
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: might have actually like predated Neanderthals themselves. Like it might
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: be the cause of Neanderthals is that humans, Homo sapiens
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: bred with something else.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: Well, we definitely bred with Neanderthals. And probably Denisovans and
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: Neanderthals and Denisovans bred together as well. We're all so similar.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: The fact that we can have kids together is incredible.
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: And they actually recently found evidence of humans and as
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: in sapiens and Neanderthals actually coexisting for a long, long
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: time in the same place and like living in the
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: same place. And because you could always argue before that
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: perhaps it was, you know, non-consensual breeding between like a
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: Neanderthal male, a sapien woman. But now we have evidence
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: that we did live like alongside each other cooperatively. I
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: can't remember where the site is, but. That was found recently. So, yeah,
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: that's interesting as well.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: See if you can find whatever the hell I found
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: about Neanderthals possibly a result of humans breeding with other primates.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: With other primates?
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, not other humans. We're not created by modern humans.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: They're a closely related extinct branch of the human family.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: This is a very recent proposal.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 4: I might have asked the question, too, in a different way.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: How'd you ask it?
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 4: I said, were the Neanderthals created by humans, which isn't.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: Really what you said. No. See if you search, is there,
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: put this in, is there a theory that Neanderthals were
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: a result of human, maybe you see Homo sapiens? Homo sapiens.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: Homo sapiens. Homo sapiens breeding with other primates. I guess
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: you wouldn't say primates, though, because that's a monkey. Other homos.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: Other homos. Other ancient humans. Write that, ancient humans. Ancient
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: human species. Let's see what perplexity has to say about this.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: I wish I'd saved that. Because it was really interesting.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: It says, no, not as the main scientific explanation. That's,
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: but I don't mean the main scientific explanation. I'm saying,
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: is there a theory? I want to know if there's
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: a theory.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 5: Well, then that has to now, I mean, that's about
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 5: how we're using this actual thing is I'm using it
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 5: in a general way.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: Right. But not as the main scientific explanation.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. But is there a theory? Has anyone theorized that
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: this is possible? Ask that. Theorized that this is possible.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 4: It's going to have to crawl.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 5: If it's new, it's going to have to crawl the
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 5: websites to.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 4: Find that information.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: I want it to crawl.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 4: I know. We can't make it crawl.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: Crawl, bitch.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: They're going to take over, man.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: Here it goes. Researchers have proposed hybridization-based ideas, but generally
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: not the exact claim that Neanderthals originally formed from Homo
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: sapiens plus another species. What has been proposed? Paleontologists propose
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: that particularly late Neanderthal or early modern human fossils might
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: be Neanderthal-Homo sapien hybrids or descendants of populations that mix repeatedly. No,
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: this is not quite what I'm saying. This is what's
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: fucked up when you watch too many videos and you
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: read too many articles and you don't save them. This
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: was quite a few months ago, too.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 4: Let me ask.
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: Another one. The Denisovan thing is weird because there's recent proposals.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: I think this is a paper I sent you in
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 2: a podcast where they're discussing this paper that as of August,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: like this month, there's some speculation about the height of
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: the Denisovans and that they think they might have been
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: much larger than Homo sapiens at the time.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they found a bone. They found a bone, a
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: thigh bone, I think, under the sea and suggest the Denisovans.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: And everything we found about Denisovans is that they were
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: bigger than us. So the teeth we found, we haven't
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: got much from them, but the tooth is bigger. The
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: jawbone is bigger. The dragon man skull, which has been
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: classified as very similar to Denisovan, is bigger. And then
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: they found this thigh bone that suggests that they were
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: considerably over six foot tall. Now, obviously, that's not like
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: a massive giant, but compared to... You know, the average
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: height of a human today is something like, a male
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: human is something like 5'8 or 5'9. And so a
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: Denisovan being over six foot is like quite a considerable
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: jump from that. So it's not like a mythical giant,
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: but it's still bigger than you'd expect an ancient human
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: to be.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: And it's also, we're going with a limited amount of fossils.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: So limited, so limited.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: So just from what we know, they existed with larger skulls.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: recent genetic research confirms that modern humans, Homo sapiens, and
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: Neanderthals repeatedly interbred a course of period spanning roughly 200,000
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: to 250,000 years ago. While it's long believed that interbreeding
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: occurred during a brief window of about 50,000 to 60,000
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: years ago, advanced genomic mapping shows multiple waves of contact
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: occurred much earlier. 200,000 to 250,000 years ago, an early
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 2: wave of Homo sapiens migrating out of Africa encountered and
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: mated with Neanderthals in Eurasia. So what this guy was
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: saying was that it might not have been that, but
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: that even earlier than this, Neanderthals were a result of
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: human beings interbreeding with others or Homo sapiens interbreeding with others.
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Thank you, though. What were we just at? Oh, Denisovans.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: So just that one alone was way bigger than most
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: humans at the time. And just given the size of
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: the head, the bones are bigger. It's a bigger brow.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: It seems like a more robust, larger version of a human.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: And then when you take into account the range and
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: size of human beings, given the correct amount of resources
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: and food and protein, we got seven-foot-plus humans that are
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: all over the place today. And imagine if these Denisovan skulls,
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: which seem to be a completely different structure than a
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: Homo sapiens, they might be the giants of the Bible,
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: is the point. This might be what they were talking about.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: There might have been a race of much larger people
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: that were physically dominant over Homo sapiens.
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: They could have been, they could have been a considerably bigger.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: They don't even need to be that big for the
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: myths to kind of perpetuate. Do you know what I mean?
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: Like just for someone to be a little bit bigger
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: and you encounter a group of them and you're like
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: a small homo sapien community. You're going to remember that.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: Well, whenever I do the UFC weigh-ins, I'm standing next
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: to massive fucking, you know, these huge heavyweights. Like some
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: of these guys are just gigantic humans, you know? six
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: foot seven, six foot nine, 265 pounds, and they have
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: to cut weight to make 265. These are giant people,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: you know, and then you think this is, you know,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: whatever percentage of people that are around today that are
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: that big. If the Denisovans, if we just have a limit,
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 2: we might've caught just a few small ones. I mean,
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: that's what we don't know. I mean, I wonder what
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 2: the fuck would happen if they found some bones that
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 2: indicated there was a man that was nine feet tall.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: And we know that primates can get that big. And
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: obviously we're a primate. I can't remember what it's called, but.
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: Gigantopithecus.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: That's the one, yeah. Absolutely gigantic as per the name.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: So primates are kind of line of animals can get
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: really big.
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 2: And along the same lines of the timeline of discovery
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: of that is fascinating too. Because I think it was
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: in the 1920s, an archaeologist was in an apothecary shop
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: in China. And he found molars. that were from a
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 2: primate that didn't make any sense.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: They were really big.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, huge. He's like, where did you get this? And
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: he went there, and then that's where they found jawbones
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: and things. So there's some, we used to think that
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: they were bipedal, because I've read that before, but now
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: they're thinking that not, not necessarily, and that they might
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: have been, because a lot of people thought that's Bigfoot.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: There's this myth that persists throughout Native American cultures, everywhere else. Yeah,
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: they think it might have been an enormous orangutan. Look
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: at that movie. What was it, The Jungle Book?
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 4: Jungle Book, yeah.
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: So a 10-foot-tall orangutan, like what? I mean, it just
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: makes sense. If there's the people, you brought up florists before.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: Now we also know about those little hobbit people that
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: lived on the island of Flores that were these three-foot-tall,
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: tiny little people. Mm-hmm. So the island dwarfism, and then
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: there's a totally different version of human beings, of, you know,
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: the human chain, the human tree. Who knows? Who knows
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: what these Denisovans look like?
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: And island gigantism is also a thing in nature. We
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: see that and we see island dwarfism.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: With reptiles, right?
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: So it could apply to primates and to humans.
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: Sure, as long as they had enough food.
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: It's just the idea of a Denisovan. I mean, they
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: only discovered them in 2010, right?
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, so new. And we have hardly anything about them.
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: How many are we missing? You know what I mean?
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: We literally have, like, a tooth, a jawbone, and this thighbone,
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: and a few other things.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: Right, and how many other versions of humans are we missing?
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's ghost populations in our DNA. We know we're
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: missing humans. Like, there are other types of humans that
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: we just have nothing for.
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's weird.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: That's so weird.
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: That show, Human, have you ever seen that show? It's on... God,
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: is it a BBC show?
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: No, I watched that. Very interesting.
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: It's good.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: But she was on a podcast recently talking about this
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: ghost DNA and how weird it is that a few
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: hundred thousand years ago something happened and there's this DNA
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: that's in there that's like, what is this? What's this stuff?
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so many populations of humans that we think
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 1: existed because of our DNA, but we don't know who
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: they were. We've never found them. And they could be...
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: you know, very close to us, but also with significant differences.
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: And it's just, it's all up in the end. Same
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: with so much of prehistory. We just, we don't know.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I wonder like what kind of a society,
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: what kind of, if, do they find stone tools that,
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: with Denisovans? Do they know that yet?
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: It's really hard to attribute stone tools to anything because
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: if you just have the tools, you don't know what
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: human used them, what human made them.
