Latest / Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh / How to Deal with Family Trauma

Transcript

How to Deal with Family Trauma · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

0:00
Hello and welcome to another episode of Chatting With The Experts, the
0:04
show where I speak with amazing and phenomenal, dynamic women from
0:08
Africa, and a few men, from Africa, the Caribbean, and in the diaspora.
0:15
They share with me my mission, which is to educate, empower
0:19
and encourage women globally.
0:22
Today's show is the intergenerational trauma and its impact on child-parent
0:31
relationships, and we'll be discussing how unresolved trauma
0:38
impacts parent-child relationships.
0:43
My guest, who'll join me in a few minutes, is a clinical psychologist.
0:48
She previously earned a PhD in public health, and she's passionate about infant
0:55
mental health, parent-child psychotherapy, trauma-focused therapy, family and
1:06
couples therapy, and assessment services.
1:11
She's had extensive research experience in areas such as mental health
1:17
promotion, global mental health, child and adolescent mental health, substance
1:26
use interventions, and health equity.
1:31
She's published peer-reviewed journal articles and book
1:36
chapters on these topics.
1:39
My guests are phenomenal.
1:42
And with that, I want to welcome Gbotemi Babatunde to Chatting With the Experts.
1:53
Welcome.
1:53
Thank you so much for having me.
1:55
Welcome.
1:56
I'm so glad and I'm excited to be here.
1:58
Oh, my word.
2:00
I am bowled over with your bio.
2:05
Thank you for saying yes.
2:08
Thank you.
2:08
Thank you.
2:09
Thank you so much.
2:09
I am so excited to be here to talk about one of the things
2:13
I am truly passionate about.
2:16
When I met you, I saw the passion in your face, in your smile,
2:21
everything about all these things.
2:24
Thank you.
2:24
And I know that one, that you are so intrigued.
2:29
And intrigued is probably not the word.
2:31
You've gone to great extents to study intergenerational trauma.
2:36
Let's talk about that.
2:37
Yes.
2:39
Intergenerational trauma is… it is such a complex, term to even
2:45
start explaining or unpacking.
2:47
'Cause trauma is not just one single event.
2:50
And that's also the complex nature of trauma.
2:52
It could be one single event, and it could be multiple events, and it could be
2:57
multiple unconnected events that then come together to shape how we think and the
3:03
lens through which we interpret our world.
3:06
And so somebody goes through a traumatic experience, and
3:11
it stays with them forever.
3:13
It shapes how they understand people, how they interpret relationships,
3:17
how they respond to situations.
3:20
And so trauma is a complex, a really complex term, a complex phenomena
3:27
that, we need to sit down and understand more about, and even begin
3:32
to develop our own awareness about, the events that have traumatized us
3:37
and shaped us to who we have become.
3:39
And, what could be traumatizing for someone may not be
3:42
traumatizing for someone else.
3:45
That's also the interesting thing about trauma, that some people would
3:49
experience some events that would probably not impact on them as much
3:54
as it would impact on other people.
3:56
And some people would experience some events that other people may consider
4:01
non-traumatizing that would, really significantly shape their lives
4:07
even into adulthood, for example, if they experienced it as a child.
4:11
And trauma could impact us at any phase of life.
4:14
It's not just when we are children.
4:17
We tend to like, develop or try to talk to parents, from a psychologist
4:22
standpoint about developing protective factors for children so that they are not
4:26
overly exposed to traumatic experiences.
4:29
But we also do know that it's almost impossible to shield or protect
4:33
a child from experiencing trauma.
4:35
But what we can do is try as much as possible to minimize the impact on them.
4:41
And so what I was trying to say is that trauma could impact on
4:44
anyone at any phase of life.
4:46
It could be at the earlier years of life, mid-life, experiences,
4:52
and it could even be later in life.
4:55
But I think one of the key things about trauma that we need to always
4:59
put at the back of our mind is that we need to process this event.
5:03
Unresolved trauma are the ones that really significantly impact on us, even
5:10
in a way that we're not totally aware of.
5:14
So there's this thing that I read about sometimes, that even if we don't
5:18
process, even if we don't remember the complete events, we don't have the memory
5:23
of this event, our bodies remember.
5:27
There is a way that the body keeps count of these experiences.
5:31
And before you even think about it, you begin to respond in a way that you
5:36
possibly did not even sit down to process or think that you were gonna respond this
5:41
way because of what your mind, because of what your body had previously experienced.
