Latest / The Accounting Podcast / TikTok Tactics and Four-Day Workweeks
Transcript
- Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding! Blake Oliver: [00:00:10] Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Accounting Podcast. I'm Blake Oliver. David Leary: [00:00:14] And I'm David Leary. Blake Oliver: [00:00:15] And today we have an exciting guest who's making waves in the accounting world known as the Queen of TikTok in accounting circles. She's a social media sensation and the founder and director of Two Sides Accounting and Two Sides Academy. She was recently featured on the cover of Acuity magazine. She's also a passionate advocate for work life balance, having implemented a four day workweek at her firm. Welcome to the show, Natalie Lennon. Natalie Lennon: [00:00:43] Wow, that was a pretty cool intro. Thank you Blake. Thank you, David, for having me. I'm very excited to be here on is it is it the it's it's listed as the best the best accounting podcast in the world that I, I don't know for the. Blake Oliver: [00:00:55] Best but we are the most downloaded. David Leary: [00:00:58] Yeah. Natalie Lennon: [00:00:59] Now people let's just cut that out and go. Just the best. Number one. Just the. Blake Oliver: [00:01:02] Best people. People might not love us, but that's okay because they listen. And we're really happy to talk to you, Natalie, because I got to meet you at Xerocon in Nashville. And I am so eager to get your take on zero and zero con, given that you are in the Australian market where zero dominates, and you came over to the US and got to see what it's like here, where zero is a competitor to QuickBooks. So I'm curious, what did you think of the event? Natalie Lennon: [00:01:34] And I guess just to, I guess, clarity to talk about how we actually met. It was funny because I was contacting Blake and trying to get him on my podcast and thought, let's catch up at Xero Con. And we didn't actually get to catch up at Xerocon. And then we met in the pool at the hotel. So it was definitely, yeah, we were definitely meant to meet, so that was pretty cool. Um, but yeah, let's get into it. So Zero Con in Nashville was so amazing. I didn't expect to get as much out of it as I did. I thought, you know, it's cool to go to Nashville. Probably somewhere that I'd never. You know, it wasn't on my list of places to go. Um, and then when I got the opportunity to come along, I thought, let's just go and see what it's all about. Zero cons. Always a fun time. And also being on the Zero Partner Advisory Council for Australia, I was very lucky to get to travel with 11 of my good friends as well, which also makes you know, for a fun time, but just learning about, you know, some of the differences between, you know, American accounting and Australian accounting and how there is a lot of similarities. But then there's a lot of things that are very, very different. Um, so I was very it was very interesting to find out, you know, that your businesses can choose their year end, which I thought was absolutely wild. Natalie Lennon: [00:02:40] And I don't know how you guys track that. Um, you guys have got over 700 direct bank feeds in Xero. We've got around 50 to 60. So that was pretty wild. Um, a couple of us Australians were sitting in the front row when they announced the feature request about the extra step in the bank. Rick, and I know you were talking about this on your last podcast about how this is great. This is, you know, game changing for zero in America. And we're all sitting there going, please do not bring that back. So for me, when I first started using zero, and I guess a lot of accountants and bookkeepers will feel the same way, we were like, where's that second step in the bank, Rick? And then as we got to using it, we were like, this is great. It's a lot quicker because you just do the, you know, the match screen and then you don't have to go on to the next screen. So we don't want it to come back. Whereas I think American accountants, as you said on the last podcast, Blake, are very set in their ways. And they're so used to doing that in QuickBooks that they, you know, they needed this step, right? Blake Oliver: [00:03:39] Yeah. It's it's interesting to me that the Australian accountants were able to adapt to it and adjusted. Was that like a long process of many years or are you all just like tech uh tech forward. And it wasn't a problem. Natalie Lennon: [00:03:56] Look, I think it depends who you ask. Like, I love tech and I love change. And so for me and some of the, you know, some of the accountants and the circles that I, um, you know, sort of are in, we love that stuff. And then there is some, you know, older accountants and bookkeepers who probably weren't as quick on the uptake. But it's interesting because in Australia, we always think that America is so far forward in tech. You know, you guys have got Silicon Valley and Google and all those things. But then there is some things that we seem to be ahead with. So like for example, um, the tap to pay that