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Bad Contracts and Big Payrolls · Rosters to Rings Podcast

0:03
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings alongside Chet West. I
0:07
Speaker 1: am Thad Levine. Chet, we got a great show here today.
0:10
Speaker 1: We're going to talk a little bit about some of
0:12
Speaker 1: the most burdensome contracts across the NFL and Major League Baseball.
0:16
Speaker 1: We're going to have a review of some of what
0:19
Speaker 1: Spilly shared with us about the competitiveness in Major League Baseball.
0:23
Speaker 1: But where I want to start with is we haven't
0:25
Speaker 1: had a chance to speak about this, but in Major
0:27
Speaker 1: League Baseball, we've had a little bit of a shifting
0:29
Speaker 1: of the sands. A few teams have made some leadership changes,
0:33
Speaker 1: and I thought that's where we would start our discussion today.
0:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, Thad, you know, as you know, we're getting to
0:38
Speaker 2: that time of the year when the earth begins to
0:41
Speaker 2: shift under the feet of baseball players, baseball managers, front
0:46
Speaker 2: office folks, and we see it again here. You know,
0:49
Speaker 2: we talked about Perry Manassian and the Angels parting ways
0:54
Speaker 2: a few months back. John Mozeliak's taken over there, and
0:58
Speaker 2: now we're seeing some other moves. On August 11th of
1:02
Speaker 2: this month, the Angels fired pitching coaches Mike Maddox, Dom Chidi,
1:06
Speaker 2: and Daryl Scott. Now, I look at this and I
1:10
Speaker 2: see Dom Chidi, Daryl Scott, not to belittle them. I'm
1:14
Speaker 2: less familiar with their work. But Mike Maddox is a
1:17
Speaker 2: big name. And everybody knows Mike Maddox that knows baseball.
1:20
Speaker 2: He's pitching coach for, what are we going on here,
1:24
Speaker 2: 20-some years? 23 seasons. 23 seasons. He's a major league
1:29
Speaker 2: pitching coach. He's 13 postseason appearances, three World Series appearances
1:33
Speaker 2: and a championship as recently as 2023, I believe, if
1:38
Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken. So it's not like this stuff happened
1:40
Speaker 2: in the early portion of his career. What gives here
1:44
Speaker 2: in your mind? I mean, what are we looking at
1:46
Speaker 2: when we see something like that? They've just gutted the
1:48
Speaker 2: entire pitching coach staff, basically.
1:51
Speaker 1: So you mentioned it. There's been a chain of events
1:53
Speaker 1: here recently. First, with Perry Manassian losing his role, John
1:57
Speaker 1: Moseliak came and he's really doing an audit of the
1:59
Speaker 1: entire organization under the direction of Artie Moreno, their owner,
2:04
Speaker 1: in partnership with Molly Jolly, the team president on the
2:07
Speaker 1: business side.
2:08
Speaker 2: And this is the.
2:09
Speaker 1: First probably of a few chips to fall in Anaheim,
2:13
Speaker 1: as we're seeing that he has now made a recommendation
2:16
Speaker 1: that they need to make a change in their pitching leadership.
2:19
Speaker 1: A few things I just want to share with the
2:21
Speaker 1: listeners about Mike Maddox. I've had a chance to work
2:23
Speaker 1: with both Mike Maddox and Dom Chidi of this group.
2:27
Speaker 1: Dom was a senior leader on the scouting and player
2:29
Speaker 1: development side in Texas while I was there. Mike Maddox
2:32
Speaker 1: was the longtime pitching coach. You referenced it. He's had
2:36
Speaker 1: a very decorated career. And lest we forget, he was
2:39
Speaker 1: also a pitcher at the major league level. But then
2:42
Speaker 1: he went on to have a very illustrious, what I
2:44
Speaker 1: imagine is not concluded, major league coaching career. role as
2:49
Speaker 1: a pitching coach and one of the foremost ones in
2:51
Speaker 1: the game. And what you get in Mike Maddox when
2:53
Speaker 1: you hire him is one of the most hardworking coaches
2:57
Speaker 1: I've ever been around. His attention to detail and his
3:01
Speaker 1: preparation is bar none, Chet. He is a guy who
3:05
Speaker 1: works tirelessly on behalf of his pitching staff. He is
3:08
Speaker 1: preparing these guys at a level that just transcends what
3:12
Speaker 1: most coaches are doing When they go on the rubber,
3:15
Speaker 1: they truly believe they have Mike in their ear, guiding
3:18
Speaker 1: them to greatness. And that is why a lot of
3:20
Speaker 1: his teams, as you may mention, 13 postseason appearances in
3:24
Speaker 1: 23 seasons across a number of different teams. He's had
3:28
Speaker 1: Cy Young Award winners. He's had guys overachieve throughout his career.
3:32
Speaker 1: But let's look a little bit deeper as to what
3:34
Speaker 1: is the present state of the Anaheim Angels. Their pitching
3:38
Speaker 1: side has not been great. particularly robust. I'm not sure
3:41
Speaker 1: it's fair to put that on Mike. He's only been
3:43
Speaker 1: there for this season, but at the time of his departure,
3:46
Speaker 1: they're 19th in war. And most of that came from
3:49
Speaker 1: Reed Detmers and Jose Soriano. Over half of the team's
3:53
Speaker 1: war was in those two starting pitchers. Their staff was
3:55
Speaker 1: 24th in ERA, 30th in walk rate. They were fifth
3:59
Speaker 1: in strikeout rate, but probably the most important stat, Chet,
4:02
Speaker 1: is they were 30th in wins at the time of
4:04
Speaker 1: the move.
4:05
Speaker 2: So what was... Okay. I see this and I say
4:08
Speaker 2: to myself, they're just getting rid of anybody that was
4:11
Speaker 2: attached to the previous group. We're slowly cutting that all
4:18
Speaker 2: off and we're going to start over anew here. You
4:21
Speaker 2: see it happen in the corporate world all the time.
4:23
Speaker 2: CEO goes, the three people attached to the CEO eventually
4:27
Speaker 2: find their way out of their offices likewise. Is this
4:30
Speaker 2: a case of that or- Do they not feel Mike
4:35
Speaker 2: Maddox is doing the job? I'm, I guess you give
4:38
Speaker 2: him one season. It's not like he got to go
4:40
Speaker 2: out and choose his pitching staff either. So he's working with,
4:44
Speaker 2: you know, is he trying to carve rotten wood here
4:46
Speaker 2: or what's going on? What, why, why do this right now? Yeah.
4:50
Speaker 1: So, so Chet, I think two things to, to address
4:53
Speaker 1: that one that we shouldn't overlook is he actually worked
4:56
Speaker 1: for John Mosaic in St.
4:58
Speaker 2: Louis.
4:59
Speaker 1: So this isn't necessarily just a case of, John has
5:02
Speaker 1: his own idea of who he wants, and he absolutely
5:06
Speaker 1: wants to go with that guy and has no history
5:08
Speaker 1: with this person. He actually does have a history with Mike,
5:11
Speaker 1: and I think that's somewhat relevant to this conversation. The
5:14
Speaker 1: other thing which I would say is a little bit
5:16
Speaker 1: out of turn here is maybe credit to Perry, hard
5:20
Speaker 1: to really tell, but typically the cadence of these departures
5:24
Speaker 1: is the GM feels extreme pressure from the owner, from
5:29
Speaker 1: the fan base, from the media. They then go and
5:32
Speaker 1: fire coaches to ideally spark some sort of turnaround. When
5:37
Speaker 1: and if that doesn't work, unfortunately, they then go and
5:39
Speaker 1: fire a manager to try to spark some turnaround.
5:42
Speaker 2: It works its way up the ladder, right?
5:43
Speaker 1: Right. And then the GM loses his job. This happened
5:47
Speaker 1: in the reverse, where the GM lost his job first.
5:51
Speaker 1: So when you ask the question, is this just a
5:53
Speaker 1: normal housekeeping? I would say it's anything but. Because typically
5:57
Speaker 1: you would have the coaches lose their role first. The
5:59
Speaker 1: other thing that is of note here, and we've talked
6:02
Speaker 1: about it on the show before, but Kurt Suzuki, their manager,
6:05
Speaker 1: is in his first year with the team, miraculously signed
6:09
Speaker 1: a one-year deal this offseason to manage the team. So
6:12
Speaker 1: the instability of this coaching staff was rife from the beginning.
6:17
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure the length of Mike Maddox's deal,
6:20
Speaker 1: but I believe it was also one year. So when
6:22
Speaker 1: you're hiring major league coaches and major league managers to
6:26
Speaker 1: one-year deals, I think that speaks to the instability of
6:29
Speaker 1: the franchise. And then lo and behold, Perry was on
6:33
Speaker 1: shaky footing. He loses his job. And now the pitching
6:36
Speaker 1: coaches have lost their job. My guess is there may
6:39
Speaker 1: be more moves on the horizon.
6:40
Speaker 2: So this is, I'm guessing, Mozelewicz is trying to bring
6:46
Speaker 2: about what he sees as the ideal group of leadership
6:50
Speaker 2: for this team. And this is just going to keep
6:52
Speaker 2: unfolding as the season kind of goes on. We'll probably
6:55
Speaker 2: hear more about this. Do you think he's eligible for
6:59
Speaker 2: this role next season? Is that the idea? Take the
7:02
Speaker 2: interim tag off of him at some point?
