Latest / The Nonprofit Podcast / Ep 198| Community Care Beyond the 9 to 5 - Lessons for Nonprofits

Transcript

Ep 198| Community Care Beyond the 9 to 5 - Lessons for Nonprofits · The Nonprofit Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: So here's something we don't talk enough about.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: Most of us are living in two totally different modes.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Monday through Friday, you're in back-to-back meetings, following up with your donors, updating the CRM.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: You're blocking off Friday for grant writing.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Heck, in between all of that, you're still doing the actual program work.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're in this nice little cozy bubble.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: But then the weekend heads.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: You're showing up in the community, whether it's for advocacy, volunteer work, activism.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing is, nobody's tracking that.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: There's no report going to your ED.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Heck, your board has no idea this is even happening.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, that version of you, the one who notices what needs doing and quietly steps in, that is probably the whole reason you ended up in nonprofit work in the first place.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: So, what could we learn from how we actually take care of each other outside of work with no structure when nobody's looking?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: The Nonprofit Podcast, powered by DonorBucks.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Nonprofit Podcast.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Britt Stalker, fundraiser coach over here at DonorBox.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Each week we bring you practical information, clear insights, and inspiration to help you raise more, reach further, and take your nonprofit to the next level.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: When we talk about community, when we talk about philanthropy at work, it's easy to get lost in the day-to-day.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's kind of this endless need to prove impact.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: But we all know that.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: We don't just suddenly start caring just because we started work at a nonprofit.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: You brought everything with you on your first day of work.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Heck, your values, your instincts, the way you've always shown up for people.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: So often we're told, whether we tell it ourselves or we're someone else, to compartmentalize that very part of ourselves.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: But shouldn't this be the stuff that really counts?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: That invisible care that happens outside the nine to five nonprofit job that we can translate over to our professional lives.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: I am so excited to have Esther Se Hyung Li on the show today.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: She is the founder and principal of Elevate Philanthropy Consulting.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: She works with nonprofits, mutual aid groups, NGOs, where she connects strategy with actual community care, holding structure and humanity together.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: And really, it's just the kind of work that's always mattered, but honestly feels so important right now.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: What's even cooler about Esther is she is an amateur banjo player and a cat mom, which I have to say, Esther, just makes you so much cooler.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Esther, thanks so much for joining us on the pod today.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to have this conversation.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to emphasize again, amateur is the key word.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: I did take lessons, but definitely please do not ask me to actually play.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: I barely learned it.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, this is cool.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: But still amateur.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, Esther, you beat me to it.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: I uh no, I won't do that to you.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: So let's start here, right?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about this other type of care.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: When you hear phrases like caring for our neighbors or even that word philanthropy, what do you think that actually looks like for you in your real life, in your everyday life outside of outside of professional work?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I loved what you said in the intro about we didn't come into this work and then start caring about people.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: We likely were caring about people, and then it started to align, like, oh yeah, I want to do, I want to do more for my community.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And oh, I can have a career, and then, you know, that's the natural progression.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: When I think about caring for our neighbors or philanthropy, I think it's important to give you some context about my background.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm an immigrant, my family and I immigrated to Canada from Korea when I was four, um, and we moved to Calvary, Alberta, um, which had not many Koreans or Asian people in general.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so when I think about caring for our neighbors or philanthropy, I think my first point of real understanding is the church community we had.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: The trick Korean church was really huge in immigrant um communities.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: The way that we take care of each other, our elders, our kids, the way they helped us navigate being newcomers, immigrants to the country.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they helped us with admin pieces, or they helped us with um finding jobs, or they helped us with child care or just feeling connection and belonging.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: So when I think about these things, I often think about how my instances of care have never been formalized until I came into this sector.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: But when I think about caring for our neighbors, especially now, I actually think about how, especially post-pandemic, our idea of care and idea of care for our neighbors is really people that are in our orbit.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like when we think about caring for our neighbors, we need to think about it broadly.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't need to have a relationship with you per se to want to care for you.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And when I think about philanthropy, I think about how we've kind of limited this understanding to be formalized or structured, um, almost to a fault, almost to a dangerous degree.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I kind of want to bring it back to what does it look like to care for each other without having to talk about impact or having to show it?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, one of the things I remember we just had a snowstorm and I was just tempted to doom scroll.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then my neighbors, who are eight and nine, recruited me to build a snow fort outside.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: I went outside, I helped, and I said, I haven't built a snow fort in a while.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you want me to do?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, We don't know either, but we'll figure it out.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And something about the act of helping, something about the act of wanting to support them, something about showing up to a project that we didn't know what we were doing.