Latest / Credlin / Credlin | 7 September

Transcript

Credlin | 7 September · Credlin

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Good evening. Welcome to the program. Parliament back for a
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: fortnight is what's coming up tonight on Credlin. More questions
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: tonight over the warnings that went unheeded in the months
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: before the Bondi terror attack. ASIO Chief Mike Burgess revealing
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: his deep frustration that concerns were ignored just days after
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: whistleblowers revealed here on Credlin serious internal pressures inside the AFP.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: PLAS Defence veterans back in Canberra today fighting against Labor's
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: unfair attack on health services, laying down their service medals
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: as they demand action from the Albanese government. And the
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: fight to stop the flow of illegal tobacco into Australia.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Tony Burke in the House today declaring law enforcement's key.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: But what of those warnings from Border Force veterans that
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: staff cuts have left officers defenceless in the fight? And
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: One Nation doubling down on calls for reform to our
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: superannuation system. It's your money and it's set to become
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: a key battleground at the next election.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Well, who holds most of the superannuation funds? The unions.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: The union is associated with the Labor Party. So I'm
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: sure they don't want to see people access their money.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: We will stay with that issue because today in Canberra
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: there was a newer policy announcement from One Nation which
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: kicked superannuation back into the headlines. And the way the
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: debate played out gives you the best insight yet into
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: the ideological motivations of the left and the right when
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: it comes to this $ 4. 5 trillion pool of of our
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: national retirement savings. On the right, Coalition and One Nation
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: believe it's superannuation's your money. It's salary that you forego
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: now to be put aside for your retirement. Now, they
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: may disagree about how much you can access before you
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: retire and for what purpose, but there's no doubt that
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: they are not conflicted as to its ownership. Your super,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: your money. Labor, on the other hand, well, they speak
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: with a forked tongue. They like to crow about their
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: history as the party that introduced compulsory super. But for
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: the left of politics, superannuation has always been about what
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: they can do with your money rather than you. When
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Paul Keating created compulsory super back in 1992, his pitch
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: to the public was all about boosting incomes in retirement,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: about getting people off the pension and But his real
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: agenda was about finding a way to give Labor and
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: the unions a new power base. You see, Keating recognized
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: that with union membership in free fall, the days when
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: union bosses could thump the table and grind the country
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: to a halt were declining. In the 1970s, over 50%
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: of the workforce was in a union. Now it's just 7.9%
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: of workers in the private sector More, of course, if
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: we add in the public servants in the public sector,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: but even so, that's a massive drop. But all credit
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: to him, Keating saw this coming and he saw industry
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: super as a way to maintain and grow the influence
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: of unions. That's exactly what's happened. As more and more
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: workers had super and the pool of funds in super grew,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: as industry funds became the workplace default, they became more
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: and more influential. When they had money to invest, they
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: bought up blocks of shares in companies and then with
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: that shareholding weight, started to direct company policy. It's why
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: so many of the big companies today are just as
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: likely to spend money promoting the voice than to push
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: the Albanese government on their reckless spending or demand lifts
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: in productivity. It was a cunning plan at the time,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: but it's worked and it's transformed Labor's relationship with business
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: and So much so that Labor's now the party of
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: big business and it's the coalition that's the party of
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: the worker and small business. So enter One Nation today
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: ready to get into the superannuation fight with a policy
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: to allow people doing it tough to access more of
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: their money now and not just when they retire.
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: Those people that are working, are renters or paying a
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: mortgage will, by choice, can apply to their superannuation fund.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: to withdraw up to 3%, one quarter of their superannuation,
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: moving forward.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: This is the people's money. This is their money. This
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: is not the government's money. This is their money.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: If it comes to a point of someone being out
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: in the streets and living in a tent or can't
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: or on the cusp of losing their home, I would
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: rather see them get that help and assistance that they
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: need now, not later in life.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Well, almost immediately, the Treasurer went on the attack.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: Labor built super, we strengthened it, and now we will
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: have to defend it from those opposite. It is now
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: beyond any doubt that any coalition with one nation in
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: it will cut super. They will end super as we
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: know it and make Australians poorer as a consequence because
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: what they're proposing today means less money and less economic
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: security for Australians in retirements.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: At the heart of Chalmers Spray is Labor's view that
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: your superannuation is not your money, temporarily managed by others
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: for your benefit, but a national asset to be deployed
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: by the government in the service of what it considers
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: to be the national interest. So invested in things that
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: are important to Labor, their priorities, things like renewable energy
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: or affordable housing for people on welfare. So someone else's home,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: just not your home. And that's a real worry because
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: by far and away, the biggest insurance against poverty in
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: retirement is whether or not you own your own home.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Homeowners can live frugally on the pension. But if you're
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: trying to pay rent or a mortgage on the pension, well,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: it's near impossible. And that's the point that One Nation
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: was making today.
• 6:28
  Speaker 5: And if you lose your house, it's the best asset
• 6:30
  Speaker 5: you've got.
• 6:31
  Speaker 6: I mean.
• 6:31
  Speaker 5: Believe you me, sink or not, if you haven't got
• 6:34
  Speaker 5: a house later on in life and you're still having
• 6:35
  Speaker 5: to pay rent, you're in a vastly more precarious position
• 6:38
  Speaker 5: than a person.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Who owns a house.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: And by the way, Laura, not.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: Only has 66,000 people.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Got access to it, but they are on a tax
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: rate between 17% and 22%.
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: That's what Uncle Jim takes off them on the way out,
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: and he's the one talking about a threat to super.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: The reality is, with people starting to buy homes later...
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: With higher interest rates and house prices today and the
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: impact of divorce hitting couples as well, home ownership can
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: be just as precarious for older Australians as it can
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: be for first home buyers. Hence Hanson's announcement today. But
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: giving people access to more of their super would dilute
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: the power of industry funds. And because they pay money
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: to the unions and the unions donate money to the
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Labor Party, what One Nation wants to do Well, that
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: upsets the gravy train, doesn't it? In more ways than one.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: With their boards dominated by community activists and former union officials,
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: the industry funds have long been pushing public companies that
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: they invest in to walk away from things like coal
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: and gas and to push the left's social agenda as
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: much as turn a profit. See now why Labor hates
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: this as much as they do. And back to super's
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: original aim of getting people off the pension, well, even there,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: it hasn't been successful. After 34 years of compulsory super,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: so my entire working life, we've still got around upwards
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: of 75 or 80% of retirees accessing some sort of
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: pension or welfare support, at least two thirds of retirees. Now,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: I don't think One Nation's policy today has enough detail
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: out there. I don't think there's any modelling, for example,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: or specific information in it on the inflationary risk. But
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: as a concept, this will hit home to precisely the
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: sort of people they wanted to. People who have left
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: or are thinking of leaving Labor. But more than that,
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: as I've explained, it will terrify Labor insiders who build
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: a huge machine of power and influence off the back
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: of workers' money via industry super that will be left
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: thinking that it all might just come unstuck. The more
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: that Australians understand, they're just pawns here. That superannuation's never
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: been about them at all. That's perhaps why we're already
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: seeing ads like this pop up as a rearguard action
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: from the industry funds who want to protect their cosy world.
