Latest / Icons of DC Area Real Estate / Ronnie Gibbons- A Builder's Journey into Real Estate Development (#139)

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Ronnie Gibbons- A Builder's Journey into Real Estate Development (#139) · Icons of DC Area Real Estate

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:09
  Speaker B: Hi, I'm John Ko and welcome to Icons of DC Area Real Estate, a one on one interview show featuring the backgrounds, career trajectories and insights of the top luminaries in the Washington D.C. area Real estate market. The purpose of the show was to explore their journeys, how they got started, the pivotal moments that shaped their careers, and the lessons they've learned along the way. We also dive into their current work, industry trends and some fascinating behind the scenes stories that bring unique perspective to our industry. Commercial Real Estate Before I introduce our guest for today's show, I am excited to share some significant news regarding the future of the iconic journey in CRE community After much deliberation and with the full support of our board, we've made the strategic decision to transition our community activities and membership over to the new organization called Station DC in mid-2026. My wife and I are relocating to the Hudson Valley, New York. This move, while exciting for us personally, makes it difficult to think about managing a membership community long distance. This transition ensures that the vibrant spirit and networking opportunities you've come to value will continue and grow. Station dc, led by Executive Director James Barlia, is building a powerful future where American tech dominance endures with D.C. as its nerve center. While their core mission is rooted in defense and hard tech, we've identified significant alignment in areas such as innovation, mentorship and ethical leadership. One of our board members, Sam Glass of Artis Advisors, has agreed to be a liaison for the members of the Ijcre community transitioning to Station DC to keep the spirit of the real estate investment and entrepreneurship alive. With networking and tour opportunities, this move offers incredible benefits to you, to our members, you as members gain access to interdisciplinary networking with founders, policymakers and investors, government and military leaders potentially opening doors for fundraising and new business opportunities previously beyond the scope of our real estate focused group. Station DC also provides a physical clubhouse in NoMa opening in the third week of September, where you can work, meet and collaborate. Furthermore, our members will benefit from discounted access with an annual membership fee of $500, a significant value compared to their standard 1500-2000 $2500 fee. While James Barley preferred not to set up a formal real estate subgroup, an informal real estate oriented activities, networking and programming can absolutely continue among our members within this broader dynamic environment. It's seen as a growth brand and a muscular antidote to DC's decline on offering a founder centric community now, what does this mean for the elements you've come to rely on? While ongoing community engagement, including our mastermind groups will wind down due to the lack of interest as part of this transition. I want to assure you that the icons of D.C. area Real estate Podcast, the ethical leadership blog that I started earlier this year, and the personalized code career counseling opportunities that I offer and have been offering for many years will continue. I will also continue to host the monthly tours and the Ask Me Anything events as I have been over the last several months until my relocation in May of 2026. My podcast, which has over 137 episodes and 65,000 downloads, remains a valuable asset and will revert back to CO Enterprises, my private entity after the my move. In the future, I will share the vision for its ongoing services. We believe this is the most viable path forward, offering a muscular antidote for growth and founder centric community. Thank you for your incredible support and for being a part of this journey. We look forward to seeing our legacy Thrive within Station D.C. welcome to Icons of D.C. area Real Estate. In today's episode, we're honored to host Ronnie Gibbons, the Senior Vice President of Development at Carmel Partners here in the D.C. area. Ronnie spearheads Carmel's entire D.C. region for development and investments, overseeing everything from sourcing new opportunities to managing the execution process. With over 15 years of experience in multifamily residential construction, mixed use, retail and commercial development, Ronnie brings a wealth of knowledge to the table. He holds a Master's degree from Georgetown in Real Estate and a Bachelor's from the University of Maryland. His extensive career includes significant roles at Monument Realty and Folger Pratt before joining Carmel Partners in 2018. Carmel Partners, founded in 1996, is a vertically integrated firm renowned for its expertise in development, asset management, investments and even self performing construction. They are known for their discipline, diligence and focus on coastal gateway cities including our vibrant DC area market driven by job growth and a need for multifamily housing. In this interview, Ronnie will share his career journey from his early start in construction to leading complex and transformative projects like the Annex on 12th conversion in downtown Washington and the Wardman park development, a massive 867 unit project that repurposed a bankrupt hotel site in Wardman Park. He'll delve into how his blue collar upbringing shaped his unique risk mitigating approach to development and how Carmel Partners leverages its distinct culture and advanced data science for more strategic market insights. He'll also offer invaluable advice for young professionals and discuss his personal philosophy on balancing family, work and community. So without further ado, please join us for an engaging conversation With Ronnie Gibbons. So, Ronnie, welcome to icons of D.C. area real estate. Thank you for joining me today.
• 7:26
  Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
• 7:28
  Speaker B: So let's start with the present. What is your current role at Carmel Partners and what does it encompass day to day? If you would, tell me.
• 7:36
  Speaker A: Sure. So I lead the D.C. region for both development and investments. I support on the execution and asset management front as well and spend a lot of time working with construction. But most of my time and energy, it's landed on the pursuits front. So I'm out looking for opportunities, new deals, evaluating everything that's on the market or could be on the market. Working closely with my pursuits team, we're looking at both existing deals with a value add component and always, always looking for development opportunities as well.
• 8:12
  Speaker B: So your company is more in the development phase business as opposed to being an asset management company, or you kind of do both.
• 8:20
  Speaker A: So we're vertically integrated. We do development, asset management, investments. We have capital finance. We self perform constructions. We have a robust construction group here.
• 8:32
  Speaker B: Oh, okay.
• 8:33
  Speaker A: And we work very closely with all groups. There's a lot of overlap, a lot of synergy. We talk to people across all our offices, including the headquarters in San Francisco, just about every day. A lot of zoom activity. I think one of the best things we do at Carmel is leverage our talent, especially at the top tier, where they are very aware of pretty much everything we're doing. We have regular standing meetings, and then everyone's always available. Everyone's very passionate. So we cover a lot of ground.
• 9:08
  Speaker B: That's great. That's great. So let's flip back, do the little time machine here and tell me where you grew up and how did that place shape your outlook on work and the opportunity here?
• 9:21
  Speaker A: Sure. So I was born in Frederick, Maryland, about an hour north of where we're sitting, of course, here in D.C. and about an hour west of Baltimore. And I grew up there, like my dad did and his dad did and his dad.
• 9:34
  Speaker B: Really?
• 9:35
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 9:35
  Speaker B: Wow.
• 9:36
  Speaker A: And growing up in Frederick, I think, is an absolute blessing because it's. I consider it a bit of a microcosm for really the entire United States. It has whatever you're looking for, you can find it there. It has a very rural, backwoods component. It also has a dense urban area. And my schools were extremely diverse all the way through. And not just in terms of, like, race or religion, but also social and economic diversification. It was a ton of exposure to all kinds of ways of life from top to bottom. And that's something I've always appreciated.
• 10:16
  Speaker B: That's Great. So did you go to high school up there then?
• 10:18
  Speaker A: I did. I went to Governor Thomas Johnson.
• 10:21
  Speaker B: Okay, that's cool. And then University of Maryland.
• 10:23
  Speaker A: I understand University of Maryland. Thereafter I did a year at Frederick Community College. Oh, did you went to University of Maryland.
• 10:31
  Speaker B: What'd your parents do? Or do they do?
• 10:34
  Speaker A: I should say My parents are both retired. My dad was a maintenance man at an apartment condo complex in Bethesda for his entire career. Something like 40 years. Wow. He had the same job, long commute, drove from Frederick to Bethesda, most of that. That was back when 270 was two lanes all the way.
• 10:56
  Speaker B: Oh my goodness.
• 10:56
  Speaker A: To Bethesda. So he worked really hard. My mom did daycare in our home, actually.
• 11:02
  Speaker B: Who did he work for? Who did your dad work for? What company?
• 11:05
  Speaker A: Parkside is the name of the community. It's about 1200 garden style condo units right beside the Grosvenor Metro station.
• 11:12
  Speaker B: Oh, sure, yeah. Very close to where I live in Kensington.
• 11:18
  Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. And I actually, my first job was I worked with him when I was 14 years old. As soon as I was legal working age, I spent that entire summer and when I was 15 working with him.
• 11:31
  Speaker B: So you've got real estate in your blood.
• 11:33
  Speaker A: Yes, helping with property management. My job is now obsolete, but at the time I spent most of my time I would go into it's 1200 units, but it's probably, I don't know, 200 different garden style buildings. Each one had their own trash room where everyone would throw their newspapers and magazines. So I spent the entire summer, 40 hours a week, collecting newspapers, magazines, and tying them up into bundles and taking them to the recycling. So I learned what my dad did at a very young age and had a great respect and appreciation, you know, for his effort and sacrifice.
• 12:11
  Speaker B: That's multiple buildings there, as I recall, right?
