Latest / Ministry Minded / Writing, Status, and Storytelling with Griffin Gooch

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Writing, Status, and Storytelling with Griffin Gooch · Ministry Minded

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SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our messy
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SPEAKER_02: ministries.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, of course, Pastor Brad Gray.
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I serve as the senior pastor here at Stonington Baptist Church
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in Paxinus,
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Pennsylvania.
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And today I'm so thrilled to share a conversation with a fellow
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Substack writer,
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and friend he's essayist and also phd student griffin gooch
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griffin is just a great
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and fantastic and compelling writer i can't recommend uh his
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essays enough if you
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haven't yet read any of his stuff highly recommend you do that
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we're going to talk
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about that we're going to talk in this particular episode a lot
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about writing and
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SPEAKER_02: about storytelling and why
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storytelling plays such a particularly significant role when it
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comes to the
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SPEAKER_02: Christian faith itself,
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how we communicate the gospel and how we convey the truths of
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Christ to right where
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SPEAKER_02: we are,
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SPEAKER_02: to sinners right where they are.
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SPEAKER_02: We're going to talk about that,
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why Griffin feels called to write and what that means and what
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that looks like,
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SPEAKER_02: the process of that.
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SPEAKER_02: If you are in any way, shape, or form interested in writing or writing
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SPEAKER_02: you're an aspiring writer or anything like that,
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I think you're really going to find this episode particularly
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compelling and also
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SPEAKER_02: interesting and fascinating.
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SPEAKER_02: Griffin is just a great guy.
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SPEAKER_02: It was great to get to know him a little bit better.
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SPEAKER_02: So definitely sit back, enjoy this episode.
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SPEAKER_02: I know you'll be blessed by it and we'll catch you on the other side.
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SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks for tuning in to the Ministry Minded Podcast.
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SPEAKER_02: It is so good to have,
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SPEAKER_02: I guess I can call my friend now since we've met on Substack,
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SPEAKER_02: Griffin Gooch on the podcast.
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SPEAKER_02: How are you doing, Griffin?
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SPEAKER_00: I'm doing great.
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SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me on here.
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, man.
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SPEAKER_02: Ever since, I don't even know how we got connected, honestly.
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SPEAKER_02: Somehow through Substack,
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SPEAKER_02: I feel like Substack has kind of like exploded recently,
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SPEAKER_02: at least in terms of like users and followers and whatnot.
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SPEAKER_02: And for whatever reason, the algorithm gods brought us together.
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And I've just enjoyed getting to know you through your writing
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and through the
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SPEAKER_02: things that you publish.
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SPEAKER_02: So I'm really excited to kind of get to know you more here.
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SPEAKER_02: For those who aren't familiar, kind of introduce yourself.
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SPEAKER_02: where you are,
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what kind of keeps you busy and some of the things that you're
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interested in,
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SPEAKER_02: what you write about and stuff like that.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so again, my name is Griffin Gooch.
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SPEAKER_00: I just turned 28.
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SPEAKER_00: I live in Kalamazoo, Michigan with my wife, Tiffany.
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SPEAKER_00: We both love to read.
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SPEAKER_00: It's pretty much our main hobby.
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SPEAKER_00: And we're heavily involved in our local church.
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SPEAKER_00: It's a radiant church.
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SPEAKER_00: It's a neo-Pentecostal church.
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SPEAKER_00: We love it.
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SPEAKER_00: And personally,
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SPEAKER_00: just vocationally,
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SPEAKER_00: I am getting my PhD in theology at the University of Aberdeen right now,
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SPEAKER_00: but studying at a distance because
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SPEAKER_00: Both of our families live right in the area and we love them.
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SPEAKER_00: And we kind of wanted to, you know, keep that close family net around.
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SPEAKER_00: And just in my free time,
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SPEAKER_00: just in general,
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SPEAKER_00: beyond doing PhD and stuff,
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SPEAKER_00: I like to write frequently.
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SPEAKER_00: It's like one of the callings that I feel like God's put on my life.
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SPEAKER_00: And so I write a lot on Substack and on there,
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SPEAKER_00: most of my essays have to do with connecting theological relationships
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SPEAKER_00: uh, doctrine with other academic disciplines.
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So a lot of the research that I do is usually involved in like
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psychology or
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SPEAKER_00: sociology or,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: really just any other kind of discipline.
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SPEAKER_00: That's a lot of the research that I do is in other fields,
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SPEAKER_00: but that I like to make,
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I like to make connections between those other fields and
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theology to make,
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to make it not for the sake of being like theology is cool and
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all of this stuff is
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SPEAKER_00: compatible.
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SPEAKER_00: I
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hope to ultimately say that theology is like the highest of all
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the academic
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disciplines and everything is ordered under it but look at
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these interesting things
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here and there that might help illuminate some of the smaller
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details about
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theology so that like when we're looking at everything all
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together it can kind of
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SPEAKER_00: make more sense in a more cohesive uh worldview
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
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There's a lot of ways in which a lot of those areas intersect
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and overlap with the
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SPEAKER_02: study of theology,
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SPEAKER_02: which makes,
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SPEAKER_02: I think,
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SPEAKER_02: studying those other avenues kind of open up for us,
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SPEAKER_02: as you kind of mentioned.
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SPEAKER_02: What's the focus of your PhD?
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SPEAKER_02: You said you're getting a PhD in theology.
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SPEAKER_02: What's kind of like your main focus?
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SPEAKER_02: Or is there not a main focus?
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SPEAKER_00: It's funny because I'm still in my first year.
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Every time I meet with my advisor,
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he's like,
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this is going to change so much.
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SPEAKER_00: You're going to cut out half of this.
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SPEAKER_00: He's probably right to a certain extent.
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But my basic thesis,
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my basic general idea that is surrounding it right now,
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and it's like...
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: I have like 80,000 words written for it right now,
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but I'm probably going to end up cutting out like at least
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40,000 of those.
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SPEAKER_00: But the general idea is that it's a theology of social status.
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SPEAKER_00: So I remember around three years ago,
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I was reading a few books that were talking about this thing
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called the psychology
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SPEAKER_00: of social status.
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I looked a little bit more into it and I found that there was a
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bunch of these
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SPEAKER_00: studies by psychologists,
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SPEAKER_00: social scientists that found that a fundamental human need,
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something that humans crave on par with things like money or
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even like food,
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SPEAKER_00: water,
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SPEAKER_00: shelter,
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SPEAKER_00: is social status.
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They want to feel as though they belong and that they have
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esteem in the eyes of their peers.
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SPEAKER_00: They really care about their relative social standing.
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SPEAKER_00: So much so that it can even trump money in some cases.
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So there's been plenty of studies that they did where they
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would ask people just in
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SPEAKER_00: general,
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SPEAKER_00: would you prefer like $100,000 a year or would you – $100,000 a year –
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SPEAKER_00: where everybody else makes $75,000 a year.
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Would you prefer $175,000 a year,
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but everybody else makes $185,000 a year?
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SPEAKER_00: Most people pick the scenario where they make $100,000 a year,
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SPEAKER_00: and everybody else makes $75,000 a year,
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SPEAKER_00: even though it's technically less money.
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And so stuff like that just got me thinking a lot about just
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the interactions that
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Jesus has with the Pharisees and how he is so upset with the
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way that they are
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SPEAKER_00: constantly showing off their status or their religious piety.
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SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean, if you look at Matthew 23, I mean, Jesus was like
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SPEAKER_00: Love embodied, right?
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SPEAKER_00: So he was love.
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He was walking around just as the most perfect embodiment of
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love that's ever existed.
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SPEAKER_00: And yet Matthew 23 is the most scathing critique.
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I think probably in the Bible for sure,
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but even just beyond that,
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it is so...
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intense you know he's calling them whitewashed tombs they're
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walking around uh
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trying to make themselves seem cool or like they look good on
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the outside but he's
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like i see what's actually beyond that it's like you are only
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posturing yourself
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you're cleaning up the outside of the cup or the outside of the
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tomb but on the
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inside there is nothing in there like you are actually dead for
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you know lack of
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SPEAKER_00: better terminology
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SPEAKER_00: And so I,
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I started thinking about these things together and I was just
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trying to think that
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SPEAKER_00: there hasn't been a ton of people who've researched this,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: from the kind of standpoint that I was thinking of it,
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SPEAKER_00: uh,
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SPEAKER_00: of it was.
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SPEAKER_00: So we have like Saren Kierkegaard, uh,
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SPEAKER_00: who was writing,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: a few hundred years ago,
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SPEAKER_00: and he had a big theory of human comparison,
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SPEAKER_00: which is pretty similar in some sense to the psychology's social status.
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SPEAKER_00: But other than that, not a lot of people have been talking about it.
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And so I was trying to think about how can I connect these two
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things into a
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cohesive whole and bring in a bunch of other different
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theological doctrines,
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SPEAKER_00: make sense of it,
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SPEAKER_00: and also ask about how we as contemporary Westerners who...
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SPEAKER_00: have so many more status signals to deal with.
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SPEAKER_00: You know,
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SPEAKER_00: we have social media,
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SPEAKER_00: we have nice cars,
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SPEAKER_00: we have just any other,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: even what,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: the books that we read,
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SPEAKER_00: the TV shows that we watch,
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SPEAKER_00: everything that we can do is like this little subtle status play.
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Like I have this taste and I like these things and these are
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the clothes that I
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SPEAKER_00: wear and every- I only listen to indie music.
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SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
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SPEAKER_00: That's one of those things.
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I mean,
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I actually do that all the time,
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which is kind of connecting,
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but-
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or uh yeah i mean like even if we're talking like uh theology
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like um one of i do
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like this guy but oliver o'donovan is like probably one of the
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highest tier
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theologians that you can think of some of his stuff is like
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almost incomprehensible
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and i really do enjoy him but at the same time when people are
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asking me like oh
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who's your favorite theologian i find i'm kind of like oh i
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love oliver o'donovan
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even though it's like i don't necessarily love and enjoy all of
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his works but it's
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SPEAKER_00: like i know that if i throw that out the
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SPEAKER_00: like people might respect me a little bit more.
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SPEAKER_00: Anyways, that was just a long side trail.
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I'm trying to see how these things conflate and how we as
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modern Westerners can
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actually do better at dealing with social status because we
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have so many different
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SPEAKER_00: ways that we can struggle with it.
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SPEAKER_00: So I'm trying to figure out,
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SPEAKER_00: theologically speaking,
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the early church found a way to transcend all of these
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different status boundaries.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, the Roman world was stratified in so many different ways.
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SPEAKER_00: It was more harshly stratified or stratified.
