Latest / WiseNoise: The Creative Practice Podcast / WN07: Freya Macleod on Island Roots & The Generalist Superpower
Transcript
- speaker-0: I was interested in the meaning behind the word museum. At that time, the V &A had just opened in Dundee and I was getting a bit involved with the V &A in different ways and was quite interested in what a museum could be and what it could mean in other ways. I guess I just really am interested in stories of the past to inform the futures. That was the whole idea. A museum of here is basically a place where you build a bit of... civic pride, but also you come up with ideas for the future of here. And I think I've always been like, like what I said earlier about design, I think it's quite an optimistic standpoint always to kind of think things can improve. And I suppose now that I look back at my fourth year project, I see it's like probably a bit political as well. I think, you know, aside from maybe party politics and stuff, I think just the meaning behind the fact that you can do something about place that you live in and get involved in it in a positive way. That's really what I was trying to invent, a new type of space that maybe doesn't currently exist. speaker-1: Hello, welcome to this seventh and final episode of the series of Wise Noise, podcast about creative practice with me, Pierso Halloran. I'm a graphic designer and founder of Wise Love Studio here in northeast of Scotland in a buoyant to be precise, which I'm out walking around just now. I don't have my little fancy little lav mic bit, so I'm just going direct voice note into the phone. But yeah, good to get out and about. The weather's been beautiful today. seven weeks ago, I was trudging around in the snow, recording the intro to the very first episode. So yeah, climbed out of the depths of winter and into spring in the course of the first series. Yeah, the guest this week. is Freya McLeod. Freya is a native of the Isle of Loos, a Leoshuk, and she is a visual designer. as you kind of find out, she's design of all aspects, you know, in such a short career, and she's kind of touched on many points. yeah, we discussed her Museum of Here project, which was the first thing. first piece of work I spotted by Freya at her graduation show in An Lantur in the Art Centre in Stornoway when I lived and worked there and yeah it knocked me out. I hope you'll... the video of this will be on YouTube if you want to actually look at some of the I get the proposal document from Freya, her final submission. her degree show and we have the visuals there as well but you'll get from the way Frey is talking like you know all aspects of this basically a rope factory in Dundee converted the rope factory and into this ⁓ whole new take on what a museum could be and like almost a new take in what public spaces could be and all the community engagement around that yeah it's just knock out every aspect of it ⁓ yeah But Frey is working, as I said, as a visual designer, and we kind of get stuck into that. And we talk about the importance of ⁓ Atlanta and growing up in, I mistakenly said a rural area, but yeah, as you said, Stornoway is quite culturally happening, even though it's on a rock in the Atlantic. ⁓ But yeah, it's great chat. Freya worked with me in Loom Graphics, so I really wanted to get Freya on. And it's really nice to get a younger perspective because Freya graduated through Covid-19 and we get some insight and perspective on that. But anyway, she's great and you're really going to enjoy this chat, I hope. Yeah, well, you know, I normally beg for all the follows and likes. and all the stuff for the algorithm boosts here, which you can totally do, but you know, kind of come to the end now. I'm tired of groveling. Yeah, learned a good few lessons along the way. Actually, do you know what? I'll save the debrief for the end of the podcast and just quickly let's get into the chat with Freya because she's ace. I don't know. But yeah, that's only bit of house adding in. But yeah. How are you? Last time I met you, we were at the Kayleigh night for INTL and it was quite a funny scene because there was like a, I think there was this Dutch couple that had absolutely no clue of what to do in the Kayleigh line up. So I had them kind of like, you know, completely clueless. And then I had you at the other side. of raging because it wasn't the correct form of the Kaley dances. So I had two extremes, two polar extremes, complete Kaley novice and someone who was complaining that it wasn't the correct ⁓ traditional version of the Kaley dance that we were doing. speaker-0: ⁓ my gosh, know. Well, like, funny thing about that was that Estonian couple we met that night, they were the ones I was chatting to outside anyway, like I invited them along to the park by the next night. So I like taught them properly. It was really nice. actually like got each other on a little sit down and I was like, they were really up for the Scottish experience. So we were like drinking Glenmore and G and like Caleigh dancing and stuff. So was actually really good crack. speaker-1: Yeah, amazing. that's like the proper bar is the proper island or bar at Glasgow is it not? speaker-0: Oh yeah, yeah. It's a triangle. The heart is a little bit... speaker-1: So he took the Estonians on a sort of islander night out in Glasgow then. speaker-0: Yeah, it was like a cultural tour. was good. speaker-1: Amazing. Do you get easily offended at Kayleys then if people aren't doing it as opposed to... Is that the mod upbringing in you? They've drilled you hard on the island. speaker-0: I guess it's just like you spend like every week PE during the winter doing Kaleigh dancing. So it's almost like in you the same way as your times table or something. I don't know why then it's like the easiest dances I think people struggle with. But no, I try and like enjoy the teaching process as well. I feel like yeah, it's like speaker-1: Yeah, ⁓ Part of you. Yeah, yeah. Well, I love it. I love how kind of hardcore about Kayleigh's islanders are. ⁓ But yeah. speaker-0: It's when Scottish people don't know it, that's when I get annoyed. Like, I don't mind when, like, the Europeans don't know, but it's like when Scottish people... speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. absolutely. They should teach in a school, should be a class. Applied Caeli at university. So, yeah, we also know each other because we work together at Lume and in Stortoway and you are a native Leoshuk, a native of the island of Luce. So I'm always impressed of anybody sort of taking up a career. ⁓ in design that comes from quite a rural background, whereas probably not a lot of places to sort of practice in those places, ⁓ have design careers. So do you want to tell me about like how, how you kind of chose design and you know, how that related to, ⁓ different that was coming from such a remote rural location? speaker-0: Yeah, I guess, yeah, growing up in Lewis on the island, I had a really lucky childhood, grew up in Stornoway. But to be honest, it was just such and you'll know yourself from living there, like, think there's a bit of a misconception that it is so rural and it is in a way, but it's super busy, super vibrant and contrary to like what people might think. I was part of like so many clubs, running clubs, swimming club and My favorite one was probably art club at Launther. So we had an art center. feel like the town itself, like growing up in Stornoway, it's kind of a bit of a halfway house between a rural childhood and actually quite like a, quite a cultural one. Like there was just always so much going on and yeah, like art club was my absolute favorite on Saturday morning at Launther. Like mom and dad always really encouraged that kind of engagement with things I enjoyed, which just means I had a very lucky childhood. Yeah, think like, I think an earliest memory was probably like an art club. We had like Moira and John for years, like they were our art club leaders and we kind of made these cardboard doll houses like over weeks and weeks. It was like this kind of project that we kept coming back to. And I just remember thinking like, this is the best thing I've ever done. Like, this is so cool. And like love the idea of model making and the freedom to like design a room and change. environment and like play with pattern and colour and ⁓ yeah so I just feel like I've got loads of I had so many creative opportunities growing up in Lewis and I don't know yeah just feel lucky. speaker-1: Well, I think that's true because I think obviously in light of recent troubles, well, constant troubles that unlanders in in terms of like an art centre on the island. That's the thing that struck me the importance of these venues and like that to kind of spark the creativity and imagination and the young people of the island, as well as like an entertainment venue and a place of culture. But I do think it's so vital. It's like, you know, it's not important. It's actually quite vital. And yeah, you kind of came full circle then as well because you exhibited at Atlanta. That's where first I saw your work was when you, your graduation show at Atlanta. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, totally. Like it was a really nice full circle moment actually, because we'd like go up to the main gallery in Launther when we were in art club when we were like five and six and seven to do kind of activities in there and then to get to actually exhibit on the like white walls was really cool. But we had to fight quite hard for that space. It was obviously like a bit of a freak last minute exhibition because of COVID pandemic and we kind of managed to squeeze in between two exhibitions and just ⁓ have a week. and it was like all these kind of art school art and design school graduates from around Lewis and Harris who'd gone off to various schools across Scotland. And it was really unique. I just don't know if we would have actually done that. We definitely would have done it if it wasn't for the pandemic. So, yeah, nice full circle moment for sure. And we all kind of tenuously probably did have themes of Lewis and in our work. Not even specifically, but it just felt like all our work was quite connected in a nice way. speaker-1: Yeah, I was really impressed and it was just nice to have to see the sort of talent that comes from sort of Lewis Harris because I think it was different disciplines but it was all really high quality ⁓ work. and really imaginative. you had Danielle McLeod, who's a fantastic photographer there, Rachel Kate McLeod, who I particularly enjoy coming from visual communications background and doing these kind of send ups of like the religious aspect of the island, which was really playful. Yeah. And then yourself, where your project was, I will come on to speak to that pretty soon. Museum of Here, your final year in degree show where you had this fantastic model kind of cut out. Yeah, and you spoke really well about the project. Yeah, so it was that, did you build up a confidence in speaking about your work through that exhibition? speaker-0: I so. think through COVID actually, we had to do quite a lot of online speaking. So in a way we had less in-person presentations and like final thesis type experiences, but they were obviously super mindful of that. So still made us make videos. And to be honest, in the age we're in now of like needing to kind of publish, publicize and promote your work online, it was quite good practice because we kind of had to create like short elevator pitch style videos and so all that stuff was quite good and then we tried to build a bit of like hype around the exhibition so we had quite like a vibrant social media account at the time and we were kind of all going on it and so yeah it was good to get practice about speaking about your work because it's just such an important skill and it was nice to like speak about Gaelic as well. speaker-1: Yeah, selling your work is a skill that doesn't get taught much in ⁓ universities. so graduating, it must have been quite surreal graduating during COVID then. Quite a struggle because you were just in your very final year project in 2020. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, just like I was absolutely loving Dundee, like I loved EGCAD and it was just such a perfect kind of stepping stone city. And I suppose everyone who graduated or was in uni around the time of the pandemic has a different experience. I count our blessings in my year because we'd had two and a half years of uninterrupted study and actually had a really normal kind of first, second and first half of third year. So it was really from halfway through third year onwards that it was affected. Yeah, I basically went home for the weekend. was my mom's 60th birthday and then kind of never went back to uni for like six months. Wow. And so it was like, you know, all your stuff is in the studio. Like I didn't really have time to pick things up because you couldn't travel. So it was really, really surreal. And I was just loving the whole experience. But I think I was lucky because we'd set that foundation already, whereas I know others who went in in first year during the pandemic and just never formed social connections and stuff. And so, yeah, I was at home for third year and fourth year and then got back to back to Dundee for the end of it. But I was kind of like model making in my dad's garage and there was lots of really positive bits about it. Like ⁓ I was just lucky to be super safe up in Storraway and ⁓ made the best out of it. So, yeah. speaker-1: But yeah, know you're speaking of your dad there. I know your dad was in charge of the Castle project with the council. So did that in a way, did that kind of reform? I know that you were interested in, like a lot of people do get interested in art and never kind of veer over to design where I think you spoke about the functionality. there, whereas taking that creativity and using it in a functional, practical way, was that kind of influenced by your dad and you were probably around the sort of rebuild and the architectural side of that project, speaker-0: ⁓ 100%. Yeah, like I was just so lucky to be like, I grew up in a family that really valued design. Like, it's quite a unique thing. I think I realize that now. But I think I was always more on the design and the functionality side of like, my brain is quite, I like like solving problems. And I've always liked inventing things. And I think even from being a wee girl, like, my dad's really creative anyway, even though his job was more on the economic development side of the Castle project, he's fascinated by like, building and that castle project was my whole childhood really watching that kind of go from a room into a really public space. So it definitely influenced me. just remember like dad giving me lots of like tools from the garage and I was always just making things and my uncle's an architect and like my auntie is a dressmaker. like a fashion designer. I always had like really quite inspiring kind of people. I guess I just really looked up to them and was like that looks cool. I'd love to do that. speaker-1: Yeah, it makes such a difference to actually know people that are making a living or working in those fields that you kind of go, oh, that's an actual job. That becomes real as a kind of career prospect then, know. speaker-0: Yeah, it was just thought like, I think I always just thought it was so cool to be able to like design something that didn't exist. And then it would be like, I remember looking at my uncle's sketchup models, like he'd come up and do a bit of work. And I'd see like, kind of 3d models somewhere that didn't exist yet. And then a few months later, we'd kind of go there. And just seeing that it's quite an optimistic, I think it's a really like positive career type to have because it's like, you're making something and you're changing states and you're kind of going somewhere. So yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, you're fundamentally trying to improve ⁓ things, which fundamentally improve society as a whole, know, the better you design things, the better people will live their lives, you know, generally. speaker-0: Yeah, that was just always the thing. speaker-1: Yeah, so I spoke about the Museum of Here ⁓ project. I'm going to share that project if I can get the Chrome tab up Museum of Here. So what I'll do is I'll go through this sort of magazine bit first. And yeah, just talk me through this. This was your year end project ⁓ based on the rope factory in Dundee. What I really love about this project and is the fact that you really cover a lot of how it kind of goes back to really strong community engagement on top of it all, not just the sort of redesign, repurposing of the building, but how you've kind of brought it in as a, yeah, that community element is quite strong in there. speaker-0: Yeah, completely. I think I realized more and more throughout my uni years, like I was really lucky to be super inspired by my lecturers, like our course, Interior and Environmental Design, it was basically like places, spaces, people and that kind of intersection. And I think sometimes there can be a bit of a misconception around interior design that even I had it, like I remember looking at the course at first and thinking like, I don't want to be an interior designer. And I don't know why I had this like, I don't know, like. a misunderstanding of what that really meant. But I think what I became most interested in was kind of that urban scale of design at the same time, like how do you involve people in the decisions that get made and ultimately affect where they are left and end up with. So I had an amazing lecturer like Lindsay McIntosh and she taught us all about co-design principles and how you can kind of take people along with you on a design journey and end up with something much richer at the end. That's what I was sure I wanted to do in my final year project. At the same time, kind of looking at a really fascinating piece of urban fabric, like a rope factory, which I just found like actually just behind my flat. on this visual, like I lived on Belfield Avenue, which is kind of where the sentence is. And I kind of hopped the wall, discovered this like old kind of arched wall and wondered like, what's that? And then found out it was a long 150 meter. long rope factory so it was all just kind of like quite same with this but yeah it was cool. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I just love the fact that like, obviously, a factory like that needs to be like really, really long to make ropes. Yeah. So yeah, fascinating. speaker-0: Go up and down the factory on these trams. They'd have train tracks inside and the staff would actually be going up and down, twisting the rope by hand. So was all just really fascinating to find out about. You don't think about how rope was actually made, but it was the length of the street. speaker-1: Yeah, it's all AI ropes now. They just get AI to make the ropes, so yeah. speaker-0: No! Yeah, I know. speaker-1: No, but it's a fascinating. speaker-0: I think it's so special because everything is so, yeah, it's just like tangible. speaker-1: Yeah So yeah, so this expressive development part, so this is like what we here. speaker-0: We were really encouraged to make like concept diagrams and concept models. So it wasn't just about like this final 3D form, but really it was about like, how do you express your ideas graphically? And I guess we'll come on to that and how I kind of ended up working for you at Lumen. But I think our course was really great and interdisciplinary because as much as it was about designing a lovely space at the end, it was about like communicating ideas and stories. So I was just, I loved that kind of eking out bits of like the history and the production side of things and then kind of making these concept models. So this one, the walk and wind was like, kind of, I was designing a new kind of street and cycle way to go over the top of it. And I kind of thought like maybe they can twist around each other as if they're kind of being like. speaker-1: like ropes or calling back to the site history, speaker-0: So that was like, I think my lecturer, Gary, like he called it ⁓ like an emotive model, like you're trying to say something and it's not really like a physical thing, but it's just an idea that you're trying to communicate. And then there was lots of materiality stuff like brick making. speaker-1: Yeah, and you actually sort of went made some bricks out of like recycled clay. speaker-0: Yeah, like I tried. It was pretty complicated. I'm quite guilty for trying to take on quite a lot in one project. I was basically just really interested in the reuse of urban fabric and how we can keep writing stories on top of old places. I just wanted to do an example of that where you start to reshape a brick and maybe these old bricks are used in the new building. Yeah. using some kind of brick pozzolan, think it was called and just experimenting with color and ⁓ making a kind of site model out of that kind of chemical reaction ⁓ with a lot of help from Malcolm there in the workshop. speaker-1: Nice one. But I love that you kind of got hands on in the actual material as well. speaker-0: I think totally my advice to anyone at art school or anything is just to be in these workshops as much as possible because they're kind of free to use and at what other time in your life are you going to be able to just do as much we, you know. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You have to take full advantage of those educational facilities. ⁓ Yeah, so I like the from the final design proposals then it was it's a kind of community space essentially, and that would different stages to it or different compartments to it. Yeah. speaker-0: So I was interested in the meaning behind the word museum. At that time, the V &A had just opened in Dundee. And I was getting a bit involved with the V &A in different ways and was quite interested in what a museum could be and what it could mean in other ways. I guess I just really am interested in stories of the past to inform the future. So that was the whole idea. Museum of Here is basically a place where you build a bit of civic pride, but also you come up with ideas. for the future of here. And I think ⁓ I've always been like, like what I said earlier about design, I think it's quite an optimistic standpoint always to kind of think things can improve. And I suppose now that I look back at my fourth year project, I see it's like probably a bit political as well. Like, ⁓ I think, you know, aside from maybe party politics and stuff, I think just the meaning behind the fact that you can do something about. and the place that you live in and get involved in it in a positive way. Like that's really what I was trying. I was trying to invent a new type of space that maybe doesn't currently exist. And so I was looking at like citizens assemblies and like this space and it was called the reading room. And I named them all after like old kind of more stuffy type spaces and museums. But the room was kind of about like getting people together and like having to be and analyzing stuff. just had fun with like the meaning behind words. And then there was like a workshop where you could come in and fix your like, broken furniture or like, yeah, but like a tool library, I suppose. And yeah, just kind of around with different. And it was kind of like a community space, I suppose. And then there will be like an artist artist in red residency for each. So imagine you could have a museum of here. everywhere. then you all, every place always has this artist in residence who's kind of pondering like the big questions. And then there's the really kind of hands on stuff, like, yeah, the archives, it was kind of like a place where people could come and open up the drawers and look at old maps and ⁓ like kids could come and do like an art club. And ⁓ so then I was making these like spatial narrative collages to kind of combine these old ideas that we've always had through museums with some new ideas like plastering on top and like, ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah, I love how you're taking the sort of stuffy notions of museums and kind of bringing them more to life and making it like a living breathing kind of interactive space, rather than just yeah, something you kind of stand there and look at old paintings or something, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, I guess like in this museum there was kind of, there's no artifacts really, like it was just to put a city more on display. maybe like, you know, people could come in and, ⁓ I don't know, teach each other things or just like, you put the city on display in some way. So I went into quite a lot of like the manifesto behind that as well. And I had a really good tutorial with someone who advised me to make a manifesto because it felt like it was almost this like... concept as well as it was this one, what space and rope works, kind of maybe could be everywhere and could be anywhere. ⁓ yeah, so like, yeah, was just participation. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, so the strength of the idea could be it's not just a it goes beyond just this actual spaces, the strength of the idea is to have this type of new way of thinking about museums that could be transposed to other places and cities and etc. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, completely. So like, yeah, one piece of it, I did like piece of community engagement as part of it, which was like, I sent out some boxes and kind of did a bit of an experiment where lots of people kind of fed in some of their ideas about the future of like the West End of Dundee. And it was quite like, we then like exhibited it on the door of the actual rope works. just basically, it was like a pilot for what the museum of here would be. Like I just wanted to do a mini. pilot project. speaker-1: Yeah, have the wee video here. But yeah, because that's what I mean, is you really took it to the people in that respect and got some community involvement in terms of telling what they wanted or what they needed from the space, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, totally. Like, yeah, so that's the front of the of the building there. And it's kind of showing basically this exhibition we had in a time where you weren't really able to do things indoors. So it was kind of off the book. It was it was good. And people were walking past and they could like submit their ideas. And yeah, it was fun. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, great. And you have your little museum of hearstand and everything. speaker-0: Yeah, like I made this chimney and the chimney was meant to represent the fact that it was kind of like a factory and things were being made. Yeah, it's funny looking back, like so idealistic myself, whatever, that's what it's for, isn't it, a degree, you just want to like think big and... speaker-1: Of course. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's like, know, if if all if budget constraints or whatever, you don't even have to think about those and you're just kind of look, here's the massive big idea. And if you got all green lights and all the funding you needed, here's what you could do type of thing. So it's like, you know, that's hardly ever going to happen. So as you say there about like using the workshops, you kind of have to do that and just show. ⁓ Yeah, what what you would do if like, you know, if your imagination was let run wild. And yeah, think it's a fabulous, fabulous project. I think there, as you said, it's, there's many kind of strains in terms of design, because like, you know, obviously, there's ⁓ architectural ⁓ and interior design. but there's like visual communication, as you were saying there as well, which kind of it's That's kind of slightly more the avenue that you took vocationally then after college. speaker-0: Yeah, totally. like, ⁓ I think kind of, ⁓ like I said about the course and how like a lot of it was communicating these ideas, so was coming up with them and then building them on SketchUp. But then it was like graphically communicating them. And I think it was something that I was always doing with a purpose. So I was never like just creating graphics for the... But I suppose that's what every graphic designer does really in practice. So although I don't feel formally trained as a graphic designer, kind of like, plants my luck at applying for Lume after I graduated. And yeah, I think I guess I had enough of my portfolio to kind of like, show I could get a studio role with yourself, which was amazing. And I had had some like internships during uni at Acker, but so I'd done like layouts and in design and kind of infographic type stuff. I think it was like just a bit of an organic way into that that industry. And yeah, just like loved the stuff we worked on at Loom. I think the combination between getting to move home and have a design job was something I never expected. Like it was really cool. speaker-1: Yeah, I think it worked out really well because one thing about running a design studio in a remote location is the job pool is quite small, know, getting people who are qualified that live in the area. So I was totally up for the job being like entirely remote. But then when you were sort of living there, I was like, well, this is excellent because I much prefer having somebody there and that you can actually just because it's like really hard, I think, just to kind of bundle up a project and just go, here you go, I'll come back in four hours and let's talk about it or whatever. You know, even if you're, I kind of like having somebody there and you can kind of just flag up issues as you kind of go and discuss things and just like, you know, being in the same space. So I think that was a total winner for me. And obviously after seeing your exhibition project in Atlanta, like I know it was like, it wasn't wholly a graphic design thing, but I could see straight away that you had like a fantastic eye for saying, and ⁓ even in kind of what you were writing in, how you wrote about design was really, ⁓ you can get a sense there as well was really optimistic. And it was really, you know, you really valued ⁓ design in itself. So I could just tell straight away that it would be a good fit and just like even the way you had laid out the magazine and the book that there was like, okay, you got some sense of like graphics space and stuff like that, you know, it's a really nice magazine. So I was just like, yeah. And so I think, yeah, that worked out really well for both of us, I think. And speaker-0: a dream first job. And I'd always like admired your work, I think, and kind of like I'd gone away to Dundee. And it must have been at that point, you'd moved to Lewis. And I was kind of like, this is cool design studio in a way like this. Or Babel. is cool. And I remember loving these kind of 3D letters is like that was the first thing I'd seen of yours was like the ⁓ kind of 3D spaces and it was really unusual and exciting to have like, really, really high quality design studio working from Lewis, it wasn't something I'd really... ⁓ Yeah, nice and serendipitous, I think, timing-wise. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, I didn't mean for this to like, normally this is like the kind of bit where I just like praise the guest unconditionally, but like I'm not comfortable with the light being shine on me now, to be honest. I'm not good with sincerity generally, Freya. Yeah, no, it was great. But I don't know how you felt in terms of like a first job in terms of ⁓ speaker-0: You're just takin'. speaker-1: Because one of my experiences of my first job was I spoke about this on a podcast before, but ⁓ it's the thing where you're in this bubble, as you said, there where you're kind of dreaming big dreams in college or whatever. And then you kind of get hit with the, know, I need a flyer done by 12 o'clock kind of thing. there's like, wait, I need to research and I need to mood board and I need to. No, no, no. speaker-0: I think you had a good amount of patience for me in that regard. And I think that's just something you kind of work through in time, isn't it? You come out of uni and you have months to research your concept before you even put pen to paper. I think that's maybe a bit of a problem with like, it wasn't until fourth year that one of our lecturers really put down the law of just start designing stuff, just start, please, because it's like, we can talk and talk. I think ⁓ that's just a great thing you learn in industry. But I also really enjoyed as part of Loom, like, you know, the way you and Callum would work, where you both go off and create like a concept and then come together. And I think I kind of got into the swing eventually of like seeing how that worked from you guys and then moving up into like maybe being a wee bit more involved with the design side of things. guess, yeah, I was still kind of in my concept phase. it's a learning curve, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad one. Like, yeah. speaker-1: No, no, it's not. as you said, I do kind of miss having people working with people because I was kind of there like that way of I did find it was really healthy for to like, kind of go off and create like a concept each and then kind of come back and I'd be like, okay, I'm just going to steal your one and pretend it's mine and take all the credit for it. That was how I operated. But no, in some ways and you know, freelance lifestyle and being a solo operator is many advantages, but I do miss that kind of aspect of being in a team. But then you went off and you ditched me and then you went to ⁓ some ⁓ kind of trendy Glasgow studio, although still heavily kind of connected to the Highlands and Islands. ⁓ speaker-0: It's just attracted to those bright lights, I know. speaker-1: Yeah, I know. I couldn't compete with the nightlife options that they were offering. So you worked with Lateral North and we're going to talk about one of the projects that you heavily involved with last year. speaker-0: Yeah, no, sounds good. Like Shinty's story. This was very kind of, yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, so so Laval North at first, so these guys, have many strings to the bow in terms of their services, but exhibitions and filmmaking are kind of their main bag. speaker-0: Yeah, totally. I was lucky to be part of a very talented team in latter north for just short of three years, two and a half years maybe. And they're very much, I think, describe themselves as creative storytellers. So when I was there, we were working on things from exhibition design to installations. So from 3D to 2D, it was quite dynamic. We were an interdisciplinary team and there's like filmmaking, virtual reality to graphic design and interior designers and like the two directors are from an architecture background. So it was really kind of like a great example of an interdisciplinary studio for sure. speaker-1: And this Shinty project, sounds like it was right up the studio street in terms of like, taking all those skills and combining them. ⁓ But yeah, do want to talk about that? think you're heavily involved in the interpretation side of the exhibition. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, totally. ⁓ yeah, like an exhibition is a complex beast, I suppose. There's lots of different facets involved. the element that I was most involved with with Shinty was the kind of curation, story gathering, interpretation journey that a visitor went on. And I guess throughout my time, I realized I probably had quite a lot of strengths in that area and was lucky to get to kind of test that in this exhibition because it kind of needed a lot of... lot of story pooling together. yeah, it was like a dream project for the team because they had a lot of connections to Shinty and the Highlands already. But also, like for me, it was a dream project because it connects so many of my interests, like the Gaildom, social history, storytelling, Gaelic. Kind of, it was awesome. So it's in Bach Park. It's the new kind of home of Shinty in Inverness. And it was a new build. So we had like kind of a whole first floor of or ground floor of this new build to tell the story of Shinty. ⁓ Shinty is ⁓ Scotland's community sport, it resembles hockey if people haven't heard of it, except it's got some key differences. Shinty was played for hundreds of years across the Highlands and ⁓ probably before football was Scotland's biggest and national ⁓ game. But I really knew so little about it before we started and my role was just finding out as much about these stories as possible and helping shape this visitor journey. So there's so much to consider when it comes to that and I just learned a huge, huge amount. Lucky that it was so fascinating. So yeah, I guess some of the things that were most important to this exhibition design was the age group. that we're aiming at, like the reading age kind of has to be about 13. So when you're doing an exhibition, you have to kind of get that perfect balance between ⁓ there being enough for a novice who's never ever heard of Shinty all the way to there being enough for Shinty experts and like total like pillars of the community to still think it's like a rich representation of the sport. ⁓ So that was something I worked closely with. ⁓ interpretation writer, I was kind of helping her kind of find content that matched up. And then she would kind of use her amazing language skills to bring that to life. And the Gaelic side of interpretation was really amazing as well. It was an honor to work with some experts on this, on the subject of Shinti and the kind of intangible cultural heritage that goes alongside the sport. You know, it's so much more than a sport to people who are involved in it. It's just a way of life. And there's songs and poetry about it. There's It's kind of followed a similar trajectory to like, Gaelic's rise and decline at different times in history. So it was just fascinating. speaker-1: Yeah, well, it's a yeah, no, absolutely. I know from working in the Science Centre about like, you know, the exhibitions team there and those levels of interpretation, as you said, you know, you have to sort of have like a beginner intermediate advanced kind of almost levels of interpretation where, yeah, that you can get engagement from all ages and all types, you know. It's great. Fascinating as a juggle and the sort of journey you have to take people on is quite important as well. know, from the moment they kind of go in the door to like how they kind of move around the actual space is quite important in that respect. speaker-0: 100%. Like a lot of this was done very much to the kind of other 3D and 2D designers involved in the project that I was lucky to work with. So it was kind of like they were, we were working with them as a team to design like an experience that could be split into like four distinct sections. So there was like origins, community, competition and future. And each room was to kind of feel quite distinctly different from the next, but design wise, it all had to feel cohesive and So like color and use of imagery was really important. So, yeah, the designer is just such a brilliant job on that side of things. And ⁓ yeah, we all just really had to like focus on our own kind of area of focus and it all came together in the end. there was just so, there's so much work involved in something like this. It's just incredible. ⁓ So yeah, like everything from like finding amazing images as wall wraps. ⁓ So yeah, think one of my most important jobs was to kind of make sure that there were stories for everyone. And one story that was really difficult to kind of represent, but really important was the story of women in the history of Shinty. And I just like really enjoyed trying to find these kind of nuggets of stories that to make sure there was representation all the way from the beginning and not just in the future section. So it's kind of like working with. in Ballot or the archive centers to just like find the few photos that there are and make sure they have prominent positions and tell the story of women. speaker-1: Yeah, wow, a fabulous project. I need to get there. I don't have any plans to visit Inverness anytime soon, but yeah, I'll definitely put it on my list to visit when I go. Now, this was all very serious and worthy. I'm going to absolutely destroy that tone by bringing out the bingo wheel. Let me see. There we go. So here is the bingo wheel of wisdom, Freyja. couple of balls but what I'll do because obviously I realize on the audio this thing rattling around does seem to distract. I have a set of numbers here and I have some random questions so yeah let's pick out the numbers that I've pre-rolled. ⁓ four, what's your favorite place in Scotland? Might be a place in this. speaker-0: or refits. speaker-1: Where? ⁓ over in Lugan, yeah, yeah, Your boyfriend's from over that side, so that's where you spend a lot of your time in Lugan. speaker-0: reef beach, I think. I spent a lot of childhood memories in the camps out there, I just love it. speaker-1: Yeah, it's a yeah, it's an amazing spot. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of it's mad how it's like a different kind of different. Yeah. Anyway, when you know the geography of Lewis, like it was just kind of its own different kind of bit, his own different character. Yeah. speaker-0: It's year where it is like 25 degrees in the rig. It's kind of like being in the Bahamas or something. It's nowhere better. speaker-1: Yeah. 70, a skill you'd love to download Matrix style into your brain. So you wouldn't have to do any domestic courses or anything. You could just kind of like wake up and boom. I'm amazing at that. speaker-0: ⁓ that's such a good question. I think I'll say life drawing. I'd love to just like amazing at life drawing. And just kind of if I go to like a wee class and I sit next to someone who's just got an amazing like line quality and just like, wow, that's the skill I'd love to just download and skip past the kind of grueling process. speaker-1: Yeah, myself and Laura, my wife, we both like love like portrait artists of the year or landscape artists of the year. And it is, it's like, I just, I just love it so much. And I'm like, oh, some people are just like, they've only got four hours. And some of the portraits that people could come up with, it's just, I'm still just like blown away, fascinated. But yeah, I'd kind of, I'd kind of be with you there. was just I tend to think of digital skills, like, you know what? Been able to knock out an amazing drawing just with like pencils is just pretty an amazing skill to have. It'll never grow old. Number nine. Well, this is quite a book you'd recommend. Is that it? Yeah, that's the question. It's fairly basic. speaker-0: And let me look, I've got my stack of design bricks here. speaker-1: Cool. don't know if I specified design book in the question, but please do ⁓ recommend a design book. speaker-0: Let's see, a book I would recommend. I'm going to actually just say one that's really influenced me at uni because it was kind of a design book, also I think it would be interesting to anyone. It's called Happy City. speaker-1: Alright, okay. speaker-0: Are you going to be here? Yeah, who's the writer again? I was just like, Charles Montgomery, and it kind of changes the way you think about cities and places and like, how they're measured, you know, and it's, yeah, Charles Montgomery, happy city, transforming our lives through urban design. But for a brief moment in uni, that was like, I was obsessed with that book. speaker-1: Okay, cool. I've got my sister-in-law as a town planner. might put that on the gift list. Sounds like something she could use. Yeah, excellent. What's the next number? 57, Instagram or Pinterest? speaker-0: Oh, I have Pinterest. speaker-1: Pinterest. Yeah. speaker-0: I think I would love to spend far more time on Pinterest than Instagram. speaker-1: Yeah, know. Yeah, it does. I do feel happier, definitely, after I have more positive experiences on Pinterest than I do on Instagram. 52. Right, this is a bit of a long one, but this is a would you rather. Would you rather do an OK job for an OK client that got loads of awards or do amazing work for a client you love, but you're not allowed to talk about it or share it in your portfolio? and you get the same money for post gigs. speaker-0: I'm gonna say until it should pick me but I'm gonna say the second one genuinely speaker-1: I, I, I, yeah, go on. ⁓ speaker-0: It's like, yeah, I just can't imagine getting a huge amount of satisfaction from the glory of a project that you're not super proud of. yeah, I would much rather the feeling that you've maybe shared a really great project with someone and then you, I think I'll choose that one. speaker-1: It's a sort of would you rather that kind of like I, I kind of was thinking about it in terms of like keeping my ego in check. As in it's like, you sometimes I'm sometimes especially when you get onto the self marketing thing about like, you know, trying to brag about the work you've done and slightly getting a bit kind of like ⁓ this thing about creating for the sake of creating and enjoying it. ⁓ Who's the guy that I went to? was like graphic design festival. ⁓ I wish I knew his name. But he's yeah, he's been in the industry for years and years. He's just one of the like his whole talk was almost this like Zen meditation on like what what creativity means. You know, it was was was nothing kind of about the portfolio or anything was almost just kind of like it seemed to be like Jedi level kind of talk. But one of the first things he kind of put up was like these Buddhist monks who make these ⁓ drawings out of water that instantly kind of dry or, you know, those like sand mandalas that they spend like weeks or months just trying to do these like coloured sand making these beautiful ornate mandalas out of sand, just very delicate. And then as soon as they finished it, they just sweep it up. It's just got, it's this whole nature of impermanence and like getting to that idea of, you know, it's just, it's about being in the know and being in the creative moment. ⁓ And I do think it's not to get hung up on like, you know, ⁓ that work I did last year, ⁓ I haven't done amazing work or like, none of the work I've done could go into an awards category and I kind of go, ⁓ I should be better, but it's like keeping anyway, it's just that little thing about the Zen meditation of like, if I'm doing nice work, people are happy. I'm happy while I'm doing it, then that's all that matters type of thing. It would be very frustrating not to be able to tell people or show them. speaker-0: I think that is just the ultimate goal. There's definitely some days where I do not feel like that, but I think the goal is to just remember that you're... I try and remember that I'm lucky to be working on a project, especially if it's getting difficult or if you're feeling like you're not getting much out of it. It's kind of like the process, the hard bits kind of make it all worth it at the end as well. So just getting a bit of satisfaction from the thing itself, rather than the finished product. ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: I try, yeah, it's like just trying to do that is important. speaker-1: I'm ruining the audio, but I'm trying to find out who the heck that guy was that I saw. what one last group before I've got my Mr. Zen. No, it's not that. ⁓ no, I'm not going to get it. I'll get it at the end. I'll put it. I have like an intro and an outro to this podcast, so I'll mention it then. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Give the guy credit. 27. Who's headlining the Friday, Saturday, Sunday of your Dream Festival? speaker-0: I'm like, don't just say a head count line up. speaker-1: Yeah, well, you know, just do a headlight over if you want. speaker-0: Saturday Sunday. Okay, so I think the Saturday night has to be like big night. And you want Friday. Yeah, I think I want my like top favorite on Saturday night. So I'm gonna say I'd love to see. Actually, I've seen them before, but this was such a headliner at Bella Drum was chic. speaker-1: ⁓ no way. Yeah, amazing. speaker-0: really amazing and like with they were there with Nile Rodgers and like the songs that they have or the songs that Nile Rodgers has written like speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you don't look like a... I saw him at Waker Man as well and I was like, it was just, oh, he's done this one or this one. It's just like every time. When it's actually been played live, know, it's like, what's the David Bowie one? Let's Dance. And when the drums come in for that, you're like, oh, brilliant. speaker-0: And it's just that feeling of like, no way, like they're about to play this and then you realise it's the live version. So there's that surprise element and they're just like so talented. So that would be my Saturday night. I'm going to put ⁓ something quite chill on the Sunday. Just thinking about the hangover. Maybe just like someone I really love like Joseph or maybe like Billy Martin, like someone I would just love the relaxed vibes of. ⁓ speaker-1: ⁓ yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ I'm going to put something to there on the night before. ⁓ I think I'll put Ruda on the Friday night because it's like, I love seeing Ruda live. I love seeing them in a festival. There's the sound of them in like a tent or something. It's just like really emotional and like ⁓ just lovely kind of trad music, but musicians are the highest order and stuff. Just love them. speaker-1: Roorah. Roorah. Yeah, amazing. speaker-0: Rude are always my soundtrack to flying back into store in a way. When I'm looking over a point, I've got them in my earphones and they're like, I don't know, it's just a kind of ritual I've got, it's so nice. speaker-1: No, I don't think I've seen them. But no, class. Yeah, sign me up. I'm getting a ticket to Freyfest. speaker-0: Yeah, that would be a class festival, actually. speaker-1: Yeah, that would be class. ⁓ Please put me down to do the posters. speaker-0: of a poster designer with Peter Halladon. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Additionally, so I'm locked in. I'll send my invoice for the deposit. OK, we'll just do a couple more maybe because there's no definitive end to this section, by the way. It's just just when I kind of feel as though it's fizzling out, which it did maybe. Yeah, 73, Name a film that made you cry. speaker-0: And her answers are really rubbish. ⁓ It's got to be, swear, ⁓ my gosh. speaker-1: I swear. Yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: I about so much of film. don't think speaker-1: Really? ⁓ man, I have to see this film because I was just like, I saw both documentaries on the guy, Johnny before, like the original one in the 80s. And then there was a follow up one and a follow up one was making me really like I remember coming in and I worked with this rather immature lad in a DVD shop. But he was just there like kind of like talking about all the funny bits he said, or like taking a bit. I was like, I was like, I actually found it really kind of heartbreaking, you know, it was like, you know, because he's like really embarrassed. He's working like with kids and at this like pool or like community centre. And like you could just see he's just like, you know, he's just so kind of embarrassed and he just all these kind of aspirations about waking up tomorrow and then it's just gone. He has these dreams and it's just like he's totally free from this thing. And I was just like, know, but it was just like, ⁓ did you see what he said? thing? Did you see? I was like, I'm past that, like I'm past the kind of juvenile laughing at the sweary words. And I'm like, just really anyway. But yeah, that was just for watching the real documentary. I think that comes across in the film then. speaker-0: 100 % like I think the acting is incredible. It feels really authentically Scottish like based in Galashiels and they've obviously like worked really hard to kind of make that all really realistic and ⁓ definitely had me questioning my own understanding of the Tourette's syndrome. It's always amazing if a film can kind of like heighten your understanding of something and your empathy for it and yeah just ⁓ And it's really funny at times as well. yeah, just we'd highly recommend it. And obviously shout out to Colin as well, was not production designer, graphic designer and set designer, I swear too, which is awesome. speaker-1: Yeah, class. Yeah, yeah. I need to get him on the podcast sometime. Well, Callum ⁓ soundtracked the ⁓ podcast, ⁓ one of his mother night jingles. speaker-0: ⁓ cool. ⁓ Yeah, no, it's amazing when you think about all the work that goes into the graphics in a film and every little newspaper you see or every little poster needs to look like it's from the 80s. I just never really understood that before, so I highly recommend that film. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. I went to see Annie Atkins, who's the she probably has like the coolest job ever. She she is the graphic designer for like Wes Anderson films, films in generally. But she's worked mostly on the Wes Anderson stuff. And yeah, and it was fascinating to hear like when you see a newspaper, like every every story in the newspaper has to be Like one of the fun facts was the, know, all the normally, as you said, they, so we just watched Grand Budapest Hotel region. Grand Budapest Hotel recently, I seem to just stumble over that. And the newspaper in it, she said that you have to kind of get all the images, all the text, just treat it like a proper, fully published, even though you're won't see any of the text and it will be just a flash of it. ⁓ One of the fun facts was that they normally what they'll normally do is that she'll kind of get like somebody junior that's working with her to write up articles, just like make up articles that would have been in such a such a thing. Like you can't just lower a nip submit. You have to like write it. You know, she said these little details, but she said like Wes Anderson himself actually wrote all the articles for the paper. you're kind of saying Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're thinking like as a film director, you've got so many things to do. Like, why are you writing the copy for these like newspapers? So like he did, he wrote all the actual articles that are like that you don't even see on the in the film. But I thought that was fascinating. That's a kind of a production level ⁓ freakish kind of control over the production with Wes Anderson, like even those little newspaper articles that you don't actually get to see are fully in depth written from the perspective of the characters and all that. Fascinating. speaker-0: Can you imagine working with Wes Anderson and you just really need him stay in his lane and focus on something and he's like, hang on, I'm just writing a news article. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, ⁓ speaker-0: I think you were the one who showed me her and I think I followed her on Instagram and just like her work is beautiful. It's just like all these films are just absolutely stunning but it's incredible how much work was into it. So cool. speaker-1: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. But anyway, I just I just loved her talk. There was another thing as well about she anyway, we'll go into it because we're running out of time. But she was just going on about the idea of retro, people's idea of when you say something from the 70s, you kind of have she put up like kind of graphics of kind of what you think of as the 70s or if you have to put like a come to my 70s disco night, you probably have these certain kind of swirly kind of big patterns. And then she was actually showing what design actually looked like in the 70s. it's completely different. It's the same with like every kind of like, anyway, any sort of stereotypical notion that you have of this kind of retro idea, when you actually look at things that were designed there, it seems to be this false interpretation of ⁓ what we expect those decades to be like. Anyway. speaker-0: as well. speaker-1: I have the heavy dessert menu up in front of you, Freya. Let me get some water, because I need a drink of water, because I'm just, yeah, this is just too much for me, just no. speaker-0: Yeah, go for it. speaker-1: Did you have a look at these? speaker-0: Yeah, it is. speaker-1: And ⁓ which delegation would you like? So to list them out, how to price your work, the AI elephant in the room, the red flags of a nightmare client, specialist versus generalist, self promotion without the egg, avoiding burnout, your design and how to sell it, things they never tell you about in design courses. speaker-0: ⁓ So I've chosen number four, specialist versus generalist. And I think it was the cause, it's probably like striking a chord that I am experiencing at the moment, like a wee, maybe like a wee insecurity. And I think it would be interesting to chat about. speaker-1: Okay, yeah. Okay, let's dig down into this insecurity, Freya. Let's have a little look. What feelings come up when somebody says the word specialist? speaker-0: I suppose it's like you graduate out of uni and then you've got your degree title and then for a few years that is what you are, you are your degree but I suppose like being four or five years out of uni now you kind of need to reassess whether or not you're, yeah I don't think your degree title needs to be the title of what you do and So I suppose that's one element of it. And then the other element of it is because I feel like I work across quite a lot of different types of design. I really enjoy that. Like I still do freelance work, even though I work at New Practice now, which is like a kind of architecture and design agency. I kind of keep trying to keep my freelance really quite broad. And sometimes I feel like that's a mistake. But then other times I think it keeps me very open for like whatever challenge. Yeah, it's like, I don't think I've probably ever been someone who's just got like one style and I just, but then you do get quite jealous sometimes of others who have just totally found their groove and their style and they just mastered it over a lifetime. Like I think I'm probably quite like scattergun and ⁓ take on lots and lots of different types of work. So yeah, that's the two reasons why I picked. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, I get it. because it's something that a few people have picked up before on the podcast and something I think I'll go to compile sort of like from everybody's list, because we kind of go back and forth in terms of the pros and cons of ⁓ both really. And, you know, one of the things about as you're saying, they're like a specialist and But yeah, some people have found their groove. The other thing I'm thinking of as well is that I worry about, because I'm a great generalist in terms of like anything, basically anything to do with graphic design, I'll do it. Whether that's print or digital or branding or packaging or, know, I've worked on it and I will do it and it's great and I enjoy it all. And as I previously said. Apologies to anybody that's a really big fan of the podcast. is just like, he's done this chat already. it's, but yeah, they, I love the mix of like, you know, been stuck on a logo design, and you're kind of agonizing over like, like the tiniest millimeters and just trying to refine and refine until you're getting just like the, the, the optimum amount of spacing, etc. to go from that one day and then the next day I'm doing like a poster for like a comedian at the fringe and I can go wild. I can just go nuts. I can make the time. It's like the kind of the more nuts I go, the better it is. And it's kind of like that freedom to kind of go. Yeah. So it's like swaying between. had like one of the quick fire bingo questions was like maximalist or