5:47
And so oftentimes trauma response is a protective mechanism for so many people.
5:53
I don't wanna experience the pain that I have experienced in the past
5:56
anymore, so I rather protect myself.
5:59
And then in that way of wanting to protect yourself from the pain that
6:04
you have previously experienced, it is possible to then traumatize
6:09
another person, and another person in the situation might be your child.
6:14
And so some people experience neglect.
6:17
They didn't have responsive parents, people who really attended to
6:21
them and were present for them.
6:24
And so their own way of caring for their children would
6:28
also almost be physical care.
6:30
They would pay school fees, they would buy clothes, they would buy everything,
6:34
but they are so emotionally distant.
6:35
Yes.
6:36
From their own children, probably because they didn't have anyone mentor that
6:40
to them, when they were growing up.
6:42
And secondly, they just don't know how to do it.
6:46
Yeah.
6:46
And thirdly, it could just bring out this discomfort, reminding them of the things
6:51
that they suffered in their own childhood.
6:54
So they just rather "I'll throw you the money, I will throw you the
6:57
toys, I will throw you the clothes.
7:00
Everything you want I will provide, but I'm just not capable of providing
7:04
that emotional presence." And parents don't intentionally traumatize
7:09
their children in most cases.
7:11
In most cases.
7:11
Um, parents in most cases.
7:14
Yeah.
7:14
Parents would not intentionally sit down and say, "I am going to inflict
7:18
pain on my child." I don't think any normal functioning person would do that.
7:23
But almost all the time, parents unintentionally traumatize their
7:29
children and, transfer their own pains to those children.
7:33
How do parent transfer their pains to those children?
7:36
Children use their parents as the means through which they understand the world.
7:44
Children often think about their parent as their models.
7:48
They think about their parent as the lens they use in seeing
7:53
and interpreting the world.
7:54
And so whatever it is that they see their parent do becomes
7:58
their own way of doing things.
7:59
That's true.
8:00
And so when a child sees a parent who's always triggered, a parent who's
8:06
not able to regulate their emotions, they're also not able to develop their
8:11
emotion regulation skills, 'cause mommy gets triggered, mommy yells,
8:15
mommy gets anxious about things.
8:17
And so it impacts on their whole nervous system also.
8:20
"Oh, that's the way my parents respond.
8:22
Maybe that's the best way to respond," And so this is how we then transpired, like
8:28
a mom who's experienced a mom who wasn't responsive to her care, but she wants to
8:33
be more responsive right now, but she's still carrying that emotional baggage
8:38
with her that she snaps at a child at every single thing. "Why are you crying?
8:44
Why are you throwing a fit or a tantrum?" It's no longer about the child
8:48
throwing the tantrum, it's now about the parent's discomfort, the parent's
8:52
inability to sit with the discomfort of experiencing a child throw the tantrum.
8:59
Ahhh.
9:00
If a child does not have the capability to control themselves, at least the
9:05
adult should have the ability to be able to take it in to say, "Okay, this
9:09
child is having big feelings right now. I'll do everything possible to help them
9:14
regulate." There is no self-regulation.
9:17
A child cannot develop self-regulation skills without co-regulation.
9:21
They must have learnt it from their parents, who would be able to sit down
9:25
with them and say, "Oh, I know you're having big feelings right now. How can
9:29
I help you? What can we do to fix this?"
9:32
Okay, so quick question.
9:33
So from what I'm hearing, it's almost like a domino, backward domino effect
9:39
in the sense that, so the parent who possibly had experienced trauma in
9:45
their own time, they see a child crying.
9:49
The child cannot regulate their own behavior.
9:52
The parent meanwhile is now the grown-up child who had their own trauma.
9:58
Yes.
9:59
Feels discomfort.
10:00
They see the child crying and they're like, it triggers.
10:02
It's a trigger.
10:03
Yeah.
10:03
Yes.
10:04
So they don't even know how to control that, and so they shout at the child.
10:07
Yes.
10:08
That child invariably, 20 years forward, is gonna grow up remembering
10:12
how that mother shouted at them, and they're probably gonna do
10:15
the same thing to their child.
10:16
Oh, yeah.
10:17
Oh, yes.
10:18
That's exactly what happens.
10:20
It's this continuous effect.
10:22
Yeah.
10:22
Ripple effect of teaching our children how to respond by modeling.
10:26
We teach children a lot of things.
10:28
There are two things that children are unconsciously
10:32
pulling for in their parents.
