Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep.247 “Facebook Groups For Massage Therapists: Helpful or Hateful?” - Part 1 Panel Debate

Transcript

Ep.247 “Facebook Groups For Massage Therapists: Helpful or Hateful?” - Part 1 Panel Debate · The STA Clinician Podcast

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Music.
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And we're live. Hey, people. Look at all the people in the live land.
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How lovely to see you. Sorry to keep you waiting, but thank you for joining us tonight.
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Welcome to episode 247 of the Sports Therapy Association podcast.
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My name is Matt Phillips, creator of runchatlive.com. And as always,
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this episode is being recorded live at eight o'clock on a Tuesday on the Sports
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Therapy Association YouTube channel.
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In this 13th episode now of our reflection series, we've got a part one and a part two for you.
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They're both panel debates with the topic, Facebook groups for massage therapists,
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helpful or hateful, which is a bit of a clickbait title, but if you can't beat them, join them.
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And it did cause some discussions outside of tonight. So that's what the aim of that was.
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It is a very important topic, very topical, been causing a lot of discussion, rightfully so,
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with many less experienced therapists in Facebook groups feeling the need to
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post anonymously in fear of a cascade of judgment and retribution for more,
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generally more experienced therapists trying to promote evidence-informed practice
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within the massage and manual therapy industry.
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So what we're going to do is in part one tonight, we're going to hear for some
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therapists who feel that the judgment and criticism seen in some very expert
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groups is sometimes not so constructive, could be put forwards differently,
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and in fact can do some harm to less experienced practitioners in the industry.
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And then in part two next week, which is going to be recorded on Tuesday,
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July the 8th, we'll be hearing from a panel of therapists who present the case
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that there is a real need for a cleanup in our industry and that it may ruffle some feathers.
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Facebook groups can be a breeding ground of misinformation that ultimately is
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doing harm to not just our industry, but also our clients and our patients who
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are paying for our services.
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So in advance, I'll say thank you to everybody who's volunteered to come on
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the show tonight and next week. A lot of people haven't been on before.
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And talking of that, we're going to bring up some very soon who are really nervous and
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they're down in the lobby at the moment just comparing and their garments for
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heart rates and things like that honestly i'm not exaggerating that's
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not a metaphor it's really happening literally um but before i
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do bring up the panel for this week and i'd like to say thank
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you to my guest last week cecily hislop of south phoenix massage therapy who
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reflected on episode 118 of the sports therapy association podcast which was
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called massage and manual therapy a modern view and we recorded that back in
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2022 with paul coker and Anna Maria Mazzieri of the ST School.
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Due to some connection issues, those of you who joined us live last week,
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you'll realise that there was some terrible lagging.
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I'm not going to blame it on Cornwall. That would be totally irresponsible of me.
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But there were some issues which meant that we re-recorded it.
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And a huge thanks goes out to Cecily, who's actually in the house tonight.
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So thank you, Cecily, for stepping up and re-recording it with me.
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Uh one afternoon because it was a great conversation about and
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it kind of ties in with tonight as well we did mention social media and how
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we do need to evolve as an industry so it's there as always
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on all popular podcast apps and on youtube and i
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would recommend that you in fact listen to it as a kind of trilogy of what's
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going to go on tonight next week right then i've left them down i'm hoping they're
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still all there some of them are quite pale faces but we're going to bring them
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up hopefully as we start tonight's show before i do that just thank you to people
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who have joined us in the Live Lounge. It's great to see you here.
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If you are here, then I can bring up your comments like that.
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Cecily Hissop says, evening, my lovelies, in a Cornish accent.
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Thank you, Cecily, again for last week. Brilliant. You went above and beyond.
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Stevie Barr, who's going to be with us next week in the panel, is here taking notes.
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Sir Glenn Murphy, MBE, Sir Glenn, how are you? Is with us saying,
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love, set and match. Oops, I mean, evening or ice.
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I caught the tennis as well on TV, just in case someone made that.
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Tris Attenborough, who's going to be here next week, is here as well taking notes.
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And Imi Tester is here as well, who says, evening, listening as I drive home
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until I lose signal in darkest Cotswolds as usual.
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Right. Let's bring people up in no particular order. I should bring them up
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all up on the screen now and we should crack on with this episode.
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Music.
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You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence
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back into soul tissue therapy.
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Okay have we got everybody panel i think we
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have i know you guys um are nervous and
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i really appreciate it especially the topic like this so thank you very much um
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hopefully as the conversation goes on you will feel those
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nerves disappear as you let us as you show experiences i thought we'd start
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just a little introduction so people can recognize your voice really for the
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podcast in particular so when i say your name if you'd be so kind just to say
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where you are in the world and what you do for a living and maybe on a scale
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of one to ten how nervous you are let's start with Emma B.
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Hi I'm Emma I live in northeast Lincolnshire but I won't say where because it's not the nicest place.
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It really isn't, honestly. That's fine.
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And for a living, what do you do, Emma? I'm a qualified sport rehabilitator,
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but I'm just doing a master's at the minute in physiotherapy.
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Excellent. Thanks for joining us, Emma. Michelle Hazel? Yeah.
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Yeah, Michelle. My name is Michelle Hazel. I'm North Lincolnshire,
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so I'm probably not far from you, Emma.
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So I'm just a level three sports massage therapist. I qualified in the end of 2021. one.
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But I'm sort of on the fence on
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what I want to do next and trying to get information on what to do next.
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Sometimes going into these little groups, it's not always helpful.
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I think you get bombarded.
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So I'm sort of on the fence where I want to go next with my qualification.
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But I've got my own little thing on the side of the house, converted garage,
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and I've got enough clients, but it's just what to do next, really. So that's where I am at.
