Latest / Follow the Leighder / Raised Christian Nationalist, Now Progressive | April Ajoy

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Raised Christian Nationalist, Now Progressive | April Ajoy · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and joining me today from the East Coast, y'all, my gosh, I am humbled right now. It's April A. Joy. How you doing? Welcome. April Ajoy: Hi, I'm good. How are you? Leigh/@followtheleighder: So good folks, listen to this bio because it will make you just so inspired. listen, April is a content creator, she's a podcast host, she shares funny stories from her time deep within Christian nationalism. She explores how aspects of evangelical culture such as product boy boyc boycotts, boy scouts, April Ajoy: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: product boycotts, satanic panic, and end times theology have all been exploited to advance the Christian nationalist narrative. Now she was deep in it. She she wrote a book called, here it is. I had it pulled up. she wrote a book called Star Spangled Jesus, Leaving Christian Nationalism and finding a true faith. I wanted to make sure I get the full title. And I read this a few weeks ago, a few months ago, and again, her testimony is really powerful. Can you just share with us a little bit for those who have No idea who've been a little under a rock with with Christian nationalist antagonist or people who speak out against it, folks like you. Can you share with us your your upbringing? Where were you in in all of this to take to to live in Christian nationalism so deeply? What is your childhood context? April Ajoy: Sure. So I'll try to give the Cliff Notes version because it's a lot. But my grandfather was a pastor and he was initially ordained assemblies of God. So we were the more like Pentecostal, charismatic sect of Christianity. But when by the time I was born, he had left the Assemblies of God and started his own church in the Dallas, Texas area. And that church grew to It was a pretty big church for the time for like the eighties and nineties. And so I think we had like four thousand members, which this was before like a lot of churches had satellite campuses and there were as many mega churches as there are. And then him and my dad, my dad was also a preacher, but he was an evangelist when I was born. So we would travel all over the country and all over the world. my dad would preach in different churches and stadiums and conferences, and then me, my two brothers and my mom would sing. Before he would preach. And yeah, I guess like my entire upbringing was about sharing the gospel and was very ministry focused. Like me and my brothers were homeschooled for a good chunk of our childhood so that we could travel in our motorhome when we did like stateside crusades, which is what they were called. so yeah, very Pentecostal. And, you know, I remember being taught. I feel like the nationalism kind of came into play more more overtly after 9-11. But initially it was still very much like we had an obligation as Christians to tell everybody about Jesus. And if there was somebody that we came in contact with who did not know Jesus and we did not tell them about Jesus, and then they were to die before accepting Christ. Their blood would be on our hands, and that would like hurt your crown or whatever rewards you would get in heaven. So, and I remember feeling that way when I was a kid. So, me and my brothers, like we would argue over whose turn it was to witness to the waitress when we'd go to restaurants and stuff. So we just grew up telling everybody about Jesus because one, we want to make my dad proud, but also we felt like a spiritual obligation to do so. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And that's really it's you watched your dad perform like you said in stadiums, arenas, these massive crowds, you're traveling, you've built your whole life on it. You find your voice, your language, and also your identity with your clearly like your family, to begin with. You have your family and then your community and then it kinda goes out from there. Talk to us about kind of public speaking. I mean, I know you said you were you already grew up in it, but you have done campaign videos for Mitt Romney, and and quite a few policy and advocacy. How did you get in or did your family in general, how did you get into going from just preaching the Bible to different churches and, you know, welcoming communities to flipping the switch and going political? April Ajoy: Yeah, so I don't think it was really a switch that was flipped. Politics was kind of always baked in. it's and I think that is kind of true of Christian nationalism today, although it's a little more obvious today, but most people that perpetuate nationalism to some degree don't think that they're Christian nationalists. They think they're just being good Christians by loving God, loving people, voting Republican. Like the voting Republican part is just a piece of your evangelical identity. So I would say my dad was pretty invested in politics before I was born. He helped run a campaign for a governor candidate in Texas in the 80s. And we always had used this language of like turn America back to God. We have to save America for Jesus. And initially that was more through. You know, church outreach, Jesus marches, like kind of more person to person witnessing and less about changing the laws, although we wanted to do that too. But then as time went on, I think especially after nine eleven, there was kind of this, we better hurry up and save America. 'Cause, you know, some people believed that God allowed the terrorist attack to happen because we had gotten away from you know, America being a Christian nation. 