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than we are nowadays it was much more harshly stratified but
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the early church found
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a way to de-stratify itself and become a place where people
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have all social classes
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ethnicities races gender income or even like levels of like
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perceived piety they
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SPEAKER_00: can all come together under this beautiful banner
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
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SPEAKER_02: that's a fantastic point,
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SPEAKER_02: and it's a great reminder too,
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SPEAKER_02: especially as you're reading – like you mentioned Romans.
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I was thinking about books like Philippians or even the letter
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to – Paul writes to
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Titus where he's talking about Titus is going back to these
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people on Crete,
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which were kind of known for having a lot of – being rough
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around the edges,
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SPEAKER_02: so to speak,
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SPEAKER_02: but all –
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SPEAKER_02: No matter what,
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SPEAKER_02: no matter who you are visiting or who you're ministering to,
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SPEAKER_02: they are all part of the family of God.
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So there's this great leveling that happens within the gospel
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and the preaching of
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SPEAKER_02: the gospel and the ministry of the word,
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which I think you rightly point out kind of levels the playing
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field when it comes
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SPEAKER_02: to social status,
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SPEAKER_02: which is –
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in a lot of ways so foreign it's almost alien to us um
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especially now like in 2025
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when like like as you mentioned like no matter what we do or
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say or like what we
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post it's it's even if it's innocent there is a little bit of
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like social status
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game that we're playing like that whole thing of like you get
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six photos and
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everyone's crying and all but one and then you post the one
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where everyone's looks
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SPEAKER_02: happy and it's like look at this great adventure
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SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: It may not have always been that way.
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SPEAKER_02: Thinking about that,
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it reminds me of – and I'm going to – I hate to be the guy that
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quotes the stand-up
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SPEAKER_02: comedian bit because it's never as funny.
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SPEAKER_02: Do it.
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I always am reminded of that bit that Brian – I think I
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mentioned it to you that
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one time that Brian Regan uses in that classic I Walked on the
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Moon where he talks
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SPEAKER_02: about the guy,
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the me monster at the dinner party and he's talking about me
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and all the things
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he's done and how he wishes that he could just be an astronaut
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who can just totally
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one-up any sort of social status story that's being told
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because he can just say at
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SPEAKER_02: any time he wants,
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SPEAKER_02: I walked on the moon.
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SPEAKER_02: And then no one can top that.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think we all,
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SPEAKER_02: I think,
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are striving in some weird way for our own I walked on the moon
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sort of story.
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SPEAKER_02: And that way we can kind of beat anyone else's social status.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
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I just I think it's fascinating because I think the gospel kind
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of informs us on
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SPEAKER_02: that,
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SPEAKER_02: even if we don't consciously think of it that way.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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And what's so funny is I absolutely agree with everything that
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you're saying.
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But I've been studying this for,
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I mean,
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at least two,
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maybe three years now.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's like every day I notice a new way that this kind of pops up.
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SPEAKER_00: So Sergeant Kierkegaard, he has this...
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SPEAKER_00: It's like one of his lesser known works called Without Assumption,
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SPEAKER_00: but he's talking about the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: So the Pharisee and the tax collector,
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SPEAKER_00: they're both in the same temple,
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SPEAKER_00: but the Pharisee prays and he says,
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SPEAKER_00: thank God that I am not like other men,
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SPEAKER_00: that I'm not like this tax collector over here.
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SPEAKER_00: Thank God that I'm a pious person, that I live my life forever.
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way and then I look the way that I do I can seem the way that I
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do but then this
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tax collector he uh beats his chest and just says have mercy on
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me father for I
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have sinned and Jesus says the point of the parable is you know
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to be the tax
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collector the tax collector is the one who actually leaves
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forgiven but when
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Kierkegaard was talking about this story he was like the thing
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that happens in that
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SPEAKER_00: story
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is that people read it and they say i do not want to resemble
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that pharisee i'm
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going to resemble that tax collector but when they say i'm
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going to resemble that
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tax collector and i'm going to be like that tax collector
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they're also subtly um
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putting down that pharisee and then in their mind they've also
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taken on this
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complex where now when they do see somebody who is practicing
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public piety they
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SPEAKER_00: feel superior to that person and
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Because now they've read this parable where Jesus condemns that
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person in favor of
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SPEAKER_00: this other person.
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SPEAKER_00: And so that just blew my mind because I'm like,
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SPEAKER_00: I've been thinking about this for years now,
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SPEAKER_00: but there are just so many little ways that this pops in.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm like,
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SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: every time that I've read that parable,
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SPEAKER_00: every time that I've heard it spoken aloud,
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SPEAKER_00: I identify with the tax collector and I subtly condemn the Pharisee.
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SPEAKER_00: I feel superior to them after having heard that.
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SPEAKER_00: And so it's just crazy, man.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Well, man, that's such a great point.
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SPEAKER_02: And people in my church have probably heard me say this,
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SPEAKER_02: but anytime that you feel like you're ready to vilify the Pharisee,
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SPEAKER_02: we need to stop because we should probably look in the mirror and say,
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SPEAKER_02: I am the Pharisee.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think once we realize that, like – I don't know.
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SPEAKER_02: Like you, I've been reading these stories since I was a kid.
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SPEAKER_02: Like I grew up in Sunday school.
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As I told you,
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like my dad and granddad were in the ministry and stuff like
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that.
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SPEAKER_02: So I've always – I've heard these stories so often.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think –
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SPEAKER_02: In a way – maybe it's not intentional,
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but in a way sometimes we can tell stories like the one you're
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mentioning in Luke
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SPEAKER_02: 18,
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SPEAKER_02: the Pharisee and the publican,
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as if the Pharisee is like the Disney villain and the publican
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is like the
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SPEAKER_02: up-and-coming – it's like Hunchback of Notre Dame.
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He's Quasimodo,
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and then the other guy in there,
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he's the Pharisee,
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whatever.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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But that totally misses the point of those stories because more
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often than not,
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SPEAKER_02: we're the Pharisee.
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In all these little scenarios where we see someone else's
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weakness or impiety,
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SPEAKER_02: we suddenly have this urge to point out our own or signal our virtue,
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which is so easily able to do in this eight-day nature where we
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can post whatever
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SPEAKER_02: we want.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, that's such a good reminder.
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SPEAKER_02: Like,
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SPEAKER_02: we're the Pharisee,
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SPEAKER_02: which I think,
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SPEAKER_02: again,
15:26
SPEAKER_02: is kind of like the point of the work of God's Word,
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SPEAKER_02: which is to humble us,
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SPEAKER_02: but then also to build us back up by God's grace,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: to the work of the law and the gospel on us.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think that, yeah, that's such a good point.
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SPEAKER_00: Amen, man.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
15:41
SPEAKER_02: So as you're navigating this research,
15:44
how does that play into – like you kind of mentioned that some
15:48
of this research
15:49
SPEAKER_02: that you're doing for your PhD kind of ekes its way out through Substack.
15:52
How have you – like do you just go on tangents when you're
15:56
writing essays like from
15:57
your other research or is this just like part of all that and
16:00
these are going to be
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SPEAKER_02: like chapters in your book or how does that play out?
16:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: So that's actually a really great question.
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SPEAKER_00: So a lot of it does come from the dissertation.
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But one of the things that about Substack and I don't know if
16:15
you know this.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: So there's this novelist.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: Her name is RF Kuang.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: She had this big book named Yellow Face.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: It came out maybe two years ago now.
16:23
But she had this event in my hometown and my wife and I went
16:27
and she was doing this
16:29
SPEAKER_00: Q&A session and she writes nonfiction too.
16:32
SPEAKER_00: And so I went up to the front of the room and I asked her like,
16:36
SPEAKER_00: so I know that you write fiction,
16:37
SPEAKER_00: but when you're writing nonfiction,
16:39
SPEAKER_00: how is that different?
16:40
SPEAKER_00: You know, she was really skilled at both.
16:42
But I was thinking like,
16:43
are you accessing just different parts of your brain or
16:46
something?
16:46
SPEAKER_00: Like, how are you making...
16:48
SPEAKER_00: both of these two genres compute.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: And she explains that when you're writing nonfiction,
16:54
SPEAKER_00: like good kind of nonfiction,
16:55
SPEAKER_00: not like academic dissertations.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, my dissertation is not good nonfiction.
17:01
It's not something that people are going to find pleasure
17:04
reading unless you're
17:05
SPEAKER_00: just insane,
17:06
SPEAKER_00: over-the-top academic kind of person or whatever.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: I'll read it, Griffin.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, thanks, man.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: You'll be one of the four people who read it.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: But she was saying that...
17:17
SPEAKER_00: If you're actually trying to create good nonfiction,
17:20
the point is not that you assemble good facts or that you
17:24
assemble good insights.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: You have to frame it in terms of a story.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: That just is the most important part.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: I mean she was right.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean just looking at the stuff that she was putting out –
17:35
SPEAKER_00: In terms of nonfiction, I think she's on Substack as well.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: But even just in terms of other theological writers that I enjoy,
17:41
SPEAKER_00: other psychological writers and stuff that I enjoy,
17:44
SPEAKER_00: no matter what,
17:45
SPEAKER_00: the best books,
17:46
SPEAKER_00: the best stories,
17:46
SPEAKER_00: the best forms of writing are always built around some sort of narrative.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: They are never just...
17:51
content dumping like this person said this or this theologian
17:54
said this just fact
17:55
after fact after fact after fact which is honestly how i did
17:59
most of my writing up
18:00
until that point i just was like let's just get to the the
18:02
facts or the quotes
18:03
which is the bread and butter of everything um so when i
18:07
realized that i started
18:10
I started thinking like I have to – if I'm going to do
18:12
nonfiction that people
18:13
SPEAKER_00: actually do want to read as opposed to an academic dissertation,
18:16
SPEAKER_00: I have to frame it in terms of a story.
18:18
So when I'm thinking about Substack,
18:20
I usually will start with an idea that I really liked.
