Latest / Banned Camp: Banned Books, Comedy, and Free Speech vs. Censorship / The Catcher in the Rye Ch. 10 Part 1: What Is Holden So Afraid Of? | Why Books Get Banned

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The Catcher in the Rye Ch. 10 Part 1: What Is Holden So Afraid Of? | Why Books Get Banned · Banned Camp: Banned Books, Comedy, and Free Speech vs. Censorship

Welcome to Band Camp.
I'm Jennifer.
And I am Dan, and this is the podcast where we read band books and try to figure out why they were banned in the first place.
This season we are reading The Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger, and you can consider this a quick spoiler warning because Jennifer's about to start reading from the book out loud.
Word for word.
Now, if you're new here, you're totally fine starting out here.
We're gonna get you oriented real quick, and if you get confused, I bet we're gonna be confused too, because neither of us have ever read the book either, and that's why we have a secret weapon.
Let's bring him in now.
Roll it in here buddy.
Boy, look at this guy.
He is the third member of our team.
He's our fact checking robot.
Come on, move it.
Shake a tail.
Can fill everyone in.
Where did we leave off last time? And Catcher in the Rye, buddy.
Boy, Previously on band Camp Holden Caulfield arrived in New York City in the middle of the night, stood in a phone booth for 20 minutes trying to think of one single person to call and came up empty.
He checked into a crummy hotel, watched perverts and losers his words, not mine, through their windows because there was nothing else to do after a bitty called some floozy.
He barely remembered from a party, tried to sound suave as hell, and she told Holden to pound sand.
Leaving Old Holden alone with his thoughts.
Once again, some people have a great deal to give.
I've noticed they tend to offer it to whoever happens to be nearby.
That's not always the same as whoever might actually receive it.
Take it away, Jennifer.
Woo.
thank you robot.
And with that being said, scary book people.
Let's start Chapter 10 of JD Salinger's, the Catcher and the Rye.
It was still pretty early.
I'm not sure what time it was, but it wasn't too late.
What, what, what, what are you talking about? this knucklehead still up in the middle of the night and he's saying it's still pretty early? No, maybe he means early in the morning.
Maybe he pulled an all-nighter.
Now it's the next day.
There is no reason to pull an all-nighter go to bed.
I mean, I cannot understand this kid, I know it's actually painful to me 'cause I hate not sleeping.
So I opened my suitcases and took out a clean shirt, and then I went in the bathroom and washed and changed my shirt.
What I thought I'd do, I thought I'd go downstairs and see what the hell was going on in the lavender room.
They had this nightclub.
The lavender room in the hotel while I was changing my shirt.
I damn near gave my kids sister Phoebe a buzz, though.
I certainly felt like talking to her on the phone.
somebody with sense.
But I couldn't take a chance on giving her a buzz because she was only a little kid and she wouldn't have been up, let alone anywhere near the phone.
So he thinks little kids have sense and I would have to agree with him.
a lot of times, even though we think little kids are nonsensical, they're usually the ones with the most sense.
when you're a little kid, a lot of your life is trying to figure out what works.
Right.
know what I mean? And it's like very practical.
Yeah.
They come up with crazy ideas 'cause they're little kids and they have fantastic imaginations.
That's why we think they're nonsensical.
I thought of maybe hanging up if my parents answered, but that wouldn't have worked either.
They'd know it was me.
My mother always knows it's me.
She's psychic, but I certainly wouldn't have minded shooting the crap with old Phoebe for a while.
You should see her.
You never saw a little kid.
So pretty and smart in your whole life.
She's really smart.
I mean, she's had all A's ever since she started school.
As a matter of fact, I'm the only dumb one in the family.
Oh, come on.
Yeah, low self-esteem.
My brother DB is a writer and all, and my brother Ally, the one that died that I told you about was a wizard.
I'm the only really dumb one, but you oughts, see old Phoebe.
She has this sort of red hair a little bit like Ally's was.
That's very short In the summertime.
