Latest / In Tune Podcast / 9. Dr. Jim Karagiannis - Guarding the sacred trust in Chiropractic
Transcript
- Dr. Nick Harvey: Welcome to the In Tune Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Nick Harvey a chiropractor from Australia. This podcast is focused on getting deep with chiropractors globally and understanding their journey, their why, and what shaped them to be the chiropractors they are today. So come with me as we interview some great people within our profession so we can push chiropractic forwards. My guest today is a chiropractor who's been involved in the profession for the last 33 years. He's also a life and business coach for many chiropractors and individuals globally. And he was one of my first mentors in chiropractic as I worked on reception on his team for four years. Dr. Jim Karagiannis welcome to Intune. Jim Karagiannis: Thank you very much, Nick. Really grateful and glad to be here. Dr. Nick Harvey: Good to have on. Good to have you on. Jim, I'd love to start from the beginning of your journey in chiropractic. Jim Karagiannis: Right. Dr. Nick Harvey: thirty-three years ago, even even earlier than that actually, I'd love to start in in where you first understood you were gonna be a chiropractor and and where did that journey begin? Jim Karagiannis: It's a it's a great question, you know, like I'm always fascinated by origin stories and I always look at what were the instances or situations or the circumstances that led people to make these decisions. And I I remember Stephen Jobs said that sometimes you you can't make sense of things moving forward. You join the dots and looking backwards. And I can now look back and go, there are a series of experiences, situations people put in my place that influenced my path, my trajectory to become a chiropractor and specifically about how approached that. So if I go way back, way, way back, my family with a surname like Carra Gianus is it's a migrant story and and my parents moved to Australia. and so when I was about seven, you know, I I was a sickly kid. I actually had a lot of health challenges, didn't know what they were related to specifically, and my parents didn't know what to do. They didn't they didn't have a network of people that they could send us to. So but for Titously, we they bought a house and two doors up from us, there was a there was an there's an old guy from the old country and he would have been a l what's called a bone setter. All right. He would have been a chiropractor who learnt the trade back in Greece, who moved to Australia, who kinda helped people along. And and I went and saw him, I don't even know what he did, what he what he all but I remember distinctly He did something and I I wasn't able to eat. I wasn't thriving at all. And I literally quote unquote had some kind of inf impact influence. you might call it a crude adjustment as such. And I remember running home and opening up the fridge and just eating, eating, eating. And I now know that my system went from sympathetic to parasympathetic and I was suddenly but I had a a an epiphany and a light bulb moment where I went, boom, that's what I want to do. Whatever that is, that's what I want to do. And I didn't know about chiropractic as such. He you know, so I had further conversations with him and he said, You might want to consider this as chiropractic or and so he guided me to that pathway. All right. And and that's ultimately what led me to chiropractic. But even Another interesting component is so this guy was two doors up, but my mum and dad bought this house, it was a duplex. And the people that rented the house right next to us was a a a a faith healer, spiritual healer, and someone who went through you know, the pr the pathway of Didi Palmer and all those kind of historical con So through her I got to understand conversation. I'd see people teaming into the place. And in conversations with her she taught me about healing and and esoteric forms of healing, but also the power of intuition. And if I can fast forward that further on, and this will make a lot more sense, because it'll I I if I was listening to this I'd go, There are so many places that I could go. But what happened, she taught me about the power of intuition. And about two years later, and I've and I've documented this story, the power of intuition is very strong for me. I I listened to that, I I I trust that so much. And a couple of years later, I was at a family house, a family friend's house, and I was playing hide and seek with my brother. And when I was running around, I was hiding. I I came into the the parents' bedroom and there was a loaded gun in there. I didn't know it was loaded at the time. And I picked this the gun up when I got found. I was hiding behind the curtains. And when I got when I picked up the gun and I ran outside, I put this gun to my brother's head. And as a kid at like seven, eight, nine, whatever I was, seven, eight, I think, I was about to pull the trigger and I heard this don't do it. Right. It was like so clear and distinct. And I I I feel that that was you know, that that influences my belief systems and my influence and and and I didn't do it. And I pulled the gun away, fired it into the air and a huge explosion goes. So I know the trajectory of my life was influenced in that moment. By listening to my inner wisdom, innate, whatever it is you want to you talk about, and I was guided. And so there's a huge conjection in chiropractic whether people go, Are you were you chosen or or did you choose this? Well, I don't know. In in that scenario, I I think that there were some fingerprints that have well and truly influenced my path and trajectory along the way that I listened to. So that's the origin story. We we could go anywhere from that, Nick, in terms of where you want to go. Dr. Nick Harvey: Wow. Well, I don't think I've heard that story before. Maybe I haven't, I've just forgotten about it, but Jim Karagiannis: We were probably too busy, like we were probably focusing on so much of like the the procedural things of what we're doing, but now that's my origin story and that's why I'm so resolute and have a very strong inner conviction about what I do and I trust that and I trust that and I trust that in people. Dr. Nick Harvey: Yeah. Jim Karagiannis: yeah, and and it's and and it's never served me bad and never never never steered me on the wrong path, you know. And a and at times Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm. Jim Karagiannis: when I haven't listened to that, that's when it's gotten me into trouble. So I always I always listen to that, that that intuition. Dr. Nick Harvey: And that's where I want to deepen into into that intuition. That's a big, big aspect of chiropractic I love and am really involved in. Where did that start to lead you early into your career? You know, the early years of of university and who did that guide you to meet and what influence did that have over your early days in your career? Jim Karagiannis: great great question. There are so many, like I said, I'm I'm I'm Steve Jobs in it here, right? I'm looking back and looking at the situation. So I I I f I think what I took out of this whole thing was follow my own curiosity and also follow my intuition. And if things don't feel right, try and find out why. Is it my own fear? Is it my own apprehension? And if it is that, lean into that. But if it's purely something that's, hey, this is danger or or this is not right for you, I really listen to that. And th there are multiple times in my path in my life where if I'd turned left instead of right, I would have been dead. So I I it steered me so well. So I have this inner conviction. It ultimately led me to to chiropractic. I'm you know, you know, you know Bettina as well as probably not as well as I do, but you know Bettina very well. We met in ten week ten of first year. And we started so this is nineteen eighty-nine we started dating Week Ten of first year and we got married in fourth year, then a fourth year. Now that wasn't the dumb thing back then. but I just knew that this person was huge for me. You know, there were times where I nearly stepped out of the profession. in second year I was I remember failing a extra physics test of all things and I was like sitting on outside the library with my my my note. Sorry, I just bumped the camera there. I'm quite enthusiastic, Nick. And if you see me move my hands, I like the camera will move. That's that's what'll happen. And so I I had written my I'm out of here a letter. And she sat with me on outside the library and we talked it through and she helped me connect to the vision and the vision of the person that I would be and the mem the people that I would help. and so I I stuck with it, and that was a really profound moment. So I trusted that. And at the same token, we you know, we'd had this quote unquote conversation in the car. in fourth year and and it was a really instrumental conversation where that was like is this is my life w moving forward with you in it or with and and or without and because I decided that it was I took the moment and said, Hey, you know, would you marry me? And that was so I trusted that the timing like logistically and logically it made no sense. But I just knew that I knew that I knew that that was that was the inner conviction and so that guided me through there. And then there were multiple instances. So we then graduated and we moved up to Darwin and I did a whole lot of country runs, the whole of the whole top end. And and and then it was, you know, we had that inner knowing, okay, now it's time to do your own thing. And so we trusted that. And even once again, even though conventional wisdom at the time said, look, stick with what you're doing, stick to the certain thing, stick to the safe thing. It just didn't feel right. And and we bought a practice in Dubow, New South Wales, in the middle of the worst drought that ever had. And just built a huge empire of chiropractic practices in the central west of New South Wales, just going on the spirit of Love, serve, advance humanity. That was really it. That was that was our fundamental principle in there. So it can be a whole lot of influential people. Along the way, I've I've taken out some significant characters, lecturers, people. I remember Betina and I once had in first year actually, Reggie Gould was very instrumental for us. And not because he said anything specifically to us, but it created this argument amongst us. And the big one of the biggest arguments of turn I had was in first year where we were really getting clear on who we were, what we stood for and what chiropractic meant to us. And it was I was coming more from even though I'd had the a spiritual background, I came I'm I didn't get into chiropractic straight away. I did a couple of years of science and then I moved over and I think I brought my educated mind over and that's when we clashed and we had to just really work out, you know, if we're moving forward. on this, where do we stand? And that was he was pivotable instrument instrumental in that. Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm. And I think I just want to backpedal a little bit. I think something you said there was really powerful around having a moment in in practice or even in your early years of university where you just wanted to throw it all away. Cause even though the the amount of conviction you have, the amount of conviction I have for chiropractic, even in my short career, I've always known I wanted to be a chiropractor. I've definitely had moments of just wanting to throw the towel in. And I think that's important Jim Karagiannis: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: for chiropractors to hear. It's hard. It's it's really hard. Jim Karagiannis: Mm. Dr. Nick Harvey: It's it's a hard profession and it asks a lot of you too. And you know, if you're if you're having those considerations, dig deeper. Look, you know, look for some answers, connect with other people. what you said there with Bettina, I can definitely relate to that too. And I think that's one of the the healthiest things we can have is that conflict with some of the people closest to us because it it asks us to ask deeper questions and it asks us to build Build more conviction around why and what we believe in too. I've definitely definitely had my fair share of different people in my circle. What were the big things you guys disagreed on early in your career or or in university? Jim Karagiannis: Yeah, wow, that's that's a great question. A lot of it, so Bettina had some amazing experiences with people who were influential for her. And and I think it was I I I I had a level of trust in certain things, but I also had a healthy skepticism of things that I hadn't seen. And Bettina had more of a, you know, believe that when you believe it you'll see it. And I and I needed to go through the seeing to believe stage myself, right? And so tha I think that that was a closer. So she was talking about concepts and ideas that I trusted what I trusted for me, but I had a problem trying to transfer that over to things that I didn't have a reference for. And but whereas Bettina had a more an all compassing view and broad view of life where she didn't need to see it to believe at first. And so to me that was the gap. You know, how do we find a healthy medium for both that we can both feel aligned with. And that took me a little bit of doing. And and interestingly, once I started seeing the impact of chiropractic over and above what the educated mind told us was possible, it just blew any limitations through through me. You know, like I I I I talk I t I've t I've spoken about this publicly and you know, one of the times I remember hearing Gilles Lamarche at a Parker seminar many, many years ago talking about adjusting someone through the night, his son, Chris, who'd had explosions and b you know he was looking at basically being blind. And he adjusted him through the night and he had this repair that the the conventional medical care couldn't understand or explain. And I had one of those cases where I think it would have been third year, fourth year. Sorry, not fourth year, third or fourth year out of practice, maybe even yeah, third. And I had to drive like five hundred kilometers to go and see this guy. It's a story and a podcast in and of itself, how I even got there. But this guy had something that conventionally you were told that would never be amenable to chiropractic. And I remember he he kind of if I'm gonna open it up, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you what happened, right? So so long story short, I'm gonna try and abbreviate this very quickly. I got it was a Friday night in practice. And I get a phone call. And I'm waiting for the the answering machine to go off and I realize our CA's forgotten to turn the answering machine on. So that's why I used to bust your chops about all these things, Nick, when you were in our office. And and but I picked up the phone and this guy goes, Listen, can you help me? I'm really a lot of strife. I've had and he goes, I'm embarrassed to say this about my testicle. has swollen to the size of a a softball. And I'm like, holy smoke. I said, you actually need to get to hospital. He goes, I I can't, can you come and do a home visit? And I went, Okay, where where are you? Okay, listen, it's not a chiropractic issue. He goes, No, I'm I'm telling you it is. And I'm like, dude, it's not. And and we're having this standoff. And he gives me these his address and then I'm trying to go through back in the day where we didn't have internet back then, right? We had yellow pages. So I'm going through the yellow pages. I'm trying to find his address. I couldn't find it. I'm like, so I called this guy up. I go, listen, you I can't find your address here here in in in Dubai. He goes, No, I'm in Lightning Ridge. Lightning Ridge is like 500 kilometers away. I went, dude, you gotta be nuts. I'm not driving 500 kilometers to come and see you. I go, you need to go and see a hospital. He goes, and he goes, the two medical doctors that we hi have here are gone. They're away for the weekend. I have called every chiropractor within a five or six hundred kilometer radius. No one everybody's laughed at me. could you please help me? I'm telling you this is a chiropractic case. And I'm like How do I get myself into these things? But I just trusted and I went, okay. So I go home and I and I I I had this conversation with Bettina a while ago. I said, you know, one day someone's gonna call us up and just go, I wanna fly you in to take care of me and just exclusively. And so I've gone home, I go, you know that conversation that we had about this, well, I've had this situation. It's a place called Lightning Ridge. And she's What the hell's Lightning Ridge? And it was like a really desolate place many, many miles away. And and so we loaded up the car and drove. And our so son Sebastian, who's now 30, was like six months at the time. And we drove like five hours. I got there late and I adjusted this guy through the night. And and I looked at him straight away and I went, dude, it's it really it's not a chiropractic case. He goes, It is, I'm telling you, it is. And John Di Martini very very famously said, in those situations, he or she with the greatest level of certainty wins. And he had greater certainty than I did in that moment. I'm embarrassed to say that, but he did. And and I went, okay, dude. so I adjusted him through the night. I stayed there. You know, Bettina and Sebastian were at the hotel. And he was yeah, I adjusted him through the night every thirty minutes. I had a timer, got up, checked his atlas, because I wasn't gonna sideline this poor guy. I'm not gonna burst anything that was there, and I adjusted him you know, upper cervical and I wake up in the morning and he drops his duds, he's back to normal. I'm like, You're kidding me. And that just blew my mind. You know, I realised that sometimes you know, I wasn't the if I wasn't the the primary oscillator, I influenced negatively what was possible for people. And so even in practice, how that influenced me is that even though I may not know had that I never got to be the dream stealer. You know, I I wanted to guide people along the way, but who was I to say, no, you won't recover from this? 'Cause I don't know. You know, they they basically say that the five year survival rate of a of a health challenge is X. Well, how do I know whether you're in the group that are going to recover or not? You know, and so I never wanted to take that hope away from anybody. I always delivered and I and I surrendered to whatever was possible, but I couldn't be the the the obstacle or the or the bottleneck in someone's healing and health experience. expression. And so to me that's what governed my philosophy. It's like, dude, do what you do, show up in the most empowered state, be present, trust, and just let the let the rest of the the innate and whatever it is take care of itself. That's out of your control, but what is in with your control is that. So that was the energetic way that I intended to show up every time I connected with someone. Dr. Nick Harvey: Hey guys, I just wanted to quickly let you know I'm going to be running two-day adjusting seminars across Australia and New Zealand at the end of 2026 and into 2027. They're going to be two days of going deep into what I believe are the fundamental principles of adjusting: holding a high intention, getting deep with your presence, adjusting from positions of ease, and most of all, expressing the art at its highest form. If you're interested, there's a link below in the show notes, or you can go to www. inflowartistry.com.au. All right, back into it. Wow. That is extremely powerful. Jim Karagiannis: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: within that, he obviously had the conviction in the moment. But do you and also being a life coach, we can get into this too. I think there's a lot of similarities between being a life coach and and being a chiropractor, which is potentially why you're so passionate about that that area too. But do you think chiropractic is about seeing the potential in other humans that they can't see and then holding that highest vision? for them and their lives and delivering on it. Jim Karagiannis: I'd I'd love to think that that's what it is. You know, that's what my definition of it is, you know, but to me, you know, th I've had so many expressions of of people who have had that role in my life who weren't chiropractors. You know, like when I you know, I was a martial artist and have been a martial artist the a lot of my life. And the reason why I started this was because I was a kid who, you know, the a migrant