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: All of those things kind of reminded me the fundamentals of like, this is what it means to care for your neighbors.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: You show up, you don't know what you're doing, you ask for help.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is kind of reminding me that it doesn't have to be in these formal spaces, just connecting with people.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we got other neighbors to come too.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what would have been a really sad Sunday of like doom scrolling actually turned into this like cute little moment where we made a snow fort, made snow angels, had hot chocolate, just talked for a bit about our day and heard about life updates and then went back.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of having that moment reminded me how much I'm lacking it and how much I have to be intentional about creating it.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think I'm very intentional about creating it because I know it's not naturally going to happen.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I have to be very thoughtful about that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want to re-emphasize it's like there's a level of comfort here that we need to let go, right?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's uncomfortable when we do acts of care that can't be.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think you talked about the word formalized or optimized, and we have to be uncomfortable with care that isn't formal and that can't be ministered.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's really just innate in us.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's always something that how communities work, right?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um and leads me to another question, Esther.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: You've spent so much time in these community spaces.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: They're not tied to a job, they're not tied to some prestigious title or advancement department.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: They're simply just spaces built around shared values.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what would you say is different about these unique spaces compared to the traditional nonprofit spaces that you that you see?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: I love this question because it's something I've been ruminating a lot about.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: So um, for those of you that uh don't know me or don't know the recent history of AFP Toronto, is that AFP Greater Toronto chapter underwent a public reckoning about anti-black racism.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I had basically an open secret for many years.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but my coach, Anika Allen, was uh one of the people that stepped up and said, I'm going to voice and testify about the harm that was done to me.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And she gathered people, um, and some of us knew each other, but most of us really didn't.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Only we only really under knew each other in relation to Anika.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: She gathered us and she said, I'm about to do something that's very risky.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to publicly testify about my experience and publish this.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And will you join me on it?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, really, the only thing that was gathering us was our connection to Anika, but also like a commitment to addressing anti-black racism in the philanthropic sector.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we were of um diverse age, all types of diversity, age, gender, race, seniority in the sector.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're just people that are connected to this.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um, when the group came together, she named us the co-conspirators.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And this work started with one supporting her and boosting her work and making sure that her story is shared far and wide.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it eventually came to a point where we were gathered and actually talked about this movement at AFP Icon on the biggest stage in fundraising and called to account and actually helped to um the our former board was dismantled.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: They all resigned, and then I was actually asked to join and help guide the new board and new chapter into a way that was actually reflective of the values it states.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it's kind of one of those moments of like, this wasn't a formal community space.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: This wasn't a nonprofit with a mission or a vision.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: This was one person saying, I am not going to stay silent about my harm.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to risk, um, risk a lot to share it.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Will you join me?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we're still an active community.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: We still care about these issues.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: But at the time that was happening, I was also on the community-centric fundraising global council.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it was kind of a moment of like movement building in spaces and kind of different levels of formalized ways, I guess.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it really did make me think about what is it that's different amongst these spaces versus the work I do versus an organization I partner with?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing that I thought about was I think that we forget that that is equally powerful.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think when we talk about philanthropy as a sector and as someone that's also obviously makes their living from this sector, when we participate in the nonprofit industrial conflicts, I think we sometimes minimize what is possible outside of structure or an industry or the sector.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that is really dangerous in times like this, actually.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think when we're talking about the issues and the urgency of the issues that we're facing, we need to be able to say we can do both.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: I do understand the importance of having formalized nonprofit structures, of having governance, of have being able to scale and be accountable to other institutions and your community.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: These things are all important.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not dismissing it, but I do think we need to really elevate the idea of we can start movements based on just us as neighbors, us as friends, us as people that didn't know each other but cared enough to also risk our careers at the time.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: It was really scary to come out publicly and undo all that because we care about this person, we care about these issues at hand.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for me, it was like we can learn this and see the trajectory of it.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a really powerful moment for me that made me reflect on the work I do, yes, but also the work that is possible for everyone, not just us in the sector.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: I love all of it.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: And just pulling out a couple of things that you've said and how I'm interpreting it is it's really kind of this permission to show up.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's peer-led, right?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: So there still is accountability there, but it's not accountability to funders, to boards, to this hierarchical layered power.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's really peer-driven.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think of working working in direct services in these other types of non-traditional spaces, the benefit is we're acting on things right in front of us and we're able to move resources quickly to the people who need them most instead of getting bogged down by those problems you're talking about, right?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're so right.