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: Because you have to find like a skeleton and it's
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: so hard to find a skeleton next to the tools.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: And even then you don't actually know if it was
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: that that made the tools. So we don't know.
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What else has been fascinating for you recently?
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: So I think the question that I mentioned at the start,
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: the one like, when did humans reach isolated land masses
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: such as, uh, America and Australia is a really interesting
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: question because again, the old ideas we have have proven
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: to be incorrect. And I think it's, especially in the
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: case of the Americas, I think it's super interesting because obviously,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: as you know, we used to think it was Clovis
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: first 13,000 years ago, but So many sites now seem
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: to be pushing that back much, much, much, much, much
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: older into the past. So, yeah, that's a really interesting question.
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, now we know that humans have been
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: in the Americas for at least 22,000 years with white
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: sands footprints, which I'm sure you've heard of that.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, 22,000 years.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 4: It's crazy.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: So that's the oldest accepted evidence. But I think there's
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: loads of interesting sites that potentially push it quite a
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: lot further back than that, which are a bit more controversial.
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: But when you take them all together, they're kind of, yeah,
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: there's white sands. So that's now accepted, I think, by
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: most archaeologists. And why that's important is because it kind
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: of opens it all up again. Because of when the
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: glacial maximums happen, the opening of the corridor, because that's
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: pre that. It means that we now don't know how
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: long humans have been in the Americas. It could go
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: back way further. And then you start looking at these
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: other sites, and you think maybe it's a lot, lot older.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: So there's one in Mexico called Chicoita Cave. apologies for
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: the pronunciation is probably wrong, but this is a 33,000
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: years old and high in the mountains of Northern Mexico,
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: they found like 2000 stone tools. Um, and they did
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: like 50 separate dates and the date isn't controversial. What's
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: controversial is if they were human made tools. Um, but
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: the scientists working at the site think that this is
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: evidence of humans in the Americas, 33,000 years ago. Then
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: there's a site in Brazil called Pedro for Rada. which
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: is 50,000 years old. Um, is that Chikawite?
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, it looks just like a tool, but
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, people argue that they're natural. Um, so it's
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: up in the air. It's not accepted yet, but I
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: think that's the, probably the most, uh, the least controversial, um, 26,000
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: years ago.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: But it goes up to, it's like 30 to 33,000 years,
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: I think. Um, But yeah, there's a site called Pedra
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: Furada in Brazil where they found a hearth-like structure. So
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: people making fire, they found charcoal, they found blackened stones,
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: heated stones rather. And they dated that to like 50
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: or 60,000 years ago. So that's like a lot older
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: than White Sands, obviously. So that's a really interesting site. Again,
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: not fully accepted by archaeologists, but the people working there
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: are quite convinced that it's evidence of human presence in Brazil,
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: which is obviously quite far south. um, 50, over 50,000
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: years ago. Um, but the thing is you can't prove
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: it because you haven't, they need so many things to
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: say it for sure. They need like a fossil of
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: a human basically, because otherwise you can say it's natural.
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: Uh, I don't know what those paintings are. I'm assuming
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: they're more recent because always that would be pretty clear evidence. Um,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: but I think that the half like structures and the
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: the heated stones and the charcoal are dated to over 50,000
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: years ago.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. Go back to that last one, please. Right there.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: That is wild. That is wild.
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming that is much more recent because otherwise that
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 1: would be very clear evidence of human presence. But I
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: think the oldest layers go back. I think it's been continuously,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: or they think it's been continuously inhabited for thousands and
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: thousands of years with the oldest being over 50,000 years old.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: Are they the tools? They might be the tools. So
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: critics say that it's natural, right?
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 2: That those are natural things, not tools?
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: But a paper came out in 2023 that really made
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: the case that it's human presence.
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 2: Napping. Yeah.
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think it's leaning that way, but it's
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: just so hard to prove it, right? So it's not accepted.
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 2: Yet but jamie uh i just sent you a link
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: that i found yesterday i thought it was pretty bizarre
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: a completely different part of the world but also really
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: interesting it's a link to an instagram video there's so
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: much of this stuff now that's what's so cool it's
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: like and if you're in a good algorithm You get inundated.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: Give me some volume on this.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 3: Algerian Sahara with 5,000 rooms, and we still haven't seen
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 3: all of them.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: It's called Sefar. No roads lead to it.
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 3: No vehicle can reach it. The only way in is
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 3: on foot through a maze of stone pathways that all
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 3: look identical. On the walls inside, there are 15,000 paintings,
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 3: animals that no longer exist here, rivers that dried up
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 3: thousands of years ago, and then things no one can identify.
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 3: Floating figures with no faces. Beings with round heads wearing
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 3: what looks like suits. A figure over three meters tall
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 3: that the man who discovered it simply called a god.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 3: Most of Sephar is still unmapped. Whatever else is in there,
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 3: no one's seen it yet.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: I could do without that guy's voice. He's a little ridiculous.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: I'm going to take the radio head out. Yeah, settle down, buddy.
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: It sounds like an AI voice, right? Like a super
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 2: enthusiastic AI voice? Is that what it is?
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 4: Well, it could be. It very well could be. It
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 4: definitely is going to be in the future, but.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: What was it called? I don't... I don't remember.
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 4: Sephar?
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 2: It's just... Yeah.
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 4: Let's try to look it up.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: Let's see if we can look it up. Sub-Saharan Africa
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: is another weird one, right? Because especially the Sahara itself, like,
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: that used to be vast, green, grassy trees, jungle. Like,
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: who knows what it was? And now, no one's... really
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: has really any understanding of what's under that sand.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah but it was fertile and green right up until
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: literally right up until the point that the conventional timeline
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: has civilization starting like around 4000 bc is when it
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: flipped to to desert um so yeah i mean i'm
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: sure there's there has been archaeological work done in the
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: sahara but compared to the size of the sahara right
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: there's there's just got to be loads of stuff under
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: there that could potentially change our understanding of origins of
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: civilization for sure um very interesting region but yeah extremely
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: hard to excavate for many reasons such as the climate
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: and also political instability a lot of those countries are
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: pretty fucked up so it's hard to like go in
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: there and do archaeology but very interesting region of the
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: world and obviously that is where egypt emerged just after
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: this period so you know what were the people that
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: kind of went to the nile river doing before there's
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: many interesting things there's um What's it called? There's an
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: interesting site. Napsa Playa, I think it's called.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's going to be a little hard to get to.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 5: It's the middle of the Sahara Desert.
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 4: Boy.
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 5: In Algeria.
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: Jeez.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 5: Buried.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. I have heard of this, actually.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 4: Somewhere in there.
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: Fuck. Imagine you're an archaeologist. You're tasked with, you know,
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 2: someone gives you some funding.
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 4: Hey.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: Sahara Desert, bro.
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: We want you to get in there. And go look around. What?
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's probably not the ideal place to go.
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: You can't even go without getting killed.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want to get shot.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 2: You could literally die. So, no.
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 6: Just imagine if you found something cool. Imagine you found
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 6: a bunch of cool shit.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you go. Good luck.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 6: Just good luck taking it out. They're going to be like, oh,
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 6: where did you get that?
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Exactly. They'll kill you. That was also my thought.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 2: I was going to bring that up about Gobekli Tepe,
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 2: about if they bring in more archaeologists, more people to dig,
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 2: if they really truly expand. They really have to keep
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: track of what they find because the amount of money
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: that someone can get for an artifact on the black
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 2: market is pretty incredible. This is an issue with Egypt, right?
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: And South America.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, and South America. But Egypt in particular, there's some
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 2: inconsistencies there. with Zahi Hawass's versions of like what was
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: discovered in some places, whether or not a skeleton was
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: in a sarcophagus versus what he said later. You know,
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: like in the older versions, there was a skeleton and
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 2: the newer versions, they didn't find anything. So did you
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: sell a skeleton? Because people sell, I'm not saying he did,
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: but did somebody sell a skeleton? Because people sell skeletons.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: And if you are some rich guy who lives in
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: some other country and you're a billionaire from oil, And
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: you're like, you know what I'd like? You've got a guy.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: He's like, you've got everything. You've got all the Ferraris.
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: He's like, you know what I want? I want an
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: Egyptian skeleton. Get me that. Go get me a mummy.
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 2: I want a fucking mummy.
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: Or any kind of artifacts or anything.
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Especially something gold, some ancient gold. All that
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: stuff was stolen out of there. So was it melted down?
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: For grave robbers, that must have been an incredible place
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 2: to be before everybody discovered all those tombs. Because we know, like,
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: with King Tut, which was preserved, but luckily nobody got
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: into that until... What year was that? They found it. Tutankhamun's.
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but within the last couple decades, I think.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure.
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: Whatever it was. I think it was a little longer
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: than that. But the point is, it's, like, fantastic gold
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: sarcophagus cover and massive fucking treasure trove of jewels and things. Like,
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: how much of that stuff is... scattered in private collections
• 1:44:03
  Speaker 2: in the world, you know? Yeah.
