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Nostalgia: Masturbation (The Original DIY) · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why We Do what we Do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why We Do what we Do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: self Soothing host Abraham.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: And I'm your Caught red Handed host Shane.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the things that humans and non human animals do. And
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: we have been doing this show for over eight years now,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: which is a long time.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: It's so long. I've been at it as long as
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: the most like punk bands exist.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Fair oh man, which man, Yeah, we've been doing this
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: for quest some time. So anyway, we're happy to keep
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: doing this. I hope that you enjoy what you hear today.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, and if you
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: are here for the first time, this is what we
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: call a nostalgia episode, and that means that we are
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: going to replay a past episode that we released at
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: least five years ago, and we're going to add some
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: new research, insights and commentary on top of that discussion
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: after we have replayed the original episode in its entirety.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: So this is going to be one of those episodes
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: in which we do that thing.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, and so we're really excited. We are returning to
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: the episode on masturbation that we did it was episode
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: one fifty nine. It was released on June third, twenty twenty,
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: so not quite five years, but close enough. And I
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: do also want to just give a huge shout out
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: to Abraham for the clever title of the original episode,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: which is Masturbation the original DIY. Thank you.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, if you're joining us for the first time,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: then welcome, glad to have you here. I hope that
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: you enjoy what you hear today, and it should be
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: an interesting one. It's we don't do a lot of
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: these rerun episodes. We seem to do like between five
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: and maybe ten a year or so. I don't know
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: if we've even gotten up to ten.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: I don't think we Yeah, that's not quite.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I do think that this year we have done more
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: than than like last year already, so.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Because we have so much of a back catalog now
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: and like you're just joining us for the first time,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: like we do want to kind of highlight the work
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: that we have done, but also make sure it's updated
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: so that it's uh, you know, like it. We we
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: realize that science is not evergreen, so like we have
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: to make sure that we keep up with the current,
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: like advancing information about the topics that we're covering.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is our four hundred and twentieth publication of
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: full length episodes, Like that doesn't even count our minis.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Hell yeah bro, Yeah.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: I was just going to say, maybe it would have
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: been fun to do a nostalgia release of How Cannabis
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Gets You High on four twenty, but we didn't. We
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: did this instead, So.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: We like to puck the norm.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't predict what we're going to do, just
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: gonna You can't expect us, you can'ticipate us anyway. I
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: don't think that we were doing our holidays at the
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: time that the original one came out, So I'd like
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: to just acknowledge that on this May twenty first, that
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: it is American Red Cross Founder's Day.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Ah, yes it is. It's also End of the World
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: or Rapture Party Day.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Whoa, Okay it is I need a patch that day.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Pirates are so stoked. Sure, it is International Tea Day,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: but specifically not in Boston.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Important, yea, they like tea in Boston. It is National
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Juice Slush Day.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: It's National Memo Day.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, as National Strawberries and Cream Day.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Delisious, delicious love that it is turned Beauty Inside Out Day.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Hmm, that sounds like a serial killer thing.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds aggressive.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: It is World Day of Cultural Diversity for dialogue and development.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: That sounds fun. It is World Orienteering Day.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing that the Day of Cultural Diversity has been
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: canceled in the United States at this point.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, don't. We don't like that here, apparently.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: No, No, homogeneous is all we want. Not We actually
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: our government and the people.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: We're using the collective. We we're talking about the administration
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: right now. Yeah.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: It is Emergency Medical Services Week. Ems very important.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is also Healthy and Safe Swimming Week critically
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: important actually here in Florida.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and for what you may need emergency medical services.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if there's shocks.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: It is National foul Ball Week for.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Baseball fans baseball fans. Yes, it is National New Friends
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Old Friends, that's all it said.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, and a National Vegetarian Awareness Week.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Hey. Deal, you guys are listening to this, You're aware
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: of at least two of them.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: True too true and so true that is doubly true
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: true true.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Since we originally released this episode, we've taken a complete
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: self abstinence approach.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Yep. We don't touch ourselves anymore. As a matter of fact,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: when I when I walk around, I keep my hands
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: away from my body the entire time.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Just out all the way to the side or up
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: in the air.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I just came up over my head, so
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: just in case.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what makes sense in Florida. Gotta keep this hands up.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Yeh yeah, yeah, it's a little bit. It's a little
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: bit gnarly here. None of that's true. But for additional context,
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: this is about three months into lockdowns, Like the original
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: episode was about three months into the lockdowns for COVID nineteen,
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: and there were a lot of Black Lives Matter protests
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: going on and occurring. We still support the movement. It
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: does feel like a lifetime ago. I think this was
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: the episode that actually got us our arch nemesis, Jordan Peterson.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: I think your comment. So it's nice to return to,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: you know, to our stomping grounds and also realize that, like,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: our values haven't changed that much. Actually they've probably evolved
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: and gotten more nuanced and that more ingrained in our
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: in our our belief system. But that's kind of like
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: when we record this originally, there's a lot going on
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: at the time.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: It shouldn't have surprised us that an episode titled masturbation
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: would attract an in cell like Jordan Peterson, right right
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: to get all all worked up about it. But anyway, yeah,
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: you're right, that's appropriate context for I think some of
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: the things that we'll be discussing in this episode. But
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: we should let past Abraham and Shane or past Shane
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Braham take that on. And then after this discussion, we
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: will come back with some updates to the research. So
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: we'll see you in the past in a moment, and
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: then we'll see you back in the present in like
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: forty five minutes.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Sounds good, All right, this is.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Why we do what we do. I will be your
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: host Abraham, and.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: I'm Shane on your favorite consumable psychology podcast. Yep.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: And let's start right away with a PSA that we
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: are talking about sex stuff this entire episode, So if
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: that's something you're uncomfortable with, there's probably no part of
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: this discussion you'll really want to hear, although I think
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: it's really interesting. So if you think you can tolerate it,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: we're not necessarily going into the methods of how to
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: do this or any really explicit detail about it, but
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: we will be talking about sex things the entire time,
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: and so if that's something you're uncomfortable with, probably just
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: set this one out.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, And also too, as a caveat on top of that,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: is we are talking about a very specific area of sex.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: We're not talking about overall sexual health. We're not talking
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: about sexual wellbeing. We're not even real talking about the
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: nuances of social relationships and consent and all that stuff.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: We're going to talk about a very very specific topic
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: within the sexual health realm.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: We're kind of talking about health. Yeah, so we're talking
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: about masturbation. Yeah, of course, and all of the stuff
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: that comes along with that. A lot of history to
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: impact there. I think we'll try to answer the question
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: what is it, what are the implications of doing it,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: what is the historical orientation to it?
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm really excited about this because this is shockingly
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: one of the areas. It's in my wheelhouse professionally, not personally.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, spoiler alert, spoil alert to everybody. Most people
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: do this right, Yeah, but this is I'm really excited
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: about this because I think there's a lot of misconceptions
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: about masturbation and sexual health in general. Hopefully it'll dispel
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: some of that for everybody out there. Yeah.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Actually, so before we start talking about that, will you
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: describe a little bit. Do you want to save your
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: discussion of your work for the end or do you
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: want to start with that?
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: No, I can talk about it now. When I got
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: into behavior analysis, one of the things I started doing
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: was working in a sexual health realm. So I started
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: working with sex offenders specifically who had developmental delays or
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: some kind of developmental disability, and so kind of expanding
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: my repertoire within that. SO tend to specialize with sex
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: offenders who have disabilities, but also am the vice president
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: of the Sex Behavior Research and Practice Special Interest Group
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: through our international organizations. So I do a lot of
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: work in this realm, a lot of education work and
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: a lot of dissemination work, but mostly my practice focuses
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: on sexual health, specifically to developmental disabilities and developmental delays.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: I feel like if it comes up while we're discussing
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: this that you have some relevant piece of information or story,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: you should definitely jump in with that.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Oh I've got plenty. Yeah, I think that'd.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Be really interesting. Are you ready to get started?
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Let's do this?