• 12:13
  Speaker A: Yes, it's garden style. So it's. You're talking probably 200 different buildings over hundreds of acres.
• 12:20
  Speaker B: It's a big property. I know. Backs up to Rock Creek park there.
• 12:24
  Speaker A: Yes. It's beautiful. Yeah.
• 12:26
  Speaker B: Yeah, I know it pretty well. Although I've never been inside, but I've seen them from the outside there. So you went to University of Maryland. What did you study at Maryland?
• 12:35
  Speaker A: So I started as an English major and later on I learned, you know, I probably should do something more business oriented. That kind of translates into, into a career that where there would be an immediate opportunity. I grew up very blue collar. I had everything I needed and more, tons of love. But it was drilled into me that education was important, and I was kind of steered towards a white collar situation, which I now am very grateful for. And so I moved into economics and I picked that up really quickly and really enjoyed that. It was genuinely interesting to me. It was a bit of math and calculus and whatnot, but for the most part, it was the behavioral studies, how markets respond.
• 13:24
  Speaker B: Any interesting influences while you're in college or high school or not?
• 13:27
  Speaker A: Honestly, more than anything, it was my English teachers at the community college that I think really made an impact. They taught me how to write very effectively and how to communicate, how to think, how to five pages of information and condense it into two paragraphs to get the point across. That was my biggest takeaway from the four years of undergrad. I would say that I still use, you know, evidence on the business front.
• 13:54
  Speaker B: That's awesome. You know, it's funny things that you don't. From standing, you know, 40,000ft. You don't think that an English teacher can make that much influence in your life, but it does, Right?
• 14:05
  Speaker A: Right. To this day, I still use that mindset that was instilled.
• 14:11
  Speaker B: So economics there and then where. What did you do? What was your first job then after college?
• 14:16
  Speaker A: So after college, I started building houses for Ryan Homes back in Frederick. And to be honest, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. But I was graduating in 2005, 6, where real estate was absolutely booming, and I went to the career fair, and half the career fair was real estate oriented in some fashion. And I had a friend who was already working for Ryan Homes building houses. And I was a wild, feral animal at that time that I knew I couldn't be confined in an office doing some sort of repetitive task. And that was an opportunity to move around and engage with different types of people throughout the day. And you watch the house go up. So very rewarding. And I found myself working there and loved it from day one.
• 15:06
  Speaker B: So then 2008 came along.
• 15:08
  Speaker A: Yes, yes. So when I started building houses, I had 40 homes under construction in Urbana, in Frederick, and nine months later I had one. So they laid pretty much all of us off and really shut the division down. But it was a massive blessing because it was so early in the collapse that things hadn't collapsed.
• 15:33
  Speaker B: Oh, really?
• 15:34
  Speaker A: So I was able to go back to the very same career fair a year later back at University of Maryland, and I. I met someone from Folger Pratt. And at that point, I knew that I wanted to be in construction. I was really enjoying it and knew that that's where I Belonged. And that set me apart massively from others at the career fair. And I had a year of experience on top.
• 15:56
  Speaker B: That's great.
• 15:56
  Speaker A: So I was able to start immediately with Folger Pratt. My first project, I was a superintendent on the Park Potomac.
• 16:03
  Speaker B: Oh, sure, yes.
• 16:04
  Speaker A: Those condo buildings. Folger Pratt was the developer and the builder. They self perform as well. So I dove right in and put the finishing touches on the first building and did all the homeowner turnover walks and whatnot.
• 16:17
  Speaker B: Nice. That must have been fun. So you were the construction super on the deck? Yes. Okay.
• 16:23
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 16:24
  Speaker B: So you learned the trades early on?
• 16:26
  Speaker A: Yes. My first five years at Bolger Pratt, I was a superintendent and then project manager on the general contracting front. And most of that five years was third party work. So I built the Silver Spring Transit Center.
• 16:40
  Speaker B: Oh, sure.
• 16:40
  Speaker A: As one of the project managers. And that was a technical behemoth. I really cut my teeth on the details with that structure and very complicated concrete work with a difficult owner, to say the least. It was Montgomery county and it was wmata. It was at that point everything had collapsed. I'm very grateful I had anything to do. But Folger Pratt was smart enough to get involved in government work, both local and federal government work. So I was on that job. And it was a long, hard three years, being really out of my element. I had mostly done residential before that, but this was essentially a concrete addition to an existing Metro station. It was about a $60 million project.
• 17:27
  Speaker B: Wasn't that controversial at one point?
• 17:29
  Speaker A: Extremely controversial. I thought so at all points. The design had a lot of issues and it was very bad press for folgercraft. Ultimately, I remember now, through quite a bit of sorting out, it became apparent that Folger Pratt was really not at fault for anything. It was. It was a design issue and. And honestly, that project is really what triggered my interest in moving over to the developer side of things. That's when I looked around and was like, I feel like I would be more effective over there. I still want to do construction. I want to be around it, but I would prefer to be on the development side. And those opportunities were absolutely not there. That was 2008-11. So I went to Georgetown at that time, did the master's program with a focus on finance. And that was perfect timing. Very lucky that when I finished that program, things were starting to pick back up. That was like 2011, 2012, and Folger Pratt allowed me to move over to the development side and we got a few projects done.
• 18:41
  Speaker B: That's Good. So what, what did you do on the development side for them?
• 18:45
  Speaker A: So I was, my title was a design and construction manager, but I was essentially execution, bringing the buildings to life, working with the architects and design team, coordinating with construction, everything self performed by Vulture Pratt. And they were all my prior co workers. So I already had a strong relationship there. And I worked very closely with Brig Bunker at the time, who's probably the most effective mentor I've ever had. And at that time, when I had no experience on the ownership side, he showed me how to do things and really took me under his wing and more than anything, led by example and taught me that you can be nice to everybody and still be very, very successful with a high level of integrity. And I was nice to people, naturally. But he's one of just the kindest people I've ever and also one of the most successful business people I've ever been around. And he really launched my career.
• 19:42
  Speaker B: Well, the culture at Vulture Pratt is very deep rooted, as you know.
• 19:47
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 19:47
  Speaker B: And I've interviewed two of the one, one of the founders, basically the founder's.
• 19:52
  Speaker A: Son and another relative, of course, Cameron and Bryant. Yes. All of the owners are the salt of the earth. Very high level of integrity, Very good people, very good business people. They understand that profit doesn't mean you can't take care of everyone involved. And I would absolutely do business with Folger Pratt without hesitation. I'm very grateful for my time there and I always recommend it as a great place to work.
• 20:23
  Speaker B: How many years were you there?
• 20:24
  Speaker A: I was there for 10 years total. Five on the construction side and five on the development project.
• 20:29
  Speaker B: That's great. So you've got a good balance of experience there then.
• 20:32
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 20:34
  Speaker B: So that basically sets you up to work almost anywhere at that point.
• 20:37
  Speaker A: Yes. And there was a lot of luck there. Just to find myself working at Folger Pratt was great enough, but that second five years, the way the market took off and to have been in a position to ride that wave with those guys really launched my career. I had so much work to do on both the office and residential front from an execution standpoint, and they really gave me a lot of rope.
• 21:03
  Speaker B: What was your favorite project when you worked there?
• 21:06
  Speaker A: I really enjoyed Press House. I left before we started construction, but the acquisition process, the design, where is that?
• 21:15
  Speaker B: Where is that property?
• 21:16
  Speaker A: That's in Union Market.
• 21:17
  Speaker B: Oh, sure, yeah.
• 21:18
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 21:20
  Speaker B: Adjacent to the retail there.
• 21:23
  Speaker A: Yes. Well, it had a historic component, so it's called Press House because there was like a hundred year old printing press building that's it has like a jagged monitor roof and it's a very attractive building. So we kind of used that for the brand and added a lot of density. So that was fun to work on. I also, I worked on the Choice Hotels headquarters in Rockville.
• 21:46
  Speaker B: Oh, sure.
• 21:47
  Speaker A: That was very exciting. Very intense.
• 21:49
  Speaker B: In pike and Rose.
• 21:51
  Speaker A: No, this is actually down before they.
• 21:54
  Speaker B: Moved to pike and Rose.
• 21:55
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 21:55
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 21:56
  Speaker A: Yep. So that was extremely intense because they were taking most of the building and they were attempting to do their tenant build out while we were finishing the base building with a different contractor. So it was a lot of cooks in the kitchen. A lot of risk being mitigated with a lease that size and building an office building like that. I learned a lot on that project. That was one of the more intensive situations I've ever been in.
• 22:26
  Speaker B: That's pretty cool. So you then moved on to Monuments. So tell me what transpired with that?
