Latest / Divorce Coaches Academy / Supporting Parents in Divorce: Acknowledging Children’s Experience and Why It Matters
Transcript
- Tracy Callahan: The way conflict is handled in divorce shapes everything that comes after for the clients and for the families they're part of. If this conversation gave you something to think about or bring into your work, that's exactly the point. If you are interested in deepening your skills or learning more about our training, you can find more at divorcecoachesacademy.com. This is the work and it matters. Welcome back to Divorce Coaches Academy. I'm Tracy and today's conversation sits at the intersection of divorce and conflict and something we honestly don't talk enough about with intention. And that's children's lived experience inside that process. In divorce, parents are often navigating legal decisions, financial uncertainty, and emotional strain along with a whole bunch of conflict. And in the midst of that, there is a well-intended instinct to protect children by minimizing what they see or feel. But what happens when protection becomes silence? What happens when a child's experience is real but unacknowledged? So today, I am joined by my dear friend and colleague, Carolyn Jacobs. Carolyn is a certified divorce and co-parenting coach, parenting plan mediator and writer. Her work focuses on helping clients prepare and navigate separation and divorce, strengthen conflict communication, and one of my favorite things, develop durable child-centered parenting plans. We are honored that she is a DCA certified ADR divorce coach and pre-mediation divorce coach. She's also a CDC certified divorce coach and has completed most in Guthrie's training and mediation as well as co-parenting specialist. Carolyn is also currently pursuing advanced graduate coursework and family dispute resolution. of course, in addition to her private practice, cause she doesn't got enough going on, she served on the board of directors for kids managing conflict, a non-profit. dedicated to strengthening peer mediation programs in K through 12 schools and contributes also as a mentor coach with DCA and evaluator. Carolyn's work speaks directly to a critical distinction, right? This difference between shielding children from conflict and unintentionally disconnecting from their reality. So today we're gonna talk about what it actually looks like for parents to acknowledge their child's experience without overburdening them. how this can build trust rather instability and why this moment in a family's life can also be an opportunity to model emotional honesty, self-awareness and the foundation of civil discourse. Carolyn, I know that was a mouthful, but welcome back to the DCA podcast. I'm so happy to have you here. Carolyn Jacobs: Thank you so much for that thoughtful introduction. And yes, you've touched on so many things that I care very, very much about and get excited to talk about. So I'm glad to be here. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, I'm so glad. I feel like we don't talk enough about parenting, but I really am so happy that we can bring this back around. So during separation and divorce, you have described two ways parents tend to approach their child's experience. Can you share more about what those look like in practice? What's happening here ⁓ as these parents are approaching children's experience? Carolyn Jacobs: So, you know, as you touched on at the opening, if a family is going through a major transition and separation, divorce, moving into a co-parenting only relationship as the family system, you know, the relationship between the parents, sadness, stress, these are things that would be appropriate in the parents. And the child is just, naturally likely to be picking up sort of what I often call the off gassing of that parent state. You know, we of course want to be thinking about emotional management and how we're moving through that. And that person is doing a hard thing, going through a difficult time. And so it's natural for it to be in the air to keep the analogy straight. Yeah. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Carolyn Jacobs: a really broadly stated way, ⁓ see parents sort of move toward two approaches. Again, ⁓ well intended, ⁓ coming from a ⁓ kind instinct to shield their child from ⁓ that parent's difficult emotions. ⁓ What might be sort of a... ⁓ nothing to see here or ⁓ rickety attempts to hold it together. And the challenge with that is that it can confuse or even undermine that child's of instinct or sense of what they're seeing to the actual feelings and experience they're having in their body and in their mind. ⁓ And then there is an approach where we find some Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Carolyn Jacobs: manner of acknowledging the reality that child may well be experiencing, which can be born of concern for themselves, concern for their parents, both of those things. And while that acknowledgement has enormous opportunity to build that child's understanding of conflict and emotional honesty and self-advocacy, frankly, it needs to be approached with the restraint and intention. ⁓ so as not to tip it into burdening the child. So if we're able to go in this acknowledging way, you know, considering how we're gonna do it. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, you know, we often talk about how children experience divorce through the eyes of their parents, right? And then there's this sort of confluence between a parent trying to protect that child, right, by shielding them from the emotional burden or the taxation, which we talk about, right? Children are not responsible for their parents' emotional experience, yet at the same time, right, creating often this disconnect. So how does this experience of what's happening connect to a child's own internal conflict experience? Because now what they're sensing versus what they're being told are not aligning, which is now creating internal conflict for that child, right? And they're trying to sort of get that straight or a line, how it fits up in this world. Carolyn Jacobs: Yeah. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: that they're experiencing right now. Carolyn Jacobs: Yeah, because we know that children are perceptive and ⁓ they if they sense strain and sadness, discomfort, change simply and the message again that they got is kind of like, ⁓ no, okay, bye, have a good day. I've got it. Everything's fine. ⁓ They have to reconcile those competing realities somehow. We want kids to trust their feelings. Tracy Callahan: You Hmm. Carolyn Jacobs: and ⁓ build connections between those raw pangs and their lived experience of the reference points, good and bad, as they move through the world without us. So when that same feeling comes up somewhere else in the world, sort of having the tools to navigate that, I feel a thing going on in this room, in this relationship, and... ⁓ sort of having some tools for how to navigate that. And honestly, I see when I work through these ideas with parents, I see relief, which, you know, in the first instances of doing so, that ⁓ was a pleasant surprise. And now it becomes sort of like a hope I have, which is I see this relief that comes into the parent when we explore Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Carolyn Jacobs: the strategies for better alignment in this sort of messy area with what can be looked at as emotionally honest, but still responsible adult parenting and sort of finding ways to bridge that gap. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yeah, I love that, right? Being able for that child to trust their own feelings, right? Unintentionally parents may, I hate to put the lingo around this, but unintentionally be gaslighting their children, right? In this experience, right? And I don't mean gaslighting in the, know, but unintentionally, right? In that effort to protect. right, did not, where, Carolyn Jacobs: I know, it's a strong one, it's a strong one. Yes, that's the difference between, you know, the original orientation of gaslighting is literally to drive someone crazy, which is of course never what we are doing as a parent. But the effect, yes, of going, I know I'm sitting here crying in front of you, but I'm totally fine. It's just plain old confusing. But it comes from a totally good place. It's like... Tracy Callahan: Yes. Yes. Right. Right. Yes. Carolyn Jacobs: my God, what am I? I can't make this this kid's problem. I also cannot stop crying. ⁓ do I do in this moment? And it's a really complicated question. Tracy Callahan: Right. Right, so as parents are navigating this, right, they're trying to see or relate to how this misunderstanding between trying to protect their child and perhaps unintentionally invalidating their own experience, right? So you point out that many parents try to hold it together for their kids, right? So we talked a little bit about it, but let's dive more into what that risk is when that effort Carolyn Jacobs: Bye. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tracy Callahan: rate crosses into presenting there's nothing to see here and how that sort of disrupts that child's internal experience. Carolyn Jacobs: Protecting children from conflict, a crucially important is not the same as protecting them from emotional truth. The danger of conflating those things is important to be aware of. So again, protecting children from conflict, we know is a good Tracy Callahan: Yes. Carolyn Jacobs: thing to be focused on when they're living among strained relationships, their parents, among two people that they love is not the same as protecting them from emotional truth. So again, if the child perceives stress, sadness, strain, change, ⁓ there's this mismatch if... Tracy Callahan: family. Carolyn Jacobs: the parent is not able to find some way to acknowledge the child's experience. It can even feel like a betrayal of that child's experience. that's a whole nother show as they say on Phil Donahue. ⁓ But, and the risk in that is that it, again, can sort of erode their trust and their intuition. ⁓ It also gets in the way of that emotional honesty connection with their parent. We want to feel this kind of connected closeness, this trust says, this doesn't need to be unspoken, it just needs to be spoken with intention. ⁓ A child can be protected from conflict and emotionally acknowledged at the same time is kind of the punchline of that. Tracy Callahan: going to gather. That's not an easy thing for parents to do. So, so how do we help clients say or find the language around for parents to effectively