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, gotta warm up the hands.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: That's kidding. Sorry, I knew it was coming. There's gonna
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: be a joke somewhere. Yeah, there's issues somewhere, all right.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: So I guess we can begin, of course, by defining
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: this concept. When we're talking about mass disturbation. This is
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: the sexual stimulation of one's own genitals. And I really
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: looked at a number of different sources trying to get
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: see where there was some divergence on that that was
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: pretty universal. That seems to be the agreed upon definition
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: is the stimulation of one's own genitals. It doesn't necessarily
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: need to lead to something like an orgasm, although it could.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: There's also a tendency to use that term to describe
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: any activity that's self stimulating in some way. So I
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: often hear people talking about mental masturbation, which is not
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: even them thinking necessarily about something sexually, but where they
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: often maybe stroke their own ego and thinking about it,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: or they will talk about something in such a way
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: that it's like they're doing it just for the pleasure
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: of doing it and for no other reason they're talking
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: about or thinking about something. So you can see the
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: theme emerging in that the realm of that topic.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think a key point to this definition
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: too is the idea it's sexual stimulation doesn't necessarily involve
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: or have to involve the hands. And I think that's
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: something like that's kind of an image that's conjured up
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: early about masturbation, and it doesn't necessarily have to do that.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: So you know, we're going to kind of make mention
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: of things like toys and different things like that, but yeah,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: this is what we're getting at here. This is kind
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: of like the core of this whole discussion is this
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: idea of sexual stimulation of one's own genitals, nice and simple.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: That's an excellent point.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: And as I mentioned at the top, we weren't planning
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: to go into a lot of description about the various techniques,
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: but in preparing for the research, I did find a
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: lot on the ways that people do this, and the
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: hands was actually only a portion of it. There are
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of ways to stimulate one's genitals that do
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: not involve your hands. As one it probably already knows
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: from experience.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: But you know, when you start looking at the nature
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: of humanity and how innovative we are, one only needs
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: to look in the sexual health realm and how innovative
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: people have gotten just to get off. So, I mean,
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: I think it's pretty interesting to see that when you
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: start kind of digging into that, like the things people
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: create in the ways that people figure it out, it's
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: really impressive. It really speaks to human ingenuity.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: What's the rule that like, if it exists, it exists
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: as a form of porn or something like that.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: I forget what the internet rule is, but yeah, there's
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: something like if it exists in the world, it exists
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: in somebody's imagination, there is porn for it. Yeah, something
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: like that.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: And I think there is something useful to look at
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: this from a sort of evolutionary perspective, and that one
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: of the reasons thinking about the why we do what
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: we do, under what conditions do we do this? This
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: is what is described for what we would describe as
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: a primary reinforcer, and what that means is that you
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: don't have to learn about this for it to be
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: rewarding as an activity. You don't have to have someone
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: like Tuchu go to a class and be like, oh,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: guess what when you have an orgism that feels good. Really,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: this is one of the things that has benefited species
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: because sexual reproduction leads to offspring, which means genetic diversity
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: and creating more replication of those genes, and so all
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: the activities that facilitate that and actually would not facilitate
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: reproduction obviously, but the sensation is the same, and so
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: seeking out that sensation and not the same but similar.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Seeking out that sensation is intrinsically rewarding. We don't have
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: to learn about it. And so one of the reasons
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: that any animal or person would do this is because
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: it shares characteristic features with the primary outcome of feeling good,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: which is selected for by evolution, because seeking out that
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: feeling will often result in greater reproduction and therefore more
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: spread of the gene.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: All right, we're gonna step away for some alone time
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: for a moment. After these ads, we'll be back, and
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: we're back, and on the topic of primary reinforcers. Just
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: to give some other examples, things like food, oxygen, sleep.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: There are things that human beings are naturally motivated for
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: that we don't really have to learn. We don't have
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: to learn the food tastes good or that it is
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: a necessity. Like once we contact it, we're good, right,
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Like sleep, the same thing oxygen being you know, like
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: cooling down when you're too hot. All that stuff is
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: something that is inherent in the species, and the majority
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: of the species will share that as part of like
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: their genetic code.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: It's biologically relevant and therefore it comes it's part of
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: the package. Those things will automatically work as things that
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: people seek out and animals too.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Yep, getting into.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: The etymology of this, I always think the etymology can
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: be kind of fun. But there were a couple of
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: different things that I found from Greek. There was messia,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: which apparently means penis, and then there was a couple
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: in Latin. So there's some dispute about where the word
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: comes from. But in Latin manus means hand and tu
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: beer means to disturb, so manus to beer would be
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: to disturb with one's hand. Or there was also a
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: manu stuprayer, which means instead to defile with one's hand,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: and you can sort of see the similarity in those terms.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: How it changed to masturbation over time, I didn't find
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: any clear timeline on, but those are some of the
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: proposed historical contexts from which that word came.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: This is not a new concept to human beings. You know,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: so maybe we started developing the language to describe it.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: But even prehistoric cave art depicted masturbation or what was
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: assumed to be.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they could have just been teenagers going into these
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: prehistoric caves and drawing on the walls and making it
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: try and look like cave art because they thought it
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: was funny.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: And we were talking about this before the episode started.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Like human beings, there are some general truths that human
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: beings that you'll see throughout history, and one of them
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: is vandalism that talks about like your mom jokes and
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. Like that just kind of is consistent
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: across human experiences. There was some vandalism, I want to say,
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: in maybe POMPEII. Wow, they found some as they were
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: cleaning up. That's great that they found that somebody was
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: making dick jokes on the walls. You know. So these
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: are universal truths essentially. You know, it's kind of funny
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: to see.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: It does seem like the available evidence seems to suggest
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: that there was no time when people weren't interested in
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: this in some capacity. Yeah, exactly, which is to say
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: that they were doing it or talking about it one
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: way or another like as far back as we have
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: evidence of people doing anything, that seems to be one
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: of the things they were doing.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty consistent. So, I mean we even see like
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: records from ancient Tumar will indicate positive attitude and belief
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: that masturbation increases potency. So you'll see that in some
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: cultures where maybe fertility statues and stuff like kind of
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: that center around all of that type of culture. You'll
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: see even back all the way back then, you'll see
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: that people talked about it being important for potency as
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: part of the culture. Yeah.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: I actually left out quite quite a few pieces of
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: the historical development of this, but it does seem like
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: if you go back far enough, there was a period
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: of time where most cultures, or many cultures at least
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: had a positive attitude toward the idea of masturbation. And
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: then there was this period of time and sort of
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: the seventeen h undred's eighteen hundreds where at least among
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: European it also looks like some of the religions of
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: the Middle East there was a reversal of that opinion.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: But the Egyptians were pretty fond of it. And actually
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: I found that the Egyptians noted in some of their
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: texts that they felt the ebb and flow of the
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: river the Nile, which was very important to their culture,
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: seemed to almost look like an orgasm to them, and
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: so there was a period of time and history where
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: they felt like the Nile was this life giving source,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: and therefore to complete the cycle of life giving pharaohs
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: were required to ejaculate into the Nile. So they would
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: their tradition was they would stand on the bank and
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: do their business into the water, and that was considered
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: a good omen and would complete the circle of facilitating
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: good crops and fertility and child bearing, that sort of thing.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: So this was a widely recognized important activity. I guess,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: if you will.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: From what I understand about King tut, maybe not so
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: much fair enough. Yeah, he didn't really have a great
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: quality of life from what I understand, So I mean,
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: maybe he didn't get to I don't know, there's probably
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: not a historical record that he actually did it.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I didn't even get an exact timeline,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: but it seems like there's maybe a few generations of
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: pharaoh's where this was the case. But it was only
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: a snippet of Egyptian history where that was considered appropriate
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: or I guess it was actually required to ensure high prosperity.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So then the seventeen hundreds roll around, right, So
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: now we've got human histories advancing, we're progressing. The seventeen
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: hundreds roll around, and then people started to believe that
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: masturbation would cause mental health issues such as depression. So
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: you started seeing this kind of shift into an idea
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: that maybe it wasn't so good.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was increasing industrialization or things that would lead
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: to industrialization. There was a lot of more systematic implementation
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: of religion at a larger scale going on at these times,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: and a lot of people had a lot of various
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: ideas about this. And so there was this pamphlet that
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: was published called The Heinous Sin of Self Pollution. As
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: far as I can tell, there wasn't an author ascribed
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: to this, but this is something that was being passed around.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: You see this all over the place when looking at
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: the history and the context of masturbation and sort of
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: human history. And this text specifically advised young male readers
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: that if they persisted in their indulgence of this evil act,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: then they would be unmanned by the time they got
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: to their manhood, they either suffer from premature ejaculation or
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: even all the way to being impotent completely. But no
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: matter whatever happened, if they engaged in masturbation, they would
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: be ridiculous to women and therefore would not be able
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: to find a sexual partner.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: So what's actually interesting about that is there are still
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: some groups that are not necessarily religious groups that subscribe
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: to that tenant. And we've mentioned it before here. We
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: don't need to mention it any specific Nazi groups out there,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: but that is actually something that they subscribe to and
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: actually cause a lot of other issues.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: So don't they usually tend to have a religious slant
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: in those groups?
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Still?
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But I mean does it matter?
