Latest / Project Podcast / The future of nuclear energy in the UK

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The future of nuclear energy in the UK · Project Podcast

0:14
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
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the project profession. My name is Emma Devita, and I'm
0:21
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
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today. In this podcast, we're tackling
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the future of nuclear energy and I'm joined by three guests who
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were all working at the very forefront of developments within
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the UK and further afield. We have Nigel Khan, the joint MD
0:37
of Sizewell C, who has 45 years of nuclear experience under his
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belt, working at every level and on numerous types of reactor.
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We also have Carol Tansley, Vice President for Projects for X
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Energy, an advanced nuclear reactor and fuel company that
0:53
designs small modular reactors. And finally, we have Stuart
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McLaren, Head of nuclear energy Sector Director at WSP, who
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joined the consultancy earlier this year.
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I just want to begin by saying welcome to all of you.
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Thank you for sparing your time to talk to APM Podcast.
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A nice way to start perhaps would be if you could tell us a
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little bit about yourselves, a very brief overview of your
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current responsibilities and kind of what you're working on
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right now. So perhaps Nigel can can we
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start with you? Sure.
1:27
I'm Nigel Can. I'm the joint managing director
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of Size will See. So Size will see is the second
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of a series of EPR construction projects in in the UK and
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Suffolk. And at the moment, you know, we,
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we've gone through all our kind of planning, design, financing
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and we're now into full scale construction activities at the
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site. OK.
1:52
Thank you. And Carol?
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I'm Carol Tansley. I'm the Vice President of
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projects at X Energy. We are the designer and
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developer of an advanced small modular reactor, the XC 100 and
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the fuel that powers it are Trisox pebbles, which look like
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this. And I am currently based in
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Rockville, MD, our headquarters in the United States.
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As well as looking after our overall portfolio of projects,
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I'm currently also acting as the project Control Centre Director
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on our first project with Dow Chemical.
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We're building A4 pack of our Xe 100 plants at their seed drift
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site in Texas and I'm leading that.
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OK, great. And and Stuart, tell us a bit
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about your role. Yeah.
2:39
So I'm the head of nuclear here at WSP.
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So I'm sort of responsible for looking at the whole of our
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nuclear sector across the whole value chain.
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So whether it's the fuel cycle, new build generations of the
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existing power stations and all across the waste and
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decommissioning space. And I guess you know, what's
2:58
keeping us busy at the minute is size, well, the, the big GW sort
3:02
of developments. But, but, and some of the really
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exciting stuff around SMRS, AMRS and just seeing how the nuclear
3:09
sector is really evolving and how we're having to react to
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that as, as the supply chain to, to these amazing projects.
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So really exciting time to be involved in this sector.
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So I think it's exciting times for this country's nuclear
3:27
future. I think Energy Secretary Ed
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Miliband said it was EU KS golden age of nuclear energy
3:35
dawning. And are we to believe him?
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Yes, well, yes. So having just been involved in
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two sort of the GW projects, I think, I think for nuclear, the
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opportunity really is to kind of look into the future really as
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to what energy demand looks like.
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And I think both the Gigawalt projects I, I've been involved
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in have really been focused on stabilisation of the grid and
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making sure you've got big spinning magnets when you've got
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kind of lots of renewables on the grid.
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And, but I think the future really lies within more kind of
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embedded nuclear generation around data centres around, you
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know, potentially supply and other big demands across, across
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the UK. And then, and then really, I
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mean, we've faced 2 challenges really.
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One around energy security. So I think, you know, there's a
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small island need to make sure that, you know, we're in control
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of our own energy supplies. And the secondly, we need to
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make it affordable and we need to make it fit for purpose.
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I, you know, we, we provide what the customer needs.
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So, you know, if you're going to build big data centres right
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near, you know, nuclear, nuclear potentially right next to big
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populations, then then you need the right technology to do that.
4:52
OK. And and Nigel, you've been in
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nuclear so 45 years around that, is that true that long?
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I've yeah, I did start very young, I have to say that.
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Yeah. Yeah, I know.
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So I've seen, I mean, I've seen the industry change a lot.
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I mean, I joined a Magnox Rector down in Dungeness.
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I it was a 16 year old apprentice and you know, and
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I've I've, I've gone, I've worked on pretty much every
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technology that's survivor in the UK.
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So I was, I've worked on Agls both as a station director and a
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plant manager and also the PWR outsizable as the plant
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managers. So yeah, I've seen the whole of
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what the UK industry has to offer.
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OK. I'll come back to you on that.
5:36
If I may, I would just like to add to what Nigel said.
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I mean, I, I think there's been a, a huge change just in even
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the last 10 to 15 years. I, I've only been in the nuclear
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sector since 2014 when I joined the Baraka project in the United
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Arab Emirates. And when I first moved into
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nuclear then I had so many people say to me, why on earth
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would you want to get into nuclear?
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You know, it's a dying sector and I think it's probably the
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most vibrant growing sector now. And as Nigel said, you know,
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energy security, the net 0 imperative, AI and cloud
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computing's all driven this. And I think as well, you know,
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also back to your point about are we in a golden age of
6:20
nuclear? I think we're seeing huge
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commitment from the government in the UK, governments around
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the world, the US, Canada, and I think it's one of the sectors
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that has genuine by parties and support.
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And I think, you know, we've seen in the UK, as we've seen
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with sizeable seers, Nigel will be very well aware government
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commitment to investment in that, as well as the selection
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of the Rolls Royce SMR. And I think the key now is what
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we really need to see is a way for the government to give
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private investors confidence to unlock the private capital to
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help us with fleets of of reactors.
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Because that is, you know, as Nigel said, the spinning magnets
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in in order to get the kind of reliable base load that we need
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and the capacity we need. That is really the key to that.
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So I think certainly from my perspective, I would say I think
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we're on the cusp of a golden era, but we're not quite in it
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yet. But all all the signs are
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positive and I think everybody's very optimistic about it.
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I, I completely agree with that. And I, you know, this is a
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really exciting time and it does feel very different from before,
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not least because nuclear and sort of someones turn the, the
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volume up on it. But there's new technologies.
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It's, it's a much more diversified portfolio of
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solution and how it can be applied, which is a real step
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change to what's probably gone on from the previous few
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decades. But I guess within that I think
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there is and I think you may be alluding to it is the challenge
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of delivery like the golden age only gets realised if we can
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actually deliver to the business case.