communicate those two things, right? I'm having a hard time in a way that models emotional honesty without placing an emotional weight on the child, because that is not easy. No. Carolyn Jacobs: Yes. It is not. It is not. No, it's not easy. It's not easy. It takes, you're doing a lot of things there. You're getting on us with your own self-awareness. Tracy Callahan: You literally are doing a lot. That's multi-layered process for sure and how to be able to Carolyn Jacobs: Yes, yes. So. To start at the end, parents can acknowledge that they're having a hard time or doing an uncomfortable thing and make clear that they have the support they need because that's where we don't want that child to end up feeling like there's a hole, right? right. So what I explore with clients is how, as a parent, can you validate your child's experience while also demonstrating your self-awareness Tracy Callahan: Hmm. or that they're responsible for it, right? Carolyn Jacobs: and your ability to and willingness to seek appropriate support. And that message might sound like when your child comes upon you you're or you're in a there, there, whether they actively ask you, are you OK? Or you seem sad or or if you just realize that you're not. spot on what they would normally expect on a Thursday morning while you're making breakfast to say, you know, I'm having a hard morning or I'm doing a hard thing today. And I want you to know I have my people. have adults that are appropriate to help me with that. Don't worry. I am not alone. I have, you know, and when we have those adults, when we have those professionals or whoever else in our support system is the right person, then we can say to our child, I've got my people and your only job is to share what feelings, whatever you're experiencing is bringing up for you. Whether those are feelings about how my feelings are affecting you, ⁓ whether those are your own feelings about what you know is changing or happening around, that's, I am giving you a job, that's the job. And then me, I've got my pupil. So this aims to convey that the child does not need to come to the parent's rescue, that that's not their job. It also models emotional honesty, mom saying, dad saying, yeah, you're not imagining this. ⁓ I'm under some stress. ⁓ And that I know how to engage support. And you should too, child. Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Carolyn Jacobs: this invites the child to ⁓ their hard time honestly, because you're saying, I'm gonna share my hard time honestly, will you please in return share your hard time honestly? ⁓ And then ⁓ ideally will share that with their parent, but they may need another trusted adult, whether that's ⁓ ⁓ therapist. And as the coach, that's our place also to unpack with our client. So to bring this back to, you know, the platform we're on here, which is speaking to coaches about practice opportunities, which is to say, okay, so let's go through this. You're going to, you're going to say to your kid, yeah, you know what, I'm having a hard time, but I've got people and here's what I would ask of you. You keep telling me how my feelings and your feelings are feeling for you. And then let's you and I client talk about. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Carolyn Jacobs: you know, do you sense that you're the, you're everything they need in that moment? Because what's their relationship like with your sister or with that person at school that you could reach out to and just say, Hey, would you, know, and so looking at how do we then expand their support system to just model all of this and bring all these skills in to their life. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, I mean, is it not truly modeling resiliency? It is. And life is hard, whether it's in the context of a separation or divorce that that family is experiencing, or it's just something else. Right? I mean, Carolyn Jacobs: Yes. And that's can be interesting is you wouldn't necessarily hide it if you are, you know, feel like if you dropped a jar of oily peanut butter glass jar of oily peanut butter on the kitchen floor and you were like, Oh God, I'm so going to be late. And there's no, can't. I got to wipe this up before the cat comes in and your kid came in and you wouldn't be like, what? Everything's Like, I get that we're dealing in a way more vulnerable space, but kind of just sort of How can you apply that thinking and then... Tracy Callahan: Well, it's that process, right? Yes. And I think it is, you know, it's a skill because it requires a level of awareness and involves, right? Our ability to sort of reflect and think about intention. What is my intention here? Right? I had this experience this morning, actually, right? I had a really, really bad morning and my daughter called and she said she heard it in my voice. Carolyn Jacobs: Bye. Hmm. Tracy Callahan: She's like, what's going on? And I started crying. And I told her what had transpired over the last 12 hours. And then I said, and she said, I'm so sorry, mom. And I said, thank you so much. I'm figuring it out. Carolyn Jacobs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Tracy Callahan: And so I was able to do those two things. wasn't transferring the burden of my emotional experience and what had happened. She was showing up, you