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: No, I guess it doesn't. I was just saying that, like,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know how secular the Anti Masturbation Act has
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: ever been. It seems like it's always had some kind
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: of link to a religious tradition of some kind.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Well specific to this idea of being unmanned. Some of
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: these groups that do subscribe to this don't necessarily have
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: that religious bent to it. It's more so the idea
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: of that when you do it reduces your testosterone and
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: you need the testosterone to be whatever they want you
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: to be, I guess, but it actually has the opposite effect,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: like the less you masturbate, the less you testosterone you have,
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: at least for male humans.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Oh right, yeah, yeah, thank you for clarifying that. Yeah,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: women are like, oh, I don't want to masterbate, then
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: you don't want to have all this testoster.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: So going back to seventeen hundreds, now you start seeing
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: all this stuff, this propaganda about how it's problematic and
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: how it relates to your future livelihood and your well
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: being and stuff. And so they start kind of advising
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: people at an early age, and now it's become this
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: thing that you're supposed to be guilty about, are afraid of.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: And this became pretty prevalent.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: So even in philosophy you had the famed philosopher Emmanuel
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Kant who described masturbation as a violation of moral law.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: He even said, quote immorality lay in the fact that
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: a man gives up his personality when he uses himself
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: merely as a means for the gratification of an animal
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: drive end quote.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: And this was in a.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Book that he published called Metaphysics of Morals. In seventeen
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: ninety seven, and you can see in here describing that essentially,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: there is this distinction for him between what is human
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: and what is animal. Animal is bad, human is good,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: and that things that are pleasurable are bad and things
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: that are suffering are good. Seems to be the dichotomy
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: that is implied by that, which is interesting because that
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: tradition does carry over in a lot of other traditions
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: later on, especially religious and whatnot, where like food that
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: tastes good is bad, sexual gratification is bad. Doing enjoyable
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: activities is bad, and it generalizes far outside of things
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: that are sexual. But sexuality is definitely like the pinnacle
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: of bad because it's one of the most enjoyable things.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, to the degree that children were threatened, right, Like,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, you see this built into religious texts, You
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: see this built into all kinds of stuff, but here specifically,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: there's a history of children being threatened that if they
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: did masturbate, they could become insane or develop other mental disorders.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And that has to be terrifying for a young child
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: and really complicated. It's got to be some complicated feelings
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: to have towards that situation.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it comes from the place that
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: people have long understood that to really influence how people
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: feel about something, they want to start with childhood, because
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: if you can in their formative years convince children of
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: a particular idea, that'll be a lot harder to change
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: once they get older. And so I think that's part
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: of where the targeted ads of the youth of the
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds was toward, like, don't masturbate, because you're going
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: to want to and it's going to drive you crazy
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: if you do. Now, this also spread into medical practice,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: and I do want to iterate again that at this time,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: even the seventeen eighteen hundreds, medical practice was largely often
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: linked to a particular religious orientation, and so I do
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: think that that continued to spread throughout this And there
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: was the name for this idea of masturbation was called Onanism,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: and essentially this was a term that was demonizing masturbation,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: and they argue that for men specifically, and this kind
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: of goes to the orientation of the Nazis you were describing.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: The idea is that semen was critical for the vitality
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: of the body, and therefore losing it could cause all
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: kinds of deleteria's health effects like epilepsy, gonorrhea, impotence, gout,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: nervous disorders, blurred vision, headaches, rheumatism, and a whole host
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: of other things that I decided not to list them all.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I included these because they were sort of the top
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: of the list, but also the wide range and outcomes
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: that this has opposed to cause, which I'm I'm.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Looking at thinking.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: How especially some of these like half like gonerrhea, Yeah exactly,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: I'm like, like, it's the opposite.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: It's literally, I mean, and that's in going back to
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: the idea of this, and it's something that we recognize
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: as part of the human experience is that historically people
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: are driven by some agendas, and so you will have
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: people that have specific agendas that drive certain research, they
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: drive certain you know, cultural practices or whatever, or you
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: have this issue of just ignorance, right, people just don't know.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: And so I mean, I always go back to the
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: idea of when we start talking about how far our
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: science has come. In general, there's stuff today that we're learning,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: and there's stuff today that we're doing that will probably
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: one hundred, two hundred, three hundred years from now they'll
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: be like, what the hell were they doing? I mean,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: hopefully hopefully, and that's good. That's a good thing, right,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: That means that the science is progressing, And so I
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: kind of always try to frame it back to that.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: I was like, maybe that's what was going on. Maybe
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: they just didn't understand this enough and that was just
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: within the context of which they are working. But it's
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: still interesting to see that, like, hey, don't masturbate, or
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: you're gonna have chronic seizures for the rest of your life.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: He's like, that's a big jump. Well.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: I do think that at this point there were various
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: ways of arriving at something that seemed to be a truth,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: and before there was a very well established method of
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: experimentation for trying to identify what was a good way
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: of describing something in a way that was pragmatic and
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: made sense. Was essentially any kind of coh apearance that
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: one could develop around an idea could be counted as
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: truth if you could make an argument and you could
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: understand that argument, that was sufficient enough for that argument
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: to be considered true by a lot of people. Right,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: And so if you could say something like our bodies
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: produce semen talking about males at this point, male bodies
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: produce semen. Therefore, semen seems to be good for your body,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: which all the sudden, we have a stretch right there.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: But you could see like if.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Our bodies do, it must be a good thing, and
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: therefore it's important for our vitality. We need to keep
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: it inside of us like our blood. Right, so you
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: can see you start tying together these like logical arguments
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: if you will. I'm not saying they're logic clause and
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: I agree with them. I'm just saying that you can
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: make that link and someone could understand how you made
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: that link, and that was it. You don't need any
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: other evidence beyond that. That was like, right, well you
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: just talked me into it.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: Buddy.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: You might be listening to this while on the toilet,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: and this is a great time to put the phone
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: down and finish up your business and wash your hands
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: while these ads play.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: And we're back. Well, it's interesting because then you start
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: getting people that you know, they start having that discussion
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: and then they start kind of capitalizing on that.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: So we didn't have this as a bullet point in there,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: but I wanted to include this because it's right around
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: the same time of the next bullet point. Are you
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: familiar with the origin story of Kellogg's corn flakes? Oh?
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Kind of. I've actually heard it before, and I don't
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: remember the exact details, but I have actually heard the
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: origin of this, but feel free to share, that'd be great.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: So essentially, the origin is that corn flakes, the corn
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: flakes that you can go by in the store from Kellogg's,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: the company Kelloggs that makes a ton of cereal. It
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: was originally created as a treatment to stop people from masturbating.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know what to say.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: It was just one of those things. It was originally
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: created as an anti masturbatory supplement, like a food item
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: that people could consume that would stop them from masturbating. So,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: and this was in the eighteen hundreds. This was in
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: the mid eighteen hundreds, late eighteen hundreds, when people were
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: still kind of finding this to be a concern.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Probably the original formula was fairly effective at that and
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: now it has the opposite effect.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: That's it, just kidding.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: I don't have any cereal based fetishes.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Sorry. That was the only serial based fact I had
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: for this episode.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, I have one kind of which is that
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: in the eighteen thirties a man named Sylvester Graham who
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: was a Presbyterian minister, and his last name might sound
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: a little familiar, and that's because he was the inventor
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: of Graham crackers. And he was one of these extremists
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: to believe that any form of pleasure was a sin,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: that it was unhealthy, and that it was pathological. And
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: as I understand it, the original gram crackers were these bland, tasteless,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: hard to eat lumps of like oats and whatnot. And
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: again we're intended to be like, this is just nourishment.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: You're not supposed to enjoy your food. You're not supposed
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: to enjoy your life. Joy is bad, be miserable. And
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: he was actually so extreme, so he believed in moderating everything.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: But he even believed in moderating moderating which is like,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: don't get let yourself get too carried away with what
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: you consider moderation, like really scale back that desire to
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: do this thing that you think is good or feels
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: good or whatever. So he was very intense about this
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: and very much a zealot for this, like sort of
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: abstinence from all pleasurable things.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: First of all, a couple things. One the irony of
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: how delicious gram crackers are now and how much joy
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: they bring me when I eat them, especially when I
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: find a good s'more.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he is rolling in his grave every time you
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: eat a cracker.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: He's going no. So with that being said, there has
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: to be some movement or change, right. You know, there's
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: kind of an ebb and flow in human history, and
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: attitudes towards masturbation begin to change. Around the beginning of
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: the twentieth century. We start seeing people shift, We start
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: seeing people understand it a little bit more. We start
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: seeing people kind of maybe starting to take the reins
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: of their life and enjoying their life a little bit.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think about the nineteen twenties and like
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: all the stuff that was going on with the flappers
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: and like everybody dancing, and like all the good music
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: that came out of the nineteen twenties, and people are
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: starting to kind of like get out a little bit more.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: And with that, these other attitudes start coming out, right,
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: the attitudes towards sex, and the attitudes towards promiscuity and
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: pornography and all these other things to start developing within
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: this kind of these few decades around then.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Interestingly, there was also a substantial increase in the availability
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: of education, and people's IQs were increasing at a steady rate.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: At this point, you had a greater development of the
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: scientific method and experimentation. You had the rise of several
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: scientific disciplines that have since become firmly established as the
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: way of doing science, and a lot of those foundational
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: things were developed. This is a lot of the time
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Einstein was doing his work, and you know this period
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: of time, and so yes, a lot has changed. And
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: one of the most notable things gears in all of psychology.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Sigmund Freud was for all of his faults, he actually
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: did make some interesting and useful observations, and one of
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: them was that it was normal for people and even
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: children to explore masturbating and their sexuality. Obviously, Freud is
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: almost a joke at this point how much his theory
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: was centered around things like sexuality, But it did come
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: at an opportune moment where it had been so vilified
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: prior to this this time in history that it was
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: useful to have a prominent figure like that speaking out