• 9:12
  Speaker 6: Watch out for clickbait ads designed to pull you away
• 9:15
  Speaker 6: from your super fund.
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: Thousands of Aussies have already lost large chunks of super
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: in collapse schemes.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: You don't want to be next.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Well, watch this space. There'll be more of those coming fast.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: All right, let's go to Canberra. As I said, it's
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: a Monday of a sitting fortnight, the first day at
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: the big house. Let's go there now. Political reporter Trudy
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: McIntosh with the headlines.
• 9:44
  Speaker 7: Federal Parliament's back with a bang. One Nation reignites a
• 9:48
  Speaker 7: fight over superannuation.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: This is the people's money. This is their money.
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: A full frontal attack on superannuation as a full frontal
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: attack on Australian workers.
• 9:59
  Speaker 7: One Nation is proposing to allow renters and mortgage holders
• 10:02
  Speaker 7: to divert 25% of their super contributions into their pocket
• 10:06
  Speaker 7: for up to three years.
• 10:07
  Speaker 5: How is that not just going to pump up inflation,
• 10:10
  Speaker 5: keep rates high and hurt the people you're.
• 10:11
  Speaker 8: Trying to help?
• 10:12
  Speaker 5: It's neutral.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: It's neutral. So you're not going to pump up inflation
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: with it at all.
• 10:17
  Speaker 7: Labor is under pressure again to dump the controversial Allied
• 10:20
  Speaker 7: Health Cap for veterans. Outside Parliament, veterans who served our
• 10:24
  Speaker 7: nation lay down their medals.
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: But the promises these medals represent cannot be honoured in
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: ceremony and then abandoned in policy.
• 10:33
  Speaker 7: Later, meeting with Minister Matt Keogh, calling for the $ 5, 000
• 10:36
  Speaker 7: limit on veterans' Allied Health treatments to be dumped.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Leaving that meeting, I felt disappointed. To be honest, I
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: feel kind of betrayed. The battle has only just begun
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: and Minister Keogh should know that.
• 10:48
  Speaker 7: And social media giants could soon be forced to allow
• 10:51
  Speaker 7: Australians to opt out of algorithms.
• 10:53
  Speaker 9: I definitely want Australians to have more choice over their
• 10:56
  Speaker 9: feeds than what they currently have.
• 10:57
  Speaker 7: The full details of the so-called digital duty of care
• 11:00
  Speaker 7: reforms are yet to be revealed.
• 11:03
  Speaker 6: This minister or the government or the prime minister control
• 11:07
  Speaker 6: my algorithms or anyone's algorithms?
• 11:09
  Speaker 5: Well, there's a lot of questions.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: To answer in that.
• 11:11
  Speaker 7: The Greens are pushing for a tougher opt-in approach. These
• 11:15
  Speaker 7: toxic algorithms have been designed to be addictive. Trudy McIntosh,
• 11:19
  Speaker 7: News 24, Canberra.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Well, if I'm honest, it was a pretty flat start
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: to the sitting fortnight today. A few important issues around,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: but nobody was landing much of a punch at all
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: in question time. Here to discuss this and more, News24
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: political contributor Chris Ullman. As I said, a flat sort
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: of news day, flat sort of parliament. This afternoon, Labor
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: was trying to hold ground over those budget tax changes
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: and the crisis that the Prime Minister and Jim Chalmers
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: have inflicted on housing. Claire O'Neill, the housing minister who
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: failed upwards after buggering things up with Home Affairs, well,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: she said the downturn is an opportunity for Australians. In
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: the nine years those opposite were in power, house prices
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: in Sydney almost doubled, Speaker, in nine years. We have
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: seen house prices grow by about 50% in the last
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: six years, Speaker. Now that's the context that's really important
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: here and I know that those opposite don't have anything
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: sensible to say about this. I tell you what, Chris,
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: if I was in the tactics committee for the coalition,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: I'd be getting her on her feet as often as
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: possible in as many question times as possible because I
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: think she's really struggling. I mean, this whole set of
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: budget changes on housing are a lemon. I don't know
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: how they keep selling a lemon.
• 12:39
  Speaker 6: Well, Peter, there's two things going on here which makes
• 12:41
  Speaker 6: it very confusing and All the way up to the budget,
• 12:45
  Speaker 6: the government was talking about making houses more affordable, and
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: that's what you assume it was trying to do with
• 12:50
  Speaker 6: the cuts to negative gearing. But it also wants to
• 12:53
  Speaker 6: send the message that nobody's house is going to drop
• 12:55
  Speaker 6: in value. Now, those two things cannot possibly be true
• 12:58
  Speaker 6: at the same time. Then we had a mess of
• 13:00
  Speaker 6: other policies and interest rate rises, which, of course... is
• 13:04
  Speaker 6: making it difficult for anyone who wants to enter the
• 13:06
  Speaker 6: housing market at the moment. So, yeah, there's an absolute
• 13:09
  Speaker 6: confusion in the government's own messaging. It should really just
• 13:12
  Speaker 6: lean into the fact that we were trying to bring
• 13:15
  Speaker 6: down the price of houses and at least then the
• 13:18
  Speaker 6: message would be clear. But then, of course, the problem
• 13:20
  Speaker 6: that they've got is with all those people who own
• 13:22
  Speaker 6: houses and the value of those houses is falling and
• 13:25
  Speaker 6: the houses that people actually want to buy, well, they're
• 13:27
  Speaker 6: not falling much in price anyway.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: So it's the worst of all possible worlds, really. And
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: the numbers don't work out, right? Ross Green was saying
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: the other day, you've got about 12 million dwellings in
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: this country. All of those are own or part-owned, so
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: no one wants to be paying off something that's losing
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: value or own something that's losing value, vis-a-vis about 150,000
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: people trying to get into the market. Well, look at
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: those raw numbers. You really are pissing off a hell
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: of a lot more Australians if their greatest assets starting
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: to fall in value and the ones trying to get
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: in at the same time that they're copying higher interest rates.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: We're told by all the banks at the mortgage book
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: they're writing less loans, so they're not going out there
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: in the market. And you've got this stagnation on the
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: clearances over the weekend of auctions, about 54% in Victoria,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: about 20% and 30% in places in New South Wales
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: and Queensland. I mean, the market is very, very sluggish.