'Cause We were taught, I was homeschooled. So I was taught and believed that America was founded as a Christian nation and that God had supernaturally blessed our country through all of our wars and endeavors and quests because God favored us and God was choosing to bless us. But when we allowed, you know, feminists and abortion and homosexuality and all of these things that we considered sins, we never looked at ourselves, but those other sins out there. When we allowed that into it and secular lists and the ACLU and all that, then God lifted his veil of protection. And so in order to get back into God's good graces, so that, you know, things like 911 or Hurricane Katrina stopped happening, then we needed to elect godly Christians into office so that they can make these laws. And so it was it's kind of similar in the, you know I feel like in evangelicalism, I don't know if you ever heard this term, but one thing we said a lot was, you know, it's not a religion, it's a relationship. Like we would say we're not religious, like we just have a relationship with God. And so I kind of feel the same way with the politics. Like, I don't even think we would have said, like, we're political. We're just Christians doing what Christians are supposed to do, which is to, you know, exalt God and make God the ultimate authority in our land. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well you you brought up nine eleven, you brought up politics. Did you hear things, I know you're talking about t Saving America, you've mentioned Crusades, did you hear things about holy war or anything that would lead to something like what we're seeing in our headlines right now? I mean, did this surprise you at all? April Ajoy: No, I mean it doesn't it didn't it both doesn't surprise me and does surprise me because I remember hearing about there could come a day where Christians are going to be heavily persecuted and it's going to be against the law to be a Christian and to read your Bible. Cause you know, you would hear stories of this happening in China or, you know, in various countries. And I remember the threat was always that's that's coming to America or that could come to America if we don't elect Christians. And so there was a lot of martyr talk, but it was like the violence that was talked that was told to me was never was usually framed as a defense because we are being persecuted for our faith. It was never really like we're gonna go and convert all these people by force kind of situation. It's even though that can happen, it was wrapped in a it's only because we're being persecuted. So you you have to be. Prepared to fight for your rights. Like fight for your rights, I remember was a big piece of that. so yeah, but but I did hear a lot about war because of the end times and our belief in the rapture and God or like Jesus coming back for the second coming and like the war to end all wars, you know, that Christians would be on the side of Christ and the rest of the world, you know, by Satan, and that Jesus comes back and basically wipes out three-fourths of the earth. in the final battle. And so we're always kind of excited about warfare when it happened in the Middle East, especially if Israel was involved because of what we believed that meant for the biblical end times. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Thank you for that. Well, that's obviously a lot of emphasis on, you know, if there's war or saving for Christ. Can you talk about the messages also that you g you learn particularly as you went from I mean maybe you heard these as a little girl, but what did it look like just message wise coming into teenagerhood? when it came to partying or when it came to premarital sex? Like what were What were some of the messages that you came to learn and even see how you saw your future, education, career? April Ajoy: Yeah. So I was raised at the height of purity culture. So by my 16th birthday, my parents gave me Josh Harris's book, I Kiss Dating, Goodbye. which if you don't aren't familiar with that book, it's basically it was written by a 19 year old at the time, Josh Harris, who encourages teenagers to not date, but to merely court whoever it is that they want to marry and like don't kiss or anything until you're actual. wedding day and I think like only go on group dates and stuff. So it was my parents' way of saying, Hey, we are going to allow you to date, but if you misbehave, then we're gonna move to this. It was like it was it was like a a subtle threat. but yeah, so I was raised that, you know, keeping your virginity, especially as a girl in the church, was the most important thing for a girl to have. It was a gift that you give To your future husband, and that if you don't have that to give, like that's something he'll never be able to have, and you're then damaged goods and it was it was like the whole upbringing, especially once I got to youth group age, is very hypersexualized. I mean, they talked about sex all of the time, but in a don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, which honestly just made me think about it more because Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. April Ajoy: it was just Always being talked about as like the worst thing. Same with like masturbation and homosexuality too was heavily demonized. Although I think they all assumed that nobody was gay because you couldn't be born gay. So they didn't talk about it as much in youth group. but yeah, I remember my dad too, sometimes like from the pulpit would brag because I I took the vow, I signed the purity pledge card, I had a purity ring, like I was all in and believed it. I'm like, I'm saving myself from marriage. And my dad would like brag about it from the pulpit sometimes of how I was a virgin and saving myself, which in hindsight it was kind of like that's kind of weird that that was just such a public thing to talk about, that like people s complete strangers were thinking about me and my virginity. But at in the moment it just was a normal thing to talk about. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And especially when there's emphasis on it. Like, I mean, it kinda April Ajoy: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: sounds like Tim Whitaker was talking about the the the hot wife, the hot pastor wife trope. And April Ajoy: Mm. Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: it's there's there's like this whole the hot wife and the virginal daughter and like there's like there's so many like patterns that use and there's and there's things you can laugh at with progressive churches too, but they it's just there's it's just funny how things emerge like that and and and because of the patriarchal emphasis. Like, April Ajoy: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: look at this. And what you you you mentioned queerness being demonized. Did you have queer friends or no like what did that I know you said you were homeschooled and you had your faith community. but even at the age of high school, like what was it look what was it like, I guess To look out in the world through your lens? April Ajoy: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Did you look at everyone as lost? Or were you did you have some questions at the time? What what did that look like? April Ajoy: Yeah. So I remember probably being eight or nine. I was pretty young, maybe seven. I don't remember, but I have a clear memory of being in a restaurant with my family. And we were we were put we were sat seated at this table and our waiter came up and he, you know, talked kind of more femininely than most men. And I didn't really think much of it other than he talks different than most men I've heard. And after he left, it took our drink order. My dad was like, kids, we're we're leaving. And I remember asking why. And he said, because that man is a homosexual. And I didn't fully understand what that meant at the time. But I was like, okay. So then we left. And I remember I turned and I looked back and I made eye contact with the waiter. And he just looked so hurt. And I remember like in that moment, obviously I believed my dad because he was, you know, my hero. at the time. But I felt even in my heart that like this feels wrong. Like, I feel like we're being mean to this person. And I did I mean, I was I was a kid, so I didn't know. but then over time, you know, the more you hear about gay people and and It was really focused on homosexuality. Like I like trans wasn't really the issue back then. Like some people talked about it, but that was not like the culture war, you know, issue of the day. It was focused on gay marriage because gay marriage wasn't legal yet, but they were trying to Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. April Ajoy: get it legal. So we were fighting that. And you know, I was taught that gay people either were oppressed by a demon or possessed by. By a demon. And there is a difference, and you know it if you're Pentecostal, but basically a demon was involved in some way. And that nobody was born gay because God would never make you that way, but you would choose it be based on the demons influencing you. And then that's how gay people existed, and was because of demons. But my freshman year of high school, I actually went to a big public school and I had a a f one of my closest friends in my drama class at the time, like halfway through, told me that she was bisexual. And I was like, what is that? Because I I didn't even know. And she's like, I like girls and boys. And I was like, huh. Okay. And I think I remember inviting her to church and I didn't really know how to handle that. Cause I was like, well, that's half that's like only half demon. I was like, you know, like Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. April Ajoy: But I just I remember I kind of let it go and I was like, well, you know, Jesus loves you. And I I think I just kind of tucked that away and tried not to think about it because I was just confused. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. All right. Well i isn't that funny too though. I mean, like there's just I don't know. What I what I saw like growing up, so I come from a disciples of Christ, progressive cr Christianity, and my best friend went to a conservative Bible church and we would go to each other's youth groups all the time throughout elementary and early middle school and then things started to shift in middle school once things got a little bit more like gendered or mature or just, you know, like you said, the talking about sex and things. And one of the things that he and I would talk about a lot was how well where or even like I would say to him, I was like, I love how well you know the Bible. I love how you can quote scripture. Like I it really is a like something very exciting to me. and he would say, But I think you guys he said, Yeah, but I think your church talks about Jesus differently than we do. And I like how y'all talk about Jesus. And April Ajoy: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: we would like have these conversations because both of them I've noticed on the left are lacking too, like because if you have the right that or like the the fundamentalist conservative Christian