know, she's older and we're going to talk a little bit about age differences. She's 22, so she's sort of an adult and was able to engage in that, but she's still, I am still the parent, right? And our roles are to not then shift. that parental role onto a child in which they feel they're responsible for taking care of you, yet at the same time creating that space to be able to be vulnerable and model resiliency and adversity for lots of conflicts that will happen in everybody's lives. So kind of developmentally, right, we were just talking about my 22 year old son, I think she will, you I. Carolyn Jacobs: Yes. you Tracy Callahan: I won't say it. No, I just... Carolyn Jacobs: No, I, but I feel, I, sorry, finish your question. But this real, child-being really matters to me. So go ahead. Tracy Callahan: Well, I'm just developmentally does this look different depending on a child's age, right? Are there any key differences that parents should be aware of supporting a younger child through this process versus an adolescent or young adult in this context? Because there are, there will always be our children, by the way. It doesn't matter what age they are, right? Carolyn Jacobs: Sure. Yes. Yes. the, you know, again, this is sort of, you know, it's going to shift in every family relationship and how you operate in your relationships with your adult children. Yet the basic principle. can be applicable across all ages, but it won't look the same with a seven-year-old as it does with a teen or, you know, in your experience with an adult child. ⁓ For example, I had a client last week. She returned to the marital home where she is not living, but to find some things, not quite how she expected them. And her emotions caught her off guard. And her seven year old child was a witness to that moment. And you know. and the child's, I can fix it. can make it, I can put it back in like, you know, one of these just crash moments. And, ⁓ you know, she did a beautiful job of saying, I'm happy, is this, yes, I'm having some feelings right now. I'm going to be okay. ⁓ And so in that moment, again, to look at that child and say, Yeah, that those are some big feelings coming up for me and I know exactly what I need to do about it. I'm going to make that plan, but that's not what we're to do right now. I've seen it. I've registered it. Let's, you know, think about what's next for you today. But I assure you that once we've got you off to school, I know what I need to take care of this. I know who will support me in that. know how to get what I need to be able to talk about it and figure it out. So I see you seeing me. I appreciate your love. Thank you. ⁓ And a really beautiful moment that I had with a client who has adult children, not dissimilar from your kids age, ⁓ was ⁓ away at school, is not present or really seeing the process of divorce unfold, but will call dad occasionally and like check in like, hey, how's things going with the divorce? And his, again, super well-meaning instinct was moving along, along, everything's fine. And when I say to him, how are you really, if you're telling me how you are, and he was like, I'm not good, right? Like, we have the honest conversation and we talked about what it would it feel like to say, I really appreciate the love and attention you're expressing when you call and check in on me. And that feels really good. And I care about how you're doing too. ⁓ You know, I am doing a really hard thing and there are moments where it's really difficult and I have a coach and I have my brother and I have all these people around me and that's their job. I... Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Carolyn Jacobs: I don't want you to feel like you can't ask. And I also want you to know that I've got my people. I can't say I've got it handled, but I certainly have the people that I need to support. Tracy Callahan: I love that. love that. So does it really significantly matter if it's like the age difference? mean, clearly language, right, may feel a little different, but I think the premise extends throughout whether they're seven years old or 25 years old. Carolyn Jacobs: Yes. Yes, and it may be that with a really little kid, again, I leave this to... ⁓ you know, with a little kid I could see there might be more demonstrating yourself off to do those things, right? ⁓ And ⁓ whereas with an adult you can have, especially if you've built the trust, you can have the dialogue that's reassuring. ⁓ you know, with younger kids you can talk and you can do and you can take that minute you need to gather yourself together ⁓ ⁓ up after school or ⁓ attendance in the bathroom to come back and say, okay, I did some of the things that my helpers taught me and I'm feeling ⁓ much better. How are you feeling? Right? And like coming back to it quickly and sort of making it really visible because ⁓ what repair it for younger. ⁓ Tracy Callahan: Mmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, yeah. And ⁓ one of the things, know, at DCA, we often sort of frame divorce conflict, right, as this communication breakdown than just rather this legal problem. So we kind of just talked a lot about this, right, this type of parent-child communication, shaping a child's broader ability to engage in relationships, conflict, and self-expression over