• 22:33
  Speaker A: Yeah. So Monument, I really. I chose to go to Monument just to do it. I had been at folger Pratt for 10 years, and I was having difficulty separating myself from who I am and what Folger Pratt is. And I really. I wanted to change my surroundings and experience a new culture, apply the skills I had gathered at Folger Pratt. A new environment, very different environment. This, you know, Folger Pratt is. It's a family business, but it's also been around for a long time. Of course, it's a much larger business than Monument. It's vertically integrated as well. It feels a bit corporate at times, in a good way. Whereas Monument. I was really in awe of Michael Darby, his charisma, his no fear relationship with risk. It's a very calculated risk taking that they do there. But he and Russ, I needed them in my life and they were awesome for those two years. It was a very flat situation where they let me do everything. I was getting the construction loan. I was negotiating with third party gcs. I had a lot to do with the design. And they, they like Folger Pratt. They gave me a lot of elbow room to. To make my own mistakes and learn from it, but at the same time, a ton of support. And I learned so much from, from both of those guys. I'm.
• 24:06
  Speaker B: I'm very grateful to work with Josh Olson too.
• 24:09
  Speaker A: Yes, Josh is brilliant. One of the hardest workers and smartest guys I've ever encountered. We keep in touch. I call them the triangle offense. Those three perfectly counter each other with their strengths and they're a very effective shot.
• 24:25
  Speaker B: But you were only there two years.
• 24:27
  Speaker A: I Was only there two years. Carmel reached out with an incredible opportunity. Back in 2018, they had just closed on two pieces of land, one in Alexandria, one in Union Market, and they needed someone local to execute. They were running things mostly out of New York at the time. So it was an opportunity for me to walk into what felt like a startup, but without the risk. We had an incredible platform and decades of experience, and I was in a position where things were very stable. And it was an incredible opportunity to hire my own team, create a culture, and grow the D.C. office. And here we are today, seven years later.
• 25:16
  Speaker B: So how has your approach to acquisitions and development changed from your early days to now, just out of curiosity?
• 25:24
  Speaker A: Well, I'd say it's evolved in accordance with my career trajectory, where I'm looking at everything through a construction lens, through the final product. I look at existing deals, like, what did it take for this building to get here? What can it be? Is there value hidden somewhere that can be unlocked? What can be built around it? Why would someone live here? And then on the development front, I'm thinking about the end user. I'm thinking about all those homeowner walkthroughs we build rental product. But all those homeowner walkthroughs I did at Folger Pratt for that condo building where people were talking about the orientation of the stove and what they like and don't like about the unit. I go into the project thinking about those things. And on the acquisitions front, from all my time in execution and construction, I'm thinking about feasibility and risk more than anything. I know that some of the projects I've done in the past where we really push the envelope on zoning constraints and exploiting height and various other things, then you have to build it, and it becomes very, very difficult to achieve the vision or bring to life what you said you would. So when I'm in early design phases and underwriting the deal and talking with land use attorneys and architects, I'm always thinking about, we have to perform on this. So I focus on the risks, but with the intention of navigating those risks. I call it the Eminem method, where in his movie where he's doing the final rap battle, and he knows that they're gonna make fun of him for this and that and this. And he starts his verse in the freestyle with, Yes, I live with my mom, yes, I'm a bone, and goes through all the things, and it kind of takes away the ammo of the opponent. That's how I look at development deals. It's like, where can we get hung up here? Are the utilities going to be a problem? What can we do to mitigate that risk?
• 27:37
  Speaker B: So I want you to turn back the page a little bit and I want to put three scenarios on the table for you. First, you have three sets of glasses. The first set of glasses are Folger Pratt glasses that you're putting on. So how would you approach something if you were with Folger Pratt? The second set are Monument classes and you're with Monument and in their thought process. And the third set being Carmel Partners. So let's start in order.
• 28:03
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 28:03
  Speaker B: Start with if you're looking at the same deal and you're with Folger Pratt, what are you thinking about?
• 28:09
  Speaker A: Well, Folger Pratt is usually in a GPLP situation where they need a third party equity source, but they're able to self perform. So what I would be doing is I would be looking at the opportunity for what value can be created here. What can we do? Working with the construction team to understand feasibility and cost and whatnot. And what is the potential upside? Then I'm working with their Joe Clauser. He's still there. Can we finance this? Who would be interested in this? What metrics do we have to hit?
• 28:44
  Speaker B: Pete Agdevani, I thought was doing that.
• 28:47
  Speaker A: Yes. Well, I think Joe is now the cfo. From what I understand, Pete's return has taken over for Pete. I'm not sure. Pete may still be involved, but even when I was there, Joe would be the person that I'd be interfacing with for, for the feasibility to find a partner essentially.
• 29:02
  Speaker B: For the listeners, I just want to interrupt you for a moment. Folger Pratt has as of the last, I think two years ago, sold their construction business.
• 29:10
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 29:11
  Speaker B: So now it's a different mindset that they had. But when you were there, they had. Construction was front and center on a lot of stuff.
• 29:17
  Speaker A: Correct. And on that front end I was mostly working with the pre construction on cost and feasibility schedule and whatnot. But that's really the art of the deal at that time is can we finance this deal? The market was kind of emerging from the Great Recession and no one, I don't think really had a firm grasp on what was and wasn't financeable. So it was all about, you know, can we get a partner on board for this and make it happen.
• 29:47
  Speaker B: Okay, now put your Monument glasses on.
• 29:51
  Speaker A: Monument is a similar approach, but it would be, they'd be far more comfortable with risk. They, they would, they, they would be willing to engage I hesitate to speak on behalf of monument, but this is my opinion.
• 30:06
  Speaker B: How you looked at it.
• 30:07
  Speaker A: How I looked at it, I. I was on the execution front. So for me, it was really about attention to detail and accurately assessing how this execution was going to unfold. What would be the real cost? What would be the schedule? Where are the risk elements? How do we address those risk elements? And then a lot of working closely with Russ Hines on his past experiences. Cause they've done so much at monuments and not a lot of time. At least when I was there, they had done something like 7 million square feet ground up in a short period of time. And they are very optimistic. Michael Darby is one of the more optimistic people I've ever.
• 30:54
  Speaker B: I interviewed Michael as well, of course.
• 30:56
  Speaker A: Yes. So I'm sure you've seen it and I'm less optimistic. So it was great for me to be around him, you know, and get that. That sense of what could be.
• 31:06
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 31:08
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 31:08
  Speaker B: So now you're at Carmel. Now, how's that view different from the other two?
• 31:13
  Speaker A: So Carmel, we have a large team with a lot of talent, and we leverage all of it. So it's extremely intense on the front end. We turn over every stone that could possibly be turned over and more and turn it back over and turn it a different way and keep looking at it and keep. Keep thinking about how can we improve this and how can we address the challenges and get everyone comfortable with this deal. Investment committee is a very intensive process with a lot of people at the table and a lot of people speaking up and voicing their concerns. And to address those concerns, it takes a very thorough effort from everyone involved. Asset management, construction, capital, finance. We have a design team in San Francisco and then our execution team. It's really. It takes a village. And we fire up the entire village every time. And it can be, you know, months and months of work and very long hours before you're even sitting at the investment committee table. And by then you have an answer for every question, for the most part. And if you don't, then it's all hands on deck until that question's answered and we have confidence.
• 32:35
  Speaker B: So let's turn the page back a little bit. Share with us the background of Carmel Partners and why it came to the D.C. area. I understand it was founded by Ron Zeff, who was a partner with Trammel Crow Residential in San Francisco. So he brought the TCR culture to the company when he started it, I assume. And I've interviewed several former TCR executives who have Spoken about it. And the company apparently operates in eight markets across the country and maybe talk a little bit more about that and then we'll get into some of your projects here locally if we can.
• 33:12
  Speaker A: Sure. So I can't speak much to Ron's past prior to Carmel and honestly, really, even prior to me joining Carmel, but I'll just say that he has created the culture, in my opinion, and it is extremely productive. We focus on the coastal gateway cities and Denver being the exception. The vertical integration is kind of the sauce, if I had to say that. We have a lot of experts that are very focused and very available. That's something. I don't know where that comes from exactly. Maybe it's Ron's work ethic becoming contagious and kind of trickling down throughout the company. But everyone I call gets back to me that day or answers the phone and makes me feel like whatever I need their help on is very important to them and they deliver. So the culture is one of the discipline, diligence and focus, I would say, all the way through. There's absolutely no dead weight in the company, which is something I've always been impressed with. And for DC, I'm not sure exactly we had been involved in DC prior to my joining the company in 2018. They had some value add deals, I think, in the prior cycle. But we like to be where there's job growth, high barriers to entry and a need for multifamily, generally urban housing. And D.C. certainly checks all those boxes.
• 34:50
  Speaker B: So how did they find you? Was it a headhunter or was it.