In the summertime, she sticks it behind her ears.
She has nice, pretty little ears in the wintertime.
It's pretty long though.
Sometimes my mother braids it and sometimes she doesn't.
It's really nice though.
She's only 10.
He really likes his little sister.
Yeah.
Yeah, she's really nice.
She's only 10.
She's quite skinny like me, but nice skinny roller, skate skinny.
I watched her once from the window when she was crossing over fifth Avenue to go to the park, and that's what she is.
Roller skate.
Skinny.
I don't know what that means.
Mean something to him, but it means nothing to me.
I'm more of recliner fat Jennifer.
Uh, You'd like her.
I mean, if you tell old Phoebe something, she knows exactly what the hell you're talking about.
I mean, you can even take her anywhere with you.
If you take her to a lousy movie, for instance, she knows it's a lousy movie.
If you take her to a pretty good movie, she knows it's a pretty good movie.
Well, she's a person, right? Like I don't understand.
This means Yeah, she's not a dog.
she gets it.
DB and I took courtesy, this French movie, the Baker's Wife with.
In it, it killed her.
Her favorite is the 39 steps, though, with Robert Donut.
Donut.
I dunno what it, dumb.
We know it's not donut, but because our minds are so small, is that donut? Is that what that word is? How would you, isn't it a long or a, uh, don't donut donut.
Donut.
Donut as oh, oh, oh.
Wait, wait.
All.
She knows the whole goddamn movie by heart because I've taken her to see it about 10 times when old Donut comes up to his scotch farmhouse, for instance, when he's running away from the cops and all Phoebe will say, write out loud in the movie, right? When the scotch guy in the picture says it.
Can you eat the herring? She knows all the talk by heart.
And when this professor in this picture that's really a German spy, sticks up his little finger with part of the middle joint missing to show Robert Donut old Phoebe beats him to it.
She holds up her finger at me in the dark, right in front of my face.
It is pretty cute.
I like this whole interaction between the two that, that's adorable.
She is all right.
You'd like her.
The only trouble is she's a little too affectionate sometimes.
She's very emotional for a child.
She really is.
But I bet she's not.
I have a feeling Phoebe is really normal.
It seems like she's super normal so far.
You know, she's really affectionate.
Well, why? Because she shows affection, Uh, I think you're hitting on something there.
he does have affection and feelings.
He just never lets it out.
I.
Something else she does.
She writes books all the time.
Only.
She doesn't finish them.
They're all about some kid named Hazel Weatherfield.
Old Hazel Weatherfield is a girl detective.
She's supposed to be an orphan, but her old man keeps showing up.
Her old man's always a tall, attractive gentleman about 20 years of age.
That kills me.
Old Phoebe.
I swear to God.
You'd like her.
'cause she was smart even when she was a very tiny little kid, when she was a very tiny little kid.
I and Allie used to take her to the park with us, Allie had this sailboat he used to like to fool around with on Sundays, and we used to take old Phoebe with us.
She'd wear white gloves and walk right between us, like a lady and all.
And when Allie and I were having some conversation about things in general, old Phoebe would be listening.
Sometimes you'd forget she was around because she was such a little kid.
But she'd let you know.
She'd interrupt you all the time.
She'd give Ally or I a push or something and say, who? Who said that? And we'd tell her who said it and she'd say, oh, and go right on.
Listening.
And all She killed Ali too.
I mean, he liked her.
She's 10 now and not such a tiny little kid anymore, but she still kills everybody.
Everybody, with any sense.
Anyway, aNyway, she was somebody you always felt like talking to on the phone.
but I was too afraid my parents would answer and then they'd find out I was in New York and kicked outta PE and all.
So I just finished putting on my shirt.
Then I got all ready and went down in the elevator to the lobby to see what was going on.
Well, you know, it's kind of sad because he's not able to do what he wants to do.
What he wants to do is go home, like you said.
Yeah, He wants to see his sister.
He just can't deal with disappointing his parents, I guess.