18:25
So it will be something like Miroslav Volf released a book
18:29
about striving for superiority.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: He talks about how people are really obsessed with achievement.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: They want to outdo one another in one way or another.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: And then I'll connect that with a story of –
18:39
um my own struggle with wanting to strive for superiority and
18:43
then i'll connect it
18:44
with another analogy that frames it within a larger narrative
18:47
and then it's like
18:48
okay that's how i formulate an actual essay in that sense
18:51
because you know if i
18:53
because it's like i i personally just find the stuff about
18:57
miroslav wolf and what
18:58
he said here about striving for superiority to me i'm like that
19:01
is the best stuff
19:02
but i'm like i know i cannot just get people to read something
19:06
about that like
19:07
SPEAKER_00: I have to frame it.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: Here's an intro story.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: Here's another little story after that to like,
19:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:12
SPEAKER_00: sandwich it or whatever you want to call it.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
19:15
SPEAKER_00: even with writing for Christianity today,
19:18
SPEAKER_00: that was a big thing with a lot of their editors.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, when I was emailing with them,
19:23
SPEAKER_00: They were like, we love your idea, but you have to put it in a story.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: You have to put it in a narrative or else it's just not going to work.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: Anyways,
19:31
that was just a long-winded way to say that I do borrow a lot
19:34
from my PhD for when
19:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm writing on Substack,
19:36
SPEAKER_00: when I'm writing for other publications,
19:38
SPEAKER_00: but in general,
19:39
SPEAKER_00: the biggest difference is
19:41
When I'm actually trying to write something that will appeal to
19:44
people's hearts,
19:45
SPEAKER_00: their emotions,
19:46
SPEAKER_00: or actually draw people into something beautiful,
19:49
SPEAKER_00: I have to find a good story.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: But once all those things fall into place, then I'm like, we're good.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's such a good point.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: And I think it helps not only just in writing,
19:59
SPEAKER_02: but I would even say like in my context,
20:01
SPEAKER_02: in my vocation,
20:03
SPEAKER_02: which I prepare and deliver weekly sermons,
20:07
SPEAKER_02: I'm always – I always try and gear myself up for them.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: But like on the Sundays when I can –
20:13
when that's like an easy story to unfold,
20:16
I'm a little bit more amped for it,
20:17
I have to say.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: But that's what I'm always trying to do is figure out what's the story,
20:22
SPEAKER_02: even within,
20:23
SPEAKER_02: you could say,
20:23
SPEAKER_02: like a text like in,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: you know,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: like Philippians or like Colossians,
20:29
figuring out and deciphering what the story is behind what Paul
20:33
is saying and why
20:34
SPEAKER_02: he's saying these things to these people in this time and
20:37
because that story is always going to come across way more
20:41
profound or resonant
20:42
SPEAKER_02: than if I were to just say,
20:43
SPEAKER_02: here's what this verse means and here's how it applies to you.
20:46
It's not like you said,
20:47
it's not just an information dump,
20:49
but you're conveying a story.
20:50
And I think what's so helpful about that point is the fact that
20:53
this is always how
20:55
SPEAKER_02: the gospel has been conveyed.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: Like if you go back...
20:58
From like the time of Abraham all the way through to like David
21:02
and all the way
21:03
SPEAKER_02: down to even when Christ is,
21:05
SPEAKER_02: you know,
21:06
SPEAKER_02: is on the road to Emmaus with the two unnamed disciples there in Luke 24.
21:10
It's always revolving around the story that God has kind of
21:15
woven into history
21:17
SPEAKER_02: through scripture.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what's so key is keeping the narrative and the story,
21:24
SPEAKER_02: which is usually centered,
21:25
SPEAKER_02: almost always centered around Christ,
21:27
SPEAKER_02: keeping that at the forefront.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: So in our writing or in our preaching,
21:31
SPEAKER_02: story is what drives truth and what drives,
21:34
SPEAKER_02: I would even say,
21:36
SPEAKER_02: change if you're trying to compel people.
21:38
Or if you're trying to persuade them to change their minds
21:42
about a certain thing or
21:43
to be convicted about a certain thing or to be comforted in a
21:47
certain thing,
21:48
SPEAKER_02: story is what is going to be the most powerful sort of vehicle for that.
21:53
absolutely yeah i mean i can't remember with the sorry i just
21:57
saw the hermeneutics
21:58
class so i really should have this off the top of my head but i
22:01
think it's like 58
22:03
of the bible is narrative or something i'm not sure what the
22:05
exact ratio is but
22:07
there's a reason why so much of it is in narrative it's because
22:10
like that transit
22:11
SPEAKER_00: like if i can't remember who said this but it was one of the um
22:16
SPEAKER_00: One of the big atheists from the early 2000s,
22:19
SPEAKER_00: they were making this complaint about the Bible where they were saying,
22:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:23
I would believe the Bible if they had E equals MC squared
22:27
written somewhere in
22:27
SPEAKER_00: there or like a theory of,
22:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:29
SPEAKER_00: relativity of magnetism or whatever,
22:31
SPEAKER_00: just made up something there,
22:33
SPEAKER_00: my bad.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: But he was just saying,
22:36
then I would believe the Bible if something as prescient as
22:39
those things was
22:39
SPEAKER_00: implanted in there.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: And one of the responses that I saw to this,
22:43
SPEAKER_00: I think Justin Brierley said it,
22:45
SPEAKER_00: but he was like,
22:46
SPEAKER_00: if the Bible had written E equals MZ squared in there,
22:50
it would not have made sense to anyone in history or culture up
22:54
until 1911.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: It would never have made sense.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: It would be just a ridiculous thing to ask.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things about the Bible,
23:03
SPEAKER_00: about just the narrative of the gospel in general,
23:05
SPEAKER_00: is that it is in the form that transcends all cultures,
23:09
SPEAKER_00: all education levels,
23:11
SPEAKER_00: all everything.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: It's like,
23:12
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
23:12
you can get a PhD in this stuff and you can learn it so deeply
23:15
and have all of
23:16
SPEAKER_00: these different realms and levels of understanding to it.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
23:20
you can have no educational background and you can hear the
23:23
story of the Pharisee
23:24
SPEAKER_00: and the tax collector.
23:25
And it actually impacts you in your heart because you see that
23:28
humility that the
23:30
tax collector has and how it actually changes his heart and
23:33
turns him into
23:33
SPEAKER_00: something.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: It turns him away from his wickedness,
23:36
SPEAKER_00: his self-centeredness and actually helps him see beyond that.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: It's like everyone can get that.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: That's so good.
23:43
SPEAKER_02: It reminds me of one of my favorite theological books,
23:47
SPEAKER_02: which is Sally Lloyd-Jones' The Jesus Storybook Bible.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: Have you ever read that?
23:54
SPEAKER_01: No, I haven't.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: So the introduction to this kid's Bible,
23:59
SPEAKER_02: which is The Jesus Storybook Bible,
24:01
SPEAKER_02: the introduction that Sally Lloyd-Jones writes is,
24:04
SPEAKER_02: I think,
24:04
SPEAKER_02: one of the most pointedly profound pieces of writing in terms of
24:10
what the Bible is,
24:12
which is,
24:12
it's all a story and it all revolves around Jesus,
24:15
of course.
24:16
SPEAKER_02: And like,
24:16
SPEAKER_02: she makes this case in a really childlike way,
24:20
but I think that's what makes it so profound is that the whole
24:23
Bible tells one
24:24
SPEAKER_02: story and it's all about Jesus.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: And that's what,
24:26
SPEAKER_02: you know,
24:27
all of the pages of the rest of this Jesus storybook Bible are
24:29
going to show is how
24:30
SPEAKER_02: it's always pointed to Jesus.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: But I always go back to that because
24:34
SPEAKER_02: There's a reason why – so another tangent.
24:38
I preached on – I preached through the books of 1 and 2 Kings
24:42
like a year – two
24:43
SPEAKER_02: years ago or so,
24:45
which is kind of daunting because they cover so much history
24:48
within the Old
24:49
SPEAKER_02: Testament.
24:49
But what's even more fascinating is the fact that they skip
24:53
like books of history.
24:55
SPEAKER_02: There's large gaps of history that are not recorded in those books,
24:58
SPEAKER_02: which is purposeful because –
25:01
SPEAKER_02: the Bible is not a history book.
25:03
SPEAKER_02: It's not a science book.
25:04
SPEAKER_02: It's not a math book.
25:05
SPEAKER_02: It's not an ethics book.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: Even the Bible is a book of revelation.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: And that story,
25:10
which reveals Christ is what is most paramount and prevailing
25:14
through everything.
25:15
And when you,
25:15
when you kind of like come to that realization,
25:18
that's kind of what like unlocks,
25:20
the Bible in a way,
25:21
because now we understand that there's one narrative being
25:24
told.
25:24
And that's why this story is included in this other piece of
25:27
history is not because
25:29
SPEAKER_02: there's a narrative that's driving what's being recorded.
25:32
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's so helpful.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: And that narrative always, you know, drives us to see the redeemer.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: I love it, man.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: But so is that it's an, isn't it?
25:41
SPEAKER_00: It's an adult book, but it's written in
25:44
SPEAKER_00: child.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: No, it's a kid's book.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it is.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: The Jesus storybook Bible.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: I'll, uh, I'll send, I love it, man.
25:50
SPEAKER_02: And I'll put the link in the notes because it,
25:52
SPEAKER_02: it,
25:52
SPEAKER_02: like I say that facetiously,
25:53
SPEAKER_02: like my favorite theological book is the Jesus storybook Bible.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: Um,
25:56
SPEAKER_02: but I also say it,
25:58
SPEAKER_02: uh,
25:58
SPEAKER_02: somewhat pointedly too,
25:59
SPEAKER_02: because,
26:00
SPEAKER_02: uh,
26:01
SPEAKER_02: if you read it,
26:02
SPEAKER_02: sadly,
26:02
SPEAKER_02: the joy,
26:03
SPEAKER_02: sadly,
26:03
SPEAKER_02: Lloyd joins,
26:03
SPEAKER_02: goes through all these like,
26:05
SPEAKER_02: you know,
26:05
SPEAKER_02: high,
26:06
SPEAKER_02: like,
26:06
SPEAKER_02: you know,
26:06
SPEAKER_02: bird's eye view of like the Bible and she's explaining it for kids.
26:10
SPEAKER_02: I can read it with my, you know,
26:12
with my six-year-old and my eight-year-old and they would get
26:14
it but it's also
26:16
really profound because she's simplifying these stories in such
26:19
a way where you get
26:20
like the kernel of it you get the you get the core truth of all
26:24
these stories um
26:25
which again is the one story that god is telling throughout
26:29
history and time that
26:31
SPEAKER_02: man needs a savior and that savior is christ and i think it's
26:34
It's just such a fresh reminder to see how that story is woven
26:40
throughout all these
26:40
SPEAKER_02: different events and these crises that unfold in the Bible.
26:45
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, regardless.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: Definitely read that if you haven't yet.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: It's really good.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay, you won me over.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: Let's just talk a little bit more about Substack.
26:55
Okay.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: Good.
26:57
Let's talk a little bit more about Substack because that's what
26:59
everyone wants to talk about.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: We can go ahead and say it, Griff.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: I think you're a little bit Substack famous now.