• 14:27
  Speaker 6: Yeah, the other issue you've got is one of the
• 14:28
  Speaker 6: other policies you had meant that people could borrow more.
• 14:33
  Speaker 6: borrow more on a house before they bought it, which
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: means that those people are the ones who, if you
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: were recently into the marketplace, then the price of your
• 14:41
  Speaker 6: house is now worth less than.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: What you paid for it.
• 14:44
  Speaker 6: So you've got negative equity, which makes people really concerned
• 14:47
  Speaker 6: about everything else in their lives, which makes them worry
• 14:50
  Speaker 6: about spending more money in the real economy. So, yeah,
• 14:54
  Speaker 6: what we've got here is a whole lot of policy
• 14:55
  Speaker 6: confusion from the Labor Party, which has landed us really
• 14:59
  Speaker 6: in the worst possible place. and will have an effect
• 15:01
  Speaker 6: on the entire economy.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: I'm worried about this digital duty of care. I mean,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: it's one thing to put in rules for those under
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: the age of 16 and what they can access, although
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: I might add there's been no big fines for all
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: the talk levelled on big tech. But now we've got
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: a conversation that the government wants to have an algorithm
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: regime for adults about what we can see, what we
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: can read, the access of information that we might have
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: from here and overseas. So little detail, Chris, but what
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: concerns me is when government gets in the way of
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: information flows, there's always an ulterior motive.
• 15:44
  Speaker 6: Yeah, Peter, and again, there's two things going on here, right?
• 15:47
  Speaker 6: If I get the opportunity to opt in or opt
• 15:49
  Speaker 6: out of algorithms, well, that's my device, my choice, and
• 15:52
  Speaker 6: I can kind of get the idea on that. But
• 15:55
  Speaker 6: there's more to this digital duty of care. And that
• 15:57
  Speaker 6: is that at some stage, the government wants to decide
• 16:00
  Speaker 6: what big tech should be allowed to show us. And
• 16:03
  Speaker 6: then we get into the whole area of misinformation and
• 16:09
  Speaker 6: disinformation and a government deciding or the e-safety commissioner deciding
• 16:13
  Speaker 6: what those things are, what constitutes harm. And that's where
• 16:17
  Speaker 6: I have the real issue. So I think that out
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: the front of this, like so many things, is something
• 16:21
  Speaker 6: that might well sound good. Look, yeah, I could get
• 16:23
  Speaker 6: to decide myself about algorithms. But no, what lies beneath
• 16:27
  Speaker 6: all of this is the government deciding who gets to
• 16:29
  Speaker 6: see what inside Australia. And that, as ever, is where
• 16:32
  Speaker 6: all the danger really lies.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: And I'll use the example during the voice debate, Chris,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: when I got hold of an FOI about the full extent,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: you know, all 26 pages of the Uluru Statement to
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the Heart. And I put it out here on this
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: program and I wrote about it. And I was Taken
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: off Facebook, it was removed from a whole lot of
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: social media platforms. We all had to sort of sign
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: up to the Prime Minister's view that it was just
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: a gracious thing to do. It was a one-page poster. Well,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: it was not. We fought it. The lawyers here in
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: News 24 fought it and we were able to speak
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: our mind and put that information out there. As I said,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: information from the government via an FOI, but that's what
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: will come, guarantee you, that is what will come if
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: this stuff becomes law.
• 17:19
  Speaker 6: And Peter, do you have to have much of an
• 17:21
  Speaker 6: imagination to think that at some stage the crime against
• 17:25
  Speaker 6: the climate is going to be to say that you
• 17:27
  Speaker 6: don't like the government's energy policies, that that will be classified.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: As misinformation and disinformation? Spot on, Chris.
• 17:33
  Speaker 6: And we know that's where we're going.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Well, that was the Climate Change Authority late last week.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: You know, they were critical about anyone talking about the
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: impact of climate policy on electricity prices or reliability for
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the grid. They even made a reference that they don't
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: like the debate about renewables in regional communities either.
• 17:54
  Speaker 6: Yeah, no, this is absolutely where this is heading. So
• 17:56
  Speaker 6: that's why it disturbs me. Can I say as an
• 17:59
  Speaker 6: overall principle, I'm a libertarian, right? I think that we
• 18:02
  Speaker 6: should have as much free information as possible in a
• 18:04
  Speaker 6: society and we should debate all these things out. And
• 18:07
  Speaker 6: can I say the thing that disturbs me most about
• 18:10
  Speaker 6: Australian politics is the only difference between left and right
• 18:13
  Speaker 6: nowadays are the things that they want to ban. I
• 18:16
  Speaker 6: don't think people should burn the Australian flag. Do I
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: think it should be banned?
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: No.
• 18:20
  Speaker 6: I don't think that the federal government should be telling
• 18:22
  Speaker 6: us what constitutes misinformation and disinformation because from what I
• 18:25
  Speaker 6: can see and where I stand, most of the misinformation
• 18:28
  Speaker 6: I see comes out of the government and its authorities.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm a bit with you on the flag
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: and I look to see those groups that do ban it.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: And I think that tells me everything I need to
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: know about them. It helps me make my decision as
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: to why I mightn't support their cause or I might
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: think that they're dubious in their arguments. Just quickly, Super,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm a little bit younger than you, but
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: we're in the same era. We both probably... Everyone's a
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: little bit younger than me nowadays. Yeah, well, I said
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: a little bit. It is a little bit. But we've
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: basically had super for most of our working life. The
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: whole pitch of Keating all those years ago was that
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: you get to retirement age and there would be less
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: of a call on the pension. Well, there's not much
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: less call on the pensions. Two thirds of Australians do
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: require the pension. You've got then this cash cow for
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: the left. You know, the industry super funds are all powerful.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: They buy big whacks of companies. They basically tell companies
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: what to do. There's a money go round that comes
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: out of industry super funds to the unions and across
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: to the Labor Party as a donation. I think Hanson's,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: you know, found something with this topic. I think it's
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: a good one to exploit. Not enough detail out there,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: but this will really disturb Labor. And you can see
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: how quick they've come out today to sort of whip
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: it up into some sort of fight.