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And when we think about that, I think another thing that I learned was I think one of the biggest lessons I've been having in being part of Kokan's Resident C CF Global Council at the time was just how much work we need to do in terms of conflict resolution.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean like an HR like mediated like conversation.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean like genuinely when you're talking about these issues and conflict has arisen in all, I mean, conflict will arise, and that's part of the work.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think something about being outside of a traditional structure made me really understand how critical understanding how to be in relationship with each other and understanding that we don't have to like each other to get this work going forward.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that I think was a really big lesson for me was how do we relate to each other and remember that building community is going to be inconvenient?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's going to have conflict arise.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, if we have the same mission and vision and we can work together towards that goal, so much is possible.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: So thinking about our listeners right now, like folks that are running on empty, they're given all that they can to their work.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: What's one mindset shift that you'd offer up that could help them sustain to be able to devote that whole level of care that happens outside of the nine to five?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: I first of all, for anyone that's leading a nonprofit or us working in it, yes, but especially leading it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to make sure that they know that we know how lonely it is to be a nonprofit leader.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a tough role in the sense of you're you feel like you don't have permission to share the true extent of how tired you are or how scared you are or like how anxious you are.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the first thing I'd say is I hope you have some space to be able to really unmask and really be honest about your feelings to yourself, to someone else, and just be.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first thing I want to say.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: But the second thing about the mindset shift, um, as someone that has been a nonprofit leader, having to think about the team and the organizational culture, one thing that I've definitely thought about a lot is what are you modeling?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think one time I had an ED ask me, you know, I'm not paying myself a salary, and they were a founder, I'm not paying myself a salary, I'm giving it all to my team.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I really want to make sure that they're okay before I am.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they were a woman of color.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, this is really amazing.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell how much you care for your team and how much you're pouring of yourself, but you do understand that you are modeling to your team, but also other women of color, EDs, and leaders, that it is okay to sacrifice your own well-being for the sake of your team.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want you to understand that that is going to be the message that's being communicated.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a hard message to take, but it's also something that I try and remind myself when I'm kind of verging on that martyr habit or like I have to sacrifice my whole self to take care of everybody else.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the legacy I want to lead.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the model I want to show.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I want to show that I can be rested and that's when I am my best self.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's when I can really imagine different solutions.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's when I can really think about and empathize with others.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if I'm not doing that, I don't think I'm actually the thoughtful leader that I want to be.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the mindset shift I would say is you have to think about what you're modeling and you have to actually ask, like, is this the leader that I want to be?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: And with modeling, we're so used to burnout being normalized as part of the work.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: We don't really see it for what it is, which is completely perverse, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we need to realize that the overfunctioning really is this like backward coping response to sustained pressure at work and then just the realities that the people that we're working with in community and serving are dealing with.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: One thing I wanted to add, Esther, too, if I may, is yes, we need to pare down and do less and partake in slower culture.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think that we cannot let fatigue become like a permanent reason to step back from community care.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Agree.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it can be a crutch where we know we're exhausted and we know we're tired.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: So we let it just become a permanent reality where we we get paralyzed and we don't do anything.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's such an excellent point.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that's where community really matters.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think when I talk about community, people go, oh, it's when you like take care of each other, like you help each other out.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's really one big important part of it.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: The other part is accountability.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you're really in community with people, and I'm talking community, like you have a shared value system or vision about justice or what equity looks like, these people are not going to let you hopefully retreat or like basically give an excuse for why they're not participating.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many ways to participate.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think that if you're isolated and you're, you know, only asking yourself and you have your own measure of I'm not going to do it, that's something you should trust.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I think when you are in communion with people, it also energizes you and encourages you to show up in ways that you wouldn't unfortunately do so for yourself.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I do love that response.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you're totally right to call out the culture of nonprofit sector, the martyr, the martyr tendency, the burnout being the norm.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really strange for our sector that we want visionaries and we want leaders that can imagine different worlds, that can imagine different solutions, and then we punish them and put them in the operational weeds, so to speak, and then say, like, actually, we're gonna sap you of any ability to do that.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really strange irony about our sector.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, fatigue is a real thing, burnout is a real thing.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think the systems that we have created, the culture that we have created in nonprofit really do make it so that we're exhausted and that we can't see beyond our own selves.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: But that's also the result of late-stage capitalism.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's something that we shouldn't individualize, but really think about wow, we need some systems changing.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: We need a culture shift.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I need people around me that are going to push me to get there.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I need people around me that are not gonna let me, you know, isolate and let me um kind of just fall into despair.