right that takes April Ajoy: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: scripture very literally and very seriously, and then you have the left that like is more dismissive of it, or it's just like a book, well, they're not gonna study and memorize and wrestle with it in the same way that the right is. And so it's not gonna be the first thing they quote. They're probably gonna quote other books or, you know, whatever. And and I've just been thinking about For folks like you who are moving from that side over to this, like the differences in the way that the church services are ran, the Bible's talked about, Jesus is taught it is such a different world. What is it like to transition? Because I will be the first to say, I don't think the left does a good job at you talked about that personal relationship with Jesus. Like the left does Cr progressive Christianity doesn't talk about per the personal relationship with Jesus as much as the right does. They tend to put Jesus as a social justice advocate, which I agree with, but there's also again that personal thing. So talk about these differences and what that looks like. I mean, I'm not saying that you jumped into progressive Christianity, but I mean it's it's a world that you a totally different framework. What was that like to shift? April Ajoy: Yeah, I think I think when you come from more conservative evangelicalism, it can be really hard to go back to the Bible after a while because because Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay. April Ajoy: you've witnessed it being so misused and you know, used as a weapon to hurt so many people that it can almost be triggering to Like it took me a while when I was first deconstructing to like I think there's stages of deconstructing, which is which is my word for it, because I come from a very conservative evangelical, very fundamentalist Christian background. I'm still Christian, just progressive now. And so I think initially when I realized how I was wrong and how things had been taught to me wrong. I went to the Bible. Like that's where I went first. I was like, wait a minute, I need to reread the gospels for the first, like objectively, without a pastor telling me how I should interpret this and just read it. And I remember there was no way I could reconcile the teachings of Jesus with my conservative political identity for one. And I think Trump was a huge wake up call for for me anyway and for a lot of people because he just the the hypocrisy became too loud to ignore. Which we can get more into that later. But anyway, so I went back to read the teachings of Jesus, was like, yes, this is this is this is this is clear. I love Jesus. I want to follow Jesus. And also I grew up in the era of WWJD bracelets where everyone was telling us to ask ourselves, what would Jesus do in every situation? And I asked myself, what would Jesus do? And I was like, well, he would not vote for Donald Trump. I could tell you that. so you know, that seemed very clear and obvious to me. And so, you know, I think I tried for a while, me anyway, I'll just tell my story because I know everybody's different. I tried for a while to stay in evangelicalism and change it from the inside. really during Trump's first term, like everyone around me still pretty much voted for him. And then I just noticed like the Christian nationalism was becoming louder and louder. and I would Being church service, and I found myself getting so angry because we would be singing these worship songs about a God who loves undercon unconditionally, about a Christ who told us to love our neighbors and to love our enemies. And there were no exceptions. And I would be sitting in a pew next to someone worshiping supposedly the same God, but I would see them post the most hateful stuff. About marginalized people, about trans people, about immigrants, like throughout the week on Facebook. And I didn't want any part of that. I I just couldn't reconcile it. So then we eventually left evangelicalism. And I could not reconcile how anyone who actually is following Jesus, who has that personal relationship, could treat other people that God has called us to love, like treat them like crap in the way that they were doing. So My initial reaction was like, I don't want anything to do with that whatsoever. I don't want to read my Bible. I like because it's just harming so many people. and so it took me a while before I could even go back to church. Like I still always loved Jesus, but I don't, I don't know. It's just, I think it can just, it's just, it's just difficult because when you have a text as complicated as the Bible, that can be used to oppress and used to liberate. You know, it's just hard it's hard to get to the liberate part when you grew up in the oppressive part. But over time I we have started going to church again. We go to a Methodist church now, which is very chill compared like in comparison. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. April Ajoy: you know, and I still I still read my Bible. Every once in a while. But to me, like, I don't know. I to it's it is interesting to read it now though, because I just I have a different lens of like, this is not literal. I don't need to read this as like this literally happened. I have to literally do this thing. Like this is just a beautiful story about God and humans' understanding of who God is. And there's a lot of really profound wisdom in here about what to do and what not to do. and yeah, I just I don't know. I don't know if that answered your question. That was kind of convoluted, but that's where I'm at with it now. It's not like I don't know. I I still find myself getting triggered every once in a while when because I I get comments every day that's like, well, that it's some kind of scripture taken out of context to try to silence me, especially the woman, like I a woman must be silent. you know, so I I understand why I think more progressive Christians don't push reading the Bible as much because I do think a lot of people move from conservative spaces to those spaces. And I think it can just be triggering and it can take time to unlearn all of the harmful stuff to get to where you can learn like the really good stuff about it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. And that is the beautiful thing. I mean, you talk about your faith in Jesus. Like at the end of the day, like it's just like how we love, you know, like if you've got harm from a text, like Jesus is fine if you don't pick up like that text April Ajoy: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: again. If it's if it's harmful, like there's other ways. Like that's the beauty of God. It's just so big. can you talk about again your whole community? This was your family, this was your whole life. Can you talk about that wake up moment? I know you mentioned January sixth, but also what was it like to navigate your family and community with your wake-up moment? April Ajoy: Yeah. So I was very fortunate that my spouse was like, we kind of woke up at the same time. We were both like proud, never Trumpers from the beginning. And I I not to bring Trump into it, but he was the catalyst of Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah. April Ajoy: our deconstruction. So it was a very big wake-up call for both of us. I mean, there were things that happened prior to that too that led to that, but that was like the big one. So my spouse and I were on the same page. On that front, anyway. And I think, I think honestly, the most surprising thing wasn't even seeing all the Christians that were supporting Trump. Although that was still surprising. The surprising thing was all of the hate I immediately got when I just said, hey, maybe we should all vote third party, because both of these options are terrible. Like as Christians. And I immediately, like people said my late father, because my dad died of cancer in 2011. People were saying that he would have been disappointed in me because I didn't vote for Trump. I had people saying I was thwarting the will of God by not voting for Donald Trump, that he was by far the only Christian option, that he was God's chosen. You know, all of these things that, you know, that I was being led astray by Satan, like all of the stuff. And honestly, I felt. Like I knew in my heart, like I had so much peace about my decision to literally, and at that point, it was just to vote third party. Like I didn't even vote for the Democrat. and so that that was just a huge wake up call because I realized we're putting a lot of like soul and salvation emphasis on a vote in one country's election. You know, people were saying, like, I could not be a Christian. If I didn't vote for Donald Trump. Like that's how extreme it was getting. And so then I kind of was starting to recognize like the idolatry that existed within evangelicalism when it came to the Republican Party, but especially Donald Trump at at that time. And that was the thing that was the most shocking to me because I I was somewhat I was still conservative. I was still Republican at the time. I just didn't, I just could not bring my own like integrity. To vote for Donald Trump. And I was just so shocked. Like me, the worship leader, someone who grew up, like all I had ever done was spread the gospel and spread the love of Jesus. And I was still conservative. And honestly, we probably at that point still agreed on 99% of issues. Just that I didn't vote for Trump. Now I was instantly outcasted. And that to me. was just a huge red flag. And it made me think, okay, if these Christian leaders who I have respected my whole life, I know they're wrong about this, what else have they taught me that is also wrong? And so that's when I started really questioning a whole bunch of stuff. And it the domino started falling really quickly. but yeah, so like my extended family, I've been blocked by extended family. still Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. April Ajoy: a little some. but thankfully, like one of well, one of my brothers is gay, which that is a whole other story of like when he came out and stuff. But he was obviously on our side too in 2016. And then I had a couple family members that voted for Trump, but very begrudgingly. Like they just thought they had to because that was because he was Republican and they couldn't bring themselves to vote. you know, for Hillary or even third party, but like instantly regretted voting for him kind of situation and then never voted for him again. so I'm very fortunate that like my immediate family of my brothers and my mom were for the most part on the same page as us. but it was just extended family that thought we'd all gone off the deep end. Leigh/@followtheleighder: You mentioned the dominoes falling pretty quickly. There's like there's a a crack in the wall and the whole thing kind of comes down. and that you you were married and you were doing this at the same time as your partner was waking up. But I mean, those are massive things to come down. Like once you start questioning that, that's a lot of isolation, fear, insecurity, and then it bleeds. Like then it's like, well, if I got so twisted up with this institution and this community. Can I trust myself in other? I mean, it's it it can be a lot. Can you talk about what it was like to to rebuild