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: Well, the short story.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: She's got it right, right?
• 19:51
  Speaker 6: It's our money. What happens is that we get 12%
• 19:53
  Speaker 6: of our wage garnish sheet and told that we're not
• 19:55
  Speaker 6: allowed to touch it until the age of 65. Now,
• 19:58
  Speaker 6: what's magic about the number 12%? Well, there was a
• 20:00
  Speaker 6: debate over that for ages. So why not 9%? Why
• 20:03
  Speaker 6: not be able to get some of it before you
• 20:05
  Speaker 6: hit retirement, if what you're going to do is an
• 20:07
  Speaker 6: investment in your house, well, that's a very good investment.
• 20:09
  Speaker 6: We all know that. So she has got a powerful
• 20:12
  Speaker 6: argument here. I think a lot of people will give
• 20:15
  Speaker 6: a head nod and any idea that it's an attack
• 20:18
  Speaker 6: on the superannuation system and it will destroy it is
• 20:21
  Speaker 6: a whole lot of puff and nonsense. But again, as
• 20:24
  Speaker 6: I say, misinformation and disinformation seems to be the daily
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: fare of this government.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: All right. I want you to Go abroad with me
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: for a moment. That significant decision electorally in Germany, a
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: huge win here for the far-right party AFD, Alternative for Germany. Yes,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: it's at a state level. Yes, AFD looks like it
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: will fall short, although counting's continuing, to get the absolute
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: majority it needs to govern in its own right. But
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: this is seismic, Chris.
• 20:56
  Speaker 6: 44% of the vote is a huge amount of the vote.
• 21:01
  Speaker 6: And won't it be telling if it cannot form government
• 21:03
  Speaker 6: because all of the other parties of government have decided
• 21:06
  Speaker 6: that they will have a firewall, which is the policy
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: in Germany, where they won't accept even the vote of
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: the AFD on policies that they agree with. So that
• 21:17
  Speaker 6: party is in the best position to form government, except
• 21:19
  Speaker 6: it now needs probably 5% or 6% of what's left
• 21:23
  Speaker 6: from some minor party to be able to make government work.
• 21:27
  Speaker 6: So Yes, it is a seismic change in Germany, but
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: look at all the things that are driving it. Migration,
• 21:34
  Speaker 6: cost of living, look around the world and where we
• 21:37
  Speaker 6: see the rise of these parties, it is the failure
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: of other parties within government to give people anything like
• 21:45
  Speaker 6: the things that they care about, to talk about the
• 21:47
  Speaker 6: things that matter to them, to say things that have
• 21:50
  Speaker 6: meaning to them. So there's a reason why there's a
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: rise of the right. It's a complete failure on the left.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: And, of course, we had Merkel, if you remember not
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: so long ago, crowing about letting into Germany one million
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: undocumented arrivals that came in via southern Europe.
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: With Angela Merkel, I think that history will see her
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: as one of the worst leaders that Europe has ever had.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 22:16
  Speaker 6: Because she put energy policy into gas from Russia. She
• 22:20
  Speaker 6: trusted foreign policy that nothing would change with the Russians.
• 22:24
  Speaker 6: She decided that she would have a migration policy that
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: allowed a million people to march into the country. And
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: she had an energy policy where she started to rely
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: on wind and solar and shut down nuclear at the
• 22:35
  Speaker 6: same time. So if you fail on energy... If you
• 22:38
  Speaker 6: fail on foreign policy, if you fail on national security,
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: how can you be a credible leader or have any
• 22:44
  Speaker 6: kind of legacy other than she left Germany in an
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: absolutely disastrous state? And if we learn anything, we should learn,
• 22:52
  Speaker 6: don't do what she did.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: I'll leave it there. Thank you, Chris. Of course, at
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: the end of the week, we've got to September 11.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Have something to say about that on Thursday on the eve,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: but I'm also reminded too there was a Hamburg cell,
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: the most significant terror cell coming out of Germany involved
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: in September 11. I think there's a lot of problems
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: there and they're getting manifest worse by the moment. All right,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: now to the fallout from Revelations last week to me
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: by an AFP whistleblower that things were bad inside the
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: AFP for some time, inside counterterrorism. He puts in a submission,
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: yet he is not called as a witness to the
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Royal Commission. And this was all well ahead of the
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: terror attack in Bondi last December. It follows warnings from
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: ASIO boss Mike Burgess, who says he was also deeply
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: frustrated that his warnings also went ignored. Alex Kawana is
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: the President of the Union, which represents AFP police officers.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: I had him on the program briefly on Thursday. but
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: I wanted to get him back tonight, Alex. Thank you
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: for your time. We mentioned last week that the union
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: warned the Albanese government a month before the terror attack
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: that the AFP was suffering, quote, chronic and worsening shortages
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: of counter-terrorism officers. What prompted you to make such a
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: dire warning to government at the time? And what was
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: government's response to you?
• 24:21
  Speaker 10: Thank you for having me, Peter. Look, we warn the
• 24:23
  Speaker 10: government purely based on the funding that the AFP was receiving.
• 24:27
  Speaker 10: And there comes a time where AFP members can't continue
• 24:31
  Speaker 10: to do more with less. And no AFP member is
• 24:33
  Speaker 10: going to say no to a job, particularly when it
• 24:35
  Speaker 10: comes to national security or the safety of Australians. So
• 24:39
  Speaker 10: they were putting members in a really difficult position where
• 24:42
  Speaker 10: we don't have the funding or the capability to be
• 24:45
  Speaker 10: able to prevent some of these crimes.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: So I've had a lot of people come forward from
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: that original whistleblower now, Alex. I've received a number of
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: emails and things have been fed in and I'm not,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: I suspect, saying anything that you haven't heard directly from
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: your members. They feel, this is particularly the uniform counter-terrorism
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: police at the end of, I guess, the front line
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: of things. They feel let down by the system and
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: the command in the AFP. They feel that out of
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: this terror attack in Sydney, they're likely to be the
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: ones that wear the blame, even though they weren't getting
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: the resourcing they needed, the staffing positions were left vacant
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: and the warnings were made. This has a lot of
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: hallmarks to me, Alex, in relation to the Brereton report.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: You know, senior brass in the Defence Department get let
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: off but the ordinary soldier is the one facing the scrutiny.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: And I fear your members fear that they are the
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: ones facing the scrutiny in this Royal Commission. Is that fair?