kid who had way too much energy, I was getting into trouble. And I had a a school teacher who who held a vision of me, who could see that I was very enthusiastic and channeled that for me. And so he said, Listen, I want you to play some sports, but you really need to sort your stuff out. Go and get into a boxing gym, go to a martial arts gym. And I and I found peace in those areas because this guy's could see and and and could see a version of me that was a lot better than I was expressing at that time. You know, I've had so that that was really helpful. So Yes, for in in in my definition of chiropractic, to it's the expression of life. It's the optimization of potential in so many ways. You can have that in so many different forms. Right? There are a lot of chiropractors who may have a a a more limited view of what is possible. And if if people who have a a broader perspective come into sort of interactions with these people, they're gonna go, this person can't hold my vision of what is possible. So they're they're they're not they're not gonna be in a a a right fit. So it's important to be able to match where someone's at. but but yeah I'd like to believe that that's what we all do. I don't think we all do is is my my opinion and but sometimes people who can expand and see the greatness in us. I had like I had a you know when I say I was a migrant kid I couldn't speak English until I was seven and but I had this determination Which I carry. It's this dogged determination. And so I remember going into library, and I just borrowed the books, came back, and you know, two or three days later, I'd go back and borrow some more books. And I had this beautiful librarian, I remember her to this day. She could see what I was doing. She she just went, I I was borrowing every book from the A section, the first five books in the A section, and I planned to get through all of them. at to the Z section and she says, Honey, I can see what you're doing. And I admire your determination. But in between A and Z there's a whole lot of rubbish. Let me guide you to some really great books that will change your life. And that was to me, that's that's like someone who who whispered into my ear and said, Hey, let me guide you. So that's what I mean by the little clues along the way. So I I I got a lot more selective. I got clear on who I listened to and where I put my time and focus. And just going through the motions of just doing it because you have to didn't have as much influence. And I think that that's what has influenced my decisions about going into the path that I have in terms of consulting, coaching, all those kind of things, because to me it's it's the juice of things. That's what inspires and, you know, brings us all joy. Dr. Nick Harvey: Yeah, and I think one of the attributes that I admired about you the most is your determination and and just your pure work ethic to really get things done, or at least if you don't understand them, figure them out and and and move towards the goal. Jim Karagiannis: Hmm. Dr. Nick Harvey: I wan I want to take that back into moments of your career where that's really excelled and taken you to great places. But then also where is pure determination and work? also limited you or or not allow you to step higher on the bar. Jim Karagiannis: Look, that's a that's a really good question because I think that when I focus I I I've got a there's a this default switch that I have is I I I came along the lines of I will outwork everybody and I had this belief system. You know, you and I have spoken about this. you recognize it in people who have that default system and and that's really helpful because at sometimes you need that. But that can also become your your Achilles heel, right? That becomes the the weakness or the paradox that exists for you. And you think I have to work really hard, but then you buy into the illusion that's that's The only way. And so motivated, I could be motivated, but I could be motivated and then unfulfilled. And so I think that that's what got to me that we end through my first year of practice, you know, we practiced in Darwin. We went from flying up from Betir and I flew up to Darwin and there was an opportunity for us. It was all frontier chiropractic. It was like at its absolute core level. we were told that the this the practice that we were gonna take over was going to be one thing and it was definitely not that. And Batir and I used every last cent we had after we got married and we went to Darwin And used every last cent to get up there. We didn't have the money to fly back. That that's how that's how it got. And I just went, here's where these defining moments. Either go all in or I'm cooked. And so seven practices. We started. I started yeah, on country runs. And within you know two months they were profitable. Within 12 months, I had smashed every conceivable record of what I thought was possible. Sheered determination. I was working seven days a week on a plane, working through multiple time zones, and I got to the point where I went, I got it. I achieved I got to my effort, I'm unfulfilled, I don't want to do this anymore. And so to me, motivation and activity and action without fulfillment, without getting really, really clear on why you're doing what you're doing. i i i is empty. And so that was the first clue for me to go, I I just hated it. And it wasn't the the adjustment, it was the process, it was the model that I was following through. So I got to understand that achieving the outcome without fulfillment along the way was was not the case. So I had to shift shift it and moved it across to more inspiration. And so I changed my model and I followed through what was inspiring, what did I really enjoy doing, what parts didn't I enjoy doing. And i i i i it's interesting because, you know, you you're you're a dad now, you're a father, you understand this. The the the want and the need to provide and give your kids opportunities was the was the governing drive as well. So I wanted to help serve, but also wanted to take care of my family. And the moment that they and and and as things grew and we got busier and ex practices grew, that it was still fun, right? And I but I was still locked into that. But something happened really importantly when once our kids grew up and they had finished school and they're they're now self sufficient. They're 30 and 26 and they don't need me in that role. I then had to just do another audit to go, okay, dude. Well, the BS you were telling yourself about why you're doing things, that doesn't last anymore because I don't need that. What are you doing for you? What really floats your blow? What's truly inspiring for you? And so that's led me on another trajectory, a second mountain. You know, and so that's how I look at it differently. So it would have started with motivation, and I use motivation and I and I have discipline and all those kind of things. I've got them in my back pocket, I can rely on them. But I've learned over time that inspiration. is a catalyst that f filled my own cup and I had to follow my own joy and curiosity more so. I know it's a very long-winded answer to that, but I I think I've used both. Dr. Nick Harvey: No, that was great. That was really good. In that I think it's going to be really valuable for a lot of listeners to hear about the model you were working in in Doubo and and what that looked like and and what ultimately became unfulfilling about that model and what wasn't inspiring you. And then what was that path and that journey like to find a way that practice and chiropractic still inspired you? Jim Karagiannis: Okay. Great question. So we we took the The model that I that we had when I was practicing up in Darwin was very much practice in a main clinic and then go on satellite practice. So I'd jump on a plane and fly to into Dublin into Western Australia, Kananara, Derby and Broome, which is if you look at the map and then you you look at it and and Gove and Groot Island, that was a whole top end. And there was no chiropractic services at that time. But what I learnt about was the importance of running a lean operation. And so I'd literally work all day in a practice. go to the airport, jump on a plane, fly from New Northern Territory into Kananara WA because of the time difference, I'd get in at seven o'clock and I'd work till midnight. You know, and and it was just insane. It was really insane. But what I did learn was the importance of being able to be profitable and running lean operations at the time. So I took that with us and we moved to Dubbo, we we took over a practice and how we worked to find out that Dubbo was where we wanted to buy the practice. We went to the Bureau of Statistics at the time and find out found out that it was a country town. It was about a population of thirty, thirty-three thousand people, but it had a shopping population of 150,000 people. And so you know, we decided that you know we if we're gonna start a family by that time Better and I were married, we wanted to be in a country town. We wanted that to where we wanted a family grow up. So we went and did our research and found that Dubbo was the halfway point between Queensland and South Australia and like pretty much the whole region would would collapse before Dubbo did. So we knew the infrastructure was be able to support it, but it had a a multiple diversity of industries. So we did the research in that regard. when we went down there we we literally we bought we looked at the practice and it wasn't exceptionally well run, it was of exceptionally symptomatically run. And so we started bringing the philosophy of of what we saw chiropractic and understood the potential of people. And that grew very quickly. But then where it really just took off was we did this audit of where a lot of our people came from. And we realized that people were from the surrounding visit the towns were coming sometimes from two, three, four, five hundred kilometers away. And the only reason, you know, so we did a r we did a interview, kind of like a questionnaire, we reached out to them and said, Hey, We we get to see you once a year. what's the major limitation? And they go, dude, you know, it's 500 kilometers, it's not something that I can do every week. And the best we could do to say we said to them was, Okay, well, you're coming in once a year. If there was any chance that