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Parasocial Relationships: That Podcaster is Your Friend! · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: should know a little close to home edition.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah right. And in two ways. One is that as
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: podcasters we are on one end of the parasocial relationship
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: relationship correct, yeah. And the other is like I have these.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you do or not, but I
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: have parasocial relationships of my own with podcasts.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I don't have any because I'm saying right, I'm totally kidding.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: I don't think I have any. No, I don't have any.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I think what it is has nothing to do with sanity,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: my imagination. It's just not that vivid. Oh okay, you
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? Because I think for this to set,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: you have to be able to imagine yourself, like in
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: the room with the people you're listening to, for example,
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: or what you would do after they stopped filming the
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: TV show or something like.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: That, Like any you're big into comedy, any of your
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: big comedian people that you love, you know, never think,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: like God, we would be friends.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: No, I really don't. I don't I feel like deficient
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: because of it. But I genuinely do not have any
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: parasocial relationship that I can bring to mind, and I
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: don't remember ever having that. I think I just assumed
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: that they wouldn't like me, rather than they would like me,
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: which makes it much harder to have a parasocial relationship
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: with somebody you just assume you wouldn't get along with
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: very well.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Well, then by some estimates, you're part of the forty
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: nine percent of people of Americans, that is that do
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: not have parasocial relationships. And if you're yelling at us
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: right now because we haven't defined it yet, just a
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: parasocial relationship is a It's like when you listen to
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: a podcast and you think, I know those guys, they're
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: like my friends. We would be so we would be
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: such good friends. In real life, it's a one sided
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: relationship between a consumer of a thing, a fan of
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: a thing, and a public figure.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. In one of those papers you sent me, I
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: saw it described rather aptly as a one sided intimacy
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: at a distance.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: And in our go go be normal as much as
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: you can type society, that sounds a little like off base,
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: a little weird, a little out there to some people,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I should say, to others, you're it's like, well, yeah,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: of course this is normal life. But we should say like,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It can go wrong, yeah,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: as we'll see, but at its base, having a parasocial
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: relationship does not make you a loser, a loner, social misfit,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: a weirdo. It actually makes you slightly healthier emotionally intellectually
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: in my opinion.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And as we'll talk about, studies bear that out
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: that it's you know, I think they put it generally
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: about three to five percent of the time, it can
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: go south, and we'll talk about that kind of stuff,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: when it becomes obsessive and stuff like that. Dam But yeah,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: for the other ninety five to ninety eight percent, to people,
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: it actually provides quite a benefit because it makes someone,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: It makes someone feel good, and it makes people laugh
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of times, and I feel like comedy a
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: lot of times is what you associate more. I'm sure
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: you can have parasocial relationships with like Peter Jennings or
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: something sure or Dan Rather, I'm sure that.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Happens hard to those we'll see.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: You generally think of it in terms of like either
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: a podcast or a TV show when you when you
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: would sit around and you would think about a which
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: friend am I or which sex and the city character,
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: you're such a Miranda, Like, that's the kind of thing
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: that we're talking about here, when people identified so much
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: that it's like a real relationship.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, And I want to say I am in that
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: very unusual and unique position, as are you and as
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: our pastors. Right, I totally am a Miranda. Actually, no,
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: what's the other one's name? Who is married to Kyle McLaughlin.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: I feel like I identify more with her.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Charlotte, Charlotte.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a total Charlotte. What I was going to say, though,
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: is I'm in the unique position of being on the
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: opposite side of a parasocial relationship. That's a very rare
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: place to be. And I can tell you that I
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: do enjoy hearing about that, Like when we're at live
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: shows and people tell us like where they think of
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: us as like their friends or whatever. I always love
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: to hear that kind of thing. Yeah, me too. Yeah,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: so I don't want to I don't engage with them myself,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: but when they are thrust upon me, I'm like, oh, yeah,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we feel the same way generally, and most
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: times when we meet listeners who are awesome like that,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: if we did know each other, there's a good chance
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: we might be friends.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's another thing too, is I think
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: that's kind of like that that weirdo view of it,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Like the irony of it is they're so far off
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: base that like, if they ever actually did meet the
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: person in real life, they would be horribly crushed and
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: maybe even mocked. I mean, at least from our experience,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: most people who do come up and tell us that
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: they think of us as friends do seem like people
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: we would probably hang out with in real life.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Totally. There's also an I'll talk about this a little bit,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: I guess later, But I'm in a situation where a
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: lot of the podcasts that I consume are comedy podcasts
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: where I do kind of know the person. Oh okay,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: but that's a quasi parasocial relationship because I find myself
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: thinking I'm better friends with them than I am, when
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: in fact they are just industry colleagues that are loose pals. Perhaps,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: but I think, like, oh yeah, me and Scott Ackermann
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: are like great friends because we have so much in common.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he does not think that.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: And Scott's a great guy, super nice. He's always been
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: very nice. I'll be on the shows occasionally. We both
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: worked with him a little bit, but we're not great friends,
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: even though I feel like we are because I listen
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: to so much of his stuff.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'm glad you let me teck somebody. I was
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: going to ask you who you have parasocial relationships with,