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That's a really good hook, which we'll delve into later. So I
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think I remember as we were talking in preparation for this didn't you
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say you felt pressured to do level four because so many
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people are telling you you're not doing anything but level three it's rubbish
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and all we're doing is and yet you're thinking actually i quite like my
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level three it suits me so brilliant that's a great
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yeah thank you and for coming along michelle who's
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next my little list here fiona wright how are you i'm all
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right thank you yeah i'm in telford i'm a sports massage therapist i've actually
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been in level three for 10 years so you can i must be a music therapy 10 years
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fantastic and you're pretty hot on your gait analysis knowledge as well aren't you,
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oh a little bit of laggy now with with fiona who's frozen okay and we'll come back to fiona,
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danielle peters nice to see you back again thank you for joining us.
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Bonjour. So, Danielle Peters, sports therapist, graduate sports therapist.
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Can you hear me? It's okay.
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Yeah, cool. With a master's in biomechanics. Yeah.
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And yeah, I have a clinic down in Gatwick. That's what I was going to say. Down in Sussex.
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Body, health, Gatwick. We'll give links, if you like, to all of your various
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businesses and enterprises in the show notes to people.
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Well, actually, it depends how the discussion goes tonight. You might decide,
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please, Matt, don't tell anybody where I am, but we'll come to that as we go along.
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Right. Thanks, Danielle. Thanks again for giving up your time as well.
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Right. I think we'll jump straight
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into it. Let me just bring Emma up here again, back into the panel.
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There we go. Right. So like I say, yeah, thanks for giving up your time.
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Facebook groups of massage therapists, helpful or hateful? A little bit of clickbait,
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but when I suggested the title, you were like, yes, bang on.
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That's exactly what they are, hateful. so let's hear some of
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that then maybe who should we I thought first of
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all we start with some experience which kind of led to you being here
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so maybe Michelle would you
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like to start with what happened to you yeah so I started off doing fitness
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and sort of dabbled had a few treatments all for chiro and things and went and
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had some massage and thought oh I can do this I can help people myself so at
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the end of COVID I did my level three and on finishing that which actually for me,
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even though I've done all my fitness stuff, I find it quite challenging to do that qualification.
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So I set up my own little Instagram and Facebook page.
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And then I remember putting a post up and what they teach on your level three
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about the benefits of massage.
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I put something along them lines, you know, what you get told about lymphatic
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drainage and stuff. And then I got a post the following day off somebody.
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And I did check their sort of profile and they didn't have any friends or anything.
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So I'd obviously used an alias. but they basically said I
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shouldn't be teaching or you know sort of
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really treating people and that I
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was taking money off people I was lying to them so I
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think I'd come onto the SDA page to sort
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of get a little bit of support really and then I did get support I have to say
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I did get support of some people but a lot of people were like you need to get
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your narrative sorted out but to me back then narrative what what does that
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mean there was no clarification so I sort of come back and thought,
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I can't be treating people.
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I've been taught a load of rubbish. I spent a lot of money on my course and
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put the time and effort in.
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And now I've been told that what I've been taught was a load of baloney, really.
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So it sort of put me on a little bit of a hover. But people on the page were
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just saying that you need to go and look for the narrative.
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Where do you look? What am I getting wrong. There was no sort of clarification
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on where to go, apart from, I think Gary was lovely.
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He'd said, you know, I can give you a ring and give you some guidance.
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But I was just fresh out the doors and sort of put my brakes on straight away, really.
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So it sort of, it did not my confidence that people were not giving me friendly
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guidance. They were just taking an opportunity to tell me all the things that
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I was doing wrong, really.
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And everybody started from where I am I you
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know I think they just forget that what they
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may have been taught and gone through the years some people may have
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been doing this for years and built on the foundation and
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they know their stuff now but at some point they will have
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started where I did but I think it's
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like when people learn to drive isn't it and then you get behind
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a learner driver you hate the learner driver and that's what I felt like going
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into the group and then reading comics I sort of I was then afraid to sort of
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comment again as myself because I was reading other people's comments and the
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sort of feedback they were getting.
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So then I just started reading and thinking, I can't post and ask questions
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because I'm going to get this response.
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So that sort of put me off posting on anything really or asking advice anywhere really as a newbie.
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And I still feel like a newbie now. So, you know. Okay.
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Thank you. No, thanks for sharing that. A common story. And I want to make sure
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that tonight we don't get into the topic of a lot of courses out there are kind
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of like poorly put together.
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They're very old. Once upon a time, they were good, but they're missing information. We know that.
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And it will take a long time for particularly the massive courses for them to
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change all their exam papers and all their syllabi and everything.
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I mean we can try but in the meantime there
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are private colleges which are delivering kind of more up-to-date
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stuff but i think the important thing is that
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is regardless of that yeah the comments were made
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and the words were used which made you feel like yeah
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i've just paid loads of money on rubbish yeah and
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it hit you pretty hard does that ring bells with other people
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on the panel has that happened to anybody else kind of if you remember
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coming fresh out were you greeted with the same kind of comments yes
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yeah absolutely Emma tell
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us Emma mine is very very similar to Michelle
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I have just qualified as a
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level four I think it was within about two
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or three months and I asked a question about dry
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needling best courses best place to go I
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did get some really good answers I did follow you know where everybody sent
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me to pass the course no problems and I had just set up my own my very first
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business page and you know where it's just kind of up and coming you got plenty
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of new followers because you're suddenly very new.
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And one person from the group
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had gone through my personal profile to
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find my business profile to then
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make comments um because I
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you know where you put in about you know kind of
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a new thing coming soon to the business and he
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had written where is the evidence for this there
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was about 20 questions where's the evidence for
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this you know along the lines of I'm a charlatan charging money
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for rubbish and I just I know
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it had been up there a couple of hours by the time I had realized
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I felt I know I'm only five
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foot but I felt very very small very embarrassed
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and absolutely gutted that something
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that I thought was private and local to me somebody had
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gone and tracked me down and then gone and
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fired all these questions at me knowing he
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knows I was new at the time I just felt completely exposed and it was absolutely
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horrendous and I have asked very very minimal questions in that group since
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I have to be desperate to kind of put something forward in there Thank you.