• 34:55
  Speaker A: It was an internal reach out. Someone I did not know personally, but they. Someone on the Carmel team contacted me and told me about the opportunity and. And to be honest, I kind of blew it off. Like I thought, this sounds like something that's not as exciting as I would be interested in. And then a different headhunter called me and started talking about a job. And it was everything that the Carmel person had previously said to me. And I said, is this Carmel Partners? And he said, how'd you know that? And I'm like, well, they already called me directly. And he's like, well, that means I can't get paid, but I know you and I know them and you need to call them back. Believe me, that is where you belong. Like, that place is awesome. And I trusted that guy from previous conversations. So I thought maybe I should entertain this. And then I met with, with Matt Feldman, Lee Block and Kim Hosoma and they won me over very, very quickly.
• 35:54
  Speaker B: Who are those Guys, so Kim's in.
• 35:56
  Speaker A: San Francisco and then Matt and Lee are in New York. So I was reporting to.
• 36:01
  Speaker B: Were you the first employee here in Washington area?
• 36:03
  Speaker A: We had an acquisitions guy at the time that found those first two deals and we had one construction guy. Both of those guys have moved on. So I have the longest tenure for the D.C. team. But at the time we were a team of three or four.
• 36:20
  Speaker B: How big is the DC team now?
• 36:22
  Speaker A: I believe we're around 40ish, including construction.
• 36:25
  Speaker B: Does that include property management?
• 36:27
  Speaker A: We don't do property management. We do asset management, but we go third party for property management.
• 36:32
  Speaker B: Okay, so this is your asset management team, your acquisitions team, and your development team.
• 36:36
  Speaker A: And construction? Yes, and construction, Yep.
• 36:39
  Speaker B: Okay, so you have four divisions basically in the company?
• 36:42
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, well, we have capital finance as well, and then your typical human resources.
• 36:47
  Speaker B: So you oversee all those locally?
• 36:50
  Speaker A: Technically just development investments, but I work very closely.
• 36:54
  Speaker B: Not construction?
• 36:55
  Speaker A: No, I work very, very closely with Peter Kramer. He's our head of construction. And we. We overlap a good bit. I mean, we're always collaborating, but he.
• 37:04
  Speaker B: Runs the construction business. Is an interesting business in that it can be very high risk. Lots of things can go wrong. And a lot of the developers I've interviewed, in fact, I would say less than half of the ones that I have are vertically. And pulled your practice out of the business for obvious. You know, they just felt that going long term to grow a portfolio, it's really hard to keep that under the same roof, you know, to do that.
• 37:31
  Speaker A: So it is difficult. And it's one of the things that most attracted me to Carmel Partners. I came up through construction. I still consider myself a builder at the end of the day. And the best way to manage that risk is to handle it as one team. And we build through with an owner mindset. Every person on our construction team understands what that means, and we are entirely aligned. We certainly bicker and disagree at times, but ultimately there's a higher purpose that works its way through the system and everyone understands that. And it's been very, very effective. We, our construction team is sitting at the design table right beside us from day one when we start doing a conceptual design. And as it evolves through schematic and design development, they are commenting constantly, running costs, looking for opportunities to build more efficiently, to build better, to manage risk. Some of these projects we do are extremely complicated. Where we're building up against metro tunnels or complicated utilities. And we always emphasize that risk. And construction never looks at those risks as opportunities to benefit them. In some Fashion, which you can run into with a third party GC. I've worked with some really great third party GCs, but there is inherently always a dynamic where it can become a zero sum game. And so certain situations. Right, like if cost is added, is it an owner cost or a GC cost? So we don't have to address those situations. At the end of the day, we're one team, fully aligned with an owner mindset.
• 39:17
  Speaker B: Talk about the typical financing structure you have in your deals. Is it typical or does it vary on every transaction? Just out of curiosity?
• 39:25
  Speaker A: It's fairly typical in that we use construction debt. We're a fund, we're a private real estate investment trust.
• 39:33
  Speaker B: Do you have a fundraising group internally?
• 39:35
  Speaker A: Internally, yes. We have an investor relations group that raises our funds. So we use the fund for all of the equity most of the time. And then we're using typical construction financing and then rolling into Fannie Freddie.
• 39:51
  Speaker B: So you're a private equity. You're a private firm, you're not.
• 39:54
  Speaker A: Yes, correct.
• 39:55
  Speaker B: Okay, so all your equity is high net worth individuals or institutional or a combination of both.
• 40:02
  Speaker A: We have various investor sources. Good Vita, nonprofit. It's across the board. Yeah.
• 40:10
  Speaker B: Okay, so you got your. Did you get an MBA or is it a master's in real estate?
• 40:15
  Speaker A: A master's in real estate finance from Georgetown.
• 40:17
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 40:18
  Speaker A: All right.
• 40:19
  Speaker B: So as far as capital raising, you learned what that's all about then there?
• 40:23
  Speaker A: Yes, I'm very often interfacing with investors that want to see the projects and I'm always happy to give tours and talk about why we're doing what we're doing and helping to understand why we feel like this is a good investment and that sort of thing. But I'm not involved in the capital raising capital.
• 40:45
  Speaker B: I figured that's your project guy. So talk about some projects. I have five listed in addition to the one we're sitting in, which we'll talk about at the end here. But talk about the Adair if you would.
• 41:00
  Speaker A: So I can kind of group the Adair, the Latitude and Avant together they are investment deals, acquisitions that were fully stabilized all. All in Northern Virginia, all have a light value add component where we can leverage our design and construction talent to improve the residents experience. And they were really plays on the Northern Virginia growth story and fairly new buildings that we were able to acquire at a significant discount to replacement costs.
• 41:40
  Speaker B: So value add deals or were they.
• 41:42
  Speaker A: More very light value adds spruce up the amenities, changed some things about the units, some of the finishes. But these buildings are only 8, 7 to 10 years old. So they're in good shape.
• 41:54
  Speaker B: They were all stabilized then when you bought them?
• 41:56
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 41:57
  Speaker B: Okay, interesting. So you're. Even though you're a development firm, you're looking to buy even income producing assets to build a portfolio.
• 42:05
  Speaker A: Absolutely. So that's interesting. We're constantly looking to acquire both development opportunities and stabilize investment deals, ideally with a value add component.
• 42:16
  Speaker B: Okay, talk a little bit about the annex on 12th because that had an interesting write up about it. So talk about that project, if you will.
• 42:24
  Speaker A: Sure. So this was actually my first acquisition where I led the acquisition for Carmel. And it was a GSA office building about 100 years old. And there was a GSA auction back in 2017. Douglas Development won that auction. They did a great job with conceptual design and the entitlement. So we purchased the property as soon as they finished navigating Commission of Fine Arts and the necessary entitlements inherited their conceptual design, took it all the way through design, changed a few things. And essentially it's about an 80,000 square foot office building, historic office with a deco aesthetic. And then we added another 500 ish units and a C shape around that existing building to create really one structure.
• 43:20
  Speaker B: Interesting.
• 43:21
  Speaker A: We honored the existing building with the new building's aesthetic.
• 43:24
  Speaker B: Was that a wood structure?
• 43:26
  Speaker A: Concrete. Entirely concrete. Oh, concrete, yes. Yep.
• 43:29
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 43:29
  Speaker A: It's about 560ish units with about 90 of those units in the historic building which has beautiful windows, 12 to 14 foot ceilings in some of the units. Complicated Swiss watch situation with the Metro tunnel nearby and some GSA utilities running beneath the site. So this is.
• 43:53
  Speaker B: Is this Southwest Washington?
• 43:54
  Speaker A: This is southwest. So this project's a very interesting location. It's about a block off the National Mall. So that in and of itself is separation from the market. There's very few residential buildings that close to the National Mall where you can walk out the front door and be there. Essentially it's about a six minute walk to the wharf. So you have all your.
• 44:14
  Speaker B: How close to l' Enfant Plaza?
• 44:16
  Speaker A: Are you there adjacent?
• 44:17
  Speaker B: Is there a chase?
• 44:19
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, that's on the back side of the building.
• 44:21
  Speaker B: Got it.
• 44:22
  Speaker A: And we're right beside the Smithsonian Metro. Got it. So.
• 44:25
  Speaker B: Got it.
• 44:26
  Speaker A: Incredible job by the execution and construction team. Great job by the interior designer Chipalamude. They kind of committed to the deco vibe of the.
• 44:35
  Speaker B: How long did it take you to develop this project?
• 44:38
  Speaker A: We acquired it in 2021 and we have fully delivered and we're in lease up now. So we. It was about three years, four Years of design and construction.
• 44:51
  Speaker B: So talk about the complications of that deal. It had to have been incredible.
• 44:56
  Speaker A: So this was a heavy lift from the design and construction team, the execution, development, execution team and construction, where we had these very large pipes that ran through the site that provided heating and cooling to the Smithsonian.