10:33
Number one is safety.
10:35
Am I safe-
10:36
Yes
10:37
… around this person?
10:38
A child wants to feel safe.
10:39
And am I loved?
10:41
Am I worthy of love?
10:43
Am I worthy of attention?
10:45
And so if a parent is not able to meet those needs, then there is a distortion.
10:51
There's this shaking up that happens within a child.
10:54
"Okay, I am not settled in this environment.
10:56
I don't feel safe.
10:57
I don't feel loved.
10:58
I don't feel worthy of love." And so that is already shaping their own
11:02
perception of their own self first-
11:04
Yeah
11:05
… and then their own perception of other people around them.
11:08
Okay, so I have a question for you.
11:10
So in your bio, you mentioned, or your bio indicates that you're
11:16
passionate about infant mental health.
11:19
Yes.
11:19
Many of us grew up not even thinking, well, I shouldn't say not
11:25
thinking, but when we think about mental health, we think about…
11:31
most times people who are cognitively aware.
11:37
So-
11:38
Oh, yeah.
11:38
People who have severe mental health concerns.
11:40
Yes.
11:42
How do we think about… Tell me more about an infant's mental health.
11:47
That's what I'm trying to get at.
11:49
Oh, yeah.
11:50
that's, I am very much happy to answer that question.
11:53
I am always happy to answer that 'cause parents often ask,
11:57
"What does this child know?"
11:58
Yes.
11:59
"Why do I need to bring this child to therapy?" And I think the primary thing,
12:04
the fundamental thing that we do in infant mental health is working with parents.
12:09
Okay.
12:09
We are helping parent develop that awareness and, just what I have been
12:14
talking about, that we help parent go back in time to their own childhood
12:19
and reflect on how they grew, how they perceive their parents, what were the
12:24
protective factors in their own childhood.
12:26
So there's something we call angels in the nursery and ghosts in the
12:30
nursery in infant mental health.
12:33
Angels in the nursery are those, positive experiences that they had
12:37
in their own childhood, and ghosts in the nursery are the traumatic
12:42
experiences that they had growing up.
12:45
These two things shape how a child grows, and then how they
12:50
form their own parenting style.
12:52
Okay.
12:53
Wait, wait-
12:53
So oftentimes-
12:54
wait one second.
12:54
Sorry.
12:55
I'm writing this.
12:55
Infant in the nursery, and child… Oh, ghosts.
12:59
Ghosts and angels in the nursery.
13:01
Ghosts and angels in the nursery.
13:02
Okay.
13:02
So angels are the positive, protective experiences that an
13:06
individual has had, over time-
13:09
Okay
13:09
… across their lifespan or, but also primarily in their childhood.
13:14
Okay.
13:15
And then ghosts in the nursery are the past traumatic experiences.
13:19
Oh
13:19
that they have had.
13:20
But these two things then shape the person into the adult they have become.
13:26
Okay.
13:26
And invariably, the parent that they would be to their child.
13:30
Okay.
13:31
And so oftentimes we don't get parent bring their children in until there are
13:36
concerns from preschool, for example.
13:39
I work mostly with, two to threes, and then up until age 12, thereabout.
13:44
But oftentimes parents don't seek care until the child goes to daycare,
13:49
and then they are becoming defiant.
13:51
They're having behavioral concerns.
13:54
They are throwing very big tantrums.
13:56
They are hitting and pulling on other children, and they just have
14:01
severe behavioral difficulties or even emotional difficulties.
14:05
These are the times that we get them, you know, the school then
14:08
refer them to infant mental health.
14:10
And then they come in and say, "I don't know what is happening to
14:13
this child. I have done everything possible to help this child, but it's
14:17
just not working." "And so I need help. I need you to fix this child."
14:22
And they come in and I say, "No, the child is not the starting point here.
14:28
You are the starting point here."
14:30
How does that come-
14:32
Oh, yeah…
14:33
through the parent?
14:34
You as a parent is the starting point here because this child came
14:40
without having any experience.
14:42
The very first experience of their world was through you.
14:45
Yeah.
14:45
And so let us understand how you are modeling all those behaviors to them.
14:51
Or let's see how you are shaping their own pers- per- perspect- oh
14:56
my God, English, perception of the world, perspectives- of the world.
15:01
and then we sit down and I'm like, "Tell me about your childhood."
15:05
Yeah.
15:05
Yeah.
15:05
And then we go on, and then my parents were never present, I lived with
15:10
an uncle, or I lived with my mom.