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: but I feel like quasi para social relationship is very niche.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, probably so, So let's.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Let's begin at the beginning. These things haven't been around forever,
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: mostly because they're a product of media communications. They would
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: not exist otherwise because without media, you would actually be
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: interacting with this person faced. And that's the big rub
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: of the whole thing is that other person is on
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: the other side of a screen, they're in your headphones.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: They're not there physically, but the way that they present
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: themselves to you tricks us into becoming friends with them
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: or having an affinity for them, just as you would
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: if you met them in real life. And the whole
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: thing is traced back to a couple of sociologists named
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Donald Horton and Richard Wall who back in the fifties
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: started noticing that people would actually talk back to their
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: TV and that they as sociologists, they said, this is interesting,
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: that's kind of unusual.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: And probably new people don't TV.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: And I think I'm sure it existed before in radio.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: But as we'll see, media has added to itself, added
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: to itself, added to itself over the generations, over the
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: last half century or so to make it more likely
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: that you're going to have a parasocial relationship with somebody
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: in me, and a deeper one too. But the whole
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: thing started with TV and people shouting at it, and
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: what they coined was a term called parasocial interactions.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's I think TV also was all of
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: a sudden you had a couple of other ingredients to
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: the recipe that could spawn a parasocial relationship, which is
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: repeated consistent faces that you're seeing. It's not like, you know,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: go into a movie, which you could do before the
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: you know, nineteen fifty six, that person being in your house,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: in your living room every week or even every night
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: was a different thing. And they were talking to you,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: they were looking at your face, and there were new
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: kinds of media personalities that they hadn't seen before, which
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: is like game show host, talk show host, newscasters, people
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: looking into the camera and talking to you the home audience.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: And that changed things, and they were fascinated by what
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: they called this relationship between what they dubbed persone who
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: were or you know, the Dan rathers or whatever. I
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: don't know why Dan rather so on the tip of
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: my brain. What's even doing these days? He's writing and stuff, right.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't know. It's been a while. I'n't
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: heard from it in a while. He hasn't called me back.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: I think he's I think he's pretty active on social
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: media and stuff. Anyway, it was a new thing where
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: there were people in your room, these persona talking to
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: your family, and it was there was a lot of
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: small talk that had never been around before, like on
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: the news when you you know how newscasters are they
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: We've talked about it in the weather Person episode. The
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: change to like the more familiar banter and small talk
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: and you know, let's talk about our lives a little bit.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: Even all of a sudden, people are being let in.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, and that's a product of the whole thing, Like
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: that's purposeful and what the whole thing creates is the
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: illusion of intimacy. And that's I disagree with by the way,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: that it's an illusion.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean that's what and Wall call that.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's a type of intimacy.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, so what would you call it?
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Intimacy? One way intimacy?
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I guess. Okay, yeah, I'll agree with you on that
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: for sure. I think these guys were just like, what
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: the heck is going on? So, yeah, you're kind they weren't. Yeah,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: so we'll just call it this type of intimacy or
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: one sided intimacy. And like I was saying, like they
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: purposely cultivated this as they started, not Wall and Horton,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: but TV producers found out very quickly that like people
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: would write letters to you know, their favorite newscaster or
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: their favorite soap opera character or something like that that
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: was kind of new again. People would yell at the radio,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: or they would listen to a specific news announcer on
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: the radio or something like that that happened before. But
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: that whole thing of being able to look at you,
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: of being able to talk to you directly, seemingly again,
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: it trigger something in us that radio could never do.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And like you said, I think I cut you off.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: You were talking about the fact that it wasn't an accident.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: They worked on this. They were told to look directly
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: into the camera lens, and they were told to make
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: small talk and have friendly banter between each other, and
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: to have like a friendly tone. It was all engineered
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: to get people to watch you more. It wasn't engineered
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: so parasocial relationships would form, but that was a byproduct
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: of them trying to get their game show host or
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: their newscaster to connect with an audience, right.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: So some other things they would do is characters would
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: be boiled down into kind of thumbnail sketches of a person.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: So you have like Joey, who's kind of like the
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: ditzy one, or Gracie Allen was the original I think
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: kind of dits on TV. And when she entered the
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: room or when Joey entered a scene, you knew something
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: like hilarious was gonna happen because they were just so
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: ditzy sense you know Joey like you don't know matt
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: LeBlanc at all. You know Joey the character that Matt
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: LeBlanc is playing. Uh, you doing exactly. You know, he's
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: probably going to say something like that, he's going to
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: like go after some girl or something like that. You
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: can predict his actions, which means that you have some
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: sort of relationship with them, and that you recognize his
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: personality and you accept it and you can predict it,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: and that in and of itself is a level of intimacy.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you don't even necessarily have to identify with
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: that particular character. I think in the case of something
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: like friends or Sex in the City, a lot of
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: people just said, Hey, this is like my group of friends,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: and Joey is like my friend Josh and Chandler is
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: like my other friend, and that kind of thing.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: I got to wait, whom I'm like?