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The business case is going to be founded on a certain return on
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investment on on assurance of cost schedule programme and
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particularly in the UK you know, we've seen that this this big
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complex infrastructure programmes, critical
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infrastructure solutions, they're really hard to deliver.
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And I think it's incumbent on everybody in the entire
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ecosystem to be pulling together to make sure that we can find
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the delivery models to de risk the critical paths on these
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really important programmes so we can get to that fleet and
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actually prove that these things can be done.
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And that's on the backdrop, I think of international
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competition for all of this, this there's there's increasing
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increasingly stiff competition for resources, for technology,
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for investment. Like from an investor's
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perspective, there is a challenge of where my, where's
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the easiest place for me to make my money when it will be those
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that have managed to crack the delivery model and can stand
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these things up faster and faster.
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So I, again, to me, it's exciting.
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I really want to see this happen like deeply, deeply for so many
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reasons. And I think that means we all
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have to come together and look at this very differently.
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And if we feel like how we're turning up and delivering feels
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like how we were delivering things 10 or 15 years ago, then
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we're probably doing it wrong. And that's that to me is sort of
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the litmus of are we, are we sort of heading in the right
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direction? Is there much collaboration, is
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there much kind of talking amongst different players in
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this field to, to to kind of get to grips with the delivery
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problems that have beset kind of major projects like this?
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So from my perspective, yes, because I, I think, you know, to
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the point that was just made there, I think we, we recognise
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that this is a sector wide challenge and individual
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companies are not going to crack it on their own.
9:55
I think there's, you know, we've seen huge commitment from the
9:57
government. It's, you know, we, we need some
10:00
of the policies to, to follow on some of the commitments.
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Now from a finance point of view, you know, and I'm sure you
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know, colleagues at WSP are at the point end of things of
10:09
trying to grow the supply chain. I mean, one of the, one of the
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challenges we've got here is that we haven't had a pipeline
10:16
of new bills to keep our supply chain exercise.
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We haven't had them for decades. And now we've got to work
10:23
together with the government as the sector to build that supply
10:27
chain. But the, the point here is as
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well about delivery model and that is on the individual
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companies to work. But we need to find these models
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where we can collaborate, we can bring all of the partners to
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work together to solve the problems.
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And I think one of the ways that we need to do that is by looking
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at what's not only been successful in alcoholic, the
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Asian context in getting to the fleet, the the ends of a kind
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and the benefits that they've managed to accrue, but what we
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can learn from other sectors. And I think there's also a
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matter of making sure that we're looking at best in practise
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delivery models. But we are being, we are
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focusing relentlessly on execution about for example, not
11:11
creating problems for ourselves by starting execution before the
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designs complete. You know, there are some
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fundamental things that we need to get right here.
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But we also need to make sure that we are focusing not just on
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the first first of a kind or first in country projects and
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delivering that acceptable cost and time, but also that there is
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a clear and demonstrable learning curve to bring the cost
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down. The timing to get the real
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benefits from the fleet approach for the economy, for the supply
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chain, for the the customer at the end of the day.
11:46
Thanks, Karen. Nigel, what do you, how would
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you respond to that? This is the dilemma that Vices
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saw really, I guess for us, there's two things really.
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I think there could be more collaboration between various
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nuclear utilities. There's a thing we've seen as
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see ourselves a little bit as competitors, you know, and I
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think we should, we should probably look at that.
12:07
I think there's also a realisation that that the first
12:11
of a kind of any reactor type is really quite difficult because
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you have to build a supply chain so that you you nucleus quite
12:18
unique really. And it's kind of design
12:20
sequence, which generally has to involve a supply chain.
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Because you know, if you're going to do a civil structure,
12:26
you need to know how much equipment's going to weigh and
12:28
where it's where it's going to connect connections are you
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going to be. If you're going to do a
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mechanical electrical design, you need to know the loads of
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the equipment you're going to connect to.
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So you you got this kind of perverse sort of step by step
12:38
design approach where you have to engage eventually a supply
12:41
chain that's going to provide the equipment and materials that
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you need. And to do that, you know, for
12:47
the first of a kind is really quite difficult to do.
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But once you've done that, you know, building another one and
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another one and another one becomes much easier.
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And then you can really focus in on what you can do as far as,
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you know, efficiencies, effectiveness.
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I have a big say in here at at size.
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We'll see is that yeah, I don't want to change the what I'm
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building, but I absolutely want to interrogate the how.
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You know, I want to do more modularization.
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I want to do more factory work. I want to do more off site.
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I want to, you know, explore where I I can help.
13:19
I want to explore all these things in the how I don't want
13:23
to build a different power station because I'll be but
13:25
start and you know, you know, with all of this, you really,
13:30
really hope that you know, you know, both the X energy, you
13:34
know, the Rolls Royce SMR, etcetera.
13:36
You know, gets that first of a kind off the thing and just
13:38
accepts, you know that that's going to be quite difficult.
13:41
But but you know, the opportunity then to build, have
13:44
a plan that you're going to build a series of these things.
13:46
You know, will give the industry confidence, they'll give the
13:49
supply chain confidence and that'll help us build the scares
13:51
we need as well. Is is that something you've
13:53
taken from Hinckley as well that you're bringing to Site R?
13:58
Well, well, as I say, Hinckley, you know, pioneered is the first
14:02
of a kind. So you know it it kind of has
14:04
created the supply chain, it's qualified the equipment for us.
14:07
We haven't got any of that pain that we went through.
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You know, I personally was at in two Point C So you know, the
14:13
benefit that really benefits us, that's ours.
14:16
We'll see. And it'll be exactly the same
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for other technologies, whether it's SMRS or IMRS, you know,
14:22
just you need to accept the first one's quite difficult.
14:25
And then that'd be that to not build more than it's almost
14:29
criminal because you've you've got all the rest of success.
14:32
So you kind of got that recipe for success, but it's something
14:36
I know Professor Ben Flubier has written about and is quite keen
14:39
on this, that idea of modularity and always, you know,
14:42
replicating within reason what's been done before because it's
14:46
efficient and it works and you know, the risks with it.
14:49
Is that something that is, is that part part of kind of
14:52
futures success once once you've done that kind of first of kind
14:56
and moving on from? There that fleets into what I
14:58
said. So to modulize you need the
14:59
design. I have the design.