• 25:51
  Speaker 10: Look, it's not fair that the members face the scrutiny.
• 25:54
  Speaker 10: Certainly the government had a big part to play when
• 25:57
  Speaker 10: it comes to funding and the capability gaps due to
• 25:59
  Speaker 10: the funding. We're the lowest paid police force in Australia
• 26:02
  Speaker 10: and we, like every other police force in Australia, we
• 26:05
  Speaker 10: are suffering from the shortage of police officers and On
• 26:09
  Speaker 10: top of that, the government continues to cut the funding
• 26:13
  Speaker 10: to the AFP. So the AFP bosses are actively telling
• 26:17
  Speaker 10: people it's OK to say no to jobs. Who wants
• 26:20
  Speaker 10: to say no to a job where it could be
• 26:22
  Speaker 10: something as grave as what happened at Bondi? Nobody wants
• 26:26
  Speaker 10: to do it because they're worried about the scrutiny, both
• 26:28
  Speaker 10: internally and externally. So there comes a point where Government
• 26:32
  Speaker 10: needs to look at what they're doing. Are we getting
• 26:35
  Speaker 10: the correct amount of money for the job that the
• 26:37
  Speaker 10: government and the community wants the AFP to do?
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Well, we heard from Tony Burke today. He expects the
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: AFP to basically solve the problem of the government's making
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: in relation to illicit tobacco gangs and the fire bombings
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: that we're seeing in Victoria as a result of of
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: crime gangs basically running the trade now, a multi-billion dollar trade.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Just on the AFPA, the AFPA, your association, you made
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: a submission to the Royal Commission but I'm told you
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: were not called. Were you given a reason why you
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: were not called to give evidence?
• 27:13
  Speaker 10: No, we weren't given a reason. I suspect it's because
• 27:15
  Speaker 10: there were much more prominent people that they wanted to
• 27:18
  Speaker 10: speak to but we weren't given a reason.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Well, who's more prominent than the union who represents the
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: AFP officers who are at the front line of Australia's
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: counter-terrorism response?
• 27:31
  Speaker 10: Look, it's a good question. We would have been happy
• 27:37
  Speaker 10: to provide evidence at that Royal Commission.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: So they can call Netball Australia, but not the boss
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: of the AFP. I mean, Chrissie Barrett has not given
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: public evidence. Does that surprise you?
• 27:51
  Speaker 10: Look, I'm not surprised. I don't know what the remit
• 27:57
  Speaker 10: of the Royal Commission is if it's not to question
• 28:00
  Speaker 10: both the brass or the leaders of the AFP, of
• 28:03
  Speaker 10: New South Wales Police, ask me questions, what my members
• 28:07
  Speaker 10: are feeling and how they were feeling at the time.
• 28:09
  Speaker 10: I really think that I don't want to slander anybody
• 28:14
  Speaker 10: from the Royal Commission, but I think it's really important
• 28:17
  Speaker 10: for transparency that that all of these people, we're all heard,
• 28:20
  Speaker 10: we all have an opportunity to put something forward that
• 28:23
  Speaker 10: they can consider. I don't think that what Commissioner Barrett
• 28:27
  Speaker 10: would be putting forward, same as Commissioner Lanyon, what he
• 28:30
  Speaker 10: would be putting forward, I don't think any of that
• 28:32
  Speaker 10: would be irrelevant. I think it would be very relevant.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: In my time working in Canberra, Alex, I've got a
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: bit of an understanding of what your officers do in counter-terrorism,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: particularly those that are undercover. And I listened carefully to
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: those comments from Mike Burgess, the ASIO boss, to say
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: that he warned the government and the government didn't listen.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Morale must be pretty flat after the events of last year.
• 28:57
  Speaker 10: Look, morale has been pretty flat for a little while.
• 29:01
  Speaker 10: We continually get asked to do more and the government
• 29:03
  Speaker 10: continues to to give the AFP more tasks to do,
• 29:07
  Speaker 10: but we're not seeing the increase in funding. We did
• 29:10
  Speaker 10: hear about Minister Burke wanting the AFP to solve the
• 29:14
  Speaker 10: problems with the illicit tobacco trade. We can't say yes
• 29:17
  Speaker 10: to that. We can't do that without a significant injection
• 29:20
  Speaker 10: in that space. And we're not just talking about an
• 29:23
  Speaker 10: injection of funds. We need resources, we need capability, we
• 29:26
  Speaker 10: need technology. It comes with a whole gamut of things where.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: We can't just.
• 29:32
  Speaker 10: turn a switch and it happened overnight. It takes some
• 29:34
  Speaker 10: time to build up to that capability. So I think
• 29:37
  Speaker 10: it's having a significant effect. Well, I know it's having
• 29:40
  Speaker 10: a significant effect on my members. Psychosocially, members are putting
• 29:43
  Speaker 10: in more hours away from their families than ever before
• 29:46
  Speaker 10: in order to keep the Australian community safe. And they're
• 29:49
  Speaker 10: not feeling as though they're getting the respect or the
• 29:52
  Speaker 10: love that they need from the government for that.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Thank you for your frank comments, Alex Kawana. Thank you
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: again for joining me Thursday night and again tonight. All right,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: after the break, I'll get into those comments from the
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: ASIO boss, Mike Burgess, in a moment, but also veterans.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: I tell you, when you see them lay down their
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: medals out the front of Parliament House because they cannot
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: accept the government's changes to their allied health, well, it
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: says everything, doesn't it? That minister's still in his job, though.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Good on the Prime Minister. After the break. Welcome back. Well,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: you heard that conversation just before with the AFP union
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: about police at the front line of the illicit tobacco fight. Well,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: border force too. Staff are raising the alarm on staff
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: cuts and their inability to fight the illegal trade. The
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: treasurer says, got to all do more, doesn't he? But
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: now to those revelations from ASIO boss, Mike Burgess, revealing
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: his profound frustration that repeated warnings about the threat of
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: antisemitism have that it posed to Australia prior to Bondi
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: went unheeded. He says he was concerned about the trajectory
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: of Australia's threat environment and he made it known publicly. Now,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: it's a matter of deep regret, he says, but security
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: was a shared responsibility. Others should have taken up the
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: call for action. So they should have. Joining me now
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: to discuss this and more, veteran Veteran, of course, and
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Shadow Minister for Defence Personnel, Phil Thompson. Phil, we know
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: we went from probability of, sorry, a possibility of a
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: terror attack in the lead up to probable, so possible
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: to probable. Probable is basically all but likely. And Burgess
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: says he made his concerns known to government, but not
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: enough was done and not enough was listened to from
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: the head of our Domestic Intelligence Authority, What does that
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: say to you?