we could bring a satellite practice to you, would that serve you? And they go, Yeah, totally. So what I did is by that time, you know, we had a an associate in place. We charted a plane and I flew to seven locations. you know, we'd had we'd gone there individually, but w when we had our associate, we just chartered a plane and we flew to seven locations, set them all up, and we set up a practice. and the practice was initially very lean. It was it was like a hotel room and a foyer. And that's pretty much it. And when I first started it up in Darwin, I was my own CA. So everything was pre-booked from the associate. It was like old school, like write a pencil in none of these computer systems and stuff. It was like old school write and pencil and that was it. And and so it was pro and my and my principal would say, My expectation is that every run, every country run you have, whether you have flights or whatever, is profitable. And so that that got me acutely aware of the business hand and the healing hand. And it was really helpful because you can be the greatest chiropractor in the whole world if you don't understand the principles of service and business and trust and and whatever. It's really hard to build on that. And so by the same token, if you focus too far on business and you miss the the human element, that's going to compound that too. So for me, it was a wonderful sort of balance of both that I was acutely aware of very early on. And so we started very lean and because of that someone would would you know, we went from seeing someone once a a year to twelve times a year. And then most times because I'm there once a month, I'd see them that one day and then the next day. So we went from seeing someone once a year to twenty four times. And you do the math and that's just insane. So that's how quickly it grew. And but the limitation was, as a lot of people who work in country towns, is getting people to come out to those areas. And so when it got s we we we got to a really size practice, we had seven practices by that stage. But the limitation was always team and personnel and recruitment. So we either had to go exceptionally big or just get out, and we chose to get out for that reason. That was the reason why we moved back to Melbourne. Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm. And in that process with all that extr extra spare time, you know, back in Melbourne, how how was that? What what did you fill your fill your space with? Jim Karagiannis: it's funny, like coming back to Melbourne, and this is something that I talk a a lot about, like it's i out of all the things, out of all the stories that I because I I'm a storyteller. I like to like to tell stories and and you know, when people can see themselves in the story, then they could go, I got it, right? So so we moved back to Melbourne. w I actually when we decided to sell the practices in in Dubbo, it was literally a phone call. I I got onto our associate. I I got home one day and and Bettina said, Why are you grumpy? And I go, I don't know. What if you didn't know? Well, if I didn't know, I'd tell you. You know, it was one of those things. It it's really hard when your your life partner's also a coach because you can't BS at all. and so I said, Look, I don't think I want to be here anymore. And she goes, why? I go, look, I think I've outgrown it. I think I I think that I need more challenges. And she goes, okay, what are you gonna I said, I'm gonna call Kylie, who was our associate at the time, and see if she's interested. And I called up Kylie and she said, Yeah, I'm I I want I want the practices. So they were literally sold in the 30 minutes in principle. It was done. And we just but it took us a while to sell our house because it was a magnificent home, you know And took about six months. So we made the commitment, we would stay until we sold our home and then we'd go. But finally, after about six months, I went, I can't do this anymore. so we made the decision to go and we left Melbourne. we left for Melbourne and we arrived on September the eleventh. V day, right? September the eleventh, two thousand and one. And I had a whole lot of local work lined up and it literally just went boom, dried up straight away. No one wanted to go anywhere. And so we came back to Melbourne. And the only I had no options. I had 12 months of local work lined up. Well, there were no practices for sale. I went to our associate I went to our financial planner at the time and went, listen, do you know of any chiropractors that are selling a practice? Because I I I you know, I I need to I want to do something. And thankfully, you know, all the hard work that we had done put us in a position where we we had some time, we had some runway. and there was a guy in Brunswick West who was looking at retiring. And he was looking at retiring and but not quite yet. And so the the perfect scenario for him was someone who'd come in, work, take over, and then he'd gradually exit stage left. And that's what happened. And they put us into co he put us into contact with John John John Waterhouse, who's a like chiropractor of the year, esteemed chiropractor. and John John was like a father figure to me. Right. And a very interesting thing. This is a another component. And this ultimately is what led me to coaching, I believe. Because I was in such a awe of this guy, you know, and we'd come from a practice where a group of practice were exceptionally successful, come back to practice, I went, All right, I'll start here and I started from scratch. Started from scratch there. And John was working. But what was happening was I was growing up to a certain level and I and I couldn't go beyond this point and didn't know why. At the same time, Glenn McGinnis down from Mount Eliza, chiropractor who's very well known, called me up and said, Listen, I've hurt myself. I can't practice. is there any way you can help me out? And I went, Listen, I've just started to practice, I can probably get out there two or three times a week to help you out. And we were kind of equidistant. So we were living in i for anybody's in in Melbourne, we were kind of in Bentley. So Bentley's kind of like halfway between Brunswick and halfway between the coast. So You're looking at at least 40 kilometers, 30, 40 kilometers either way. And so two, three days of the week, I'm turning right at the highway, two days I'm learning left. so I spent a whole lot of time in the car. But what was happening is I'd go down, took over from Glenn, and it was a really busy practice. They've they've had a wonderful family-centric practice for many, many years, very successful. And I was seeing two or three times the amount of people, and I just couldn't get past the certain volume. So I'd go into the practice. And I'd be in Brunswick and I just couldn't get past a certain point. And at that point, that was when Parker Seminars first came to Australia. It was 2002. and I remember meeting John Hinwood, who ended up becoming my coach. And John Hinwood has coached so many chiropractors, not only in Australia but throughout the world. It was instrumental for me because You know, what he you know, I was telling him about what was going on and you know, I decided, okay, John, I can't work this out. Like I logically, I'm I'm I can do this. I've done this. I'm doing it you know, the side of the high of Melbourne, but I can't seem to do it in this practice. I don't know what's going on. I've said, I've done it before. We had multiple practices and he just laughed and he goes, who are you working with? And he and he knew John and he goes, I I think you're experiencing what's called Sunny syndrome. And I went Dale Sunny syndrome, I've never heard of that. And goes, It's it's the child in you who has such reverence and respect, you don't want to outshine your old man. And I went, whoa. And that was really profound. It was like, whoa, I I did that, you know, and and because my parents were migrants, you know, they Like they had to bust their chops to to give us an opportunity. They they they've gave up their own dream sorry, wishes and dreams sometimes for the opportunity to give us a better life. And I get really emotional about that because I know what that means. You know, and so I I I I and so that first year I I had carried a lot of guilt because I earned probably ten times what my dad did that first year. And You know, it's not all bad for mom and dad because the migrants in Australia, w in Melbourne particularly, had to work in a city. And 'cause that's where all the factories were. And they all bought houses in a city. And then when the factories moved away, property prices exploded. So that did okay with that. So my dad did okay even on, you know, an average salary. but but what it But what happened was as soon as John Hinwood, the coach, helped me identify that that was a subconscious block that I was putting in my mind, the practice like quadruple, triple, quadruple within no time. Just went boom. because I was putting these invisible brakes on my my potential capacity because I didn't want to outshine the person that I was with. It wasn't an ego thing, it was like ultimate respect. And being a martial artist as I am, you had the sensei, and that's how I saw him, you know, and I had reverence for that. So That happened then I and I went and spoke to my dad about this and and I thought I need to clean this up with my dad because I feel really bad about it. Okay, hey dad, you know, like I just need to clean something up. I said, you know, that first year, like, I earned so much money compared to what you I know you would earn. And I feel really guilty about that. And I just wanted to clean it up. And he just looked at me in the eye, he goes, What do you think it was all about? I go, What do you mean? He goes, Why do you think that we packed up Went to the other side of the world for is to give you the opportunities that we never had. And you taking that up is the validation. And I just I got really emotional at that time. I went, I got it. I got it. You know. So that has been the the filter and the the way that I've approached it through our kids as well, too. where I I want to inspire you to find your own equivalent. and but I want you the natural order of things is I want you to grow to your potential over over take anything that I could possibly do Because you're doing it for