15:01
If you've almost nearly built one before, because you as I
15:04
say, you need the supply chain, you need the equipment and then
15:07
you can really modulize, you know, so I agree, but but that
15:10
can only be it can't be done at first of a kind.
15:13
It's almost impossible. So much as you know, when I was
15:16
the delivery director, I think I'd love to have modulized more,
15:20
but designers? Impossible.
15:22
Yeah, and I would agree with that.
15:24
And I think that the key to the modularization is having the
15:27
standardisation. The two things go hand in hand.
15:31
And it can't just be about the standard reactor design.
15:34
It's got to be about a standard, you know, project delivery
15:37
model. And I think that's what Nigel
15:39
was saying there about, you know, interrogating the how it's
15:42
got to be the whole thing, the whole project delivery playbook,
15:46
if you like about that, just become repeatable.
15:49
And with that repeatability, you get the learning by doing.
15:52
And that's where you get the efficiency gains and and and
15:55
travel the path from the first of a kind to the end of a kind.
15:59
Yeah. And if I can add, like obviously
16:01
where I sit in the supply chain, there's a lot of the roles that
16:07
we all take is sort of helping the delivery of the sort of like
16:11
try and move as much through the critical path, move stuff off of
16:14
the critical path. And as we were saying, sort of
16:16
with a, when you're looking at the benefits realisation of this
16:20
being contingent on fleet and actually getting to scale and
16:24
that replication that you can have that all established, you
16:27
can move to standardisation, then they're the sort of
16:31
outcomes that we need to stay. And Nigel, you sort of mentioned
16:35
about you want to look at how can AI help, how can sort of
16:38
digital modularization, DFMA, how can we really ramp that up
16:42
to a point that when you're on the 3rd, 4th, fifth one, like
16:45
the whole of the supply chain is singing.
16:48
But we've also then got to look at like commercial innovation as
16:51
well. Because obviously, again, I sort
16:53
of say from a supply chain, I'm not.
16:54
And this isn't me speaking on, but you can see the tension
16:58
within that it's in, it's like a vested interest of people for
17:02
these programmes to take longer because if the contracts are set
17:04
up such that you get paid on a day rate or, you know, on time
17:08
and materials, there's these horrible prefer perverse
17:11
incentives, which can sort of really get in the way of trying
17:15
to deliver those outcomes. So, you know, you, we're
17:18
increasingly seeing it, you know, project 13, thinking
17:21
enterprise solutions, alliancing, you know, these
17:24
things are going to be critical, I think in making sure that one,
17:29
having that collaborative mindset, having that outcome
17:32
based mindset ideally would be a behavioural cultural thing that
17:36
exists deep within our industry. But the reality is, is that
17:41
people get measured on on their commercial success.
17:45
How are we making sure that we're pushing the outcomes that
17:49
we seek in a way that is truly incentivizing acceleration?
17:54
Because as we've said, we only get to fleet if the money is
17:57
still coming in. The money's only going to come
17:59
in if we can prove that we can actually get to a scaled
18:02
solution. So you end up sort of chasing
18:04
your tail. And there's a lot still to be
18:08
done to make sure that when we start rolling out these new,
18:11
particularly in the SMR space and the AMR space, how are we
18:16
incentivizing the supply chain to deliver as quickly as
18:20
possible, but adopting those outcomes and really living and
18:24
breathing the outcomes that the clients are wanting to achieve.
18:28
And I think that's like, particularly for me, still a lot
18:32
of work to be done, particularly in the UK.
18:37
Just to play into the previous conversation really, I mean
18:40
commercial confidence and certainty are combined.
18:45
So I've never met certainly a civil contractor that I'll take
18:49
a lot of risk on in the first of a kind.
18:50
You've had much easier conversation when they're doing
18:52
it for the second, third and fourth time.
18:55
I can't think it's the same with equipment supplies.
18:57
I mean, just to give you an idea of kind of some real, real data,
19:01
I mean we're seeing like probably 10% of the non
19:04
conformances that Hinckley saw through their manufacturing
19:07
process or less. Now, if you imagine you had a
19:10
you're having a conversation with a contract and now about a
19:12
fixed price contract, they're going to be much more confident
19:15
to go for a fixed contract with that level of non conformances,
19:21
you know, compared to the first of a kind, you know, 90% not
19:26
well, it's unknown, isn't it? How many?
19:28
Well, you know, do you really want it that you're really sure
19:30
you want it that accurate? So you know, you, you, you the
19:33
commercial opportunities really open up.
19:35
I think the more that you've got certain.
19:37
So you know that that's the reality.
19:39
Nobody's going to risk their business, Certainly not not all
19:43
for one. You know, I mean, you know,
19:44
these people invest, I think, and it's the same guess we'll
19:47
get on to the conversation about people at some stage.
19:49
But if you're asking to invest in a factory and you're only
19:53
going to give them one to do and they're unlikely to do it, if
19:55
you're going to give them eight to do or possibly 8 to do,
19:59
they're more allowed to invest, they're more allowed to give
20:01
certainty, the better commercial conditions you're going to get.
20:04
Yeah. And I, I think if I could just
20:06
add to what Nigel said that I completely agree with that.
20:09
And what one of the things that we're seeing is that our
20:11
customers who do want multiple units, who do see themselves
20:15
having a fleet are willing to work with us and come to talk to
20:18
the suppliers to acknowledge the fact that they will be providing
20:22
the demand signal for that investment.
20:25
But I think just coming back, if I may, to the question about the
20:29
commercial models, I think one of the things that we do need to
20:33
explore is how the commercial models impact project delivery
20:37
and its success. And one of the things that we're
20:40
exploring is the use of integrated project management.
20:43
This is something that's been used on big critical and complex
20:46
infrastructure projects, primarily in Canada.
20:49
They've adopted it. But what where it's been seen to
20:52
work really well is on the more complex projects where you're
20:56
kind of starting with the first of a kind model.
21:00
And what this looks at is bringing all of your main
21:02
suppliers together, including the owner and the constructor
21:06
into a multi party contract and looking at risk sharing with
21:11
reward sharing and incentivizing the kind of collaborative
21:15
behaviours that you were talking about a few minutes ago where
21:18
all of the partners are incentivized to escalate
21:21
problems and to deal with them together.
21:24
And what they found there is it really helps to accelerate the
21:27
delivery and de risk the project.