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Who I was talking about a different question? Oh okay, I said,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: you're like Joey, but you're not like any of the friends.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: No, No, I'm not.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe a bit of a bit of a Rachel.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know, kind of happy about that. We're going
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: with friends and Sex and the City for the rest
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: of the episode.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Huh, I guess so. Another thing that we did on
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: our own very show was that they did back then
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: to engineer this kind of connection was call in shows,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: reading fan mail on the air, stuff like that, interacting
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: with the audience, which is obviously ramped up in the
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: day of social media, which we'll get to because that's
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: a whole different bollowax these days.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, And one of the reasons that Horton and Wall
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: created a new term for what the person is who
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: the person is having a parasoxial relationship with persona or
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: a persona is because that's not again, it's not a
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: real person, even if they're not playing a character. And
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: you know, the newscaster is playing himself the newscaster. He's
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: not talking about like the horrible fight he and his
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: wife had the day before. He didn't get much sleep,
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: and he's not really feeling good. He's never going to
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: bring that up. All he's ever gonna show you is
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: at least a neutral mood, if not a positive mood.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: And so after seeing that time and time and time again,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: you develop an idealized vision of this person, this persona
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: that can't possibly hold up in reality, and in that sense,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: that makes the parasocial relationship that much more seductive, because
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: what that persona can offer you is an idealized friend.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Dave helps us out with this, and he said that
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: the cheery game show host is never has a bad
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: day in snaps at you, and I would caveat that
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: with except Alex Trebek, but for the most part, all
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: the other ones wouldn't. They're always pleasant, they're always like
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: nice to be around, and they're always making you feel
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: good about yourself. That's one of the reasons parasocial relationships
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: can be so strong.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Should we take a break, Yes, all right, we'll be
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: right back. All right, So let's talk about this. We
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: got the setup with Horton and Wall and then since then,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: over the decades, things have been pretty interesting as we've
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: moved toward social media, which again we'll get to. But
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: the reason that we form bonds, it sounds like it
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: might be a little weird, even though we explained that
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: it's quite natural, but it's evolutionary in nature. We've talked
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: before plenty about the facts that human beings are hardwired
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: to be social with one another because it helps in
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: their survival. The ability to read someone's tone or read
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: someone's face was very valuable in the age of tuk
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: tuk when they would approach like a new people or
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: something like a new persona and also the fact that
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: it's madeok Took feel good to have a friend. So
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: we are hardwired to be social with one and another,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: to pick up on social cues and to have wins.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: And we do that. We pick up on the social
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: cues largely from facial expressions and tone of voice, both
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: of which come through loud and clear in TV close ups.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Right, exactly for sure?
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: So what's happening? And again, I don't think this was
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: originally I mean, no one invented TV to do this
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: to people. It was like a surprise. But once people
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: figured out what was going on, they exploited it as
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: quickly as they could. But TV accidentally tricks you into
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: thinking you're interacting with a really great person and that
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: they're interacting with you and they kind of like you,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: so you like them back.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Right, Because your lizard brain, your evolutionary brain, doesn't know
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: the difference between Dan rather talking to your face on
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: a television and Dan rather really being in front of
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: you in a Starbucks. You don't really know the difference.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: All you know is you know going back to your brain,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: goes back to Tiktook's days, and you see a kind
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: face looking you in the eyeball telling you something interesting
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: or funny or what have you.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: Right exactly, So, I, like you said, I'm in the
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: forty nine percent that like just don't necessarily feel this way.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: And the reason why not everyone does this and that
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: other people do it strong more strongly than others supposedly
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: has to do with your natural levels of empathy. That
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: the more you're able to take other people's perspectives onto
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: your own and just kind of imagine yourself in their
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: shoes or understand their struggles or just acknowledging the fact
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: that they probably are struggling in some way, or you're
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: more likely to vibe on somebody in real life and
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: on TV as well, or in social media, as we'll see.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: I think you can be highly empathetic, though I can be.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: It's just two people that you know, know and love,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: So maybe that's a difference.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: I know. I mean I can't be to strangers too,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: for sure. I just don't know. There's there's some.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Well that's true. I didn't mean it like that. I
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: just meant more, I see where you I see the
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: delineation in your mind.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: But that's the thing I'm not aware of it. It
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: feels like there's a short circuit between you know, what
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: I'm capable of, like in with people in real life
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: and people not in real life. Like there's a disconnect
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: between those two. And I'm not sure what it is
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: or where it comes from. But I don't know, because
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: I do. I like to think I'm fairly empathetic too.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I thought you were saying you weren't,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: so you are.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: I mean also, like, there's not a lot of like
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: podcasts you listen to every day and stuff, is there? No?
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: But I mean, like I watch a lot of TV too,
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: and I don't have like a parrot social relationship with
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Jason Vorhees or anything.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I don't a boy that reminds me. I just saw
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: a very funny old Kamil Najianni bit about uh, well,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: you can look it up about Jason and Freddy. It's
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: probably not something I want to say in the air, Okay,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: but it's very funny.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: I want to know. Well, just google it, okay.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I think I can summarize it best by saying
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: that Freddie in the movie Freddy Versus Jason was racist
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: at one point in one of his little Freddie lines
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: because he talked about a person of color. Uh, and
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: A made sort of a Freddy quip about it, and
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: people he was like in people in the audience coroned.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: He's like, they really, you know, it's okay that you're
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: murdering children, but like when you made a racist jab, like,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: that's when we're not on team Freddie anymore. It's pretty funny. Anyway,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: where was that going with that? Though?