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: And in South America, like, because they spent, like, underneath Cusco,
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: there's all these tunnels, right? And people have known about
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: them for a long, long time. But it took a
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: long time for archaeology to kind of accept that they
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: were there. But people have been going, like, people had, like,
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: tours and stuff down into the tunnels before it was, like,
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 1: widely accepted. And back then, it's just rife for people
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: selling off to the black market because there's no control
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: over it. There's no kind of institutional... control over it
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: so people could just kind of do what they want
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: until it actually finally got like you know controlled by
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: the authorities so yeah who knows what went and all
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: over the world as you say yeah there could be
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: stuff that is really interesting that is just out there.
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: And then there's the elongated skulls the weird fucking skulls
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: and a long history of people discovering those like how
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: many people got the good ones how many of them
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: were removed a long time ago and sit somewhere and
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: It's almost like you have to go raid all the
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: rich guys in the world.
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: See what you got hiding in your basement.
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: Just find some guy, like, what's your Google search like?
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: Let's find out who's got the stuff. Because, I mean,
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 2: if you're a person with a private museum, if you've
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 2: got that kind of money. And, like, there's people in
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 2: the world that have private zoos, right? So they have
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: so much money in other countries that they've, you know,
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: they have basically the wild kingdom in their backyards. And
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: that guy's like, well, I got that. Now I want–
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: I want something even more weird. I want you to
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: build– like I went to the Cairo Museum once, and
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: I like the way it looks. I want that in
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 2: my house. There's got to be people like that in
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: the world.
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 5: This guy.
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 2: He's one of them. Here he goes.
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 5: 91-year-old Don Miller from Indiana. He had thousands of artifacts
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 5: removed from his house.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 4: I think he had Egyptian mummies.
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: Whoa.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to find the good pictures in the.
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: List of what he had. So they seized his stuff.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: How'd they find out about it? Was he on Instagram?
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 5: A delegation from China went to Indiana to claim their stuff. Whoa.
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 2: A delegation from China. I wonder if they showed up
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: with guns. Give me your shit back. FBI raided a
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 2: 91-year-old missionary's home and found thousands of stolen Native American bones. Whoa.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 4: Amazon River canoe.
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: Wow. Ming Dynasty jade, an Egyptian sarcophagus, and a dugout
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 2: canoe that had traveled down the Amazon River. Wow.
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 5: It was just in his house. There's a picture of
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 5: his house and another thing I had. I mean, it's
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 5: just all.
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: How'd this guy get the scratch? Where's he getting the
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 2: money for all this? What'd this guy do?
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 4: I don't know whether it's on a movie about him.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 2: After 10 years, FBI returned 7,000 rare artifacts... Looted by
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: Indiana grave robber. Oh, he's a grave robber. That's what
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: they call him? So it was just a dude who
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: was a collector. He might not necessarily be a grave robber.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 4: I don't think this is the same guy.
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 2: FBI found 42,000 relics and 2,000 human bones in a
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 2: man's home.
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 6: What is that?
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: Whoa, what the? What is that, a horse?
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 4: Maybe like a pangolin or something.
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: A sloth? Yeah, it looks like a pangolin, right? 42,000 relics. Oh,
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 2: same guy. No. Don Miller. Whoa. It is the same guy.
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. This guy's a nut. He died in 2015.
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 2: Too bad. He was 91 when agents first knocked on
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: his door in 2014. Wow, he only lived a year later.
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 2: The 42,000 artifacts hoarded by Miller represent maybe the largest
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: ever seizure from a private collection. So this was interesting.
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 2: It's like, are they saying that he's not allowed to
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 2: acquire them? Do we have rules in terms of like, say,
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 2: if you found some stuff? I know we have rules
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: about Native Americans, right? FBI became involved when they learned
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 2: thousands of items were obtained in violation of antiquities laws
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: and federal and state statutes. According to the FBI, Miller
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 2: went on digs around the world and illegally brought his
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 2: finds home to the United States.
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 5: I think Nick Cage had to give back that skull
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 5: he bought because it was stolen from somewhere or something.
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: He bought a skull? Like a T-Rex skull.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 5: You ever hear about that?
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, he had to give back his T-Rex skull?
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 6: I think so because they found out that it was
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 6: like stolen.
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 4: So he gave it back.
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 6: I don't know what happened with the money, but.
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 4: Whoa.
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 2: How much does a T-Rex cost?
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 4: Also, I was thinking, this guy got.
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: He got fucked.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 4: They found this guy.
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 6: There's got to be.
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 4: I brought him up because I knew about it.
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 6: He probably talked about it at the bar and all.
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: That kind of shit.
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 6: What about the people who don't?
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 2: He's on Facebook.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 1: What about the people who don't?
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: Those old dudes are all on Facebook. Have you seen
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: the dinosaur that Waze to Well has?
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 2: Waze to Well... Legally purchased a dinosaur more like it
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 2: so they have a like a dinosaur bone some aquatic
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 2: dinosaur that they have suspended And they're sealing really okay.
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 2: You can buy dinosaur bones He.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 1: Bought a skull for two hundred seventy six thousand dollars well,
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: you got.
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 2: Flying government Wow He voluntarily returned the fossils the Mongolian
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: government after US authorities found it was smuggled Wow um
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 2: See if you can find the ways to weld dinosaur. Yeah,
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 2: you can buy dinosaur bones. That's pretty cool. There's a
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: lot of people that don't believe in dinosaurs lately. Really?
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 2: This is very confusing. Why?
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 1: What's their reasoning?
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, just they've been lied to about everything. Maybe dinosaurs too.
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: And there's people that think that dinosaurs were actually the
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: dragons of ancient history. And that's all bullshit. It's the
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 2: dumbest theories. I mean, like, you know, we have, there's
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: the ways to weld dinosaur. That's what it looks like.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: That's pretty dope.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty sick. Some sort of an aquatic dinosaur.
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 2: How much of that is actual bone and how much
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 2: of it is replica? I don't know. Some of them
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: are replica. I think that's actual bone. But, like, they
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: have T-Rexes. I think the most complete T-Rex is, I
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 2: want to say 80%. What is the most complete T-Rex
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 2: skeleton ever found?
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 4: The one just sold recently at an auction.
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah?
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it was 62% complete.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 2: Is that the most complete one ever?
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure.
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 2: I thought there was a.
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 4: Oh, there's one that's 90%. Oh, there you go.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 5: Well, discovered with 90% of its skeleton recovered.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we know a lot, folks. This idea that dinosaurs
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: aren't real is really silly.
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: No, it's definitely real.
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: Sue.
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 2: Whoa. Okay. So that's real. Guys, stop. That's a real skull.
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: The problem is there's been deception. And one of the
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: big pieces of deception is when you go to a
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 2: lot of museums and you see a dinosaur skeleton, you
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 2: assume that's how they found it and they put it
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: back together again. Whereas a lot of the pieces of
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: those bones are not real. A lot of the pieces
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: are recreations and some entire skeletons that are in museums
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 2: are all a recreation. There's no actual bone that you're
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: actually looking at. And so then people were like, hey.
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 1: It's the same with ancient sites, though.
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: 67 million years old, 80% intact. So, like, just that alone,
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 2: 80% of that is real. That's amazing. They're real. It's
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 2: a fucking real thing that existed just like fucking crocodiles
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 2: are still real today. There was a real group of
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 2: large reptiles that roamed the earth.
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: For a long time. But the crazy thing, I think
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: dinosaurs really highlight the kind of fragmentary nature of the
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: fossil record, right? Because they existed for 160 million years
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: or something like that. But we only have like a
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 1: few thousand fossils from that huge amount of time. And
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 1: it just shows how little survives, right?
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And the fossil record is just really weird.
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: It takes a lot to make a fossil. So we
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 2: have a tiny fraction of the actual data And.
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 1: We have to extrapolate out from that. And just that's
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: our understanding. And that's why we do not know what
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: happened in the deep past.
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 2: Isn't it fucking cool?
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: It's so cool.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: That's why I do what I do, man. I fucking
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: love it.
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know anybody who when you first learn
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 2: about this, anybody that I want to talk to, when
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 2: you first learn about this stuff, you don't go, whoa.
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 2: You know, because it is so interesting. And that's why,
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 2: to me, the reaction to Graham Hancock's Netflix series was
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 2: so strange, like so unhinged. Like, why are you guys
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 2: freaking out about this and calling it the most dangerous show?
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've experienced this firsthand now because, I mean,
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: last time I was here, I wasn't really known about.
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: But now I'm a kind of people know who I
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: am and I get so much hate, so much hate
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 1: at it. It's weird because people paint me out to
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: be something I'm not like. And it's just so strange
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: because I'm me and I know what I think and
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: I know what I believe. Obviously, you've experienced that on
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: a whole different level.
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've experienced it from the government.
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 4: But it's just wild.
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: It's so weird when people paint you out to be
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: someone that you're not and put words in your mouth.
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: It's strange.
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 2: You'll get used to it. The key is just don't
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 2: read it. That's the key. You're going to be aware
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 2: of enough of it peripherally. People will bring it to
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 2: your attention if it's really important or if it's like significant.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 2: None of it's going to really be important. But as
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 2: long as– and you're a very conscientious guy and you
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 2: do a really good job, like I said, of being
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 2: objective and measured and that's all you need to do.
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 2: Just keep doing that. Just don't read the comments. Because
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 2: there's a bunch of people out there that are just
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 2: very unhappy, period, no matter what. And when someone is
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 2: getting a lot of attention, they're very angry always. And
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 2: there's whatever that number is, one out of a hundred,
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: one out of a thousand. It doesn't matter. When they
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 2: reach you, that negativity is never good for you. It's
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 2: only bad for you.