21:30
And I think those kinds of things, while they may be novel
21:33
in the nuclear sector because they've been proven elsewhere,
21:37
we should be seeking to explore those and encourage the supply
21:41
chain to come into the project as early as possible.
21:44
It's really interesting as an outsider from from the nuclear
21:48
world that what you're actually talking about is behaviour.
21:53
So it's that kind of incentivization of everyone
21:56
collaborating and raising problems and being incentivized
21:59
to crack on and problem solve and get on with it and work
22:03
together to fix it. And also a matter of confidence,
22:07
I think, because what I've noticed as someone outside is
22:11
that there's greater confidence in the nuclear sex society.
22:14
This country before it had very bad PR 20 years ago off, you
22:19
know, more Chernobyl and everything.
22:21
And now it, I think, would you agree that it's become very much
22:25
part of this sort of sustainability, you know, net
22:29
zero, that there's a reason people are appraising it and
22:33
seeing it in a different way and that is giving confidence as
22:37
well. Is that something that you'd
22:38
agree with that this, this has become much more a kind of
22:42
critical, critical part of the sustainability in that zero
22:46
conversation that we're everyone's preoccupied with?
22:50
Yeah, if I could come in, I think, I think those agendas are
22:54
definitely helps. I think that the changing
22:57
geopolitical landscape has also really helps sort of really make
23:04
that point super clear to the to the people of which to be
23:08
honest, whichever country you're in, how critique is to have
23:11
sovereignty over your energy supply that you've got like firm
23:15
power, yes. And then if it can also be
23:17
clean, even better. I think the agenda runs the risk
23:22
of being undermined if we can't as an industry deliver.
23:28
And then as we've seen a single tweet these days or some kind
23:31
of, I don't know, a 30 character statement can can actually
23:35
torpedo entire policy sort of agendas nowadays.
23:40
It's it really doesn't take much with the right words being said
23:42
by the right person in the right channels can really destabilise
23:46
what previously would have felt like a fairly stable sort of
23:50
policy position and and so on. So I think we mustn't sort of
23:56
have any hubris in any of this. We need to sort of make sure
23:59
we're alert and alive that we this is as you're as good as
24:02
your last game in all of this. And that means everything we do
24:05
has got to be right. I think and increasingly so
24:07
because of the the fact that we have to get to fleet.
24:11
I think it's just incumbent on us to really, really turn up and
24:14
make sure that we can maintain where I think we've got to and
24:18
then and take it further. But I also think that there are
24:21
going to be challenges, particularly with the SMRS,
24:23
AMRS, micro reactors, these really novel sort of much, much
24:28
smaller units that because you can start to locate them in what
24:33
won't have been traditionally nuclear community spaces.
24:37
People like the idea of things when it's over there, but the
24:40
moment that it actually comes close to them, people's
24:43
perceptions can change. And I think because that's what
24:46
we're entering into is potentially these things being
24:49
located in lots of places that wouldn't have traditionally have
24:52
homed. Are we doing enough to truly
24:57
educate, to engage and get the buy in and have the social
25:02
licence to operate around these things that when we are pushing
25:05
these things because the chance we're going to try and push them
25:07
fast, people don't feel like they're it's being forced on
25:11
them because again, these things could easily fall over.
25:15
So I think that's just something I think we are, again, we all
25:17
need to be watching vigilantly and being very, very proactive
25:22
and engaged. Where you have the operating
25:26
nuclear power plants, that's the heart and soul of a community.
25:30
You don't get people that are more prone nuclear.
25:33
But I think your point is right. You know, we will not get the
25:36
fleet roll out and unless we change the sighting policy and
25:40
it will be more flexible to allow us to site the the smaller
25:44
modular reactors either on an industrial facility or closer to
25:48
populations. And I think it is incumbent on
25:51
us to demonstrate the safety case and there is more community
25:55
outreach required. And this goes back to Nigel's
25:57
point at the beginning, I think about the need for collaboration
26:01
across the sector and to work with the government to make sure
26:04
that we are getting the message out there to bring the benefits.
26:08
And certainly what we seem to be seeing is that the younger
26:10
people are a lot more prone nuclear, they're a lot more
26:14
accepting the recognise as a clean technology.
26:17
But we can't be guilty of hubris around this.
26:20
We've got a lot of work to do and ultimately we have to
26:22
demonstrate that these reactors are safe to deploy, deploy close
26:25
to local populations. You know, I think we we owe a
26:30
debt relief to the existing nuclear opera as if operate
26:34
reactors in the UK safely, you know, since the 1960s, you know,
26:38
and that's that helps with our credibility.
26:40
I think, you know, I think also being honest and open is really
26:45
important part of our culture. And I think, you know, we have
26:48
to accept when you look at this, these are low carbon.
26:50
They do give you the energy security you need.
26:52
They do give you bikes load. They do, you know, provides, you
26:56
know, very well paid highly skilled jobs for many
27:00
generations. You know, there'll probably be
27:02
about 3 or 4 generations of people who work at size will
27:05
see. And you know, they do bring, you
27:08
know, a lot of prosperity to a supply chain as well, both in
27:11
support, in construction and in operation, you know, but then we
27:14
have to weigh that off. These things do generally take a
27:16
long time to build and they cost a lot of money and but they are
27:19
around for a long time. They do provide, you know, the,
27:22
the best power output per acre of any other technology.
27:27
And you, you know, and they have got that really low carbon
27:30
footprint, which I think is really important, you know, in
27:33
in the environment and world that we're in.
27:35
So, so I think we tick a lot of boxes, but we have to be very
27:38
open that that we're where there is shortfalls, we're open about
27:42
it and we deal with it. Yeah.
27:44
And I think humble in the face of what we're dealing with here.
27:48
So I think, I think we need to recognise that that we, we treat
27:51
this technology with respect. We we all do our best to deliver
27:55
them at acceptable cost and and in timeframes.
27:59
Should we move on to the people side of things because I guess 2
28:04
aspects that the people to follow up what we're just
28:07
saying. I was all sorting Nigel around
28:10
how important is engaging the local community around Sisol
28:13
Sea. I live in Suffolk and I read
28:16
locally that the you'd be investing in local kind of
28:19
skills. I think there's going to be a
28:21
college or. College on the coast is called
28:24
Yeah. Is it that's catchy, That sounds
28:26
quite nice, but it's nice that part of the case.