27:07
You've had some pieces go viral,
27:11
your Comer piece or whatever,
27:14
or even your one on prayer.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: So for aspiring writers, what are some things that you can kind of
27:24
what are some of your best practices so to speak or what are
27:28
some ways in which you
27:28
can kind of help others who are trying to um you know you know
27:33
they have like 100
27:34
subscribers or whatever maybe even less uh what are some ways
27:37
that you can say like
27:39
hey just keep writing or whatever what are some of the best
27:41
practices or ways in
27:42
SPEAKER_02: which you've you've found success when you've hit writer's block even
27:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh, man.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: So,
27:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
27:49
SPEAKER_00: just strictly just for the art of writing itself,
27:52
SPEAKER_00: I would say there's the book On Writing Well by William Zinsser,
27:57
SPEAKER_00: I believe.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: That one's incredible.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: Then A Swim in the Pond in the Rain by George Saunders.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: Those two books are so inspiring.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Actually, I would also throw in Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: That is one that you will just have so much fun with.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: And these three specifically just deal with the art of writing itself.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they helps me sort of see that there's so much more than just –
28:23
Especially in Bird by Bird,
28:25
she has all these jokes where it's like she would teach
28:27
writers.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: She would have these writing cohorts and stuff like that.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: She would teach them.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: The point is not to get published.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: The point is actually just to enjoy the art of writing.
28:37
SPEAKER_00: Then students would immediately ask, okay, but how do you get published?
28:41
SPEAKER_00: How do I get an agent?
28:42
SPEAKER_00: How do I get published?
28:44
And there was something about that that was so funny because in
28:47
all of the stuff
28:48
SPEAKER_00: that I kind of knew about writing,
28:49
SPEAKER_00: it was like,
28:50
SPEAKER_00: okay,
28:51
SPEAKER_00: the goal is just to get published and there is nothing beyond that.
28:54
But it just helped me see that you have to actually enjoy the
28:57
craft for its own
28:59
purpose or else you're just going to kind of burn out and not
29:01
have fun with it and
29:02
SPEAKER_00: also just not create a beautiful,
29:04
SPEAKER_00: beautiful product at the end of the day.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: And, um,
29:07
Okay,
29:07
so those three really helped out specifically,
29:09
which is learning how to write well.
29:11
And then for online writing specifically,
29:14
because it's a totally different thing.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
29:16
SPEAKER_00: if you're trying to write just online in general,
29:20
SPEAKER_00: you're not going to be wanting to write Ulysses by James Joyce.
29:23
You're not going to want to be writing with the prose of Dallas
29:26
Willard or something like that.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: I love Dallas Willard, but he is just not...
29:30
if you started the Substack i'm not sure how his pieces would go
29:34
it's just it's not
29:34
the kind of digestible stuff that an online audience would
29:38
really go for all
29:39
respect to him he's one of my favorites um but three books for
29:43
that uh i can't
29:44
remember the author's names but uh write useful books which
29:48
might sound paradoxical
29:49
because i'm talking about online writing but if you read it
29:52
it'll make sense it's
29:52
SPEAKER_00: like
29:53
It's basically how to write the kind of content that people
29:56
will recommend or share
29:59
SPEAKER_00: or want to read more.
30:00
And so,
30:01
I mean,
30:01
just really ask basic questions about why you're writing what
30:04
you're writing.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: So just to frame it up in like a Christian world example,
30:09
SPEAKER_00: the guy's not a Christian,
30:10
SPEAKER_00: but for a Christian world example,
30:13
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
30:13
SPEAKER_00: okay,
30:13
SPEAKER_00: you want to write a book on prayer.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: Think about every other book that has been written about prayer.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: What about your book makes it unique in any way?
30:22
What do you have to offer that would actually make people want
30:25
to recommend your
30:26
book as opposed to every other one of the books about prayer
30:30
that have come out for
30:31
SPEAKER_00: the last 2,000 years?
30:32
SPEAKER_00: And just asking simple questions like that.
30:34
Take this with a Substack or Writing for Christianity Today or
30:40
any of these other publications.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: It's like...
30:43
if you're writing a piece are there other pieces that are
30:45
better than that that you
30:47
could just recommend people to and so it's like how can you
30:50
actually create
30:50
something unique that people would actually enjoy for its own
30:53
merit and that if
30:54
people are looking for a reference like you know people are
30:57
like hey do you know a
30:58
good book about prayer or do you know a good article about
31:00
prayer what would make
31:01
your article one that they would actually send to them as
31:05
opposed to prayer by tim
31:06
SPEAKER_00: keller or you know just one of these other books or articles about prayer
31:11
SPEAKER_00: So that one was really good for that kind of thing.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: And then Smart Brevity, I don't do this well.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: But these guys, just perfect advice just for online writing.
31:22
They give you just such good advice about how to trim
31:25
everything down to its barest possible.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: denominator or whatever you want to call it.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: It's just so actually helpful for that and help.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: And it gives you a good grip of the average attention span that most,
31:38
SPEAKER_00: most readers,
31:39
SPEAKER_00: especially online spaces are,
31:42
SPEAKER_00: um,
31:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:42
SPEAKER_00: are,
31:44
SPEAKER_00: especially in the online spaces that they have, right?
31:46
SPEAKER_00: So,
31:46
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
31:47
there's some statistics in there where it's like the average
31:51
person only spends,
31:53
SPEAKER_00: I think,
31:54
26 seconds on any page that they open on the entire internet
31:58
and all of the
31:59
SPEAKER_00: browsers,
32:00
SPEAKER_00: an average of 26 seconds.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: And so it's like,
32:02
SPEAKER_00: okay,
32:03
SPEAKER_00: if you're writing a subtext post,
32:05
SPEAKER_00: that's going to be at least like,
32:06
SPEAKER_00: what,
32:06
SPEAKER_00: a 14-minute read or something like that.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: You're like...
32:09
SPEAKER_00: How can I literally trick this person into wasting more time here?
32:14
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything I can do to actually hook them into that?
32:17
It gives a very realistic estimation of how you should go about
32:21
online writing
32:22
because it just tells you these are the statistics and the
32:26
research about how bored
32:27
people get or how naturally bored people get and how fast they
32:31
get uninterested or
32:33
SPEAKER_00: that they want to back out of the webpage.
32:35
And the third one is,
32:37
um,
32:37
the art and business of online writing by Nicholas Cole.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: And this one is also a little bit humbling because this guy,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: uh,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: Nicholas Cole,
32:46
SPEAKER_00: he's apparently the most read,
32:49
SPEAKER_00: um,
32:50
SPEAKER_00: online writer out of anyone on the entire internet.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: But I had no idea who would, I'd never heard his name before.
32:56
which is very either till just now yeah which is so interesting
32:59
because like i
32:59
think out of all the writers on the whole internet he's been
33:02
read the most but i
33:04
could not tell you who he was like it's it's never crossed my
33:08
mind before and so i
33:09
think it's like a good estimation like it's it's like a
33:11
humbling reality that it's
33:13
like if i'm going to be a writer i should not expect like any
33:17
sort of like fame or
33:18
SPEAKER_00: anything like that
33:19
anyway so his book is just super practical it gives you like
33:22
actual ideas about how
33:24
you can go about writing well online and then even gives you
33:28
some of the more like
33:29
practical ends of hey you're probably not going to get rich or
33:33
rich very easily he
33:34
does give you a little bit of a plan but it's like i don't know
33:37
how easy that is to
33:37
pull off he seems like he was just preternaturally gifted in
33:40
that way um but
33:42
SPEAKER_00: anyways those six books fantastic um
33:46
SPEAKER_00: And then just like also you have to read yourself,
33:50
which is another thing that I always tell people is like you
33:53
have to read yourself
33:54
SPEAKER_00: because if you read yourself,
33:56
SPEAKER_00: you know what's good and you know what's not.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: You know,
33:58
SPEAKER_00: if you read one book a year,
34:00
SPEAKER_00: it's going to be very hard for you to be able to tell yourself.
34:02
like what is actually good reading and what is actually good
34:05
writing um as opposed
34:07
to somebody who's you know reading you know a few books a month
34:09
or something like
34:10
that because as you read a book as you read more articles as
34:13
you read anything you
34:14
consume more um you know written content or whatever you want
34:18
to call it you start
34:19
to understand okay i enjoy this and i can identify the things
34:22
about this that i
34:23
SPEAKER_00: enjoy i'm locked in i know what's good i know what i like about this
34:28
SPEAKER_00: And so then when you're actually,
34:30
SPEAKER_00: when you actually get it to your own writing,
34:32
SPEAKER_00: you just look at it and you say,
34:34
SPEAKER_00: do I actually like this?
34:35
SPEAKER_00: This is actually what I do for a full week before I post something.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: This is actually what I do.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: It's like, I'm not really doing much editing.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: All the research is done.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: I just read it over and over and again.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, do I actually like this?
34:47
Like if I was a reader,
34:49
would I actually be interested in what's going on here?
34:52
And I usually end up having to cut out like a thousand words
34:54
because I'm like,
34:55
there's
34:55
SPEAKER_00: I would lose interest in this if I was there.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: So anyways, that's just my process.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: I'd probably overthink it, but that's what I like to do.
35:05
SPEAKER_02: I think writers and overthinkers are the same people all the time.
35:11
SPEAKER_02: They go hand in hand in a lot of ways.
35:13
SPEAKER_02: So to that end,
35:15
SPEAKER_02: what is something that really just – it's that proverbial saying,
35:19
SPEAKER_02: what gets you up in the morning when it comes to writing?
35:21
SPEAKER_02: What is that thing that just drives you?
35:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
35:24
SPEAKER_02: because you like you,
35:26
SPEAKER_02: you've kind of carved out a little niche for yourself and there's a,
35:30
SPEAKER_02: there's a,
35:31
SPEAKER_02: like,
35:31
SPEAKER_02: I know what I'm,
35:32
I know what I'm going to get now when I read a Griffin Grouch
35:35
piece in some ways,
35:36
SPEAKER_02: not like all the time,
35:37
SPEAKER_02: but like,
35:37
SPEAKER_02: I can kind of like,
35:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't know where you're going with certain things,
35:42
SPEAKER_02: but like,
35:42
SPEAKER_02: you know,
35:42
SPEAKER_02: I kind of,
35:43
SPEAKER_02: I'm,
35:43
SPEAKER_02: I'm gearing up for a certain thing.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: So what's that like morsel that you can't wait to like,
35:48
SPEAKER_02: like get at,
35:49
SPEAKER_02: but I'll then also deliver to the people that you hope read.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: So I,
35:54
SPEAKER_00: uh,
35:55
I actually don't love the posting of an article or getting
35:59
things published as much
36:01
SPEAKER_00: because,
36:01
SPEAKER_00: uh,
36:02
SPEAKER_00: the second it's like out there in the world,
36:04
it's no longer like a creation that you like can like work on
36:09
and move all the
36:10
SPEAKER_00: parts around.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: It's not just out there in the world.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: And so now it's victims to public, uh, reception.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:17
SPEAKER_00: Which I've always found to be the most difficult part about it.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: Because it's like, you know, you might get some hate on something.