yourself. But you're coming from a place of fulfillment as opposed to a void. And for the longest time for me, I think the motivation for me was coming from a void. And when I flipped it and moved to fulfillment, it changed everything. So they're some of the origin stories that influence that. And and I saw the power of you know, coaching, mentoring along the way that helps people find their own truth, not v th the coach's version of it. And I I think that really influences how I go about things. Dr. Nick Harvey: if you're a chiropractic student or a chiropractor and you're curious about how you might be able to improve your adjusting, I've created a free quiz on inflow artistry all about going deep into what I believe are the five most fundamental foundations of adjusting. It's completely free. It'll take you about 10 minutes to fill out, and it'll give you a detailed report of where you're doing well and where you might be able to improve. If you're interested, the link will be below in the show notes, or you can go to inflowartistry.com. dot-ayy-you slash quiz. Mm. Wow. Wow. I think one thing, especially in Australia, where we're really missing at the moment, is that high level of practice management and and coaching and and coaches that get you to look inwards and and ask the questions about what what are you blocking in your own life? And as as you said too, get them to ask better questions and and find their own version of the truth, which at you working alongside you, working for you, coach I've coached with you. I know you do extremely well every time I've come to you with a problem or a challenges. Get me to look within. Yeah, I think that that is a very missed element of of what I see a lack of within Australia at the moment. And I I want to take you back a a bit too and and and really to look at a young man that walked into your office in twenty eighteen. who who was extremely lost, which was Yeah. We both Jim Karagiannis: That we both we both know well. Dr. Nick Harvey: know well. Th this young man and I funny, we're we're talking about this just now, two days after I shared this story on the weekend at my first seminar, Inflow Artistry, this is yeah. Jim Karagiannis: Yeah, I saw that man. That was great. That was, you know, and I I can I can tell you how happy I was to see that too. I saw it and we talked about it in a concept form and to f to see it come to life, so happy for you. That was so cool to see. Yeah, yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: Thank you. Thank you. But I I spoke about my origin story of a young, dysregulated man com coming in and knowing he wanted to be a chiropractor chiropractor but not knowing what for. And I I told the story of of coming into your office and I was, you know, told by people close to me, you know, men men don't get reception jobs, men don't get reception jobs and I was already half an hour late to this initial job interview, but I I just I drag like you said, that intuition I dragged myself in. And on that second interview again, I number one, I don't know how I got a second interview from being late to the first one. But on the second one I was half an hour late once again. and you guys hired me. You guys absolutely changed my life. And I I'd love to deepen into that story of one, you said intuition was really powerful. What was your intuition telling you? And what were you seeing within me that I hadn't yet seen within myself. Jim Karagiannis: Yeah. but that that that that's such a beautiful time and and Better and I hold you in in in really high regard. Like Make no mistake, we were harder on you than any CA we ever did, we ever had. That's the truth. And I used to tell you that at the time, right? But we could see something in you. Like there was just this, like, you know, there's this essence about you, Nick, that we've loved, you know. And and and it helps that you're halfway between our two sons' age, right? So we saw that as a you know, I I saw my role specifically at you know, there was a father figure in between sort of a mother figure. So we could see that. and you were at the age in there, but like I've always been of the view that in those formative years when you can see someone's trying to work through some stuff, they're gonna make some mistakes, right? And you you you can't burn You can't burn you know? And yeah, like if in the classic scenario, if I was if I was following absolutism thinking, half an hour late, that's done, that's gone, you know, in conventional thing. But I'm not sure if you remember if you ever met Donna. Did you ever meet Donna? Donna was a CA for us. All Dr. Nick Harvey: No, I don't I don't believe so. Jim Karagiannis: right. So Donna was a a CA that we had that worked with us for a while. But it was really interesting because we what what we did is Dana was also 30 minutes late. And you know, if anybody knows me, I I punctuality is really important to me. I get really stressed, right? So for the fact that we're even having this conversation, there was something about you that you've got to own that allowed you to get past my own projection of because that doesn't work for me. but I had to just pa get my past my own judgment of okay, he's 30 minutes late, but there's something about this guy. And we we persisted. But Donna was one of these ones where in an ad we went looking for a care caring, nurturing, loving person to join our practice. Donna was also thirty minutes late. And Donna walks in, she goes, Listen, I'm really, really sorry. I'm 30 minutes late. By that stage, we were like, man, I'm annoyed. But Dana comes in and he goes, Look, I'm really sorry. while I was driving here, I saw that there was an injured bird on the side of the road. And I pulled over and nurtured and I called the, you know, some help and whatever, and that's meant me late meant I'm late. And if that means I'm running, I don't have an opportunity, I'm really sorry, but at least I wanted to come here to show you the courtesy. And I just went. That's exactly what we're looking for. You've exemplified it. And we went, okay, come back for a second interview. So I what's important to me is not what someone showed because we've also had people who presented exceptionally well and then they came to the office and they were nothing like the person who presented. So I got to learn to look beyond the facade. What's really going on? And I and and we knew, like I I knew there was more to you than what you were expressing. And there were times where we went, Nick, one day you're gonna be have running your own practice. This you need to step up here. And we challenged you and boy did we set challenges for you. not only technically and and like competency wise, but also internally. And and and to your credit, no one has ever taken that feedback on. It was always delivered in the spirit of I want the best for you. I love you, I want the best for you. And you always took it on. It was like, you know, dust it off and get on. And and I respected that. And and that meant you were coachable. That meant you were open. That meant you really wanted to get better. You just needed some guidance and support. That's how I saw it. Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm. And that's a term I've really started to look deeper into in practice. And the people I look for within my circle, the number one trait I need in the people around me is that they're coachable, the people that work for me. Jim Karagiannis: Mm. Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: More more than anything. More than anything. So for you, is is that a trainable trainable trait? Co coachability? And I I think credit to you as well. You're extremely great at. at giving feedback in a really gentle, informative, but still powerful way. So th there's a two part to that. Number one, coachability, but two, giving feedback in a way that can shift someone internally. How does that Jim Karagiannis: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: work? Jim Karagiannis: I think in large part, like I I've had to do a lot of work on myself to get to the point to do that. So you can imagine I've I've had mentors and coaches for a long time. I coached with John Hidwood for many, many years. And when we joined Powerful Practices, and we we owned Powerful Practices in conjunction with a couple other people, the the the qualification process was you've got to go and do your own training, but the expectation was you're doing your own work. Right. And so we would coach, but we would have to have a coach as well. We had an accountability. And so I think that what allows someone to be coachable is that their willingness to actually look at their own stuff. And I remember when we went and started our coach program, the first day one, you know, lesson one day one was the biggest coach job you'll ever do is on yourself. And if you think that, you know, t and and I think coaching gets a bad rap. sometimes as as does chiropractic, you know, but it's like you you really need to be discerning in terms of who you entrust. but but mentoring is different. Mentoring is like this is what I've done This is you know, you know, asking me questions and I'm and I'm answering. This is what I've done. But ultimately coaching to me what I I really enjoyed about it was the fact that it was actually very p introspective. It was about you and it was about what's your truth. How do we find that? And we had to the the way someone becomes coachable is their willingness to look at their own stuff. And to me, what I would you know, like if we had shared what we shared to you and your behavior didn't change and you were rejecting it, you were knocking no no, no, no, look at it. We knew that there was a limitation at that time that you would be able to get to. But to me that's what that's what the governing principle is. If someone can actually and i it's the willingness to have those tough conversations, number one, you've gotta you've gotta lean in and do that. But to me, they're coming from lo what's called life giving versus life taking. So if I'm you know, and that's a term that I was basically has w has come into play for many, many years from some of the programs that we've done. If I'm if my intention is to actually help you through this, I'm coming from a place of love. I'm not here to try to torture you. And while it's difficult and uncomfortable, it's coming from a place of love. And so I will do whatever it takes to have those conversations. I avoid like the the the mortal human part of me gets angry as well. And I've had to manage my own basically stuff before then I deliver feedback. So if I needed if I was angry at you or somebody else, even my kids, I had to just check in that how am I delivering this? You know, because that then determines how they s view authority, how you know, how it impacts if you've got a you know, young daughters, for example, and you're communicating information to them, well, you're gonna wanna you're gonna have to admit that that's gonna influence how they see men moving forward. Right. And so I really th I think that the heaviness and the responsibility of that really landed with me. And so, that's why I I I I make it a really important point. I don't always get it right by all means, but I I I've learnt that how you deliver information is almost just as if not more important than what you deliver. Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm, that's extremely powerful. And I think you mentioned an interesting point there too about ego. Because and I'm gonna rock the boat a little bit here in in chiropractic, but at this current moment, and maybe I'm a maybe I'm young and maybe I haven't seen enough of it, but I see a lot of ego at the moment within within chiropractic that I think is really holding it back. And I think the ego blocks it is a subluxation for someone to look within and and admit that they could be wrong or admit that they have to change or admit that they need to be better. I'm not sure if you see that too and you know as a coach yourself, as a chiropractor, as a man with a lot of wisdom and that has seen a lot of shifts within the profession. Number one, do you think that is a current block for for chiropractic? And two, what do you think the path is forwards? Jim Karagiannis: Look 100%. Hundred percent. look, I I've always said I love chiropractic, haven't always loved chiropractic doors, because that's the human component, right? And that because a lot of them are driven by ego and agenda and and so I think that the part that's the part of me that gets disillusioned because I've held held chiropractic in such purity and and and such reverence that I I want the custodians of the people who are looking after the sacred trust to be people who are integrist. So that's just what I look for. is it largely ego driven? Yes it is, because truth be known, not everybody's interested in the same outcome. Not everybody's interested in, you know, because we a lot of in chiropractic we've been led to believe that if you would do this like everybody else, you will get this and this and this. And at the end of the day, like I said, I was I was proof of that. within the first year of practice I got you know I smashed every record you could possibly imagine and yet I was the most miserable ever was. And so I that doesn't mean that it can't happen together if that's how you want to practice. But to me authentically practicing from a place that is right for you is is really important. And so to me that that's the pathway. The other part of it is to go, okay, how do we nurture our a young and and the the the the saddest thing that I see is you know as a profession, I can say Because I'm older now, we we basically we eat our young, we just we set them out to dry and they're just they're getting smashed. but by the same token, a lot of the young graduates are coming out and despondent that no one can be trust that they can trust anybody to guide them, go in to take on experiences and debt way before they should, and then they get into trouble themselves and suddenly out of profession. So I I think that that's a really important process. There's no real cons custodianship of looking up. after and and n nurturing and mentoring our young chiropractors along the way and he's gonna be the part that I I'm I'm really gonna rock some boats as well too which is what I do and and that's okay. I think the pathway forward is women. I really feel strongly that and and interestingly it's no it's no I I thought when I started doing the work I do with chiropractors and I coach a lot of people outside of chiropractic as well. But I thought most of my appeal would be to men. And in actual fact there's a particular type of man who's very coachable, like you, right? If if the if I if someone comes along because I have a presence, a a confidence in myself, the really masculine blokey blokes don't like that. Right. And so either they're gonna be coachable or we're just not gonna get along very well at all. Right. Because I don't need someone to try to showcase that. So that to me is the is the prism through which I view can I work with people. But by and large, eighty per s seventy five percent of now of women are women who are phenomenal in themselves, but they've got to step into their own power. And not a power dictated to them by somebody else, but it's their own power. And not just in a girly princess energy. I'm talking like sovereign queen. Like, and and I I and a reason why I I say that so strongly is I had one as a mum, and I've got one as a wife. And I know how powerful it is. And and to me, that femininity brings connection and essence and and and a lot of the problems that we're having fundamentally. In chiropractic, are male-driven, ego-driven, agenda-based stuff, and it annoys the heck out of me. And so that's why I've I I keep challenging a lot of the women that I work with. It's like, okay, how do you step into that power? How do step into creating the future that you want to see and being the person who carries the torch for the women behind you who can see a sovereign strong woman? And so that's that's what I see. And I see a lot less w ego with women than I do with the men. You know, they're more open to it. And because I also because they're hard driven w because I can hold the masculinity, they allow to drop into femininity. And that creates their their their their ideal lives in terms of I'm running this practice, I'm running these businesses, but I'm unfulfilled and I can guide them through that process. So I don't know, that's a that's a that's an all-encompassing theme and and process, but to me it's about just getting back to true essence. It doesn't mean the guys can't do it, but they really have to be humbled in a lot of ways. And humbled in terms of not in a physical way. And and maybe it's because ego doesn't play a big part of my life and world, because the people that I work with, they're doing phenomenal things on stages and world events all over the world. And you wouldn't know it. Because I'm not the guy who will steal their light. All right. And to me, that's where the ego, as a coach, I could be going, Yeah, that's my dog. I don't wanna do that, right? 'Cause it's not about me. It's n it's about them and helping them find that that that essence and power and and I and I said I feel really strongly about it. And maybe it's because I you know, as I said, I'm a martial artist, I did jujitsu, and I've done jujitsu for many, many years. Well you get regularly humbled. You know, you can walk in thinking I'm just the, you know, new sheriffs in town. You get humbled within thirty seconds. And something happens to you when that happens on the regular that you actually you you it goes from your your way of being. And so you can actually focus on what's really true. And and to me that's they're the ones that I value. Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm. The connection to the feminine. The femininity is I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. That's that's the balance that needs to be reinstated. And you you mentioned about being humbled. I think if you don't find your your humbleness, life and and God will humble you. You know, in a in a in a not pretty way. In a not pretty way Jim Karagiannis: Totally, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: a lot of the time. Jim Karagiannis: Yeah, and the key the key is, you know, take the whispers. Here's a here's a good life lessons. Listen to the whispers when they're whispers and little taps on the shoulders. Because if you don't, they're gonna be it's gonna be a whack to the side of the head. You know, and I think that that's what I'm talking about by intuition and listening and you know, sometimes I go, No, no, I wanna do it. I wanna override it manually and and you know, egoically as a as a mortal person. And I go, No, that you know, just follow the principles, just listen to what is is the tr truth and don't try and get in the way. Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm. And you mentioned something before about the sacred trust. And I'm gonna butcher this quote, but you yourself and Bettina gave me a beautiful gift of a a compass when I moved on from from Mall and chiropractic. And I believe it it was BJ, in in your hands lies a sacred trust. Guard it well. What is the what Jim Karagiannis: Got it well. Yeah. Yeah. And Dr. Nick Harvey: does the sacred trust mean to you? Jim Karagiannis: Sacred trust to me is the principles of what it means not only just to b not chiropractic, but human principles, you know, of love, connection. And they're the ones that are important that we guard well. We we you know, like a a family structure is really important to me. You know, I'm I'm incredibly blessed to have been happily married for thirty three years and I've got two amazing sons I'm really connected to. So that to me is a is a sacred trust that I guard well and I I I I honour and I'll do everything I can to preserve that and and you know, I may be more seen as more conservative in some of my views, but they're important to me. You know, they're they're that's what and I will defend the right for those. interestingly, I did this convers I did this talk in in the UK where I brought into relationship the samurai and the sacred trust. And what The the samurai what's fascinated about samurai, they're the set of principles they go by, honor, loyalty, etc. And but we hear about sacred trust and we go defend the sacred trust, guard it well. How do you do that? You know, it wasn't until I stopped and thought, okay, yeah, guard it well, I know the quote, but how do I guard it well? You know, and to me, guarding it well means that you how do how do we preserve the memory