28:29
But how important is that? How, how, how do you go around
28:33
winning the local community? I mean, I know that they're
28:36
really used to having a nuclear facility there, but how do you
28:41
engage with the local community and sell this as a, as a good
28:46
thing for all the reasons you've stated?
28:48
And secondly, finding the people to work on these projects
28:52
because like you say, we had investments.
28:54
The UK, you know, was successful in this area in the 60s,
28:58
seventies. And I think that's lost a whole
29:00
generation of professionals who left the country and that's been
29:04
lost and it's creating it again or bringing talent from
29:08
elsewhere. So two things are people in the
29:11
local community, but also allied to building the skills you need
29:16
to create facilities like that, particularly around project
29:19
management and the opportunity there for the profession to
29:22
grow. So a lot to ask you there,
29:24
Nigel. So.
29:27
So, you know, without social licence you can't build, without
29:31
community support you can't build.
29:33
So you need to make sure you kind of listen to the community
29:38
in which you, you know, you want for your facility and you have
29:42
to understand them as well, you know, understand what drives
29:44
them, what you know, I've never met anybody that likes traffic
29:48
lights and cones, to be honest. So I mean, you have to work with
29:53
but but equally, you know, when you look, as you say, you know,
29:56
what, what communities generally want is, is, is to make sure you
29:59
protect what they hold dear. And so there's, you know,
30:04
certainly there's very different vibe from my experience at Incu
30:08
Point C compared with size. We'll see.
30:10
I think it's a different community.
30:11
They want different things. We've put a lot more effort
30:14
into, I'd say softer issues around, you know, arts and, and,
30:19
and kind of, you know, I would say kind of more peripheral
30:24
things, you know, that that you wouldn't expect a construction
30:26
project to be involved with, but, but that's important to the
30:29
lack of community. So so we we do it.
30:31
What do you mean by sorry? What do you mean by arts?
30:33
How do you get involved? We've run various programmes
30:36
where we engage in arts and locally music, you know, because
30:41
it's quite, it's quite that kind of community where, you know,
30:44
they, they even got me to play God, the voice of God in Noah's
30:48
flood. So they, you know, I mean, I'm
30:51
not a name for my autistician skills.
30:54
So you know, the so, so, but this is important.
30:57
You do that, I think and you know, certainly my other joint
31:02
managing director is much more in tune with this than me
31:05
really. But but you know, you know, you
31:09
know, really seriously. But but to get on to the point,
31:11
you know, young people want jobs as well.
31:13
You know, they want opportunity in an area where it's quite
31:15
difficult to get anywhere. So we we felt it's really
31:18
important to look at O 16 education, how you can get
31:22
people into into jobs and, but, and one of the bitter feedback
31:26
from from the local community we engaged was was your size will
31:29
be come and when you know, there was a boom and there was a bust,
31:32
how you're going to make sure you don't do the same again.
31:34
So so make sure we're leaving legacy.
31:37
We're looking to make sure, you know, the transport links we
31:39
create a really something that'd be a value later.
31:42
You know, the educational facilities that we put in place
31:46
that will be you of use later. Anything we build, we try and
31:49
look at it with through a lens of what kind of community or
31:53
others do with this after we're finished so that again, you
31:57
don't have this massive construction boom and then, you
32:00
know, there'll be some highly skilled jobs there, but it won't
32:03
cover the whole community. So perhaps I think, you know,
32:07
I'd really encourage others to do the same.
32:08
We, we've, we've worked hard. I mean, I'm not saying we're
32:12
always popular because, as I say, there's things that in
32:16
building huge infrastructure you have to, you know, 'cause some
32:19
disruption, but you know, you should look for a net game
32:22
wherever possible. What's, what's the opportunity
32:26
for the project management profession, I guess specifically
32:29
within the UK or if you want to speak beyond that is are there
32:33
enough, is there enough project management expertise in this
32:36
area? What needs to happen to make
32:37
sure that you have the right people working on on these
32:41
projects? And actually is part of that
32:44
what makes a successful project manager or project professional
32:49
working in an environment like this?
32:50
I was really my ears picked up. When you talk about openness,
32:54
transparency, collaborative kind of working, is that key to the
32:58
people? Is that key to their kind of
33:01
skill set or attitude that you want people to have that you
33:04
employ on your projects? I would say there's there
33:09
probably aren't enough and probably not enough for what is
33:13
coming. And that's not just nuclear, but
33:15
that's outside of nuclear. So if you look at the number of
33:17
Dcos that are being submitted in the UK this year.
33:20
Sorry, can you just say what? Can you just say what DCO is?
33:24
For, oh, sorry, say so, the DCO, the, the development consent
33:27
order. So these are the, the consented,
33:29
this is the consenting regime for getting major nationally
33:31
significant infrastructure programmes and projects to be
33:35
consented, to move forward to be constructed.
33:37
And there's about 35 of them being submitted this year, which
33:40
is twice the number of just a few years ago.
33:44
So, and interestingly and probably Nigel for you, the
33:49
majority of those around Suffolk, around the East of
33:52
England. So when you're actually then
33:53
mapping them and you heat map, where are all these major
33:55
infrastructure projects being deployed or actually they're
33:59
very heavily on the East Coast. A lot of that is energy related
34:02
because of a lot of the the offshore wind interconnectors
34:04
and so on. But what it means is an amazing
34:07
opportunity. There's going to be a huge
34:09
demand signal that's going to be sent out there because you're
34:11
going to need all of these, all these really complex programmes
34:16
that are all going to be being deployed all right next to each
34:19
other, all demanding the same thing, same resources, same
34:21
labour, limited supply chain. So I think actually it's going
34:25
to be a golden age for project managers because this is how are
34:29
we going to navigate what is going to become a sort of a knot
34:33
of major programmes all being delivered in parallel, all quite
34:35
close to each other. I think it's actually really
34:38
critical and all of these nationally significant
34:40
infrastructure projects, they all sort of leaning on each
34:43
other. This is all part of a systems
34:45
approach that the UK is trying to adopt and looking at sort of
34:49
what we need in critical national infrastructure systems
34:52
basis. So that sort of systems view I
34:56
think is also going to be a critical skill for really good
35:01
project managers, programme managers, to sort of really
35:04
understand the system in which they operate.