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and that's really the risk of it all, that we fall into despair and then we don't act, which is exactly what you called out.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: We can't let that happen, especially now.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but to be able to access that joy, that relationship, that imagination, that really does fall on us actively building community around us that will hold us accountable, encourage us, inspire us, um, and really just help us be the aspirational selves we all want to be.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I know for sure, whoever you are, and whoever joined the sector, you have an aspiration of the world you want to live in.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: You have an aspiration of the person you want to be.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Find the people that will actually hold you to account for that and not let you sit back and say, I'm tired and I don't want to do it and make you want to show up.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: So powerful, Esther.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: All right, we we're hearing all of this.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now, for someone who's listening, they're nodding along, they say, okay, this totally makes perfect sense.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: What can we now?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: What can we do with it?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say there?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think what I would say, I was actually reading.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you haven't picked up any of Adrienne Marie Brown's work, I would highly recommend it.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm currently reading Pleasure Activism, and this came up yesterday.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is a reflection that I would encourage everybody to do, especially now.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she asks, Who have we been loving?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: The people who cross our physical or virtual paths, spark the flame of our interests, earn our devotion and respect and protection, our own family because blood, people we are committed to but don't like anymore.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: Have we been loving?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Defining love by obligation, celebrating love on externally marked holidays, keeping the realities of love behind closed doors, framing love as a fairy tale on social media, framing love as a product we give each other, framing love as a limited resource that gets swallowed and used up, tied in plastic when we're done and piled up out of sight, prioritizing love, romantic love over self, comrade, and friend love.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I would leave people with.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're thinking, I you understand, I understand this makes sense.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Think about the ways that you have thought about love as something that's finite, something that is limited, something that should only be deserved.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think when we talk about the work we're doing of justice and equity and change, I think we have to really think about how are we expanding our idea of who deserves our care.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really hard to think about in this moment in time, but it's actually the critical piece that we need to think about.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think we have to understand that we've been kind of conditioned to think of our love as something that's individualized, finite, precious, people only deserve it, something transactional.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're in this work because we care about our community.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Think about how we're defining that community and if it's expansive enough to address the issues that we actually care about.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing she says is shifting from individual transactions for self-care to collective transformation.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: We need to stop thinking about this work as something that I am doing for the sector or that my organization is doing for the sector and really think about this is what I want to do for the community.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: This is how I show love to my community, to the world, to the future that I want to be with.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I would start there as a point of reflection.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the actions will come with it.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: I love all of it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Can you can you say the name of that, the author of that?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, uh, it's Adrian Murray Brown.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's fabulous.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Esther, thanks so much for joining me on today's pod.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: We talk a lot about fatigue here on the podcast, exhaust exhaustion and burnout.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes we feel like we're a bit beating a drum a little bit too much, but they're still relevant for us to kind of move past them.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: We need to name them and get people in the right mindset.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: So that's exactly what you did.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for being here in community with me.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for the invitation and thank you for your thoughtful questions and responses.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, it's kind of like Gertrude Stein says um there's no such thing as repetition, it's emphasis.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So if fatigue and burnout is constantly being repeated, then we clearly need to talk about it.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if anybody's a nonprofit leader and you're feeling especially burnt out and alone and tired, like I think the first thing to do is not beat yourself up and understand that this is the systems we've created.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: But that means also that they're systems that we can dismantle and create new ones and we're gonna do it together.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: So don't grieve alone, don't punish yourself alone, like be with people that get it and want to care for you and also return that care to others, and we'll be better than we think we will be.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: And for all the listeners, we're gonna drop Esther's website, her LinkedIn bio, all of them in the show notes so you can connect with her and learn more about her work.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, one thing I really took from this conversation with Esther is so much care happens without permission or a formal plan, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody notices a need in their daily personal lives and we just step in.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: What if that instinct is the real work that you translate over to your day-to-day, your nine-to-five job?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: What might change if nonprofits paid attention to how people already show up for each other and we learn from that?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe this is exactly the type of thing we're worth noticing, especially as we're leaning into the new year.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks so much for hanging out with us on the Nonprofit Podcast.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Your work matters, and we are honored to support it.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: If this helped, share it with a friend, leave us a review, or find us on YouTube.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, take that first step and stay inspired.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: That warm feeling when you help someone, it's not just happiness, it's fulfillment.
• 24:05
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• 24:11
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• 24:14
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• 24:15
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