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: What are you talking about? Yeah, we were moving on
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: that that, Like.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: Oh, oh, I know what I was going to say
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: is that I don't really have these with TV people.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Podcasting specific is where I get my parasocial relationship.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm yeah, I like, I guess I don't know,
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: like I would say that, Like I listened to it
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of Terry Grid and I've never been like
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Terry and I would be great friends, you know. I
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: like her. I think she's amazing. I think she's one
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: of the best interviewers walking around right now. But sure, again,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: they're just that like she is on the radio, she's
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: in Philadelphia, Like I've never met her, I'll never meet
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: her probably, like I've said outside her house, like those
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: those right, and she would not come to the door. Yeah,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: those qualifications like mean something to me subliminally that keep
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: me from having a parasocial relationship. I think this. We're
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: gonna hammer this out one way or another by the
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: end of this episode. So uh.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: There's something called the compensation theory, and that is the
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: idea that people who get in parasocial or who are
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: more inclined to get in a parasocial relationship, are compensating
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: for a lack of real relationships in their life. The
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: like you sort of mentioned earlier, the trope of the
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: lonely person who's socially awkward and doesn't have these relationships
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: in real life, so they dream a relationship with Conan
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: O'Brien or whatever, And studies don't bear this out. Studies
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: have shown that that's not the case. It's just not true.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: And in fact, they've shown the opposite, that people who
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: are more extroverted and more likely to score higher on
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: test for interpersonal skills are more likely to form these relationships,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: which it tracks for me. It makes sense if you're
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: more likely to be that way in a real relationship
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: and in real life, then it seems like you would
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: be more likely to do that parasocially.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Yes, but it is controversial, Like, there are definitely two
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: schools of thought. One is that this is inherently a
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: dangerous thing to do socially for yourself and for whoever
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: the object of your parasocial relationship is. And then other
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: people like, no, that's just you guys are there's no
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: data to back this up, right, But that whole compensation theory,
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: there's a model that attempts to explain it called the
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: addiction absorption model, and it basically says that it says
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: that people who seek out parasocial relationships essentially are get
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: like you were saying, like they're awkward, so they have
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: to go find it somewhere else because there's an inherent
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: human drive to make connections, so they're just making them
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: with people that'll never meet in real life that they
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: kind of idolize, and by doing that, they absorb the
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: person's life. They absorb information about the person's life right
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: and effectively get addicted to it because it feels good
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: to be close to that person, and that, like any addiction,
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: they develop a tolerance to a certain level of absorption,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: so they start getting further and further and deeper and
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: deeper along into this addiction of their favorite person and
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: one day find themselves standing outside of Terry Gross's house
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: hopefully she'll come to the door. That's like, you will
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: eventually reach that level if you follow this path long enough,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: and that anybody, anyone who's engaged in a or social
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: relationship is at risk of becoming that person that's stalking
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Terry Gross. I'm sorry, Tory Gross. I know this is
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: just working, So I'm going with it. And that is
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: one camp. They've got the models, but they don't have
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: data that says that, and in fact, yeah, the models
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: are themselves are super questionable, the measures are super questionable,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: and it seems like that's just a really overstating, you know,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: the potential risks and dangers of this that for most people,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: like you said, it's healthy.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: I think so because if you're looking at a if
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: these numbers are accurate, and you're looking at like a
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: three to five percent rate of someone who takes things
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: too far, where Terry Gross is like listening to God,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: what's her show, I'm totally blanking fresh air. Fresh air
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: is the gateway drug. And then that's not enough and
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: then you need you go out and get some fresh
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: air in front of her house. Things can get troubling.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: That's the same thing as saying, like, anybody who ever
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: takes a sip of alcohol is at risk for becoming
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: an alcoholic. And exactly, like, technically these things are true,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: because if you never took that sip of alcohol, you
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be an alcoholic. But it's just I think it's
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: a bit much.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Right, Like anyone who smokes a rock of crack is
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: going to get addicted to.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Right, right, Yeah, exactly, So just.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: A little more on that model, there's a kind of
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: like the person at the center of the Yeah it's
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: a dangerous thing camp seemingly is a psychologist named Linn McCutchen.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this was interesting.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Lin McCutchen in two thousand and two came up with
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: the Celebrity Attitude Scale. And that's not a measure of
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: like which real housewife is more caty than the others,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: that's right. Instead, it measures your attitude towards celebrities if
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: you're engaged in parasocial relationships. And lin McCutchen broke it
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: out into basically three levels. And again they believe that
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: this is like a stage, like these are stages. This
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: isn't like this per would never get to this stage,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: like if you started the first win, you're at risk
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: of ending up in the third. Yeah.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: And this was, by the way, like twenty eight years ago,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: twenty one years ago, so it wasn't a couple of
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: years ago, which it sounds like it might be. But
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: the three levels are the entertainment social level, which mccutcheen says,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: it's like almost everybody, and that's what we've been talking about.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: When you just it's all good and it's all fun
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: and there's no weirdness going on. Then you get to
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: intense personal and that's when you start to internalize the
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: values of that person and consider them a soul mate.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Those to me feel like disparate things, Like.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a pretty wide window.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Because when I first read it that, I was like, yeah,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: internalizing the values of like someone doing good things, it's
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: like that's great, But putting that in the same categories
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: considering their soulmate is a big stretch for me. Agreed, Okay.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: And then the final level borderline pathological. That's the three
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: to five percent, and that's when it's what they call
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: celebrity worship.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: That's the one. Yeah, that's the one where well, no Okay,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: so borderline pathological is like the worst of it. But
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: I think they're all celebrity worship supposedly, and that's a
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: really big problem. Yes, And that's problematic because some of
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: the people who are like, this is not this isn't
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: like an actual like you guys, there's no data suggesting
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: that this is actually dangerous, they're saying in one of