of something? Through story, through telling the story, through having the courage to tell the story. Right? And to morally stand up for what is right and what is wrong. That's how you defend a sacred trust. And to me, I apply that as a principle in my life, my world, my relationship with my kids. And so that's how I preserved that. And and so when there were rights being put up about restricting chiropractic and its scope of practice, I stood up for those. You know, so that's the guarding it well because it's not just I I'm I'm you know, I'm in my late fifties, you know, I'm at a different stage of my career than you are. But I would hope that not only for humanity, but also if my kids or grandkids ever decided that I want to start chiropractic, I was at the forefront of defending their right to be able to practice it the way they want. And so to me that's really, really important. And that's where You know, unless you understand history, you're you're bound to repeat those same mistakes. And to me, that's some of those things that I realised that if you give your power away at certain times, it's very hard to get it back. And that that's the essence of it. So so I use the example of the samurai because they were effectively, you know, they would preserve the crown and the emperor and take care of them. But here's something that a lot of people don't know about the the samurai is a lot of them are women. A lot of them were women. And and for women who feel that in this world it's it's about, you know, the the masculinity is the is the are the defenders. No, no, no. It's it's the women who actually surpr and when I did this talk, I remember the number of women who were blown away. It's like, wow, I didn't even realize that that's power that was power within us. And that's what it is. That's what the essence of revealing something to someone in their blind spot is all about when you actually help them identify the power within themselves. And that power then while I spent fifteen years or ten years or whatever it is I forget now coaching systems and procedures, I know I'm back to Front Inside Out. What I realized had more of an impact was that. Because you could support someone with systems and procedures, but if they are hold true hold true to themselves and and they own their own power and identity, then then they they're just communicating. They're not worrying about selling. They're not worrying about convincing someone of something that's not a priority to them. So, hey, I care about you. And because I care about you, I want to tell something. Here's what I believe is gonna help you, your family, and the rest, everybody you know, improve a healthy life. Is that of interest to you? And suddenly you're not selling anything, you're creating, you're being the leader that your community knows. needs and so from that place you're not having to worry about management because you're actually relating to people. So that to me is the what preserving the sacred trust is is about speaking it, communicating it, standing up for it, sharing it, and opening it up. It's probably no different to faith, right? You know, some people you're gonna share a story. And so I I I have this very quick filter when if I'm talking to someone and I'd go, listen, I'm just just curious, are you open to the possibility of of this? And if they go no, I'll go, Well I'm not gonna waste half an hour now trying to convince you of something, I'll move on. But if someone I'll go, hey, have you ever wondered why or have you ever considered how or would you like to know? And they go yes, then you've got someone who you can actually share an idea with. That could be a principle, that could be your faith, that could be whatever, a suggestion, a restaurant recommendation. So that's the coachability that I always look for when I'm when Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And I'm just loving all the wisdom that's coming out of this podcast. And I want to take it back to to the elements of healing. Cause our relationship has brought a lot of healing into my life. And I'll get into that just after I I ask this question. But what what is healing to you and and what is it we're really doing in chiropractic when we lay hands on someone? Jim Karagiannis: I think there's a there's definitely a the To me it's the it's the energetic exchange. That's first and foremost is the case. It's not transactional, it's not a a a mechanical system. And and I understand and appreciate I don't have a problem with people having a a a different paradigm to mine. I'm okay with that. But fundamentally, if you don't think that you influence people and behavior by virtue of who you are and how you show up, you're missing something. You know, and so to me, as a healer, we're we're creating a portal and an environment where change can occur safe change and so i interestingly when i did one of my coaching accreditations the concept of selling came up and people feel really uncomfortable about the concept of selling and it was reframed by my reframed for me well called ben harvey not not a real relative of yours nick but ben shared and said that selling is healing. And I went, How how how do you work that? And he said, Well Often what happens for people is if you've got a solution to something that's causing someone angst or a problem, then you're sharing it. And so that's what selling is. You're you're communicating an idea and a concept. Where it's where people get uncomfortable is if you're a match for what they need, you're just sharing that information. There's no there's no ickiness about it. But if you're trying to convince of some something to somebody that's not their priority, that's not what they want, you're trying to stitch them up, then that's that's that's not right. And so to me, I went, I got it. So healing is really about identifying what's there, what's causing yeah, pa people use the concept pain point, but it's causing them lot of grief. And if you've got a solution to that, Gila Marshall always says, what gives you the right to have the a solution to a problem and not share it? Right. And so I found that really helpful is that if I could identify there was something in there, it was the human part of me that was willing to get out of my own way and and risk rejection and go, Hey, I've got a solution for you. Are you interested? If you're not, that's okay. But at least I can live with myself because I've shared that. What you do with it now it's yours. It's no different to, you know, you see a a beggar in the street and I've had to and you go, if I give you money, right It's me giving it that's the that's the thing. What you do with it after then, you may use it for whatever you want, but that's not my story. I can't get bored but into that. It's like so I'm like, Am I willing to give or not? Is really what we've got to focus on. And so that to me is Well look at it healing is creating an environment, staying open to those discoveries. And then and then what Ben said, which is phenomenal, it's helped me as well. He says the essence of a of a heart-centered business is if you find answers to your own problems and in helping other people you help yourself. So I'm gonna go back and say that because a lot of times if you realize that growing up you had challenges and And now in your current form, the games we play as kids become what we take on and do later on. If you're helping everybody in do that, you're fundamentally at a subconscious level healing yourself because you're helping people and you're seeing the outcome and the solution. So to me, why I love and I realise I I I in in chiropractic practice, I you know, the adjustment was powerful, but to me what was my favorite visits was visit two. Right, I report. I love visit one, visit two. Were always my favorite visits because I got to open the mind of someone to the possibility of something else. And it's no wonder now that's what I do. you know, it's kind of like it it's taken its its form. So and I help people find solutions and sometimes healing in in a different form. Right. But to me that's what healing is, is creating a a platform for people to lean into and and recover and learn and and let go and all those kind of things. yeah and sometimes where the you know I'm I'm the the basically the faithful messenger by a word, a saying, a touch, an action, but it's not about me. You know, I think the healing to me is that's the I can I can I hold that in reverence. So I I can there's an art in it, which I know that's the essence of what it is you do is the art part of it. But to me the gift in the healing is is innate. It's in the person. And that's fundamentally drives a lot of how I want to do and that what influences even the way that I support people coaching today. So it's an inside out philosophy. Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm. Wow. And I think within that, the the presence, like you said, of of who you are and the standard you hold is is the healing. The the person you are for those people that walk through your doors, just the mere presence of who you are and what you stand for is the healing for the people within your frequency, within your I want to use the word, within your field. Jim Karagiannis: Yep. Yep. Dr. Nick Harvey: Because you hold a standard for what's possible for them. And and and you vision cast that out for them too and yeah, you were gonna say. Jim Karagiannis: Yeah, it's important for them to feel like they own it. And there are times where we've all had it, where someone you'd make a recommendation, someone doesn't follow it. And then they come back and go, All right, give it to me. You told me. And I go, I I actually don't get any joy out of that. I didn't I don't want to be right. I'm just I'm not coming from the point of view of a power dynamic. I'm just gonna go, I shared an idea. the fact that you trusted me enough to come back and go, Okay, I I didn't listen to it, I'm sorry. That's that's the chiropractor being open and coachable, right? Because if we allow Our ego to drive that, right? You're basically saying, okay, well, I'll I'll only enjoy this role if I'm in the power dynamic. And you know, what I've learned, if there's anything I've learned about being a parent, is how you build trust, it's not a one-way stream, you know. Like you can't say to yourself, I remember and you and you know, our