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: And it sits with you a little bit more. Like
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: you get all the positive comments, but you don't really,
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: you know, like the negative ones sticks in your brain.
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: But you know what's really interesting is like people have
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: done like hit pieces on me and shit, but, and
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: obviously loads of negative stuff comes through, but also I've
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 1: had like actual archaeologists and actual People working in national
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 1: institutions reach out to me and say, like, you know,
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: these are like actual archaeologists. And they're saying, like, Michael,
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: we value your work and we actually think you're an
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: important voice and stuff like that. And I find that
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: really encouraging because these are, you know, it's easy for
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 1: us to think about archaeologists as like a kind of bogeyman.
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: They're like want to suppress all this stuff, but they're
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: not all like that.
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 2: No, I think particularly the young ones, particularly people that
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 2: are coming up that really the reason why they got
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 2: into this in the first place is because it's such
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 2: a fascinating subject. And like you, when you've spoken on this,
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 2: when you were in school and you were getting your degree,
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 2: you were confused as to why these alternative perspectives weren't entertained.
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of young people that feel
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 2: confined by the gatekeepers. They feel confined by the career
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 2: academics that are sort of in charge of who gets what. tenure,
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 2: who gets jobs, who gets grants. And it's a very
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 2: confusing thing. You don't want to ruffle any feathers, step
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 2: on any toes. And so you feel constrained in your
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: ability to be, you know, curious. And that's, that seems
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: insane for something that is so inherently curious, curiosity driven.
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: So inherently unknown as well. We do not know, as
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: we keep saying.
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right. We're not talking about stuff that's like,
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: you know, established science where you can clearly you know,
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: it's not mathematics. This is something like weird. You know, you're, you're,
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 2: you're looking at hints of the past. And, um, the
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 2: more we look, the more we find older stuff. It's
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 2: like grandma always says, stuff just keeps getting older.
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 2: It's crazy. Well, it's just so cool that you're out
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 2: there making videos and that you could do that for
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 2: a living now.
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: I know it's wild. I feel, I feel so lucky
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: that I get to, uh, do something I'm so interested
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 1: in and talk about these topics and also to like
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 1: create not to kind of like inspire this thinking and
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: other people that's really what i want to try and
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: do is to get people thinking about history from this
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 1: different perspective and to think about the unknown and think
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: about the potential that what humans could have been doing
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: now that we know that a mind like ours could
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 1: have existed for a million years that humans like us
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: could have inhabited this planet for such a vastly longer
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: length of time than we used to believe and all
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 1: the possibilities that throws up more than anything, that's what
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 1: I want people to, to think about when they watch
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: my work. I don't want to tell them to believe
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 1: this or tell them to believe that. I just want
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: them to kind of think about it themselves and open
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: their minds to the possibilities that could have occurred. And
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that like people always say that I
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 1: like saying that there's like advanced civilizations in prehistory. I'm
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: not saying that I'm just saying there's a lot more
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: on the table than we used to think. And I
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: think that's really fascinating. I wish more people would, uh,
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: kind of take that possibility seriously. Um, And that's why
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: I get encouraged when I get these emails from people
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 1: that are actually in the institutions because they're the people
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: that are going to rewrite the textbooks. I can say
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: what I want. I'm just a YouTuber. But we need
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: the people that are actually working in the institutions to
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 1: think in this way. And then I think we might
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 1: update our thinking on these things.
• 1:57:50
  Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of those young folks that
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 2: are coming up now in archaeology that do have alternative perspectives.
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: whether or not they're being suppressed. And it's also very
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 2: encouraging for them to see a pathway outside of academics, academia,
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 2: like what you're pursuing. And to see, like, not only
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: is this viable, but you can do it with the
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 2: proper approach, like the way that you're doing it, where
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 2: you're not making crazy claims, not saying the aliens did it.
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 2: You're not saying anything nutty. You're just saying, hey, there's
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 2: a lot going on here. And to pretend that we
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 2: have an accurate map of the territory seems silly.
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just think there's so much more on the
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: table now than there used to be only a few
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: decades ago. And I think that's so exciting when we
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: look at our past because, as I say, it's the
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 1: reason we're all here, right? It's the reason we live
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: in this civilization is the answer to these questions. And
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 1: we don't know the answer to these questions anymore. So
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 1: let's talk about it, you know?
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. What else have you found recently that's interesting?
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I mean I was still there's still um,
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 1: there's older American sites, so So there's obviously the Cerruti
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 1: Macedon site, which is 130,000 years old, which is controversial,
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 1: but I think people.
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: Spoke about that. That's the Macedon bones where they appeared
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 2: to be It appears signs of human smashing the bones
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 2: to get the marrow.
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just after like fresh freshly smashed after the animal
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 1: had died and they found like these anvils like these
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: things that look like tools next to the bones and
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: It's controversial because we can't prove that that was human activity,
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 1: but it looks like human activity. It was even published
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: in nature in 2017. So, you know, it's another little
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: data point that pushes back human presence in the America
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 1: potentially to over a hundred thousand years ago. And there's
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: even more, there's a site called Calico where I think
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: this one's a little bit, I don't, I don't really
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 1: buy this one, but a very famous archeologist called Louis Leakey,
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 1: who was like one of the top names in the
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: archeology in the 20th century, he believed The Calico showed
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 1: evidence of human presence in the Americas over 100,000 years
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 1: ago as well. So it's another data point. And then
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 1: there's Way at Larco, which I think you've heard of.
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 1: Have you heard of Way at Larco? It's this site
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 1: in Mexico where they had this volcanic ash over these
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 1: human tools, and they dated the ash to crazy numbers.
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 1: I'm talking like 300,000, 400,000, 500,000 years ago, and the
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 1: tools were below this layer.
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 2: What? Yeah, so.
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not aware of that one.
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: So....
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: In the 1950s, there was a Mexican archaeologist who was
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: doing some work in the Vasco Basin in Mexico near
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: the city of Pubella. And he was finding all these
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: extinct Pleistocene animal remains there alongside human activity. So he
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 1: called in some American archaeologists and they did some work.
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 1: And they identified this site called Huayatlaco, which is an
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 1: archaeological site there. And they found these very sophisticated stone tools.
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: They're like bifacial stone tools, which means they've been worked
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: on on two sides. And it's quite a sophisticated level
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: of tool. And so they found this and they were like, OK,
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 1: this is an interesting site. Let's bring in some geologists.
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: So the geologists came in and they were expecting to
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 1: date the kind of sediment around the tools to around 8,000
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 1: to 10,000 years ago because they knew about a volcanic
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: eruption that had happened at that time. And so they
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: expected the volcanic ash to be from that. So they
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: did all this testing. But then they found that the
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 1: ash was giving these crazy dates, like 200,000, 300,000, up
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 1: to 600,000 years old. And that was completely mental because
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 1: the tools were below this layer of ash. And then
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: they dated a camel pelvis, I think, that was in
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: situ with the tools. And that camel pelvis came back
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 1: to 250,000 years old as well. And that was in
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: the same layer of the tools. So they kind of
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 1: brought all their different dating methods together. And there's multiple
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: kind of geological dating methods on the sediment, the ash,
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 1: and also the camel pelvis. And they kind of collected
• 2:01:37
  Speaker 1: all this to a date of 250,000 years ago for
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 1: this site, for where these tools were found. And yeah.
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 1: And so they tried to publish this and they received
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: like immense pushback because obviously this was the time of
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: the Clovis first paradigm. And, you know, people weren't ready
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 1: for Clovis to be broken, let alone by such a
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: huge margin, like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years old.
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: And they couldn't publish for like 20 years. And by
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: that time, many of the artifacts had gone missing and
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 1: they didn't know where they were and the site actually
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: got raised, like it got kind of removed. And I'm
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 1: not trying to say that's like some conspiracy or anything,
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 1: but it just means that you can't really prove it.
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: But they did eventually publish and the geologists have always
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 1: stuck by this date and there's multiple lines of evidence
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 1: that suggests that the tools were found below this layer
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 1: of roughly 250,000 years old. And that's obviously like hugely
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: older than we think humans have been in the Americas.
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: So It's a very interesting site. I want to give
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: a shout out to Will Brown, who's got a channel
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 1: called Incredible History. He's actually been to the site and
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 1: he kind of like nudged me in the direction of
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 1: looking into this one. He's got a great channel. But yeah,
• 2:02:51
  Speaker 1: it's super interesting because we can't prove it because the
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 1: tools have gone missing. The site no longer exists, but
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 1: there's a paper out there written by serious scientists saying that,
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 1: you know, there could be human presence in the Americas.
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 1: over 200,000 years ago, potentially even older than that. And
• 2:03:07
  Speaker 1: that would just radically change our understanding of humans in America.
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 1: So then when you put all these sites together, so
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: obviously White Sands is the earliest at 22,000. But then
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: when you add that to Chicoete Cave, as I mentioned earlier, 33,000.
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 1: Pedra Furada in Brazil, over 50,000. Cerruti Mastodon, 130,000. I
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 1: don't really think Calico is.