minimalist. And I fluctuate between two. So so. of ⁓ oscillate wildly between the two, you know, I don't think, I think it'd be very hard. Maybe that's like some sort of sign of some sort of ADHD thing going on or some sort of neurodivergent condition. I just find that if I was just like if I was just a logo designer and doing logos like every single day, I'd be just like I'd kind of that would be an exhaustion or some sort of creative, creative burnout associated with that. ⁓ ⁓ But one of the biggest cons then, and I think you touched on it, ⁓ is about how to try to sell yourself then. It's like, I'm a generalist, one of the things about branding, like clarity is the top number one, just clarity, consistency. There's like the four C's or something like that. I forget the other two. The next one is coffee. The other one is chocolate. So chocolate, coffee. But no, like, I kind of feel as though because I'm so generous that if people come onto the site and they look, ⁓ I want the logo designer, but then you sort of see like a brand and a package and an album cover. You're like, ⁓ okay, you might not even think that I kind of, I will just focus on a logo designer and come up with that for you. ⁓ Where I gave the example before of... ⁓ There's this guy, Jack Smith. I'm actually, think I'm actually, I kind of fancy his work so much that I think I'm going to email him and try and get him on the podcast. Cause I kind of got a bit of a design crush on his work. ⁓ But he's a book cover designer. he's, there was Jack Lynch's The Prophet, which won the Booker prize like a couple of ⁓ years ago. And I remember seeing the design for that cover. It beautiful. Like, and he's done all these. different types of book cover designs. When you go onto the website, it's just like the first page is all these amazing ⁓ book cover designs. So it must be really easy for him to kind of just go to any publishing house or any, I'd like he's probably on call as like one of the first people that they kind of turn to in terms of like ⁓ having such a great catalog and having that one specialism. to kind of go, yeah, to find more book cover design work. Whereas in, yeah, because you're a bit more generous, I kind of betrayed my own rules when even, I don't practice what I preach when I kind of discuss branding with clients about that sort of clarity and the consistency of the message type of thing. kind of, I think I'm doing the best I can with the broad range of it. ⁓ But yeah, I do find that quite tricky to navigate. But then, you said yourself there, mean, in terms of the title that you get leaving college, do you feel as though sometimes you kind of get trapped into thinking like, ⁓ I just have to stay in this discipline and that it's hard to kind of navigate between other design disciplines? speaker-0: think I've ever felt trapped and I don't actually think I'm too constricted by it. I feel quite open with what I do and luckily I think the work behind me and my portfolio kind of shows that breadth. But it's more leading to other people, your elevator pitch is probably what I need to work on. I think if you can really nail on the head, even if it's quite general, if you can nail on the head what kind of general it is and what it taps into in a short sentence, then... you're kind of on to a winner because you at least can describe yourself. And I think because I left with the interior design degree, I don't think I identify really as an interior designer. Like although I'm trained formally as that, think I like, I like spatial design more. And I think a lot of people who came out in my course do, and it's probably quite a lot due to like perceptions of others that as an interior designer, you're kind of like picking or specifying like furniture or curtains or cushions or like kind of soft goods, which really I do not do and I wouldn't even know where to start. So ⁓ yeah, I think it's just kind of reshaping and renaming yourself as it suits and doing that regularly so that you're kind of feeling up to date with who you think you are. And I probably am, it's about time for me to do that again, because I don't really know how. But yeah, things, I think there's a real positive to being quite generalist, especially like early on in your career where you can kind of say yes to whatever. And then like I've recently been working, I've been fortunate enough to work on two album designs and onto my third one for musicians. And because I've said yes, I've discovered that I actually really love that work. And I think if I'd just been like, oh, no, I don't do that, then I wouldn't have tried it. And then I wouldn't have found out that that's the type of graphics that I think I'm quite good at. So. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. that's that's what I mean in terms of it's probably really refreshing in your freelance practice to, you ⁓ know, have that space away from the architectural design stuff where you can like have ⁓ more of like an expressive getting back to your days in Atlanta and your art group. It's more feels more like that. And I yeah, I think that's where having done album artworks and ⁓ Why I may be kind of envious of the book cover designers, I think when you kind of get you're actually more tipping towards the art side, you know, you're kind of getting more into like ⁓ actual creative artwork rather than having to worry about any sort of ⁓ constraints of, especially for the cover, any constraints of visibility or legibility or communication side. You just have to create something that's very emotional and fits with the ethos of the band, you know. And especially if it's like, if it's music you like, then it's like that makes the work a lot easier. speaker-0: Yeah, it's like you're just having so much fun and you're like getting into the brain of another type of person like a musician and they've got so because obviously when you're doing a brand design, like the thing you really want to start with with a client is like a bit of inspiration, a bit of direction, some good description words like and sometimes when you don't work with other creative clients, it's quite hard to get that. Whereas when you're working with musician, you just have like Well, you have all the music and then you have all the meaning behind it to work with. So you've just got like a great story to start with anyway. speaker-1: Yeah, they're already kind of speaking the same language. speaker-0: There are already and you just kind of get to visualize it. ⁓ When you're speaking like about specialists like versus generalists like me and my pals, think we've been about this quite recently in terms of being because I work four days a week for a company and then I'm one day a week freelance and kind of like ever evolve and just figuring that whole balance out. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. speaker-0: I think as a young creative, it's like figuring out whether you are your job when you work for a company or whether you are kind of your job plus you have yourself with your job. I think everyone's different. Like some people will just want their nine to five and that's kind of fulfilling their creative energy. Whereas I think for me, it's lovely to have these extra things that plug in and give me other types of creative energy other than. day job so ⁓ making sure you maintain your own creative identity throughout your, even if you've got quite a formal career, I think that's quite important. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, it's, you are your job. Yeah, I suppose. I think it's, I think what you're talking to there is like, one of the things I'm like, even lately, ⁓ there's a run of kind of jobs that I've been doing, which is one particular job, which was very kind of corporate guideline kind of thing. And I remember, well, I'm part of like this designers community and they have these local design challenges and it's like, it's good because it's like, you kind of just show the work off to other designers type of thing. So it's really healthy and supportive community. And I just, found myself doing a few of those just because I realized that I just needed to take the sort of handbrake off, you know, whereas in like, I was kind of dealing with. for ages I've been dealing with the same sort of two fonts and two colours, just trying to keep within the brand guidelines and trying to make that. But I just had to kind of throw myself into something. And even though it was like obviously completely unpaid, but just sort of refresh and renew, I get excited again about getting this sketchbook out. I didn't actually have like a new branding brief or a logo design project on my desk for a month or so. and I was so it was just that way of just having to constantly get back to that thing, that spark that I enjoy and training that muscle of like the ideation part of your brain. Just to kind of when that kind of goes dull or you haven't used that in a while, I think it's important to keep that engine running whatever way you can, even even if it's unpaid work, if you're not actually getting quite working to find a space. in your studio or your practice just to come up with self-initiated stuff. I always recommend that to like students or whatever. It's like even when you graduate, keep doing projects, just keep doing projects, you know? And it's like, and there's a lot of I warn against kind of these, well, probably all changed the scene, but Largely when I graduated or when I was first new on freelance, there was lots of people just like, oh, design me a logo and I'll buy you a coffee and you can put the logo in your portfolio and that's why you get paid. And when you've got zero work or nobody, you kind of go, yeah, actually, wouldn't mind if I'll do this for free and then I can build up a portfolio. But I was like, if you are going to work for free, you don't actually work for any kind of commercial rivers. Like, what's, pick out something that like your favourite album or like, or an artist that you love the music, but you're slightly disappointed by the album artwork. Show me, show me what you would do. It's like, yeah, much more about flexing the muscles rather than kind of doing a live, an unpaid live brief, you know. ⁓ speaker-0: all the pressure and stress that that can bring rather than just like the enjoyment for sure. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. going out and identifying a problem and then going and solving it. Just doing that off your own back and showing you that is much better, especially when it comes to examining a portfolio. As I said, commercial work that has all the constraints and pressures. speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. I think you were like always really good at doing that in the studio as well. I remember, you know, like if you would get stuck, you'd kind of like, especially like you use a different table and have kind of like linos and like actually getting into the physical stimulus, unstuck you as well, I think. So not that you need to look at a creative practice as like a way to be more productive, but I do think you can just get really like fatigued and stuck on the digital and sometimes you need to like try a new medium and then you just start to enjoy it again a bit. speaker-1: Yeah, no, absolutely. is like the desk behind me here. That's my kind of I kind of have the camera the wrong way around because like that's normally my messy desk. I'm doing a sort of chopped up kind of handmade poster of the desk there. So it looks as though like I'm quite messy. But I think this guy Austin Kleon, who's wrote this really good book, ⁓ Just Show Your Work, I think is the name of it. But yeah, a follow on from that. But he says he's got a similar set up. And you said there's like this frustration is just like the more time you spend at that desk, the happier you are. When have to go, when I have to come to this desk that has the laptop and the digital kind of side of things plugged in. If I'm at that all day, then like, or if I'm at that all day for days in a way, I could just totally feel it. I'm just like exhausted, mentally exhausted where I think that's where, you know, you get back to the joy of what you do over that side of the room. Where we're a sketchbook out and ideas and pinning up things that I've found and like, you know, I've got like a pile of magazines there that I can just flick through and these things like a pile of vintage records that like, in terms of typography inspiration and like, what I love about old National Geographic is like, you obviously have amazing photography, but so many adverts in there and some of that old school kind of like, the way they kind of hand lettering and all that kind of stuff, way they laid out graphics back then, it's definitely worth sticking your head back into that analog world for a bit and realising that like, you know, because you're this digital shiny polished kind of AI slop that's coming into it becomes more and more kind of depressing and heavy and creates a creative burnout that yeah, you can get kind of exhausted. So it's important to go back to that. speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I like totally agree. I like did a screen printing course actually last year at the Glasgow College and it was just so good to like not be at a desk with a computer. Like I would just go every Wednesday night for like two and a half, three hours and just learn a new skill and like the constraints of the screen and like printing and the method actually the constraints almost made you more creative rather than having like no constraints like you sometimes feel on. Photoshop or an illustrator, you could do anything. It's like screen printing. It's really quite, things can go wrong easily. So I quite liked the rules and yeah, I think it unlock some creativity for sure. speaker-1: Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, it's a great way to do it. Screen printing and it's what I yeah, I've done that before. ⁓ Like I do think I want to get like some line cutting equipment and make it easy, even a mess you're over there with like an ink block and that. Because when I did a screen printing course or like a line cut course, I took like one of the illustrations I've made in Illustrator and I just used a kind of section of that to sketch out onto my line of block and I just couldn't believe how lovely it felt to actually just carve. Like hand carve the graphics and just I was just having such, it was so relaxing, meditative, you know, and I was just like, oh, this is, I've never got this relaxed and meditative state using Illustrator. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, completely. speaker-1: And it was a went to a course again, I'm sure it's probably that same weekend that I saw this guy I can't name at the graphic design festival. But on the same day, was super mundane. I've got like a super mundane poster there. Rob Lowe, who's a designer and artist, well, more of an artist in ⁓ London. But like he was running a poster design workshop for like the two days. So was like, right, I'm a big fan of Rob, great guy. signed it up for that. And it was like zero laptops, nothing. was like the only equipment we had were like a ⁓ scanner and printer. And ⁓ yeah, that was it. And it was all these like we just had to, it was all this like arts and crafts material. And it was getting back to that way of like just making things just purely by hand. One of the first things he made us do, he gave us like these six dots. and just gave us like an A2 sheet and he said like, make a poster and you have to use these six dots. And it was like, it was getting back to like a brief. You had a brief, but it was most minimal of briefs. And it was amazing, especially the group of like, there was about 20 odd folk and how different interpretations of the dots came about. Some people were very minimal. Some people did balloons. ⁓ I can't remember what I did, but you know, it's just like taking that kind of thing and just showing, just getting back to that. From a brief view, there's so many directions that you can kind of go and people have their own sort of style and interpretation of those those directions. But yeah, that was such a refreshing weekend in terms of like. I actually ran my own kind of poster design workshop, basically stealing Rob's ideas in on Lanter because they wanted me to do like an evening workshop. yeah, that was so much fun. ⁓ I just really loved it. And was ⁓ four or five of us just making posters every evening in on Lanter. But yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, no, really fun. Important to do things like that, I think. speaker-1: Yeah, and big up on Lanter. Vital, vital for the island. So, yeah, that was it for you. That was an excellent chat. Thanks very much for coming on and I hope to see you down by the Clyde sometime soon. speaker-0: Yeah, I'm sure. the podcast. it. Yeah, that would be lovely. Thanks so much. was really nice. Enjoyed it. speaker-1: That was for you there. Excellent final guest to have on this, the first season of our series. I'm not an American. The first series of Wise Noise, podcast, the creativity podcast. I forget what it even is anymore. But there has been some fabulous shows. I hope you've tuned in for all the episodes. this yeah you can go back if you're just dipping in for here the first time there's another six episodes to enjoy and yeah I will be planning series two I do want to get a few people from different disciplines maybe kind of outside of the design realm and just creatives in other fields other disciplines Just art and comedy perhaps and filmmaking Because there's obviously overlap but it's good to kind of gain perspective of different challenges within the creative industry of different disciplines and Yeah, generally get to know some folk that I admire from afar maybe get to know them a bit better So that'll be the plan for series two when that happens. I don't because I need to ⁓ Yeah. get a bit of time and space and ⁓ it's good. mean, like the podcast has been great in terms of the steep learning curve. And I think I've got some healthy perspective from all the chats. ⁓ I kind of did a lot of recordings, basically all in a two week period. So that was I'm coming back to the studio now because it's getting a bit cold in the evening. Yeah, I basically did recordings all in a sort of two week period. And I do remember at the time in that two week period, ⁓ work was quite quiet. And yeah, I don't think I was in the best mood a lot of times for recording as in I was struggling mentally for a couple of episodes there where I felt like cancelling because I wasn't too up for it. but it was actually really good. I felt really good after the chats and I see that connection and that bond and that proper sharing of ideas with people is just something that I forget how healthy that is as a creative freelancer when you're quite isolated a lot of the time. So it's actually was very beneficial for that way that I did have something quite positive to reconnect me. And also some of the lessons I've ⁓ from people have made me, inspired me and made me rethink about my own creative practice. But yeah, so it's been a learning curve in that respect and just finding out the technical difficulties and overcoming them has been, yeah, I've always got this. belief of just kind of do the thing and if it's crap then just do it again and make it slightly less crap and yeah maybe eventually you'll get to a place where it's pretty decent you don't have to I think aiming for perfection is to start anything is just yeah you're never going to get anything started ⁓ So yeah, thanks very much. Cheers for the years and I'll see you in series two. I'm Pierso Halloran. It's wiselove.studio on Instagram and hello at wiselove.studio and got the YouTube channel there as well. So if you want to check out some of the clips and some of the, yeah, lot of the, basically a lot of the visuals from the podcast, they're all up there too to review. And yeah, I'll be back soon. Keep tuned. Thanks very much.