15:13
She was a single mom, and she had to work so hard, and I had
15:17
to take care of my younger ones.
15:18
I had to grow up very quickly.
15:21
My mom didn't have any time to attend to my emotions.
15:24
She was so focused on, paying rent.
15:26
My dad wasn't present.
15:28
My parents were constantly fighting at home.
15:31
I experienced them, fighting.
15:32
I experienced physical abuse, domestic violence and,
15:36
emotional abuse and all of that.
15:38
Or grandmother died when I was much younger, and she was one of the biggest
15:43
protective factors in my life, and the moment grandmother died, my mom could not
15:47
manage it and, it was just a hard time.
15:50
Or my parents worked so hard, but they were poor and could not really meet our
15:55
needs, and so we lived in abject poverty.
15:58
We had so much lack growing up.
16:00
And we had unstable housing.
16:03
We didn't know where the next meal was gonna come from.
16:07
And then some people come and "No, I had a pretty good childhood. We had
16:11
housing, we had enough food, we had everything. But there was a point
16:16
where my parent got a divorce, and I had to move between two households
16:22
and it was difficult for my parents to communicate and, all of that." So it's
16:26
different stories for different people.
16:28
I am just trying to l- you know, capture as much as possible-
16:29
… that, could possibly be the realities of people growing up.
16:32
But I am trying to say that all of these experiences shaped them to become
16:37
the person that they are right now.
16:39
Yeah.
16:39
But they have never had any time to really sit down and think about themselves and
16:44
how they have come to become who they are.
16:47
I once had a caregiver sitting across me and said, " I feel like I'm always
16:52
angry, and I don't know why I'm angry."
16:54
And then I said, "Let's talk about it.
16:57
What was your relationship with your parents like?" She
17:00
was like, "You know what?
17:02
My parents separated.
17:03
I really loved my dad and I wanted this connection, this feeling of being loved
17:08
and being preferred by your father.
17:12
But no, he just left.
17:13
He got married to another person.
17:15
I tried living with them, but it was difficult.
17:17
My dad could not even look me in the eyes and tell me he loves
17:21
me or he even cares about me.
17:24
And then I moved in with my mom.
17:25
She's moved in into an abusive relationship.
17:28
Her boyfriend was hitting and beating her." And then this is
17:31
the condition she grew up in.
17:33
And then I said, "I think we have the answer."
17:36
You have never sat down to process this, to think about this, and then you
17:40
grew up into a parent who constantly wanted to fix that for your children.
17:45
You didn't wanna be an absent mother.
17:47
You wanted to protect your children so much that you became overprotective-
17:52
Yeah
17:53
in the process, and you begin to say things like, " I don't
17:56
know why I'm not able to do the right things by my children.
18:01
I am doing my possible best as a parent, but it's just not working,"
18:05
because those things weren't addressed.
18:09
So true.
18:09
So it either, oftentimes trauma's just so complex in that way that if it's not
18:15
resolved, it i- if it's not addressed, it swings you on, the extremes of
18:20
the pendulum, of the balance rather.
18:22
You either become so desensitized or you, I mean, so what I'm talking
18:29
about is probably to the emotional needs of the children, or you become
18:33
overprotective, overly protective, which are two extremes that are bad.
18:38
Yes.
18:38
What we wanna do is find the middle point, the balance.
18:42
And how do we find that?
18:42
And what… Exactly, and how do we find that?
18:45
So there is no perfect person.
18:47
When parents come in, I tell them that, you cannot be perfect and
18:51
perfectionism is not what you should be striving for right now.
18:55
You can be good enough for your child.
18:58
Yeah.
18:58
Who is the good parent for your child is what we should figure out.
19:02
What are the needs of your child, and how can you as a parent develop the
19:07
skills to meet the physical, emotional, psychological needs of this child?
19:13
That is what makes you a good parent.
19:15
And as long as you are doing that, even if there are times that you miss it or
19:19
do it wrong sometimes, there is always opportunities to go back and say, "Oh,
19:24
I did that wrong. I can do better, and these are the ways I can do better next
19:28
time." That is where you're able to find balance, that you're able to sit
19:33
down and reflect on your responses.
19:35
You are aware.
19:37
Gaining that level of awareness of how you are presenting every day.
19:41
You know, it's possible that we just live our lives every day without even being
19:45
intentional about how we are presenting.
19:48
We just know that…
19:49
Yeah.