36:24
Or,
36:24
I mean,
36:24
even worse than getting like a negative reaction is just
36:28
getting no reaction.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, oh man.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: It's just like a huge dopamine deficit or something like that.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: You'd rather it be visceral one way or the other.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
36:39
SPEAKER_00: It's like at least people know that they felt something,
36:41
SPEAKER_00: but if you're just like absolutely nothing happens with them whatsoever,
36:44
SPEAKER_00: it's just – puts you in this weird limbo.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the thing that gets me –
36:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: This is a huge side trail to take things down,
36:53
SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
36:54
I know that I'm supposed to write because people have given me
36:57
so many prophetic
36:58
SPEAKER_00: words in my life that I'm,
37:00
SPEAKER_00: this is just what I'm supposed to do.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: And so even though it's not like,
37:02
SPEAKER_00: I don't,
37:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm not banking on it,
37:05
SPEAKER_00: like paying the bills or anything like that.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: So I'm,
37:07
SPEAKER_00: but I just make sure that no matter what happens,
37:10
SPEAKER_00: I am writing because it's like,
37:11
SPEAKER_00: this is what I was called to do.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: Like I, I, people have told me, Hey, this, I've heard this from the Lord.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:18
If you want to receive it,
37:19
receive it,
37:20
but you are going to be a writer one day.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
37:22
SPEAKER_00: cool,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: that's great,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: but I'm going to get my PhD in this,
37:25
have a professor job or something like that because I'm not
37:28
sure if I can support a
37:29
SPEAKER_00: family off of like $6 a month off subsack or whatever.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: But also just having that knowledge of that calling,
37:39
just that understanding that other people in my life have
37:43
affirmed this over me.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: They believe that the Lord has spoken this over my life.
37:47
It gives me such an insane amount of pleasure to be able to get
37:50
up every morning
37:51
SPEAKER_00: before I go to my actual day job.
37:53
And to work on something,
37:55
to write something,
37:55
to contribute to something.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: It literally just feels like a kavod or like the weight of God's glory.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is such a pretentious example of this.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: I don't equate myself to Eric Liddell in any way.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: But Eric Liddell was the chariots of fire.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: What was it?
38:13
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I'm talking about?
38:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:15
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Chariots of Fire is the name of it, right?
38:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: It's a classic movie.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: That really famous song on the people running on the beach.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, perfect.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: I was just making sure that I got that right.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: My bad.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: So he had this thing where he's like – I mean he was a famous runner.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: He was one of the greatest runners of all time.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: He had this line where he's like, when I run, I feel God's pleasure.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: And me –
38:39
It just feels so lame to actually even make this comparison
38:41
even in the slightest.
38:42
But it's like when I write,
38:42
it's like I know that this is what I'm supposed to do.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: Like it just feels so good.
38:47
It feels like just my brain is on fire and I'm just so happy
38:50
and just in the
38:52
SPEAKER_00: moments or like flow or whatever you want to call it.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: But it is just so much fun.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: But then the posting it,
38:58
SPEAKER_00: then I get kind of sad because I'm like,
39:00
SPEAKER_00: ah,
39:00
SPEAKER_00: people didn't like it or they were mean about it in some way or another.
39:04
That is – well,
39:06
number one,
39:06
I think that's truly remarkable only because not –
39:13
I'll say it this way because I can relate only because I know
39:17
that I'm called to
39:18
SPEAKER_02: preach God's word.
39:20
And so the similar things that you're describing are things
39:23
that I sense or
39:25
SPEAKER_02: anticipate every Sunday.
39:27
There's this anxiety that's good when I'm getting ready to
39:32
preach because I'm excited.
39:34
It reminds me of when I was back in high school getting ready
39:37
to play in a basketball game.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm just like, yeah.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:39
SPEAKER_02: And I'm excited.
39:40
There's like this eager anxiety that's coursing because I can't
39:45
wait to bring this
39:47
SPEAKER_02: word to these people.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: And it's developed for me over time.
39:53
But the thing that gets me up is just that idea of how can I
39:58
always show people the
40:01
SPEAKER_02: certainty of what Christ did for them?
40:04
And like that's the same thing that drives like the things that
40:06
I write about too
40:07
is like I don't want anyone to go to my substack and go away
40:10
without hearing about
40:11
SPEAKER_02: Christ and what he did for them.
40:13
SPEAKER_02: Like that's always what I'm doing.
40:14
SPEAKER_02: And the same thing is happening when I preach too.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: Like that's why I'm really – you used the word pretentious.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: I can use the same word.
40:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of dogmatic.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: if you want to use that word in terms of the things I preach about,
40:28
it's always going to be driven back to that because I don't
40:32
want to sell people
40:33
short of what's going to actually give them relief or hope or
40:37
peace or joy or what
40:39
SPEAKER_02: is actually going to fill them with
40:41
SPEAKER_02: It's always Christ.
40:43
SPEAKER_02: He's always the answer.
40:44
SPEAKER_02: And so it's truly,
40:46
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
40:48
it's definitely a gift of God when that calling is kind of like
40:52
solidified in you
40:54
SPEAKER_02: and in your own brain.
40:55
And it's not like,
40:57
I don't know about you,
40:58
but I can't always necessarily point to a moment.
41:02
I don't know if I have a Damascus Road moment like Paul did
41:06
when I was like,
41:06
SPEAKER_02: man,
41:07
SPEAKER_02: I know I'm supposed to do this,
41:08
SPEAKER_02: but it's like,
41:09
SPEAKER_02: I was like,
41:11
SPEAKER_02: you can talk a little bit about this perhaps,
41:13
SPEAKER_02: but like,
41:14
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:14
as I was developing my own theological leanings and interests
41:18
and so on and so
41:19
SPEAKER_02: forth,
41:20
SPEAKER_02: there was like all these,
41:20
SPEAKER_02: I didn't always have an outlet for it.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: That's what,
41:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
41:24
got me to start writing online because I was looking for a way
41:28
to explore theology
41:30
SPEAKER_02: in a way that I could kind of just think out loud about it.
41:32
SPEAKER_02: And then I was – the more I did that,
41:34
the more I got into church ministry and church life and all
41:37
that kind of stuff.
41:38
SPEAKER_02: And that's where I am now where I've been patterning for six years.
41:40
And so that same idea is like – would you say that there was
41:44
like a moment or was
41:46
it something that kind of developed in you where like I know
41:48
I'm called to do this?
41:50
SPEAKER_00: Oh, man.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: But I'm also – I'm actually going to say it was a little bit of both.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: So I kind of – I felt called –
42:01
to write a book on new year's eve of 2019 i think it was and i
42:09
was like i just felt
42:10
like i really needed to write a book um so from that moment it
42:15
was like i need to
42:16
get serious about writing and it was very slow very lazy did
42:20
not make a lot of
42:21
SPEAKER_00: progress with it or anything like that
42:23
SPEAKER_00: But then when I,
42:25
SPEAKER_00: the week before I was,
42:27
SPEAKER_00: this is the big inciting,
42:29
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
42:29
SPEAKER_00: the big inciting incident,
42:31
SPEAKER_00: which is like a narrative plot line.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: This is the inciting incident.
42:34
SPEAKER_02: In the hero's journey, right?
42:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: So the week before my wife and I were going to get married,
42:40
SPEAKER_00: so this was May of 2021,
42:44
SPEAKER_00: my wife's dad,
42:45
SPEAKER_00: I married a PK,
42:46
SPEAKER_00: so the head pastor of our church called me to his office.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: And he told me that he had something for me.
42:53
SPEAKER_00: And he told me this story about how when my wife,
42:57
SPEAKER_00: Tiffany,
42:58
SPEAKER_00: was in high school,
43:00
SPEAKER_00: he was scrolling through eBay.
43:01
And my father-in-law,
43:03
he collects really nice pens,
43:05
like Mont Blanc pens and stuff like that.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: He was just very interested in that kind of stuff.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: He saw this pen that was made by Tiffany & Co.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: I think it was made during World War II or something like that.
43:19
And he felt that the Holy Spirit told him to buy that pen for
43:25
Tiffany's future
43:26
SPEAKER_00: husband because he was going to be a writer.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: And so the week before we got married, he gives me this pen.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: He's like,
43:34
you are going to be a writer and you should use this pen just
43:37
to write love notes
43:38
SPEAKER_00: to Tiffany.
43:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:39
And that was so shocking to me because I mean I was like 22 at
43:43
the time or something like that.
43:44
And the idea that just before that I had also started like
43:48
writing like slightly on
43:50
SPEAKER_00: there,
43:51
SPEAKER_00: it just – just the chances of that were just astronomical.
43:54
Like it just – it still blows my mind even as I'm just thinking
43:56
about it right now.
43:58
And so that was the big incident where I was like I actually
44:01
have to get serious about this.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: This is –
44:04
SPEAKER_00: it started turning into this thing where it's like,
44:06
SPEAKER_00: if I don't write,
44:07
then I felt like I was actually dishonoring this call that had
44:10
been placed on my
44:11
SPEAKER_00: life.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was the big one.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: And then a lot of just other tiny ones came after that.
44:17
But then slowly but surely,
44:18
um,
44:20
I got to a point where I'm just more like confident.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm, I'm more, I'm less insecure about it now.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm more just like, this is what I'm called to do.
44:27
And so I'm just going to do it and I'm going to have a lot of
44:30
joy in the process.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's, man, that's, that's awesome.
44:35
SPEAKER_02: What a great, like affirming event for you.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: But then also you talk about the process of writing.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: What is like,
44:44
SPEAKER_02: you don't have to necessarily share your whole process,
44:46
SPEAKER_02: but like,
44:46
SPEAKER_02: what's,
44:47
SPEAKER_02: what's your process when you're thinking about a piece like,
44:49
SPEAKER_02: you know,
44:50
you said you kind of take and use and remix maybe some of your
44:52
own stuff from your
44:54
SPEAKER_02: research,
44:54
SPEAKER_02: but like,
44:56
SPEAKER_02: is it just something that like sticks in your head,
44:57
like a song you can't get out of and you feel like I got to
44:59
write about this or
45:00
SPEAKER_02: like,
45:00
SPEAKER_02: how does that work?
45:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's 100%.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely it.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: It's...