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: the big problems is, you guys are interchanging the term
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: fan with the term celebrity worshiper, right, and yet you've
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: never actually studied fans, Like they've never applied the celebrity
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: attitude scale to groups of fans. They just applied it
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: to random co eds who wanted like extra credit for
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: their psychology class. So when when a media psychologist named
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Gail Stever or Stever, Gail and Lynn, it's like a
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: it's pat episode up in here. So when when Gail
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Stever applied the celebrity attitude scale to a group of
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: fans like people who go to convention like.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: The bay Hive or the swift Swifties.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or who interact with other fans, people who've written
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: letters to a celebrity or something like that, like fans
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: like above average fans. Yeah, they found that most of
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: them didn't even rise to the criteria for that first
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: entertainment social level, right, and that there is a definite
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: distinction between being a fan and being a celebrity worshiper.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And anything could tell you that, but you can thank
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Gail Stever for proving it.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're interrogating all these swifties and they're like, dude,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: you're being weird. I just think she's awesome and like
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: her music and go to see her shows, and you know,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: fans get together and talk like, just back off. You're
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: being very.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Strange, right, But we wouldn't have a great pantheon of
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: creepy movies if it weren't for that. Oh yeah, you know,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: celebrity worship, the borderline pathology. There's a lot of those,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: huh yes, but they may be generally made up.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure are any of them good. What comes
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: to mind is the Robert de Niro Wesley Snipes one.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Because we haven't even talked about sports. That one thing
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: that you sent me that is accurate is when you're
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: at home screaming at a football player for dropping a
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: pass or something that's a parasocial interaction.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Right, So that's a parasocial interaction. You can imad that
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: that player knowing his wife's name and when they got married,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: that's the beginnings of a parasocial relationship. That's the distinction.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Parasocial interaction can be cold out of just about anybody.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Sure if you're into whatever you're watching, but that doesn't
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: mean you're going to follow up after the game or
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: the episode is.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: Over, right, And don't ever talk back at the movie screen,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: although it can be funny.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: In the theater. Yeah, no, never.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: I mean I don't do it, and I think it's rude.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: But I've also had a pretty good laugh or two
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: when someone timed it out just right. My famous story
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: about the Witch in New York that I won't repeat.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'll just tell you what episode, go find it.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: I forget stuff. Do you want to take a second break.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, let's see that. We'll be we'll get back
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: here in a minute, and we'll talk about some of
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: the benefits perhaps, and then the dark side right after this.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: Okay. So I think we kind of laid out that
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: there's a really big disagreement on whether this is actually
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: problematic or not. I kind of tend to lean in
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: the camp that not, although for some people it can
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: be okay. Yeah, But there's also like a whole other
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: school of thought that this is actually helpful in some ways,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: in some surprising ways too, but in ways that you
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: would you would probably guess like that you are physically, emotionally,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: psychologically getting a benefit out of that parasocial relationship. That
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: if you have a favorite podcast and favorite podcasters and
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: we and you listen to them, you feel like you're
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: hanging out with your friends. You're receiving positive benefits from that.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: And as long as you're not replacing real life friends, yeah,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: with podcast friends, because your real life friends are bothering you,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: they bug you're you're you're getting basically nothing but benefit
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: from it.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And some of the other specific benefits are examples
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: of where and you see this more and more of
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: these days with well with all kinds of people, actors
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: and pop stars and stuff. Talking about mental health, people
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: have many many, many people have sought treatment for themselves
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: because their favorite singer has been open and honest about
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: an eating disorder or a mental challenge. I think Dave
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: is the example of Katie Couric years ago when she
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: her husband died of colon cancer, and she did a
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: broadcast where she got a colonoscopy, and the rate of
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: people getting colonoscopies jumped after that. So it literally can
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: help people be physically and mentally healthier because they're taking
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: a queue, Like they may not want to listen to
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: their friend who says, hey, you should get some help,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: but they'll listen to Edie Brikel what say, Wow, I
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: don't know how that happened, but no question just goes
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: Billie Eilish and Adie Brikell say you know you should
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: you should see ke help if you're having struggles with
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: this certain thing.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, yes, that's a benefit for for all two right,
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean that you're like you're just doing
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: what the celebrity you like tells you to. There's a
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: certain amount of I think, just raising awareness that is
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: an accountant for in that as well. Also supposedly, having
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: a parasocial relationship with somebody in an outgroup from you
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: can actually create feelings of empathy towards real life members
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: of that out group totally. There was a twenty twenty
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: study published in Communications Research that had participants watched ten
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: weeks of a show that featured LGBTQ plus people as
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: outgroup people, and over the ten weeks, most of the
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: people developed at least an affinity for the outgroup people,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: but some people actually developed parasocial relationships with them. And
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: the groups that were the most prejudiced against gay people
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: going into the study had the most growth and actually
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: had lower lessened attitudes of prejudice toward gay people after
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: the study because they were exposed to gay people through TV,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: through these characters that they developed some form of parasocial
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: relationship with.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, like, I usually don't like homosexuals, but after watching,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: after being forced to watch Six Feet Under, Keith and
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Michael's story was so sweet and I just really love
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: those guys. That happens, And that's why, and that's one
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: reason why representation matters. Just one reason.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Go ahead, So, Chuck, speaking of gay love stories, I
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: saw Have you seen The Last of Us? I'm sure
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: you have.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I played the game as well. I was
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: waiting to it.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: So the I think episode three the best.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Nikauferman just amazing, dude, It is so amazing.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: So if you have a relative who is homophobic, just
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: start watching the Last of Us and they like guns
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: episode yeah, and hate zombies and episode three will spring
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: on them and before they know it, they'll love gay
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: people for the rest of their lives. It's amazingly well done.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: Well, you know the story there is in the game.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: There is a just one brief mention of the partner