Xero announced, which is awesome. In Australia we've been tapping to pay at shops and supermarkets and things for years and years, but I've heard that the US hasn't had that for a very long time. Blake Oliver: [00:04:41] I think this past year was the first time where almost everywhere I go I'm paying with tap to pay. Yeah, and probably because of Apple Pay. Yeah, actually I, I was in Nashville and I tried to pay with cash somewhere and they wouldn't take it. So we finally gotten there. It took a while, though. I mean, you've been doing this for a decade. It seems like. Natalie Lennon: [00:05:01] Yeah. So I don't know. It just blows my mind that there is some things that we do quicker, some things that you guys do quicker. I would think that it should or would usually start in the US and then filter down to Australia. I don't know, maybe, maybe we are faster to adopt because there's not as many of us as there are in the US, so maybe that's why they do it. I'm not sure. David Leary: [00:05:21] And I mean, you let go of paper checks. You guys got way off of paper. No, two checks way before we did here in the States, which we're not even off of yet. Um, and you're right, the bank reconciliation screen. Just because, in a way, like you have to let go of that, that concept of the statement. And it was hard. I had the same problem. I went to Blake. I'm like, how do I reconcile? I couldn't figure it out. And zero, I know because. Natalie Lennon: [00:05:41] As an accountant you're like, no, but this is not a true bank rec. How do I actually know it's right? And it's like, okay, we've now learned that we go to the bank rec screen and if it's out of balance, then we're out of balance. You know, it's just those different, different learnings. But I guess because QuickBooks is obviously the key player in America. It's a little bit difficult, whereas in Australia we've got we had zero MYOB, QuickBooks say we had a whole range of different ones. So you know, potentially it wasn't just changing from one to the other. I don't know. David Leary: [00:06:11] And if I, if I hear the story correctly or if I have understood the story correctly, one of the reasons Xero got really good traction and maybe, I don't know, you can speak to how you the reason you started using Xero was that there were some governmental tax changes, or there was some changes in the other desktop apps couldn't implement them fast enough, and Xero was your only option on the market. I don't know if it was that kind of why you started using Xero. Natalie Lennon: [00:06:34] Look, I don't know if it was. I don't think it was necessarily the tax changes. I think it was more the apps. So a lot of the apps that first started coming out didn't talk to the other, didn't talk to MYOB. Um, I don't know. Maybe they didn't talk to QuickBooks at the time and QuickBooks and MYOB were still on the desktop, whereas Xero came right out the gate online. So they were able to be a lot more nimble in terms of building the functionality to talk to the apps, whereas QuickBooks and MYOB had to try and build the old desktop software and move it to the cloud. And it was very clunky. So in my previous firm, we were an MYOB firm, we started dabbling in Xero, and I just remember at the time and this is still an issue today, I don't understand why, you know, you get on to MYOB and there's that many different versions. So the first thing you've got to do is work out what version the client is on. Are they on a desktop that goes to the cloud? Are they on cloud? Um, there's a couple of different and then log ins are all different. Whereas with Xero you log in once and it's all there. So I think that was also one of the really good things when I first came to market was that it was beautiful software. It spoke to all the different apps that people were really keen to start implementing and using to increase their efficiency and productivity. Blake Oliver: [00:07:45] So Natalie, changing topics slightly, you have quite a presence on TikTok and I'm wondering what inspired you to start using TikTok for your practice and to give people some numbers behind this. You've got a few TikToks that have. I mean, you've got one that has half a million views. That's a lot of views. I think many of us would be happy to have a thousand. So what what inspired you to start using it and and how has it helped your business? Natalie Lennon: [00:08:14] So it actually sort of started a bit by accident. So I started using TikTok during Covid. Um, and I think it was at that period where it was like, if I don't laugh, I'm going to cry. And it was also the time where I thought, if the world is ending, I don't really care what anybody thinks of me. And so I started just showing up, being me, being a little bit funny, doing some funny videos. And then I started doing a lot of informational videos where I was just talking to camera about some of the things that government was bringing in because people wanted to know about, you know, all the incentives and what was going on. And it