19:49
We wake up, we do the normals like, we wake up, we wake the children up, we
19:53
get them ready for school, we pack their lunchboxes, we drop them off at school,
19:58
and we just not paying attention to all the things in between the line, you know.
20:03
For sure.
20:03
In between those chores that we do.
20:05
We're not paying attention to how Junior is saying, "Mommy, no, I don't want
20:10
bread this morning," and you're like, "Please don't disturb me this morning,"
20:13
and you snap at the child and you're like, "That's what I'm giving you." Yeah.
20:16
We're not paying attention to, "Junior, can you help me understand why you don't
20:19
want bread this morning?" And, "Oh, Mommy, it's because it's like this,"
20:24
and you're like, "Oh, no, that's not it.
20:26
Maybe we can find a way to make it softer.
20:28
Maybe when we apply butter, it's gonna be softer and you're gonna enjoy it
20:32
better." But we're not paying attention to having those conversations.
20:36
We just want things to go our way, and that's what trauma does to us.
20:40
Yeah.
20:40
And trauma puts us in a place where we want to always have control.
20:44
Because that's, what gives us power.
20:46
That's what puts us in a safe space.
20:49
We always want to feel safe, right?
20:51
We don't wanna experience that pain anymore, and the only way to do that is
20:55
to have control over every situation.
20:58
And I guess that's why you mentioned unresolved-
21:02
Yes
21:03
trauma.
21:04
That's why- It impacts the parent and the child because until you get to
21:11
the bottom of it, okay- Okay … why are we looking for the control?
21:14
Why are we looking just for a solution?
21:16
Oh, yeah.
21:16
Why are we looking for the comfort?
21:18
Oh, yeah.
21:18
Why are we looking for the easy way?
21:19
Yeah.
21:19
Until, as you said, when they bring the children to you-
21:22
Yeah
21:22
… and they say, "This child is the problem," you say, "Okay,
21:25
let's talk more about this.
21:27
What happened to you?
21:28
What was your childhood like?"
21:30
Yeah.
21:30
Because like you say, when Junior is saying, "Oh, I don't wanna eat this,"
21:33
or sometimes Junior is like, "I don't wanna wear these socks," or- Oh.
21:36
Yeah
21:36
"I don't wanna go to school." We're like-
21:38
Oh, yeah
21:39
… " I have to get to work, so just hurry up." Oh, yeah. hurry up."
21:41
Oh, yes.
21:42
We're just saying "Let's find out why." And then you could-
21:46
Yeah
21:46
… find out the reason.
21:47
Like I look-
21:48
And that's what the child is actually pulling for.
21:50
Yeah.
21:51
It might not even be the clothes.
21:52
Yeah.
21:53
It's just the attention they are pulling for.
21:55
"I just want mommy to attend to me."
21:57
Me, yes.
21:59
Yes.
21:59
"I just want mommy to, or daddy to attend to me." Or-
22:03
Oh,
22:03
yes
22:03
… "Daddy to see me." And-
22:05
Oh, yeah.
22:05
" I just wanna be seen and heard."
22:07
And heard, you know?
22:08
Yes.
22:08
And daddy's thinking, "I just have bills to pay. I just have to get to work."
22:13
"I need to be at work."
22:13
Yes.
22:14
Yes.
22:14
So why bother me?
22:15
But nobody ever gave me this.
22:17
Nobody ever-
22:18
Thank you
22:18
… attended to my emotions, and so I am paying your school fees,
22:21
you have shoes, you have clothes.
22:23
You should be thankful.
22:25
Yes.
22:25
Are you not happy?
22:27
Oh, yes.
22:28
Are you not fed?
22:29
Are you hungry?
22:30
Don't you have a roof over your head?
22:31
Over your head?
22:33
No.
22:34
Yeah.
22:35
And human needs are way beyond that.
22:38
Way beyond that.
22:41
But it's understanding that because sometimes you have to bring that parent
22:44
back to the awareness, as you just said.
22:46
Human needs are way beyond that.
22:49
Human needs are way beyond.
22:51
I mean, these are needed, but human needs go beyond that.
22:55
But sometimes it's also the luxury of having these things already there.
23:00
When you have the luxury of a house and food and shelter and a car,
23:05
sometimes that's when you can start thinking about more things, you know?
23:10
Oh, yeah.
23:11
Oh, yes.
23:11
Oh, yes.