or or to find the support as you're going through such a large existential crisis, I guess? April Ajoy: Yeah. I mean, it was it was very lonely and isolating for a while, you know, because you have these moments of doubt too, especially when everyone in your community is telling you that you're wrong. But you in your heart know you're not wrong, but you have those moments of like, am I the crazy one? Like, is everybody around me right? And I'm the one that's lost my mind, you know? So you I kind of felt like I was being gaslit the entire first like Trump term, like 2016 through 2020. But then I had kind of renewed sense of I guess confidence during 2020, during the pandemic. because I saw again so many Christians lose their minds over COVID. Like Refuse to wear a mask, refuse to social distance, refuse the vaccine. Like I the and like t somehow turn, you know, staying home into a Christian persecution narrative when like millions of people were dying globally. And I just remember being just dumbfounded at just the lack of empathy and the callousness that I saw so many fellow Christians have. You know, like I I've I even thought, like, okay, if it comes out in several years that masks were pointless and that nothing that we did helped, like I would still rather try to be helpful than just completely fight every recommendation while so many people are dying. so that honestly kind of gave me a renewed confidence in my position. Cause I was like, no, I know I'm on the right side of this. Like, I'm not. I'm not gonna l lose my humanity and my empathy over this like culture war and like Christian persecution complex. And then that same summer of 2020 was when George Floyd was murdered, and the Black Lives Matter protests started happening everywhere. And so in my small town, Tennessee, we actually had Black Lives Matter protests too. And we were protesting this huge Confederate statue that lived downtown to try to get it moved to a museum. And I was able to kind of rebuild community there because the vast majority of the people at this protest were Christians, but they were progressive Christians. And I didn't really know that was a thing. Like I had heard of them. Like I knew that they existed, but I hadn't really like met them. And I'm like, I think I'm you now. Like I think, I think this is my like my new community. And so that also helped because I actually had friends that were like, We love Jesus and we don't understand what's going on either. These like the people have lost their minds and almost like, my gosh, my people. So but then I also witnessed so much racism from being at those protests because and with they were completely peaceful and silent demonstrations because we were advised, like I mean, it was a small town Tennessee. So there was some danger. Around the corner. So we were just like, okay, we're gonna be peaceful and we're not going to engage because we don't want to, you know, escalate a situation. my gosh. The amount of people that counter-protested us with Confederate flags and Trump flags and American flags and Christian flags, like all the flags. They were just like waving waving them at us and saying incredibly racist stuff. Saying slurs to you know some of the black people on our side. Like truly awful. And I'll never forget though, one time a pastor, a local Baptist pastor, came to counter protest us and preached a sermon. He preached at us the whole time with this Bible. And one of the things he said was that the color of sin is black. I don't know why he decided to preach that to a group of people holding Black Lives Matter signs, but that video, someone got it on video, it went kind of viral. And people were calling him racist because he was defending a Confederate statue while yelling at people on a Black Lives Matter side that the color of sin is black. And instead of listening to anyone give that context and say, hey, this is why people think you're racist, he went on a Facebook Live for 45 minutes and doubled down. On how it wasn't possible for him to be racist because he had a black friend and the Holy Spirit inside of him does not allow him to be racist. And it was honestly just like this big wake-up call of just like how ignorant so many of my like fellow conservative evangelicals were on issues. Cause I remember being taught to like, no, we're not racist. We don't see color. But I was starting to. really learn a ton Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. April Ajoy: that summer about the realities of systemic racism and and like microaggressions and how you can still be racist even if you don't think you're racist. Like, and it was just that was a huge wake up call for me too, to also realize that I was on the right side of that history too. Even if it was arriving late. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and then I mean, you've done so much work since then. what has it been like to kind of get in the a new framework or what particularly around womanhood? I mean, you you mentioned earlier there was a lot of sex talk or no sex talk in high school, obviously antiqueer homophobia. but there were a lot of narrative and narratives and messages about what it meant to be a woman growing up. And what was it look like to unpack and and look at that a little bit more? April Ajoy: Yeah, and that was a huge challenge in my marriage because both of us tried to fit what we were taught as a husband and wife role. Course my my spouse has come out non binary since then. So we were both trying to fit into gender boxes that neither of us felt comfortable in. I hate cooking. But I felt like initially, and I'm not very good at it. And I felt initially