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: in a way that was less taboo kind of I mean,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: it kind of became taboo in a different way for him,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: but he did essentially try and normalize this a little
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: bit more, and I think that there is a valiant
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: effort in that.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: I always like talking about Freud in the way that
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: you know, he's got his reputation. There are some stuff
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: that's come out of that that has been useful for
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: educating and kind of framing some behavioral interventions later too.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, psychodynamics has its own thing, but parts of
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: psychodynamics that work are behavioral and nature. And I love
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: the idea that he kind of normalized the idea about
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: people are going to naturally explore sexuality and those sensations.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: And I think that that was an important psychological breakthrough
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: for people to start looking at that and understanding that
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: as part of a childhood development and kind of a
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: human development type of thing.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and not that we're here to exonerate Freud in
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: any way. There's plenty to criticize about his theories. But
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: another thing I always liked about what Freud contributed, and
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: this is kind of not necessarily or related to masturbation,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: but he also helped normalize the idea that we develop
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of our behavior's skills, and personality traits when
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: we're young, and that we're affected by our environment, because
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: there was definitely an orientation preceding this that we come
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: biologically prepackaged with all the things that we are going
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: to be, and of course that's contrasted with the taboola
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Raza sort of orientation. But Freud was one of again
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: because of his fame in his notoriety, he did actually
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: help lead toward theories that were more i don't say
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: susceptible to, but embraced more this idea that the things
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: that we do are affected by our experiences when we're young,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: which they didn't necessarily shake out the same way that
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: he proposed or thought that they might, but he was
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: at least correct that those experiences do have an effect
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: on us.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So another thing that we want to talk about
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: within this is this person named Alfred Kinsey, right, So
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: he used a Gallup poll and which is controversial, argued
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: is biased, we kind of always have that, but it
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: indicated that many, if not most, people did actually masturbate
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: across comprehensive ranges of age, income, success, and education. So
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: basically he conducted this survey's poll and he said, hey,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: most people, if not all people, do this thing, and
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: that was probably kind of eye opening for people to
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: know that, hey, this is something that is pretty common.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not the only one that does it.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Are you familiar with the Kinsey scale? I am not
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: so Kinsey. Actually, this is not something that is well
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: loved by the LGBT community any longer. But at the
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: time that he developed it, this was pretty novel idea
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: for the most part, at least in mainstream psychology. This
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: was the scale that there was not necessarily heterosexual and homosexual,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: but there was a sort of a range between where
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: you would have like sort of a sliding scale from
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: heterosexual to homosexual, and that most people fell sort of
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: in the middle of that, not necessarily at one super
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: extreme or the other, or that you at least could
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: have that range of variability, not that people necessarily fill
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: in the middle all the time, but that you didn't
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: necessarily have people who were always clumped up against heterosexual
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: or right up against homosexual, and you could have these
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: sort of varying Now, a lot of people have criticized this,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: and this is not necessarily the place to get into that,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: but if criticized the point that that seems to again
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: pin it to that binary orientation as opposed to a
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: few in it as being more dynamic than that. But
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: at least at the time, it was a pretty revolutionary
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: idea that did help get people away from this idea
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: of it being just one of the other. But that
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: was just sort of want to speak to his credentials
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: and fame there. Yeah, there was this other guy and
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: this was actually more in the eighteen hundreds, this issh areas,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: but this is transitioning to the nineteen hundreds named h
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: hevlock Ellis, which is a wonderful name. Yeah, he was
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: one of the first people in this era actually to
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: point out that there were many famous and successful people
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: who admitted to masturbating as something that either had done
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: or did. And this was sort of just at the
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: turning point at which people were starting to think somewhat
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: differently about sexuality, and so he was sort of cavalier
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: in his publication of this, which I think was great.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would love to read that around that time,
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: because I feel like somebody would go, you mean, John
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Wilkes Booth masturbates, I'm not going to do that because
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: he was a famous actor, like he was a famous
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: actor from a famous acting family in the United States
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: during the Civil War. It's fair to meet that person
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: that was like, I won't do that. He did that
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: and he killed the president.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he may have tried to limit his list to
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: people who were mostly famous for good things. I'm not sure.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, probably likable.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it turns out that and we have listed a few.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: There are many myths about masturbation, and many that even
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: persist to this day, and some of them are more
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: relevant now than they would have been back then. So
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: should we dive into some of these.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, let's do it. So the first one I want
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: to tackle is that if you find that somebody is masturbating,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: or maybe there's the thought that masturbation means that the
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: relationship that you're in is not satisfying, and that couldn't
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: be further from the truth. It actually can be a
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: supplemental activity, just something that feels good. It's easy to
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: do on one's terms. It can be any number of things.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with a bad relationship. Really.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: I did find a study that essentially said they looked
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: at like fifteen thousand participants pretty evenly split between male
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: and female, and they found something that like for the males,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: tend to approach it likeos, kind of like a quota
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: that was like how many times they felt like they
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: needed to ejaculate, and so they would. Yeah, there was
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: how much intercourse they were having with their partner or partners,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: and then how much they wanted it to be having,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: and they just sort of filled in the gap between
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: that number with masturbation. And for females it was more
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: just complimentary. It was like, I'm having all the sex
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: I want to have, and I want to supplement that
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: with this activity if I'm remembering this city correctly, right.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: But Yeah, I found a really cool description of this
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: where they basically said, most of the time, you're not
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: going to find two people who exactly agree on how
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: much sex they want to be having, and so basically
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: masturbation allows them to be even so they sort of
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: reach the point at which they're both satisfied.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Another one here is that this idea that you'll start
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: to prefer masturbation over sex with a partner, And this
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: one is actually very complicated. The short answer is, no,
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: that's not going to happen, not if you're having a
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: satisfying relationship or it becomes complicated. Is there are people
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: who do not have fulfilling relationships, who maybe have aversive
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: experiences with sex that they're probably more likely to retreat
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: to the isolation. But it's not the masturbation that's causing
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: them to feel that they would prefer not having an
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: intimate relation with somebody else and not failure on their part,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: But it's not having been successful in contact and the
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: fulfilling relationship sexually, emotionally or otherwise, and that therefore the
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: only alternative really is masturbation, And so it's important to
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: sort of tease out that caveat there. So most of
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: the time for almost everybody, this is like ninety nine
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: percent or higher. People will prefer the connection and experience
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: of intercourse with a partner, with someone that they have
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: a relationship with as opposed to masturbation, and masturbation can
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: again sort of be that supplement.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's important as understanding like kind
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: of the origin of that challenge, right, that's really what
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: you're getting at. It's like the origin is not necessarily masturbation,
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: is the thing. It's that there's something else that's contributing.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's actually kind of a common theme to
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: some of the other caveats to this that we'll discuss.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: So another point in another myth that we want to
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: dispel is that children who do it are sexualized at
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: a young age. And you know what you found is
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: and this is complicated again, but children do it as naturally.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: They kind of do it all the time. It's not
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: going to have the same type or the same outcomes
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: as maybe adult masturbation when people become more proficient, but
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: there is that kind of exploratory nature of it, and
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: so it's part of learning growing up, learning about themselves,
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: learning about the world around them, kind of how they
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: interact with it, learning the rules and stuff like that.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: But it's actually within that it's associated with less promiscuity
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: and risky behavior. So children who do it younger tend
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: to have less risky behavior.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Later, and particularly when it's treated with a level of
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: sort of understanding and a healthy discussion. And so it's
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: like you're not there's no utility in like talking to
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: a two year old about this, Like they probably wouldn't
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: understand you if you did. But once they get to
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: an age where it's likely to start happening or they're
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: they're exploring it on their own, that's when it's a
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: time to maybe have that conversation so that they don't
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: feel confusion or shame or guilt or fear about this,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: and that that actually leads to a healthy relationship with
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: themselves to the concept more generally of sex and sexual
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: behavior where it's treated with respect and not with fear, shame, guilt,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: maybe a taboo nature, or it's like it's something that
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: we innately desire biologically, but we are afraid of it,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: so we do it in an unhealthy way because we
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: want to seek it out, but we're not sure how
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: to do that.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: It's very complex.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: But and so we're not arguing that you try and
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: sexualize children, just that when they do it naturally on
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: their own, is does not mean that they're going to
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: have unhealthy sexual behavior growing up by itself.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Another myth here is that it becomes addictive, not for
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: most people, and the conditions under which it is likely
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: to become addictive, there's actually almost always going to be
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: some other underlying condition that is like where the problem is,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: and it's not the masturbation that's addictive. It's the fact
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: that they maybe have some other mental health disorder, or
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: they have some other really problematic things going on in
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: their life where that becomes essentially the only retreat, the
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: only relief, or the o only escape, or maybe the
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: only reinforcer, the only pleasurable outlet that they have. So again,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: it's almost never the act itself. There's usually some other
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: complex situation that is making it so it looks like addiction.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Hopefully, this next dat is for lotion and tissues and
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: we're back another one too that I love this one
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: because we've talked about CORO on this before. Oh yeah,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: that's right. Yeah, So this one says it'll cause your
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: genital two or genitals I should say, to become numb
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: or to shrink, and it's just not the case. There's
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: no evidence to say that's a thing that even happens.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: There is also the idea that masturbation causes infertility. This
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: is not only not true, but it might be the opposite.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: I found a source that actually said for females it
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: increases the likelihood of pregnancy and that it can prevent
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: cervical disease and help flush out in a debris that
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: may have gotten up around the cervix and there's a
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: whole reason for this that has to do with the
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: fluids that are in there. But even for men there
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: is a similar outcome, where the idea is that this
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: flushes out low motility sperm and any debris that may
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: have gotten in the urethra for whatever reason, and so
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: there is an increased likelihood of successful pregnancy for those
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: who have frequent ejaculation or orgasm, especially if it's pretty
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: close in time.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: I like that. That's good. So if you're trying, maybe
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: that's a thing to try. More. Is masturbating more nice?