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I can't think of his name now, Yeah, there's only yeah,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: there's only one mention of Frank when he just says
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: something in the game about like, yeah, I lost a
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: partner a year ago something something, And you don't even
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: know when you're playing the game if it was like
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: a business partner or whatever. And then when they made
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: the TV show, they said, hey, this is like a
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: chance to go off script and to build a richer
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: world and to like make this great episode of this
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: awesome backstory. Yeah, and it was, you know, hal was
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: like one of the best TV episodes of the year
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: of like any show.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's so good, amazing. Nick Offerman just did such
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: a great job.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And the other guy from White Lotus got he's
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: so good.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: I've never seen him before. I've not watched that show.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Oh I think you would like White Lotus.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: I've heard, I've heard, I've heard.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Murray what's his name, Aby something? F Murray Abraham, No,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Murray Bartlett. He's fantastic.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, Has he been in anything else besides
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: White Lotus? I might have seen him in because I've
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: been recognized him, but he had a pretty thick beer.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know he's so good at White Lotus though.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'll check it. I'll check he's.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: He's been another stuff, and he's certainly like probably more
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: busy than he's ever been now because of those roles.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, so where were we, Chuck? We were talking about.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Well, some of the benefits too. One thing that we've
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: seen over the years is that you're not weird as
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: a forty something year old person to not have a
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: parasocial relationship, because generally speaking, teens and adolescents are more
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: likely to have these than adults do. And for teens
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: it can be kind of like we said before, if
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: there's if Edie Brikel is telling a teen about her
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: struggles with something, it's a really big deal for a
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: teen or an adolescent to know that they're not alone,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: that they can seek help, and they're not weird because
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: their favorite person, their favorite singer, also has the same thing.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Right, that's incredibly beneficial. Yeah, I mean to help kids
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: that are just feel completely isolated and make them feel
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: less alone. Also, apparently this is an explanation for the
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: trope of young girls, like pre adolescent adolescent girls having
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: crushes on like Scott Bayo or who else that's not
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: a jerk.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: The Bay City Rollers.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the Bay City Rollers. Of course, everybody went through
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: that that they're actually like the parasocial relationship helps them
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: kind of explore what a real relationship is going to be, like,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: what their expectations are, what their wants or what their
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: needs are. Yeah, you're kind there.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there a.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Significant other to have Bay City Rollers hair.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, the aka the best hair.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: I said that because I remember when I was a
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: kid very specifically. I have a memory of we had
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: a babysitter over one night, and the babysitter was a
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: girl that was older than my sister. So my sister
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: must have been pretty young because she's six years old
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: than me and she usually was the babysitter by that point.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: But I remember them sitting around with a bas City
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Rollers record and spinning it around and dropping their finger
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: on the album and whichever, you know, roller that their
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: finger landed nearest to was the one that they would
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: fall in love with. I'm such a memory of that
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: when I was like five years old or something. It's
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: very funny.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, did it just blow your mind? Or were you like,
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: what is this crying? No?
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: I got it, And you know, I famously had My
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: very first crush was Christy McNichol, who is gay. So
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know what that says about me.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: What was she and aiden is it enough?
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: No? She was in God, I mean she was in
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: movies and stuff. She was sort of just the cute
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: girl next door when we were well, I'm older than you,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: but when I was.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: A kid, I remember. I just don't remember what she
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: was in.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of something. I mean, she was
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: in movies and stuff like Little Darlings and stuff that
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: I wasn't allowed to watch. But I think she was
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: on a TV show too.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm familiar with her. I can't remember what.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Oh family it was on that family.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: That's why I thought it was eight is enough. It's
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: basically the same.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Thing exactly, there just weren't eight of them.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: I think. So again can be very beneficial. Usually very harmless.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: There is a dark side. That's not to say that
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: there isn't that that parasocial relationships can't go wrong, or
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: that they can be harmful or it can't be harmful.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: And one of the one of the ways that I
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: said that media is built on itself over and over again. Yeah, kid,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: going from radio to TV TV. Apparently. Another big crest
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: of this was when reality shows came along, yep, made
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: people even more connected to the people on the screen.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: And then social media came along, and that is it's
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: it's almost like it was designed to get into your
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: brain and be like, this person is legitimately your friends.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: They liked your post, they may even like DM back
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: and forth with you, they might respond to your email.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: They know who you are, they're your friend, and at
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: that point, it being that realistic, it can trick you
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: into forgetting that they aren't your friend, they don't really
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: know you. And this is a parasocial relationship, especially especially
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: for developing minds.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, because all of a sudden, you have twenty
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: four to seven access depending on how active someone is
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: in social media, where they are really sharing their life,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: and you see a post by someone and you think, oh,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: my gosh, I have a black main coon cat too,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: and I had that same tile in your bathroom. You're
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: getting the little glimpses. And I mentioned Tyle because I
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: did the same thing. I saw Melissa McCarthy post something
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: one time and I had the same tile that she did,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: and I, like a dope, thought, Oh my god, we
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: have the same taste. We would be such good friends.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Well, she's a huge TikTok influencer, so I'm sure that
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: happens still lots of people.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Oh is she really? Oh I don't know.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: I don't think so.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: I've never been on TikTok.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: I see her more on Instagram.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure. But they classify it as unhealthy when it's
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: disrupts your life, when it disrupts your daily life day
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: to day, and if it's damaging or replacing your real
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: life relationships. That's when it's if you're spending money like
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: the furthest extreme is when all of a sudden you've
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: quit your job because you have to go live in