• 2:03:28
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's natural. But then we had Larko
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 1: at 250,000. You know, it only takes one of them
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: to be right for our understanding of when humans reached
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: America to radically shift. And I think it's only logical
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: that humans were in America a lot longer than we think. Because,
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 1: you know, when we're talking about the vast span of
• 2:03:44
  Speaker 1: time that we've been on this planet, why couldn't we
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: have reached these places?
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 2: And then the question is, how did we reach them?
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 2: And from where? You know, from where?
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 2: That's the weird thing is some of the When you
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 2: look at pyramid structures, for instance, where did that idea
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 2: come from? How did that idea make it to the Aztecs?
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 1: All over the world we find pyramids.
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 2: Weird. It is weird.
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, you could say that it's just like a
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: logical way of building things, but maybe. Who knows?
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 2: Well, there's also the weirdness in the fact that the
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 2: Aztecs themselves didn't build the pyramids.
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 1: Some of them, yeah, like Teotihuacan was there before, and
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 1: they said it was, the name literally means place where
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: the gods lived, and they found it there. And so
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: it was before them, and they don't know who built it.
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: They give us lots of our names. They gave us
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: the name Olmec. Olmec means the rubber people, because they
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: knew about the Olmecs. They knew they existed before them,
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 1: but they didn't really know who they were, but they
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 1: just called them the rubber people.
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 2: Is it because they lived around rubber trees?
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's because they use rubber or something. I'm
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 1: not 100% sure.
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 2: So what's the conventional theory about who built these Aztec temples?
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 1: I think the theory is that it was a culture
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 1: that came just before the Aztecs that we don't have
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 1: a name for. But they don't know.
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 2: Imagine you don't know anything about them. You don't have
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 2: a name for them. But they made insanely sophisticated architecture
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 2: with stone.
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: That mirrored the cosmos.
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no one knows who built the Pyramid of the Sun.
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 1: I think that's what it's called at Teotihuacan. But it's
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 1: ginormous and it's incredible. And it's all these different layers
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 1: to it and incredibly sophisticated. But we don't know who
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 1: built it. We don't really know when they built it.
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, we think we know kind of the region,
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 1: but we don't know. As is the case with so
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 1: much of this stuff, we do not know.
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 2: Is there a conventional timeline?
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 1: For Teotihuacan?
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And what are they basing it on? If they
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 2: think it came right before the Aztecs? Because I had
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 2: read as long as 1,000 years before them.
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I mean by
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 1: right before because I'm thinking in these big, big, big–
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 1: That's a long time. It's a long time, yeah.
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 2: The United States is not even 300 years old. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 2: of course.
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 1: But, yeah, what I'm trying to say is I don't
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: think it's like way, way, way.
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 3: Way old.
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 5: Right, right, right, right.
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 2: So somewhere around 1,000 years before. But that's the thing.
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 2: It's like how many of these things happened where there
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 2: was some sort of a civilization and then it collapsed?
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 2: and then new people came along. The idea that you
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 2: would have a civilization that was capable of building something
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 2: as fantastic as some of those Aztec constructions, and then
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 2: they would just go away.
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 1: We just lost all memory of it, all memory of it.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 1: And then people just wandered up there one day, the Aztecs,
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 1: and they're like, whoa, what is this?
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 2: And it was probably covered with jungle, right?
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, how many of those things were just absorbed?
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 2: by just nature.
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 1: And it's no wonder that they think it was built
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 1: by gods, right? Because you see it and you're like,
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 1: that is incredible.
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 2: Who built this?
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 1: It must have been the gods.
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 2: And there's no one living in it. Fuck.
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: And it just shows how easily human civilizations can reach
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 1: a really high peak level of sophistication and then go
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 1: down again and collapse and just all memory of them
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 1: is gone.
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Any other cool things you've discovered recently?
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 1: Well, there's also the question of when humans reached Australia,
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 1: which I think is another really interesting question because the
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 1: conventional time is 65,000 years ago. And there's a site
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 1: called Majed Bebe in Northern Australia. And that's the earliest
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 1: accepted site in Australia. And that's right in the north
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 1: of the country. And it makes sense because you have
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 1: to cross water to get to Australia. You have to
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 1: build boats and cross water. But there's another really interesting
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 1: site that's right in the south of Australia where archaeologists found...
• 2:07:43
  Speaker 1: blackened stones again and charcoal and hearth-like structures. And they
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 1: dated this site to 120,000 years ago, which is double,
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 1: just about double the time that we think humans were
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 1: in Australia. And it's in the very south of the country.
• 2:07:57
  Speaker 1: And the archaeologists that have working there actually wrote in
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 1: their paper that the evidence supports a cultural origin over
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 1: a natural origin so they think that it's cultural as
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 1: in human rather than natural but they can't prove it
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 1: because there's no associated artifacts and no associated skeletons but
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: they think that it it kind of leans towards being
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 1: a cultural origin. And obviously if that's correct, that means
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: human beings were only in Australia twice as long as
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 1: we thought, but also had inhabited the entire continent or
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 1: not inhabited, but had gone through the entire continent right
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 1: down to the very South of the country, twice as
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 1: old as we thought. And it's just another thing that's
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 1: like pushing it older and older and older. And it's
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 1: not accepted, but it's so hard to prove these things
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 1: because we can't find skeletons or we can find skeletons,
• 2:08:46
  Speaker 1: but it's extremely rare. So, The bar is so high
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 1: for proof, but this site called Moygill 120,000 years ago
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 1: is I think very strong suggestive evidence that human beings
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 1: have been in Australia twice as long as we think.
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 1: And obviously that means that they had to have got
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 1: there by boat and yeah. That's another interesting one.
• 2:09:07
  Speaker 2: Wasn't there something that was done on the genetic connection
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 2: between Australian Aboriginal people and Denisovans? Yeah, yeah.
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 1: They think that maybe there was different migration pathways and
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 1: different human species potentially also reached Australia. And it's not
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 1: that wild because if you think back to the seafaring
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 1: thing we were talking about earlier, if people were reaching
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 1: islands over a million years ago, then why couldn't they
• 2:09:30
  Speaker 1: have reached Australia much earlier than we think?
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 1: Because if we had that capability for so long, Why not?
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 2: When they do this, is this, I mean, because obviously
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 2: they didn't even know about Denisovans until 2010. So is
• 2:09:45
  Speaker 2: this like a genetic analysis? And if so, like, do
• 2:09:51
  Speaker 2: they have genes? Like, how do they get genetic material
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 2: from these Denisovan skeletons?
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 1: I think you can take it from. Like a tooth
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 1: or something? I'm not quite sure, but I think you can.
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 1: I think they know the kind of genetic makeup of
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: the different human species. So I think you can tell
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 1: that way if you've got, like, a trace of the DNA.
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I was saying. Like, if it's fossilized,
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 2: do they have actual DNA from Denisovans? And if they do, like,
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 2: how are they guessing that people, Aboriginal people in Australia,
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 2: have some traces of it? Just like Europeans have traces
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 2: of Neanderthal.
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: And also people in.
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 1: I think like Nepal and these high altitude places, they
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 1: have quite high traces of Denisovan DNA. And that's what
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 1: they think allows them to live in high altitude environments.
• 2:10:38
  Speaker 1: They think that Denisovans are more robust than modern humans
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 1: and can live in more extreme environments. And they think
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 1: that people that live in those kind of high altitude
• 2:10:48
  Speaker 1: regions of the Himalayas and stuff have that kind of gene,
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 1: if you like. I'm not sure that's the science behind it,
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 1: but they think they have the traces of that. And
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 1: that's what allows them to live in these more isolated places.
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 1: high altitude environments.
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 2: So they think Denisovans lived in high altitude, mostly? Maybe.
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 2: They don't know. Well, there's only a few bones, right? Exactly.
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 1: So it's really hard to tell.
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 2: So fucking interesting, man.
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 1: And also in that region, they found recently the oldest
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: evidence of advanced surgery, which is like way older than
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 1: we think. It's like 31,000 years ago. They found some
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 1: surgery in Borneo, which is again in this same region.
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 1: I think Indonesia is such a fascinating region because It's
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 1: the place of where the Sunda Shelf was, where obviously
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 1: the sea level's risen, have covered a huge expanse of
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 1: land that used to be land, but now no longer is.
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 1: And so many interesting discoveries here. But yeah, this surgery
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 1: thing is, they found the skeleton of a child that
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 1: had had his leg amputated, but had lived for many, many, many,
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 1: many years afterwards. And his whole lower leg had been
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 1: amputated off and but like healed like completely and he
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 1: lived like or she i think as a girl lived
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 1: like a lot longer after that and obviously that's quite
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 1: an advanced thing to to do right because you have
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 1: to understand how to prevent infection you have to it's
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 1: a very humid place as well so it's very hard
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 1: to survive probably was very painful for that individual but
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 1: this pushed back our understanding of surgery by like 20
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 1: 000 no maybe not quite that long i can't remember
• 2:12:18
  Speaker 1: i think it was like 7 000 years ago so
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: yeah by a long way because this is 31 000
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 1: years ago So again, it's showing prehistoric humans to be
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: far more sophisticated than we think. They were performing surgery 31,000
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 1: years ago and surviving and living for years afterwards.
