Latest / UK Column Radio / Stopping the Establishment in Its Tracks- Lessons from the Front Line of British Politics — with Raja Miah MBE

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Stopping the Establishment in Its Tracks- Lessons from the Front Line of British Politics — with Raja Miah MBE · UK Column Radio

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Good afternoon, and welcome to UK Column. I'm Ben Rubin
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: and I'm delighted to be joined once again by Rajer Meyer.
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: Raja is a.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Journalist and a campaigner who for the past six years
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: has been raising awareness and blowing the whistle frankly on
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: the issue of grooming gangs in his hometown of Oldham.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: We had a fantastic and really jaw dropping conversation at
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: the start of this year about that, and I highly
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: recommend that you go and watch that interview on the
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: UK Column website. Today we're going to delve into some
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: of the practical action that Raja's been taking at a
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: ground level in the local political system in order to
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: hold local counselors to account, because we think that there
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: are some lessons that can be learned for people all
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: around the country in what he's been doing. So first
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: of all, let's say hello to Raja and thank you
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: once again for coming along to talk with us here
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: at UK Column.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: My pleasure, Ben, thank you for having me. I really
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: enjoyed last time, so thank you for that.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good, we enjoyed it too, Yes, absolutely, it was
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: a great discussion, definitely, and I'm really looking forward to
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: today because one of the things that we touched on
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: in that previous interview is the fact that you've been
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: very politically active. You've had a lot of success in
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: unseating corrupt counselors in Oldham Council. I think you said
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: at the time, you've got from forty we've got the
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Labor Council from forty seven to twenty seven seats, right,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: So you're actually having a real impact in the political
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: system and really looking forward to finding out more about
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: how you've done that. Basically, Well, I guess as a
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: starting point, it'd be really good to hear a bit
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: about your background in the political system, because I know
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: this is something that you've spent many years training in
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: and it'd be good to give people a bit of
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: bit of context on that.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Sure, in some ways it's unfair, really, Ben, I came
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: back into a small northern town where the political expertise
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: was what you'd expect in towns such as mine, and
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: I came from a very different place, and so I
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: was at an advantage from the beginning when I got
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: involved in this. My background twenty years or so, twenty
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: years at least working at the highest level in government
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Satin government task forces, sat in rooms with far back
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: as when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, and so on
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: and so on. My last sint I did in terms
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: of politically was working for an organization called the Young Foundation,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Michael Young's organization which trained new generation of political leaders.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: So that's what I did for for a stint. I'm
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: genuinely considered to be, if not an expert, more than
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: competent in grassroots campaigning and mobilizing communities to take civic
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: action on issues that matter to them. So I came
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: from that background in the UK and also internationally, I've
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: I've traveled. I spent a substantial amount of my career
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: working in what's known as counter extremism. So I spent
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: some time working across the world and sitting in rooms
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: with with various world leaders who had managed to overthrow
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: despotic regime we shall we say loosely ben So I
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: had that as well in terms of understanding how to
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: go about it, and when when I started, I quickly
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: realized the way in which we would have to fight
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: against the establishment. As such, the political class in my
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: hometown was no different to how insurgents had fought against
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: despotic regimes elsewhere, so we deployed the same tactics here
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: in a small town and it devastated them because they'd
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: never come across any anything like it. We mobilized communities,
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: we supported them to find the courage. If you follow
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: any of my work, my strap line is do not
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: fear them. And that was for a reason. Right at
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: the beginning. I knew where we were taking this, when
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: we were taking this to a place where we would
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: be confronting and be pushed back by some of the
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: most powerful politicians in the country, and they tried everything
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: to shut us down. And when I talk about some
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: of the most powerful politicians, I include now Ministers of
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: States such as Jim McMahon, MP Debbie Abrahams is the
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: chair of a Select Committee, Angela Rayn who is the
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Deputy Prime Minister, and of course Andy Burnham is the
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Greater Manchester mayor. People are often shocked and surprised and
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: disheartened that the country doesn't run the way we expect
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: it to run, and our democracy isn't as clean as
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: it should be. So people are shocked in all them.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: We were prepared. Now, we got the people prepared not
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: to trust these people and to expect these people to
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: come out against us and use every weapon at their
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: disposal to try and silence us, and that includes lawful
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: and unlawful means, including mobilizing Greater Manchester Police. To this day,
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: there's a Greater Manchester Police operation named your viewers can
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: type it in. It's called Operation Hexagon. And Operation Hexagon
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: was specifically designed and launched to counter myself and those
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: people who aligned themselves with Meat, who did nothing other
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: than simply speak out over the cover up of the
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: gang grape of children, and most importantly, mobilized politically mobilized
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: to hold politicians involved to account, and that included removing
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: them at the ballot box. And that's you know, that's
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: what I did. That's what we did. And and I
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: don't think they knew what item and I don't think
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: to this day they quite understand what what they took
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: on in terms of you know, this is a historically
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: a radical town as well, you know, the working class
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: mill town of ald them historical strong history with the Suffragettes,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: were the Chartists, even the Luddites were from here then.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So there's all of that in the DNA of the people,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: and it didn't take it didn't take a lot, if
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: I'm honest with you, because people were rightfully angry, disillusion
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: marginalized then. And this was five years ago, six years,
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: six years ago when we started, and it's a pattern
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: now repeated across the country. We've just been we were
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: just fed up as being called racist or raising legitimate concerns.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: You were trained by the Young Foundation. We talk about
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: the Young Foundation a lot. You've basically gone rogue.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: Roger.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: I like this because they were training you to be
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: someone that was gonna promote the regime agenda, the despotic
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: regime agenda. That you've basically turned all that training back
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: against them.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: By the sound of.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: It, that's exactly what what I've done, Ben, And for