• 45:14
  Speaker B: So is that affiliated with. I know the federal government has a heating plant down that part of the city.
• 45:19
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 45:20
  Speaker B: And you know, yes, GSA was feeding.
• 45:22
  Speaker A: The heating plant those lines. So.
• 45:24
  Speaker B: Right, that's.
• 45:25
  Speaker A: We essentially had to replace those lines while doing excavation. So we had to demo a little bit of the existing building, put in those lines, get them fully up and running, and then proceed with construction. And they're actually built into the foundation of the building. And that's something where the vertical integration and the collaboration with construction gives us an opportunity to make a move like that. I think a lot of owners and developers would consider that to be too much risk. Whereas we have such a hands on, diligent, focused team that we did the GC internally. Yes, yes, we did all of that. So they. From day one, as soon as I started underwriting this deal, the construction team was right alongside me and the execution team figuring out, how can we do this?
• 46:14
  Speaker B: Who's your architect on this?
• 46:16
  Speaker A: So BKV did the concept for Douglas and then we used DCI out of Baltimore and they did a great job to do the construction documents and details. And they have a good bit of historic repurposing experience. So that was very helpful.
• 46:34
  Speaker B: It's 100 year old for this old building. Did you have detailed plans and stuff when you. When you acquired it?
• 46:40
  Speaker A: Not really. It's mostly hand drawn types of.
• 46:43
  Speaker B: Did you have to re. You know.
• 46:46
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 46:46
  Speaker B: Redraw them basically from.
• 46:48
  Speaker A: Yes, we did. Yes. We had to design essentially from scratch, do the best we could to assess the existing conditions, understand the hazardous materials, understand the nuances of connecting the new building to the existing building. A lot of technical stuff. There is a lot of terracotta in that building, which is not something that is commonly used today. Certainly from a structural perspective or on the interiors, like a lot of the block is in that building. So we had to navigate that. We had, we had healthy contingencies, but more than anything, we had a lot of sweat and a lot of eyes. Managing the risk and assessing what we could do here. And then in addition to that, aside from navigating the technical risk and nuances, we also really celebrated the history of that building. And there's a space on the top floor with monitors where they would. It Was called the cotton annex, where they would actually evaluate and grade the cotton. So we took that and made it into a very special amenity space. And then the rooftop is absolutely incredible. It faces the mall and looks point blank at the Washington monument. Wow. And it's absolutely beautiful. And that happens to be a corner of in southwest where the government buildings actually are very attractive. Like it. It has kind of like an eastern European Prague feel. When you look out over towards the national monument, which not a lot of those buildings. Do you hear everybody talking today about all this GA space and, sorry, GSA space and all these buildings that need to be repurposed, but many of them are just not in a great location or they're jammed in with a ton of other government buildings. And you really can't make a place. There's not a lot of character to celebrate. But this is an opportunity where the location was incredible. Adjacent to the mall with a short walk to the wharf. And we have some awesome views of the Potomac as well on the far side of the building.
• 48:54
  Speaker B: How high is the building?
• 48:57
  Speaker A: It's about 120ft. I think the existing building was something like 90.
• 49:03
  Speaker B: Nice. Very nice. Well, maybe we'll get a tour of that one too. More you talk about it, the more I'm fascinating.
• 49:11
  Speaker A: Always happy to take a big picture.
• 49:12
  Speaker B: That's an interesting one. So the next property on the list is the hail. Talk about that project.
• 49:17
  Speaker A: So the hail is in Noma. It's 500 units. Wow. That was a ground up concrete construction effort. And that one. So Noma. Most of the sites have no far or use restrictions. So it was a marketed opportunity. It was a nice clean rectangle. And so the, the sauce there was really, how can we maximize the density on this site without compromising the living experience? And it's another Swiss watch where we blew out the amenities. They're beautiful. RVD was the interior designer on that. I think it's personally on the best corner of Noma. It's kind of right smack in the middle of everything. Very close to the metro. Just across the street from the outdoor beer garden there. Yep. Eric Colbert was the architect. They did an excellent job on the concept design. It's a beautiful building. A lot of floor to ceiling glass. And then we felt like that renter base liked smaller units. So we did a lot of efficient layouts with a one bedroom studio focus where, you know, you don't. You don't have a ton of square footage, but the amenities are just so attractive and functional that we went after the renters that want to be in NOMA care about amenities, want to live in a modern building with floor to ceiling glass. And it's done really well.
• 50:49
  Speaker B: Are you full? Is it fully laced now or. Yes, that's great. When did you deliver that property?
• 50:54
  Speaker A: So that one, I think we broke ground in late 2020 and delivered it 2022. Late 22 into 23. That's crazy. Yeah.
• 51:04
  Speaker B: And again, construction, the whole everything.
• 51:07
  Speaker A: Yes, that was. So that project, I was still on the execution team for the most part. So I worked very closely with construction guys on that one. Awesome team on that project. Most of them are actually the wardman team today. And I hired all the consultants, great consultant team. And everything really fell into place on that one.
• 51:28
  Speaker B: So who manages both these? Do you have separate managers?
• 51:34
  Speaker A: Greystar manages all of our D.C. and Northern Virginia. Oh, they do, yes. Okay. Yep, they're doing a great job.
• 51:41
  Speaker B: That's good. That's good. So now let's get to Wardman, where we're sitting. So for listeners, we're sitting in the area which is the first of two large buildings here that are under underway and actually already delivered here. I talked to the property manager on the way in and he said that there are 26 residents already on the property, which is great news for you and your Lisa. So let's explain some of the background of the project and what problems you were solving for with the city, for the city and for residents when you took this project on.
• 52:18
  Speaker A: Sure. So the biggest problem was it was a bankrupt hotel. So it was a bankruptcy auction. It was a 1.1 million square feet in total Marriott Conference Hotel. It's a 9 to 12 acre site, depending on how you slice it. And the pandemic kind of put the nail in the coffin for that operation. So the lender organized, participated in a bankruptcy auction and we dove right in. I think it was about four months from when we started underwriting and evaluating the site until the auction actually occurred. And we felt very strongly we had a great chance to win the auction because the site was zoned entirely for multifamily residential rather so it was an existing hotel use, but it was buy right multifamily. It was fairly low density, like the FAR was two different zones, but it blended to somewhere, I think in the high threes from an FAR perspective, which is low density. But the site was so large that we knew we could build at least 900,000 square feet by right. And there was certainly a historic element. There's a lot of history here at Boardman Park. It used to. They used to have the inauguration inaugural ball here. Multiple presidents lives here. Langston Hughes worked as a busboy here. I think that was where busboys and poets originated. And it was seen as a very elevated kind of country experience, but in the middle of the city. So when I actually graduated from undergrad, I moved to Woodley Park. It was the first place I ever lived in D.C. about two blocks from the site. And I've lived and worked in D.C. for 20 years now. But everybody knows Woodley park is simply a wonderful place to live. It's leafy, it's residential. It's a beautiful place to walk around, great retail. It's adjacent to the park. It's. It's very elevated, so you have the potential for views. And so we honestly just embraced the zoning. We wanted to do it by right. We wanted to provide housing. We wanted to honor the site. And we worked closely with architects and on the historic front, trying to understand the HPRB element and how to respect the existing Boardman Tower, which is a historic building, that was the only. So we had to connect the structure to the Woodley, the existing apartment building on one side and Ward Bend Tower, the condo building on the other side. And we unleashed our team, the construction and development execution team, worked very closely with me to figure out what's the best thing to build here, what does this site want to be? And Shalom was very helpful in that front. And I really give him a lot of credit for this design. The way these buildings are laid out was very much his vision from day one.
• 55:26
  Speaker B: How did you come to Shalom?
• 55:29
  Speaker A: We talked to five or six different architects, and we asked them all for concepts, and we had some great concepts. But Shalom, you know, he's a D.C. guy. He really likes Wood Park. He used to live here, and he made an incredible effort in laying out the buildings in a way that pretty much every unit has an awesome view. And he pushed each building kind of towards the edges of the site without getting too close to the neighboring buildings. But in doing so, creating this beautiful private courtyard in between, that allows for an amazing exterior amenity experience, but also protects the views and makes it so that 360 degrees on both sides of both buildings, the views are spectacular.
• 56:23
  Speaker B: So from concept, you made the choice of the architect at that time? Yes, just from the concept.
• 56:31
  Speaker A: He was involved very, very early, just shortly after the auction took place.
• 56:37
  Speaker B: And then how did the design evolve? I mean, did you anticipate doing two large towers initially, or was that the.
