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Voddie Baucham - How Can Homosexuality Be Wrong if It Doesn't Harm Anyone x Greear, and Moore · Voddie Baucham Sermons

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: So, Russell, Bodie, a lot of Christians seem to lose
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: their footing when they're talking with a neighbor about homosexuality
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: and trying to explain why it's wrong. I mean, they
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: know how to quote maybe a couple Bible verses, but
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: explaining the wrongness of it, especially when the response is, well,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: it's not hurting anybody, so how could it be wrong
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: if it's not harming anybody? What would you guys say
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: to that?
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Well, I would say, first of all, you have to ask,
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: what is this for? What is sexuality for? And so
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: if we believe that God designed this, then that means
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: that there's a purpose to it. And the complementarity of
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: a man and a woman in a marriage relationship, fidelity,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: one flesh, that stands behind the whole reason for the
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: design of sexuality. It's not just an individual matter. It's
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: something that has to do with binding those two together
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: in connection with future generations and with the generations that
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: have come before. So it's kind of a big-picture discussion.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: about why do we even have sex? What's the purpose here?
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: And the other problem is what a lot of our
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: gay and lesbian neighbors assume is that we have marriage,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: and we're wanting to restrict this marriage, and we're not
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: wanting them to have it. So we're wanting to keep
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: something to ourselves. What we're saying is not we don't
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: want you to be able to get married. We're saying
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: the same-sex marriage is impossible based upon what sexuality and
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: what marriage is. So it's not that we're trying to
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: disappoint our neighbors. We're saying this is for the good
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: of human flourishing, and we love you. That's the reason
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: why not only do we say that we think there's
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: some restrictions for you, there's some restrictions on us in
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: terms of what this looks like.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: And there always have been. And I think that's an
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: important point. I think people also need to understand two things. One,
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: we say it's not harming anybody. It's me in my bedroom. Well,
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: the current debate about marriage explodes that myth. This is
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: not private. This is pressing upon culture as a whole.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: And because they framed it in civil rights language, it
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: means that this is the greatest farce ever. You can
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: go ahead and practice your religion. This has nothing to
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: do with you practicing your religion. If this is a
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: civil rights issue, and if us not doing weddings for
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: homosexuals or not hiring homosexuals becomes violating civil rights... then
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: it is not conceivable that the church will be unharmed
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: by this. So that myth has exploded. This is not private.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: This is public. The other thing is that all legal
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: decisions are based on principles and established precedent. And right
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: now the principle is sort of the Beatles mentality. All
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: you need is love. Well, if that's the case, if
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: marriage is based on popular opinion and who loves each other,
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: the 50-year-old man and the 12-year-old boy, the man and
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: his daughter, so on and so forth. And everybody said, oh,
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: red herring. No, not once the principle is established. So
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: this is not private, and it doesn't stop here.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we ought to even challenge the principle
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: that just because something doesn't harm, that that takes it
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: out of the realm of morality. If you cheat on
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: your wife... and she never finds out about it, and
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: you lie about.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: It, is it wrong?
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: And I think most people would say yes, because lying
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: is inherently wrong. And then the other thing is realizing
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: that a lot of times harm does not reveal itself immediately.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: If you are violent towards someone, that's an immediate effect.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: But you have to look at the long-term effect of
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: the harm. And for as long as there's been human history,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: you mentioned this, Vody, that the sanctuary into which families
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: have been brought forward has been a monogamous relationship between
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: two opposite genders where they learn to love the other.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: And that is what the Creator called marriage. You know,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: the Achilles heel right now of, I think, of the
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: homosexual so-called marriage debate is just the utter lack of monogamy.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: That's something that's not really in that. And so once
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: you start tearing down the otherness of marriage, the sanctuary
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: of monogamy, that lifelong faithfulness into which a family arises,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: the harmful effect may not be demonstrably immediate, but I
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: think you'll see it. And I think a lot of
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: surveys start to bear that out.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the things I think that we need
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: to recognize is that the language that's being used here
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: is language that we have already surrendered to. One of
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: the reasons why this is such a confusing thing for
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: a lot of evangelical teenagers... is because we have been
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: talking as though marriage is an individual matter between two people.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Our wedding ceremonies, couples are writing their own vows. They're
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: dictating the terms, and this is our big day. We're
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: celebrating our wedding. And that's not what marriage is in
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: a Christian context. And so even when for a long
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: time you've had in Christian churches couples who are newly
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: married and the people are coming by and saying, now
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: make sure. that you wait a long time before you
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: have children so that you're able to enjoy one another,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: as though you can't enjoy one another raising up children together. Well,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: you're already surrendering to the terms that the rest of
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: the culture says, well, if that's what marriage is, is
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: celebrating a relationship between two people. We have a relationship.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: Why shouldn't we do this? So I think we've got
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: to back up and reclaim in our own churches a longer,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: bigger definition of of what marriage is and start grounding
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: that back in Ephesians 5 rather than the ways that
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: we've come at it.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: So maybe related to this, what role does the church
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: have right now in speaking about this issue? I mean,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: there are some who say this discussion is lost. We
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: just need to let the world be the world and
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: we'll just focus on the church.