23:12
But regardless of the situation where we find ourselves, whether we have
23:17
just enough or more than enough or not enough, there is one thing that
23:22
we all need to grow, intentionality.
23:25
So true.
23:26
Being intentional about the way we are living.
23:30
Mm-hmm.
23:31
I mean, our situation could just be good excuses, but
23:35
they're still excuses, you know?
23:36
That is so true.
23:37
That doesn't mean that we're not capable of doing better.
23:41
That is so true.
23:42
It just depends on our level of awareness and our determination and decision
23:46
to be intentional in how we present what we choose, what we don't choose.
23:52
That's so true.
23:54
So let's talk about healing.
23:56
How do we heal this?
23:58
How do we… Now we talked about, the intergenerational trauma.
24:02
We talk about the parent-child relationship and how to be, a parent,
24:07
and why a lot of these things start with the parents in the first place
24:10
because there's unresolved trauma.
24:13
Yes.
24:14
How do we heal this?
24:17
Yeah.
24:17
Healing stems from gaining awareness-
24:21
Okay
24:21
… that we have already started talking about.
24:24
That we talk about, oftentimes when I sit down with parents and I say,
24:28
"Tell me about your childhood," they're not able to remember the intricate
24:34
details… of, their childhood, and that's not what I'm reaching for.
24:38
I wanna know the experiences that stays with them.
24:42
There are some things in childhood, no matter how young, there are some things
24:46
that I remember from when I was just five years old I do not remember my
24:51
five-year-old experience as a whole, but there are one, two, three events
24:55
that I can remember, And it means that those events shaped me somehow.
25:01
They impacted me somehow for me to still have the memories of that.
25:05
And so these are the memories that I wanna explore with them.
25:09
Take me back in time, and then we'll begin to talk about those things.
25:13
And parents would often cry and would say, "You know, I had, I never, processed these
25:19
memories. I never brought it back because it's just so painful to remember." Mm-hmm.
25:24
So the recollection of the memories is the starting point for healing because
25:30
parents have avoided, they have repressed these memories over time, but bringing
25:35
them back to the point where they're able to sit down and tell the story.
25:39
One thing about therapy, I'm just going off-track right now, but one
25:44
thing about therapy that people don't understand is that it helps you to
25:48
think and talk at the same time, and the more we think, the more we talk and
25:54
process this event, the more we minimize the impact on us because we begin to
25:59
gain increased level of awareness.
26:01
"Oh my, this is how this
26:05
thing has impacted me. This is the reason why I am like this." And oftentimes people
26:11
wanna go back, for example, if their parents were the agent through which
26:16
this trauma was perpetrated, they want to go back and, have these conversations.
26:21
And unfortunately some people don't have that.
26:24
Maybe parents have passed away or people who traumatized them in
26:29
some way are just not reachable or accessible for them anymore.
26:32
And so closure is different from healing.
26:35
Some people start their healing from closure, but some people, oftentimes
26:40
people start healing from awareness.
26:43
Awareness of how much this person impacted you, and then going
26:47
through the phase of forgiveness.
26:50
Yeah.
26:50
Forgiving yourself, forgiving the person, not for their own sake, for your own sake
26:57
if it was something that was done to you.
27:00
For example, a parent neglected a child and then they are struggling
27:04
to connect with their own children.
27:05
Understanding that you don't have the full details of why they neglected you.
27:10
Even if you have the details, the stories, around why they neglected
27:14
you, it still doesn't excuse the fact that it was a negative and traumatizing
27:18
experience for you as a person.
27:21
And so there is need for you to forgive.
27:23
That you begin to minimize the hate, the resentment that you carry
27:29
towards that person or whatever it is that caused the trauma.
27:34
And begin to re-situate yourself in the world that you think would be ideal for
27:43
you outside of that traumatic experience.
27:46
Mm-hmm.
27:46
Like, okay, yes, I have experienced this, but in an ideal situation,
27:51
this is how I should have grown up.
27:53
And so I accept the fact that I do not have that childhood-
27:58
… but I have gained this level of awareness, and I would not be the
28:02
person to do this to another person.
28:05
So I am going to, be the intentional parent that my parents were not
28:10
… such that my healing and the way that I know that I have healed
28:14
is that I am not transferring this trauma to my own children.
28:19
I love that.
28:21
Yes.
28:22
Be the intentional parent that my parent wasn't-
28:25
Yes
28:26
… so that I don't transfer that negative behavior from me
28:29
to my children, the future-
28:31
Yeah
28:31
… generation.