• 56:44
  Speaker A: So we looked at several different schemes. We looked at keeping the original hotel tower. We spent a lot of time on that. How can we do adaptive reuse here, Add density around it. But that building was very inefficient from a multifamily perspective. The ceilings and the views were very compromised. It was not a large. It was like eight and a half feet or something like that. And there was a bulkhead on the end of every slab that where the concrete turned down, so your floor to ceiling windows would have been less than eight feet. And we just felt like that combined with the fact that the way the buildings were designed, every floor had this giant elevator lobby with no light and air, that made the layouts very inefficient for units. So ultimately we moved on to ground up as being the best plan. And then we looked at one, two, three, four different buildings. And ultimately, with Shalom's help, learned that two buildings was the way to do this. And given the nature of the site's layout and the size of the site and the garage and the grading, that we should build both buildings together as inherently one project. Two separately branded buildings with very different unit mixes and very different interior and exterior aesthetics with their own amenities, entirely separate, but for the incredible outdoor courtyard and then the fitness center and the spa and the interior pool, Those are shared amenities.
• 58:27
  Speaker B: So conceptualization is one thing, but financing is another. And I know when you analyze a development deal, because I've done many of them myself, you're going from the concept stage and looking at pre development costs. And sometimes it takes seven or eight years in pre development just to get to a point. How long from a point where you got the site, you got control, you were kind of reconfiguring it to the point where you were doing a hard construction budget that you felt pretty comfortable with what you're doing. How long did it take to get from the conceptual stage to the hard construction budget where you're actually costing the. The job that you would design at that point?
• 59:12
  Speaker A: It's a good question. And it's really not compartmentalized like that because it was four months of, let's call it, pursuit work leading up to the auction, and then something like 60 to 90 days until we actually had to close. And then we're going through entitlements with hprb working very intensely with the community to get those approvals. And so we were really working on the design and evolving the design and constantly pricing the design, analyzing risk, working on the schedule throughout that process.
• 59:55
  Speaker B: So it's iterative.
• 59:57
  Speaker A: Yes, exactly. And it was probably, let's see, so the auction was in July of 2021, just over four years ago. It's been about 24 months of, call it vertical construction. So it was probably two years until we really had all the ducks in a row and everything nailed down.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker B: And a lot of iterations then, is what you're saying?
• 1:00:23
  Speaker A: Yes, yes, quite a few. And demo alone took almost a year. I mean, it was over a million square feet. So we were learning throughout that process the nuances of the existing foundation, the existing garage and the terrain.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker B: How much underground work did you have to do? Quite a bit.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker A: Oh, a ton. It's pretty much every utility that serves the building is relatively new in some fashion. And there's three points of access to the site. There's Calvert, there's 24th street, and then there's Woodley. With. With utilities coming really from everywhere. We had to certainly respect and protect every building around us throughout the process. But at the end of the day it's just diligence. It was a very thorough, attentive effort from a large team and a lot of horsepower that went into this.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker B: So you have two existing buildings that are still on the site, is that correct?
• 1:01:19
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker B: So were they occupied during this whole process? Yes, they were.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker A: Yes, they remained fully occupied. I had a lot of interfacing with those residents and owners, a ton of meetings. They were generally very, very respectful and welcoming throughout. I mean, they, for the most part, almost entirely all understood that this was also for their benefit. I mean, we were taking a dark, obsolete, unattractive, giant hotel that was just there really slowly becoming blight. Not to mention the prior use was a conference center. So the amount of coming and going traffic was not something they were a fan of. So they were, they were very supportive and understanding that this was best for the community throughout the process.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker B: So how did you balance resort level amenities with efficiency and long term build durability for the owners and residents alike?
• 1:02:24
  Speaker A: So more than anything, I would say applying lessons learned. Carmel has done a lot of large projects in various different markets and we manage our assets with a great deal of attention. So we're constantly learning from things we done in the past, what works, what isn't working, what could we have done better? And we applied a ton of that expertise. Woodman was our, something like our seventh and eighth DC ground up construction project in the last seven years. So we had pretty much the entire team had worked on one of the previous buildings and understood the Carmel standard and what we wanted to do. So it was that The Carmel platform combined with what does the site want to be? Right, so 9 to 12 acres gives you a lot of opportunity to be creative. But we thought about the neighborhood, the immediate neighborhood, the people around us. We didn't want to get too close to the Woodman Tower, we didn't want to get too close to the Woodley, but we wanted to create light and air on both sides. So massaging that give and take kind of place the buildings and then we go from there and we say, what do we have to work with? What are the best views? We work closely with Shalom to get to the unit mix that we feel like the market wants that will respond to how many? Three bedrooms, two bedrooms, what size should they be? And then the amenities, we always embrace amenities. We think they're very valuable in the residents, really appreciate, appreciate that experience. And when you have this much ground to work with, when the density, you know, is a sub 4 far, we wanted to take advantage of that and get market separation. And so it was very important that we had not only a great deal of interior amenities, but the exterior amenities where we really get separation. I think that the interior courtyard is something like two and a half, three acres between the two buildings. And that is all programmed very thoughtfully with like a playground, a large resort style pool, a lot of walking paths, a ton of landscaping, trees, flowers, benches, grills and other amenities. And then the same with the rooftops because the views are so incredible here with the site being so elevated over most of the city, I wanted to make sure that both buildings had just an awesome rooftop experience. And I think that's certainly come to fruition. You'll see when we take a walk.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker B: That's great. What sustainability or ESG decisions at Boardman park go beyond optics and truly affect long term value.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker A: So I think just maximizing the buy right density and providing as much housing as possible we can is the most important thing. But also to be able to do that in this area adjacent to the park, adjacent to Metro, you're one stop from Dupont and Woodley park in and of itself has a lot to walk around and experience. So that that check for me checks the biggest ESG boxes. And then in addition to that, it's a, it's a lead silver building, both of them. And then we recycled something like 90% of the existing structure. The million square feet that we demoed, we were able to reuse a lot of that for backfill and other recycling programs.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker B: Do you have any green building kind of standards within the buildings? You said it's silver leaked silver. So are you recycling water or doing solar or anything like that at all? How do you curiosity.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker A: We have to achieve lead silver. We check a ton of boxes to do that. Like we manage the amount of water, the efficiency of the H VAC systems, a big one. It's all VRF systems throughout both buildings. I'm not sure how much solar is on the roof. It's at least solar ready. We have a ton of EV charging stations in the garage as well. And then the amount of outdoor space that we we have a ton of like stormwater retailers retention green roof. The glazing is a very efficient type of glazing that is also safe for birds. People in the city are very concerned about bird safety and the reflection of the glass. So all those boxes are checked as well.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker B: I know we're going to walk around this a little later, but for the listeners, Stan, what other features would you like to highlight about the project that would interest the listeners? And also what makes this project unique, would you say from other projects you worked on and other ones that you know, you're aware of in the city? Sure.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker A: I think the project really speaks for itself and it's something you have to experience. You have to come and see it because the way the site is oriented and some of this is very intentional. You really don't get a sense of how large this project is until you're standing smack in the middle of it like 360 degrees all the way around it. You can only experience a portion of the building it's nestled in very thoughtfully and respectfully to the neighborhood. So it is something you have to experience because it is mostly unique in that you can have a high end resort experience, but you're smack in the middle of the city.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker B: Right.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker A: And to be able to do that is is something very special in and of itself. But to do it here in Woodley park in Washington D.C. and to have these views, it's a very, very special project. And when you look at the cost of ownership today and interest rates, we're in a spot where, where it's an incredible value to rent at Woodman park right now. The living experience here is unsurpassed. In Washington D.C. there's nothing like this. Or in Northern Virginia or Maryland, there's no project of this scale where you have finishes at this level. The rooftop, the view, the floor to ceiling glass everywhere, the amount of amount amenities inside and out, let alone woven into the urban fabric adjacent to Rock Creek Park.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker B: So a couple things. One, this is all residential. I assume you have no commercial aspects.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker A: Correct. Retail is not allowed by zoning.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker B: No retail. Okay. And I haven't seen the amenities yet, but I'm eager to see what they look like. I will say when I walked on the site today, it felt very similar and feeling to City Ridge. I don't know if you've been there yet, Richard Lo project.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker B: But it just has that same kind of ambiance to it.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker A: City Ridge is a very well done project. So it's awesome to have that mix of uses, different type of living experience in that it's up along Wisconsin. Similar in terms of it's not an overly dense area where they're delivering density and an urban living experience in what is a relatively open space along Wisconsin there and so close to American University. And I think they did a great job. The difference is, I think just the outdoor amenities, the courtyard, the four pools, the indoor pool at Wardman, and we have slightly larger units as well. So we, when we decide our unit mix and our aesthetic, we look at every project in the submarket and every project that we consider a competitor. And this, this project being so special, we looked at just the highest end living experiences throughout the entire city. And we considered all of those comps, including city rich. So we went out of our way to differentiate however we could. Including. Including unit mix.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker B: Yeah. Low Enterprises project next to the Hilton. Washington Hilton.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker A: The Hepburn.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker B: Yes. The Hepburn.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker B: Is before this project, I think was the top end of the city, if I'm not mistaken.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker A: I would agree with that. They have a similar vantage point with the views.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker B: Right.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker A: And they did a great job with. With the design of that building. The floor to ceiling glass, that's actually a curtain wall, which would be rarely seen nowadays, but that's a true curtain wall. And I think they also did a great job of embracing the existing historic building with the. With the Hilton's curved shape and the way they embraced that. They did a great job. But that project, certainly they're only about 200 units, but they are getting some of the highest rents in the city. So a little bit further south, closer to Dupont, but probably a similar renter dynamic. I'm guessing that we see here we just have the outdoor experience.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker B: Interestingly, I interviewed Matt Pestron from Post Brothers, and as you may know, they're developing a big project at JBG's Universal north and South buildings.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker B: Which I think they want to be equivalent at least to this as far as amenities and quality.