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: You know, the fact of the matter is we're in
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: this world, although we're not of this world. The fact
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: of the matter is the church... is the pillar and
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: the ground of truth. And we don't take the truth
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: and hide it under a bushel. That's not the church.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: We don't live these completely separate, sort of bifurcated lives
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: that we are the life of the world. We are
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: the salt that preserves. And so it's just completely, it's
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: unconceivable that we would not speak to this issue.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: I had a pastor tell me not long ago, he said,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: why don't we just say, let's, allow everybody to redefine
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: marriage on the outside, and we'll just maintain Christian marriage
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: on the inside of the church. And I said, well,
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: we tried that with the divorce culture. And what happens?
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: We wind up with churches that have said, we're just
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: going to allow this to take place, no-fault divorce on
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: the outside, not speak to it, and then speak to
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: it internally, and that collapses into the church. It transforms
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: the nature of the church, number one. Number two is
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: not loving to neighbors. We have an accountability to one another.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Divorce hurts kids, hurts families, hurts the entire social fabric.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: So does the expanding out of marriage to where marriage
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean anything anymore. I mean, there's a reason why
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: the state is involved in marriage in the first place.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: State doesn't have anything to do with registering people as friends.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have anything to do with those things. It
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: has an interest in male-female marriage because male-female marriage can
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: lead to something very dangerous for the state, and that
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: is children. And the state has to say, who is
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: the father of this child? Who's accountable for paying for
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: this child? That's the distinction there.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: And you think also the spiritual danger. I mean, just
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: thinking of the role of the church as priest in
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: the community. 1 Corinthians 6, those who practice such things
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This is, in many ways,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: a gospel issue because we fail to preach here. I
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: think of John the Baptist. I've thought about him and
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: this culture. You know, I mean, just think about the
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: absurdity of his death. And you can hear the critics
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: today say, well, see, that's what you get from messing
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: around in politics. Of course, here is going to sleep
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: with his brother's wife because they're the world. We got
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: the world.
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Why are you surprised? Right. Right. That just kills me.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: Why are you surprised?
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Jesus called him the greatest prophet that had ever lived,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: you know, up until his time.
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: And you think of.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Where is the spirit of John the Baptist who, are
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: we willing to, the spirit of John the Baptist's enemy,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: the spirit of John the Baptist's enemies doesn't work within
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: them today, but where is the John the Baptist in
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: our culture?
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: Let me say quickly, and a hearty amen to that,
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: but thank you for addressing what I think are two
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: core issues as it relates to responding to the culture.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: Because they say, on the one hand, Well, now you
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: guys are concerned, but nobody says anything about divorce. That's
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: a flat-out lie. I mean, we've been talking about this
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: for a long time, and there's a long paper trail
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: of us talking about this and dealing with this for
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: a long time. And the second thing is Christians, and
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: both of you have hit on this, Christians either saying, well,
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: why are you surprised? That's them. This is us. Or saying, well,
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: the state has no business and no place in marriage.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: And I think you just succinctly addressed that.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Nobody believes that. Unless you have children who are abandoned
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: on the side of the road and the state has
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: no interest. If that's the kind of world you want
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: to live in, then that's the case. But that's not
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: the world anyone wants to live in. I mean, not
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: even the Roman Empire was that bad off. And so
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: we have to have the state coming in, even just
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: at the level of adjudicating between people. What Solomon had
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: to do. Who do these babies belong to?
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: A woman who's abandoned. What do we do? Somebody's responsible
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: when a woman's abandoned. And that becomes a judicial issue there.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: And I think what people are trying to say is
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: the state doesn't have the authority to define marriage rights.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: And I'll go there, but they have to acknowledge what
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: the definition is.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: That's a good point. This is a discussion that needs
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: to happen. It's probably going to need to happen a
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: lot more on local church levels as people have got
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: to get aware of why this is wrong and what
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: it is. So I appreciate the wisdom you gentlemen shared.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Thank you.