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Yeah. So similar story. It's going to be, I'm so, I really thank you for sharing
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these because although so far as only two stories, I think that I hear that
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we get people writing to the STA and saying this happened to me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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And it happens so much. And it's going to be so interesting for anybody who's
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got a bit more experience to listen back to this and just think, Ooh, okay.
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Cause I think that's the problem. I don't believe there's as many.
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Arses out there who just do it to bring you down I think it's people just don't
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realize how harming words can be I like to think that maybe that's me being
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a bit glass half full but or not Fiona do you think there's arses out there
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or is it just people who don't really think about their words what do you think Fiona?
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I think they're just new isn't it there are yeah I think a
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lot yeah I think there but I
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think on the whole people are very passionate about you
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know becoming improving the
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industry and sometimes forgetting with
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them you know you do feel quite ashamed sometimes if you
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don't know everything if you ask the
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wrong question I haven't had
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an experience but that's only because I don't post anything
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so I'm paraphrasing anything especially
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on my business page you know it's my livelihood i
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if i don't know in
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a month you know this is for
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me yeah that's such a shame and it is a real shame because i've had the pleasure
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of meeting you in person i've chatted with you and you've and you've got so
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many great ideas and you're so inquisitive and you and and when you trust somebody
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in front of you as it should be the case then then you ask great questions and
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it creates so it's such a shame that.
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You know, you're not being able to contribute to any form just by asking questions
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that everyone's thinking sort of stuff.
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So that's interesting as well. It hasn't happened to me, but that's because
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I just don't go into these groups because I'm too scared to.
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Yeah, another side of things.
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Dani, you've been around the blog a few times. I don't.
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How does this make you all feel?
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How does it make you feel? No, what I mean by that is you've, yeah.
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Sorry, those first two stories were horrendous to hear.
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I am genuinely really sorry that you had to go through that.
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And for people to put down your qualifications, that's absolutely mental to
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me. I can't believe anyone would do that.
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I'm lucky no one's said that. I had someone tell me to my face,
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funny enough, when I just graduated and a classic couldn't find a job, so I was working in a bar.
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And they told me my degree was a waste of time, which was fun.
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That was a really sad day when you can't find a job.
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You're like, oh, no. but uh who cares we've got a nice unit now
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so sort of but yeah like he's
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still at some bar in ibiza ordering drinks isn't he no
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it was a really posh hotel i was working in and um lady had an anatomy book
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out and i was like oh you study anatomy that's really cool trying to make conversation
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i said oh i'm a sports therapist and she'd obviously had too many cocktails
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and she came to the bar like she's doing me a favor she's like might as well
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work your way up here there's no job There's no career in sports therapy. I was like, I don't know.
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Yeah, I was well done. When I'm crying my eyes out, I was like, mom, it's awful.
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You know what? She left behind her certificate for anatomy and I shredded it.
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And it was the best shred of my life. No words. Nice.
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Yeah. Yeah. So, sorry, my dog is chatting to everyone. She's decided now to bark.
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Yeah so i'm gonna get
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a touch that's fine sorry my
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dog is barking um but uh
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yeah with regards to me i have asked a
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couple of questions before in the past and i have
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like the majority of comments are usually quite good but there's
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always that one person who makes you feel very very
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small and and yeah i think one time
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i'm pretty confident the best of times so i think i i'd
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said to them that was very rude of you to write and the
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admin came in and actually deleted their comment completely because
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it was totally inappropriate and it wasn't helpful you know
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a lot of us work by ourselves so actually we
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use these communities to kind of just bounce ideas
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around which is totally fine and it should
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be met with questions and then
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maybe something helpful as well like by all means further us
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you know give me a bit more information we can't diagnose
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online or anything like that but like it should.
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Be it should be more met with a bit more like
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softness I mean I mean I was looking
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up earlier there's that obviously that quote isn't there from um
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Mike Tyson to quote the boxing world
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you know social media made you all too comfortable with
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disrespect and not getting punched in the face for it and it's
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so true isn't it like how many times have you been a little
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bit ballsy because there's no one in front
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of us so yeah like I do think sometimes
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there's a little bit of confidence and quick writing without
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thinking which isn't necessarily like personal it's
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just sometimes how it and sometimes it can read a bit bad as
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well it can be read quite bright because you can't see emotion but yeah like
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I'm lucky that my my qualification on on social media hasn't been questioned
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I'm very fortunate but yeah I have asked questions before and been met with
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you're an idiot it is interesting isn't it um.
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I want to get on I think there was something well then,
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Sorry, say again. I'm sorry. I think I listened to the Cecily Hislop podcast
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that you did and you said something in there when there was a chat that you
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walked up to him and you said, I don't know whether to give you a hug or punch you in the face.
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And that's because of whatever he'd written on somebody or how he came across.
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But actually in person, he was really nice.
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And I think that may be the case with some of the people that are posting stuff for us.
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That actually in person, they probably are really nice, but sometimes they just
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don't know how to articulate in a more personable way when somebody actually
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really needs help at a much more, I don't know, nice level.
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But we've lost the ability to be nice to people, I think.
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And I think the internet actually allows people to be rude and it's not acceptable
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always or anytime, really.
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Yeah, I think you're right. It's a problem which is across social media, isn't it?