• 31:49
  Speaker 11: It says it's been a complete failure of government. And
• 31:53
  Speaker 11: Mike Burgess said that he said it publicly. He made
• 31:56
  Speaker 11: his comments public. Well, he also would have said it
• 31:59
  Speaker 11: privately to his minister and to the government. And for
• 32:04
  Speaker 11: him now to say that it's regrettable and more action
• 32:07
  Speaker 11: should have been taken, that is all well and good,
• 32:10
  Speaker 11: but people lost their lives. People were killed. Now, there
• 32:12
  Speaker 11: needs to be very transparent recollection of exactly what was
• 32:17
  Speaker 11: said to government and why they didn't do what they
• 32:20
  Speaker 11: were told. And if they did do everything they think
• 32:23
  Speaker 11: they should have, then where was the failure? Because we
• 32:25
  Speaker 11: shouldn't be seeing terrorist attacks happen on our shores.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, Burgess, at least front of the Royal Commission,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: the head of the AFP was not called to give
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: public evidence. The Prime Minister hasn't been there, the Home
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Affairs Minister, the Attorney-General, no state or federal police minister either.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: How is that credible?
• 32:44
  Speaker 11: It's not, and it doesn't paint a transparency of the
• 32:48
  Speaker 11: government at all. And the Prime Minister, through all of
• 32:51
  Speaker 11: his ministers, including the head of the AFP, should be
• 32:56
  Speaker 11: fronting a Royal Commission because they must answer stuff under oath,
• 33:00
  Speaker 11: they must tell the truth, and the Australian people deserve
• 33:02
  Speaker 11: answers to understand exactly what occurred, what knowledge was passed
• 33:07
  Speaker 11: on and where the failure was because not just the victims'
• 33:11
  Speaker 11: families deserve to hear that, but also the Australian public
• 33:15
  Speaker 11: should have faith in its security agencies, the AFP, as
• 33:19
  Speaker 11: well as their government.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: And sadly.
• 33:22
  Speaker 11: We're seeing more and more people around the country lose
• 33:24
  Speaker 11: faith of politicians, of their government, because of acts like this.
• 33:29
  Speaker 11: The Prime Minister should be saying, I will be there
• 33:31
  Speaker 11: and my ministers will be there and we'll be fronting up,
• 33:34
  Speaker 11: sitting down, and that's what leadership is.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Morrison, Turnbull, Gillard, Rudd, John Howard, all of them
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: have fronted a Royal Commission when asked. They've made themselves available.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: And we're not talking about losses of life there broadly.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: We were, of course, with Pink Bat. Sadly, three young
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: men lost their lives. But this is a terror attack,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: the worst ever terror attack, our shortest ever or one
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: of our shortest ever royal commissions, and no-one who really
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: makes the big calls, who allocates the resources, who makes
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: the decisions, has fronted.
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: It just.
• 34:10
  Speaker 11: It's unfathomable because... The Prime Minister, he should be leading
• 34:13
  Speaker 11: the charge in leadership here and he needs to face
• 34:17
  Speaker 11: up to a Royal Commission and answer hard questions and
• 34:20
  Speaker 11: we need to find out exactly what's happening. A terror
• 34:22
  Speaker 11: attack at this scale anywhere in the world would have
• 34:26
  Speaker 11: scrutiny all over it and I don't care what colour
• 34:29
  Speaker 11: shirt is in politics. If you're the leader of the
• 34:33
  Speaker 11: day and you're in charge.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: You front up. Spot on. All right, well, talk to
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: me about your veterans out today. the front of Parliament House,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: I think it's heartbreaking to see veterans put their medals down,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: that they can't with pride wear those medals that we
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: as Australians want to give to them, to honour them,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: to decorate them for their service, but they're down there
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: on the ground because they don't have faith with the
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: politicians in that building and the way in which they've
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: promised them the world on deployment and then treat them
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: like rubbish when they need them most. It breaks my heart.
• 35:10
  Speaker 11: To see veterans and family members stand out at the
• 35:14
  Speaker 11: front of Parliament House and place their medals.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: On the ground.
• 35:17
  Speaker 11: But it's that serious. We're talking about this cap, $ 5, 000
• 35:22
  Speaker 11: cap for allied health. I honestly believe people will die
• 35:25
  Speaker 11: because of this. And the Prime Minister, in all of
• 35:29
  Speaker 11: his statements, doesn't answer the question. The Minister for Veterans
• 35:33
  Speaker 11: Affairs is clearly out of his depth and shouldn't hold
• 35:35
  Speaker 11: the position. But once again, we're seeing a failure of
• 35:38
  Speaker 11: leadership from the Prime Minister. He should sack the Minister
• 35:41
  Speaker 11: and scrap the cap. But right now, we've got veterans
• 35:44
  Speaker 11: travelling on their own purse, their own money, or from
• 35:47
  Speaker 11: all around the country to come.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Here and beg.
• 35:49
  Speaker 11: And that shouldn't be happening because less we forget is
• 35:52
  Speaker 11: more than words to me.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: It's a commitment. This is not going away, is it? No,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: and nor should it. Good on you, mate. And just quickly,
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the announcement yesterday from the Coalition, penalties for burning the flag,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: for desecrating war memorials, and also, I think, really importantly,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: enshrining January 26 in law as Australia's National Day.
• 36:18
  Speaker 11: I've been trying to get the flag burning to be
• 36:21
  Speaker 11: a criminal offence now for several years from the back
• 36:25
  Speaker 11: end of government all through opposition, and so I'm really
• 36:28
  Speaker 11: glad we've put this bill together, enshrining Australia Day. It's
• 36:31
  Speaker 11: an important day for our nation, making sure that if
• 36:34
  Speaker 11: you desecrate.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: Our war memorials, you will be punished.
• 36:37
  Speaker 11: And we need to start having some national pride here,
• 36:40
  Speaker 11: and this is what this bill will do.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Just quickly, give me the argument why not being able
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: to burn the flag... and I don't like the flag
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: being burned, is not an infringement on free speech. Because
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: the argument on the other side from libertarians is it's
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: an infringement on free speech. Shouldn't happen. We don't like
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: to see it happen. But that is a right in
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: a free country. Give me the alternative argument.