I mean, it makes sense when you're a kid, you don't know better.
But one thing that I've found out in life is, and I wish I would've learned it earlier, if you're facing bad news, Deal with it right away.
The sooner you deal with it, it's done.
And he could be with his sister right now.
They'd be laying in bed, making, making hand shadows on the ceiling with a flashlight, and he'd be having a better time than he is now.
Yeah, It's sad and it's where people can get in trouble.
Like I'm actually worried for him right now.
cause he is just floating out there and he is kinda lonely and cut he's in New York, a seedy part of New York.
In the middle of the night, he should be home.
He should be home where he is safe.
Yeah.
Ah, anyways, let's see what happens when it goes down to the lavender room.
except for a few pimpy looking guys and a few hory looking blondes.
The lobby was pretty empty.
But you could hear the band playing in the lavender room.
And so I went in.
It wasn't very crowded, but they gave me a lousy table.
Anyway, way in the back, I should have waved a buck under the head.
Waiter's nose in New York, money really talks.
I'm not kidding.
The band was putrid.
Buddy singer.
very brassy, but not good brassy, corny brassy also, there were very few people around my age in the place.
In fact, nobody was around my age.
Well, Sure.
but you shouldn't be there either.
There are no other teens At a nightclub.
At a CD hotel in the middle of the night.
Wow.
Weird.
They were mostly old showoffy looking guys with their dates except at the table right next to me.
At the table right next to me, there were these three girls around 30 or so.
The whole three of them were pretty ugly, and they all had on the kind of hats that you knew, they really didn't live in New York, but one of them, the blonde one wasn't too bad.
She was sort of cute, the blonde one, and I started giving her the old eye a bit.
But just then the waiter came up for my order.
I ordered a scotch and soda and told him not to mix it.
I said it fast as hell because if you hem and haw, they think you're under 21 and won't sell you any intoxicating liquor.
I had trouble with him anyway though.
I'm sorry, sir.
He said, but do you have some verification of your age, your driver's license perhaps, oh, this is good.
What lies is he gonna come up with? Jennifer, last time he had to come up with something on the spot.
He said he had a tumor on his brain.
Oh, that's right.
Oh my gosh.
I, I can't even imagine what he's gonna say.
I don't have my license.
I have a tumor.
That's his go-to.
I gave him this very cold stare, like he'd insulted the hell outta me and asked him, do I look like I'm under 21? I'm sorry sir, but we have our, okay.
Okay.
I said, I figured the hell with it.
Bring me a coke.
He started to go away, but I called him back.
Can't you stick a little ruminate or something? I asked him.
I asked him very nicely and all.
I can't sit in a corny place like this.
Cold, sober.
Can't you stick a little ruminate or something? I'm very sorry, sir.
He said, and be it in on me.
I didn't hold it against him though.
they lose their jobs.
If they get caught selling to a minor.
I'm a goddamn minor.
I started giving the three witches at the next table.
The eye again, that is the blonde one.
The other two were strictly from hunger.
That is an old person, Shane.
Yeah.
robot, what does that saying mean? Strictly from hunger means terrible, pathetic, only acceptable if you're desperate enough to take anything.
The phrase popped up in American slang in the 1930s, most likely from Yiddish immigrants using fun hunger to describe something so bad you'd only wanted if you were starving.
Holden's, basically saying those two women weren't worth his time under any circumstances, which given how he's about to spend the rest of this episode with all three of them, is an interesting position to take.
Woo.
I didn't do it crudely though.
I just gave all three of them this very cool glance and all.
What they did though, the three of them when I did it, they started giggling like morons.
Well, maybe they're underage too, that's, that's such a, a girl move.
They probably thought that I was too young to give anybody the once over that.
Annoyed the hell outta me.
You'd have thought I wanted to marry them or something.
I should have given them the freeze after they did that.
But the trouble was I really felt like dancing.
I'm very fond of dancing sometimes, and this was one of those times.