35:06
And again, experience is key. And I think the volume that's
35:10
coming, again, what a great opportunity for project managers
35:13
to get lots and lots of really rich experience that we can,
35:17
that we can use to help advance it like UKPLC as well and sort
35:21
of really, really, really drive things.
35:23
Yeah, if I may just build on that, I, I completely agree with
35:26
that. I think one of the huge benefits
35:28
about being in a project management professional is it's
35:32
a completely flexible set, you know, a set of skills and
35:35
expertise. You know, if I just look at my
35:38
own background, as I mentioned earlier, I've been in the
35:40
nuclear sector since 2014. Prior to that, all of my
35:44
experience was delivering major programmes for central
35:47
government. Big transformation projects
35:49
typically are with a big IT component in the UK and the
35:53
Middle East. And I was asked to join the NEC
35:56
Emirates Nuclear Energy Corporation project for my
35:59
programme management and project management background.
36:02
And, and I think to the point that was just made there about
36:05
the huge demand. I think one of the things we're
36:08
going to be seeing is re skilling and and mid career
36:11
transfers as well from other sectors such as oil and gas, big
36:15
capital infrastructure. But it is a hugely exciting
36:18
time. And I think the other thing
36:20
that, you know, I would say is there is a huge opportunity here
36:23
to bring more female project professionals into the sector.
36:27
You know, it females of typically being very
36:30
underrepresented in the section. We've seen a lot more interest
36:33
now and that is growing, particularly among the younger
36:36
population and a huge amount of enthusiasm for project
36:39
management careers in the sector.
36:42
Because I think somebody said earlier, the secure, the well
36:44
paid, you know, challenging in the right kind of ways and an
36:49
opportunity to do something that matters, you know, matters to
36:52
society now and will matter in the future.
36:55
And I think as a sector, we really need to lean into that
36:58
enthusiasm, you know, work together as individual
37:01
companies, as a sector with the government and, and really help
37:05
build the, the skills pipeline with skills providers to help
37:10
to, to grow the expertise in the sector.
37:13
Because I think people can have a hugely rewarding career here.
37:17
And I think we, as I said, we just need to lean into that
37:19
enthusiasm. As you said from I've recently
37:23
done a, a piece for you saying that I think project managers
37:27
are slightly underrated and as a profession and, and you know,
37:32
when you look what a project manager does, you mean it's
37:35
simplest form you, you kind of, you know, managing outcomes, but
37:38
you know, you deal with finance, you deal with reschedule, you
37:40
deal with communications, you deal with stakeholders, you deal
37:44
with massively complicated times.
37:46
Certainly in our sector interfaces you deal with
37:49
commercial outcomes. You kind of, you know, it's
37:51
hard. It sounds like you're a Prime
37:53
Minister to me. So you kind of, you know, I
37:56
think the profession offers a lot really.
38:00
You know, I'll go back. I mean, some of the huge
38:05
programme directors I've ever met, I mean some of them
38:08
previously run big businesses, you know.
38:11
So, so you know, that's the two the two things I'll link to me.
38:16
It's a great business background.
38:17
I think you know, to come in as an entry delivery project
38:20
manager and it's really open stores.
38:24
I think that's really true. And actually I've seen certainly
38:26
with, I think when you have successfully managed and
38:30
delivered a really complex programme like a nuclear GW
38:33
station, there's almost nothing you can't do as a professional.
38:37
There's almost nothing that is going to be any more complicated
38:40
than going to challenge you anymore as a programme manager,
38:42
as a project manager, like, and it's, it's so impressive when
38:46
you see those people then sort of whether they stay in the
38:48
nuclear sector or whether they then go into other sort of
38:51
sectors, how they can sort of boss it to be honest, because
38:55
it's such an incredibly rich training ground for like we've
39:00
mentioned, like the interfaces, the integration of incredibly
39:03
complex programmes. I think exactly right.
39:06
And a lot of those people actually can go off and do start
39:09
their own business, go and do anything they like.
39:11
And I just think that again, if you can get that at scale, wow,
39:15
again, UKPLC, what a what a great benefit, I think.
39:20
I wanted to ask you Stuart and the others actually, because he
39:24
talks about sort of systems and do you feel that there is a kind
39:31
of coherent cohesive UK strategy towards nuclear energy and, and
39:37
how important is there recognition of how important
39:40
that is to powering the UK economy?
39:42
So I'm surprised to to hear that you do think there is kind of a
39:46
greater joining of the dots particularly around major
39:49
infrastructure projects. Is that something that's come
39:51
from this government or do you or do you feel as a natural
39:54
trend towards this or if not, does it need to be accelerated?
40:00
Others might be able to speak more confidently to this than
40:03
myself, but certainly from from what I see, I think there's
40:06
absolutely an approach with the systems operator, you know you
40:10
would need. So there's absolutely a drive to
40:14
take a systems view of the energy system.
40:17
I think it's acknowledged that's what we need and there's some
40:19
great progress. I think when you step out, I
40:24
think there's still a lot of things that we need to get right
40:26
in order for that to actually happen.
40:28
And that's intent and doing are two sort of quite different
40:32
things. So I think there's still an
40:33
awful lot of doing. It's great that we've got the
40:35
intent, we've identified the problem and the sort of general
40:38
solution space we need. But then again, when you step
40:42
out and actually look at things that aren't in the energy
40:45
sector, but they are all buying for the same thing, I talked
40:48
about those 35 Dcos who are going to service all of those
40:53
things. Where's all that labour coming
40:55
from? All the resources, the supply
40:56
chains that need to be deployed, things like social value, I
41:00
imagine every single one of those Dcos are all, all those
41:03
projects will go through varying types of procurement from lots
41:06
of different organisations all saying they want to deliver
41:09
social value. Is that coordinated?
41:11
Like are we pooling all of those commitments in a way that can be
41:15
greater than the sum of its parts?
41:17
And you know, my suspicion and I don't know this for sure, but my
41:20
suspicion is that they're probably not aware of what this
41:24
project over here is committing or what this supplier has said
41:27
in this tender versus that tender.
41:29
And so I think there's there are some in May.
41:31
Again, it's all upside. I think the opportunity here for
41:33
us to come together and be really smart with how we can
41:37
deliver these national needs that are emerging out of these
41:41
really impressive projects, I think is is there for the
41:44
taking. Does anybody else want to add to
41:46
that? I would if I may, Emma, please.