just sort of took off from there, because at that time, I was the only accountant doing that, but also doing it with a bit of humor, you know? So I would get up and I'd do a bit of a skit about, um, you know, during the lockdown time that, um, um, couple, the fast food places were closed, but McDonald's was open and you could only get a Big Mac. Um, you couldn't get chicken nuggets and you had to like just some, some things that were a little bit funny at the time. And when I watched them back, it's a little bit cringe. But at the time I was just having fun and it just resonated because it was authentic. It was real. And yeah, it just went from there. Blake Oliver: [00:09:25] And so you started sharing, uh, like are these tips for business owners? Is this tax advice like what kind of what kind of material works for you on TikTok these days? Natalie Lennon: [00:09:36] So I guess it's a bit of a mix. So it's business tips. Um, and and business tips, tax tips. And now that I'm a mentoring and coaching accountants, some behind the scenes of, you know, what I'm doing in my firm, what works for me, what they should try. I do find the things that work the most is things that are trending at the time. So around tax time, if I do videos on tax rates, you know how individual taxes work and things like that. There are things that go viral. But you know, I do want to let people know that if you're starting on social media, going viral is not the be all and end all. It's cool and it's brought me some really good opportunities, but you really just want to connect with your, you know, with your audience and be giving them some value. And, you know, back to that one that had five over 500,000 views. It was really just me answering a question from a follower. So there's a feature on TikTok where they can ask a question, you can respond with a video. And it was just explaining, just, you know, how the the tax rates work in regards to, you know, getting a refund and things like that. And just people were commenting and wanted to know, you know, all about it. Um, so yeah. Blake Oliver: [00:10:44] I think that's a great approach and a great way to get started, because accountants are always getting questions from clients and you probably are answering the same questions over and over again to the point where you could you could do it in like 60 to 90s. And so just if you don't know where to start, try doing that. Try doing a Q&A where you state a question and you can put that behind your head right at the top of the screen or something for people to read, and then you just answer it and that that that's a great way to create value. And you don't have to, you know, be funny or, you know, exciting. You're just giving information. David Leary: [00:11:21] You don't have to think about how to create a content. You have the content already, right? Natalie Lennon: [00:11:25] 100%. And this is what I'm teaching, obviously, um, the accountants that I'm mentoring. And I also have a TikTok for accountants course. And in the course, one of my key takeaways is to just get started. And what I say is to keep a list just on, you know, on the notes on your, um, on your computer or if you're a pen and paper person, just keep a pen and paper on your desk. And every time a client asks you a question about something, write it down and then do a quick video answering it and pop it up there like TikTok is not like, um, Instagram. It doesn't have to be pretty. It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be edited. Just quick video and put it up there. Don't think about it. Blake Oliver: [00:12:06] And then once you get some traction, you could invest some time in learning how to edit videos. But you don't need to do that to start. That's like that's like buying an expensive set of golf clubs before you've been to the driving range or something like that, right? Yeah, yeah. Just get started. Yeah. Natalie Lennon: [00:12:21] And I think that's why I like TikTok so much as well, is I started a bit of, you know, YouTube back in the day and it just took too long because I had to film it, then I had to edit it, then I had to put captions on it, and I had to make sure it was perfect and put a cover on it and all these things, and it just got too hard. Whereas TikTok, you can really just get some quick wins. David Leary: [00:12:39] Now I'm done. I'm not. I'm my arm is too tired to keep scrolling, but you have hundreds and hundreds of videos. I just keep scrolling, scrolling. But over and over again I see the pink. The pink jacket, the pink brand. You're wearing the pink jacket here? Yeah. Is this something you're obviously super conscious about? This. Is this your brand? It's like your. Hey, you recognize her because she's always in the pink. Is that. Natalie Lennon: [00:12:59] It's another thing that sort of happened by accident. So I bought the pink jacket because I love pink. I've got pink nails. Pink is like my thing. And then when I posted a video, not in my pink jacket, I would get people commenting saying, I