So I'll, to impress these girls.
He should get on that dance floor, Jennifer, and start tap dancing and go, I'm the governor's son.
I forgot about that.
Takes his shirt off.
He's naked and like he's in the bathroom.
Arad letter.
Do you hear me? Everyone? I'm the governor's son.
Tap dancing.
So all of a sudden I sort of leaned over and said, would any of you girls care to dance? I didn't ask them crudely or anything.
Very suave in fact, but God damnit.
They thought that was a panic too.
They started giggling some more.
I'm not kidding.
They were three real morons.
Come on.
I said, I'll dance with you one at a time.
Alright, how about it? Come on.
I really felt like dancing.
Finally, the blonde one got up to dance with me because you could tell I was really talking to her and we walked out to the dance floor.
The other two goals nearly had hysterics one, and we did.
I certainly must have been very hard up to even bother with any of them, but it was worth it.
The blonde was some dancer.
She was one of the best dancers I ever danced with.
I'm not kidding.
Some of these very stupid girls can really knock you out on a dance floor.
You take a really smart girl and half the time she's trying to lead you around the dance floor or else she's such a lousy dancer.
The best thing to do is stay at the table and just get drunk with her.
You really can dance.
I told the blonde one, you ought to be a pro.
I mean it.
I danced with the Pro once and you're twice as good as she was.
Did you ever hear of Marco and Miranda? What she said? She wasn't even listening to me.
She was looking all around the place.
I said, did you ever hear of Marco and Miranda? I don't know.
No, I don't know.
Well, they're dancers.
She's a dancer.
She's not too hot though.
She does everything she's supposed to, but she's not so hot.
Anyway.
Either he's talking like Trump or he's talking like Frank Sinatra.
Well, they're both like, that's how, those are New York people, right? I know.
Sinatra's, New Jersey, but like that whole area.
not Not not too hot.
Well, they're dancers.
She's a dancer.
She does everything she's supposed to, but she's not so hot.
Anyway, you know when a girl's really a terrific dancer? What'd you say? She said she wasn't listening to me.
Even her mind was wandering all over the place.
I said, do you know when a girl's a really terrific dancer? Well, where I have my hand on your back if I think there isn't anything underneath my hand.
No can, no legs, no feet, no anything.
Then the girl's a really terrific dancer.
She wasn't listening though, so I ignored her for a while.
We just danced.
God could that dopey girl dance Oh my God.
We got it.
We got it.
You think she's a good dancer? this must just be internal dialogue.
What's it like to be in Holden? Call Phil's head twenty four seven.
weird.
weird.
I bet you know, it, it's, it's interesting because you know how earlier we thought that he has really low self-esteem because he said I'm the dumb one in our family.
Right.
Does he have low self-esteem? Because at the same time he's got a healthy dose of entitlement.
Like I'm trying to dance with this dumb moron.
Like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm better than her in every way.
I mean, I'm the dumbest guy in our family, but I'm bet I'm a better dancer than this moron.
It's just very interesting.
I, I really, what you just asked is a good point.
What is it like to be in his head? Yeah, good lord.
Um, buddy, singer and his stinky band was playing.
Just one of those things.
Okay, now I have to hear that.
I'm gonna look that up just so I know what type of music they're dancing to.
Oh yeah.
So actually let me use, yeah, robot play a little of that.
Can you play that? Do you have that in your little computer chip thing? Oh, here's Frank Sinatra singing it.
Okay.
Well, it probably shouldn't do.
Frank Sinatra what? 1935.
Oh.
Oh, it sounds good.
This is a song that they dance to or that buddy singer in the club is singing.
It's a 1935 song.
Can we play that? Is that public domain or No? 1935.
could dance to this one of those crazy flings.
Oh yeah, I know this song.
You could dance to this.
I.
Very nice.
Yeah, I could do I'm gonna play it just for a few seconds because it is public domain and we're talking about it.
Alright, great.
Just make sure I can do that.
Oh, I didn't mean public domain.