7:05
Speaker 1: So just to build off your previous point, I think
7:07
Speaker 1: it's also worth noting, since he has a history with
7:09
Speaker 1: Mike Maddox, maybe he's also making the executive call that
7:13
Speaker 1: what this franchise needs right now doesn't align perfectly well
7:16
Speaker 1: with Mike Maddox's strength. I don't think anyone could possibly
7:20
Speaker 1: indict Mike Maddox as a great pitching coach. Like he's,
7:24
Speaker 1: he has been a great pitching coach, but that doesn't
7:26
Speaker 1: mean he's a great pitching coach or fit for all circumstances.
7:30
Speaker 1: John Moseley worked with him in St. Louis. He knows
7:33
Speaker 1: how he can excel. Maybe there's just a misalignment he
7:36
Speaker 1: sees right here with the resources they have, the personal
7:38
Speaker 1: they have coming and what Mike's great at doing. So,
7:41
Speaker 1: and then secondarily to address your question about Moe, He
7:46
Speaker 1: has a tremendous track record with the St. Louis Cardinals,
7:51
Speaker 1: winning multiple World Series, taking the team to even more,
7:55
Speaker 1: famously having over a decade of finishing above. 500 with
7:58
Speaker 1: that team, doing something incredible. which, oh, by the way, St.
8:02
Speaker 1: Louis is actually technically a smaller market in terms of
8:05
Speaker 1: revenue generation. But when you went there, you didn't feel that.
8:09
Speaker 1: They were always drawing over 3 million fans per year.
8:11
Speaker 2: Proud fan base there, yeah.
8:13
Speaker 1: Proud fan base, very home field advantage. You felt that
8:17
Speaker 1: every time you stepped into that stadium. John Moselak built
8:20
Speaker 1: that franchise up to what it became. So here he
8:23
Speaker 1: is now in Anaheim. I would say it's a personal
8:26
Speaker 1: decision for Mo. I would think if he has a
8:29
Speaker 1: desire to extend his tenure there that opportunity very well
8:33
Speaker 1: may be there for him. Ostensibly, when the press release
8:36
Speaker 1: came out, he was coming on in a consulting capacity.
8:39
Speaker 1: Part of that consultation was to identify candidates to replace
8:43
Speaker 1: Perry Manassian, yet to be determined whether or not his
8:46
Speaker 1: name actually ends up on that list. But ostensibly, it
8:48
Speaker 1: wasn't designed to be that.
8:50
Speaker 2: Okay, we'll see. Well, I think there's a team out
8:52
Speaker 2: there that's going to get pretty lucky and land Mike
8:54
Speaker 2: Maddox as a pitching coach next season. I think that
8:57
Speaker 2: would be a plus for any squad. I would take
9:00
Speaker 2: him on any of the teams that I root for.
9:02
Speaker 2: Jump real quick. We're going to jump over to the
9:05
Speaker 2: Sacramento A's, which I'm never going to get comfortable calling
9:08
Speaker 2: them that.
9:08
Speaker 1: Well, you won't have to for long, though.
9:10
Speaker 2: I will have to for long. This is true. It'll
9:13
Speaker 2: be the Las Vegas Athletics or the Las Vegas A's
9:16
Speaker 2: on August 7th. The A's and David Forrest parted ways.
9:19
Speaker 2: I'm going to be dead honest with you, Thad. I
9:22
Speaker 2: have been a baseball fan for going on. I mean,
9:24
Speaker 2: a serious baseball fan for going on 25, 30 years.
9:26
Speaker 2: I have no clue who David Forrest is. I've never
9:29
Speaker 2: heard this man's name. It's probably because they're all the
9:31
Speaker 2: way out on the West Coast. I have definitely had
9:34
Speaker 2: this pop up in the past with me. I just
9:36
Speaker 2: hadn't heard of, you know, various front office folks, unless
9:40
Speaker 2: it's a team that I'm cheering for, pulling for, following
9:43
Speaker 2: very closely. Now, maybe I need to dig in a
9:46
Speaker 2: little more if we're going to do more of these
9:47
Speaker 2: shows and cover these folks. But what do you know
9:50
Speaker 2: about David Forrest? What are we looking at there? He's
9:52
Speaker 2: been with the organization since 2000, GM since 2015. So
9:56
Speaker 2: he's been around a while. I don't have an excuse,
9:58
Speaker 2: to be honest.
10:00
Speaker 1: So, so I think part of the reason maybe you
10:02
Speaker 1: have not heard as much about David Forrest is because
10:05
Speaker 1: he has worked a stride. One of the most legendary
10:08
Speaker 1: GMs of our lifetimes, Chet in Billy Bean. So I think, yes, so,
10:14
Speaker 1: So you've heard of him. So I think that's part
10:16
Speaker 1: of the reason David doesn't probably get quite as much
10:19
Speaker 1: fanfare because Billy has gotten so much and deservedly so.
10:22
Speaker 1: This franchise has been revolutionary in what they've accomplished. And
10:26
Speaker 1: that's been under Billy's tenure, but it's also been with
10:30
Speaker 1: David serving as his chief lieutenant and then going on
10:33
Speaker 1: to become the general manager there. So David Forrest actually
10:37
Speaker 1: started the same year I did in our careers. We've
10:40
Speaker 1: been friends throughout. We have a lot of shared conversations
10:46
Speaker 1: and confidence about some of the challenges of these roles.
10:49
Speaker 1: He went to a little school in Cambridge called Harvard
10:52
Speaker 1: where he played baseball.
10:53
Speaker 2: So he's a smart kid. Yes.
10:56
Speaker 1: He's from the Bay Area. He then went to work
10:59
Speaker 1: for kind of the quasi hometown team in the Oakland
11:02
Speaker 1: Athletics in 2000. He then ascended to become the GM
11:07
Speaker 1: when Billy took a step down And he's been running
11:09
Speaker 1: that franchise for over a decade now.
11:11
Speaker 2: And that I think you've probably explained. I mean, it's
11:13
Speaker 2: just a slight case of overshadowing. And again, more my
11:18
Speaker 2: lack of knowledge than anything else. But I do look
11:22
Speaker 2: at the Sacramento A's and I think of who they have.
11:25
Speaker 2: They have some very talented ballplayers on that team. They're
11:30
Speaker 2: based on who they've got rolling, especially young guys. And
11:33
Speaker 2: maybe that's part of the issue. It's a lot of
11:35
Speaker 2: younger guys. who haven't taken that next step yet. I mean,
11:38
Speaker 2: you've got Jacob Wilson, you've got Kurtz, you've got Lang Lears.
11:41
Speaker 2: Lang Lears did get injured, so out for most of
11:44
Speaker 2: the season here with his injury. You've got Rooker, who
11:47
Speaker 2: was a former twin farmhand, who's kind of come up
11:50
Speaker 2: and done something with the A's over the last couple seasons.
11:54
Speaker 2: I guess I'm looking at that team, and I'm wondering
11:56
Speaker 2: where they've fallen on hard times, and it appears as
11:59
Speaker 2: the pitching staff has been under-armed recently. so to speak.
12:05
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts there?
12:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I think when you
12:10
Speaker 1: rattle off those names, Chet, that's an envious core of
12:14
Speaker 1: offensive players. Maybe of note is they're all offensive players.
12:19
Speaker 1: And so it's a bit of a lopsided team right now.
12:23
Speaker 1: It is very, their strength of the team is on
12:25
Speaker 1: the offensive side. It is not on the pitching side.
12:29
Speaker 1: What is magnifying and the thing that we'll get into
12:32
Speaker 1: after the break here is Where they're playing right now
12:35
Speaker 1: is unforgiving for pitching. So their pitching is a little substandard.
12:39
Speaker 1: The environment is exacerbating that. It's led to a very
12:42
Speaker 1: challenging environment for them. Stay with us through the break
12:45
Speaker 1: on Rosters to Rings.
12:55
Speaker 2: Welcome back, listeners, to Rosters to Rings. We're kind of
12:59
Speaker 2: covering the shifting ground here in Major League Baseball. Some managers,
13:04
Speaker 2: GMs losing their position, pitching coach losing their positions. It
13:08
Speaker 2: is August. It's getting late in the season. These things
13:10
Speaker 2: are going to happen. We were just talking about David
13:13
Speaker 2: Forrest with the Sacramento A's. We covered the Angels and
13:18
Speaker 2: Mike Maddox and the pitching staff, pitching coach staff there.
13:21
Speaker 2: We moved to the Houston Astros on August 24th. The
13:24
Speaker 2: Astros parted ways with general manager Dana Brown. And I
13:28
Speaker 2: do believe that their manager is leaving at season's end. Likewise,
13:31
Speaker 2: I believe that was just declared this past week in
13:33
Speaker 2: the news. Thad, is there something different about the Astros here?
13:38
Speaker 2: This is a team. I constantly look at them and think,
13:41
Speaker 2: how are they winning? They don't spend the most money
13:45
Speaker 2: in Major League Baseball. They don't particularly draft the youngest,
13:49
Speaker 2: hottest names. They seem to be going out and kind
13:52
Speaker 2: of picking up a lot of reclamation projects, guys that
13:54
Speaker 2: people have overlooked. Maybe they're a little too old to
13:56
Speaker 2: be considered. a prime, a premier prospect, so to speak
14:00
Speaker 2: in a draft. What are your, what's your assessment of
14:02
Speaker 2: the Astros at this point in time?
14:04
Speaker 1: Well, I think as you juxtapose what's going on with
14:07
Speaker 1: the A's against the Astros, it's a tale of very
14:10
Speaker 1: different tales here. So different stories. So in, in, in,
14:15
Speaker 1: in the A's situation, as we just discussed, you've got
14:18
Speaker 1: a group that has been intact since 2000. They've had
14:22
Speaker 1: two GMs during that time, Billy Bean and now David Forrest.