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: me it was I came into this clean and I
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: will leave this space clean, you know, in the sense
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: that my intentions and my agenda was always to improve
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: the lives of working class communities, safeguard children, and protect communities,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: build build stronger communities. I say this to all the
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: people who come and find me, because we I do
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: sadly attract some people who who I would describe as
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: extreme right or far right, and I say to them,
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: right from the outsets. My purpose in this space has
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: always been to find a way in which we can
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: all live together. You know, so some people struggle with that,
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: but the people the right struggle with that in the
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: same way that people who are left historically struggled with that.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: I am what I say I am now. I'm a
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: product of a northern working class town. My entire life
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: has been framed by positive experiences through interacting with people
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: from a whole host of backgrounds. And you might can
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: help them, then I have a duty to help them.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: And it's as simple as that. But the Young Foundation
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: was interesting. It was very, very very interesting. Yeah, very good.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: So let's dig into some of the specifics, right, because
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: you've talked about the political landscape. You've mentioned some key
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: people in the top levels of the national government, some
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: of whom and hum are also operating in your local area.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: So Jim McMahon was the former leader of Oldham Council.
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: He's now in the Cabinet. I believe he's responsible for devolution.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Certainly he's doing something very dangerous. At some point. You'll
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: pick up a bit, no doubt in terms of a
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: changing the way in which politicians can be held to account,
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: and the undercurrent of that is that what they're trying
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: to do is they're claiming the raising standards of counselors
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: and local government. Actually, what they're trying to do is
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: censor opposition. And they're trying to censor opposition as a
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: direct consequence of the experiences him and other Labor Party
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: politicians have encountered in Noldon. So they're trying to strengthen
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: the laws through which they can jump on opposition counselors
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: who we elect or people like us elect to represent us.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: So there's something more sinister going on that perhaps you
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: and some of your team will have a look at.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Is he announced the statement. I think he issued a
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: statement this week or last week about this, and it's
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: going under the radar.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Ben all right, well, what's this space on that one.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: We're certainly going to have to follow that up. And
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: I would like to maybe as we get into it,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: talk a bit more about this new devolved system of
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Metro mayors and how you're personally seeing things changing. But
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: just to start with, what are you looking at at
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: a council level when you're analyzing the current political systems.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about if people are watching this, are sitting
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: in their own hometown around the UK, wherever it might be.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: What's the current structure look like? What are the democratic
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: processes that people should be aware of? Areus a lot
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: of people, as you know, who are very disengaged from
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: this stuff? Now you know, what are the nuts and
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: bolts of the system and where do you focus when
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: you want to influence it and you want to have
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: an impact and to get things to change.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, first and foremost, I think what I recognize as
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: soon as I entered this space in my hometown is
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: the vast majority of people are politically ignorant as to
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: the mechanics of how local government works. And that includes
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: many of the counselors. So in all them, we have
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: sixty councilors, twenty wards. Each ward has three councilors and
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: they're re elected on a year by year basis, and
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: there's a follow year for the fourth year. So that's
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: that's how it tradditionally works. And historically, and I don't know,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: bore your listeners, but historically there was a system of
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: governance at local council level where there was a committee
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: style structure where there'd be various committees and councilors from
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: across all political parties would get to sit on these
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: committees and have us saying decision making. Around the time
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Tony Blair came in, most of that changed and it's
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: something called a cabinet style approach to local governance was
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: introduced where the ruling party essentially identified eight or nine
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: councilors and they would sit together and make a decision
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: on everything well, so whilst they had committees and advisory boards,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: they were all really irrelevant. It was eight or nine
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: councilors and a few years ago Sheffield Council was the
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: first of the councils that's objected to this cabinet style
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: because it takes democracy further away from people then and
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: at a local government level that's never a good thing.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: So Sheffield Council went through a process where they were
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: getting rid of this cabinet style and returning to a
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: committee style. So we were struggling right from the outset
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: because it was a cabinet style government local council run.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: So our only opportunity really to engage was in the
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: full council meetings. Now, in the past, full council meetings
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: would be held once every month, and the public could
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: be invited into public questions. There's minutes of meetings that
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: the committees report back on, and we can either use
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: public questions to screw and eyes what's taking place, or
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: we can work with counselors opposition counselors who are bought
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: into our our viewpoint to be our representatives in the
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: council chamber. Again, unfortunately, what they did there was should
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: they shut down democracies? So these full council meetings that
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: were once once a month and now once every two
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: or three months, I think there's only like five a year.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: So how do you know they're at every opportunity that
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: they can. They're making it harder and harder to be
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: held to account public questions. Historically, you could submit a
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: question and then you'd be invited in it, and you
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: could ask the question directly yourself. That has now changed
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: where you've submitted them to a council officer and it
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: goes through a system where the mayor then reads out
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: your questions for you. And of course the questions are
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: now all loaded with labor party plants. In my town,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: they're all former councilors, count of friends and relatives, so
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: it's every opportunity they're trying to shut democracy down. If
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: you were to come to my town and go to
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: the next full council meeting, and I say this from experience,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: it is easier to get a visit in a prison
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: and get through security in a prison than it is
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: to get into the council meeting in the town where
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: I come from. All of this is intentional, which means
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: which means what we've been doing has been working, because
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: every month, every other month, they're coming up with another strategy,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: another another attempt try and hinder the public involvement in
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: local decision making. So what have we been doing?