45:07
i i can't remember who it was but there was this one film
45:09
director might have been
45:11
quentin tarantino or something like that but he was just
45:14
talking about his process
45:15
of making films and he was just saying uh the way that they
45:18
materialize is that
45:19
just something comes in their mind and it's like you cannot
45:22
stop thinking about
45:23
that until it's like out and so he would like draft his movie
45:26
and he's like okay
45:26
it's good it's there and now i can like stop thinking about it
45:29
and just kind of
45:29
move on and yeah so i mean that's kind of the way what i'm
45:32
thinking about just
45:32
SPEAKER_00: writing or um
45:34
SPEAKER_00: I just submitted a book proposal.
45:35
So hopefully I'll have one of those out sometime in the next
45:38
like year or two.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
45:40
SPEAKER_00: it's just like this idea where I'm like,
45:42
SPEAKER_00: I have something there and it like literally needs to come out.
45:46
And it's like,
45:46
I'm almost not going to be like happy or enjoy myself until I
45:50
like put it down.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, I don't need to get it down perfectly.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: But there's just some days where I'm like,
45:54
SPEAKER_00: if I don't get this full,
45:55
SPEAKER_00: just rough draft,
45:57
SPEAKER_00: just out,
45:58
SPEAKER_00: then I'm just going to feel agitated.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: Because there's just something about it where it's like,
46:01
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
46:01
SPEAKER_00: you just have to,
46:02
SPEAKER_00: you just have to do it.
46:04
and yeah i don't know i don't it's kind of hard to explain or
46:09
some people can't
46:09
relate to that they're just like i'm kind of strange or just
46:12
have odd probabilities
46:13
SPEAKER_00: or whatever but it's like yeah it's kind of how it works
46:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I totally relate.
46:18
There's way too many notes on my computer of just really
46:23
scatterbrained ideas where
46:24
SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
46:24
I know I had an idea there like maybe a month or two ago and I
46:28
go back to it and
46:28
SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
46:28
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure where I was going with that,
46:30
SPEAKER_02: but I know there was an idea there originally.
46:34
SPEAKER_00: There's a draft there somewhere.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
46:36
some of them just confuse me nowadays because I'll have this
46:39
idea where I'm like,
46:40
SPEAKER_00: this is going to be,
46:42
SPEAKER_00: it's like,
46:43
SPEAKER_00: this is going to be the best thing anyone's ever written.
46:46
And then I'll look at it like a year later and I'll just have
46:48
no idea what I was talking about.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: Here's a question.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: Have you ever written a piece like for Substack recently or whatever,
47:00
SPEAKER_02: and you decided not to publish it and you just deleted it totally?
47:05
SPEAKER_00: Do you mean fully deleted from even my Microsoft Word?
47:09
SPEAKER_02: No, no.
47:10
SPEAKER_02: It's still in your drafts folder, but you're not going to publish it.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: I was just curious.
47:15
SPEAKER_02: Because I've done that, and I was just curious if anyone else has.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: Usually when I get to the point of Substack,
47:23
SPEAKER_00: like being in there,
47:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
47:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty confident about it.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
47:26
SPEAKER_00: it has happened probably like three times,
47:28
SPEAKER_00: I would say,
47:28
SPEAKER_00: over the course of the past year.
47:30
but usually I'll stop myself before I get so far as to get too
47:34
far down the rabbit hole.
47:35
Once I get like formatted in pictures,
47:38
I almost feel like I'm in too deep and I have to go on.
47:41
SPEAKER_02: You can't turn back now.
47:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:44
SPEAKER_02: So let's pivot just a little bit.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: Talk about your journey of faith.
47:50
SPEAKER_02: You kind of mentioned a little bit about this,
47:51
SPEAKER_02: I think,
47:52
in your piece about John Mark Comer and how not only just
47:55
influential he was on
47:56
SPEAKER_02: you,
47:57
but just kind of like you were learning from him also as you
48:00
were kind of having
48:01
SPEAKER_02: your theology be developed and so on and so forth.
48:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:04
SPEAKER_02: Can I talk about that,
48:05
SPEAKER_02: how you were kind of your journey of faith,
48:07
how you were brought to Christianity and kind of like where you
48:12
are now as opposed
48:13
SPEAKER_02: to like maybe where you were like six years ago?
48:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I was raised in the church vaguely.
48:21
We went to big Sunday gatherings here and there,
48:25
I think Christmas and Easter.
48:27
SPEAKER_00: That was pretty standard.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: But we weren't really committed.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: I was never in youth group, had no Bible college or anything like that.
48:35
SPEAKER_00: I committed to atheism pretty hardcore when I was 13 or 14.
48:41
SPEAKER_00: Which I know is a weirdly young age to commit to something like that.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: But I just saw no visible...
48:48
no visible or even experiential validity in any of the
48:53
Christianity that I had seen
48:54
SPEAKER_00: up until that point.
48:55
SPEAKER_00: Like I had seen people in church talking about Jesus or like the,
48:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:00
SPEAKER_00: the Bible and stuff like that,
49:01
but I'd never seen anyone actually live it out in a way that
49:04
felt real or tangible
49:05
SPEAKER_00: or even something that was worth following in any sense.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: So I committed to atheism around the 13th or 14th.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: And then I got super into drugs and I got arrested a few times.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: And then I went to jail several times.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: And then on the last time that I was in jail,
49:20
a group of missionaries came into our jail cell and they did
49:25
this like church
49:26
SPEAKER_00: service,
49:26
this just like impromptu church service where they just sang
49:29
some worship songs on
49:29
SPEAKER_00: the acoustic guitar and then just gave this message just talking about,
49:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:35
SPEAKER_00: offering Jesus like –
49:37
you know a standard altar call essentially and so uh it just
49:42
hit me for the first
49:43
time that this was just real and it was just it just took that
49:46
moment of being like
49:47
okay i actually see some genuineness in these missionaries
49:50
they're giving up their
49:51
time their energy and their livelihood just to come in here and
49:55
present this gospel
49:56
to people who society would deem not worthy of receiving
50:00
anything right and so um i
50:02
SPEAKER_00: accepted it in that moment and then when i got out like
50:06
SPEAKER_00: Like 24 hours after that,
50:07
I joined a campus ministry and got plugged in and just
50:12
literally just got so
50:13
SPEAKER_00: devoted to it.
50:14
SPEAKER_00: Just an insane amount.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: I think I joined like three small groups.
50:17
SPEAKER_00: I was just in it like constantly,
50:20
SPEAKER_00: like every night of the week and just became so obsessed with it.
50:23
and i just knew that i was going to do ministry in some form
50:25
and so i kept up
50:28
ministry uh related aspirations for like four years i was doing
50:32
worship leading a
50:33
lot because i had a lot of background in music and then i moved
50:35
to los angeles for
50:37
a worship leader internship at this church and while i was
50:41
there at this church i
50:42
SPEAKER_00: strained my vocal cords beyond repair
50:45
SPEAKER_00: My voice,
50:45
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what it sounds like on a podcast,
50:47
SPEAKER_00: but it's much more gravelly and low than it used to be.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: I can't get it much.
50:52
The loudest that it's gotten on this podcast is as loud as I
50:54
can possibly make it in general.
50:57
SPEAKER_00: It just caps out at a certain point.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: I had a lot of just existential dread.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: I could not wrap my mind around why my vocal cords wouldn't heal.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: I went and saw like three ENT doctors about this and they were like,
51:14
SPEAKER_00: there's nothing wrong with them necessarily.
51:16
It just looks like you have the vocal cords of an 80-year-old
51:18
man rather than a
51:19
SPEAKER_00: 22-year-old person.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: Which was not what I wanted to hear.
51:24
I was hoping there could just be some surgery or some quick
51:26
fix,
51:26
but there wasn't.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: It's just how it is.
51:29
SPEAKER_00: I had these dreams of becoming a worship leader, totally fell apart.
51:34
SPEAKER_00: I had to move back home to Michigan.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: While I was there, I had a lot of doubt.
51:42
went through a very difficult times trying to reconcile like
51:44
the god who was loving
51:46
and just and uh fair and answered prayer and everything like
51:49
that with like the
51:51
current reality that i was living through yes so many people
51:54
have been through
51:54
worse situations too but i mean just in my short lifetime i was
51:58
like just a tough
51:59
SPEAKER_00: situation hard for me to make sense of but um
52:03
Over the course of just like a few months of just being back
52:05
home and just trying
52:06
SPEAKER_00: to figure out like how I could,
52:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
52:08
SPEAKER_00: still honor God with my abilities,
52:09
I started just getting a little bit more into kind of like the
52:13
teaching aspect of
52:14
SPEAKER_00: things,
52:15
SPEAKER_00: like trying to give more like sermons and talks.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: I even like taught a few classes at my local church.
52:19
SPEAKER_00: And then I did also hear about this guy named John Mark Comer,
52:23
SPEAKER_00: which that really blew my mind in a sense,
52:26
SPEAKER_00: because up until that point,
52:27
SPEAKER_00: I had not heard anything.
52:29
somebody who could articulate the christian faith in a way that
52:33
was dynamic and
52:35
transcended just the basic truths of the bible but it also
52:39
brought in like a
52:41
SPEAKER_00: cornucopia of all the different aspects of life in the world and academic
52:47
disciplines and put them all under one banner and showed this
52:50
beautiful beautiful
52:52
SPEAKER_00: potential that the gospel could have and
52:55
I remember that just blew my mind and it still blows my mind to
52:58
this day.
52:59
SPEAKER_00: People like John Mark Homer,
53:00
and there's tons of others who are doing very similar things to
53:03
him nowadays,
53:04
SPEAKER_00: but he was the first one that I remember ever hearing.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: And I just remember that blew my mind.
53:08
SPEAKER_00: And I was like,
53:10
SPEAKER_00: if that's even possible to teach like this,
53:12
SPEAKER_00: and that's even possible to communicate the gospel in a way that's
53:17
SPEAKER_00: because one of the things that blew my mind about him is like his books,
53:20
SPEAKER_00: like Ruth,
53:21
SPEAKER_00: Ruthless elimination of hurry.
53:22
We're getting read by secular people,
53:24
like people who were not even following Jesus.
53:26
They were like,
53:27
they were reading it as if it was actually going to help them.
53:29
SPEAKER_00: And so,
53:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it just blew my mind that that was impossible.
53:33
SPEAKER_00: And so I was like,
53:34
SPEAKER_00: if teaching like that or writing like that,
53:36
SPEAKER_00: communicating like that is even possible,
53:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm fine with not being a worship leader.
53:39
SPEAKER_00: I just want to pursue that.
53:42
SPEAKER_00: And so that's one of the reasons why I got into academia.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: That's one of the reasons why I started teaching more frequently.
53:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's one of the reasons why I got more into writing.