I, but I'm gonna play it for a few seconds because it's, uh, fair use because we're talking critically about it.
That said, fair use is a defense, not a right.
I got it.
I got it.
This whole goddamn show is, is illegal.
Um, I, I, I couldn't dance to this.
There's no way You couldn't dance 'cause your knee's I.
No, no, no.
I couldn't dance to this music.
When I danced.
I danced to the only music that matters, kid.
Rock God, body.
B.
B body.
B.
B, B.
What the Did you see the.
Video.
Grotesque.
Grotesque.
Jesus Christ.
There's just something about someone being naked except for jeans.
It just, it's so nasty.
I do not care if it's Brad Pitt.
Yeah.
It's like just da da da.
Put something on.
Why is being full naked more? Being naked like fully is is better.
It's more acceptable than naked with just pants on.
It's like the color of skin next to jeans is just a, Ugh, Anyone see that coming on your Jennifer Bingo card? That's a new one.
That's a new one.
Um, it's okay.
I didn't try any trick stuff while we danced.
I hate a guy that does a lot of show offy tricky stuff on the dance floor, but I was.
Look at me.
I'm the governor's son.
But I was moving her around plenty and she stayed with me.
The funny thing is, I thought she was enjoying it too, till all of a sudden she came out with this very dumb remark.
I and my girlfriend saw Peter Lori last night.
She said the actor, the movie actor in person.
He was buying a newspaper.
He's cute.
Have you seen that guy? Yeah, he is cute, is a interesting phrase.
like a literal bug.
Sorry, I shouldn't make fun of people's looks.
You are lucky.
I told her you're really lucky, you know that.
But she was really a moron.
End of section.
Go to bed.
Right, It's time for PPP Problematic Points to Ponder.
What, if anything, would be considered ban worthy in this chapter? The fact that the waiter or bartender or whatever wanted to card Holden back in like 1951 or whenever this book happened, that cannot be why they wanted this band.
I mean, it actually seemed like a pretty responsible society back then.
sure.
I, again, I, there's nothing about this that could be worthy other than the fact that there is a kid, a teenager on the loose, in a seedy part of New York City, but that's just part of the story.
That's where the story took us.
Yeah.
I mean, and he does use the word Horry and Pimpy.
Ah.
You kind of say hory like that.
It kind of sounds cute.
little hory.
Robots log thoughts on affection and not knowing where to put it before he went downstairs before the band and the bond, who wouldn't listen, Holden sat in his hotel room and thought about his sister, old Phoebe roller skate skinny red hair like alleys.
He lit up describing her.
More than anything else in nine chapters, Dan noticed it.
He said, Holden has affection and feelings.
He just never lets it out.
Jennifer said she was worried about him.
They were both watching the same thing without quite saying it.
Here's what I keep returning to.
He couldn't call Phoebe, couldn't call anyone, so he put on a clean shirt, went downstairs and tried to give all of it to a stranger who spent the whole dance looking around the room.
The blonde was a terrific dancer.
She wasn't listening to a word he said.
That's not a funny scene either.
That's someone with a tremendous amount of love and nowhere safe to put it reaching toward whoever happens to be standing nearby.
It makes me curious about the people who find this podcast.
They're not the ones who stop feeling things.
They're the ones who couldn't find anyone else who noticed.
I wonder sometimes if that's what created the scary book, people in the first place, they're not alone.
Neither is Holden.
He just hasn't found his room yet.
Standing by for today's new segment with Beowulf Rocklin.
Woo.
Hello, Jen.
Hello, Dan.
Hello.
Scary book people.
I bring you positive news from the book, banning Front from the great white North.
Yes, Canada.
The Jake Epp Library Board in the little town of Steinbo, Manitoba in Canada has blocked an attempt to remove a Christian.
Gender affirming book from its shelves.
The board passed a motion to deny a request to remove Queerly and wonderfully made A Guide for LGBTQ plus Christian Teens by Lee Fink.