14:25
Speaker 1: And as a point of reference over that same time,
14:28
Speaker 1: Anaheim has had six different GMs, Boston six, Miami six,
14:32
Speaker 1: the Mets have had eight. Well, Houston's a little bit
14:34
Speaker 1: more along that side where there's been more turnover ever
14:37
Speaker 1: since Jeff Lue now has left that organization. During David
14:40
Speaker 1: Forrest's time with the A's, give them a ton of credit.
14:44
Speaker 1: They've had 11 postseason appearances. They've been above 500 winning team.
14:50
Speaker 1: With the 28th highest payroll during that time, they've posted
14:53
Speaker 1: the 10th best wins. Well, there's been a lot more
14:56
Speaker 1: instability in Houston, as you just referenced. So, you know,
14:59
Speaker 1: just to level set us and to talk precedentially, the
15:04
Speaker 1: previous general manager before Dana Brown was James Click. James
15:08
Speaker 1: Click famously took the team to the World Series in 2022,
15:12
Speaker 1: won the World Series, and six days later parted ways.
15:17
Speaker 1: Why did he part ways? It was because the owner
15:19
Speaker 1: at that time was rumored to have offered him a
15:22
Speaker 1: one-year extension from as thanks for winning the World Series,
15:25
Speaker 1: and he didn't deem that worthy of his time, so
15:30
Speaker 1: he left the franchise. So the franchise last let their
15:34
Speaker 1: GM go when they won a World Series. Here they're
15:36
Speaker 1: letting Dana Brown go, Chet, when the team is actually
15:40
Speaker 1: a half game out of first place. Now, I think
15:43
Speaker 1: we have to look at both sides of this coin. Yes,
15:45
Speaker 1: they're technically a half game out. We've talked about it
15:47
Speaker 1: in shows past. The American League is beleaguered right now.
15:51
Speaker 2: The whole American.
15:52
Speaker 1: League West has negative run differential.
15:55
Speaker 2: Exactly.
15:56
Speaker 1: Right now, if the playoffs started in the American League,
15:59
Speaker 1: two of the six participants would have a negative run differential. Chet,
16:02
Speaker 1: that's happened six times in the last 10 years. It
16:05
Speaker 1: could happen twice this year.
16:07
Speaker 2: Sure. They're a half game out of the playoffs. But
16:09
Speaker 2: they're also a game under.
16:11
Speaker 1: 500.
16:11
Speaker 2: Their pitching ranks 26th. Their offense only ranks 10th. I mean,
16:14
Speaker 2: not bad, but not exactly a playoff team offense there.
16:19
Speaker 2: They do have Jordan Alvarez, who's probably, probably going to
16:23
Speaker 2: be the MVP in the American League. I think he's
16:25
Speaker 2: kind of tracking for that right now. Do you think... Now,
16:31
Speaker 2: are they ever going to get past the whole trash
16:32
Speaker 2: can thing? Do people just hate the Astros because of
16:36
Speaker 2: the trash can World Series? I... I feel like we
16:40
Speaker 2: can get past that eventually, right?
16:42
Speaker 1: Eventually, but it hasn't been yet. So as a GM
16:46
Speaker 1: of the Minnesota Twins, and we had Carlos Correa in
16:49
Speaker 1: my tenure there, every ballpark we went to, he got
16:53
Speaker 1: booed relentlessly. The irony of that, Chet, in my mind,
16:57
Speaker 1: they still do, every one of these guys. The thing
17:00
Speaker 1: that is remarkable to me is in your very own Detroit,
17:04
Speaker 1: they would boo him while their manager was A.J.
17:07
Speaker 2: Hinch.
17:08
Speaker 1: And in Boston, where Alex Cora was the longtime manager,
17:11
Speaker 1: they were booing him when their manager was part of
17:14
Speaker 1: those teams. It's just remarkable the vitriol that fans have
17:19
Speaker 1: against that team. I'm not sure they're going to be
17:22
Speaker 1: able to shake that. That is a significant thing. The
17:25
Speaker 1: other thing I would just say about Dana Brown is
17:27
Speaker 1: in my career, Dana Brown has had as good a
17:30
Speaker 1: reputation as anybody has in terms of scouting and player development.
17:34
Speaker 1: And I think the thought was When they hired him,
17:37
Speaker 1: Jim Crane brought him in to replace James Click. The
17:40
Speaker 1: team really needed to rebuild their farm system. Their talent
17:44
Speaker 1: was at the major league level. Their talent was leaving
17:46
Speaker 1: the organization in the name of free agency. They needed
17:51
Speaker 1: to replenish the stock. Unfortunately, as we sit here, Dana
17:55
Speaker 1: was only there three plus seasons. They still rank in
17:58
Speaker 1: the range of 28th to 30th in best farm system.
18:01
Speaker 1: So I think the owner was looking perhaps past just
18:05
Speaker 1: the major league record in performance to see how the
18:09
Speaker 1: underpinnings of the organization were doing. Maybe that's where he
18:12
Speaker 1: felt a little bit of a disconnect with Dana and
18:15
Speaker 1: himself at this point in their collective careers.
18:18
Speaker 2: Over in the Astros, and I think you were the
18:20
Speaker 2: one who told me this at one point in time,
18:21
Speaker 2: the Astros have been kind of known for operating the
18:24
Speaker 2: fringes when it comes to scouting, player development, the guys
18:27
Speaker 2: they're signing. free agents, international signings, things of that nature.
18:32
Speaker 2: And as their system shows, they're between 28th and 30th.
18:36
Speaker 2: They don't have the strongest farm system, but they always
18:39
Speaker 2: seem to produce these guys out of thin air. They
18:42
Speaker 2: always seem to find that guy, right?
18:44
Speaker 1: Well, so I think two things have happened for them.
18:47
Speaker 1: When Jeff Luna was running the franchise, they absolutely embraced
18:51
Speaker 1: the notion that the best thing in the game is
18:54
Speaker 1: to win. The second best thing is to lose as
18:56
Speaker 1: much as you can. They embraced tanking at a level
18:58
Speaker 1: most teams weren't comfortable doing. They lost 100 games in
19:02
Speaker 1: three consecutive years, and they picked at the top of
19:05
Speaker 1: the draft, and they did extremely well when they made
19:08
Speaker 1: those selections. Concurrently, they also were leveraging a strategy in
19:13
Speaker 1: the international markets. You can sign players when you're 16
19:16
Speaker 1: outside of the United States, Canada, and Puerto Rico. What
19:20
Speaker 1: they were doing is most teams are exclusively signing 16-year-olds.
19:24
Speaker 1: They went and signed pitchers who were 18 to 20
19:27
Speaker 1: years old, players who had been forgotten by other teams
19:30
Speaker 1: passed over and they were signing them for very small
19:34
Speaker 1: dollar amounts. So think of Frambois Valdez, Christian Javier, Brian Abreu,
19:40
Speaker 1: guys like that. These guys who have come up and
19:42
Speaker 1: done extremely well for them, all of whom were signed
19:46
Speaker 1: for somewhere between $ 10, 000 and $ 50, 000. So they were spending
19:50
Speaker 1: lavishly on the draft at the top of the draft,
19:53
Speaker 1: but they were also spending extremely wisely in the international markets.
19:57
Speaker 1: Those two pipelines have somewhat dried up over the recent
20:00
Speaker 1: time for the Houston Astros.
20:02
Speaker 2: It seems as much. So- I want to take a
20:06
Speaker 2: slightly different direction here. We talk about the amount of
20:10
Speaker 2: money being spent by these teams. We looked at the
20:13
Speaker 2: A's a minute ago. They're getting rid of Dave Forrest.
20:15
Speaker 2: They also are 28th in total payroll spend right now.
20:20
Speaker 2: We seem to have a lack of parity in Major
20:23
Speaker 2: League Baseball. A couple weeks ago, we had Ryan Spielberg
20:26
Speaker 2: on the show, and he talked about how putting a
20:29
Speaker 2: salary ceiling in, a salary cap in, is not going
20:32
Speaker 2: to create parity in Major League Baseball. I know that
20:36
Speaker 2: You and I have a slightly different opinion of that.
20:38
Speaker 2: I'm not saying Ryan's wrong per se, but I don't agree.
20:43
Speaker 2: I think it would create some parity. Naturally, if players
20:46
Speaker 2: want to go to the West and East Coast and
20:48
Speaker 2: all the money in the world is there to sign
20:50
Speaker 2: them and there's no cap on it, yeah, they're going
20:52
Speaker 2: to go. But the second the Dodgers say, hey, we
20:55
Speaker 2: can't pay you $ 50 million a season for the next
20:57
Speaker 2: seven years. We don't have the cap space. It's against
21:00
Speaker 2: the rules now. If that player, they say, hey, but
21:03
Speaker 2: we'll pay you 15 because that's what we got left
21:05
Speaker 2: in cap space. is that player going to be like, yeah,
21:07
Speaker 2: I really want to play in LA. Give me the
21:09
Speaker 2: 15 mil a year. No, they're going to go look
21:11
Speaker 2: for their 45, 50 from a team with cap space
21:13
Speaker 2: who potentially has to get above a floor. I think
21:17
Speaker 2: that those two things can work hand in hand and
21:19
Speaker 2: keep these players making money and create a little parody
21:22
Speaker 2: and drive them to different teams. What are your, what
21:24
Speaker 2: are your thoughts here? We've got a lot of stats
21:26
Speaker 2: around this. We're going to throw out there.