like I had to be the one to cook all of our food because I was the wife and that was my role, completely ignoring the fact that Beecher was actually a very good cook and they actually enjoy it. But we were like, no, you can't do the thing you enjoy, and I have to do the thing that I hate because that's what the church tells us we have to do to be a good Christian married couple. And so, you know, after like overcooking chicken and, you know, oversalting green beans and And literally at one point I made a casserole, but I kept the plastic lid on it. And so it just melted into the casserole. After many instances like that, we were like, what are we doing? You just Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. April Ajoy: cook the meal. You know, like it's better for everybody if I stop cooking. And so, you know, eventually we kind of like we would still go to all the church marriage conferences. And honestly, like so many of those are so like gender stereotypes that they try to push of like. Women do this and men do this, and they're saying all these things, and I wasn't relating to what the women did, and Beecher wasn't relating to what the men did, and like I don't know, we just kind of felt weird after attending those. Of like, this doesn't this just none of this feels natural to us. Like, we're really trying to force this. But then we kind of just one day were like, What if we were just ourselves? And we're like, Yeah, that's a great idea. Let's try that. And then life got a lot better after that. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Yeah. It's like the the spirit loves loves authenticity or something. Like it's it's just April Ajoy: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: God's like, I made you this and you're like April Ajoy: Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: you to be this way. And you're like, I don't know. There's this church and they have these rules and like but no no, well and and yeah, the conferences especially, but but that is like I mean, you talked about the loneliness and the sadness, but really what I'm hearing is just a total lack of respect as you're walking out of the door. And I say that because we've had different guests on here who have had different departures. to where it was heartbreak. I mean it was like ugly and heartbreak. It had to, you know, do with the rapture or something. Like there was just like a something. and and sometimes it's ugly, it's sad, it's angry, or maybe there's a real harm. You know, there could have been a a physical or sexual component to it. But I mean, it sounds like yours was like you just looked around the room and you were like, I'm done. I am so done with you guys. And and and that's a that's a really nice place to be. I mean again, I know you said you you you certainly grieved, but it also allows you to to move into this platform and speak on it in a completely different way because you really are done with the the logic. And I know that you've been harmed, you've seen harmed, like we are all operating from our wound, but there are just different levels of what people are operating from. And I really appreciate that yours is very rhetorical cerebral. Like it's just like this isn't this isn't matching what we're preaching, or this has April Ajoy: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: gone so sideways. talk about the community that you talk about, I guess you you've obviously written a book. I wanna talk to you about that. But also how do from your book and your platform, talk about the community you've built since then. April Ajoy: Yeah, so we have a little bit of community out of church now. I mean that was years later. made some good friends at the protests, as I mentioned. But I do think going on I on TikTok t 2020 was a big year for for deconstruction and then also this career that I've landed on or landed in because it kind of happened by accident. I downloaded TikTok while we were quarantined at home during the pandemic. and just started posting stupid videos because I was bored and all my children my children were home and Beecher was home. And I was like, what if we make some funny, goofy like family videos to pass the time? And so that's initially what it was. I made like funny mom videos and it was literally just because I was bored. And then one day I made a video That was to it was a trend at the time on TikTok. But basically the the message was when you're a Christian who doesn't like Trump, you get kicked out of the club. It was just like a funny little, like stupid tongue-in-cheek thing. And it went really viral. It was like almost a million views, which at the time was a huge amount of views for me. And I was shocked at the hundreds and hundreds, I think pop probably even in the thousands of comments. Of people saying, I thought I was the only one. And I realized I'm not the only one who feels this way. And a lot of other people are in tune with this too. And it was very honestly, that was empowering just to realize, my gosh, there is a there are millions of people that feel this way that still love Jesus, but are feeling the same check in our spirits. And I just remember like kind of being excited and being like, my gosh. There's there's this whole community of people out here. So I started making friends just from people I met, like other creators on TikTok, and like we would meet up in person. And yeah, I was just kind of it, you know, and then there were a bunch of like Facebook groups that were starting at the time of like Christians against Trump or even like Republicans against Trump. I don't know. It was just like people that were like, Hey, we