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: I sit here.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: It started during COVID and I would run online workshops
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: using zoom. This is completely alien to me. When I started,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: I'd never used a camera or anything like this. And
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: I would run online workshop and I would teach people
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: how to decipher the various elements of what goes on
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: in the council meeting and identify at every level where
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: we have the opportunities to scrutinize, expose, and raise our
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: voices to challenge the wrongdoing that was taking place. So
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: whilst my focus was and remains the cover up of
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: the grooming and gang grape of children. I'm very clear
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: that that is a symptom of an underlying failure in
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: our democratic system, and we need to get to addressing that.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: So we do all of that. We talk, we discuss,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: maybe we have sixteen to twenty at a time, and
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: by the time, by the time I had finished, then
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: we had a small army of mainly pensioners, if I'm
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: honest with you, a small army of pensioners who had
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: become experts on engaging in local democracy, in holding democratic
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: systems and structures to account. And the Council hated it
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: because they'd never come across anything like it. People asking questions,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: asking the right questions, and not going away until they'd
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: either got an answer or we'd got a response that
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: merely confirmed what we believed in the first place, and
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: we knew that the local media wasn't on our side.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: In fact, it's only I think it was only about
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: three weeks ago that the editor of the Older Evening
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: Chronicle unprecedented and unprecedented. Only three weeks ago, the editor
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: of the Older Evening Chronicle came out and accused the
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Council of corruption. Prior to that, the local media was
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: controlled by the local authority. So we had social media
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: and we had a Facebook page, and the council repeatedly
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: attempted to close our Facebook page down. The Labor Party
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: repeatedly attempted the Facebook were pandering to that. So we struggled.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: We did struggle for a long time, but we managed
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: to have our own voice. I think is what I'm
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: saying to you using social media, and because they can't
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: control social media that way, everything that was happened in
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: the council chamber, every document that has been released, every
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: nugget of information we were getting, we were then amplifying
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: via social media channels and WhatsApp groups. And by the
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: time the elections came along, we'd already crowdfunded leaflets to
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: do two things. One was to discredit the counselors who
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: blocked us, as in blocked a public inquiry into the
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: gang grape of children. And the second thing was we
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: had capacity, build, trained, motivated, encouraged, identified all of those things,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: a whole host of independent and opposition counselors who were
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: placed to challenge for these seats. And then what we
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: did was we went back out and educated people to
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: get behind one candidate not to split the vote. And
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: because we came from this from a position of impartiality.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: I'm not a conservative, I'm not a lived there and
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: I know I wasn't aligned to any of the independents
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: we supported. We just supported the best candidate possible on
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: the promise from them that once they got in they
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: would support government intervention in the town. And it took
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: us five five years. It took us five years and
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: probably about one hundred of us if I'm managed, with
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: one hundred of us in a core team, and we
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: decimated the council. They went from forty seven this is
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: a safe labour town. They went from forty seven down
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: to twenty seven. Of course it helped. It helped when
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: we had imbeciles that we that were a post to us.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: So first and foremost we had a council leader from
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Faalsworth who was called Sean Fielding. Sean Fielding was infamous
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: infamously held up his ripped underpants online just after he'd
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: he'd been forced to announce the an inquiry into the
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: into the gang grape of children. So that didn't help him,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: and he called it all bare face lies. He stood
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: up in the council chamber called it bare face lies.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: And one of the when one of the elder elderly
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: women went to the council meeting and asked the public question,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: it was like a for me as a campaign, it
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: was like a lost three win. He stood up and
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: he marched every councilor out of the council chamber twice
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: rather than answer a simple question regarding the employment of
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Shaber armored in Oldham Council. So he was, he was,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: he was, you know, he was. He just added fuel.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Really the leader leader of the council. It made made
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: our made our work easier. We then had a council
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: leader called a Rude Shah. Now a Rude Shah was
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Jim McMahon's worked in Jim McMahon's office previously, so she's
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: very close to Jim mcmhon. She's now currently the chair
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: of the Constitutional Committee of the Labor Party nationally. So
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: this is a powerful woman, you know, chair of the
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Constitutional Committee of the Labor Party. She unfortunately or fortunately
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: fortunately perhaps for the campaign, unfortunately for the town, has
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: direct links with the organized crime.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: And this is a.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Pattern when it comes to in particular Pakistani politicians in
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: the Labor Party and their associations with organized crime. It's
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: not racist, it's just a shame.