• 1:11:47
  Speaker A: Yes. From what I understand, Post Brothers has done some really Great stuff in Philadelphia. I know Matt. I've spoken with him a few times. He's certainly a visionary. They're very comfortable with, with risk and very effective developers, from what I understand. And we looked at that project very intensely. It's a great site. I definitely wish them success in bringing that to life. We need more, more housing. And that's a great opportunity to, to repurpose existing buildings in a great location which most. Like I said, most of the office repositions in town are going to be tough just of the nature of where and how they're located.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker B: You've done it.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker A: That one's special.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker B: You know what they're like.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker B: You did one.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.
• 1:12:29
  Speaker B: So talk about timing of lease up and your, your forecast and what your thinking is here as far as getting it fully stabilized. So we are three years. What do you think?
• 1:12:42
  Speaker A: It's tough to say with the way DCs, you know, rolling out right now with, with the federal government's decision making and some of the impact, some is positive. There's a return to office effort that I think is going to push leasing everywhere. It's too early to have a reason on timing right now, but we're marketing, we're, we're leasing units. People are very, very happy. We have a very high success rate in terms of if, when people tour it and they're interested, they're, they're probably going to lease. I mean, you see it, it's. If you're going to, if you see it online and you, you look at the website and look at the gallery and you're interested enough to come out here and see it, you're not going to get here and be like, nah, this isn't for me. You know, it speaks for itself. And I think we're going to have a very swift lease up.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker B: That's great. And so go over the statistics of the property now, if you would, with unit size and the whole amenities and all that, if you can real quick.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker A: Sure. So it's two buildings. They combine for 867 units.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker B: That's big.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker A: We have studios up to very large, three bedrooms. Some of the penthouse floor plans, they're as large as over 1800 square feet. The average unit size is closer between 1,000 and 1,200.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker B: That's still big between the two bedrooms.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker A: Yeah, nowadays that, that's large. But the type of renter or would be owner in Woodley park for this sort of project, they like more elbow room. They like, they like space in larger units. That's what we learned throughout the acquisition and diligence process. So we feel like we've responded to that appropriately and we've differentiated the buildings with the unit mix and the unit sizes as well. So Aerie has more three bedrooms and a bit larger units, whereas Zephyr has studios instead of three bedrooms. And I'm going to say smaller, but only smaller than Airy, still fairly large.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker B: Different rudder profile for each building. Then we'll see.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker A: I don't want to speculate. I think that there likely will be. If you have. If you're an empty nester that likes to host your family, you're probably going to be looking at the larger units. But Airy also with the larger units is area. It also has a very different aesthetic and I think both are attractive, but they are very different. And so it's going to be subjective situation. Some people like our office. We're constantly talking about which one we like more and it's very, very split down the middle as to who prefers what. But there's the fitness center that they both share with the indoor pool. Then there's the outdoor courtyard pool. Each building has a rooftop pool, so there's four pools. Four pools? Four pools. One is. The indoor pool is actually a three lane Olympic style kind of lap pool. And there's a large hot tub there beside the pool. And a sauna, which we have not done in D.C. yet, but there's a very, very nice infrared sauna in there as well. The courtyard has fire pits and benches. The playground I mentioned, there's two dog parks as well. I think the total amenities square footage is somewhere around depending on how you calculate the outdoor. It's like 50, 55,000, something like that.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker B: It's huge.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker B: Interestingly, something at this, almost this quality level and maybe in the finishes, certainly close to it is a project that Tishkin Spire built down near the, you know, near Navy Yard, called the Crossings. Have you seen that project?
• 1:16:31
  Speaker A: I have.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker B: You toured that?
• 1:16:33
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker B: What did you think of that?
• 1:16:35
  Speaker A: Very nice project. The Ballpark has done really well. It's one of those rare instances where rents have grown along with supply. Not extreme growth, given the supply. But to deliver that many units in a decade or two and still see rents climb really speaks to the quality, demand, but also the quality of all of the developers that have participated. The quality, the retail and. And that building is certainly exceptional.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker B: It's an amazing building, actually. I, I was. The amount of detail and finishes that were. I mean, the stairs, the, even the tile work and things like that. I Don't know if your buildings have.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker A: That kind of finish level, but absolutely. Yes. You. You'll. You'll see when we take a walk that the common areas and the units, all the amenities, excellent attention to detail as well as execution. Right. There's the vision and the design intent, but there's also the guys in the field that have to meet that standard and perform, and I think we have here.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker B: All right, let's shift to the market now a little bit.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker A: Sure.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker B: Generally, what is the most misunderstood about the D.C. multifamily market in your opinion right now?
• 1:17:50
  Speaker A: Right now, personally, I think that people are underestimating the corporate quality of the city in and of itself. There's so much talk around the current administration's policies and doge and crime and so on and so forth. But at the end of the day, we're a large city, a coastal gateway city, the nation's capital. I've lived here for, like I said, 20 years. Most of my people in my circle have never left D.C. and have never thought about leaving D.C. if they do, maybe they move a little bit out into the suburbs, but it's a wonderful place to live and a very, very productive city. So there's a lot of noise right now that I think is just a point in time and a blip on the radar that is. It's causing a lot of people to misunderstand how nice of a city.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker B: City this is. Well, not just that the people, it's. You've got politics, which is one part of it, but the business people here are very productive.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker B: It's, you know, real estate environment is among the friendliest in the nation. You go to New York, you go to Los Angeles, you go to San Francisco.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker B: Much more, much more challenging environment from a real estate development and ownership standpoint.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. Washington, D.C. and most of the jurisdictions in the immediate vicinity throughout Maryland and Virginia have been fairly accommodating to they understand how much demand there is for housing and that things need to get built. And in particular, recently, D.C. has made some very, very smart decisions to spur growth, and there's a lot of people ready to take advantage of that. And I think you're going to see a significant investment over the next decade or so into D.C. despite, you know, little to no activity in terms of projects getting started. Recently, we're down to very little inventory throughout D.C. maryland and Virginia of new product. And within a year, it's going to be near zero. And that's when I think people are going to realize just how much demand there is for Washington D.C. and the quality of life that comes with it.
• 1:20:15
  Speaker B: When scanning sub markets, what three signals make you lean in and what two tell you to walk away?
• 1:20:26
  Speaker A: So we discussed it earlier, but start with who wants to live here? Why do they want to live here? Should more people live here? How easy is it to provide housing? And that works in two ways. Can we do it and how many other people are going to do it? What's the supply situation? Right. And we use data science a lot. We have a data science department in San Francisco that is wizardry. They are very intense, talented group that understand how to evaluate data on all fronts, supply, demand.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker B: Well, how tight are the sub markets in your opinion in Washington? I mean, you know, in Washington, D.C. itself, you could probably have 15 or 20 sub markets. Possibly.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker B: In multifamily, Montgomery county could have 10 or 15 submarkets. Northern Virginia probably has 30.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker A: Or more. Yes.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker B: If you go out beyond the airport.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker A: Well, historically, the DC sub markets in terms of rent growth and demand have generally tracked together. You're going to have a little bit of outsized growth in different pockets. But for the most part, not to oversimplify it, but if Bethesda rents are growing, then Tyson's rents are growing and DC rents are growing. Rarely do you see where one submarket has significant growth relative to another.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker B: Well, you're looking at class A markets now.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker B: You start looking at the affordable markets, it's a whole different kettle of fish.