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And I worry about, oh, I sound so old now,
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but I worry about the younger generations because if they're losing these skills
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if they're just talking to each other in short talk and
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not understanding you know the little ways of
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being kind to somebody with different words or persuasive or showing empathy
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then it's kind of quite scary how communication is going to go down the pan
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i want to get on the topic of anonymous posts because that's that's one that's
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really kind of put me made me want to kind of do this episode because because
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of the things which you guys have discussed.
20:39
Quite a few therapists now not all of them which we can mention as well but
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some people are just posting anonymously because they're just worried about
20:45
the return and the reply has anybody here posted anonymously and had any kind
20:51
of repercussions from that no don't post anonymously,
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i don't know how to half and
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i think i i put one anonymously but it
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was i got some good feedback the type of feedback I
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got from my anonymous post was I'd had an inappropriate client
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in and I think you would actually said to me like you know
21:11
go on this podcast we've done a podcast about there's people on
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there that have gone through it and I think that's the sort of information you
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need clear and concise here's the information they've
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been through it what whereas people you know
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just dismissing what you've said but that's I'd put
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I think I put that one anonymously but I think
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in general if you read other people's sort
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of responses that prompts you to want to put
21:35
something anonymously because you don't like with
21:38
emma you don't want them going on your personal page and ridiculing you or putting
21:43
you down on your page so if you go anonymous they can't find you so and hopefully
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within some of the stuff that you get back there's something in there that is
21:53
helpful even if there are a handful of people in there that are being else is. But yeah.
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Yeah, it's interesting. In an ideal world, people would have the confidence
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to ask any question with their name and not feel kind of threatened at all.
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But it's not an ideal world, unfortunately.
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I must admit, some of the anonymous questions you think, what towel roll do
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you use? Why are they asking it anonymous?
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What's that about? Am I missing something here? Or what's that about?
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Is there something I'm missing with that? Or do you think? I think it's the
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sense of vulnerability.
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I've been watching for a while, mostly because I don't like talking in there
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for the reasons we're speaking about.
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I think you should have the right to anonymity when you're walking into a lion's
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den, which is exactly how it feels when you're asking something that you feel is a stupid question.
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Although we should all be very aware there's no such thing as a stupid question
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so you're making yourself vulnerable and if you've been through the pages and
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you've seen some of the replies you know you're going to get them same people
23:03
coming at you with belittlement,
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ridicule.
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Making you feel just horrendous.
23:10
Why shouldn't we have? The fact that we
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even have to do that is pretty bad considering our
23:17
careers are based around how to
23:19
communicate effectively verbal and non-verbal for
23:23
me non-verbal means writing typing and you
23:28
know it's at the very heart of what we do and it's
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so ironic that these people struggle to
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communicate or put down in a message something
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humane that's it
23:41
they lack humanity and if
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you can't be nice then just don't comment it's
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not necessary so the fact that we need anonymity is quite sad in itself but
23:54
yeah it's the vulnerability for me that means that anonymity factor is a thing
24:01
that's needed which is very unfortunate given what we do.
24:05
Very interesting. Yeah. So even if it sounds like an obvious question,
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it could be down to some other experience or something they've read because there's quite a few.
24:13
So I guess even that because people see them and think this is ridiculous.
24:17
This forum's going crazy. What's the point of having people that won't even
24:19
say their names, but there's a message behind it. There's a story behind it.
24:23
I wanted to read out Michelle Sims, who I think could well be watching.
24:28
She gave me some information, which was to do with anonymous posts.
24:31
And I just want to read out her contribution. And if you are in here,
24:34
Michelle, then you can add to it in the comments. So Michelle Sims said,
24:37
I asked a question anonymously, so I didn't look stupid.
24:39
I asked about Indian head massage on a pregnant lady. I wasn't pregnancy trained
24:43
then. I am now. And I got mixed answers.
24:45
I'd been to my insurance who sent me to my training provider and the answer still wasn't clear.
24:50
I went to the STA page where I got a mixed response. So I also posted on another
24:54
popular site or group to try and gather as many different perspectives as possible.
24:59
It was there that one lady jumped on it straight away saying,
25:03
this anonymous poster has already artists in another group and
25:06
it's not listening to the responses given and she can't understand
25:09
remember the exact wording but i think my intonation kind of described what
25:12
was going on so i deleted the anonymous post now
25:15
this is where michelle deleted the anonymous post because she was like
25:18
okay i'll just delete it if you don't want me to kind of put these posts here
25:22
then i'll just delete it and that got i don't know whether she created the expression
25:26
dirty deleting but that started a whole kind of snowball of problems now where
25:32
it's like anonymous people actually deleting their posts because people have
25:34
put answers and then if you delete the posts, all the answers disappear.
25:38
And I kind of read that through, and it was quite interesting because some people
25:42
did give quite constructive ideas and spend their time making a break in between 30.
25:50
Again, it all came from this person, Michelle, just being jumped on and kind
25:55
of shamed, basically, in a lie, if anyone can see it, and just calling her out,
26:00
saying, oh, she's been asked this question to everyone. She's just not listening.
26:02
So again, I mean, I don't hand on heart believe that the person who did that was a bad person.
26:09
But I think it's another example of where maybe they didn't think twice.
26:12
They jumped in a little bit quickly, do you think?
26:14
And this was an admin, a moderator of a group. So is that a problem with you guys as well?
26:19
Do you sometimes think the moderators could do more to control these groups
26:23
yes I think I think it's actually quite difficult because the moderator it relies
26:29
on the moderators being online as well at the same time as all of it going off
26:33
and a lot of the time they they do genuinely have lives sometimes but.