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: It's a pattern. It's a regular pattern. There are immediate
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: family members involved in either the heroin trade or in
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: serious gangland affairs. Arud Shah's brother is a convicted money launderer.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: You can't pick your family. It's fine. And he was
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: younger when he did it, so I have no issue
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: with that really. But the issue with Aarud Shah is
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: when she campaigned to get elected in the war where
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: we took her out from which at Chadditon South, she
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: went out celebrating the night of her election read Labor
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Party rosette with a man called Zea Hussein. Now I
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: name people because all of this is a public matter
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: of public record. Zea Whussein is a dangerous criminal who
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: kidnapped and tortured a couple of young men in the town.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: He was convicted for it. When the police turned up,
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: they found blood splattered all over the wall. Now what
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: is the leader of a council doing partying? And not
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: just randomly. They both had read labor Artie rosettes under
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: you know, on under jackets, So that just shows the
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: links organized crime has in the town. So zea who's
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: saying convicted kidnapper, convicted torturer out celebrating an election victory
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: wearing a Labour Party rosette with the leader of the town.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: She then it then emerged, And when I first got
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: the information, I couldn't I didn't really believe it. She
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: has she describes as a childhood friendship and I and
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I won't speculate any further than than that, she has
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: a childhood friendship with a man called Mohammad Imran Ali.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Mohammed Imran Ali is locally known as by his gangland
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: name irish Immi. Irish Immi is one of dale Kregan's gang.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: He was the getaway driver of the cop killer dale Kregan.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: One of these police officers that were murdered came from
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: my town. So this is the getaway driver of the
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: cop killer dale Kregan, with a direct association with the
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: leader of Aldham Council. Of course, he's got convictions for
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: heroin dealing. And as I've maintained from the outset, the
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: very same sort of men, and I'm not saying this
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: is him, but the very same sorts of men, the
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: very same sort of gangs that were involved in the
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: peddling of heroin in towns such as mine also peddled children.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: And that's not that's not anything that the police would
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: dispute either. It's a matter of fact, there's a direct
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: correlation between the heroin dealers and and those who who
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: trafficked children. So when that news got out and we
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: put it on leaflets and we went out and campaigned,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: it's again it was easy to remove, or it should
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: have been easy to remove, because I'm looking at your
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: face and I'm imagining the face of people who listen.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: This is the chair of the National Constitutional Committee of
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: the Labor Party, right advisor of Jim McMahon, MP, also
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: previously worked for Debbie Abrahams close friend of Angela Rayner,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: direct relationships with some of the most dangerous criminals in
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: the country, and she celebrates them. She celebrates her relationships
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: because these men at election time go and collect postal votes.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: So we knew all that was taking place. So we
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: mobilized our community in Chaddington South where she was standing,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: and we removed her, and we removed her with a conservative,
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: unprecedented This is a working class, northern working class town
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: and the best candidate in that ward was a conservative,
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: and we mobilized and we got him elected. In the
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: run up to the election, men, in terms of how
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: you take these people out and to be ready to
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: know what happens. The police arrested me at the instructions
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: of A Rude Shah and at the instructions of one
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: of her friends, the wife of a guy called Anthony
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Granger who the police had shot dead in Salford a
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: number of years ago. Her name is Gail Granger. They
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: arrested me at the instructions of both a Rudshah and
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Gail Granger to stop me campaigning. The police officer, the
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: detective inspector, very specifically told me if I would continue
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: to campaign, I would be locked up. Of course, I
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: continued to campaign, and it took me three years then
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: for those cases to collapse against me. But I knew,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: I mean part of me knew what I was getting
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: myself involved in when I decided that this cancer had
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: had to be purged and you wanted to talk about
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Metro mayres at some point, and that's when I realized
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: how multifaceted vote and the different layers were of the establishment,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: who were out to get us because the police's attempt
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: to prosecute me was a malicious prosecution. They don raided
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: my house. Eight police officers don raided my house. I
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: shared it with my six year old daughter at the time,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: and they dragged me away without even having taken a
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: statement from either a Rude Shah or gil Granger.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: And when they.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Dragged me away, the newspapers, because the newspapers, the local
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: media were involved, the newspapers ran the headline that had
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: been arrested as a child sex offender as part of
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: a child sex offending investigation.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: And that was.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Probably a law point. But we kept going, you know,
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: we kept going. BN We leaf fleoted, we campaigned, We
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: knocked on doors. This is old fashioned boots on the around,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: knock on doors, speak to people. We'd we'd got a
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: cross community team working with us, some of my team,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: they're like everything from retired soldiers to pensioners to teenage mothers.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: You know, we you know, all all of our cross
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: community team, and people believed uspect when we knocked on
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: doors with our leaflets and we spoke to him, as
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I'm sure the people who are listening to this, we're not.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: We're not some far right nutcases as these as the
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: establishment tried to present us as as that we definitely
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: aren't the criminals, despite them trying to portray us as criminals,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: and we removed our Rude Shah from power. This was
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: a second Labor Party leader in a row we'd removed
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: from power. And at the time, because we've removed her
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: from power, the Labor Party were in opposition, stood up
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: in Parliament and claimed it was a misogynistic campaign because