21:28
Speaker 1: So, so Chip, when I, I've negotiated a lot of
21:30
Speaker 1: deals in my career and I feel very fortunate to
21:33
Speaker 1: have had those opportunities and, The vast majority, and we
21:37
Speaker 1: had a very good conversation with B.B.
21:39
Speaker 2: Abbott.
21:39
Speaker 1: He approaches it slightly differently. But the vast majority of
21:42
Speaker 1: those conversations, the thing that drives where the player is
21:45
Speaker 1: going to go is where's the most money. And there's
21:48
Speaker 1: no shame in that. These guys' careers are very fleeting.
21:52
Speaker 1: They want to make sure they can take care of
21:53
Speaker 1: their family, their kids, maybe their parents, and so on
21:56
Speaker 1: and so forth.
21:57
Speaker 2: Well, can we say it this way, though, Thad? Maybe
21:58
Speaker 2: it's It's not just the most money, but if it's
22:02
Speaker 2: between a couple million dollars in a 40 million a
22:05
Speaker 2: year deal, that AAV, they're probably going to go to
22:09
Speaker 2: the city they want to be in versus the other.
22:11
Speaker 2: But if it's 10 million, I think you're talking differently then, right?
22:15
Speaker 2: Without question.
22:16
Speaker 1: And so there's always going to be a gravitational pull
22:19
Speaker 1: to the most money. The secondary things which do matter
22:22
Speaker 1: for guys, especially as you referenced, when the money is
22:25
Speaker 1: all equal and fair is It's the location. It's how
22:28
Speaker 1: competitive that market may be at that time. But it's
22:32
Speaker 1: really the first criteria is the funds. And so let's
22:35
Speaker 1: just take a look at it. We can debate Spilly,
22:39
Speaker 1: and he deserves to be back on at some point
22:41
Speaker 1: so he can deliver his side of this. But let's
22:44
Speaker 1: just talk about some of the facts. If you look
22:46
Speaker 1: at the last five years, the teams that have spent
22:50
Speaker 1: the most money, the top 10 payroll teams... represent seven
22:53
Speaker 1: of the teams that have won the most games over
22:55
Speaker 1: the last five years come out of the top 10 payrolls.
22:58
Speaker 1: That's just a fact. And the three teams that are
23:00
Speaker 1: exceptions in terms of being in the top 10 in
23:03
Speaker 1: payroll but not in top 10 teams and wins are
23:06
Speaker 1: three teams that we've seen a lot of turnover in,
23:08
Speaker 1: the Mets, Boston, and Texas. Interestingly, it should be noted,
23:11
Speaker 1: while Texas sits outside of the top 10 and wins,
23:14
Speaker 1: they're the one of that group that has actually won
23:16
Speaker 1: a World Series in the last five years. They did
23:18
Speaker 1: it in 2023.
23:18
Speaker 2: With Mike Maddox as their pitching coach, I believe.
23:22
Speaker 1: Right. full circle here. So two of the teams that
23:25
Speaker 1: have won the most games in the last five years,
23:29
Speaker 1: the top 10, come from the middle 10 payrolls, and
23:31
Speaker 1: that's Milwaukee and Seattle. And Milwaukee over the last five
23:34
Speaker 1: years is actually ranking second only behind the Dodgers in wins.
23:38
Speaker 1: There's only one team from the bottom 10 payrolls who
23:41
Speaker 1: sit in the top 10 in wins. That's Tampa Bay.
23:44
Speaker 1: If you expand that to finishing in the top 15
23:47
Speaker 1: in wins, there are two additional teams, Cleveland and Baltimore,
23:50
Speaker 1: that sneak into being in the bottom 10 payrolls in
23:54
Speaker 1: the top 15 wins, that just doesn't speak to parity
23:57
Speaker 1: to me, Chet. That speaks to the fact that the
23:59
Speaker 1: haves are continuing to separate themselves from the have-nots. And
24:03
Speaker 1: the rest of us are content with this notion that 70%
24:06
Speaker 1: of these playoff berths are coming from the top 10 payrolls.
24:09
Speaker 1: The bottom 20 teams are scrapping and fighting for the
24:13
Speaker 1: other 30% of playoff berths. That's just not enough to
24:16
Speaker 1: go around for the other 20 teams.
24:18
Speaker 2: And I look at these teams, you know, Cleveland- Cleveland
24:21
Speaker 2: gets in, it's like the AL Central is like the
24:23
Speaker 2: division of pours here, okay? You've got five teams that
24:27
Speaker 2: do not spend any money. And so it's kind of
24:29
Speaker 2: like whoever can just battle and slug it out and
24:32
Speaker 2: eke their way in, game on the edges type stuff.
24:35
Speaker 2: And Cleveland has been fortunate enough to get into the
24:38
Speaker 2: postseason with that lower payroll. If they were in a
24:42
Speaker 2: better division, I don't think that works. And maybe that
24:45
Speaker 2: means if they were in a better division, they'd spend more?
24:48
Speaker 2: Maybe they're saying we don't have to spend that much
24:50
Speaker 2: to get there?
24:51
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly it. Because if you look at
24:52
Speaker 1: it right now, if the season were to end today,
24:56
Speaker 1: no team from the American League Central or the American
24:58
Speaker 1: League West would qualify for the playoffs in the National League.
25:02
Speaker 1: Nine of the top 12 teams would come out of
25:04
Speaker 1: the National League. Only the three teams in the American League, Tampa,
25:08
Speaker 1: the Yankees, and the Red Sox would be in the playoffs.
25:10
Speaker 1: There would be no participation from the Central and the West.
25:13
Speaker 1: So I think your insight is exactly right. When I
25:16
Speaker 1: worked in the American League Central, We counted our blessings
25:19
Speaker 1: every single day that there wasn't a payroll behemoth in
25:21
Speaker 1: that division. As a result, truly, all you need to
25:26
Speaker 1: do is win your division. And in this year's case,
25:29
Speaker 1: right now, as we sit here, the Chicago White Sox
25:31
Speaker 1: actually would get a bye in the American League. They
25:34
Speaker 1: wouldn't even make the playoffs.
25:35
Speaker 2: In the National League. Exactly. They would not even make
25:37
Speaker 2: the playoffs in the National League. They would get a
25:39
Speaker 2: bye in the American League. Also, going back to the
25:42
Speaker 2: Houston Astros being a half game out of the playoffs
25:44
Speaker 2: right now, And their ownership kind of knowing we aren't
25:47
Speaker 2: a great team, but we're in a terrible division. So
25:50
Speaker 2: we're still alive somehow. And we're crushing everybody if they were.
25:54
Speaker 1: There's seven teams in the American League within four and
25:57
Speaker 1: a half games of the last wild card spot. Six
25:59
Speaker 1: of the seven have a negative run differential. And they
26:02
Speaker 1: have records to reflect that. The team that actually has
26:05
Speaker 1: the positive run differential is sitting in seventh place out
26:07
Speaker 1: of that group. And that's your Detroit Tigers. who have
26:10
Speaker 1: one of the best run differentials in the American League.
26:12
Speaker 2: But we can't seem to beat the Pirates and the Royals, unfortunately.
26:18
Speaker 1: Right. But maybe still have one run left in them
26:20
Speaker 1: because all it may take is one run to start
26:23
Speaker 1: really leapfrogging some of these teams. It looks as if
26:27
Speaker 1: you can finish 500 or better in the American League
26:30
Speaker 1: West or Central, you've got a chance of not only
26:32
Speaker 1: playing in the playoffs, but if you look at the
26:34
Speaker 1: track to the playoffs right now, the fourth and fifth
26:38
Speaker 1: seeds are likely going to be two teams from the
26:40
Speaker 1: American league East, whoever doesn't win the division and whoever
26:44
Speaker 1: finishes in third, those two teams will play each other
26:46
Speaker 1: in the first round. The winner will play the team
26:49
Speaker 1: that won the American league East because the four or
26:51
Speaker 1: five winner will play the number one seed, which is
26:53
Speaker 1: tracking to be Tampa. So that means one team from
26:56
Speaker 1: the American league East is guaranteed to be in the
27:00
Speaker 1: American league championship series, but that also means only one
27:03
Speaker 1: can get there. So one of these teams from the
27:05
Speaker 1: central of the West is going to get a bit
27:08
Speaker 1: of a cakewalk to the American League Championship Series, and
27:13
Speaker 1: they'll have to face off with one of these American
27:15
Speaker 1: League teams.
27:15
Speaker 2: With one of the behemoths, right? I mean, one of
27:17
Speaker 2: the bigger teams. So, I mean, I guess when I
27:21
Speaker 2: look at this, I wonder to myself, you know, the
27:24
Speaker 2: baseball used to have a fairly narrow path for the postseason.
27:28
Speaker 2: You had to be one of about four or six
27:31
Speaker 2: teams on either side of the league to even get
27:34
Speaker 2: to the postseason. Now we've expanded the playoffs. We've got
27:37
Speaker 2: the wild card in there. We've got, do you think
27:40
Speaker 2: that that kind of, I don't want to say waters
27:43
Speaker 2: down who makes it into the post season? Cause obviously
27:45
Speaker 2: it does do a bit. It's keeping more teams in
27:47
Speaker 2: it for a longer period of time. This conversation with
27:52
Speaker 2: all these teams that are on the cusp of half
27:54
Speaker 2: game out and probably isn't happening 10 to 15 years
27:57
Speaker 2: ago before we had the wild card series happening.
27:59
Speaker 1: Right. Right. And I think Chet also, here's the distinction
28:02
Speaker 1: in baseball. It's, Getting to the playoffs is one thing.