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Another one that this is one of my favorite ones.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: It causes your palms to be hairy. No, no, no, no, no, no,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: that's more like canthrop and not masturbation.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, becoming a werewolf causes your palms to be hairy.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: I'm masturbating, right. It causes acne Nope, nope, no evidence there.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: And it causes cancer, absolutely not. That's not even how
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: the biology of cancer works, like not in the realm
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: of possibilities. That's so beyond. But these are myths that
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: get perpetuated about it. So just know, none of those
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: things we said are really true. All right, So we've
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: painted the historical context. We have talked about some of
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: the myths. Let's get into sort of where psychology has
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: more or less landed on this concept the vast majority
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: of places. What you're going to see is that normal
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: masturbation behavior is considered both safe and healthy with other benefits.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: For most people, it is considered natural and it almost
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: never results in problems. As a matter of fact, it
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: can be helped to mitigate a lot of other problems
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: that might arise out of other unhealthy sexual behavior.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there are a lot of things like specific
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: biological benefits that you'll see. So when people do masturbate,
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: it causes a rush of epinephrin resulting in the feeling
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: of euphoria. So, I mean, that's a lot of why
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: people do it because it feels good. Some believe it's
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: a useful component in the comprehensive treatment of depression. So
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: there are some maybe some studies out there and some
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: links out there that it might be a useful part
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: of that, but again that's part of a treatment package.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: One source actually argued it helps to relieve stress and
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: anxiety can increase self worth. So those are some other
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: benefits that you'll see there it's very unlikely that you're
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: going to get an STD unless you're using infected items
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: or infected surfaces. But really, if you're masturbating, you're probably
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: not gonna get an STD from it.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: That actually gets to the point that we'd sort of
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: mentioned at the top of the use of things other
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: than your hands. And again, there's not that there's anything
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: intrinsically wrong with this. You just has maybe some kind
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: of surface announcement that we can provide make sure it's clean.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Because when you are rubbing anything on any part of
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: your body that gives you access to the internal parts
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: of your body. Like, we have the skin that functions
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: a really nice barrier between us and the outside world
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: where all these things want to try and get in
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: and kill us. Yeah, and so when we put things
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: in the openings of that skin, that's where we face danger.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: That's the whole thing about the COVID nineteen. There's a
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: lot initially about don'touch your eyes, your mouth, your nose,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing, because those are the holes in
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: our skin where things can get into us. And what
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: one of those other holes is in our genera And
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: so when you rub those on foreign objects, if those
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: objects aren't clean, then you can see infection. I mean
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: you would also see that if you're stuck in your
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: eyeball or your nose or your mouth or your ear.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: But that's just something to be aware of, is making
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: sure that those things are clean. But otherwise you really
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: can't get an STD from masturbating.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And to that point, when you decide, like if
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: maybe part of your masturbatory repertoire is using a toy,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: it's really important to wash it and to clean it,
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: and to wash your hands and clean your hands. I
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: mean that stuff you can get not just not even STDs,
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: but you can get infections. It can cause all kinds
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: of problems. This is a fun psa though kind of
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: a side note here. If you're going to use a toy,
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: get a toy that is cleanable, make sure you're using
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: the appropriate cleaning materials for whatever that material is, and
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: make sure that you're cleaning it regularly most of the
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: time after every use, because it can cause a lot
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: of problems if you don't.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: And you might be thinking like, yes, our bodies are
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: full of bacteria that we have a symbiotic relationship with
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: and those are actually good for us, and it's like,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: if those are on that toy, then like, how could
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: that be bad? Well, the problem is that toy will
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: eventually be like on the shelf and a drawer or something,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: and there are lots of bacteria in there that are
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: not good for you. Right, And that's why you need
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: to clean it regularly, is to avoid attracting bacteria. And then,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: as you had mentioned, using safe cleaning materials that you're
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: not putting dangerous chemicals into your body.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: And again this would be true of like your food
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: or putting things in your eyes or your nose. It's
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: it's really just being sanitary and safe about when you
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: insert things to the holes in your skin.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: Yep. So some other benefits they talk about too is
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: that it lowers blood pressure, It can facilitate falling asleep.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: It can actually help partners learn about one another and
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: learn about themselves too, what they like and what they
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: don't like, and that can actually lead to some conversations
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: about how to improve sexual health across partners. So you
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: can have those conversations about like what I like, what
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: I don't like, and make that work so that that
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: sexual relationship is healthy.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: I've actually heard that one of the things that can
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: occur in same sex couples. Is there a lot more
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: open about sharing what they like and don't like and
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: things like this. This is also true of communities where
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: there's more open sort of sexual activity for I don't
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: know if this is a derogatory term, I hope not,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: but like swingers or people who go to things like
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: group sex type situations or a non polity yeah polling arrest,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: there you go, thank you. Essentially, these are actually places
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: where people are pretty good about open communication and that
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily happen a lot of times in other intimate relationships,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: and that there is a much higher rate of sexual satisfaction.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: I've seen some studies to suggest that there's a much
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: higher rate of sexual satisfaction and same sex couples because
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: they're much more open about communication about these things and
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: saying what they like and don't like and finding out
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: what the other person likes and doesn't like, as opposed
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: to just not communicating that assuming that the other person
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: either should or will just figure it out, or being
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: afraid to tell them right, and so you end up
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: having less successful sexual intercourse in those circumstances because you
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: don't know what's happening. So if people do these active
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: these where they masturbate, they can see each other masturbate,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: they can learn more about the other person and what
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: they do enjoy and what they like about those like
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: sexual contact. Perfect there's another one here I think is
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: really useful. So all the things that we were just
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: talking about were essentially oriented to what are sort of
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: the outcomes for anybody who's engaging in masturbation of some kind.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: But there's also some very specific ones that seem to
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: be related to people identify as female versus people who
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: identify as male. And for people who identify as female,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: there's some evidence to suggest that engaging in regular masturbation
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: actually can increase their confidence and therefore their ability to
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: find enjoyment in sexual encounters with their partner.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: And for men, they actually there's some thought that it
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: might help reduce prostate cancer. There's not enough evidence, it's
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: not well supported, but that's kind of a line of
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: inquiry that's being looked at right now. And there's an
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: inverse relationship between a frequent ejaculation and death from coronary
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: heart disease, so that's kind of an interesting thing too.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, essentially what I saw here, I was really curious
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: about this prosta cancer thing, and so essentially I went
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: to try and vet that, and I found a sort
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: of saying, yes, some studies have essentially linked these things,
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: but there's really not enough evidence to say that the
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: effects there seem to be really subtle and small if
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: they exist at all, and maybe just noise in the data.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: And then the coordinary heart disease relation actually seems to
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: be related to the fact that this is technically cardiovascular workout.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Even though it's small, it's better than nothing, and so
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: the more you do it, the more it's like exercise
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: and can therefore actually improve your heart health. Again, it's
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: just a correlation that's not necessarily a cause effect relationship there,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: just that they're like, it would make sense to think
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: about it this way if that was what was going on.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: I want to see that doctor's appointment with somebody who
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: has like a clean bill of heart health. They're like,
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: what do you do? What do you do for exercise? Nothing,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: it's like, and he just goes through his line of question.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, master reel like ten times a day.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: Oh man, like you could be an Olympic runner.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: That's great. I think we just learned something about Olympic athletes.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we need to call Ussain Bolt right now.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: Just get him on as a guest, Like, so, how
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: often do you masturbate?