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: she was a woman. It was a racist campaign and
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: used any any and every identity label they could use
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: to try and silencers. We've got momentum coming all this time.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: In the background, we've got opposition counselors taking motions for
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: public inquiries, asking very uncomfortable questions about how public money
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: has been spent for instance. And again I name names
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: and I have the evidence to back this up, so
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: you don't have to worry about any of that. There's
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: a man in my town called Frank Rothwell. He's famous.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: He rode across the Atlantic for charity, is a character
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: and he owns the local football club, owns all them
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: athletic football club. Frank Rothwell. When we were taking out
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Rude Shah for reasons only he knew, went out and
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: delivered leaflets. He wasn't a candidate or anything, delivered leaflets
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: promoting and supporting Arud Shah. A few years later of
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: the subsequent Yeah, Frank croftwell By after his bottold the
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: athletic the council and this is a cash strapped council
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: provide a private football club, you know, privately owned business,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: one million pounds for its pitch last week. They've just
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: announced that they're supporting them with a further five million pounds.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: And I think what I'm trying to say to you,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Ben is that in towns such as mine, when you
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: campaign against the establishment, you're campaigning against what is a
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: completely rotten borough and there's no hiding of what's taking place.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: They're doing it in lane sight. So when Andy Burnham
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: gets himself involved, and this is you know, the King
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: of the North, want to be feature Prime Minister, Greater Manchester,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: metro mayor and his pr machinery of how great he is,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: and he gets himself involved in the cover up, You've
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: got to wonder were this leads and how endemic it
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: is across towns and cities. Were political parties and demographics
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: such as in all of them a line and what
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: we do about it because it has nearly killed me.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: It's been six years and he has nearly killed me
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: to get us this far, and we still know where near.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: And I'll be honest with you know, we managed, we're fighting,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: and we're holding our own, but we nowhere near cleaning
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: up this town.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I almost don't know what to say in the face
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: of that, Like, it's just astonishing, you know, when we
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: talk and I hear about some of the stuff that
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: you've seen and that you've had to deal with. I
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: think the main thing that jumps out to me from
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: that is that if you're going to get into this
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: area people listening, then you need you need some bravery, basically,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: and someone's got to take a position of leadership like
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Roger's taking up in Oldham, to galvanize people and to
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: hold these politicians to account ultimately. Now I'm not suggesting
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: for a second, by the way, that every council is
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: going to be the same as Oldham's, right, because the
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: issues that we're talking about here are particularly mucky.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: I think, let's just put it like that.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: But a lot of the discussion that we have a
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: lot of certainly what have we see in the mainstream
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: media on a day to day basis is all about
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: national politicians, you know, the kids Starmer's and the Boris
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Johnson's and whoever else you might want to want to
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: talk about, you know, Nigel Ferrades, whoever it might be.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: But actually where the rubber really meets the road in
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: terms of policy, like where stuff actually gets done, where
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: it happens, where the shovels meet the ground. That's at
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: a local council level, which is why what we're talking
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: about here is so important. And you know, you've just
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: recounted a lot of work which has been success for
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: you're still grinding it out. You've got your small army
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: of pensioners. I love that idea, Like you've got a
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: core group of people who have been enabled with an
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: understanding of how the system works. And you know, at
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: some point I would love to talk to you about
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: whether we can run some sessions potentially for our members
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: or whatever else it might be.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we should, we should.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: We should do that definitely, because ultimately it's a process
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: of exposing what's going on inside the council in the
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: face of all of these things that they've introduced in
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: order to try to stop that from happening, and it
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: sounds like they're making up lots of elaborate new rules
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: and introducing people into the into the situation and having
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: people walk out of council chambers and anything that they
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: can do to stop what you're up to is they'll
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: chuck it into the mix, including arresting you, right, you know,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: like this is this has been all out war really
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: that you've been subjected to. But I don't think I
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: think that it necessarily has to be at that level
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: for anyone it wants to get involved in this, because
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: you aren't necessarily in your average council going to be
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: dealing with the issue of grooming games, for example. But
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: it might just be that we're looking at the implementation
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: of some of the other global policies that are coming
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: down a track, whether it's fifteen minutes cities or you know,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: the introduction of new experimental energy systems or whatever it
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: might be. You know, those things only get implemented because
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: of local councils, and if we want to have an
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: impact on the national agenda, then I think that's the
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: best place to focus and ultimately you've had, you have
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: had a success, right, so you've got from You've got
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: the Labor So if I remember correctly, you've got sixty
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: councilors on the council. They used to be forty seven
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Labor that's now down to twenty seven, not least through
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: the efforts of you and the group that you've been
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: working as part of.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're in the minority position, but we've gone further
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: than that. I mean, we've done something which I chuckle
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: at at the last council meeting, what we managed to
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: do was have an extraordinary council meeting. I think I
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: mentioned it to you last time we're on we I
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: was pushing this idea of extraordinary council meetings. We maneuvered