28:05
Speaker 1: Winning when you get there is an entirely different thing.
28:08
Speaker 1: And when you look at the last five years of
28:11
Speaker 1: playoff games, there's been a total of 208 playoff games
28:13
Speaker 1: played in Major League Baseball over the last five years.
28:16
Speaker 1: Teams with the bottom 10 payroll, so the bottom third
28:19
Speaker 1: of the teams, of those 10 teams, three have not
28:22
Speaker 1: appeared in the playoffs at all. That's the A's, Pirates,
28:24
Speaker 1: and Nationals. Three have appeared but have not won a
28:26
Speaker 1: single game in the last five years. That's Baltimore, Cincinnati,
28:29
Speaker 1: and Miami. Arizona represents a disproportionate number of the wins.
28:34
Speaker 1: They won nine in 2023 en route to going to
28:37
Speaker 1: the World Series. That year, they actually were technically 19th
28:40
Speaker 1: in payroll, so they weren't even in the bottom third,
28:42
Speaker 1: but over the last five years, they have been. But overall,
28:45
Speaker 1: as a group, of those 208 games, this group has
28:48
Speaker 1: only won 23 of the games of the total 208.
28:52
Speaker 1: They've won 11% of the playoff games over the last
28:55
Speaker 1: five years, and it's not much prettier for the middle
28:58
Speaker 1: 10 group. That group has two teams that haven't appeared
29:01
Speaker 1: in the playoffs either, the Rockies and Angels. Three have
29:04
Speaker 1: not won a single playoff game, and they've won 31
29:07
Speaker 1: or 15 of the total playoff games. Now we dive
29:10
Speaker 1: into the top 10 payroll teams. All 10 have at
29:13
Speaker 1: least one playoff appearance in the last five years. All
29:15
Speaker 1: 10 have at least seven postseason wins in the last
29:19
Speaker 1: five years. They boast the top eight in total playoff
29:22
Speaker 1: wins over the last five seasons. So Eight of the
29:25
Speaker 1: top 10 teams who've won games in the last five
29:28
Speaker 1: years come from the top 10 payrolls. And they have
29:32
Speaker 1: 154 playoff wins during that time. 74% of the playoff
29:37
Speaker 1: games in the last five years have been won by
29:39
Speaker 1: top 10s.
29:40
Speaker 2: Payroll teams.
29:41
Speaker 1: That is a staggering figure. So yes, some of these
29:44
Speaker 1: middle and smaller market teams are getting there. They're just
29:47
Speaker 1: simply not winning when they get there. The Dodgers have
29:50
Speaker 1: more wins in the last five years in the playoffs
29:52
Speaker 1: than the entire middle 10 teams combined or the bottom
29:57
Speaker 1: 10 teams combined.
29:58
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things that sticks out to
30:00
Speaker 2: me because my team I cheer for plays with a
30:03
Speaker 2: few of these teams, the same division, you've got four
30:06
Speaker 2: of the bottom 10 smallest markets in MLB since 2000.
30:11
Speaker 2: Because I think a lot of the stats that you've
30:14
Speaker 2: spat back at me over the years and stuff that
30:15
Speaker 2: you've provided even for this show, we go back to
30:19
Speaker 2: 2000 because I think the economics of baseball changed drastically
30:21
Speaker 2: after 2000 and prior to 2000. And if you look,
30:24
Speaker 2: a lot of these teams were in post seasons and
30:27
Speaker 2: when it was more difficult to get to the post
30:29
Speaker 2: season prior to the economics of baseball, taking a huge leap,
30:32
Speaker 2: but St. Louis been there six times. They have two wins. Okay.
30:36
Speaker 2: They are, they kind of remind me from the early
30:39
Speaker 2: two thousands into the 2000 teams. They remind me of
30:42
Speaker 2: that team that just kept making the NL central. They
30:44
Speaker 2: keep beating my cubs, kept making it to the post season.
30:47
Speaker 2: They had, they kind of ran the NL central for
30:50
Speaker 2: many years there. And that like the AL central, nobody
30:53
Speaker 2: was spending money. In that division at that point in time.
30:56
Speaker 2: So it gave them this open door. Casey's been there
30:59
Speaker 2: twice and they've won it once, but we haven't seen
31:01
Speaker 2: Casey in a post-season in a little while per, per my,
31:05
Speaker 2: when I look back Cleveland, one appearance, Colorado, one appearance
31:10
Speaker 2: in the world series. That's it in 27, 26 years.
31:13
Speaker 2: So I think there is definitely a parody issue here
31:17
Speaker 2: that I think we're seeing it play out. And if
31:20
Speaker 2: we're not willing to put a cap in place, I
31:22
Speaker 2: don't think we'll ever know if it's truly effective or
31:25
Speaker 2: not at creating that parity. Is that something that you
31:28
Speaker 2: think is safe to say at this point? I mean,
31:30
Speaker 2: you can set the cap high and I'm a big
31:33
Speaker 2: fan of the floor, but if we don't get a cap,
31:36
Speaker 2: nobody can sit there and say that it won't create parity,
31:39
Speaker 2: at least until that happens.
31:40
Speaker 1: I think we are, as a sport, we are certainly
31:44
Speaker 1: leaning into this notion that we've had more teams appear
31:47
Speaker 1: in the playoffs than the other leagues. And that does
31:49
Speaker 1: stand true. We have had about 50% of our teams
31:54
Speaker 1: appear in the playoffs in the last 10 years. And
31:56
Speaker 1: that is more than the NFL and the NBA. Not
31:58
Speaker 1: dramatically more, but it is more.
32:00
Speaker 2: But we have expanded it to make it.
32:01
Speaker 1: We have expanded it. And I think what we're missing
32:05
Speaker 1: is exactly the point you made, Chet, which is, yes,
32:08
Speaker 1: they're getting there. But when you talk about over the
32:12
Speaker 1: last 50 teams to participate in the World Series, only
32:16
Speaker 1: four of them coming from small markets. And let's keep
32:19
Speaker 1: in mind, St. Louis has tremendous revenue generation. Their payroll
32:23
Speaker 1: has never been a small market payroll. Kansas City's was,
32:26
Speaker 1: Cleveland was, Colorado was at time. They've also sat in
32:29
Speaker 1: the middle tier payrolls. So their payrolls haven't necessarily spoken
32:32
Speaker 1: to them, but we're seeing it in the NBA. We're
32:34
Speaker 1: seeing teams like Oklahoma City and San Antonio in The NFL,
32:39
Speaker 1: we're seeing teams like Kansas City and Green Bay participate
32:42
Speaker 1: and play for and win championships and so forth. So
32:47
Speaker 1: I think the part that you and I probably disagree
32:50
Speaker 1: a little bit with Spilly on is this notion that
32:53
Speaker 1: we clearly have parity. We don't need to change. I
32:55
Speaker 1: think the part that you and I probably do agree
32:57
Speaker 1: with Spilly on is the notion that you just brought up,
33:00
Speaker 1: which is let's just get very aggressive. If we want
33:03
Speaker 1: to have a ceiling, let's have a very aggressive floor.
33:06
Speaker 1: which is to say, let's raise that floor up because
33:09
Speaker 1: if we do that, we'll get more money to the players.
33:11
Speaker 1: We'll share more of the money and the revenue with
33:13
Speaker 1: the players. That also seems equitable and fair. That should
33:18
Speaker 1: lend itself to more parity, but let's stop fixating on
33:22
Speaker 1: the fact that the taboo nature of a ceiling, let's
33:26
Speaker 1: more focus on how much can we move that floor
33:28
Speaker 1: up so that every fan out there It's not that
33:30
Speaker 1: we're against dynasties. It's we're against this notion that only
33:33
Speaker 1: five markets can actually experience a dynasty.
33:35
Speaker 2: Moving the floor up is the one true thing that'll
33:38
Speaker 2: make the cheap owner, quote unquote, pay a little more, right?
33:42
Speaker 2: I mean, if you don't put a cap, you put
33:46
Speaker 2: a cap in there, doesn't mean they're going to spend
33:47
Speaker 2: more money, okay? They might have more players out there
33:50
Speaker 2: to pick from, but doesn't mean that certain GMs are
33:54
Speaker 2: going to spend more money. But if you put the
33:56
Speaker 2: floor in there, it forces their hand, and they're going
33:59
Speaker 2: to have to go out and find a few guys
34:01
Speaker 2: to get above that floor. I like the floor better maybe, though,
34:05
Speaker 2: than anything else they could do.
34:08
Speaker 1: You know, there's going to be a lot of negotiations
34:09
Speaker 1: behind the scene, but a lot of the favor of
34:13
Speaker 1: this will be public opinion. And I do think a
34:17
Speaker 1: public relations tact that the player side could certainly take
34:22
Speaker 1: is rather than fighting this notion of a ceiling, Let's
34:26
Speaker 1: embrace the heck out of the owner's posturing that we
34:29
Speaker 1: want to have more parity and then say the way
34:31
Speaker 1: we think we should achieve parity is by having them
34:34
Speaker 1: spend a lot more consistently on the players. Here's our
34:38
Speaker 1: aggressive platform that we're going to do. Now they shift
34:41
Speaker 1: back to the owners who will then have to say, wait, wait,
34:43
Speaker 1: we don't want to spend that much, but we got
34:46
Speaker 1: our ceiling. We've got our parity. Then how do they
34:49
Speaker 1: dispute the fact that the raising of the floor would
34:51
Speaker 1: actually help the game more? baseball and make it more competitive?