41:50
I mean, I think there is real recognition of the role that
41:54
nuclear has to play as part of society and for the the UK
42:00
economy and the global economy. And I think there's no shortage
42:03
of technologies to help deliver that.
42:06
And I think the government has clearly demonstrated its
42:08
commitment through the financial commitment reached FID in June
42:12
this year. On size, we'll see.
42:14
And with the procurement of the Rolls Royce SMR product as well.
42:19
I think though in terms of your question about is there a
42:22
strategy, I think there's some of the building blocks that we
42:25
need to make sure that we do get a cohesive strategy.
42:29
I mean, just some examples. So I think we need an indication
42:33
of the quantum of nuclear that's required.
42:35
So by that I mean how many gigawatts like like we saw to be
42:39
fair, the last government had said 24 gigawatts.
42:42
And I think the reason we need that is it makes it real for
42:44
everybody. It makes it real for the supply
42:46
chain in particular. I think you know, to to leverage
42:50
on some of the points earlier. We need to make sure there's a
42:52
new sighting policy that's more flexible in allowing where the
42:56
reactors can be deployed. We need a financial framework
43:00
that helps to unlock the private capital by de risking first in
43:05
country projects or or first of a kind.
43:08
And to the point that Stuart was just making an industrial
43:11
strategy that helps to support investment in supply chain and
43:16
in skills. And I think also, you know,
43:19
coming back to regulation, we we need the, I'll call it removal
43:24
of some of the regulation that may be stifling safe progress
43:29
rather than enabling it. And I'm not in any way
43:31
suggesting that we, you know, lower our standards or we take
43:36
away any of the independence of the of the regulator.
43:39
But you know, if, if I just give you an example, in, in the
43:42
United States, we've seen clear commitment from the government
43:46
about shortening the regulatory period.
43:48
We've been given an 18 month construction permit application
43:52
window, which is the shortest that's ever been given.
43:55
And I think, you know, a lot of collaboration between the UK
43:58
regulator, the US regulator, the Canadian regulator to help
44:02
streamline that process. So I think that cohesive
44:08
strategy will only come if we get all of these building blocks
44:11
in place. And I think it's all recognised
44:14
and it's been worked on by the government.
44:16
But I don't think we're quite there yet with a a countrywide
44:20
strategy. It is is my perspective on.
44:23
Yeah, I think most people would agree with you, Nigel.
44:25
Was there anything you wanted to add?
44:27
Well, just, I mean, I, I agree with what Carol has just said.
44:31
I, I just just to go back to the point around national strategic
44:37
infrastructure projects sort of kind of working together.
44:39
I think with in Suffolk we are actually doing that.
44:43
So if you look at the lot of renewables, grid upgrades, stuff
44:47
that's going on in Suffolk and as we'll see, are working
44:51
together, but but it's been done through, I guess need rather
44:57
than, you know, strategic intent really.
45:00
So, you know, but, but if we hadn't done that, if we hadn't
45:04
worked with them, we would have dug roads up to us, we would
45:07
have doubled up on requirements. We wouldn't have shared
45:10
resources, we wouldn't have resource plans.
45:12
But so so I think, you know, it's important that, you know,
45:16
that need that's driven the the relationships in in Suffolk has
45:19
now taken nationwide so that we join this summer and there is
45:22
some vehicles to start to do that, especially with people.
45:25
So I mean, I'll sit on the Ambition skills board, which is
45:28
looking at construction sort of trade skills mainly.
45:33
But you know, I think, you know, the more you nationally join
45:36
these things up, the the better outcomes we'll get.
45:39
Yeah, 100% agree with that. So I mean a question I wanted to
45:43
put to all of you would be what are the biggest blockers to
45:46
continued progress and investment in nuclear?
45:49
One of those could be this lack of collaboration, maybe the lack
45:55
of people, the people available to do this.
45:57
But what would you say the biggest blockers and how would
46:01
how would you overcome them, Nigel?
46:05
If we specifically looking at nuclear, I think it's all about
46:08
certainty for me, I think I absolutely applaud what Carol
46:11
said. Pick some number that you need
46:14
what the demand LED is what you need it for.
46:17
Pick some technologies, give the supply chain confidence to
46:21
invest by giving them a number to go after.
46:23
And then we can get the people lined up as well, which is equal
46:26
input, takes as long. So it's about the the clarity of
46:32
the intent and need. Yeah.
46:34
And I would just amplify that again, I think one of the things
46:38
that are the critical thing has not just been supply side
46:42
shortage, it's been the absence of a demand signal.
46:46
And I think that's where to Nigel's point, we need that
46:49
clarity and consistency and certainty about what that is so
46:53
everybody can start to to ramp up to support it.
46:57
I mean, I couldn't agree more. You know it's.
46:59
The word I keep hearing from everyone we engage with the
47:02
certainty that you know, how can we be, how can we drive that?
47:05
How can we de risk the critical path, How do we get to fit
47:09
quicker? How do we give those signals
47:12
clearly, yeah, but that's a project sort of level.
47:15
But again, it's Carol's point, the the signals of pipeline, how
47:19
are we building the pipeline and how are we sending those signals
47:23
out so that they can see that there's a long term commitment
47:26
and that gives people that, that, that confidence.
47:28
And you know, I guess from someone in the supply chain, I
47:31
think delivery credibility is another real big piece because
47:35
that's where the the certainty comes from is because we as an
47:38
industry have turned up and have shown these things are credible.
47:42
You can construct them to a timeline, to a budget and you
47:46
can scale. And again, so come back to that.
47:49
What's incumbent on us? Well, we have got to get this
47:52
right. And I think that and get it
47:54
right. And then we've all got an
47:56
incredibly exciting industry that will probably be gunning
48:00
for for decades. And that's that's what makes it
48:03
so exciting. So, Stuart, that neatly segues
48:07
into my. Next question, which is what
48:08
does the future hold? How do you for nuclear energy
48:11
and how optimistic do you feel about it, Nigel?
48:19
Well. I'm optimistic in, in the, the
48:23
task I've been given in the sense that, you know, building a
48:26
fleet, copying what somebody else has done is really good.
48:28
I'm, I'm really hopeful around the future of other
48:32
technologies. I, I really, you know, cheer the
48:36
cheer people on from the sidelines.
48:37
I think it's really important that we, you know, providing we
48:40
get that real policy statement about what people need when they
48:44
need it by, you know, there's no reason why, you know, other
48:47
technologies can't get the same certainty.