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah? We blind to gotcha journalism? Yep. So there's some
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: psych research out there too, and we're going to kind
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: of get into this. But do people feel a sense
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: of guilt afterwards? And that is a question that comes
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: up a lot, especially given the history it was gave
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: with people shaming people and kind of this poor culture
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: around the discussion. And they found that out of about
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: two thousand people, a little bit more than two thousand people,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: around eight percent of the group identified that yes, they
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: do feel guilty after they do it. But all those
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: people had some kind of core, morbid or underlying psychological
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: issue and that maybe contributes. You know, it could be
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: that the guilt is the symptom of other variables, maybe
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: not necessarily related to mental health. It could be just
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: learning history or upbringing or any of that stuff. And
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: what you find is it wasn't significantly related to the
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: act of masturbation itself. It was some other variable, some
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: other thing going on. Yeah, it's a lot more like you.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: I had someone who maybe already had depression, and then
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: if they masturbated, then they already were having all these
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: negative thoughts about themselves, about their self worth, about the
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: quality of themselves. They masturbate, and then they feel guilty
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: about that afterward. Well, it really wasn't that masturbation caused
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: them to feel guilty. It was that these are people
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: who were suffering with depression and that that was likely
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: going to be an outcome of anything that they did,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: especially something that felt maybe temporarily gratifying, and then immediately
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: returned to that thought of like this is you know,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I'm bad, I shouldn't be doing things, you know, whatever
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: the thought might be. I'm not going to try and
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: speak to that experience, but just that in all of
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: these cases it seemed like there were other psychological issues
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: and mental health issues that were going on, and that
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: the masturbation was not causing that sense of guilt. Right
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: all right, Jagie, I think you are in a particularly
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: good position to speak about one really important point here
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: is something that I think does not get talked about enough.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Is that there are a lot of people that are
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: would be described as belonging to like a special needs population. Right,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: These are people with various mental health diagnoses, some of
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: them are really severe that are impacted, and yet they
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: are still people and therefore they still experience the motivation
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: and the reward that comes with sexual gratification. So if
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: you could speak to.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: That, yes, So I'm going to try to refrain from
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: jumping on a huge soapbox about this because this is
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: an area that I try to advocate for quite a bit.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: But I'm going to lay this out for everybody. First
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: of all, people with special needs, even if they have
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: really severe delays, are still sexual beings. If you have autism,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: if you have a developmental disability, even cerebral palsy, that
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: natural genetic motivation for sexual stimulation is there. It doesn't
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: go away just because you have a lower IQ on
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: a test or anything like that. And so it's really
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: important to recognize, especially if you work with a population
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: that is special needs and it does require a higher
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: level of care. But this may be a thing that
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: you come across. I have spent a lot of time
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: training caregivers first that it's okay, and second how to
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: support those learners and the people that we work with
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: to contact those things, not necessarily how to exactly masturbate.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: I've got plenty of stories about how that's a really
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: tough thing to work on, but more so the importance
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: of just understanding that it's part of human nature. It's
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: part of something that is genetically in our it's in
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: our DNA. We're born with it, We're born to try
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: to seek that sexual stimulation. It feels good. We don't
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: need to learn it, no matter if you are a
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: rocket scientist or somebody who does struggle with kind of
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: daily living chores as well. So I think it's just
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: really important to recognize that and understand that when you
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: are working with special needs, because I work with plenty
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: of people that are like, oh, he doesn't understand what
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: he's doing, I mean, or you have people that just
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: can't do it well and it causes other issues. I
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: worked with a guy who would whenever he would get
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: an direction, he couldn't use his hands very well, so
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: he would grind on whatever he could grind on, and
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: when he couldn't achieve orgasm, he would get really physically
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: aggressive and he would attack mom, he would attack Dad,
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: he would attack anybody that was close. But when he
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: would achieve his aggression was far less and he had
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: limited communication, and there's all kinds of stuff that went
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: along with it. There are other variables that contributed to
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: the aggression. It wasn't just because he couldn't get off
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: that he was having an aggression, but it was important
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: to note that context because he had to learn an
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: appropriate way to do it. And that kind of story
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: happens a lot where either you have somebody that can't
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: do it safely, they can't do it well, or they
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: have some caregiver that tells them they can't do it
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: at all and that leads to a whole host of
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: other problems.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Well, that sounds like a really good point. Let's pause
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: for an ad and we're back. Yeah, And I mean,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: I certainly love to hear your opinion on this, because
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: I understand that there is the I guess there's an
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: ethical argument, if you will, about like not to have
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: a sexual relationship with a person with special needs for
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: whom you're providing services, And that's absolutely accurate, and what
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: we're not advocating to have a sexual relationship with that person,
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: right and really what the what we're advocating for of anything,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: is to help them have a healthy, safe sexual repertoire
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: and their behavior. So that because it's like they're going
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: to do these things anyway. So if you want to
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: speak to that for a minute.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that where it gets complicated is people
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: think of this as very icky just in general. People
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: don't like talking about sex, they don't like talking about masturbation,
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: they don't like people barely even use like anatomically correct language,
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: you know. And that becomes a problem with victimization too,
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: like oh, you know he touched my cookie. Well, okay,
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: well don't let him touch your cookies at lunch and
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: then you're good. And that becomes a different problem where
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: people are inaccurately reporting too, right, So there are a
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: whole host of issues with that speaking to the idea
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: of sexual health, sexual health comes down to an issue
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: of safety and well being more than anything else. Health
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: and safety is really the core of any of our
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: ethics goals and just any sort of helping profession And
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: so what I find a lot is that people that
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: misconstrued with you know, something along the lines of it
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: goes back to those myths if they learn to do this,
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: they'll never stop. It'll go back to those issues of well,
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: they can't be safe in a relationship. So I'm not
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: going to teach them. I'm not going to open that
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: can of worms. I'm not about to open that Pandora's box.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: They don't have the capacity to understand a dangerous relationship
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: or anything like that. And so teaching it is about education.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: It's about health and safety. And it's no different than
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: providing education for kids in school who are learning about
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: reproductive health, who are learning about sexual health related to hygiene.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: It's just such a wide spectrum that what we find
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: a lot is that individuals with special needs are neglected
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: in that population, in that education about condom use, about
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: healthy relationships, about what sex is. I mean, I've worked
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: with twenty thirty year olds that don't even know how
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: people get pregnant, and it's because they are neglected in
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: that sexual education realm. And then they end up having
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: sex for the first time and having children because they
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: don't know about safe sex, they don't know about STDs,
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: they don't know about any of that stuff. It's the
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: bigger problem is that for the healthcare profession, when you
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: have somebody who is competent enough to make decisions, but
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: they don't have the education to make the safe decision,
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: it becomes more of a burden on the healthcare system
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: and for that person too. It's a great point. Right now,
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: you've got children who are born to two parents who
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: are not capable of taking care of them, who end
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: up in foster care. I mean, this could be a
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: series in itself, if I'm being honest. But we have
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: an obligation to provide ethical and effective services to people,
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: and we have an obligation to disseminate good science. And
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: part of that good science is making sure that people
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: stay healthy and they stay safe, and sexual health and
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: sexual wellbeing is very clearly in that realm.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: I think that there's probably a well founded concern that
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: there is the potential for exploitation and abuse with respect
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: to how one might deal with this with children or
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: people with special needs populations, and so I think my
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: thought is that the recommendation is that you have first
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: of all, clearly defined rules about what is considered acceptable
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: and clear expectations about how to safely engage with that
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: person with that because yeat, like, we don't want people
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: who are trained therapists to be masturbating their clients, right, and.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: That should never happen. That should one hundred percent never happen.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: That is not even close to the realm of what
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: we're talking about here exactly.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's what I'm saying is like having really
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: clear rules and a really clear documentation every single time
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: and just say, like, this is an area of sensitivity
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: where there's the potential for exploitation and abuse. Therefore, we're
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: going to lay out what the guidelines are and say that, like,
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: you can help people with this particular issue within these parameters,
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: and here's how to do it. And every time you
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: do this, make sure you document exactly what happens, so
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: that if you aren't sure what to do, or if
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: something goes wrong, it's not like it's being hidden or
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: trying to be covered up or looks like there's some
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: type of abuse. There is some ability to take a
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: corrective action toward that, because we want to be able
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: to help these people in a way that prevents the
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: opportunity for any kind of exploitation or abuse, but also
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: allows them to be safe and healthy.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: To that point, when we talk about kind of working
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: within your scope and working within what you can and
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: can do, it is so critical for you if you're
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: working in a sexual health realm to consult or talk
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: to or work with somebody who is a SECT certified,
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: aas ECT certified. They can be a teacher, they can
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: be a therapist, they can be a counselor. But they
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: are somebody who is trained in sexual education and health
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: and well being counseling and all that stuff. They've gone
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: through extensive training to do this. Start there. Do not
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: take this on yourself to teach somebody else how to masturbate.
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: Don't even start dipping your toes in that realm unless
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: you have the resources and you have the support, and
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: you have the supervision and you have all the things
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: that you need to make sure that you stay safe
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: and that person you're working with stay safe because it
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: is a very vulnerable area to start dipping into.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: That's a that's a great point and I think a
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: very helpful recommendation. And so yeah, just make sure we're clear.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: We're saying that people who have these special needs, who
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: require special services, who often have therapists of various kinds
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: that are helping them, like they are people who are
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: going to engage in sexual behavior. And so make sure
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: you have the resources available to add a certified professional
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: or get the training yourself to become a certified professional
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: to help them do that in a way that's safe
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: and workable for them.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: Cool. That was actually an awesome soapbox, and I'm kind
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: of I'm glad that we were able to dive into it,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: just because I think that's something that is there are
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of people who maybe even have the orientation
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: to understanding this is important and I don't know what
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: to do, and that's perfectly valid to be in that position,
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: and so that's why we want to at least put
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: you in the right direction, which is get help from
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: someone who is certified and understand that this is not
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: something to demonize or punish or in any way create
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: treat as it being a problem. It's just something that
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: needs to be handled delicately at least, you know, I
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: guess stomatically by people who know what they're doing exactly