53:48
It was like I want to – it just painted a vision of something
53:52
that I didn't think
53:53
SPEAKER_00: was possible up until that point.
53:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
53:57
so it's fascinating how God uses these very diverse events in
54:04
your life to bring
54:05
SPEAKER_02: you to certain points or like waypoints.
54:07
SPEAKER_02: You can think about that like rock bottom moment when you're in jail,
54:13
SPEAKER_02: when you're incarcerated is kind of part of this.
54:17
SPEAKER_02: And like this is always the thing that is –
54:20
at once like fascinating but endlessly compelling which is just
54:23
the fact that we
54:25
can't always perceive where these sort of junctures are going
54:29
to be we can only
54:30
understand or perceive them in hindsight and like we in the
54:35
moment they feel awful
54:37
and horrible but in in the hindsight when we can look at them
54:41
in the aftermath we
54:42
SPEAKER_02: can understand that
54:43
SPEAKER_02: Even right there, there was goodness unfolding.
54:46
SPEAKER_02: There was grace unfolding right in front of you.
54:49
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's,
54:50
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
54:51
that's the kind of stuff that really like just gets me going
54:55
just because it's
54:56
amazing how God uses different events to bring people to that
55:00
same realization to
55:02
SPEAKER_02: where this,
55:04
SPEAKER_02: well,
55:04
SPEAKER_02: what we've been talking about,
55:05
SPEAKER_02: this story that God has told through the person of his son is,
55:10
is what brings no matter who you are it brings no matter who
55:13
you are no matter what
55:14
you've done no matter what background you have it brings you to
55:17
this moment of i'm
55:18
all you need and i'm all you can cling to and like what a great
55:22
what a great
55:23
testimony that is that you can share and and now you like the
55:27
the great platform
55:28
that that god has graced you with like now we can understand
55:31
like we can understand
55:33
what was happening maybe in some small way um and why he's
55:36
brought you to this
55:36
SPEAKER_02: point so they have like i'm yeah it's just awesome to hear
55:40
SPEAKER_02: you testify to that grace in your own life.
55:43
SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, man.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate that.
55:46
SPEAKER_00: And you're so right.
55:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:49
SPEAKER_02: And so let's go here too,
55:53
SPEAKER_02: because in your,
55:54
SPEAKER_02: so in your book,
55:56
SPEAKER_02: Do Not Lose Heart,
55:58
SPEAKER_02: which you can find on Amazon,
56:01
SPEAKER_02: you,
56:01
SPEAKER_02: you describe yourself as a Gen Zer.
56:03
SPEAKER_02: I don't really know like where the different generations go.
56:08
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think I'm a millennial.
56:10
SPEAKER_02: I was born in 1990.
56:11
SPEAKER_02: So I guess that makes me a little millennial.
56:12
SPEAKER_02: I don't really know all the things.
56:14
SPEAKER_02: Um,
56:16
SPEAKER_02: Okay,
56:17
SPEAKER_02: let's say you're representing Gen Z.
56:23
What would you say to the Church of the Millennials or the
56:26
Church of the Gen Xers?
56:28
What would you say to them in terms of how your generation's
56:33
view of faith and
56:34
SPEAKER_02: religion maybe is...
56:37
SPEAKER_02: It's the same, but it's also different.
56:39
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if this relates to John McComber per se,
56:42
but just how would you say that maybe there's – we don't have
56:46
to talk about the
56:46
SPEAKER_02: generational gap if you don't want to.
56:49
But how would you say maybe there's been a mark that's been
56:54
missed in terms of how
56:55
SPEAKER_02: this is communicated or how it could be communicated,
56:59
SPEAKER_02: if that makes sense?
57:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
57:01
so I would love to make a bunch of generalizations about how
57:07
past generations did
57:08
SPEAKER_00: church and everything like that,
57:09
SPEAKER_00: but I don't have a perfect grasp of that or anything like that.
57:13
But I will say something that I did notice even in my early
57:16
church experience,
57:17
SPEAKER_00: like after I had converted to Christianity when I was in early college,
57:21
SPEAKER_00: and even a little bit beyond that,
57:24
SPEAKER_00: one of the things I saw that characterized a lot of the
57:29
not necessarily millennial,
57:30
but definitely Gen X and baby boomer kind of generation of
57:33
church.
57:34
SPEAKER_00: I saw a lot of fear and paranoia and, um,
57:39
almost like a an us versus them or i think tim keller would
57:44
call it like christ
57:45
against culture like that kind of thing where it became this
57:49
sense of yes we'll go
57:51
to church we'll tithe but it's for the sake of like fortifying
57:54
a stronger church so
57:56
SPEAKER_00: that we can be a
58:01
SPEAKER_00: People within a larger political system or something like that.
58:05
SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily that everybody was always thinking in terms of like,
58:08
SPEAKER_00: let's elect this person into office or anything like that.
58:13
Lots of people in Christian churches are definitely political
58:15
or anything like
58:16
SPEAKER_00: that,
58:16
SPEAKER_00: but it's not like...
58:17
the most blatant things about everybody's personality in
58:20
general from what I've
58:21
SPEAKER_00: seen,
58:22
SPEAKER_00: even though it can be for a lot.
58:24
Um,
58:24
but it was like this fear and paranoia that almost like defined
58:28
their stance to everything.
58:30
SPEAKER_00: Whereas like, I can't watch that because I'm fearful of that.
58:35
SPEAKER_00: Or I,
58:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
58:36
I'm paranoid about like my neighbor because I'm not sure if
58:39
they have the same
58:40
SPEAKER_00: beliefs that I do,
58:41
SPEAKER_00: or they hung up one of those signs where,
58:43
SPEAKER_00: um,
58:44
I can't remember what they're called,
58:45
but it's like love is love and water is life.
58:48
SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I'm talking about?
58:49
SPEAKER_02: I think so.
58:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what they're called either.
58:53
SPEAKER_00: I only remember two of them.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure people will understand what I'm talking about.
59:00
SPEAKER_00: Just having a paranoia about that as opposed to...
59:04
realizing that we have access to the most joyful philosophical
59:08
system that's ever
59:08
been invented and the most amazing theological invitation that
59:12
we could ever fathom
59:13
in our wildest dreams and we'll never be able to fully fathom
59:16
it because we'll just
59:16
SPEAKER_00: be reveling in the joy of it for our entire existence for all of eternity
59:22
like that is what christianity is like it is for the sake of
59:27
creating a flourishing
59:29
community between god and man and eventually a new heavens and
59:32
a new earth right
59:33
like that is the eschatological vision the beatific vision and
59:37
that is like one of
59:38
these central theses of our faith it's one of the biggest parts
59:42
of our doctrine is
59:44
and so one of the things that i do see different within gen z
59:47
is they are so hungry
59:50
or excited about that like they are able to compartmentalize
59:55
some of the stuff
59:56
about like yes there are going to be people who are against us
59:59
there's going to be
1:00:00
division there's going to be hatred there's going to be people
1:00:02
who oppose us in
1:00:03
this way or another but rather than taking that and being like
1:00:07
having like a
1:00:07
fearful or stance that's like let's uh you know bear up our
1:00:11
walls and be protect
1:00:12
SPEAKER_00: ourselves and
1:00:14
coil ourselves into like a net of comfort away from anything
1:00:17
that might corrupt it.
1:00:18
I just see generally more openness to really seeing and
1:00:24
experiencing and living
1:00:25
SPEAKER_00: that life in the kingdom that Jesus offered,
1:00:27
like taking those promises and the ethics and the message of
1:00:31
the Sermon on the
1:00:32
Mount and actually just living into them and not just seeing
1:00:35
them as some far off
1:00:36
SPEAKER_00: ethic that's unrealizable.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that I see so much is just
1:00:43
like gen x not even just church or anything even beyond church
1:00:48
just like all of
1:00:49
like culture in general like most generations are dealing with
1:00:53
a failed vision of
1:00:54
happiness it's like they were told that if they you know make
1:00:57
enough money or they
1:00:58
get this job or they achieve this much or they get that wife or
1:01:01
they get that car
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: or they um climb the top of the corporate ladder or they you know
1:01:08
even if you don't even take like american uh values of success
1:01:13
or anything like
1:01:13
that but you some other people might be like no the point is
1:01:16
like mindfulness or
1:01:17
you know just being living a simple lifestyle or anything like
1:01:20
that so i mean all
1:01:22
of these different visions of happiness essentially fail like
1:01:24
they fall in on
1:01:25
themselves like secular people can be happy but i do not
1:01:28
believe that they can have
1:01:30
the extent of happiness that is available to us through the
1:01:33
gospel just because
1:01:33
SPEAKER_00: that's a foundational theological theme is that you know
1:01:37
SPEAKER_00: When we see the face of God,
1:01:39
SPEAKER_00: like it says in the last chapter of Revelation,
1:01:42
it's like one day we will see him face to face and he will wipe
1:01:44
away every tear
1:01:45
SPEAKER_00: from our eye.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: That is happiness.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_00: That is joy.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: And I believe that that is the fullest extent to it.
1:01:50
And so the secular culture in general or even just Christians
1:01:54
who are somewhat
1:01:55
SPEAKER_00: devoted but not really devoted to it.
1:01:57
They're just dealing with these so many different visions of
1:02:00
failed happiness and
1:02:01
they have all of these different pathways to what human
1:02:04
flourishing is because
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: that's one of the fundamental human questions.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: They're asking, how do I live a good life?
1:02:09
SPEAKER_00: How do I live a flourishing life?
1:02:11
SPEAKER_00: But everywhere they're going, it's failing.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_00: It's falling short.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: It's like the entire system is breaking and crumbling under them.
1:02:18
but then Christianity can come in and it can offer these things
1:02:21
and they can tell
1:02:22
SPEAKER_00: them,
1:02:23
SPEAKER_00: this is the way to a joyful life.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: This is the way to life to the full.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_00: And so,
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: sorry,
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm going on a little bit of tangent here,
1:02:31
SPEAKER_00: but I see Gen Z so much more open to that aspect of it.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: Like,
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: yes, all of these things are going to fail.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_00: I am not going to be happy if I have a million followers on Instagram.
1:02:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to be happy if I have a four-story home.
1:02:44
I'm not going to be happy if I have a nice car or if I have all
1:02:47
of these temporal
1:02:48
SPEAKER_00: objects that are going to promise fulfillment in an advertisement.