you're not alone. We are you're not crazy. We see this too. And it just kind of built from that, I guess. You know, it started small. but yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, it's it's powerful now. I mean, you've got almost a quarter million just on Instagram alone and you've got obviously your TikTok and f it's just like such a platform. How how was writing the book? Was it cathartic? Did it did was it re-traumatizing in ways? I mean, you cover a lot of personal ground and theological, by the way. So I mean you're definitely sitting with some scriptures, some academia, but also probably a journal or a diary. I mean, that must have been tough. Walk us through again, folks, her book is called Star Spangled Jesus, Leaving Christian Nationalism and Finding a True Faith. please talk to us about what April Ajoy: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: writing that book was like. April Ajoy: Sure. It was a lot harder than I ever anticipated writing a book would be. and I think part of that is because like we were also moving to a new state in the middle of me writing it. So there's there's a lot happening. but I I think to answer your question, like yes, all of the above, I It was therapeutic in a lot of ways because I was like tapping into like really old stories that I had forgotten about because I was just having to dig up all these old memories. but it was it I found the hardest part was writing about my dad because I when he died in 2011, I was 23 and we were very close. Like I I've I had always had a close relationship with my dad, even though like You know, we butted heads sometimes, but I would we were just I love I love my dad so much. Like we were very close. And when he died, we had the exact same beliefs about everything. We were on the same page. And I kind of always felt like I'm gonna carry on my dad's legacy and ministry and all this stuff. and so I had a I had my first panic attack of my life writing it because I just felt like, am I betraying my dad? by being honest about my upbringing. because I because I do think my my dad was a good person, even though he had some harmful beliefs, you know, and th those things can be hard to reconcile. And so I wanted to, I wanted to do his memory like honorably, where I was where I was honest about the some of the more harmful things, but also not demonizing, you know, at The same time. And I really wanted the fact that I love my dad to come through because I I do still love my dad. And I think, you know, deconstruction or anytime you leave some high control, like you, there's going to be complicated feelings of the people you leave behind from that world. so yeah, I think that was that was probably the hardest part. Cause then I also just had like normal grief that would come up when like I'm remembering some stories and I'm like, I remember when my dad did that. And that was like, That was a good day. And, you know, just being sad that he's gone and, you know, he doesn't have a chance to redeem his story. you know, so that was probably the hardest. But also I think to like my publisher, and I agree, I wanted the book to be funny because my, you know, my my brand is kind of f be funny, like let's laugh about the the the horrors of the world type thing. and so, you know. It it can be hard to make Christian nationalism funny sometimes. you Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah. yeah. April Ajoy: know so I try to put it in in just like my anecdotes and like my weird stories because there is a lot of weird goofy things that happen in evangelicalism, just in general. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, I truly I really enjoyed your book. And folks, I wanted to give you just a little bit of an excerpt before we hop off. just again, check out her book, Star Spangled Jesus. If you're watching, it's the book right behind her. But she said, Leaving the dogma behind and being able to walk through life without fearing every new little thing is a priceless freedom I never had before. The greatest benefit of the entire long journey is the peace I feel now. The ability to get to know people from all walks of life without being afraid of new questions they may bring with them. Having genuine human relations with no ulterior motive, not based on fear, but centered on love has been one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. Because John 316 doesn't say for God so loved America. Jesus didn't tell us to just love some neighbors, some neighbors. We weren't commanded to pick up our swords and fight for our rights. For God so loved the world. May we learn to love the people of the world too. May our nation be a place for all ethnicities, nationalities, orientations, identities, and beliefs. May we coexist in peace with all of God's beautiful creation, appreciating the glory and diversity and seeing the harm in oppression. Beautiful writing, beautiful book, beautiful theology, and just great conversation today, April. Folks, I I mean, April, you have Thank you. I hope that you come back sometime. I know that you have got a million and a half things going on, but I have so appreciated this conversation. April Ajoy: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Can can I just say too, like your voice is very soothing to listen to? It's a great voice for podcasts. Leigh/@followtheleighder: thank you. Thank thank you. I appreciate that. Well, folks, let me know your questions and your feedback in the comments. You all know the drill. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe. This has been another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and until next time, see ya.