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 2: That is insane. I wonder if they had any pharmacological
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 2: interventions to deal with the pain.
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 1: Well, I think they would have used wild plants because
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 1: we've got so much evidence now of other human species
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 1: and our human species using wild plants to... For medicinal purposes.
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 1: We see Neanderthals doing that a long, long time ago,
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 1: like cultivating wild plants and using them as painkillers and
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 1: stuff like that.
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 2: What's going to kill the pain of a fucking amputation?
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 1: Well, probably not much.
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 2: Of a bone saw. I know.
• 2:13:02
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 2: And they're like, what kind of tools do they have? Like,
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 2: what were they doing it with? How did they stitch
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 2: people up? Did they have needles? Did they have thread?
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 2: Did they just leave the wound open? Like, what did
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 2: they do?
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 1: But whatever they did, it worked. And they were sophisticated
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: enough to keep that person alive and to care for
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 1: them and for them to live years afterwards. Excuse me.
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 1: It's wild. It's wild. So it's yet more evidence of
• 2:13:26
  Speaker 1: people being super sophisticated so much longer in time than
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 1: we thought. And it all points in one direction, man,
• 2:13:31
  Speaker 1: which is humans have been here longer. They've been more
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 1: intelligent than we thought for a long, long time.
• 2:13:36
  Speaker 2: If you had to guess, what do you think is
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 2: the oldest... real true civilization how long when do you
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 2: think it started.
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: So i think in terms of like what we call
• 2:13:49
  Speaker 1: civilization in terms of our current like cycle of it
• 2:13:52
  Speaker 1: if you like i think it is and whatever came
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 1: before that but i don't think it would probably been
• 2:13:57
  Speaker 1: that far further before that but i think that from
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 1: the onset of the holocene i think we basically started
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 1: right away all over the globe and you know caught
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 1: uh develop civilization because it happens everywhere right back to
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 1: question one why did it happen everywhere all over the
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: time because i think that's what humans do i think
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 1: once we get a stable period of climate we we
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 1: innovate because agriculture and civilization can't have been a very
• 2:14:20
  Speaker 1: hard invention to do because everyone did it it happened
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 1: everywhere all over the world so it's not like a
• 2:14:27
  Speaker 1: really unique hard thing to do because people did it
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 1: everywhere So that makes me think, what about all the
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 1: other periods of stable climate that we've had? And now
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 1: that we know that human beings have been around for
• 2:14:36
  Speaker 1: so long, we've had something like four stable warm periods
• 2:14:40
  Speaker 1: in the time that we have modern sapient fossils, so 300,000 years.
• 2:14:44
  Speaker 1: But then if you extrapolate that out to this million-year
• 2:14:47
  Speaker 1: timescale of modern-sized brains and modern behavior with the seafaring,
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 1: it's something like 11 warm periods that we've lived through
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 1: of stable climate conditions that have lasted for over 10,000 years.
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 1: So you look at each of those warm periods and
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 1: you think, If agriculture and civilization isn't that hard seismic
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 1: of an invention to do, why couldn't it have happened
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 1: in those previous warm periods, 11 of them going back
• 2:15:12
  Speaker 1: to a million years and possibly beyond?
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 2: There's also that very weird phenomenon when someone somewhere figures
• 2:15:18
  Speaker 2: something out, even if people aren't connected, other places in
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 2: the world, people figure it out at the same time.
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 2: We know that to be the case today. Rupert Sheldrake
• 2:15:27
  Speaker 2: has a term for it. I think it's called, is
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 2: it morphic resonance? So his term is also based around
• 2:15:35
  Speaker 2: theories that they've done with rats and mazes, that if
• 2:15:39
  Speaker 2: you teach a rat a maze on the East Coast,
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 2: rats on the West Coast learn it quicker. Really?
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:15:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got lots of interesting work, hasn't he, about
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 1: kind of almost telepathic... Yeah, weird stuff.
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very weird stuff. There's probably some sort of Akashic record,
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 2: there's probably some sort of shared field of information... That
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 2: whether or not it's tangible and you can, you know,
• 2:16:02
  Speaker 2: write it down verbatim or whether or not it's some
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 2: sort of implied concepts and ideas that are transmitted through
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 2: the species.
• 2:16:09
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 2: That, like, creativity itself is almost like something that we
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 2: tap into, like, uniformly as a species.
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 1: It's like you can almost feel like we're in an antenna.
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 2:16:22
  Speaker 2: And that, like, when Michael Button figures something out, someone
• 2:16:25
  Speaker 2: on the other part of the world is like, oh,
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 2: I feel it.
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:16:29
  Speaker 2: It's just very weird. It's a very weird idea. And
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 2: it's impossible to prove. You can imply it. And the
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 2: rat thing is very interesting. I think they've done them
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 2: with some other things as well. So it's interesting. Because
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 2: if that's not the case, then what do you have,
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 2: a seafaring civilization that travels the entire globe? Do you
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 2: have something that's so advanced they figured out how to
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 2: traverse continents? And they're bringing all this information with them.
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 2: Is it one group? No, it seems like they all
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 2: kind of figure it out at the same time or roughly.
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 1: But it is pretty much the same time in comparison
• 2:17:08
  Speaker 1: to the amount of time that we've been on the planet, right?
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 1: It's not a coincidence.
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 2: It's an explosion. Exactly. Yeah.
• 2:17:13
  Speaker 1: So why? Because the reason given is the climate. That's
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 1: the old reason. But I think that is the reason because,
• 2:17:19
  Speaker 1: you know, the climate got warmer. So agriculture, civilization. And yeah,
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 1: that makes sense. But then why not before? Why not
• 2:17:24
  Speaker 1: in all of these 11 warm periods where humans have
• 2:17:26
  Speaker 1: been here and been smart? If it's such a common invention,
• 2:17:30
  Speaker 1: why didn't it happen before?
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 4: Maybe it did.
• 2:17:32
  Speaker 2: Maybe it did. It's also interesting how much stuff, like
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 2: if you think about the global temperature, like where is
• 2:17:39
  Speaker 2: it always warm? Well, it's always warm around the equator.
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 2: Kind of always stays warm around there. And well, what's
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 2: around there? Well, the Amazon.
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 1: And even in periods of, yeah, like the fully glaciated
• 2:17:50
  Speaker 1: periods some places on the earth were perfectly habitable right
• 2:17:54
  Speaker 1: so who knows but then i mean and that goes
• 2:17:58
  Speaker 1: back into the like you say the amazon it goes
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 1: back into the question of how long have humans been
• 2:18:01
  Speaker 1: in america because if we've been in america and the
• 2:18:03
  Speaker 1: america's for a lot longer than we think then people
• 2:18:06
  Speaker 1: have been in the amazon a lot longer we think
• 2:18:08
  Speaker 1: and then you look at the discoveries in the amazon
• 2:18:09
  Speaker 1: and how there's been civilizations there a lot further back
• 2:18:12
  Speaker 1: in time than we thought. Well, how far back in time? Obviously,
• 2:18:15
  Speaker 1: the evidence we've seen so far doesn't point like crazy
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 1: back in time, but we don't know.
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 2: Well, there's so little evidence. That's the problem. I mean,
• 2:18:22
  Speaker 2: they're just recently discovering these grids, right? And so how
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 2: much archaeological work has been done on all these grids? Oh, yeah, exactly.
• 2:18:30
  Speaker 1: It's so hard. And also the rainforest is such like
• 2:18:32
  Speaker 1: an extreme recycling kind of natural machine that it's going
• 2:18:36
  Speaker 1: to destroy anything that's older than... than a few thousand
• 2:18:40
  Speaker 1: years ago.
• 2:18:41
  Speaker 2: So it doesn't mean there's not stuff that's older than
• 2:18:43
  Speaker 2: a few thousand years ago. It just means there's nothing left.
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 1: And they could have built in organic materials that have
• 2:18:48
  Speaker 1: just decayed and you would never see it. And they
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 1: could have been doing that hundreds of thousands of years ago.
• 2:18:53
  Speaker 1: And who knows? So it's wild, man. It's so wild. Uh,
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 1: I think there's the potential is all enormous, just absolutely enormous.
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 1: And that's why I do what I do because I
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 1: think it's so fascinating and I love talking about it
• 2:19:06
  Speaker 1: and I love, uh, getting other people to think about it.
• 2:19:09
  Speaker 1: And that's the great privilege of me being able to
• 2:19:11
  Speaker 1: do this job.
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 5: So, yeah.
• 2:19:15
  Speaker 2: Well, it's an important job. It really is. Because those videos,
• 2:19:19
  Speaker 2: although they are just YouTube and they're entertaining, they're just
• 2:19:24
  Speaker 2: something that anyone can digest. There's so much valid, fascinating
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 2: information on them and so many valid questions that we
• 2:19:32
  Speaker 2: really can't quite answer. And it expands the... When people
• 2:19:36
  Speaker 2: watch them... you get this understanding like, oh, wow, this
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 2: is a big puzzle. This thing is really complicated. Like
• 2:19:43
  Speaker 2: it's a lot more complicated than we've been told, especially by,
• 2:19:47
  Speaker 2: you know, people that want you to believe that they
• 2:19:50
  Speaker 2: have the answers.