didn't realize that was you, not in your pink jacket. And so then I thought, okay, this, I'm onto something here. So now I try to wear my pink jacket as much as I can, you know, when I go to conferences, unless I'm trying to be stealth and just get in and out, I'll wear my pea jacket and everybody knows where to find me. And it's become this sort of like, you know, where's Nat? There she is. Um, but yeah, it just means I can't. I can't go to places on the down low if I'm wearing my pink jacket these days. Blake Oliver: [00:13:35] Do you have a walk in closet at your house with, like, 20 pink jackets that are all, you know, lined up in a row? That's what. Natalie Lennon: [00:13:43] I've got. A couple. I've got a couple. They're different shades of pink. And this is my favorite one. And so I'm like, when this like I've had this now for a couple of years, so I'm going to have to invest in another one soon, I think as a backup. Blake Oliver: [00:13:55] What I love about it is that it's different. It stands out. Most accounting firms are using very muted, you know, the same color scheme like a dark blue or a you know, these these like stable colors. And and your brand is completely the opposite of that. And I imagine that resonates with the, the, the people who want to work with you. Natalie Lennon: [00:14:16] It definitely does because it's not, you know, your typical, you know, stuffy old accountant as I like to refer to them. You know, most of the time I'm pretty casual, you know, I'm in jeans, I'm approachable, you know, a lot of a lot of, um, clients, new clients will come to me and they say, we just love it because you're down to earth. We can approach you. We understand what you're talking about. You're not talking to us as if you're up here and we're down here. We're on the same level. And I think that starts, you know, the whole client journey from beginning right through, you know, to becoming a client because they're already watching what I'm doing. They're watching the videos. And like Dave and I were saying before, we don't know if we've met in person or not because of social media. So it's the same thing when a client comes to me. They feel like they already know me, they already trust me. And so then converting them to a client is a lot easier as well. So that's why I think more of us accountants need to just, you know, we don't like being in front of a camera. I know, but we just need to just, you know, start doing it, embrace it. Blake Oliver: [00:15:14] I want to talk to you about the four day workweek, because in acuity magazine, you talked about this. Your firm has switched to a four day workweek. Yeah. Um, how has that affected your team and your business? Is it hard to get everything done in four days? Natalie Lennon: [00:15:30] Look, at first it was. And look, it can be like it just. It does sometimes feel like those four days is, like, full on everyone trying to get the work done. But everybody really appreciates having that extra day. Um, sometimes I have that extra day off. Sometimes I use it to work on the business because I it's good. I'm not getting interrupted by anybody. Most of the clients know that. You know we're not around. Um, I do monitor the phones, so the phone goes to voicemail. So if it is important on a Friday, I will pick up the phone and call them back. But generally, they're pretty good. Um, you know, they don't interrupt us. And I think the other part that has contributed to us being able to do the four day work week is this time last year, we said goodbye to our office, and we're now 100% remote. So there's none of those little chats in the kitchen. There's none of, you know, those little things that all add up, right? And I think that came from Covid because in Covid, we had so much extra work to do with all the government things we had to help the clients with. But we got everything done and we were like, well, how did we manage that? When this is like our craziest time of year between March and June? And the secret was, is that we're all at home and we weren't, you know, having those watercooler chats. So now we've taken that out and we can fit more work into the four days. Blake Oliver: [00:16:47] I love that you send the calls to voicemail. That's a big takeaway I hear. I hear others recommend that is don't don't just pick up the phone is a really simple way to, you know, protect your time and to not get constantly interrupted. Uh, are there any other things you do to help maintain work life balance since, you know you're a firm owner, like everything rolls up to you at some point? Natalie Lennon: [00:17:12] Yeah, yeah. So just on the voicemail, we also have the voicemail on every day from 1:00 to 5:00. And what that does is it I guess it stops the clients from calling with those silly questions because they'll try and work it out themselves, or they'll email, which means we can triage it from, um, the admin team to whoever needs to look after it. We're not interrupting everyone's day, so that's been a bit of a game