26:39
But yeah sometimes it does get out of hand I think it is good when
26:41
they do jump in like I said when when I called someone out for being
26:44
a bit rude it was deleted pretty promptly I think
26:47
I saw that post and I yeah and I don't know
26:50
I can't remember it top of my head but yeah
26:54
I don't I don't think it's a legit question I don't know why anyone
26:57
would like go in in on it and there's plenty
27:00
of things that I've seen that that have been questions that I don't necessarily
27:03
agree with it doesn't mean I need to necessarily comment or
27:07
make a derogatory remark to someone especially on
27:10
a public platform you know like it just
27:13
it baffles me like what it is a cultural thing as well this is just like off
27:18
for our groups it's all over I don't really understand why why people jump in
27:24
on things that's one none of their business and secondly not helpful because
27:28
you know there is a real person at the end of the day so yeah I don't really understand that at all.
27:33
Yeah I think I think that's sometimes what the issue is isn't
27:36
it is that people don't put themselves in Aboriginal posters
27:40
shoes they don't
27:43
you know realize feel like so if your
27:46
question bombarded with what can feel like quite hostile answers
27:50
yeah i don't think it always comes naturally
27:53
i mean i i'm i'm
27:56
not blowing my own trumpet by saying this because
28:00
it's plague and i can spend 20 minutes deleting and
28:02
rewriting and deleting rewriting and then probably never even putting
28:05
it because i wasn't happy with it when all i needed to say was a little comment
28:08
because i overanalyze it i'm reading and thinking oh no that could be taken
28:12
the wrong way and it's bad it's not like it's just i worry too much about it
28:17
sometimes i'm not pragmatic and don't ever ask me to get a serious job done
28:20
because i just take ages thinking about the pros and cons but.
28:24
That pendulum's two-sided it's too far that way but then there is the other
28:28
side i think where honestly it's not people just don't realize they just they
28:32
haven't got the awareness that what they've written can be,
28:36
misconstrued can be read differently and i'm hoping
28:39
that when people do listen to this episode you know
28:41
it'll make people stop and think because again i just want to reiterate i don't think
28:44
they're bad people it's just they haven't got had that development
28:47
maybe when they were young maybe their education establishment maybe carers
28:51
or parents or whatever it is they just don't naturally have that flexibility
28:55
to look at their words and think hold on just delete that a little
28:57
bit or maybe i should rephrase that and not put in bullshit or whatever
29:00
it is so i'm hopefully we'll see fine
29:04
what else do you want to bring to the table i want to i don't want to
29:06
go rattling on anything you want to bring up the one thing
29:09
i'd say is i'd read something where somebody had
29:12
put a post up about they'd had a client in i
29:15
think they were a level three like me and the client was out of their sort of
29:19
scope of practice so they'd said that they'd sent the client on to you know
29:24
to to another professional but they were just asking if there was any courses
29:28
available so they could be better informed and better signposts in the future
29:32
if anybody else came through.
29:34
People totally ignored the fact that she had sent the client off for referral to someone else.
29:41
And she just got bombarded with, you can't treat the client out of your scope, one after the other.
29:47
And every so often she came in and said, actually, no, I've referred the client.
29:50
I'm just asking for courses.
29:52
And then sometimes you get these little debates going on further down the page.
29:56
And then And the question is what the problem is about.
29:59
So I think I find that goes on a lot where the actual question originally disappears
30:05
and then we get a whole debate of something else going on.
30:08
And then the person gets no sort of advice in the end, apart from this debate
30:15
going on about how much outer scope treating that like is happening.
30:19
Yeah, that's interesting. And the original person who just went there,
30:22
the sole practitioner with a little bit of help, has just gone,
30:24
hey, guys, can anybody hear me?
30:27
And it's turned into some philosophical debate about what is evidence-based
30:32
or evidence-practice? Should it be evidence-informed? It's just gone, what?
30:35
Yeah, that can happen. People get obsessed with other sites.
30:39
Maybe the whole structure of Facebook groups just needs changing.
30:42
Maybe one of the problems here is, I mean, I thought last night,
30:46
again, just reflecting too much about whether this might be a bad idea to get ready to shoot me down.
30:51
In some other forums, next to people's names, this wouldn't work with Facebook,
30:56
but it's got kind of like level of experience.
30:59
Yeah. You know, I mean, I'm thinking of like other forums, not social media
31:03
ones, but whenever anyone posts, it's got level of experience, basically.
31:07
So you straight away, you know now if you're talking to somebody who's got less
31:10
experience or somebody who's got more experience or something.
31:12
I don't know whether that would help or not but at the
31:15
moment no one's got a clue about anybody unless they bother clicking on
31:18
their profile and learning a bit about them and it's often it's tricky
31:20
to talk to people if you don't know anything about them isn't it yeah or
31:24
maybe I'm just being too maybe it's
31:28
up to the person to go how long have you been qualified that would
31:31
help I'm just jumping in with that's rubbish it's not
31:34
evidence-informed this was another interesting question this evidence-based
31:37
evidence-informed thing it's thrown around willywood nearly and
31:40
it's used as like the answer to everything well that's not everything's based that's not
31:43
everything's informed do you know what we're going to do another we're getting
31:46
a whole episode about that because i think as we were talking before you
31:49
read it a lot it's not something sadly that you're introduced to
31:52
when you maybe you finished your diploma or whatever course
31:55
you did and yet it's thrown about the forms as some kind of like magic answer
31:59
to everything but have you i mean you've mentioned a few times some of you but
32:03
is it something which in time you've managed to learn about and now you You
32:08
understand what they're talking about and you just wish at the time, you know,
32:12
when you asked the question, they just kind of eased you more gently into it.
32:16
Is it a problem? Yeah, for me, I mean, coming out of my level three and level
32:21
four in sports massage, I wouldn't, if somebody had said, what does evidence-based mean?
32:27
I said, I don't know. Is it something to do with baking?
32:30
It was only through my undergrad and now my master's that I really know what
32:36
it is, what I have to do, where I have to go,
32:40
how it should be done, and all those hoops you have to go through, which is great.