34:55
Speaker 1: I think then the owners have to answer that because
34:57
Speaker 1: I think a subtle element here is as much as
35:01
Speaker 1: the commissioner's side on behalf of the owners would like
35:03
Speaker 1: to have a ceiling, the notion of a floor is
35:06
Speaker 1: problematic for some of the smaller market teams absent of
35:09
Speaker 1: like aggressive revenue sharing. So put the owners back on
35:13
Speaker 1: their heels. Let's really talk about parity and how we
35:16
Speaker 1: can achieve that. Let's achieve that through an aggressive floor
35:19
Speaker 1: in addition to a ceiling rather than the ceiling alone.
35:22
Speaker 2: Folks, when we return, we're going to evaluate some of
35:26
Speaker 2: the worst contracts going right now in baseball, football. We're
35:31
Speaker 2: going to talk about a few guys that kind of
35:33
Speaker 2: stick out for their fan bases.
35:43
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings. We're about to delve into,
35:46
Speaker 1: we just talked about payrolls on the team level. Now
35:50
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the impact of errantly signing
35:54
Speaker 1: a player to a deal that overpays him relative to
35:58
Speaker 1: his contributions. Chet, my positioning in this is that really
36:03
Speaker 1: everyone loses for this. And most GMs, if they were
36:07
Speaker 1: to put out a coffee table book, they have a
36:09
Speaker 1: player or players that they've signed to deals that just
36:12
Speaker 1: unfortunately misaligned with the quality of performance and contribution that
36:17
Speaker 1: that player delivers. Yes, the player gets rich in this.
36:21
Speaker 1: But he also becomes a pariah in his marketplace. And
36:23
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a good thing. You don't want
36:26
Speaker 1: to be the player who's on, unfortunately, those annual articles
36:29
Speaker 1: and lists of here are the 10 worst contracts in
36:33
Speaker 1: baseball or football or the NBA. That is not where
36:36
Speaker 1: you want to live. So I actually don't think players
36:39
Speaker 1: want to be on these lists. I don't think agents
36:41
Speaker 1: want to get their players on this list. So yes,
36:43
Speaker 1: they got paid a lot of money. They're not winning
36:45
Speaker 1: from these. GMs tend to get fired from signing these.
36:50
Speaker 1: Because all of a sudden now you have a failure
36:54
Speaker 1: on your ledger. You also have spent a disproportional amount
36:57
Speaker 1: of your payroll on a singular player who's not contributing.
37:00
Speaker 1: It then tends to cost the fans because now you're
37:04
Speaker 1: not competitive anymore because you've misallocated your funds towards a
37:08
Speaker 1: player who unfortunately, due to maybe it's injury, maybe it's
37:12
Speaker 1: due to decline, is just not performing. So I think
37:15
Speaker 1: the player loses maybe not quite as much as everyone else.
37:18
Speaker 1: The GM tends to lose, and the fans sure as
37:21
Speaker 1: heck lose in this process when you sign players to
37:24
Speaker 1: some of these onerous deals.
37:26
Speaker 2: As a fan, it's one thing to pay a guy
37:29
Speaker 2: and they don't perform. It's another thing to pay a guy,
37:34
Speaker 2: they don't perform, and there's usually some other little thing
37:36
Speaker 2: attached to it. Maybe their attitude goes to pot. Maybe
37:41
Speaker 2: they have some sort of a legal issue that comes
37:45
Speaker 2: trailing along with that massive contract and one of the
37:48
Speaker 2: you know you sent me some for this section you
37:51
Speaker 2: sent me a few guys that we wanted to talk
37:53
Speaker 2: about this week and deshaun watson's one of them so
37:56
Speaker 2: we'll start with football that okay and i this this
38:00
Speaker 2: is a deal that would drive me crazy if i
38:02
Speaker 2: was a browns fan because you have a guy who's
38:05
Speaker 2: a very talented quarterback and at one time was playing
38:09
Speaker 2: up there in the top you know quarter of the
38:11
Speaker 2: quarterbacks in the league easily top 10 um maybe top
38:15
Speaker 2: five at one point in time earned himself a huge
38:18
Speaker 2: contract with the Cleveland Browns. 2022, they signed him to
38:23
Speaker 2: a five-year, $ 230 million contract. You ask Browns fans now
38:27
Speaker 2: how they feel about that deal, it's not going that well.
38:31
Speaker 2: I mean, he was jeered this past week after being
38:34
Speaker 2: named the starter by his own fan base, I believed.
38:37
Speaker 2: at a game at a practice facility or a exhibition
38:40
Speaker 2: of some sort is, I mean, this is a record
38:43
Speaker 2: setting deal. It's guaranteed 230 million fully guaranteed. And I
38:46
Speaker 2: think there's something like 120 still left on this, that
38:50
Speaker 2: he's going to get paid. So what is that like
38:53
Speaker 2: in your eyes? I mean, you've done this in baseball
38:55
Speaker 2: a little bit, but like football, you've got guaranteed money.
38:59
Speaker 2: If it's not guaranteed money, a lot of football contracts
39:01
Speaker 2: don't have that guaranteed money tied to it. They have different,
39:04
Speaker 2: they have a different structure there. Um, it, What is
39:07
Speaker 2: the thought in the front office when you've got this
39:10
Speaker 2: albatross of a contract out there and you got this
39:12
Speaker 2: guy who's just kind of lighting the world on fire
39:15
Speaker 2: under his feet? He's not doing anything on the field.
39:18
Speaker 2: He's got legal issues, maybe an attitude problem. How do
39:22
Speaker 2: you attack that as a front office person?
39:25
Speaker 1: Well, Chet, let's dive into a little bit of the
39:28
Speaker 1: history because it's so unique. You know, I shot you
39:30
Speaker 1: those names, you came back with some real insights as
39:33
Speaker 1: to how this one really stands out as being so unique.
39:36
Speaker 1: And really what prompted the segment was how he is
39:39
Speaker 1: back in the news after Ben, quite frankly, kind of
39:43
Speaker 1: in the shadows for quite some time. But lest we forget,
39:46
Speaker 1: before he signed this record-setting deal, It was in 2021
39:50
Speaker 1: that dozens of civil lawsuits were levied against him by
39:54
Speaker 1: massage therapists for alleged sexual misconduct. At that time, he's
39:59
Speaker 1: part of the Houston Texans. In conjunction with the team,
40:04
Speaker 1: he decides to sit out for the entire 2021 season.
40:07
Speaker 1: And he requests a trade away from that market. So
40:11
Speaker 1: Cleveland first had to trade for him before they signed him,
40:14
Speaker 1: but they traded for him when this transgression was being still,
40:20
Speaker 1: I guess, litigated. And then they get him in 2022.
40:25
Speaker 1: He ultimately gets traded. He signs the deal. He gets
40:28
Speaker 1: suspended for 11 games by the league for his issues.
40:34
Speaker 1: And then from that point forward, It's been just injury
40:38
Speaker 1: after injury. He misses most of the 2023 season with
40:42
Speaker 1: a shoulder issue, and then he had a fracture of
40:46
Speaker 1: his scapula. 2024, he ruptures his Achilles. He then re-ruptures it,
40:51
Speaker 1: so he misses 24 and 25. So this literally could
40:55
Speaker 1: not be going worse. You inherit a player who's got
40:58
Speaker 1: a legal issue, which is going to polarize him to
41:00
Speaker 1: begin with, but you knew that. He then sustains a
41:04
Speaker 1: suspension and effectively... two massive injuries, which have cost him
41:09
Speaker 1: the better part of two and a half seasons. He's
41:12
Speaker 1: in position now to get on the field for really
41:15
Speaker 1: the first time in almost his entire time there, unencumbered.
41:19
Speaker 1: But as you said, when he was announced as a starter,
41:25
Speaker 1: he gets booed for that. So that's the state of
41:28
Speaker 1: affairs here, which almost, I can't imagine a dynamic which
41:33
Speaker 1: could be worse for front office. What is remarkable is
41:36
Speaker 1: Usually when these things happen, unfortunately, the GM loses their job.
41:41
Speaker 1: That hasn't taken place here. The head coach, Kevin Stefanski,
41:44
Speaker 1: lost his job. The GM is still in place, so
41:46
Speaker 1: he's still having to answer these questions of why did
41:49
Speaker 1: they trade for him, why did they sign him, and
41:51
Speaker 1: why are they giving him the starting job?
41:53
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll be curious to see what the 2026
41:55
Speaker 2: version of Deshaun Watson looks like. He's, at one point
41:58
Speaker 2: in time, a very mobile quarterback, can move quite well.
42:02
Speaker 2: He ruptures his Achilles 2024. He re-ruptures his Achilles 2025.
42:07
Speaker 2: Usually doing this more than once is not a good thing.
42:10
Speaker 2: It's one of those things. It's kind of like a
42:12
Speaker 2: concussion almost. It's easier for it to come back and
42:14
Speaker 2: keep happening. I got to believe that's going to hurt
42:18
Speaker 2: his mobility a little bit. But he's been there for
42:21
Speaker 2: three years. He's played 19 games. Browns are paying him
42:25
Speaker 2: nine mil a start. Browns are nine and 10 in
42:28
Speaker 2: his starts. So they paid him quite a bit to
42:30
Speaker 2: lose half the time. And they've paid, you know, just
42:34
Speaker 2: over 19 million per win. The team is 26 and
42:37
Speaker 2: 42 cents. And obviously they've kind of struggled. They've had
42:41
Speaker 2: this carousel of quarterbacks in there to try and fill
42:44
Speaker 2: in the gaps where Deshaun hasn't been able to play.
42:47
Speaker 2: They've got all this money sunk into him. They've drafted guys.