48:50
My money advices from my experience is don't bet your
48:52
house on the first of a kind and, and just be realistic about
48:56
that. And, and I think that that's
48:58
going to be the challenge for new technologies coming in after
49:01
that. If you've got the certainty, if
49:03
you've got the programmes, you'll absolutely reap all the
49:05
rewards and benefits of of that kind of fleet.
49:08
Serious effect for a business, Yeah, I completely agree with.
49:14
That I mean I think, I think from an AMR perspective, if I
49:17
may, we've got 2 challenges. The 1st is you know as Nigel
49:20
just pointed out, the first of a kind demonstrating and for the
49:24
UK market 1st in country demonstrating that that can be
49:28
delivered at acceptable cost and time and then they become
49:32
predictable. And then the second challenge is
49:34
scaling to deliver the fleet, you know because that is the
49:38
theory of the case for SMR. So I think they are the
49:41
challenges and there's a huge prize if we can capture it and
49:44
that's what we're all working towards the moment.
49:47
So optimistic, but we've got a huge amount of work to do and I
49:50
don't think anybody's diminishing that.
49:53
Stuart, you feeling optimistic? I think the same.
49:56
I think there's a big upside. But it's not guaranteed.
49:59
There's a lot of work to be done for us to be able to prove it.
50:03
But if we can, then yes, I think it could be, you know, the
50:06
Renaissance. We think and hope that this
50:08
would be and it will move forward.
50:11
But I think we we've just got to get it right.
50:15
What's the cutting edge? Kind of.
50:16
Innovations in this area because how does fusion fit into all of
50:21
this as well? So kind of in in the future,
50:24
because I went to somewhere in England just West of Oxford
50:30
where they were decommissioning first fusion kind of
50:35
experimental plant there. And that was really interesting
50:38
to see that now there is a future in this technology.
50:42
Can it be proven to work Econography?
50:45
I don't know, but it's on that journey.
50:47
So if if you were to kind of catapult forward a couple of
50:51
decades, do you see a mix of different technologies then or
50:55
is there anything new that PAT systems haven't heard about or
50:59
or you know, might be interested in finding out about?
51:04
Yeah, I think Fusion personally has.
51:06
Got a journey to go on I think, you know, to prove the
51:09
technology works on a commercial kind of scarred boxes is there's
51:14
a bit to do from a material science point of view on as I
51:16
understand it, they profess to be an expert.
51:18
But you know, and again, you know, I think people absolutely
51:23
salute the investment that they've put me into at the time
51:25
of, you know, and the confidence that they is it's a technology
51:29
that will reap benefits for in the future.
51:31
But I thought it's any think in the next decade then, you know,
51:36
we need to focus on the other technologies and let fusion
51:40
continue to develop. Yeah, I would.
51:44
Completely agree with. That once again, I think, you
51:47
know, in a an economy that needs to be powered by abundant clean
51:52
energy, I think absolutely it could have an important role.
51:55
But I think even the proponents of fusion would recognise there
51:59
are some big technical challenges that they need to
52:02
overcome, as Nigel just cited, particularly making sure it can
52:05
work commercially at scale. And I think therefore, we can't
52:09
rely on that coming. We can't bet that that will be
52:12
the future. And therefore the task falls to
52:14
the proven technologies, including nuclear fission and
52:18
technologies that that we all bring.
52:21
Yeah, I I just think. Fission's probably going to be
52:24
doing the heavy lifting for the next decade or two while these
52:28
other technologies try and find their feet, if they find their
52:30
feet. But I for now, I think we're,
52:33
yeah, all the heavy lifting done by what we what we have in front
52:36
of us. Yeah.
52:38
Well, it's time to wrap. Up so I perhaps the nice thing
52:41
to ask each of you would be is is there a kind of lesson, a
52:46
lesson learned or any advice you'd pass on to project
52:49
management professionals looking to get ahead and in this world
52:54
I'll go to the. Voice of God first.
52:56
Nigel. You know, my advice always with
53:04
people is never stop learning. Really.
53:07
I've I'll describe over in the year 45 of my apprenticeships so
53:11
far and I learned something different every day and great
53:14
project managers, you know, learn, you know, consistently
53:19
for every experience, you know, the the the only mistake you can
53:22
ever make is making the same mistakes.
53:23
What's wrong? So you know, I you know, I love
53:29
project management. I think it provides structure,
53:32
you know, and whatever you're doing really, and you know, and
53:35
just just use that structure. Continue to learn, listen to
53:39
others. You're great teams, you know,
53:41
and what's not, what's not to like perfect Carol.
53:45
So anything you'd like to? Any thoughts you'd like to give
53:48
us? Again, completely agree with
53:50
Nigel. I mean, as I mentioned a couple
53:52
of times, I've only been in the sector for the last 11 years and
53:55
it's been the most exciting and rewarding 11 years of my career.
53:58
Absolutely tremendous. And every day is a school day.
54:02
And so for people that want to continue to learn and grow in
54:05
their career, I couldn't think of a better place to do that as
54:08
a project leader. Great, Stuart.
54:12
Yeah, I I mean I. Echo everything there and I just
54:15
think that, as I said earlier, I think once you've cracked the
54:19
nut of these big, really complex programmes like your skill set
54:23
is is really on a parter to excellence.
54:26
It's it's but you get it right here.
54:29
You can do anything really so but it does take that desire to
54:33
learn keep learning never stops being steep learning Kevin, to
54:37
be honest, when you look at the new technologies, new types of
54:40
delivery curve is probably only going to get steeper.
54:42
But you know, for those that want it, that's to me is super
54:46
exciting because it makes every day different.
54:49
Well, So what I mean I couldn't have.
54:50
Written these words myself that were brilliant.
54:52
Then my turn to podcasts. Such a positive notice of
54:55
profession. So thanks very much.
54:57
It just leads me to say thank you again for your time.
55:00
That's been a really interesting conversation and I wish we had
55:03
another two hours to I'll dive into some of the things I wanted
55:07
to ask you about. So we'll leave it there.
55:09
But thank you so much for your time.
55:11
It's been it's been great speaking to all of you.
55:13
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you very.
55:17
Much thanks for the invitation. Good.
55:18
Conversation thanks again to Nigel Carroll and Stuart for.
55:22
Joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast.
55:25
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