32:46
At level three and level four which are the people who ask these
32:49
questions they still aren't clear and I
32:52
know you get some people asking questions about courses
32:56
some are fantastic some are a bit well
32:59
gives you money let's tell you you're qualified in x y
33:01
and z and I know is always jumping to
33:05
somebody's rescue and say come and talk to me I'll
33:07
give you kind of a no holds bad advice which
33:10
is fabulous and at level three and level four
33:13
you're pushed with this information and you
33:17
still don't have a clue because you don't know how
33:20
to check the evidence base if you've been
33:23
in your business for 10 15 20
33:26
years that's really great you're telling
33:29
people check the evidence base that's usually
33:32
the one comment and a couple of
33:35
lines of check the evidence base okay if
33:39
you're going to write that tell them where to go how do
33:42
they do it at level three give a
33:45
little bit more information instead of the sarcastic where's
33:48
your evidence base like what happened
33:51
with me if it have made a private
33:55
message and said look Emma do you know I'd have absolutely been you know up
34:01
for talking making a conversation because then that becomes networking instead
34:06
of this personal slating and then never to want wanting to ask anybody else in that group again.
34:12
And I got thrown at me, what do you think Google's for?
34:16
There's so much rubbish on Google. How are you supposed to go and Google something?
34:21
You know, it brings up all sorts. There needs to be some sort of clear and concise guidance.
34:26
And then perhaps we wouldn't ask these so-called stupid questions.
34:31
But they're not stupid to us. So some of the questions, like it's,
34:35
I suppose, level dependent.
34:37
But like I said, everybody's started some sort of a level where they've needed
34:41
to ask a so-called stupid question.
34:43
It's just if you don't feel the need to or that you can give like good advice,
34:49
then maybe just read and let somebody else that has got the patience to give
34:53
the advice, give the advice and just read and don't post if you've got nothing,
34:58
you know, nice to put in a nice way.
35:01
Sometimes I think people have probably had a hard day at work. They're busy.
35:04
They have a quick look and they probably just throw comments out there,
35:08
which I said before and it gets typed in a way that can get taken or misconstrued
35:13
in the wrong way but and then when you read back the following morning which
35:17
I think another member has said you read back some of their comments and thought
35:20
oh actually that was a bit harsh perhaps I should have worded that a bit differently
35:24
but I think we're all guilty of that sometimes.
35:28
Yeah that's cool that's a really nice thing to point out that
35:31
we are all human and yeah sometimes the people who kind of jump on something
35:34
and even say oh here we go again no more bullshit they might have had about
35:39
10 of the same conversations in the last two days or something and they're just
35:42
kind of venting out in public and i've seen some people you know including people in the comment section,
35:49
tonight who have kind of come back later and go i was wrong about that or something
35:53
and kind of go i was a bit too harsh with my comments or something so it does
35:57
happen carol walton who also contributed to do.
36:02
Putting this together and may well be in the
36:05
live lounge listening she mentioned um she had
36:08
a situation where i get
36:12
this she she had the retort the reply with oh you must forget about the brain
36:17
and humans are very complex and that was almost the same as evidence informed
36:20
because she she wrote here she says as a woman who's 62 years old oh this is
36:25
where i got the expression from sorry for danielle it was carol who said i'm
36:29
62 years old and i've been around the block a few times.
36:32
And I think I know the understand the complexities of the
36:34
brain so she found that very patronizing and again I don't
36:38
think it's meant to be patronizing but it's the
36:41
same as when we say to our patients oh it's because the
36:44
pain is in your brain it's kind of a terrible thing which we realize now
36:46
we should avoid quite a lot because it's just
36:49
kind of well firstly it's inaccurate secondly it can make the patient
36:53
or client believe that they're that you're saying
36:55
it's all made up but it's kind of the same thing we've got to be very
36:58
careful in the comments when we start saying to less experienced therapists
37:02
oh don't forget about the brains very complex human beings because
37:04
it just comes across as patronizing and it's not going to
37:07
make sense the other person is not going to go oh yeah i
37:10
get it now oh thank you yeah no it's totally clear thanks very much totally
37:12
get it now so yeah there is a bit of reflection
37:15
that's needed fiona what are you thinking i could see the cogs in your mind
37:19
going around yeah so i'm dropping it out a bit of um with those sounds so I've
37:25
been struggling a little bit but I think the important point to make is that
37:31
for a lot of us we're by ourselves.
37:38
I don't have colleagues I can bounce ideas off or questions off so if we ask
37:42
in a safe environment and get good ask replies we sometimes make a massive difference to how I,
37:55
my business my clients and people,
38:00
who do work by themselves and have a class where you can go to a school.
38:08
Yeah, that's true as well. It's ironic, isn't it? As a sole practitioner,
38:12
you go to Facebook groups for support and then you get jumped on and it's like,
38:17
okay, that's out now. Where do I go?
38:18
Who am I supposed to talk to if I can't get something from Facebook?
38:21
Again, that makes me think whether I'm thinking of other forms,
38:26
but even in some forms, every time we post, you can have a little sound.
38:34
Again that might help avoid i'm
38:37
just trying to think of solutions as a typical bloke just trying to think of
38:40
solutions i shouldn't i should just be listening and empathizing but
38:43
i think reflective practice which
38:46
is also very important according to the evidence
38:49
base that everybody likes to shout about maybe they
38:53
could do some reflective practice and change
38:56
how they communicate i am sorry
38:59
to everybody here but i've heard a lot of excuses of
39:03
they've had a bad day misconstrued just
39:07
it's us we're sensitive we are
39:10
we are maybe it's our fault maybe it's
39:13
a stupid question and i've just read a
39:15
comment from nicky mansfield so you
39:18
know sometimes it's the ego thing the bullies
39:22
and she is absolutely right it's the
39:25
same people saying the same things I
39:29
mean it was a couple of years ago it happened to me with
39:31
this man and I have never forgotten and
39:35
if these people haven't changed
39:38
at all their communication and skills are
39:41
still as poor as originally they are
39:45
still saying the same thing why aren't
39:48
they educating these new people change the way
39:51
you communicate because you wouldn't send a message like
39:54
that to a client because you'd be
39:57
quickly out of business very very quickly and
40:00
come with a bad reputation I apologize for.