• 37:06
  Speaker 11: So I don't think free speech goes to burning of
• 37:09
  Speaker 11: a flag, graffitiing a war memorial. I think that is
• 37:13
  Speaker 11: too far. We drape the Australian flag over the coffins
• 37:17
  Speaker 11: of those that have been killed in battle. This means
• 37:20
  Speaker 11: something to our nation and it's also a flag that
• 37:23
  Speaker 11: is much more than fabric. It brings us together. It's
• 37:27
  Speaker 11: what glues us. So I think you can have your
• 37:29
  Speaker 11: free speech, you can be upset, you can say what
• 37:31
  Speaker 11: you need to do, you can protest and march, but
• 37:33
  Speaker 11: you can't put torch to our flag.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Powerfully said, Phil Thompson. Thank you. All right, after the break,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: the One Nation leader, Pauline Hanson, and her embattled Victorian
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: leader will talk to James Ashby and more. And we'll
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: also look at this issue of a breakdown at the
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: borders with staff, not enough of them, keeping us safe.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: We'll get to those claims in relation to the one
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: leader in Victoria about historic drug use claims. Claims, that's
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: all they are now. But let's go now to warnings
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: from veteran Australian Border Force officers who said understaffing, the
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: loss of experienced staff and weak intelligence capabilities have crippled
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: the government's fight against illicit tobacco. despite more than $ 350
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: million in funding. In Question Time today, Tony Burke tried
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: to tell us that law enforcement not cutting the excise
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: was key to ending organised crime.
• 38:33
  Speaker 6: You still have a massive price differential between what organised
• 38:37
  Speaker 6: crime are able to do.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: And what would be available in a shop.
• 38:42
  Speaker 6: That is why the way to deal with this has
• 38:45
  Speaker 6: to be through law enforcement.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: I think he needs to get out of his office
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: and get into a tobacco shop like I have in
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: recent days. And, yeah, you'll see what's really happening out
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: there in Australia. Here to discuss this and more, journalist
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: at The Australian, Mohamed Al-Farez. Mohamed, thank you for your time.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: This is your story. And I was staggered that so
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: many insiders in the border force area have become so
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: open about the critical staff shortages and the frontline resourcing
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: being cut. This is damning for the government.
• 39:19
  Speaker 5: Well, the problem is that claim of, you know, tracking
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: organised crime, it doesn't really line up with what law
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: enforcement itself is saying. The Australian Border Force has, you know,
• 39:33
  Speaker 5: recently told an inquiry that enforcement alone cannot solve this
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: tobacco problem. And, you know, the Australian Federal Police Federation
• 39:43
  Speaker 5: also warned that police can't simply arrest their way out
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: of this crisis. And, you know, They're saying the underlying
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: policy settings, including the tobacco excise, have to be addressed.
• 39:54
  Speaker 5: So if the government genuinely says it's taking advice from
• 39:58
  Speaker 5: law enforcement, the question is, how does it reconcile that
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: with the repeated warnings from those agencies that enforcement on
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: its own isn't going to work?
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's all the stuff that you had in
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: your story, insiders blowing the whistle, but it's everything we
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: see on the news most nights. I mean, if you
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: live in Victoria, there's a fire bombing at least once
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: or twice a week. We've got whole shopping strips being
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: taken out. We've got now... Allegations of people being contract
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: killed in New South Wales are wrong individuals being killed.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: We're told the money's being parceled out to young people
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: who are taking on these jobs and it all goes
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: back to the movement of drugs and the movement of
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: illicit tobacco and organised crime. Yeah, that's right.
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: And, you know, the evidence is what's happening right now.
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: We've had years of increasingly strong enforcement, yet the illicit
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: tobacco market is still thriving, crime is rising, and we're
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: seeing more firebombings. And, you know, it's 300 firebombings this year,
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: over the year, sorry. So the question is whether we
• 41:09
  Speaker 5: keep doing more of the same and expecting a different result.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: Last time I spoke to you, we talked about Dr Jihad,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: of course, a man imprisoned with connections to ISIS in Iraq,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: and you reported on, I think it was him and
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: another 12, 13 all-up Australians there. There was a story
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: last week that he's about to face what we think
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: will be a mass trial in Iraq and that Baghdad
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: is urging countries to, quote, take responsibility for their nationals.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: So does this mean.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: That if he is, let's say, sentenced, he'll come back
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: to Australia to serve his sentence. If he's released, he'll
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: ask to come back to Australia. Have you got an
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: update for us?
• 41:55
  Speaker 8: So last we've heard is that Iraq has finalised their
• 42:00
  Speaker 8: investigations into more than 5,700 ISIS suspects, and among those,
• 42:06
  Speaker 8: of course, are what we believe is 13 Australians.
• 42:10
  Speaker 5: Now, whether Dr Jihad receives a death sentence, we know
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: where Australia stands with capital punishment. So potentially that could
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: lead to an intervention. But what we do know is
• 42:22
  Speaker 5: that the embassy in Iraq is following these cases closely. And,
• 42:29
  Speaker 5: you know, we expect these trials to happen soon and
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: we're keeping a very close eye on it.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll look for your byline in the Australian, Mohamed,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: and we're like, We'll follow it then and have you
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: back on the program. Thank you for your time again tonight.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: All right, after the break, we'll get to those allegations
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: against One Nation Leader after the break with James Ashby.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: But the academics warning on migration. He says you have
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: to stop people from applying onshore to change their visa type. Well,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I've been saying that for a couple of years. Bring
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: it on. My panel after the break. Let's get straight
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: into it with my panel. Let's bring them in. Former
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Liberal MP Nicole Flint and One Nation Nationals Director now,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: James Ashby. Well, let's go to the issues around Warren
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Pickering today, if I can. Lawyers have been called in
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: to defend One Nation's Victorian leader after his former partner
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: of 18 years accused him of taking illicit drugs when
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: they were together. His ex-partner's testimony has been described as
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: unreliable by lawyers and Mr Pickering denies these historical... Will
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: James put this into context 20 or so years ago
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: and he has lived a big life after he left
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: this partner? Are these reasonable questions? Do people deserve him
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: to deal with them and respond and perhaps get them
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: out of the way?