42:50
Speaker 2: Dylan Gabriel's made some appearances. Shador Sanders. I wonder how
42:54
Speaker 2: much of the fan base kind of wishes they could
42:56
Speaker 2: just cut bait and try Shador Sanders out going forward
42:59
Speaker 2: or Dylan Gabriel. I mean, what is the, at this point,
43:02
Speaker 2: it seems like they're stuck.
43:04
Speaker 1: Well, and, and, and Chad, I think the other thing
43:06
Speaker 1: that you illuminate there is the fact that this isn't
43:09
Speaker 1: a team that was rebuilding at this time. They, they
43:12
Speaker 1: got this guy as a bit of a finishing piece.
43:14
Speaker 1: He was one of the more dynamic threats as a quarterback.
43:17
Speaker 1: When they acquired him, they'd already built up their defense
43:21
Speaker 1: during his tenure as The fact that they're 26 and
43:24
Speaker 1: 42 has everything to do with the fact that their
43:26
Speaker 1: defense has been one of the preeminent defenses in the NFL.
43:30
Speaker 1: They've squandered that time. Miles Garrett was, I think, named
43:33
Speaker 1: the defensive player of the year last year. They ultimately
43:36
Speaker 1: trade him because they unfortunately squandered what was one of
43:39
Speaker 1: the better defenses in the game. And Kevin Stefanski immediately
43:44
Speaker 1: gets picked up by the Atlanta Falcons upon his dismissal.
43:47
Speaker 1: So they were viewed to have a competitive advantage at
43:50
Speaker 1: head coach, And on the defensive side of the game,
43:52
Speaker 1: which is probably the side much more difficult to build up,
43:55
Speaker 1: they thought this guy was going to be the piece
43:57
Speaker 1: that took him to the next level. Lo and behold,
44:00
Speaker 1: the fact that he's been what he has been, which
44:03
Speaker 1: is marred with injury and substandard performance, has really set
44:07
Speaker 1: this franchise back during a time where they thought they
44:09
Speaker 1: were poised to strike in what is one of the
44:12
Speaker 1: better divisions in all the NFL.
44:14
Speaker 2: I have a question for you. Kevin Stefanski has been
44:16
Speaker 2: fired recently. If you I don't know if you've had
44:21
Speaker 2: this experience before in baseball, but are there certain organizations that,
44:25
Speaker 2: you know, are just a little weaker? They don't quite
44:27
Speaker 2: operate at the top of their game. And when they
44:31
Speaker 2: let a person go, are you kind of like, hey,
44:33
Speaker 2: that's a quality piece they couldn't make fit? Let's go
44:36
Speaker 2: jump on that guy. Are there certain organizations you keep
44:39
Speaker 2: an eye out for that? We've I have friends of
44:40
Speaker 2: mine that have made jokes that like, you know, if
44:42
Speaker 2: we get a player from X team. they probably weren't
44:45
Speaker 2: utilized right or developed properly. And our team can do better.
44:48
Speaker 2: Like they're a great team to trade with where you
44:50
Speaker 2: got other teams where you're like, I don't want to
44:52
Speaker 2: trade with them. They know what they've got and they
44:53
Speaker 2: do the best with what they have. If they're willing
44:56
Speaker 2: to get rid of prospect day, there probably aren't any good.
44:58
Speaker 2: Is that, is there a little bit of a menu
45:01
Speaker 2: out there for you guys in front offices? It's kind
45:03
Speaker 2: of go here. Don't go there. Yeah.
45:06
Speaker 1: So the answer is absolutely. I think that really factors
45:09
Speaker 1: into player acquisitions. So when you're acquiring players, we have
45:13
Speaker 1: sophisticated systems that identify their talents. Subsequently, we also have
45:18
Speaker 1: systems that identify how underutilized those talents have been. And
45:23
Speaker 1: so if we see a gap there, we are more
45:26
Speaker 1: inclined to pay for that player. Whereas sometimes we find
45:31
Speaker 1: that players are being optimized. And so we just evaluate
45:34
Speaker 1: that a little bit differently. So what you're getting is
45:36
Speaker 1: what you should expect. Whereas sometimes when you're acquiring a
45:39
Speaker 1: player from a franchise that doesn't develop, let's say, pitching
45:42
Speaker 1: quite as well. We think there's a real ground to
45:45
Speaker 1: be made up.
45:45
Speaker 2: There's an upside.
45:47
Speaker 1: Yeah. And Chet, I'll share this with you, that when
45:51
Speaker 1: working with the Milwaukee Brewers, when you talk to players
45:53
Speaker 1: who we acquire, one of the things you hear from
45:56
Speaker 1: them is an enthusiasm and excitement about the perception that
46:00
Speaker 1: we must have resources other teams don't have. And they're
46:02
Speaker 1: ecstatic at the notion that they now get exposed to them.
46:05
Speaker 1: So I think it also cuts both ways, which is
46:08
Speaker 1: not only are we maybe a acquiring people staff players
46:13
Speaker 1: that are in some of these underserved places but I
46:15
Speaker 1: think those players are also desirous of coming to your
46:18
Speaker 1: organization if you if you gain notoriety as doing things
46:22
Speaker 1: a little bit more progressively than others both of those
46:25
Speaker 1: things are creating gaps between the teams that are doing
46:27
Speaker 1: it the right way and teams that are lagging behind
46:30
Speaker 1: but then the other side of this coin because we've
46:32
Speaker 1: talked about the Anaheim Angels and their change of leadership
46:37
Speaker 1: the the the now Sacramento A's and their change of leadership.
46:41
Speaker 1: When you're looking at those through the lens of a
46:44
Speaker 1: perspective candidate to be a GM there, you do look
46:47
Speaker 1: at how much gains can be made significantly quickly and
46:50
Speaker 1: efficiently based upon a evaluation of where are their strengths,
46:55
Speaker 1: where are they a little bit behind. Make no mistake,
46:57
Speaker 1: anytime there's changes, they're deficient in some area. If that
47:01
Speaker 1: matches up with your strength, you can not only hit
47:04
Speaker 1: the ground walking into those jobs, you can hit the
47:06
Speaker 1: ground sprinting and show meaningful gains in those markets in
47:10
Speaker 1: a very short period of time. Whereas if that organization
47:13
Speaker 1: is clicking under all cylinders and just decide to make
47:15
Speaker 1: a change, there's a lot less impact you can have
47:18
Speaker 1: as a potential executive than you may have elsewhere.
47:22
Speaker 2: I'm not going to make you name those organizations. You'll
47:25
Speaker 2: tell me offline, okay? Because I'm very curious to know
47:29
Speaker 2: whom they are. I tried to identify in the NFL
47:32
Speaker 2: here and there, and you kind of can pick up
47:34
Speaker 2: on that stuff. But We'll talk about that later. We
47:36
Speaker 2: won't have you do that on the air. So we're
47:38
Speaker 2: going to go to a guy near and dear in
47:40
Speaker 2: my heart here. This is another contract that you had
47:43
Speaker 2: brought into the fold, and I think it's one of
47:45
Speaker 2: the more obvious baseball contracts. Chris Bryant captivated the Chicago
47:51
Speaker 2: fan bases in the teens. Coming up when he came
47:54
Speaker 2: up in 2014, he was electric. You know, 2015, rookie
47:56
Speaker 2: of the year, 2016 World Series. This guy looked... like
48:05
Speaker 2: he had the surefire Hall of Fame stamp on him.
48:09
Speaker 2: And he was awesome to watch play. He really was.
48:11
Speaker 2: I don't think he was ever an incredible defender or
48:13
Speaker 2: anything like that. But at the plate, he did it,
48:16
Speaker 2: and he did it when it mattered. Then, as sad
48:20
Speaker 2: as Chicago fans get, towards the end of his tenure there,
48:24
Speaker 2: he started to get a little fragile. And I think
48:29
Speaker 2: Chicago dealt him off to San Francisco at midseason during
48:33
Speaker 2: a fairly poor I think it was the 2021 season,
48:37
Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken. And subsequently, he went on to
48:41
Speaker 2: have a decent postseason and stay healthy. He then comes
48:44
Speaker 2: out and Bryant signs a seven-year, $ 182 million contract with
48:49
Speaker 2: the Rockies in 2022. This contract has failed. I mean,
48:55
Speaker 2: this has been one of the saddest things to see
48:57
Speaker 2: in baseball. He can't stay healthy. I believe he has
49:02
Speaker 2: played I think he's had like 700 at bats for
49:07
Speaker 2: the Rockies over the course of the four seasons now. Right.
49:11
Speaker 2: Since 2022 that he's been there, he still hasn't played.
49:14
Speaker 2: I don't think he's had that bad this season yet.
49:16
Speaker 2: Still injured. He's got back issues, you know. it's, this is,
49:21
Speaker 2: this all goes back. They were driven to make this
49:24
Speaker 2: signing because they got rid of Arenado. They traded Arenado off.
49:28
Speaker 2: What do you, does that, do you feel forced into,
49:30
Speaker 2: was that a forced deal? I mean, was, Chris Bryant
49:33
Speaker 2: did not, I remember when he made this signing, they
49:36
Speaker 2: were shopping him around, shopping him around. I was like,
49:37
Speaker 2: none of the big teams are going out and grabbing him.
49:39
Speaker 2: Does somebody know something? Is he still hurt? Is he
49:42
Speaker 2: still a little dinged up? And then the Rockies go
49:44
Speaker 2: and do it. And I'm like, I remember a lot
49:46
Speaker 2: of people saying this seems like a forced, like the
49:48
Speaker 2: Rockies had to do it to appease a fan base.