40:03
That everyone I just I wouldn't dream of messaging.
40:06
Or sending up something like that into a public forum.
40:10
And berating somebody who's only a
40:13
level three or a level four yeah and I
40:16
think face to face as well a lot of these people.
40:19
Wouldn't address people in the same way if they were in a course together and
40:25
somebody at a different level they wouldn't speak to them that way because face
40:29
to face you don't know what sort of response you're going to get but when you've
40:32
got miles and miles and a computer to another computer they can pretty much
40:36
get away with saying what they like and there's no real.
40:40
Comeuppance at the end of it they say what they've got to say and sometimes if they form a little
40:45
group and you've got quite a few of them that agree and all
40:48
jump on it sort of becomes a little bit of a
40:51
habit to hop on and say these things
40:54
on a regular basis and then nothing gets done about
40:57
it so I think it's good that we like you've done this tonight because it it
41:00
brings it to the forefront and it may make some people think twice before they
41:05
post something which is a bit abrupt or maybe not maybe they'll carry on I don't
41:11
know it'll be good to watch in the future yeah Yeah.
41:17
I do think to like slightly lighten it like uh superhero Gary G-Dog Benson yeah,
41:28
like he often I don't know if anyone's else noticed but he often does come into
41:33
these these discussions and he'd be like give me a shout give me a call let's have a discussion,
41:39
and uh and I think I've answered a question before he's like Dan give me a call.
41:47
But yeah I think that maybe is
41:49
something maybe we we should all like start thinking about
41:52
as as so it's all it's all easy for us
41:55
to say well this is awful but maybe what a solution is
41:58
is maybe to say drop me a dm I might I might
42:01
be able to help you let's have a conversation and then it becomes
42:04
like a bit more personable rather than like the thing
42:08
with these posts it's quite the equivalent of
42:11
like you standing on speaker's corner and shouting out
42:14
to the public your question
42:17
and of course everyone's like okay sure
42:20
but sometimes actually what you need to do maybe I'm
42:24
wrong but but maybe what we need to do is is say
42:27
give me a shout I think I've done it somewhere before I
42:29
was like I think I know how to help you and I just said
42:32
I'll drop me a dm because I've done something similar before and then
42:35
we had a little like two-way conversation it was much more in depth and
42:38
stuff but it probably wouldn't be suitable for like the
42:41
masses if that makes sense so maybe like be more
42:43
like gary like um hashtag be
42:46
more gary but yeah maybe maybe like
42:49
be a bit more support maybe we could like change this as well and and use this
42:54
as a way of learning as well maybe we need to just offer out a hand if we think
42:58
we can help that person that's nice and and i'm not sure we see that very often
43:03
in groups do we where somebody just goes if you wanted to i I mean,
43:07
whenever I see it, I always think.
43:09
Oh, this person's sending a course or something or DM me.
43:12
But in actual fact, yeah, there should be more. Shouldn't they just DM me if you want to chat?
43:17
Because yeah, just in private, that's the problem here, isn't it?
43:19
It's hanging out, you're washing. Everyone's looking, everyone's judging.
43:22
And a lot of these conversations probably should just be on a one-to-one kind
43:26
of thing within a couple of minutes that they're opened up to the general public.
43:29
Yeah, good. I like that. Be more like Gary. Hashtag be more like Gary.
43:34
Cool. That's true. Wonderful. Right.
43:37
It's getting late is there anything i just want to hear anything
43:39
else which you guys want to bring to it i mean like i say next week there's
43:43
some lovely people jumping on who have got more experience i've already i'm
43:46
sure they're going to have a lot to reflect on and look inside but anything
43:50
else you'd like to send as a message to somebody who is watching this and maybe have kind of,
43:58
unknowingly kind of jumped on someone a bit too violently in a Facebook group.
44:03
I feel like I'm leaving a message for my children here, but the message is really simple.
44:08
Just be bloody nice because it doesn't really hurt.
44:14
That's it from me. What are you saying? You're sitting on the fence there,
44:18
aren't you? Just say what you think.
44:21
What do you mean by just being nice? Yeah, it's true. It's that simple,
44:24
isn't it? Yeah, temper your reply. If you're having a crappy day, wait until you get home.
44:30
If you're busy, wait until you're not so busy. If you're rushing,
44:34
wait until you're not. It really is that simple.
44:37
If you're struggling to communicate, like we said earlier, with ADHD,
44:42
etc., wait until you've had a little bit of downtime. I know my son has ASD,
44:47
so I know exactly what it's like when your brain feels like it's on fire.
44:52
Wait until you've had your downtime, then reply.
44:55
Other than that, don't reply at all and let somebody with a little bit more
45:00
patience and a little bit more willingness be able to say, Hi,
45:05
hashtag, be more like Gary. Do you want to give me a DM?
45:12
And also if there's an anonymous option on
45:15
a page it's a choice whether you use it
45:18
or not and it yeah it shouldn't be you can't use the anonymous if you don't
45:22
want us to use the anonymous then take it off but if it's there and i don't
45:26
feel safe i will use it yeah it shouldn't come with any kind of comebacks using
45:32
that at all yeah i think as well yeah so but it could be.