• 44:00
  Speaker 12: Well, as you know, some of these are difficult to
• 44:02
  Speaker 12: respond to because of the family law court and I
• 44:05
  Speaker 12: don't want to be found in contempt. I don't think
• 44:06
  Speaker 12: you do either. because a lot of these allegations were
• 44:11
  Speaker 12: put before the family law court some decades ago. And
• 44:15
  Speaker 12: you have to consider he was given sole custody of
• 44:19
  Speaker 12: the kids. So courts don't typically give men sole custody
• 44:24
  Speaker 12: of their daughter or the two youngest kids there for
• 44:27
  Speaker 12: a period. You know, he's had this delivered twice from
• 44:31
  Speaker 12: a judge where he's had that sole custody. So And
• 44:35
  Speaker 12: I will say this as well. Our Defence Force, he
• 44:39
  Speaker 12: spent a long time in defence. He's been negatively, what's
• 44:44
  Speaker 12: the terminology they use there?
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Negative vetting.
• 44:47
  Speaker 12: So he's been through all that process. He's well trusted
• 44:51
  Speaker 12: by our Defence Force. Why shouldn't One Nation and the
• 44:54
  Speaker 12: people of Victoria trust this man?
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Good point. And I will concur with you on negative vetting.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: If there's something there, they certainly pick that up and
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: deal with it. Nicole, I think more broadly, if people
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: are upfront about their history, I think the world's very
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: different now and people live a life in social media
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: and many things before they run in politics. I look
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: at the case of the Secret Harbour by-election there where
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: the gym owner you know, had a colourful past, if
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: I can call it that. But a lot of voters
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: are saying, well, not much different than me. And I
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: want someone like me to represent me in the parliament.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Do you think this matters as much anymore?
• 45:32
  Speaker 9: Well, I'd make three points about this, Peter. First of all,
• 45:35
  Speaker 9: these are really serious allegations and obviously they are allegations.
• 45:40
  Speaker 9: One nation, like all political parties, has challenges when it
• 45:43
  Speaker 9: comes to vetting people. It's one of the biggest challenges,
• 45:46
  Speaker 9: I think, when you're dealing with candidates. Secondly, I would
• 45:50
  Speaker 9: also say I think that it's up to voters and
• 45:53
  Speaker 9: voters will make the decision, they'll read the stories, they'll
• 45:55
  Speaker 9: make up their own minds and choose who they think
• 45:57
  Speaker 9: is best to represent them. But what I would like
• 46:00
  Speaker 9: to see... in every single state parliament and the federal
• 46:04
  Speaker 9: parliament every single day for every single person walking into
• 46:08
  Speaker 9: those buildings is drug testing for illegal drugs because there
• 46:13
  Speaker 9: is no place for drugs in our parliaments.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: James, what do you think of that one?
• 46:20
  Speaker 12: Yeah, 100%. I agree. The amount of drunks we've got
• 46:23
  Speaker 12: on our parliament floor at a federal level and state level,
• 46:26
  Speaker 12: they shouldn't be in that condition when passing legislation. So
• 46:30
  Speaker 12: I 100% agree. If you want to be a politician,
• 46:32
  Speaker 12: you should be randomly drug tested on a regular basis.
• 46:35
  Speaker 12: And it's a lottery. Pull the names out of a
• 46:37
  Speaker 12: hat and off you go. I reckon there'd be quite
• 46:40
  Speaker 12: a few that fail at a federal and state level.
• 46:42
  Speaker 12: And the problem is a lot of this drug use
• 46:45
  Speaker 12: we wouldn't even know is going on because it's everywhere
• 46:49
  Speaker 12: in society today.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: And we know that.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 46:51
  Speaker 12: Because they're doing tests of our sewage treatment plants regularly.
• 46:56
  Speaker 12: And we're finding the wealthier the suburb, the more expensive
• 46:59
  Speaker 12: drugs that are being used, the lower socioeconomic suburbs, yeah,
• 47:03
  Speaker 12: you're finding a lot of pot and smack and other
• 47:06
  Speaker 12: different drugs out there. So, look, society is awash with
• 47:10
  Speaker 12: this stuff. I'd love to get it off the streets altogether.
• 47:13
  Speaker 12: And I think that if you ask Warren Pickering, he's
• 47:15
  Speaker 12: the same. Look, I don't know too many people. I'll
• 47:19
  Speaker 12: be honest with you. I haven't tried marijuana when I
• 47:21
  Speaker 12: was 15.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Am I an angel? No, I'm not.
• 47:23
  Speaker 12: And I reckon most people, if they're honest with themselves,
• 47:26
  Speaker 12: will say, yeah, I might have tried drugs when I
• 47:28
  Speaker 12: was younger. It's a different story when you're in your
• 47:31
  Speaker 12: 40s and you've lived two decades working for defence and
• 47:36
  Speaker 12: living a moral life. We do silly things as kids
• 47:40
  Speaker 12: or as young adults. I'm not suggesting anyone's perfect. I
• 47:43
  Speaker 12: don't think anyone on this panel's perfect. So, look, I
• 47:46
  Speaker 12: think that's the difference between One Nation and the other parties.
• 47:50
  Speaker 12: We'll at least fess up to that.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: All right, I will admit to never trying drugs, so
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: I don't think we should shame anyone who's been, you know,
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: on the right side of some of these illicit things.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: But anyway, let's go to the Daily Telegraph story. Ben
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Robert Smith's lawyers, they are costing a lot less, Nicole,
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: than the Commonwealth lawyers in the same trial. I smell
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: a rat here. Absolutely.
• 48:17
  Speaker 9: The Commonwealth is supposed to be a model litigant. They
• 48:20
  Speaker 9: are not supposed to out-muscle people who do not have
• 48:24
  Speaker 9: the same resources. And so not only is it a day-by-day,
• 48:29
  Speaker 9: un-level playing field, it's also the fact that the Commonwealth
• 48:32
  Speaker 9: has spent, what, $ 300 million pursuing one of our most
• 48:36
  Speaker 9: decorated war heroes. It is an absolute disgrace, and we've
• 48:39
  Speaker 9: seen this too much from the Albanese government. whether it's
• 48:42
  Speaker 9: Linda Reynolds, Fiona Brown and now Ben Robert Smith, it
• 48:45
  Speaker 9: is disgusting and we should actually legislate to prevent the
• 48:48
  Speaker 9: Commonwealth from doing this to individuals.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: I will leave it there. I'm out of time. Thank
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: you to you both. And I want to send condolences
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: to the wonderful Katzenbarnes family. Kiralee, you see her here
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: every Thursday. She lost her beautiful husband, Peter, at the
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: end of last week. He was a parliamentarian in Victoria
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: and in WA. I'll have something more to say about
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: that tomorrow. That's it. Here's the BOM program.