1:02:53
SPEAKER_00: All advertising in general,
1:02:54
SPEAKER_00: it's just trying to be like,
1:02:56
SPEAKER_00: if you buy this,
1:02:56
SPEAKER_00: you will be happy because it's appealing to that base instinct of
1:03:00
wanting to flourish wanting to live a good life but all those
1:03:04
things are empty and
1:03:04
eventually they will realize that to one extent or another so
1:03:08
gen z can just sort
1:03:09
of i don't know it's just what i see among my friends and among
1:03:12
other gen z writers
1:03:13
and speakers that i see is like they see no like all of those
1:03:17
things it's almost
1:03:18
like ecclesiastes in a sense where it's like you can toil and
1:03:21
you can work you can
1:03:22
SPEAKER_00: have all those things and that's fine but it's not going to fulfill you
1:03:26
and um yeah so anyways long tangent but i would just say gen z
1:03:30
loves joy they love
1:03:31
the joy aspect of theology i think that's such a good point
1:03:36
only because even if
1:03:37
like again we don't have to generalize or like paint with
1:03:40
really broad brushes but
1:03:42
like there is a sense like even i've felt this even if it
1:03:45
wasn't an explicit motive
1:03:48
SPEAKER_02: there's an implicit sort of
1:03:51
SPEAKER_02: maybe unintentional byproduct of the way in which the gospel sometimes
1:03:55
SPEAKER_02: communicated,
1:03:56
SPEAKER_02: which,
1:03:56
SPEAKER_02: as you kind of know,
1:03:57
SPEAKER_02: I liked your word,
1:03:58
it kind of incites paranoia or fear of this other person or
1:04:03
fear of this unknown
1:04:04
SPEAKER_02: event that's coming down the pike and all those sorts of things.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_02: And again,
1:04:09
SPEAKER_02: maybe it wasn't intentional,
1:04:10
SPEAKER_02: but that just brings this sense of dread and anxiety around
1:04:14
SPEAKER_02: Over what is about to occur, what may occur, whatever, what have you.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_02: And I think something that's like,
1:04:22
like definitely changed for me over the last several years is
1:04:24
just the certainty of
1:04:27
SPEAKER_02: Christ's work and what that offers the sinner.
1:04:32
SPEAKER_02: No matter where they are in their quote-unquote spiritual journey,
1:04:36
SPEAKER_02: I don't care your sanctification level.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't really matter to me.
1:04:40
The certainty of Christ and what he's done for you,
1:04:43
that is the heartbeat of joy and faith.
1:04:47
And that's kind of what Paul gets at in Philippians,
1:04:49
which is often called the joy letter.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_02: Paul writes,
1:04:53
SPEAKER_02: he talks about whether he's abounding or whether he's abased,
1:04:57
he's finding joy in Christ and finding all of what he needs in
1:05:04
this offer of what
1:05:06
SPEAKER_02: Christ has done for him.
1:05:07
SPEAKER_02: And everything else,
1:05:10
SPEAKER_02: to use the unchristian term,
1:05:12
SPEAKER_02: everything else is crap compared to what Christ has done for him.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_02: And I think that the certainty of that
1:05:21
SPEAKER_02: And declaring that in a way where people can actually say,
1:05:23
SPEAKER_02: this is not a maybe or a might be,
1:05:25
SPEAKER_02: or this is not something that I have to work my way into.
1:05:27
SPEAKER_02: No, this is certain for you already.
1:05:31
SPEAKER_02: And that's what the gospel offers.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_02: That to me is a great...
1:05:37
incentivizing message of joy which again is um something that i
1:05:43
i strive i won't
1:05:44
say always i'm successful and but i strive to do that when i'm
1:05:47
preaching or strive
1:05:48
to do that when i'm writing just because you know i wrote about
1:05:52
this recently just
1:05:53
the idea of like i feel like at least for me like i told you i
1:05:57
was born in 1990 and
1:05:59
now i'm going on my own tangent but sorry but like so i'm like
1:06:03
in this i'm in like
1:06:04
SPEAKER_02: i feel like this like weird
1:06:07
bridge generation where i knew what life was like before online
1:06:12
was everywhere and
1:06:13
now i also know what it's like when it's you can't even imagine
1:06:16
a world that's
1:06:17
different than that and i think that that's what allows i think
1:06:22
for me in many ways
1:06:23
to be really sympathetic to people that are a little bit
1:06:25
younger than me just
1:06:26
SPEAKER_02: because
1:06:27
SPEAKER_02: The world in which they've been growing up in,
1:06:29
SPEAKER_02: like,
1:06:30
SPEAKER_02: not just church related,
1:06:31
but just like society at large is just light years different
1:06:35
than the way even that
1:06:37
SPEAKER_02: I grew up.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, it's just totally light years different.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_02: I know we're not like breaking new ground by saying that, but like...
1:06:44
I think that that should inform the way in which we communicate
1:06:48
and the way in
1:06:48
SPEAKER_02: which we convey the truths that we hold dear.
1:06:52
SPEAKER_02: Not that we have to change them,
1:06:54
SPEAKER_02: but maybe sometimes the way in which the messaging of them,
1:06:58
SPEAKER_02: maybe it's a little bit different.
1:06:59
Or maybe the way we kind of attack or approach getting and
1:07:04
conveying this particular truth.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_02: Which is to say,
1:07:07
SPEAKER_02: like,
1:07:07
SPEAKER_02: I really resonate with what you're saying,
1:07:09
SPEAKER_02: because I think it's a word that's needed for the church,
1:07:13
SPEAKER_02: no matter what generation you belong to.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:07:22
SPEAKER_02: Well, what you said, you and a wife were big readers.
1:07:24
What's something you're reading right now that's really
1:07:27
capturing your attention?
1:07:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:07:29
SPEAKER_00: Oh, man.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I usually keep a rotation of like six books at the same time.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_00: Let me check.
1:07:36
SPEAKER_00: The fiction one I'm reading is called Paper Menagerie by Ken Liu.
1:07:42
SPEAKER_00: Really great book of short stories.
1:07:45
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I got the pile right next to me, so I'm looking at it.
1:07:48
Then I'm reading For the Life of the World by Miroslav Volf and
1:07:52
Matthew Croazman.
1:07:54
really actually pretty relevant to this conversation that we
1:07:57
were just having you
1:07:58
know it's trying to recapture a vision of theology as you know
1:08:02
like it's trying to
1:08:03
recapture a vision of theology as paving a way for a
1:08:07
flourishing life you know
1:08:08
thinking about god's mission as creating a new home and
1:08:12
inviting us into it and so
1:08:13
SPEAKER_00: trying to recapture an idea of theology as
1:08:17
SPEAKER_00: God inviting us into his joyful processes.
1:08:20
SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
1:08:21
SPEAKER_00: The Things of Earth by Joe Rigney.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_00: Really good.
1:08:25
If you're ever a Christian who's struggling with feeling guilty
1:08:28
about enjoying
1:08:29
SPEAKER_00: money or enjoying a nice vacation or a nice meal,
1:08:32
great book because it gives a good theology for how to enjoy
1:08:35
the things of the
1:08:36
SPEAKER_00: earth.
1:08:39
SPEAKER_00: A psychology book that I wasn't sure I would enjoy,
1:08:42
SPEAKER_00: but I'm actually enjoying it a lot,
1:08:43
SPEAKER_00: called Validation by Caroline Fleck.
1:08:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure as a man you can probably relate to this,
1:08:50
SPEAKER_00: but males tend to approach all problems with a problem-solving mindset,
1:08:57
SPEAKER_00: where it's like,
1:08:57
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:08:57
SPEAKER_00: you have a problem,
1:08:58
SPEAKER_00: let me try to solve it.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_00: It does not always go well with friends or with wives especially, right?
1:09:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:09:05
Very helpful resource for actually how to hear people's
1:09:08
problems and correspond in
1:09:11
SPEAKER_00: a way that's both loving and affirming.
1:09:13
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, just really helpful for emotional processes.
1:09:17
And I think,
1:09:18
yeah,
1:09:18
that's pretty much about it for right now for what I'm reading.
1:09:21
SPEAKER_02: That sounds like a good rotation.
1:09:22
SPEAKER_02: I'm not very disciplined.
1:09:24
I probably have more than a dozen books that are open in some
1:09:28
semblance of being
1:09:29
SPEAKER_02: completed,
1:09:29
SPEAKER_02: and it's really bad.
1:09:31
SPEAKER_02: I lose track at that point.
1:09:35
SPEAKER_02: I would too.
1:09:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm very anal about the notes that I take.
1:09:41
Um,
1:09:42
but I'm not very disciplined because I buy new books and I'm
1:09:44
like,
1:09:45
I gotta read that one.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh,
1:09:47
SPEAKER_02: and you know,
1:09:47
you know that it's like that meme where like the skeletons
1:09:50
under the pool and like
1:09:51
SPEAKER_02: that one's dying.
1:09:52
SPEAKER_02: That's where all my books that I should be reading.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_02: Those are the ones that are,
1:09:56
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:09:56
SPEAKER_02: I haven't read yet,
1:09:57
SPEAKER_02: but regardless,
1:09:58
SPEAKER_02: uh,
1:09:58
SPEAKER_02: where can people find you Griffin?
1:10:00
SPEAKER_02: Where's the best place to, um, to get your stuff or read your stuff?
1:10:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so definitely Substack, Reality Theology.
1:10:08
SPEAKER_00: It's pretty much the only social media that I'm active on.
1:10:11
You can follow me on Instagram if you want to see me post once
1:10:13
every six months.
1:10:15
It'll just be some post being like,
1:10:18
happy birthday to my wife or something like that.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, mainly Substack.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you can just follow me there.
1:10:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, go follow Griffin on Substack.
1:10:27
SPEAKER_02: He's a great read.
1:10:28
SPEAKER_02: Follow his notes.
1:10:29
He has always little quippy stuff that he posts there too,
1:10:33
so make sure you follow him.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_02: Griffin, it's so good to chat with you.
1:10:36
Thanks for taking your time out this evening,
1:10:38
and I'm looking forward to doing it again.
1:10:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Brad.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening.
1:10:44
SPEAKER_02: Hope you've been blessed by this episode.
1:10:45
SPEAKER_02: Make sure to go follow Griffin over on his Substack.
1:10:48
SPEAKER_02: Go follow him on Instagram as well.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_02: And if you're not already,
1:10:51
make sure to subscribe to the Ministry Minded Podcast on Apple
1:10:54
or Spotify or right
1:10:55
SPEAKER_02: here on Substack or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:10:58
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for all of your support, your encouragement.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_02: I know I'm always blessed when I hear about ways in which these episodes,
1:11:05
SPEAKER_02: these conversations have blessed you or encouraged you.
1:11:07
SPEAKER_02: So thanks so much for that.
1:11:07
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for commenting and listening.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_02: And I'll see you on the next episode.
1:11:11
SPEAKER_02: Blessings.