son Xavier, well, because you work together, but I remember talking to our kids and saying, look, If ever you need us, if you're a you know, are in town or in trouble or or you know, you you know you you've had you've drunk and you don't want to get into a car or something, don't get in the car, call us, you know, we'll come pick you up. And we had to be consistent with that because there were times where, you know, at two or three o'clock in the morning we a phone call. It's like, man, I don't want to get out of bed now. But I'm gonna go and pick up my kid because I told him I would. Because what happens is if you say one thing and you do another, you you erode trust. Right? And so that to me was how we did that. I c I couldn't have an expectation that I'm gonna parachute into my life's my kids' life at twenty six and and thirty and we have a a a great relationship. I had to earn it along the way. And that that to me was the pathway of establishing the connections and and honoring that. And so there were times where they would do things that I didn't like. But I fundamentally it would be like, okay, well, okay, if you're asking for my opinion, this is why my opinion, but I accept you for where you're at. And if you're gonna stumble and fall, okay, I told you I'd take care of you until you work your own stuff out. And that to me is holding the container. That's what healing is in a lot of ways. Because you know, our kids didn't muck up any less than a lot of other kids, nor did I, you know. but to me, how if I mucked up, there was a different level of feedback that I got to what my kids get. And you know, I just wanted to be person who broke that cycle. So that's how Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm. Jim Karagiannis: that changes and that influenced how I practiced as well. Dr. Nick Harvey: Hmm. And Xavier, I hope you're well. I know you'll be listening to this. Jim Karagiannis: Xavier's good, he's in Canada now. He's he's he's he's moved to Canada, he's tracking well. Yeah, I'll I'll I'll I'll say hello to him for you and we'll keep this little clip just for Xavier. to follow and listen. Dr. Nick Harvey: Beautiful. I ca I can't keep up with you guys. You guys are all over the globe at all times. Jim Karagiannis: Yeah, well, you know, i it it's funny, you when you when you've got kids you tell them that you know what, you can do anything you want, you can do whatever it has, you can follow any dream, and that's great, but then you can't then go, Yeah, but I want you to be three kilometres from home. Right, because if they're truly following your advice and and basically backing themselves and following what inspires them and and puts air under their wings, they could go anywhere. And ours are now in New York and and and Canada. And and we're in in you know, in Edinburgh, you know, four years ago, four and a half years ago we were in Melbourne, we went to Barcelona for two years and we're in Edinburgh now for two and a bit years. So when you f live a life by design and you follow and listen to those intuitions, it sometimes it's not always convenient. It takes you to places that you never thought you would but as the magic and the wonder of life when you actually listen when when life taps you on the shoulder and says, Are you prepared to do this? Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm. And Jim, just before we get into a closing, I want to hit you with a question of whether it's within chiropractic or within life itself, you know, I know you're very big on legacy and I want to touch on when you're gone, what what do you hope to leave behind as a legacy within the profession and outside of the profession? Jim Karagiannis: You know, I I had had had you asked me this role this question four years ago when we first met to Barcelona, the reason why we we left Australia was Bettina was given an opportunity to run the Barcelona College of Chiropractic. And Anybody who knows her knows how amazing how amazing she is in that kind of a role. And so when the opportunity came for us, that was the piece that was it was about legacy, right? It was like, yeah, I want legacy, legacy. And this is you know, chiropractic's been great for us, what we can do for it. And that's why we left. and within about a a year or so, it just wasn't what we thought it was gonna be, and so she resigned. And then an opportunity and so we lived in in Barcelona for a year and then opportunity came up to come to Scotland. And it was less about legacy then, you know, 'cause I realised 'cause legacy can sometimes be egoic as well. Right? And, you know, like is legacy putting your name on the side of the building? Maybe. That's one form of philanthropy. But legacy is also you know, making a young kid smile and and and sharing a dream. And so I I reali I I it shifted my time my my time, you know, my my perception of what legacy is because I thought it was more about me, but it's then it's about the people that have been touched by me and they may not necessarily remember you know what I said and Maya Angelo said it perfectly, people will often forget what you say, but they'll never forget how you made feel. And to me, it's about how if I can help someone feel more confident, more empowered, trust themselves, I love that. I love that. You know, and and it's less about I was the person who did that rather than to me it's about how did I support that person find that within themselves. So it's a that's you're kind of replacing yourself is is how I see legacy and and you know, our kids, which I'm really grateful for, are taking with them the sense of what it's like to have a happy happy family life. What it's what it what it what it has what it means to have parents who actually care about each other, kid kids who have support. And that's that's I'm fulfilled in that. And from a chiropractic perspective, you know, every so and often when I have someone who used to take care of reach out and go, Hey, I hope you're well, just want to thank you for everything you did, tha I I feel fulfilled. And I I don't know that I need a lot more. I thought I did, but it was only when I went to the other side of the world and realized that you can do things for what you think is the right reason when in actual fact it's not. You know, years ago my brother and I had this conversation where he had young kids probably about your kids' age now And he did this tour of Europe. and he took to all the cathedrals and and I go I go, Steve, you know, at the end of the day, your kids don't care about all these cathedrals in the other side of the world. They just want you to go to the park with them, have fun. And so to me that's what legacy is, it's probably a lot simpler than I thought it was a few years ago, but infinitely more fulfilling when I come from that place. So I don't know. That's that's a very vague answer. don't I don't I don't aspire to have a a building named after me at all in terms of legacy. I know that if you know, one hope, one idea, one thought, one experience enrich the life of somebody else, then I'm I'm I'm good, I'm fulfilled. That's my legacy. Dr. Nick Harvey: And I can definitely attest that you've done that a many times in my life and the first yourself and Betina, one of the most pivotal parts of my career ever. And I've had I've had some big moments, but they they were big moments working for you guys at Morland Chiropractic. So thank you both. And yeah, that that feeling and that that person and and then the person I've I've become through that process is just Couldn't imagine it. Couldn't imagine it looking back eight years ago it would have would have turned out like it did. So thank you. Thank you both. Jim Karagiannis: Pleasure, mate. That's yeah, it's it's it's been a joy and we love seeing you shine and thrive and you know, you've got kids of your own now and you you get it when you do, when you've got kids of your own, just the life and world. A mutual friend of ours just had one overnight, right? and something happens to you when you have a child. You just see the w life and world in a totally different form and Yeah, it just gives me great joy to see you thrive and shine on your terms and bringing into the world kids and and influencing them and having the impact on them that we did on ours. So it's really fulfilling. Dr. Nick Harvey: Thank you. Thank you. And just before we wrap up, Jim, for anyone listening that would just love to hear more about you, what where can they learn more about what you do outside of chiropractic with the coaching? What have you got to offer? Or if or if someone wants to work with you, how can they apply? Jim Karagiannis: Mm-hmm. Okay. Easiest way to reach out is obviously through socials. Lux Consulting Co. is our company and with that we we run consulting, coaching, we run retreats. and retreats are immersive experiences. We run, we put people in environments, different environments. We've got one, you know, we've run them traditionally in Barcelona, we've got one in Scotland in about three weeks, and running a a super yacht cruise in Croatia next year. and they're not about the ego part. of life. They're about acknowledging, you know, the the other buckets in life that are really important that give us fulfillment. And so to me, I I made a I made a decision a long time ago that it you can impact someone's life either in width or depth. And I I very intentional about working with who is the right fit with us and we want to go you know we want to focus on depth because width is is not it doesn't fulfil me anymore. So to me it's about you know how do we do that and the way we do that is curating great environments with great people that that we can collectively all benefit from. So yeah, lux consultingco dot com is is our website and me and my socials. Dr. Nick Harvey: Beautiful. And if you're thinking about working with with Dr. Jim or Bettina, do it. They they will change your life. So thank you for your time today, Dr. Jim. It's been an absolute Jim Karagiannis: Pleasure in it. Dr. Nick Harvey: pleasure. And until next time. Jim Karagiannis: Say Mary. Bye bye. Dr. Nick Harvey: Thank you for listening to the Intune podcast. If you made it this far, I appreciate you being here. And if you enjoyed this episode, I would really appreciate if you could leave us a five-star review and share this with a friend. We'll see you next time.