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: and have those safeguards in place so that there is
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: there's no potential for harm exactly. Okay, there is some
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: potential for harm in this idea of masturbation, and so
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: we'll just run through this list really quick, just to
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: make sure that we're clear and saying that like we're
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: not just saying like masturbation is the greatest thing. Everyone
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: should stop what they're doing and just drop their pants
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: and masturbate right now, right like, we want to make
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: sure that we've covered this as comprehensive as possibly, so
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: let's start, Shane, what are some potential for harm in masturbating.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: So one of the big ones that we see is
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: a failure to do so appropriately. So people don't do
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: it well, they don't do it right, they don't do
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: it sufficiently, and it can result to harm. Right, they
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: can injure themselves because they use the wrong size toy,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: they do it because they do too they do it
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: too much, and they cause actual physical injuries. So if
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: it's not done appropriately, it's not done well, then it
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: can actually result in harm to the self.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: Failure, let's learn how to do so appropriately can result
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: in some of these paraphilias, which aren't necessarily problematic, athough
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: some of them can be, especially when they rely on
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: things that are harmful or exploitative. And we'll get into
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: paraphilias in a later episode. But essentially these are I
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: guess you could call them like sexual appetites that are
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: very unique and often you can sort of think of
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: fetishes as a way of doing it, but they often
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: depend on a certain type of either visual or chemesthetic
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: or other physical experience that can be very outside of
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: what you would normally see. And again that may not
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: be problematic for some people, but it can be.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: I mentioned already that it can result in physical harm
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: to the genital so I talked about sores and maybe
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: some injuries like that, But it can also result in
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: loss of participation in other important activities. So if somebody
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: is doing it so often, it's something called behavioral excess, right,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: where somebody engages in this thing so much that it
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: does compete or get in the way of those normal
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: activities that you have to do, Like maybe I'm not
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: doing my hygiene routine because I'm spending all my time masturbating.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: And that is something that does happen for people as
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: they get into these habits, they get into these routines,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: and they do this so often that it does get in.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: The way missing social activities work. That sort of thing,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: if that was ever to be that big of a problem,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: and then failure to learn to do it in appropriate
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: ways that can result in doing it illegally, such as
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: doing it in front of people doing it unsolicited to
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: people who don't want it, doing it in two types
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: of stimulation, such as illegal types of pornography or things
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: that cause harm. That can be another place.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: You'll see too. It gets convoluted a little bit when
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: they start talking about it with other mental health issues,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: and sometimes that gets masked because maybe they're identifying masturbation
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: is the problem, and it might be there might be
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: some underlying symptom or some underlying concern that needs to
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: be treated more effectively. You know, we talked about kind
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: of isolating, We talked about unhealthy sexual relationships or avoiding
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: certain healthy sexual relationships, and so it kind of gets
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: tied in with this is the thing that people focus on. It.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: It's really not the focus of intervention a lot of times.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: And then we'd mentioned this earlier, but using any dangerous
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: chemicals or items, or using contaminated items to aid in
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: masturbation can also result in harm.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you can also develop an implicit association with
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: arousal and the features of the frequent masturbation location. So
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: if you are masturbating in a certain space all the time,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: some of the features of that environment are going to
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: kind of get looped in and paired up with what
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: you're doing.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: An example like let's say someone they only ever use
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: their computer to masturbate to pornography and they otherwise aren't
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: really on their computer, then it's like just being around
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: your computer can actually result in some amount of arousal.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: Just something to keep in mind. And then, as I
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, for most people, they're unlikely to become addicted
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: to this. And I actually don't know if anybody ever
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: becomes addicted to masturbation, although because there's enough people in
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: the world that's very possible that has happened. But what
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: there can happen is there are sexual addiction generally speaking,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: and that masturbation can be part of that addiction. And
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: so there's just something to address in terms of if
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: there is harm for people who are likely to be
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: addicted to things, or they have other sexual addictions that
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: that could just feed into that.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and I think a final note that we
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: kind of want to touch on here more than anything
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: is that we've been spending the last hour talking about masturbation.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: But it's important to note that not everybody is excited
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: or interested in masturbation, and that's perfectly Okay, just because
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: you don't like it doesn't mean there's anything wrong, doesn't
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: mean that you're abnormal, doesn't mean anything like that. It
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: is certainly a preference, and we're not talking about every
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: single person on the planet requires or is seeking masturbation,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: and so we know that that can't be true for
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: an entire population, and that's okay. So if you are
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: kind of walking away from this feeling like you're abnormal
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: or feeling out of place, please try not to because
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: the truth is is not everybody likes masturbation. Not everybody
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: likes any of that, And if you are not feeling
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: those urges, it's perfectly fine.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, some people they just don't get as much satisfaction
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: out of like sexual activities, and that's that's fine. That's
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: just where you're at, perfectly okay. Yeah, any other take
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: on point? Star up up with you think? I feel
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: like we've hit this pretty sufficiently.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think we were pretty thorough about this one.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: I think the only tea home point I would say
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: is like educate yourself, get resources from scientifically based organizations
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: or from reputable source is about any sort of sexual
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: health stuff, because it is a vast, vast body of
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: research that really tells you a lot about and gives
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: you a lot of understanding about what it means to
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: kind of have a healthy and safe sexual life. And
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: I would just say just get into that realm. Educate yourself,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: because education is far more effective than abstinence or any
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: of the other things that people kind of tote as
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: interventions for sexual behavior.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I forgot. We didn't even really mention the
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: abstinence thing as it pertains to like dealing with or
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: treating masturbation.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. The thing is, it doesn't work.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: Just so you know, there's my take on point about
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: that abstinence doesn't work.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: That's great. Yes, at least abstinence education because very almost
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: nobody actually practices.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: It really exactly.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so awesome, Well we really pounded that one out.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: Great job.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, you know what's funny, As I came into
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: this without any puns, I wasn't prepared to like drop
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: any jokes like that, and then here we are, like
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: every now and again you drop these ones.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I can't, I can't keep up with this.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: I'm actually gonna have to research before we publish this
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: and see if this qualifies as being explicit content because
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know, and you have to tag it as
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: being so otherwise it'll get flagged and oh so fun. Yeah,
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: I have to make sure. I don't know if puns
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: count is explicit content or just talking about sex generally.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: But I look, it depends on where you're at. I'm sure, okay,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: if you're in Alabama, I'm sure this is explicit.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: They don't have sex in Alabama.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: Just kidding Alabama. Sorry, No, we know you do. We
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: know you do.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: It's fine, Okay. So that was our discussion on masturbation,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: the original DIY, and unsurprisingly, there has been some interesting
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: new research about masturbation since that the publication of that discussion,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: and we think that it's worth diving into that and
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: disseminating what we have learned about this since we originally
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: published that discussion.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the research has not stopped. Okay, So
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: now I'm gonna go We're gonna go all the way
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: back to twenty twenty because that's the first, the first
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: update that we've got. So Zimmer and m Hoff in
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty, they aim to determine whether abstinence was a
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: result of psychological factors, behavioral addiction, avoidance or conflicting attitudes,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: and specifically your talking about abstinence when it came to masturbation,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: and they found that factors related to higher abstinence included
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: perceived impact of masturbation, like what they thought would happen
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: if they masturbated too much, conservativism, religion, and lower trust
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: in science. Okay, so folks that were not masturbating were
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: folks that were typically conservative religious folks that didn't believe
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: in science. If that tells you anything.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: That does it does. Returning to the fact, it says
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: a lot the again, the n CELL community education of
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: wouldn't uh huh here we are now That was twenty
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: twenty and Herbanic and colleagues in twenty twenty two they
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: were investigating and evaluating masturbation and partnered relationships and found
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: some sort of interesting results of the people that may
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: have been wondering, like, well, what about when you have
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: people who are like, in a committed relationship with someone
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: else and there's masturbating going on. So reasons for masturbating
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: included pleasure, So there was feeling randy if you will,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: or feeling horny, stress relief, and relaxation was at least
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: those were some reasons that were given.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, Now, some folks gave reasons for not masturbating that
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: included lack of interest being in a relationship. They specifically
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: cited their relationship as a reason why they wouldn't a
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: conflict with morals or values, or being against one's religion.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, And then both what men and women
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: reported higher rates of masturbation compared to the previous year activity.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: That's interesting.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, so they're just reporting more. Yeah, I
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: would be curious about like the impact of the lockdowns
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: and how much like masturbatory behavior and like solo sex
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: started to increase as people were kind of like stuck
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: at home and like exploring and kind of just discovering
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: some more stuff. I'd be super curious if there's anything
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: I couldn't find anything on that, But I would imagine
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: there's probably some some some stuff on that. Yeah.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: I would also imagine, although I kind of imagine there
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: might actually be an opposite effect in those relationship situations.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, I could see that too for sure. Yeah.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: All right, So Hwang and colleagues in twenty twenty three,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: they evaluated problematic masturbation behaviors and perceptions of what is
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: considered a problem. So they were kind of looking at like, oh,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: are do people actually recognize masturbation as a problem and
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: if they do, what are those problems? And what they
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: actually found was the researchers identified that folks who have
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: a higher perception of problematic masturbation also have unique histories
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: related to their own perceptions of sex that includes childhood,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: sexual abuse, depression, and anxiety. And what they also found
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: was that generally speaking, folks that grew up in sex
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: positive backgrounds were less likely to be associating problem or
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: they were less likely to have perceptions of problematic masturbation. Overall,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: they actually kind of found that masturbation was a good
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: thing and it was pretty healthy. So I think that's
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: kind of an important factor too, that experience and conditions
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: can also influence perceptions.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm not sure how well this is going
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: to resonate with people, but I see like an analogous
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: parallel to things like I always like to try and
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: take something and put it in a different context and
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: see if it changes the way you think about it,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: And so I'm seeing a parallel here with like eating
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: a particular type of food that you really like. Like
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: let's just say ice cream for example. We're sort of like,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: if you have this attitude like eating ice cream makes
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: you a bad person, then when you choose to eat
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: ice cream because you're just sort of feeling that snack,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: you might then think, like you might have the experience
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: of regret, like you're not actually doing any anything wrong,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: Like it's not actually probably going to kill you, unless
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: you're deathly allergic to what's in that ice cream, right