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: the city where this person is, or you're spending a
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: lot of money collecting expensive memorabilia or buying them gifts
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: and sending them. That's where it gets into the potential
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: stalker realm.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, or that you threaten self harm if they don't
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: respond to you, or yeah, it can be it can
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: get problematic. And again this is exceedingly rare. I don't
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: think it's like a huge thing. To lose sleepover is
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: like no a parent or a concerned person, but it
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: can't happen. And again that just the combination of social
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: media and at developing brains. It's just so dangerous in
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: so many different ways and so potentially harmful in so
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: many different ways. And this is one of those ways
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: that it can happen. One of the other I think
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: risk factors is is it is possible to kind of
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: let your in real life relationships dwindle as because you're
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: putting more and more focus and energy into your parasocial relationship.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: And that also is kind of like a self defeating
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: thing because there's fewer people to kind of pull you
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: back toward reality and say like, no, no, where are
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: your friends? That person is an influencer, doesn't even know
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: you exist. So let's go get some ice cream and
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: play Fortnite while we do.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Right, that's a nice call up.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: You're not even in gamer No, I'm not, but I've
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: heard of Fortnite before on TV.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: So there's an article that they found that is really
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: interesting and good, I think from The Guardian from a
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: couple of years ago by Rachel aerost I guess called
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Tragic but True colon how podcasters replaced our real friends,
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: and Rachel makes a very strong case that podcasting has
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: even up the game even more parasocially speaking, and COVID
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: really helped with that because during COVID, when people were
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: locked in and they weren't seeing their friends face to
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: face anymore, they would have a zoom meetings and phone
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: calls with certainly with their business associates, but also with friends.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: I mean I did this a few times where I
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: would get on a zoom with a friend from out
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: of town or even in town, and all of a sudden,
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: podcasting increased. I think fifty one percent of podcast listeners
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: say they first started listening during the pandemic, and it
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: grew forty percent from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty two.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: So not only are more people listening, but they're listening
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: in this very intimate way, and you know, people are
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: in their ear holes and you're looking and interacting the
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: same way you were on like a zoom because you
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: were robbed of contact with your friends. So it's basically
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: there was nothing to distinguish the two except talking back.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: What a weird turn of events too, for sure. But
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: the thing is is so the I think that title
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: is very misleading because if you read it, she's not
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: actually really lamenting it. She's more just kind of documenting it. Yeah,
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: I think. And she also makes the point that this
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: was at a time during the pandemic, during like lockdowns,
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: where you were physically unable to interact with friends, and
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: podcasts made a pretty great substitute for a while, and
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: that that in and of itself makes it less harmful.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: I might be a little biased, but I do think
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: that yes, being in people's ears is one of those triggers,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: like looking at people in the camera was with TV
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: early on, Like that's a very very intimate to let
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: somebody to let their voice be in your mind and
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: basically take over your mind for that period of time.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: And that's of course what we're doing everybody, we're experimenting.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and the other thing too is podcasting is they
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: found this great Honors thesis by someone named Mikayla Nadora
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: from Portland State University a few years ago called Parasocial
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: Relationships with podcast Hosts, where Mikayla even references stuff you
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: should know, which is very great.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: She the whole thing is about stuff you should know,
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: all thirty seven pages. Yeah, I remember her sending this
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: to us when she published.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: Oh that's right, God, I totally remember that. Now we
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: get a lot of thesis actually interestingly, but the whole
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: upshot is that with podcasting, anyone can do it. You
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: have to have a small amount of equipment in the Internet,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: and it's not like you have to, you know, go
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: through the trials and tribulations of someone auditioning for a
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: role to eventually get on TV and stuff like that,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: and then you're a big star. It's like it's a
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: low barrier to entry. And that means that there's going
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: to be a lot of just sort of everyday people
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: and regular schmos like you and I doing this, and
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: that lends itself even more to people thinking like, of
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: course we're friends, Like I'm not gonna be friends with
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: Carrie Bradshaw or Sarah Jessica Parker because they're just so fabulous.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: But Chuck and Josh are just Normy's like us, so
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: we would be.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: Friends normcore to the max. We are. Another thing that
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Mikhael and Nadora kind of susted out as a trigger
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: or Q, is that a lot of times people listen
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: to podcasts alone. A lot of people listen and listen
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: to them with other people, but for the I would
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: say the vast majority alone, I think listen to them alone.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: But they're also listening to them while they're doing other
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: activities like vacuuming or commuting or going to the grocery store.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: So it's like we're along for the ride. We're keeping
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: you company while you're doing all this stuff. We're just
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: sitting in the backseat having a conversation that you're listening
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: to while you drive us to the grocery store.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Right, and also as we have done over the years,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: and especially you know, there are all kinds of podcasts,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: but they found that the ones, I know it makes
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: sense with the strongest parasocial bonds are ones like this
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: where it's sort of people chatting, conversational usually comedy and
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: not like a dramatic like I don't know, true crime.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: I guess they can have that angle with the hoster
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: have a lot of personality, Yeah, Karen and Georgia, Yeah
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: for sure. But with shows like the ones that we do,
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: you talk inevitably about our lives and a house project
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: we're doing, or Momo or Nico and Charlie or you
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: Me and Emily or Ruby, and people get invested because
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: they know this stuff about us and they know they
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: feel like they know these people, like who gets the
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: biggest applause at any lives when Emily and you Me
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: are there? Emily and you Me, people are thrilled when
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: they're there. And Ruby was at her first live show
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: in Atlanta and people were just like, I mean, people
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: are kind of staring at her, and I didn't get
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: creeped out because people are being super sweet and friendly
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: and they thought it was so sweet that she was
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: at her first show. But people hear these stories, and
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: I get it because I do the same thing with
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: my podcast hosts that I love, and it all just