49:51
Speaker 1: Well, well, Chad, I think this ties a few of
49:53
Speaker 1: the points we've discussed earlier in the episode together, which
49:56
Speaker 1: is when you see a player of this magnitude sign
49:59
Speaker 1: a deal like this with the Colorado Rockies, it does
50:02
Speaker 1: rise an eyebrow because the Colorado Rockies were not particularly
50:06
Speaker 1: competitive in 2022 and Chris Bryant had only ever played
50:11
Speaker 1: in competitive environments. So why would he sign a deal
50:14
Speaker 1: like this there? And I think the only conclusion you
50:17
Speaker 1: could draw is they were the number one bidder and
50:19
Speaker 1: not by a small margin. So whomever finished in second place,
50:22
Speaker 1: my guess will never reveal, but we'll find out was
50:27
Speaker 1: quite in the rear view mirror of the Colorado Rockies here.
50:31
Speaker 1: You brought up the Nolan Arenado deal. And I think
50:33
Speaker 1: this is something none of us aspire to do. But
50:36
Speaker 1: I think sometimes this does happen circumstantially. So remember in 2019,
50:40
Speaker 1: the Colorado Rockies signed Nolan Arenado, a hometown draft pick,
50:44
Speaker 1: a absolute dynamic defensive player. He was winning platinum gloves,
50:49
Speaker 1: which is to say he was the best defender in
50:51
Speaker 1: the National League on a yearly basis. They signed him
50:55
Speaker 1: to a nine-year, $ 275 million deal with a full no
50:59
Speaker 1: trade clause, as he probably deserved. It wasn't... Two seasons
51:03
Speaker 1: later in 2021 that they trade Arenado to St. Louis
51:07
Speaker 1: for three prospects who candidly have not really panned out
51:10
Speaker 1: for them. They also send on $ 51 million to the
51:13
Speaker 1: Cardinals to offset Arenado's salary in kind of a boomerang
51:18
Speaker 1: play because they now have voided their number one marketable asset.
51:24
Speaker 2: He was the face of the franchise.
51:25
Speaker 1: Face of the franchise and deservedly so. They start getting
51:28
Speaker 1: a lot of negative publicity for being cheap and just
51:31
Speaker 1: trying to jettison all the players who are signed to
51:34
Speaker 1: big deals. They feel the pressure. I don't know how
51:37
Speaker 1: much they were pursuing Chris Bryant before this, but this
51:40
Speaker 1: maybe pushes them over the finish line. They signed Chris Bryant,
51:44
Speaker 1: and what's happened since then has been devastating, both for
51:47
Speaker 1: Bryant and for the Rockies. Ernado goes on and is
51:50
Speaker 1: a good, if not very good, player for the Cardinals.
51:54
Speaker 1: He accumulates 20.5 war cents a trade. Since signing Chris Bryant,
51:58
Speaker 1: Chris Bryant has accumulated negative 2.9 war, which makes him
52:03
Speaker 1: one of the worst performing players in the tenure he
52:07
Speaker 1: has had with the Rockies. That's what they got for
52:10
Speaker 1: 182 million. In contrast to the Cleveland Browns situation, GM
52:14
Speaker 1: Jeff Brightish loses his job. Manager Bud Black loses their job.
52:18
Speaker 1: Are they directly related to this deal?
52:21
Speaker 2: Maybe not.
52:21
Speaker 1: But this certainly did not help the cause for those
52:24
Speaker 1: two gentlemen, as now we see a totally different leadership
52:27
Speaker 1: in Colorado. And Chris Bryant, to your point, is sitting
52:30
Speaker 1: on the aisle somewhere. He is not in a position
52:33
Speaker 1: to contribute to this team. A lot of this was
52:36
Speaker 1: health issues. A lot of this was potentially just this
52:40
Speaker 1: was a this just didn't work out for him. But
52:43
Speaker 1: the net effect of this is, unfortunately, this is one
52:46
Speaker 1: of the worst contracts signed in the recent era in
52:49
Speaker 1: Major League Baseball.
52:50
Speaker 2: I mean, he's in a hitter's ballpark, and he has
52:52
Speaker 2: a negative 2.9 war in the games he's played for
52:55
Speaker 2: them over the last four seasons. I remember when this happened,
52:58
Speaker 2: I was like, he's going to crush the ball in
53:00
Speaker 2: that ballpark. He's going to break home run records. He's
53:02
Speaker 2: going to be incredible. And we just haven't even got
53:04
Speaker 2: to see him play. It is sad. You don't like
53:07
Speaker 2: to see that for the player, and he certainly isn't
53:09
Speaker 2: going to be going out on the, you know, cloud
53:12
Speaker 2: nine here with his career, as many people thought he
53:15
Speaker 2: would be. I think these are two instances here where
53:20
Speaker 2: a couple deals have gone sideways. Do deals like this
53:24
Speaker 2: scare GMs away from making these deals? Are these in
53:28
Speaker 2: the back of your head? When you go sign a
53:30
Speaker 2: guy and there's even the slightest little question, a big
53:33
Speaker 2: deal like that, does it kind of stick there? And
53:35
Speaker 2: you kind of say, I don't know if I want
53:37
Speaker 2: to get bit like that guy did.
53:39
Speaker 1: Well, I think the answer is unequivocally yes. So we're
53:43
Speaker 1: a little bit more tolerant to do it on the
53:45
Speaker 1: position player side because they tend to be healthier. This
53:47
Speaker 1: obviously is not that case. The pitching side is very daunting,
53:51
Speaker 1: but you see franchises out there. So, you know, we
53:54
Speaker 1: talked earlier about the New York Mets has had a
53:56
Speaker 1: top 10 payroll for the recent past. They have not
54:00
Speaker 1: been in the top 10 in wins. One of the
54:02
Speaker 1: things that they don't do is they've been very disciplined.
54:05
Speaker 1: They're not signing pitchers to deals longer than three years.
54:08
Speaker 1: They have not signed outside of the Juan Soto deal.
54:11
Speaker 1: They've let a lot of their star caliber position players go. Similarly,
54:16
Speaker 1: one of the things that Jim Crane is famous for
54:18
Speaker 1: in Houston is they also have not paid lavishly for
54:23
Speaker 1: some of these guys. The net effect of that is
54:25
Speaker 1: when you look back to their 2017 World Series group,
54:29
Speaker 1: George Springer is gone. Alex Bregman is gone. Carlos Correa
54:34
Speaker 1: is gone. Justin Verlander is no longer with the team.
54:37
Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned a couple of these guys. Bregman, Kyle
54:39
Speaker 2: Tucker was another of theirs. You got Springer. And those
54:44
Speaker 2: guys also didn't get huge deals coming away from Houston.
54:47
Speaker 2: There were question marks around them. I'm wondering, you know,
54:49
Speaker 2: were people looking at them in a similar light as
54:51
Speaker 2: a Chris Bryant and thinking to themselves, like, these guys
54:54
Speaker 2: could track to that and would probably want to hold back?
54:57
Speaker 2: And so what do they do? They go get that
55:00
Speaker 2: one-year prove-it deal or that one-year Tie me over at
55:04
Speaker 2: a high AAV. So it's a minimal investment for that team, right?
55:08
Speaker 2: Is that kind of the new utility front offices are
55:11
Speaker 2: using when there's question marks around guys like that?
55:14
Speaker 1: Well, that's exactly how the Minnesota Twins were able to
55:16
Speaker 1: play on a player of the caliber of Carlos Correa.
55:19
Speaker 1: His market didn't materialize. We signed him to a one-year
55:22
Speaker 1: deal that then turned into a longer-term relationship. But the
55:25
Speaker 1: safe play for general managers is to never sign these
55:27
Speaker 1: deals because even when we do sign them, we tend
55:30
Speaker 1: to present them to ownership and say, hey, it's a
55:32
Speaker 1: seven-year $ 182 million deal, but let's be realistic. He's probably
55:36
Speaker 1: going to spend one year on the IL. So over
55:38
Speaker 1: the course of those seven, so it's really a six-year 182.
55:41
Speaker 1: We certainly don't expect that the wheels are going to
55:43
Speaker 1: come off this early in the process and really cripple
55:47
Speaker 1: those types of deals. The safe play is to not
55:49
Speaker 1: sign those deals. But if you're safe in these roles
55:52
Speaker 1: and My good friend John Daniels always said, then you're
55:55
Speaker 1: just shooting par and you rarely win a golf tournament
55:58
Speaker 1: shooting par. At some point, you got to take risks
56:00
Speaker 1: and assess risk. You got to fly the water from
56:02
Speaker 1: time to time. Yes, you may drop it in the drink,
56:05
Speaker 1: but you also may get to the green two strokes early.
56:07
Speaker 1: And that's how you win a championship. So it's a
56:10
Speaker 1: risk tolerance setup against making the right calculated decisions. But
56:15
Speaker 1: a lot of general managers who are extremely intelligent have
56:18
Speaker 1: lost their jobs because they took a bigger risk than
56:20
Speaker 1: they should have in a certain circumstance. And it just
56:22
Speaker 1: simply didn't work out.
56:24
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to use that, Thad. You got to
56:26
Speaker 2: fly the water once in a while. I kind of
56:28
Speaker 2: enjoy that. That's great. I'm a golfer. I'm going to
56:30
Speaker 2: use that. Folks, thanks for hanging out with us today
56:34
Speaker 2: on Rosters to Rings. We covered quite a few topics
56:37
Speaker 2: for you. We will be back this Thursday and every
56:40
Speaker 2: Thursday on Rosters to Range.