28:32
Yes.
28:32
Yes.
28:33
And it takes a lot of work.
28:35
It does.
28:35
It takes a lot of just being, just paying so much attention to ourselves,
28:40
like I have been saying, how we are presenting, how we are responding.
28:46
Mm-hmm.
28:47
As little as the tone of our voices.
28:49
Yeah.
28:49
As little as our facial expressions.
28:51
Yes.
28:52
As little as paying attention to our triggers.
28:55
What are the things that trigger me?
28:57
Yeah.
28:57
What are the things that gets me on edge, that sets me on edge?
29:00
Yeah.
29:00
And how do I respond to these triggers?
29:03
Thinking about coping mechanisms, for our triggers.
29:07
Do I remove myself?
29:10
Do I just find a place to go breathe for a while?
29:13
What are the things I can do to help myself regulate my internal experience
29:18
when I am triggered such that I am not, you know, spilling, this experiences on
29:24
other people around in a way that would traumatize them, children in particular.
29:28
And I have been talking about much younger children.
29:31
Let's talk about teenagers and even young adult children.
29:34
They have known mommy and daddy to be this person because they have now lived with
29:38
them until their teenage age, and remember the teenage age is the age where people
29:43
are seeking autonomy, where people are beginning to shape their own identity.
29:48
They are seeking independence, and they just wanna have control
29:52
over their own lives too.
29:54
And this is a mom who's not learnt to let go of control because
29:57
that's their own coping mechanism.
30:00
Yes.
30:00
So it's a fight of somebody seeking control and somebody
30:04
holding on to control.
30:06
Parent has held onto control for so long.
30:09
They have told this child what to do.
30:12
They're now even telling them, "No, you have to do sciences," or, "No, you have
30:15
to do math," or, "No, you have to wear this," or, "No, you cannot go there."
30:20
And they're like, "Why?" And that's the question we get asked right now, "Why,
30:25
Mom?" And you're like, "I never had the confidence to ask my parents why."
30:30
We are living in a different generation, right?
30:32
Yeah.
30:33
We are living in a different context, and that's where culture comes in also.
30:37
"Oh, my parents did that, and I must do that. This is what is cultural.
30:42
In our culture, this is what we do." But we're also now thinking that
30:46
times are changing, and we must-
30:48
So we are going to have to continue this conversation on another
30:52
episode because I'm looking-
30:53
Yeah
30:54
at the time.
30:55
But that's-
30:55
Yeah
30:56
… a great, great, great topic.
30:59
Dealing with teenagers, especially in a different cultural setup.
31:04
Oh, yeah.
31:04
Yes.
31:05
Oh my gosh, that's a topic for another day.
31:07
And it's complicated by unresolved trauma on both end.
31:11
Yeah.
31:11
Yes.
31:12
And remember, the child is now grown to become a teenager.
31:14
They might have been traumatized in one way or the other
31:17
… without them even knowing that they have been traumatized, because parents
31:20
have also not resolved their own trauma.
31:23
And now parents are struggling to have conversations with their teenagers.
31:28
And then their whole relationship is getting ruptured and ruptured every
31:32
day, and there is no repair strategy.
31:35
Hmm.
31:39
And so we are fighting every day.
31:41
Parents are fighting with teenagers over food, they are fighting over clothes,
31:44
they are fighting over when you get back from school, they are fighting over what
31:47
is happening in school, and it just feels that this teenager feels like, "My parent
31:52
is not hearing or seeing me." And parent are also so frustrated, "I'm praying over
31:57
this child, but this child is just so defiant, they are not listening." But the
32:03
challenge is right in their relationship.
32:06
If only everybody could sit down and say, "I really wanna listen." if parent can
32:11
say, "I'll let go of control," and then teach the teenager how to manage control.
32:19
And in thinking about young adults or adult children, or finally
32:24
the teenager is like, "I cannot wait to be out of this house.
32:27
The moment I am off to college, that would be the end with this mom.
32:32
I will never come back or have to stay or live with this woman
32:36
anymore." And then they leave for college, and the relationship that
32:40
wasn't really great while they were at home, then distance then helps to
32:45
widen the gap in that relationship.
32:48
And so parents are not able to connect with their adult children anymore.
32:52
They don't need them for anything, maybe except for financial support.
32:56
Mm. Where, I mean, even in this culture, children can work and get some money and
33:00
manage through college by themselves.
33:02
And so there is- Yeah
33:04
maybe no need for this parent anymore.