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: makes sense, like recalling jokes and people have especially with us,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: have lived fifteen sixteen years with us, and that whole
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: thing where people get mad when their favorite celebrity couple
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: gets a divorce, like it's it's so weird to think about,
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: but Emily and I get mad when Susan Saranon and
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Tim Robbins split up, and if Emily and I got divorced,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: people would hate my guts that listen to this show.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think what she kind of sums all
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: that up in is that that's one of the benefits
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: of having a long running podcast or listening to a
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: long running podcast. Little by little, all that stuff comes
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: out and you become immeshed in the other that hosts life,
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Like you know what's going on in their life, and
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: that's exactly what you do with friends. You know what's
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: going on in their life. You know their dog's name
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: and that their dog is great, and you know their
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: wife's name and their wife is great. You just know
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: this stuff. And it's just another way that media is
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: tricking our brains, which are programmed to seek social connections,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: into thinking, oh, I've got a social connection going on.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: This is pretty great, right, and people don't know that
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: I can be very moody and passive aggressive, like even
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: in a podcast medium like this, where it is real
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: for the most part, you don't want to show that
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: stuff on the air. You put your best self forward.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Even in a medium like this, right.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: That's why they coin that term persona or persona because yeah,
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: that's it's just no one does that. Maybe what was
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: that horrible punk guy who used to eat his own
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: poop on stage? Yes, maybe gg Allen would do that
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: if he were still alive and had a podcast. But
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: for the most part, no, anybody, no matter who it is,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: is going to at the very least put some semblance
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: of their best self forward. Even if it's not one
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: hundred percent. It doesn't mean it's made up. It's that
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: you're holding some stuff back because it's just you don't
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: share that with people you've never met before. And in
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: that sense, we the hosts are aware that you can
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: form a parasocial relationship with us, we can't do that
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: with you, So that inherently makes us slightly guarded to
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: some degree or another and creates for you, guys, a
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: persona that is an idealized version of us.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: But here's the thing. If I talk about being passive, aggressive,
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: or moody, that ramps up the relationship because people can
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: identify with that. I just can't be that to you
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: on the air, Yeah, because then people would witness the
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: actual act of it and say, well, geez CHUCKSA can
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: be a real moody jerk sometimes.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: I know it'd be like the crossword puzzle all over
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: it again. Oh no, oh no, I'm kidding. Great episode,
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: but man, that got everybody up to set, you know,
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: like they were like, what is going on? Like is
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: this the end of stuff you should know? Oh? I know.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: I think I took my enthusiasm for crosswords and got weird.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: Oh it was fine. I think it's a classic app
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: It was a good one too, but I mean the
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: fact that it has just that little ball of weirdness
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: in there. I love. Sure, classic stuff you should know.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: Uh, I mean that's all I got. I think it
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: is super interesting for sure.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: This is a what made you choose this? One? That
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: I'm sure everybody wants to know because they'll feel closer
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: to you if you tell them.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: I don't Dave might have actually thought of this or no,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: maybe maybe i'd a because I didn't even know this
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: was a term. I've lived it on both sides, but
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: I never knew people studied it, so, uh, I don't know.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's where it came from. I just saw the
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: words and I was like, oh wait, that's me. Both times,
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: chuck both ways.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: There you go. That comes after the colon from Parasocial Relationship.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: It's chuck both ways.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like a fine dish in a great restaurant. All right,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: sure you never had that, like scallop two ways or whatever.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: That's the thing.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: I made salad four ways, check salad like a niche
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: wase salad. Okay, what were the other two? Oh? One
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: was like a corn and bean salad.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, sounds good.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: And then there was another one, and I was like,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: my god, I made four salads. Yeah, there's a lot
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: of leftover salad, but it.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Was good salad forward ways.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: I like it.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: When I came over, he only made me three salads,
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: so I'm a little salty.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: I was holding back. I still perfecting the fourth one.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: I'll make that fourth one for you some other time.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: Please.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I feel like we're done with this episode. You
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: said that's all you got, It's all I've got. I'm
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: done talking about salad. So that means it's time for
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: listener mail.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: I'm going to call this inspiration. Hey guys, I want
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: to reach out and say that I love your show.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: My husband discovered it showed it to me. I haven't
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: stopped listening since when I was a stay at home
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: mom feeling lonely, I would turn on the show and
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: feel like I was having a conversation with friends. That's funny,
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: I didn't even preread this one.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: No way, really yeahs.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: And Kinley says parentheses in the least creepy way possible.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: I always could to include that. Your show even gave
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: me the inspiration idea to write a daily true crime
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: calendar as a way for me to share my interest
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: with others just like you. In fact, several days in
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: my calendar are inspired by some of your episodes. By
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: getting this idea from you to work on the calendar,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: it helped me through a postpartum anxiety wow, and helped
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: me feel like I was helping to provide for my
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: new little one. I would love to show my appreciation
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: by sending you each a copy of my calendar. If
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: you would like one, just reply send my address so hey,
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: you can send it. Here's my home address. I'm just kidding.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: So grateful I was able to discover the show, because
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't be where I would am now if I
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: hadn't keep doing the good work. I'll look forward to
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: hearing from you and that is from ken Lee. Ken Lee, Yeah,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: Kinley and I Kimle Yeah. I want one of these
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: true crime calendars. I love a daily calendar. I just
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: need to send kin Lee the address.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, same here, so please spell kim Lee or Kinley's
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: name kay I n l e Y Kinley. Oh yeah,
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: like Mount McKinley, but without the mount or.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: The Mitchy exactly.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Kinley, thank you so much for that email. Like I
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: said at the beginning of this episode, we love hearing
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: stuff like that, so we're glad we could help in
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: some way. And I'd love a calendar too. If you
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: want to be like Kinlee and get in touch with us,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: you can send us an email as well. Send it
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: off to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.