45:38
For the for the moderators or the i mean it's tricky to say people do this voluntarily
45:42
but if i had a group and i was seeing someone who because okay this is an important
45:47
point mic a little bit closer here if you're posting anonymously in a facebook group,
45:54
the moderators and admin staff still see your name. You're not anonymous.
45:59
I know that. And somebody had put that before that they posted something.
46:04
I think you popped it in the chat and they hadn't realized, but actually it clearly states that.
46:09
And you guys are professional. So I would expect like you guys to,
46:13
you know, not say horrible things and stuff and you can see it,
46:17
but also police the situation and probably understand why somebody's posted that anonymously.
46:23
And I think maybe it's not so much a red flag, but it's definitely something
46:27
to follow up, maybe contact that person, just say, hey, I noticed you've posted
46:33
a few times anonymously.
46:35
Should we have a little chat? Is there something which is stopping you?
46:37
Have you had a bad experience?
46:39
That would be nice, wouldn't it? If someone did have time and they were kind
46:41
of fostering a group and looking after it, then anyone who basically is a yellow
46:46
flag, isn't it? Someone who has posted anonymously are doing it for a reason.
46:49
So rather than just let them keep on doing it, there's a conversation there
46:51
to be had, isn't there, I think.
46:53
Yeah cool okay well look great
46:56
information people really really really thank you
46:58
for sharing that information if people have
47:01
been affected by tonight and they've liked what you've
47:04
had to say then i'm going to read out where
47:07
i think you guys can be contacted so
47:10
emma b i notice instagram be strong underscore clinic
47:13
is that a good place for people to follow you yeah so i'm gonna say don't put
47:16
comments i'm okay i don't think
47:19
anyone's gonna dare do that after tonight no no no no
47:22
no no they're not gonna yeah so
47:25
uh well these will go the links but yeah for people who are listening instagram at
47:29
b b e strong underscore clinic
47:32
michelle you instagram as well happy
47:35
underscore minds underscore massage underscore therapy that's the
47:38
one that's me that's the one yeah so that's a nice place
47:41
you can look out and maybe if you want to reach out to
47:44
michelle hazel fiona right
47:47
fit and well massage therapy on facebook
47:50
you've got an instagram account as well which has got some lovely photos can
47:53
people reach out to you on instagram yeah yeah they absolutely can yes so that's
47:57
at f i right w-r-i-g-h-t 78 so at fee right 78 danielle peters owner at body
48:05
health gatwick best place for people to follow you or reach out for you, Danielle?
48:10
Probably Instagram or Facebook, Body Health Gatwick. Body Health Gatwick Simples.
48:15
Wonderful. And then also just want to thank Carol Dalton and Michelle Sims for
48:20
sharing as well their experiences, which I've mentioned a little bit tonight.
48:23
So thank you for you two as well.
48:26
And thank you for people in the live lounge. I haven't been able to follow and
48:30
kind of share your comments, but you've had some interesting points in there,
48:34
which people who are re-watching this on YouTube.
48:36
That's the point, actually, If you listen to the podcast and you want to see
48:39
the comments, all you've got to do is go to YouTube and you'll see the little
48:42
conversations which are going on.
48:44
Sometimes there's some really interesting stuff being raised there and some
48:46
advice as well. So do go and have a look at what's going on in there on YouTube if you want to.
48:52
Right then. That's it. So next week, eight o'clock, July the 8th in part two,
48:57
we're going to be hearing from a panel of therapists, half of who I think are
49:02
here tonight, who are going to be presenting.
49:05
They're going to be reflecting what they've heard tonight and they're going
49:08
to be presenting. There's always another side of the stories in there.
49:11
There is a side of the story where Facebook groups can be a real breeding ground
49:16
for the perpetuation of myths and perpetuation of people acting outside of their scope.
49:24
And the argument is that, yeah, this is why these people need help and support and educating gently.
49:29
But I think one of the problems is, yeah, more experienced therapists go and check these out.
49:34
It's the same stuff again and again and again. And people don't seem to be changing.
49:37
Our industry doesn't seem to be changing. And we're not being taken seriously
49:40
by other healthcare professionals because of some of the stuff which we're still
49:43
spreading, which we learned on the original course.
49:46
So that's not providing any excuses for being
49:49
nasty or blunt and you still got to be
49:52
nice but yeah they're going to be looking at it from
49:55
that point of view so yeah it'll be
49:57
really interesting if you have listed this podcast i'll put it out as soon as i can probably
50:00
tomorrow come along and hear what the panel next
50:03
week have to say and and come along
50:06
and and comment and yeah be great right
50:09
thanks again guys how do you feel now less nervous
50:13
yeah they're looking
50:18
for there before it was a little bit up here but now we seem
50:21
to be yeah actually just great i thought i told you i told
50:24
you'd be fine once you got through now i really appreciate you
50:27
guys stepping up and and just sharing it is inspiring
50:30
for anybody else out there who wants to get
50:33
on this reflection series and if there is an episode of the
50:36
sports therapy association podcast which affected you and what
50:39
you're doing clinic and you like it and you want to kind of give a
50:42
call out for the for the guest on there then email me
50:45
matt at thesta.co.uk or find me at phillips
50:48
or one chat live on social media and say oh i quite fancy that i
50:51
like the idea of that and you can come on the show and have a chat about that
50:53
episode again no right or wrong answers just about you reflecting because people
50:57
are really inspired by you guys including you guys they'll hear you and they'll
51:01
go wow i want to do that i can do that so thank you for giving up your time
51:05
and and the nerves hopefully it's not something you're going to carry around negatively.
51:11
Yeah there's not going to be any yeah post-trauma at all anything like that
51:16
i really appreciate it thank you and thank you everyone in the live land right
51:19
hopefully we'll see some of you next week but until then as always i normally
51:25
say take care of each other but i'm going to use emma b's quote here be nice.
51:30
Music.