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: even the Labor Party councilors into a position. We maneuvered
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: them into a position where every counselor Labor conservative live
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: them independent the sectarians. We maneuver them in such a
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: way because we've got the town watching Ben and what
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: we're doing, and they know how we'll react. Because that's
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: you know how it works, isn't it democracy? If it's open,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: if it's transparent and you can see what the decisions
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: they're making and you're informed, and that they've got less
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: wriggle room to do the wrong thing. We forced every
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: counselor to reject, to vote, to eject Evet Cooper's local
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: inquiry with this CASEY called Tom Craver because it's toothless,
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: you know, there's no statutory powers, and demand that the
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: Home Secretary look at it again and for a public inquiry.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: So we got Labor Party counselors. We went further than
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: just to make them a minority opposition. We forced them
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: to vote with spend. And the reason we managed that
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: was because of the pressure we put them under. And
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: that's politics, isn't it. You know it's about It's about
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: leveraging public opinion and applying pressure in the right way
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: at the right time to get the results you want.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: And it doesn't matter. I agree with you, it doesn't
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: matter what the theme is. And for the vast majority
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: of people, the themes aren't dangerous. Now what we're doing
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: is dangerous, but the themes aren't dangerous, but the methodologies
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: are saying you've got to learn to understand how the rule,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: how the game operates, where the leverage points are, were
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: your most effective from the outside in and how you
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: can maximize the resources that you have to achieve the
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: change you want. And that's essentially political campaign.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Being on with the truth, right. I mean, what you're
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: talking about, the mechanics of it are quite simple. Right,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: So you've basically got accountl that is corrupt. You are
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: doing things on a consistent basis to reveal that corruption
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: by questioning them in a systematic way, knowing what questions
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: to ask and when inserting yourself into the process and
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: interfering with them as much as possible, and then taking
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: what you're finding through that additional kind of process of revelation, right,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: because things are being revealed to you, taking that information,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: just going telling people you know.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: So, actually, when you're I'm guessing.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: Because this is this is you said that these elections
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: happen every year.
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: So is there like, are.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Is there a season when you're out doing going door
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: to doors?
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: The local elections are are in May every year. There's
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: not one this year because it's a follow year, because
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: last year was like an all out election because the
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Boundary Commission change things. So but what we normally do is,
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: you know, from January till the end of January, once
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: it gets a bit darker to May, we're outdoor knocking
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: NonStop with leaflets with crowd from the leaflets, but prior
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: to that, in the autumn, we tend to be educating
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: people online using Zoom, using whatever the platforms are. And
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: then we also work directly with the people we get elected,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: like the councilors because and we're coming up short though, Ben,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: and we need to get better at it, but we're
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: learning as we're going along as well, because a lot
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: of the councilors are just people who come forward and
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: get elected, are unprepared and particularly if they're independent counselors,
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: they just don't have the scaffolding around them to be
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: able to navigate what's taking place, and a lot a
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: lot of them get wooed. Sadly, a lot of them
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: get wooed. It's like the lib Dems when they went
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: into coalition government and the Conservatives has played them, gave
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: them ministerial cars and briefcases, and then before they knew it,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: did agree to everything that the Conservatives wanted. Well, it's
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: no different to that in legal local government. It's just
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: a sad state of affairs. They get invited into a
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: room by the chief executive and the drinks will come
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: out and they'll they'll get put on, you know, something
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: like the head of planning, and they'll be there'll be
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: an additional allowance of ten thousand pounds, which doubles the
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: salary of a counselor. And you know, humans are people
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: are what they are, and we struggled with some of that.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: But we're getting better. We are getting better at it.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: And I'm not being negative. It's just we've just been
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: on a journey ourselves, ben So, and we're getting better
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: and better. Ultimately, Really, what needs to happen is that
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: one of the mainstream parties needs to clean its act
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: up and and take this head on. But when it
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: comes to child abuse, it's across all of them, isn't it.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: You know, look at the Conservatives. They were in power
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: for fourteen years. They could have and should have launched
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: an inquiry into this. It wasn't the Volta base, it
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: wasn't no politicians, but they didn't.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think I'm holding my breath for any
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: of the mainstream parties to sort things out. And your
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: point about people getting how would you describe it enticed
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: into the machinery of the States once they get elected. Right,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: It's probably a nice way of saying it. Right, Let's
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: not say they get compromised and corrupted when they when
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: they get into power.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: But you know, that's kind of what's going on.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: But you just have to deal with it on a
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: case by case basis ultimately, don't you So just okay, So,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: so I'm kind of I'm learning a lot from this.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: This is really because I've been very sort of uninterested
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: in the political process for a long time, and particularly
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: council elections. I don't think I've ever voted in the
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: council election. I've voted in national elections, but never in
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: the council election.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: It sounds like this.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: There's quite a lot of variation then from location to location, right,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: So you know, in terms of you know, you mentioned
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: the difference between the what did you call it, committee
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: style and cabinet style, where you've got fewer counselors. You've