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: and assuming you probably didn't buy ice cream, that is,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: like it's fine, Like treats are fine, have treats sometimes,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: it's not a big deal. If that's all you're eating,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: then that's definitely going to be a nutritional problem. Then
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: you should seek speak to your doctor about that and
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: probably a dietitian or nutrition of some sort. But like
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: if you if you might experience a lot of like
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: the shame and guilt going into it, if you have
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: this value around ice cream is bad and eating it
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: makes me a bad person, and then you also might
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: be less likely to do it. But if you go
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: in like I like treats sometimes I want to have
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: a treat. I feel okay about having treats, then you're
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: gonna go in and you're like, hey, I had a
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: treat that was good, and then you might be you know,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: perfectly fine and happy for it. So like, I think
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: that that's sort of I see a parallel in that
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: where the values really affect sort of your overall experience
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: with it, even if the thing you're doing isn't really
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: inherently good or bad, you.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: Know, right, exactly. I think that's I think that's perfect. Yeah,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: I mean I think you could say that with anything, right, Like,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: if you have a good experience with something that's going
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: to color your view on it, if you have a
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: bad experience with something that's going to color review on it,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: learning histories or.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: Complex Yeah, you listen to a podcast, you hear ads
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: and you're like, do I want to listen to that
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: podcast again? We hope that you did want to listen
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: to it again, and that you came back from those ads,
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: because here we are the next study we had. Here,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: we have a couple more. We had Worly in colleagues.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: What a fun name, right, Maybe it's worthily, but I
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: think it's I'm gonna say it's whirly.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: And this was in twenty twenty four, so we've gotten
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: very recent now, and this is women appear more likely
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: to use masturbation as a reliable coping strategy and stress
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: reliever than previously hypothesized. There were no distinctions between the
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: mode of stimulation specifically, like how they chose to about
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: go about doing that. But it's been difficult to measure
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: this for women because the stigma I think was significantly
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: worse and more profoundly pronounced for women than it was
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: for men. Yeah, because you know, sexism is a thing
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: that just is out there doing its thing.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, that's true.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: Like we found in so many instances, like women and
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: men are just not that different on this issue. I
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: mean at least not in the sense that like they
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: use it and derive from it similar types of pleasure
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: and like would do it in a sort of similar
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: reason in format. Their overall mode will obviously look at
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: a little bit different because they have different bodies, But
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: you know, that's just a thing that could happen.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. As a general rule, what we have found in
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: the sexuality research is that research about anybody other than
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: men is at least ten years behind when they start
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: looking at arousal research. There was about ten years of
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: like men's arousal studies before they ever consider looking at
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: female genitalia. So that's just something to consider, is like
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: as we start looking at that. Yeah, way behind on that.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: A great book on that, not on that explicitly, but
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: and that maybe I think I actually recommended this in
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: one of our episodes, but Bonk by Mary Roach. Yeah,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: she does explore this the difference or the discrepancy I
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: think in research and questions asked and assumptions made for
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: a long time.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And the last study that we're going to
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: talk about today is from Verad and Haruti in twenty
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: twenty four, and what they did was they started to
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: value the use of current technologies and specifically looking at
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: technologies as part of individualized treatments for sexual dysfunction, disorders
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: or dysfunctions or unrelated disabilities. So basically looking at using
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: things like sex toys and pornography and adaptive equipment to
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: improve the sex life of folks that have disorders, dysfunctions,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: or disabilities, and they can't use these types of technologies
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: in traditional ways. So they found it to be pretty effective,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: which was really cool too.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, obviously we've described, like human beings,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: we like to have sex, and so we do sexual
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: stimulation things. I think the amount of shame and stigma
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: that has been promoted around that is actually kind of
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: it is to our detriment overall as a species.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: You know, we're trying to fight biology, and biology is
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: probably going to win, right, So, I don't know. I
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: feel like it's just it's counter productive and it's one
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: of those things where it's like why even pick that
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: hill to die on? Like who cares that much? Right
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: about this thing that someone's doing. It is like, particularly
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: we're talking about masturbation. I'm like, nobody else is involved here,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: Like right, leave people alone. Right, it's fine, Let it
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: be so all right, that's what we have on updates
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: for masturbation. I think anything else you'd like to add
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: or that I forgot before we head to our recommendations,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: hail yourself fair enough, all right, before we jump into
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: our recommendations, because that's like a fun thing. We save
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: that for the end. We get to recommend some stuff,
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: and that's great. I'm going to start by giving credit
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: where credit is due, which is to say that if
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: you would like to support us. If you have something
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: that you would like to say about Masturbation, you can
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: reach us by emailing us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: dot com, and we're also on the social media platforms.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: But I actually started that sentence with if you'd like
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: to support us, and that's like we like listener mail,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: But that's not really a strategy for support. So strategy
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: would be to join us on Patreon, and if you
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: do that, you get behind the scenes content, add free content,
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: bonus stuff, early episodes, all that kind of thing, and
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: I will read your name as a list of people
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: who help make this show a thing. So thank you
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: so much to the generosity and the ongoing kindness of
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: our patrons, which include Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian Ashley, and Kiara. Thank you all
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: so much.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, we love you with all of our hearts, every
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: one of them.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes we do. Thank you so much to my
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: team writing in fact checking from Shane and myself. Thank
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: you so much for putting together the notes for this
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: one and for recording with me today.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: Hey anytime, this was fun.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you to our social media coordinator who is Emma Wilson.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: And the person who has to stitch all this audio
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: together and make it sound good is Justin and he
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: just does the best job. So we appreciate you Justin
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: best ever. In addition, if you would like to, I
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: already mentioned the support thing, except I did not say that,
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: you can leave us a rating and a review, like
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: and subscribe or tell a friend. You can also pick
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: up some merch from our merch store now, like and subscribing.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: Those are free. You can do those. Telling a friend
• 1:16:52
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• 1:16:54
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• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: that means that you'll always get to a new episode.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: It's which is like awesome and really good.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: I like it all right.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you would like to add
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: or that I forgot before we transition to our recommendations.
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: Now, let's go ahead and get into it recommendations.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: I'm recommending a board game. It's actually been around for
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: a while, but it just changed hands to a new publisher.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: The board game is called Tokaidom. I think I've recommended
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: this before, per chance. As a matter of fact, I'm
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: almost positive I have possibly more than once, so I
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: really like this game. The general theme of the game
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: is kind of unique. It's basically whoever is, So you're
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: you're traveling from left to right across the board and
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: you can never go backward, and to determine whose turn
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: it is, it's whoever's furthest back on the board, and
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: then you can move ahead as many spaces as you want.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: But again, the next time it's your turn is when
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: you're behind everybody else, So you kind of want to
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: try and stop at every space as if you can.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: And all the spaces have like different benefits that you
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: could potentially gain, depending but like almost all of them
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: have a cost, so like most of them you'll be
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: stopping and spending some coins. Some of them you get
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: coins back, and those are sort of how a lot
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: of it go, and or some of them are just points,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: but you're just sort of choosing like how to stop
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: on the board. Beautiful game, really sort of a zen feeling,
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: pretty easy to play. You can sit down and play
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: with a group of people. I think it goes up
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: to five or six and do it in like forty
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: five minutes or less, particularly if you know the game,
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: then maybe even thirty minutes or less. It's got a
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: couple of good expansions. But the new publisher that just
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: picked it up is one that I really like called
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: stone Meyer Games, and in it they created a solitaire
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: version of the game, so you can play by yourself
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: if you want to, and that basically there's some card
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: system where it will sort of choose opponents actions for you.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: You sort of play against the game itself if you
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: want to. It looks like they also upgraded a lot
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: of the components, which is really nice. But Kaido is
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: just a really lovely game. I really enjoy it, and
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: I do think that it's one that most people who
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: want really into gaming would be able to pick up.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: And it probably feel like a bit more on the
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: complex end than you might be used to, but not
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: by much. Like it's really a pretty straightforward game. As
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: I said, it's like, okay, move forward as many spaces
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: as you want. Whoever's in the back goes next, and
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: then it's just knowing what those spaces do, which, as
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: I said, most of them are spending or gaining points
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: or coins. Yeah, for sure, that's pretty much it. It's
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: a cool game, really pretty.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: I like that that sounds fun. I looked it up
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: and the word Takaido means Eastern Sea Highway apparently.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I believe the theme is it's like the road
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: to Edo, and it's supposed to take place in some
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: historical context. I've not looked into it as much as
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: I probably should have.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: No, it's cool. It's cool though, it's interesting. I'm super stoked.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: I'll have to check it out for sure. Cool. I'm
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: recommending a record. So there is a really great band.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: Their entire discography is really good. The band is called
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: pet Symmetry. Symmetry is in like, you know, the symmetry
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: of you know, like shapes and stuff like that. Sure,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: and they put out a new record this year called
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: Big Symmetry, which is a lot of fun. And the
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: album every song on it, there are twelve songs, and
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: every song starts with the word big. So there's big Symmetry,
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: Big Engagement, big Wish, Big Island, Big Diamonds, so on
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: and so forth. So Wow. It's the singer and guitar
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: player who is behind into it. Over it if you
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: are familiar with their work, And he plays bass in
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: this and he sings and it's just a lot of fun.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: The first song is about like just having a very
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: normal engagement and proposal to like a partner and just
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: being like really in love with that person. It's just
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: really like wholesome and fun, nice. But it's a really
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: great listen. It's if you like, kind of poppier, like
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: a little bit like I would say, like midwestern emo.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: It's got a little bit of that vibe where it's
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: like a little bit nudlee and like the song structures
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 2: are cool, love that it's worth giving you listen. They're
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: a lot of fun awesome.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: All right, Well that does sound like fun. Thank you
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: for the recommendation. So that's the board game Takaido spelled
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: tk aid O, and then Pet Symmetry and the album
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: Big Symmetry. Yes, exactly perfect. All right, Well those are
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: like fun. Well that one sounds like fun. I know
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: Takaido's fun. But anyway, I think that's what we have
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: to say about masturbation and unrelatedly about board games and
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: an album, or maybe they'd like to be related. I
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: don't know. Take it as you will. I think I
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: mentioned everything else. So is there anything else that you'd
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: like to add or that I forgot? Before we wrap
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: up today?
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: Uh no, I think that covers it all right.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you to my team, Thank you to our patrons.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for listening. This is Abraham
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: and this is Shane. We're out.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: So yeah, you've been listening to Why We Do What
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: We Do.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 3: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: day