33:07
They don't have to choose what they wear, what they would eat,
33:09
what time they get back anymore.
33:12
and parents then begin to get into that phase where they are empty nesting,
33:16
they're lonely, and they are grieving the loss of that relationship with their
33:21
child because of the things that they did not pay attention to while this
33:25
child was growing within the household.
33:27
And there is room for repair.
33:29
One thing that I would really want parents to take home from today's
33:33
conversation is finding ways to repair.
33:37
I mean, if parents are lucky to still have very little children below
33:42
the age of five, that this is the age where parents need to be very
33:47
intentional about their presentation, about how they are developing this
33:51
relationship with their children.
33:53
And even if they now have teenage children that they are now struggling
33:57
to connect with, that there is room for them to take a pause and like,
34:01
"Okay, how am I contributing to these dynamics as a parent, and what can
34:07
I do to begin to repair?" There is no need to be afraid of rupture in
34:11
relationship if we know how to repair.
34:14
Okay.
34:14
and I think that's one thing we need to learn culturally, particularly
34:17
as Africans, that it's okay for us to apologize to our children.
34:21
To say, Hmm … " I yelled at you yesterday.
34:23
I am so sorry I did that.
34:25
Can we have a conversation about that?"
34:28
That's a big thing, I think that's a learning,
34:32
Learning curve
34:32
There's a learning curve for the African parent to know apologies
34:37
are part of growth on both sides.
34:39
Oh, yeah.
34:39
The children need to hear it, and the-
34:41
Yeah
34:41
… parents need to know it is okay.
34:43
It doesn't take away respect from you.
34:45
No.
34:45
If anything, it helps your children to grow into-
34:48
To
34:49
learn
34:49
… better adults.
34:49
Yes.
34:50
And they respect you even more for doing that.
34:52
Oh, yeah.
34:52
Because ultimately, they see that you see them.
34:56
They see that you are, what am I saying?
35:00
They feel that you are helping to bridge the gap between-
35:05
Oh, yeah
35:05
… your culture and the culture that they're going out the door to be a part of.
35:10
And that's-
35:10
Yeah, they see the effort.
35:10
They see the effort you're putting in.
35:11
Yeah, they see you're making an effort.
35:13
Yeah.
35:13
Yes.
35:14
Yes.
35:15
So, we have to have another episode to talk about that.
35:19
Because that is a-
35:19
No, I will be coming back
35:21
That's a topic on its own.
35:23
Oh, yeah.
35:24
Oh, yes.
35:24
Oh, yes.
35:25
Oh, boy.
35:26
Oh.
35:28
Gbotemi, this has been absolutely, you know, amazing, and I've learned so much.
35:33
But for those, we're only stopping because we have people in the audience
35:37
who would love to talk more with you.
35:38
But for those listening on Apple Podcasts and Spotify or watching this
35:43
on YouTube, if they'd like to get in touch with you, how can they do that?
35:48
My email address would be the best way.
35:50
Okay.
35:50
That's It's my first name, G-B-O-T-E-M-I, and my last name, B-A-B-A-T-U-N-D-E, then
35:58
number one, gbotemibabatunde1@gmail.com.
36:00
Okay.
36:00
And I'll be happy to have that conversation with them.
36:03
Okay.
36:04
I can drop that in the, in the chat, and we'll put that,
36:06
of course, in the show notes.
36:08
And, oh my gosh.
36:09
And for those who, of course, are listening to this on Apple Podcasts
36:14
or Spotify or watching this later on YouTube, if you'd like to be a
36:19
guest just like Gbotemi has been, reach out to me on my website,
36:24
which is chattingwiththeexperts.com.
36:26
I'm also on LinkedIn as Paula Okonneh on my business page, which is a
36:30
better place to get in touch with me.
36:33
You can, which is Chatting With The Experts.
36:35
I'm also on YouTube.
36:37
please subscribe to me there at Chatting With The Experts.
36:41
And, I am also, on Instagram and my handle there is
36:48
@chat_experts_podcast.
36:50
And, now we will open up the floor to all who joined us so that they'll get an
36:55
opportunity to speak with Gbotemi herself and ask the questions that I haven't
37:03
asked her or I forgot to ask her, and this will be your opportunity to do that.
37:08
Thank you so much, Gbotemi for being a guest on Chatting With The Experts.
37:13
Thank you so much for having me.
37:15
It was such a great experience.
37:17
Absolutely.
37:18
Thank you