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: got people who meet once a month, You've got some
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: that meet just five or six times a year. And
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: so actually, people if they're thinking about becoming more politically active,
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: they'll have to go for a process of analyzing their
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: own counselor and seeing what the kind of the nuances
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: are in the idiosyncrasies of their own local area. But
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: broadly speaking, they're all they're all doing similar stuff.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: What you essentially have is either a committee style, which
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: is rare, or a cabinet style. The cabinet style basically
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: means the party with the most you know, with a majority,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: decide what happens, and they even exclude their own counselors.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: It's just in a small, small group of eight or
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: nine is only Blair sort of style of leadership. And
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: then you have council meetings and each each of the
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: committees underneath the council meetings or they produce reports and
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: those are the opportunities that buried in those reports is
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: always the information we need, always the information we need.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: And then we have tools open to us. The tools
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: we have open to us is public questions who can
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: do directly. We also have the means of opposition counselors
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: that we now have on side who can raise matters
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: inside the council chamber also directly with council offices. And
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: then we also have and we've used it effectively multiple
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: times spent is freedom of information requests now done properly
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: and coordinated the dynamite, because again you've got to accept
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: and understand now a freedom of information request, the aim
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: isn't always to get the information you want. Sometimes the
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: aim is to get them to lie to you. Sometimes
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: the aim is to get them to reveal something they
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: don't want to reveal. You know, there's there's a whole
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: host of ways of using freedom of information requests. And
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: we ran workshops. I ran workshops and then I sat
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: back in awe and looked at the is it that
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: what did they know? Dot com site? You know that
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: were where people were, off their own volition, submitting brilliant
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: freedom of information requests, And in some ways what they
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: were doing is is grinding to halt the machinery of
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: local government, which again is a weapon for us, because
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: we want to do that. Sometimes we want to do that.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: If six or seven people submit complementary FOI requests at
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: the same time as public questions are going in, at
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: the same time as opposition counselors are challenging decisions or
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: raising concerns, and with social media amplifying all of that,
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: they can't deal with the pressure, then right.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Can't deal with much because unfortunately local governance doesn't always
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: attract the brightest or the best.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: I think probably fair to say, right.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think that's what I'm saying explaining
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: to you because when I first came into this, I
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: expected a higher ceiling of challenge. And I'll be honestly,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: what we've achieved has been difficult. But it's not been
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: difficult because we've we've faced competent people. It's been difficult
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: because of the corruption and the criminality, not the competence
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: of those who were opposing us.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: That's good to hear. That fills me with confidence. I'm
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: feeling very excited by this conversation.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: We can win this, can we can win this if
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: it depends what you guys want to do. But if
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: you if you if you want to mobilize, if you
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: want to learn how to challenge, how to hold to account,
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: and basically how to improve the places where you live,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: I think that's what it. You know, how to have
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: us say and make a difference on what matters most
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: to you. And I was always taught when I belong
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: to when I believe that stuff, and I belong on
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: the left, and I was always thought to be the
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: difference where you can be the difference, you know, and
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: I can be the difference in the place I live.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: I can't you know, I say to my Muslim friends,
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: for instance, I can't do anything about what's going on
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: in Israel or Gaza, or in Ukraine or any of
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: those sorts of places. But I can make a difference
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: what happens at the local children's or the local taxi
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: driver is a sex offender or not, and it has
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: access to children. You know, those are the things I
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: can make a difference on.
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: I could not agree more. You know. We hear a
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: lot about.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Global leadership, you know, and you have these programs where
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: people are presented as are we're going to We're going
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: to fix things all.
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: Around the world. It's like, you can't do that.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: You can fix things in your immedia area, right, and
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: that's it, And that's all we should all of us
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: should really aspire to, you know. And if we all
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: did that, then the world be a much better place.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, spere of influence, well, we used to call
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: it the sphere of influence. You know, what what are
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: my skills? Where do I have legitimacy? And where can
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: I make a difference? And those three features put them
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: together and and and off you go.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Fantastic.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, so now let's let's we talked a bit about
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: the the current system and that's been really helpful, Thank
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: you very much. And we're definitely going to have to
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: talk about arranging some sessions and training up our army
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: of pensioners and retired soldiers and other people who can
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: who can get active.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: My apology to your audience, I've not met any of
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: you yet beyond me and you and I spoked to Stephanie.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: I think so my apologies if you're if you're, if you're,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: if I'm you know, if you're very different to what
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: I'm used to.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: I don't think that you need to apologize on that front.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: And I mean, the more the merrier ultimately, right. But
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say that when people get older,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: they they they become more.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: Attuned to.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: The bad things that are going on around them. They
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: become more intolerant of the sort of mediocrities that we're
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: seeing in government that we're.