time. So not only are we creating opportunities for emotional intelligence when our clients are prepared to be able to gain ⁓ effectively in conversations or dialogue, depending on what that looks like in sort of that ownership. ⁓ But how do you see that shaping that child's, right? Their ability to gain in their own relationships, right? Their ability to engage. productively and efficiently in conflict, as well as their strength, their confidence, and their own self-expression. Carolyn Jacobs: Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to answer that. And I also from, can't help, but like revisit the last question from the coaching perspective. I mean, we're talking about like, the way I answered it is kind of my instinct from what I know works with clients. I also would say like, to come back to it from the coaching perspective is to say, obviously in the coaching role, we're saying to a client. what have you noticed works with your kids when they're feeling worried or uneasy about something to help them shape their own way at reassuring that child. So when we were talking about how that might look with younger children, to also, to the coaches listening to say that in the question format for coaches is, okay, well, let's talk about how your kids tend to settle and get the assurance they need in an uneasy situation. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, we now for all of our divorce coaches, right? Working with parents in this discovery process, really, you know, kind of pulling back out to look in, to pull back out. How can we best support, right, that client who may realize now that they have been unintentionally minimizing their child's experiences? Is there a practical shift, right, that they Carolyn Jacobs: Mmm. Tracy Callahan: they can or a coach can work with a client so that they can sort of start, I want to say auto correcting, but making that shift to sort of dynamic or to minimize, right? It's never too late is what I always say for. Carolyn Jacobs: Great, yes, yes, great, great question and my consistent answer about this and similar related things. Go clean it up, go clean it up. Return to the moment with them and to sort of answer your last question and now this question together, I'll try and bring it all back together. You were asking about like what ⁓ this sort of broader conflict communication piece is, is there's a, this whole thing as an opportunity for parents to demonstrate the power of acknowledgement, curiosity, and intentional dialogue as opportunities for learning rather than risks, gamble, zero sum game, all these other things that make us very positional. And so that's, that answers your question about how this relates to conflict communication and dispute resolution. And so for those parents who are like, I haven't been doing that. Now you, you, you return to the moment and you do those things. You acknowledge, you can get curious. Hey, I, thinking back about yesterday, I'm not sure I like how I handled that, or maybe I'm realizing it might've been confusing, and get curious. ⁓ May I have the gift of hearing your feelings, even the yucky ones? How was that moment for you? I can handle it, even if it's yucky. ⁓ Start and start the dialogue. ⁓ And so, Tracy Callahan: Yes. Carolyn Jacobs: That is, it's how you clean it up and, and these principles of acknowledgement, curiosity and intentional dialogue are the pieces that take us through conflict communication and, you know, relational, productive relational efforts. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, that's really an opportunity, right? We talk about, and we're gonna kind of talk about your efforts in this, we have faulted, our society has faulted in our efforts to effectively support children in learning how to engage conflict. And as you're talking about this piece, right, this powerful connection. between curiosity, humility, emotional honesty, which are the foundational bearings, empathetic, cognitive empathy, right? Being able to understand somebody else's perspective without having to agree with it or just to be able to sit with it and understand it. This is inevitably shaping children's experience or capacity for engagement in civil discourse outside of the home. So that I wanna, as we're kind of winding down, really kind of bring this back to the work that you have intentionally been doing with your non-for-profit and ⁓ these really, really important conversations as part of. your efforts to support this non-for-profit of kids managing conflict. And you have a very exciting upcoming conversation with Dr. Michael, and I'm gonna do this right, Saeeni, Saeeni, Saeeni, focused on just this very thing of civil discourse and youth. And I was wondering if you can share a bit about Carolyn Jacobs: Saini. Tracy Callahan: what that conversation may explore and why this topic is so critical right now, not just for families and divorce, but how we as a society are preparing this next generation to navigate disagreement and difference. Carolyn Jacobs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You are correct that I am achingly inspired by this topic. ⁓ That these, again, we're gonna, just there, you can't say them enough, right? This curiosity, intellectual humility, emotional honesty, these principles that ⁓ allow for meaningful civil discourse share. Tracy Callahan: you Carolyn Jacobs: if not all, of the same principles as we're talking about in intimate relationships. ⁓ We know that humans being curious about another's perspective is powerful ⁓ in dangerously short supply in the most contentious ⁓ of humanity. ⁓ So, ⁓ know, hence my studies in dispute resolution, this is an area that really interests me. love applying it to families, but I can't help but, you know, zoom out and look at that in the world and help parents connect. The opportunity that they have ⁓ in the most challenging times are also the richest opportunities for parents to cultivate those muscles in their children that they will take far beyond the frame of the home and a family. So, you know, without certainly getting ahead of Dr. Saini because I that talk that conversation that contributes, ⁓ it's as part of a series called that I call conversations that contribute is meant to educate me along with the audience. And so I am I can't wait to have that conversation with him. We'll explore how cultivating those Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Carolyn Jacobs: things, that curiosity, ⁓ humility, and how those things work, why they matter. And then, ⁓ you know, this all comes to this linchpin, one of the perhaps trickier skills of them all, which is a capacity to remain in relationship. facing difficulty and difference. And whether that is with someone that we're at odds with or someone we're just having a difficult conversation with, and that's how that connects to this broad term of civil discourse. But how do you have a difficult conversation in the classroom, at a dinner, Tracy Callahan: Hmm. Carolyn Jacobs: party with different views on different flashpoint topics. so of course, it's hard to say to someone who's really struggling and going through a hard thing, ⁓ by the way, just thought I'd mention you have this enormous opportunity to grow your children's. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Carolyn Jacobs: capacity for difficult conversations and civil discourse. But ⁓ it kind of comes in organically as we do the work. I find that it is seen and appreciated and it's part of the nature of what we're doing. It's all one big, wonderful thing. Tracy Callahan: Yeah. Yes, yes. And I love your tagline for these events of conversations that contribute, right? Contribute to our own growth, our own understanding, our own awareness, our own ability to have an impact, which is what we're doing in essence with supporting families going through these experiences who are then also, even though we're not working directly with the children, their experience is impacting that child's experience. that, my friend, is a gift. ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ to really acknowledge and applaud your efforts to bring that to a larger audience. So how can people learn more about this conversation that contributes with Dr. Michael Saein? ⁓ getting it, Michael. ⁓ worry. ⁓ Carolyn Jacobs: See you. ⁓ Michael and I, well, I'll make it even greater. So if you visit my website, which is allyindivorce.com, under the events and merch tag tab, ⁓ that talk is at the top of the heap. It's on April 15th at 1 p.m. Pacific, so that's 4 p.m. Eastern, where Dr. Saini is because he is at the University of Toronto. ⁓ And so, yes, I like that the ideas of these talks are the paramount contributor and of course the very small $10 fee one pays to attend is contributing also to a nonprofit. So ⁓ that is, I'm super, super excited and would love to see. Tracy Callahan: Thanks. Carolyn Jacobs: make the time. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, and we'll be putting information about it in the show notes with a direct link to your website to be able to sign up. I have attended a couple at this point and have found them all to be extremely beneficial and love the opportunity for the dialogue. And I can't wait to listen to him. ⁓ Dr. Michael Caini is ⁓ really quite ⁓ a beautiful writer, has done some work and it's been at the forefront out of Canada really in his work with the Association of Family and Conselatory Courts and efforts in looking at family conflict and impact on children. So we want... Carolyn Jacobs: He's nothing short of brilliant. It's such an honor and a pleasure to be engaged with him on this topic. I mean, he's, ⁓ writer, brilliant human. And ⁓ I love talking to him and then everyone gets to talk to him. Tracy Callahan: Yeah, got to talk to him. So Carolyn, I want to thank you so much for being here. It is always a pleasure of getting to hear your insights and as you're supporting families and navigating conflict and supporting ⁓ challenging conflict communication situations that are highly emotionally engaged. But that's the work we do. So I want to thank I want to thank all of you for tuning in. Carolyn Jacobs: Thanks. Yeah. Tracy Callahan: at Divorce Coaches Academy podcast, please feel free to check us out at divorcecoachesacademy.com if you're interested in learning more about our trainings and how we work with individuals, professionals to do this work thanks, Carolyn. Carolyn Jacobs: Thank you so much for having me. I could talk about it all day, so I loved this conversation. Tracy Callahan: Wonderful. All right, thank you.