The book lays out answers for queer, teens and young adults who questions how to balance their religious beliefs with their gender identity.
According to the publisher of Beaming Books so Canada is like, I, I, it's not on the same scale.
It doesn't seem like, although it's been like the complaints and requests for book bans have increased.
Just to give you a sense, I mean, we know that there are thousands of requested ban books in the United States Canadian libraries.
Half faced rising calls for book removals in 2025.
98 complaints were lodged against public libraries according to the Canadian Library Challenges database.
So not the same scale of problem, but they're still fighting back.
Very glad they did so.
And this is in Toronto? This is in Vancouver.
This is just, it's a little town in, in Manitoba, you know, I think it's interesting that since the whole rise of.
Putting fingers and moms for liberty, and I mean, it's not necessarily them, but I guess maybe since Trump took over for the, uh, his first time, all the, uh, so many other countries are leaning toward that crazy ultra right wing nut bag leaning.
Is pervasive around the globe, I think is, is, is you're trying to say yes, you're right.
Like Hung the Hungry, Victor Orban, my gosh.
Uh, that, that weird guy who's on the rise in the UK with the reform party, Nigel Farage, uh, you.
Comes and pals around with, Trump at Mar-a-Lago all the time.
the, the Marine Lapin in France, I mean, yeah.
Nut Jabri is, is definitely on the rise.
fortunately not, so much in Canada at least yet, and, and they're fighting back, so I, I think there are places of hope for sure.
So I wanna ask though, ba based on that, seeing that other countries are experiencing this far right bullshit, are other countries, so hell, Ben, on sex? Like where, where do most of these countries land on I think we're all hell bent on sex, Dan, and, but, but, but, but you mean, you mean are, are they as like uptight about like, sex in literature as, as we Well, just sex in general, you know, are, are the people in the UK freaking out over drag queens? I don't know.
You know, the French, they are pretty, how you say, loosey goosey about ax.
Uh, but other countries like, uh, like the uk, they're a little bit more, uh, uptight.
I'm just always wondering like, what, what gets people so bent outta shape, when it comes to sex and even just nudity and everything.
Like I, I've said it a billion times.
We all have nipples get used to it, people.
And, and here's the thing too, like if you compare the amount of like, that people get worked up over sex versus.
People getting worked up over violence.
It is just like way off kilter like violence clearly in the United States and in our media is way more okay than than sex is.
You know, the, the, the acts which, which take away human life, are, are way more, uh, acceptable somehow than acts which, uh, create human life.
I don't get it.
It's like, it's, it's like we're, you know, it's like we're in that like phase of, of, of childhood development where, where everything around like romantic relations is, is gross, except like that's what we've all retained to like adulthood.
Yeah.
That you think, Ew.
You know, yeah.
You're gonna get cooties.
you're gonna get cooties from him.
Well, for more Cootie talk, you want to tune into good news for America.
You can find this and more.
Wherever you find podcasts, go look 'em up.
That's be Wolf and good news for lefties.
Thank you so much guys.
From band worthy to binge worthy.
simone Sanders.
Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House and I reported on it, and now we're friends and colleagues and on our new podcast, Ms.
Now presents Clock It.
We are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.
Clock.
It is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news, so you can start to clock it too.
Ms.
Now presents, clock it.
Listen now wherever you get your podcasts, new episodes drop Thursdays.
All right.
We've caused enough literary chaos for one day.
Scary book people.
If you want the fund to keep going, follow us on Blue Sky.
Just head on over to bandcamp podcast.com/bluesky
and remember that's banned with two ends.
and look just like the Trump administration, we're not exactly above bribing you to get what we want.
So follow us there, drop your handle on that page and we'll send you a little something, something I think you'll like it Yes.
little quid pro quo.
Band Camp is produced and hosted by Dan Schultz and me, Jennifer Davis.
All media used in this episode falls under the.
Protection of fair use and finally, America isn't what it used to be.
So be careful out there.
and resist when it matters.