• 2:19:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I hate it. I hate the certainty
• 2:19:53
  Speaker 1: that people talk about the past because I never talk
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: about it with certainty. I'm not saying this is necessarily true.
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, you know, possibilities everywhere. So many different possibilities.
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 1: And yeah, everything we seem to discover pushes it in
• 2:20:05
  Speaker 1: one direction that's older and more intelligent back in time.
• 2:20:08
  Speaker 1: And yeah, there's so many interesting things. And we barely
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 1: scratched the surface today.
• 2:20:14
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 2: We could do this for days. Before we wrap it up, though,
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 2: is there any other really interesting ones that you'd like
• 2:20:21
  Speaker 2: to talk about?
• 2:20:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was something interesting that came out in regards
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 1: to writing. There's a couple of interesting things regarding writing.
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 1: So obviously writing is the kind of marker of civilization.
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 1: Like writing began, civilization began. but we're starting to see
• 2:20:34
  Speaker 1: evidence of symbolic meaning being transmitted through symbolic notation, like
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 1: way back further in time than we believe. So obviously
• 2:20:43
  Speaker 1: the earliest writing is still thought to be about 4,000
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 1: BC with the ancient Mesopotamian cuneiform and stuff like that.
• 2:20:49
  Speaker 1: But as you mentioned, Irvin Finkel, the kind of idea
• 2:20:52
  Speaker 1: regarding Tashdapella having a similar thing, and that's 12,000 years ago,
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 1: but there's much, much older evidence of humans conveying information
• 2:21:00
  Speaker 1: in a symbolic fashion. So there's... An archeologist called Genevieve
• 2:21:06
  Speaker 1: von Petzinger, I believe she's called, and she found evidence
• 2:21:08
  Speaker 1: that on all these ice age paintings that we find
• 2:21:12
  Speaker 1: in Europe with all these incredible like bulls and bison
• 2:21:15
  Speaker 1: and stuff, and you've probably seen them, but next to
• 2:21:17
  Speaker 1: them is like this kind of symbol of notation that
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 1: people have kind of overlooked for years. But she found
• 2:21:24
  Speaker 1: 32 recurring signs across a period of 30,000 years, all
• 2:21:28
  Speaker 1: across the continent. And these signs she thinks like a,
• 2:21:32
  Speaker 1: not a language as such, but a kind of a,
• 2:21:34
  Speaker 1: a system of encoding meaning. Yeah, there you go.
• 2:21:37
  Speaker 2: They're the signs.
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 1: And she kind of makes the argument that these signs are, um,
• 2:21:44
  Speaker 1: not a language as such, but a kind of tradition
• 2:21:47
  Speaker 1: of conveying information that lasted for 30,000 years. And that
• 2:21:51
  Speaker 1: is such a long length of time. Like if you
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 1: think about the oldest language today is I think it's
• 2:21:56
  Speaker 1: ancient Chinese and that's only a few thousand years old.
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 1: And yet these signs appear all across the continent of
• 2:22:02
  Speaker 1: Europe across a time span of 30,000 years. Pretty much
• 2:22:06
  Speaker 1: exactly the same. And just these signs. And they also
• 2:22:09
  Speaker 1: find them in other continents as well. And she doesn't
• 2:22:12
  Speaker 1: say there's any connection there. I'm not sure there is
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 1: any connection there.
• 2:22:15
  Speaker 2: The spirals are really weird. They find spirals all over
• 2:22:20
  Speaker 2: the place, right?
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 2:22:22
  Speaker 1: They find these signs all over the world. Jamie, you
• 2:22:23
  Speaker 1: might be able to find a.
• 2:22:26
  Speaker 2: All over the world.
• 2:22:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like a cool map where they kind of
• 2:22:29
  Speaker 1: point where it's all found. If you scroll down a
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 1: little bit on the left, that one, yeah. You see this.
• 2:22:36
  Speaker 2: That's really blurry.
• 2:22:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, once it loads. But it's all over the world.
• 2:22:42
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 2:22:42
  Speaker 1: And it's the same signs. Wow.
• 2:22:47
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. So the same signs in Europe, North America,
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 2: Central Africa, South America. Southern Africa, Australia, Malaysia, East Africa,
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 2: New Guinea. Wow. Borneo, Myanmar.
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 1: And she thinks it's like a much older symbolic tradition
• 2:23:08
  Speaker 1: that humans have kind of carried with them in the
• 2:23:11
  Speaker 1: kind of migratory routes. And it actually goes back much
• 2:23:14
  Speaker 1: older than the Ice Age art date of like 40,000 years,
• 2:23:17
  Speaker 1: but actually comes from when humans first reached Europe out
• 2:23:20
  Speaker 1: of Africa and spreading across the world. And we've kind
• 2:23:22
  Speaker 1: of kept the same tradition of conveying information. And again,
• 2:23:26
  Speaker 1: this has massive implications for human intelligence because even though
• 2:23:30
  Speaker 1: it's not a full language, the ability to convey information
• 2:23:34
  Speaker 1: in a symbolic way is a marker of really sophisticated intelligence.
• 2:23:38
  Speaker 1: And so it's another really interesting discovery that kind of
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 1: points towards intelligence. And also to maintain that tradition over
• 2:23:46
  Speaker 1: such a long length of time is really interesting because
• 2:23:50
  Speaker 1: we don't really do that. As I say, the oldest
• 2:23:52
  Speaker 1: language is ancient Chinese and it's only a few thousand
• 2:23:54
  Speaker 1: years old. And yet these people somehow managed to pass
• 2:23:57
  Speaker 1: on this language, quote unquote, for 30,000 years.
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 2: Have you ever heard anybody discuss the concept that human
• 2:24:05
  Speaker 2: beings might have had some sort of telepathy that atrophied
• 2:24:13
  Speaker 2: when we started using language and writing and communicating with words?
• 2:24:18
  Speaker 1: Well, what's really interesting is the human brain size has
• 2:24:20
  Speaker 1: decreased since Civilization began.
• 2:24:24
  Speaker 4: Uh-huh.
• 2:24:24
  Speaker 1: Which is strange because... And it makes sense because if
• 2:24:27
  Speaker 1: everything was oral before, you need more of your brain
• 2:24:29
  Speaker 1: to hold all the information. But once you can kind
• 2:24:32
  Speaker 1: of outsource it to physical objects, you don't need so
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 1: much brain, like, size and space.
• 2:24:40
  Speaker 2: How much has it decreased?
• 2:24:41
  Speaker 1: I can't remember off the top of my head. But it's...
• 2:24:43
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's even controversial. I think there's quite
• 2:24:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of evidence that the human brain size has
• 2:24:48
  Speaker 1: decreased a little bit in the last 10,000 years or whatever.
• 2:24:51
  Speaker 2: Well, what... Weren't like there was some ancient people that
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 2: thought writing was a bad idea and that you should
• 2:24:58
  Speaker 2: you should remember everything and that writing and writing things
• 2:25:02
  Speaker 2: down was actually going to degrade your memory.
• 2:25:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it certainly does, because you don't need
• 2:25:07
  Speaker 1: that brain like part of your brain anymore if you're
• 2:25:10
  Speaker 1: not memorizing all the information you have. Like, and it
• 2:25:12
  Speaker 1: makes us smart as a whole, as a civilization. Of course.
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 2: And then if you extrapolate, so do hard drives.
• 2:25:17
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 2:25:18
  Speaker 1: It's happening on an even bigger scale now with AI
• 2:25:21
  Speaker 1: and stuff like that.
• 2:25:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. Same process, though. Like, people talk about chat
• 2:25:25
  Speaker 2: GPT decreasing people's intelligence.
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 1: Well, because it outsources thinking itself, which is a crazy step.
• 2:25:30
  Speaker 2: And we're going to just go like a raisin. Exactly.
• 2:25:33
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, maybe we're regressing. But I think as
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 1: a civilization, we're learning more.
• 2:25:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, collectively.
• 2:25:41
  Speaker 1: But as the individual.
• 2:25:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:25:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe we're aggressive.
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 2: And our potential to learn and just remember things like
• 2:25:47
  Speaker 2: when I just from when I was a boy, I
• 2:25:48
  Speaker 2: knew everybody's phone number.
• 2:25:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 2:25:50
  Speaker 2: And now I don't know anybody. I know like three
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 2: people's phone numbers.
• 2:25:53
  Speaker 1: Because we don't have to memorize anymore.
• 2:25:55
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 2:25:55
  Speaker 1: It's wild.
• 2:25:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:25:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 2:25:57
  Speaker 1: And there was also another paper that came out regarding language,
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 1: which is they found over 200 objects. And it's around
• 2:26:05
  Speaker 1: the same date, around 40,000 years ago. And they basically
• 2:26:08
  Speaker 1: found like a proto-writing script that had the same level
• 2:26:10
  Speaker 1: of complexity as the early Sumerian scripts from 3000 BC,
• 2:26:14
  Speaker 1: but from 40,000 years ago in Ice Age Europe. Again,
• 2:26:18
  Speaker 1: so it's like another kind of proto-language, symbolic thinking and
• 2:26:24
  Speaker 1: conveying meaning through symbols. I don't know if, I can't
• 2:26:27
  Speaker 1: quite remember off the top of my head, Jamie, but
• 2:26:28
  Speaker 1: if you type in like, it was this year. So
• 2:26:31
  Speaker 1: if you type in P-N-A-S, proto-writing script, 40,000 years ago
• 2:26:37
  Speaker 1: or something. They found it like loads of like symbols
• 2:26:40
  Speaker 1: engraved on bones. And they argued that it was the
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 1: same level of complexity as the early Sumerian scripts. And again,
• 2:26:46
  Speaker 1: this was the marker of civilization 3000 BC, but now it's,
• 2:26:51
  Speaker 1: this capability is so much older now because of these
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 1: new discoveries.