changer. And yeah, work life balance. I've got two little dogs, so I like walking them every morning. My husband owns a gym, which means I have no excuse not to exercise. I've got a built in trainer who says to me, get up off your butt and get to the gym. And he's there most nights too. So if I'm not there, I'm here on my own. So, you know, it's incentive to go. And I also do like to run, although it's when I say like it's a bit of a love hate relationship. Like I like to run because it's that time where I can really actually switch off my brain. And that's one of my ideas and things, you know, come up and I like it when it's finished. Blake Oliver: [00:18:11] Yeah, I used to love running, but at a certain point my knees just started to hurt. So I guess that's just, you know, getting older. Uh, and that's why that's why I picked up the swimming. But you can always stay fit, you know, like you can if you can find the time. You know, that was the hard part for me was for years and years I never prioritized it. I always had in the order of importance. It was work and then family and then health. And of course, my health fell by the wayside. And I feel like we have to change that, because ever since I started getting in shape, I have been like mentally more clear than I've ever been in my life. It really has an impact. Yeah. Natalie Lennon: [00:18:50] And look, you know, I say that I try to do all these things, and there's certain times of year when, you know, we're super busy and some of those things do fall on the wayside. But then I think it's important to have it at the front of mind to go, okay, if I'm not going to get to the gym this week because I'm really, really busy with all this stuff, I need to make time next week and just not let it, you know, not let the routine really drop off. And then six months in, you're like, oh no, you know, now I've got to start again. Yeah, you let it go for six months. Blake Oliver: [00:19:17] It's really hard to get started again. And that's the problem we have in the US. Is that our busy seasons I mean, we have two of them. So it is like six months out of the year. And it's hard to get into a routine when when you're in that kind of situation. Yeah. Um, so you're fully remote. You also embraced a fixed fee model. When was that? Was that a recent thing? Was that something you've been doing for a while? Natalie Lennon: [00:19:39] That was from day one. So in my old firm I was a partner. I had two other partners, but it was a legacy firm that was started in the 80s. So they were very much set in their ways, and we tried to bring in fixed fees, but it just it just never it just didn't work. I think trying to change clients is hard. So I think any advice to anyone starting would be start with the new clients, work out what you want to do with the fixed fee, and then when the new clients come in, put them on that, and then eventually you can go back to the older clients and move them in or move them on. Um, and so yeah, from day one, I was very much fixed monthly fees, um, packaging everything together. No one likes to get bills. And you know what they call Bill shock? Um, and not really know what's coming. They want to plan their cash flow. And so, you know, um, it's been a bit of a game changer as well because cash flow wise, I know exactly how much is coming in each month as a base. And obviously there's some ad hoc work that pops up and that's just, you know, icing on the cake. Natalie Lennon: [00:20:37] But the base, the base direct debits are happening every month, which means at Christmas time we normally close for 2 or 3 weeks, and no one's freaking out about cash flow. We don't have to have any extra put aside for that. Um, during Covid, it was really good as well because most businesses kept paying. We had a couple of businesses who were really struggling and we put them on pause, um, and a few things, but it just takes that conversation away as well, because every year at the start of the financial year in July, we reengage all of our clients for the year. We go, this is the price for the year. These are all the things we're going to do for you. Are you going to sign on again? And nine times out of ten they do. Obviously, it's a time of year when people are then looking to change accountants and we know that. But yeah, it's for me, I think it's a game changer to have the monthly fixed fees in your accounting firm. David Leary: [00:21:26] And if I'm looking at your plans, it looks like you're you have a base plan that gives you taxes. You get one meeting a year and then the next plan up. You don't have a price on, but it looks like it's accessibility. Do you want to have quarterly meetings? It's more frequency and you're charging for more access to the things you have to charge for, which is access to people. Because these are meetings, right? They're a zoom call. Right? Natalie Lennon: [00:21:48] Yeah. So the base package has like a quarterly check in via email. So we're still sort of giving them that regular touch point pushing