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: All ultimately paying for. Right And you.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Know, as and when we will bring in the younger generation,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: we can bring in the younger generation, but you know,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: at its core, really we need everyone involved in this,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: you know, if we're going to going to take the
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: country in a better direction, So no need to apologize
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: on that front. One thing I would definitely like to
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: just wrap up on actually is where you see things
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: going next. So we talked about the current system. We
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: talked about the success that you've been having in your
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: local council in Oldham, which has been fantastic. But what
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: are they trying to do. You mentioned Jim McMahon, who
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: you know very well, who's doing some stuff. They've just
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: announced something about centering opposite. Well they haven't called it
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: centering opposition. Your interpretation of it is it's about centering
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: opposite'd be great to just hear a little bit.
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: More about that.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: And then also, I'm sure that's part of this broader
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: process of what they're calling devolution to the metro mare system.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: I'd be great to hear what your thoughts are on
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: that as well.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what they're doing. It's under the devolution banner
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: and they're introducing more metro mays. They reckon it's worked.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: They want to have a higher standard of counselors. That
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: means they want to sense of the opposition more and
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: McMahon's leading it, and McMahon's leading it based upon his
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: experiences of what we've done to him and his associates
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: over the last six years. I mean, this one hates us,
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: not just me.
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: He hates us.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: He's wanted so many of us in prison, and we
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: are a threat to the Labor Party machinery of what
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: governmance looks like. And unfortunately, the Conservatives couldn't care less
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: if not took the time to understand any of this properly, sadly,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: ben so they've not got any answers, and I think
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: so far reform have been nothing other than soundbites. So
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: we've got three years or four years to try and
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: inform an influence at least one or two of the
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: opposition parties to understand the dangers of what's taking place
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: and come up with an alternative model. Now, the Metro
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: mayors don't work to be the Metro mayor. The political
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: appointments and the Metro mayors also are the police and
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: crime commissioners. So before I came on with you this morning,
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: I submitted another complaint to the police, who are essentially
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: protecting individuals who are inciting serious violence against me and
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: I know. I know that the police, because I've sat
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: in my living room with the police. I know that
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: the police have been ordered to let this continue. And
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: they've been ordered because of the political infiltration of the
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: police force, by the by the political establishment, by by
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: by in my in my in Greater Manchester, by Andy
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Burnham and the Labor Party. He's got Kate Green, he's
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: devolved the powers to Now the issue you have here
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: is if we elect Metro mayors, they can't be existing
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: politicians with cozy relationships. And what they're doing the layer
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: of devolution. What they're doing is strengthening the hold and
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: their ability to protect each other. It's not the devolution.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: It's a racket. It's a protection racket, and it is
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: something you would find in nineteen thirties Chicago, rather than
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: rather than here. I listened to I think it was
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: on talk news, randomly popped up on my friend. There
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: was a police and crime commissioner. I think he was
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: elected somewhere and he beat the Labor Party candidate. And
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: this man went through Hell. I forget his name, but
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: he went through Hell with a whole lost of allegations
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: made against him. He tried to commit suicide. His why
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: found him and the only reason he didn't kill himself
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: was because he you know, he failed to do so.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: And it turned out that a senior Labor party MP
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: had been involved in it because because he'd won the
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Metro mayor Metro mare position, or the or the Police
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: and Crime commissioner position. And that's that's you've got to understand.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: These these positions are key anchor points, the key gateways,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: lynch pins in that corrupt system, you know, continuing to control,
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: and they want more control. What they want is more control,
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: more quangos, more of these devolved roles, and ultimately more control.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: So if you do have an objection, if you do
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: have something that's a concern that you legitimately raise, the
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: only place it's going to is their own.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: They just want to tie you up in the big
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: bureaucracy that they control out the money, don't they.
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, Look, Roger, that's been fantastic. Thank you very much.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: That was really insightful, and you're giving me a lot
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: of hope.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Actually, no, no, please, and please do do follow us.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: We are currently going up are about to go up
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: against a man called Tom Krawver is a k C.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: So Tom Craver is the is the counsel who's been
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: appointed by Vett Cooper to front these local investigations, and
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: we're calling him out. I've issued a letter and we're
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: looking forward to him to come to hold them because
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: we've took on senior Labor Party politicians, we took on
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: senior police officers, senior journalists, and someone like Tom Craver
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: doesn't scare us because we will not allow them to
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: cover up what's took place. And so if you don't mind,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: I'm justin. I'm just calling him out. Look forward to
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: meeting you, Tom.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he's not looking forward to meeting you, but anyway,
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: there's there's loads to get into here. Will no doubt
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: be talking about this again, and I look forward to
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: inviting you in at some point to have another conversation.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Maybe we can make it more of an interactive discussion
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: with some of our members and help people think about
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: how they can get active.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: But he's like you a Q and A or sometimes
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: our case studies where we you know, you bring a
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: real life challenges in towns and cities where you've got
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: some of your members, and I can say, well, okay,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: have we looked at this? Have you looked at that?
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: And I'd love to do that. It'd be no problem whatsoever.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: Fantastic great stuff. Well look, Roger, thank you so much
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: again for your time. It's been a fantastic discussion and
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: for now I've been Ben Rubin for UK column and
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: Roger Mayir up in Oldham showing us the direction that
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: we should be taking to fix things in our own
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: backyard and ultimately lead to a better country for everybody.
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you.