• 2:26:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:26:54
  Speaker 2: I saw that. It's really weird. Like when you're looking
• 2:26:56
  Speaker 2: at the writing, like, okay, what are they like the
• 2:26:58
  Speaker 2: little scratches on the bones and clay and whatever it is.
• 2:27:02
  Speaker 2: What are they conveying? Do we even understand what they're
• 2:27:05
  Speaker 2: conveying or just assume they're conveying something?
• 2:27:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I think they categorized it and they seem to
• 2:27:11
  Speaker 1: think it is a kind of proto-script.
• 2:27:15
  Speaker 2: Fucking weird, man. Like that's a script?
• 2:27:19
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, like a proto-script. So like the kind of
• 2:27:21
  Speaker 1: thing that became language.
• 2:27:22
  Speaker 2: But Right, so there had to be a precursor to
• 2:27:24
  Speaker 2: the language.
• 2:27:25
  Speaker 1: A written language. But if it existed 40,000 years ago,
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 1: it's so much older than we used to think this
• 2:27:31
  Speaker 1: capability emerged.
• 2:27:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 1: And what does that kind of entail?
• 2:27:35
  Speaker 2: Can I see that again, Jamie, the images? How weird.
• 2:27:39
  Speaker 2: And so at the bottom, that looks a lot like cuneiform.
• 2:27:42
  Speaker 1: I think these ones are examples of the- More advanced.
• 2:27:44
  Speaker 1: But they're saying it's at the same level as this,
• 2:27:47
  Speaker 1: but 40,000 years ago, which is vastly older than cuneiform.
• 2:27:55
  Speaker 2: It's so interesting.
• 2:27:56
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 2:27:57
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you've seen the, we talked about this yesterday
• 2:27:59
  Speaker 2: as well, the Italian guy who came up with this
• 2:28:03
  Speaker 2: concept of erosion dating.
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 4: Oh, in the pyramids.
• 2:28:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's another weird one. It was like at the
• 2:28:11
  Speaker 2: high end, he thinks it might be 20 plus thousand
• 2:28:14
  Speaker 2: years old. It's like, okay, what? Yeah.
• 2:28:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because he compared the erosion. Because there was an
• 2:28:19
  Speaker 1: earthquake like 500 years ago that kind of shook all
• 2:28:21
  Speaker 1: these casing stones off.
• 2:28:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:28:22
  Speaker 1: And he compared the erosion to.
• 2:28:25
  Speaker 1: With the blocks that had always been exposed, with the
• 2:28:26
  Speaker 1: ones that had recently become exposed. And, yeah, he got
• 2:28:29
  Speaker 1: this date. I mean, I'd like to see that method, like,
• 2:28:32
  Speaker 1: tried and tested on sites we know the age of and,
• 2:28:34
  Speaker 1: you know, proven that way before I take that too seriously. But,
• 2:28:37
  Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting.
• 2:28:39
  Speaker 2: It's all interesting. Listen, your show is super interesting. I'm
• 2:28:43
  Speaker 2: so glad you're around. I'm so glad there's someone like
• 2:28:46
  Speaker 2: you that's willing to do that kind of work. Because, obviously,
• 2:28:48
  Speaker 2: Jamie and I are not going to do it. Not
• 2:28:51
  Speaker 2: this week. but we're super happy to have you in
• 2:28:54
  Speaker 2: anytime you've got some new stuff you want to talk about.
• 2:28:57
  Speaker 2: And I'm really excited that your channel just keeps growing
• 2:29:00
  Speaker 2: because it's really good, man. You can really tell you
• 2:29:02
  Speaker 2: put in so much work and so much effort and
• 2:29:04
  Speaker 2: research and it's just excellent. It's super entertaining and it's
• 2:29:08
  Speaker 2: right up my alley.
• 2:29:08
  Speaker 1: So I appreciate it, Joe.
• 2:29:10
  Speaker 2: Thanks for being the fucking man.
• 2:29:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you, man. We'll straight back at you. And I
• 2:29:14
  Speaker 1: really appreciate all the support you've shown me. Like it
• 2:29:16
  Speaker 1: doesn't go unnoticed, man. Like it, it really means a lot. And, uh, Yeah,
• 2:29:21
  Speaker 1: if I could just do a little self-plug real quick.
• 2:29:23
  Speaker 1: I've got my channel, Michael Button, search it up, everyone,
• 2:29:26
  Speaker 1: and check me out. But also, I just started a
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 1: second channel called Patterns of History because I'm really interested in,
• 2:29:33
  Speaker 1: once we move into recorded history, it's really interesting to
• 2:29:36
  Speaker 1: see how when the silence lifts and we have these
• 2:29:39
  Speaker 1: ruins we can cross-check and these dates we can kind
• 2:29:42
  Speaker 1: of match to different civilizations. It's so interesting how civilizations
• 2:29:46
  Speaker 1: seem to follow the same patterns all over the world
• 2:29:49
  Speaker 1: of rise, collapse, fall, and things like that. And it
• 2:29:52
  Speaker 1: applies today. I think we see the same patterns happening
• 2:29:55
  Speaker 1: and civilizations always think that they're more advanced and there
• 2:30:00
  Speaker 1: we go.
• 2:30:00
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 2:30:01
  Speaker 1: And better than the ones before. But I mean, it's
• 2:30:04
  Speaker 1: another fucking, I could go on for another three hours
• 2:30:06
  Speaker 1: on that, but it's so, it's so interesting how we
• 2:30:09
  Speaker 1: see the same recurring patterns happen throughout civilizations across recorded
• 2:30:13
  Speaker 1: history as well. So that's like another little project that I'm,
• 2:30:15
  Speaker 1: I'm working on, but I'm still a, I'm still going
• 2:30:18
  Speaker 1: to go as hard as I possibly can on the
• 2:30:20
  Speaker 1: kind of archaeological lost history side of things.
• 2:30:22
  Speaker 2: Well, it's beautiful that you have so much time to
• 2:30:24
  Speaker 2: do two different channels too. It's awesome.
• 2:30:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm trying my best.
• 2:30:28
  Speaker 2: Well, you're kicking ass, dude. Congratulations. It's awesome. Always great
• 2:30:31
  Speaker 2: to have you. Thank you for being here. One more time,
• 2:30:34
  Speaker 2: people want to see your channel. They want to find you.
• 2:30:36
  Speaker 2: What's the best place? I know you're on Spotify now
• 2:30:38
  Speaker 2: as well, right? So just audio?
• 2:30:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's the videos as well.
• 2:30:41
  Speaker 2: It's exactly the same.
• 2:30:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just put them up there so people can,
• 2:30:44
  Speaker 1: if people, some people prefer to listen, they let me
• 2:30:45
  Speaker 1: know that.
• 2:30:46
  Speaker 2: So I put it out there.
• 2:30:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:30:47
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I've got both my channels. I'm also about
• 2:30:49
  Speaker 1: to make some music.
• 2:30:50
  Speaker 2: People should check out my music.
• 2:30:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, really? Yeah, I'm in a band.
• 2:30:52
  Speaker 2: This is my band. Oh, that's the Alien Head?
• 2:30:54
  Speaker 1: That's why I keep wearing the Alien Head, yeah.
• 2:30:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, what's the name of your band?
• 2:30:57
  Speaker 1: We're called Headache. Can you get it? It's like the headache, yeah.
• 2:31:03
  Speaker 1: So people want to check that out.
• 2:31:04
  Speaker 2: What kind of music?
• 2:31:05
  Speaker 1: Punk rock.
• 2:31:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, you're a fucking punk rocker.
• 2:31:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, punk rocker, bro.
• 2:31:08
  Speaker 4: All right, dude.
• 2:31:09
  Speaker 1: I used to do that all the time and then
• 2:31:10
  Speaker 1: COVID kind of fucked us up and we couldn't perform
• 2:31:12
  Speaker 1: live and our drummer moved to Australia. But we're going
• 2:31:15
  Speaker 1: to try to make some music again in the near future, so.
• 2:31:17
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 2:31:18
  Speaker 1: Thisisheadache.com if people want to check that out.
• 2:31:21
  Speaker 2: But, yeah. Check it out. All right. Michael, thank you.
• 2:31:24
  Speaker 1: Appreciate it, Joe.
• 2:31:25
  Speaker 2: Look at that.
• 2:31:25
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 2:31:26
  Speaker 5: Get us on.
• 2:31:27
  Speaker 2: Moody-looking motherfuckers. Yeah, the boys. The guy in the back.
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 2: Get your hair out of your eyes, bro. Can't see
• 2:31:32
  Speaker 2: you like that. All right. Bye, everybody.
• 2:31:34
  Speaker 5: Bye.