out. You know, these are your profits. These are the things that you need to you know you're spending too much here or there. And here's how much to put aside for tax. And then the second plan up is quarterly check ins with me. Um, the smaller clients, we just do a half an hour zoom. Just a quick what's going on in your business here? Look at the figures, you know, that sort of thing. And then some of the bigger clients have an hour meeting, um, each quarter or each month because they need a little bit more and then, yeah, price on application we can customize depending on what the client needs. But I think because we do everything from bookkeeping right through to tax accounting and advisory, we've got that holistic view of the client, which was also interesting, learning from the Americans, because it seems like a lot of the Americans are quite siloed. So you've either got your bookkeeping or your accounting or your tax. There's not many or I don't know, is there anyone doing it all together? Because I know your tax laws are crazy, insane. Blake Oliver: [00:22:45] Very few. And there really should be more. Because when you combine the bookkeeping and the tax work, the tax just becomes so much more efficient. You already have most of what you need, and you can have your bookkeeping team gather it throughout the year. So I've always encouraged American firms to do that, but it's very hard to transition a traditional firm. Like you said, Natalie, you have partners who are kind of set in their ways on the tax side. And I think this is important. When you run an accounting services business, you have to be able to say no to certain types of clients. Yeah. And in a traditional firm, which might be run mostly by, say, tax partners, you can't say no when they give you a client. So it can become difficult to scale that kind of practice. Natalie Lennon: [00:23:35] And especially with the, you know, the different taxes in America. So what have you got? You've got local county, state and federal is that. And then all the different sales tax on top. I mean. Blake Oliver: [00:23:44] It. Yeah it can it can be a city. It can be state is federal. And then yeah, you can have even more beyond that local, even more local. Oh. Um, well, I think this is a great chance to talk about what's coming up. Natalie. Uh, what what projects are you working on? Any collaborations coming up? What are what are you up to? Natalie Lennon: [00:24:06] Um, so we've got a, um, a conference coming up, which is a new. Oh, probably a mini conference. Um, that's being put on by one of the app partners in November. It's called access all areas. And they're trying to or not. They're trying. They're going to get together, I think about 500 accountants. And we're going to have, you know, some fireside chats and collaboration type of things. Um, and it's the first one. So I think it's going to be quite exciting, a real chance for the accountants to actually get together and talk, because I think we go to these other conferences and we meet and we network and all the rest of it, but we don't actually get together and talk about, you know, different topics. So I'm giving a talk on, um, work life balance and productivity. So that's going to be kind of cool. Um, and then I'm also working on relaunching my TikTok course very soon. So that's coming up. And I'm also working on, um, at the moment I'm, I'm at capacity with my one on one mentoring and coaching. So I'm working away to, um, do that as more of a one to many. So a group coaching plus a course. Um, so yeah, it's all happening. It's a lot at the moment. Yeah, it's a lot. Blake Oliver: [00:25:10] If somebody wants to register for your TikTok course, where should they go? Natalie Lennon: [00:25:15] Um, well, it's a couple of places. Probably. Just check out the website. So W-2 signs. Academy.com Edu. Blake Oliver: [00:25:24] Great. And if you want to check out Natalie's TikTok and see, you know, some examples of really excellent accounting content you can go to at natalino. Natalino on TikTok. Natalie, the accountant. David Leary: [00:25:40] And you have a podcast too? Natalie Lennon: [00:25:42] I do, yes, sorry, I forgot about that. So it's called Totally Bossing It the podcast. There's a link to it on the Two Sides Academy website, or you can search it. Um, season one and two were more for the business owners. And then season three now is more for the accountants. Um, where I talk about anything from, um, you know, productivity, work life balance, teams, burnout. Um, just actually going to record a couple more episodes this afternoon. I've been on a bit of a hiatus. I was a bit sick before I came across to Nashville, and then I came back sick. So I haven't really been able to record anything. I've had this terrible cough. So I'm going to batch record a couple of those this afternoon. Blake Oliver: [00:26:20] Wonderful. Natalie, thanks for joining us. Great to talk to you. Natalie Lennon: [00:26:23] Thanks so much for having me. Blake and David, have an awesome afternoon.