• 1:22:09
  Speaker A: Yes, we tend to do market rate, and that's where I certainly spend most of my time evaluating that. But the short answer is we rely on data science. Given that the markets do generally track together, certainly with new product at market rate, the devil is really in the weeds, deep in the weeds. And that's where data science comes in to understand behavioral trends.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker B: Give me an example of an insight that they've given you from San Francisco that you wouldn't have picked up on the ground here. Just curious.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker A: Sure. So one thing with beads, how a particular sub market responds in terms of demand for housing to the job market outside of that submarket. So, for example, let's just take. We'll just take Bethesda. Where do those people work and what does it mean if all the jobs are being created or we have reason to believe that the job growth is happening in Northern Virginia, what does that mean for Bethesda? Or if it's happening in Gaithersburg, what does that mean for Bethesda? And how do the different sub markets react to behavior outside of that sub Market, essentially, is something that I've never. I've certainly thought about it, and I've been here for 20 years, so I'm tuned in to the way people behave and how that plays out, but not in the form of data like this, where it's a very, very technical, technical endeavor, where they have a read on.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker B: That sort of thing. So what drove this project to do that many units at once? So let's just say you could have phased it a little longer if you wanted to.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker B: Putting 820 some units on a job at the same time, that's a, that's a dice roll.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker B: And especially luxury units where your overall average is probably in the fours, maybe even fives per square foot, your rents.
• 1:24:14
  Speaker A: Right. So more than anything, it's just from an efficiency standpoint of you're already firing up the construction. I understand you're already digging the hole. And to really, to lay it out in the most effective manner, we needed the whole thing here at once. And we believe in Washington, D.C. and we believe the demand is there. So it was somewhat of an easy decision when we looked at what it would take to build one building and wait for that second one, and what it would mean for the nuances of the shared amenities and the course of courtyard and then one building being built while the other one is already leased up. And some headaches there with construction, traffic in and out and loading and things like that. It just made so much more sense to capture the efficiency of making it one coherent effort.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker B: Interesting. Yeah. And I would assume the financing, you have it all comprehensively done and finance once as opposed to having to phase the financing piece too, which is another aspect, Correct?
• 1:25:25
  Speaker A: Yes. It's multiple banks participating, but one single.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker B: Construction for the entire project and one equity bucket that you're dipping into as well, I assume.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker A: Yes. Correct. Yes.
• 1:25:39
  Speaker B: So you don't have any divided ownership or any structures separate. Everything's under one LLC here.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker A: @ the end of the day, I think you could say yes. There's certainly some, some nuances around that, just given the structure of the way the site lays out and the different A and T lots. And we also, we put ourselves in a position where we could sell the building separately and they could absolutely function with separate ownership. Yeah. So there's. There's some nuances. Right.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker B: Okay. Well, I went back down to the, to this. Now I'm going to go back out again to the market. So if you're out looking at deals today, where are you focusing and why geographically in the region?
• 1:26:24
  Speaker A: So it's very important to us that we cover the entire region. We want to know every deal that gets done, we want to understand it. We want to know where it traded and why.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker B: How do you define the region? I mean would. Would Loudoun county be part of the region for you?
• 1:26:40
  Speaker A: Yes. Yes, it.
• 1:26:41
  Speaker B: Would Anne Arundel county be part of the region for you?
• 1:26:44
  Speaker A: We would look at it, certainly we would track it, but unlikely to.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker B: Would Stafford County?
• 1:26:50
  Speaker A: That's about where the line is. That's about where the line is.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker B: And Frederick certainly would be for you.
• 1:26:55
  Speaker A: Because we went there, we would look at Frederick. But we try to stay as close to the major metro as possible. I understand the closer to D.C. the, the more attention we're gonna pay to it. But it's really demand. Quality of life and job growth is what we're looking at. But we're opportunistic. There's nothing that we're an immediate pass on for the most part. We're gonna understand if there's an opportunity there for us to do what we do. And we don't take anything lightly. I mean even like we have yet to do anything in Maryland in my seven years. But I've underwritten a thousand different Maryland deals a thousand different ways and we will continue to do that because we don't want to miss an opportunity. We think our data science department gives us an angle where we see things differently.
• 1:27:48
  Speaker B: Would you see yourself teaming up with a mixed use developer like Federal for instance, for a big major project where you come together with them, they do the retail and you do do the residential or somebody like them? Let's just say absolutely.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker A: We discuss that sort of thing all the time. Nothing has fallen into place. But we would absolutely be willing or.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker B: Even with Richard Lake, his scale.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker A: Certainly, certainly. We're talking to everybody all the time. And a good example is our gantry project in Union Market. We acquired that, it was something like five or six different sites and CAR built Signal House, the office building there immediately across the street. And that was not a co development situation. We did not participate in that investment, they did not participate in ours. But we very much consider them partners at the same time. We created a place together. We're very happy to have a true mix of uses in the area. And I think both of us benefited from that.
• 1:28:47
  Speaker B: They just sold the building. I understand recently Signal House traded. I did not hear that, I believe in the last 60 to 90 days. Yeah, interesting. I don't remember who bought it, but they did sell it. So for young professionals listening, if they Want to sit in on your. In your chair 10 to 15 years from now? What would you say they master in the next 24 months? Would you say.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker A: Would say they need to accept right now that there are no shortcuts. It is only hard work. It is only learning from the people around you. You have to have a mindset where you really want to take care of the people around you. Below you, beside you, above you. Partners, neighbors, investors, consultants, whoever it is, you need to be aware that their success is also important. As important as yours. And if you're in a place where you don't want the people around you to succeed, you are in the wrong place. And that's when you should make a change. Other than that, it's just keep your head down, work hard, soak up everything you can from anything around you. And that's another thing I think is. Is not talked about enough is how much you can learn from people that don't have as much experience as you. Or you may consider them a competitor. You can learn from everyone, and the best way to learn is from doing the work.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker B: Well, I'm gathering and it goes back and this is why I do this, why I ask about background and about personal. Your father taught you service orientation. I sense I may be wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he sensed because he taught you as a young person to serve others and be very cognizant of what other people need. Because that's what you did at your first job, even as an intern, you were doing things that. Or service orientation. And I have a blog that I'm writing weekly now, and this is a big part of it. It's called Ethical Leadership. So this is part of the theme of what I'm trying to get across is you've got to serve. That's the key thing, is to have that mindset.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker A: Yes, both my parents, certainly my father, he was, is. He's retired, but he was an extremely hard worker and he had a very, very high bar for himself to take care of people. And what he did was he fixed anything broken in the unit. He was not necessarily. He wasn't like a building engineer. He was mostly in the units, replacing faucets, washer dryers, whatever needed to be done. And it was never. And I know this because I worked with him for two summers. Everybody loved him at Parkside. Everybody knew his name and he knew their names, and he did not settle. He did everything right and all the way through. And the same thing with my mom. She did daycare in our Home. And it was like six, eight kids at one point, most of them under the age of five, which we did not have a large house. And there were also.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker B: Where are you? In the stack there?
• 1:32:26
  Speaker A: So I'm the oldest.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker B: I'm the oldest.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker A: I was eight of three. Now I have a. So I grew up with two sisters. I now have. My dad has a daughter. So I have three sisters now, but. And my grandparents as well. But my mom, she served the community. It was all people that lived in the fairly immediate vicinity, which would drop their kids off every day. And in addition to getting us ready for school and taking care of us, she took care of those kids like they were her own. And both of them, they set all the example I need. They didn't need to tell me anything.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker B: What did your grandparents do? What stepped them off?
• 1:33:09
  Speaker A: So my grandparents actually lived one set. My dad's parents actually lived on our street, so they were like one minute from our house. And my grandma was a lunch lady at my elementary school, and she stayed. She worked until the last grandkid came through the lunch line as a kindergartner so that she could serve lunch to every one of us.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker B: Oh, that's great.
• 1:33:33
  Speaker A: And my grandfather, her husband grew up as a farmer on a farm in Frederick and was a truck driver for most of his career. And everybody worked so hard. My dad was one of six. My mom was one of five. Her parents, they were in Mount Airy, so 10, 15 minutes away. Spent a lot of time with them. My grandfather was. He was in the army, and then he became an electrical engineer and was ultimately essentially a rocket scientist with no college education, just from fascination with electronics and engineering. Cool. But the work ethic was there, and like I said, they didn't need to tell me anything. I saw it. And if they did tell me anything, it was I love you and I'm here for you.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker B: That's great. So what are your priorities among family, work and giving back?
• 1:34:26
  Speaker A: Well, family's always first. That's how I was raised. That's how I try to live my life.
• 1:34:32
  Speaker B: You have a family?
• 1:34:34
  Speaker A: I have one daughter and a wife, and there's nothing more important to me. Nothing ever will be more important to me than those two girls.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker B: How old's your daughter?
• 1:34:42
  Speaker A: She's five.
• 1:34:43
  Speaker B: Oh, that's great.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker A: She just started kindergarten. That's been exciting. There's absolutely nothing more important than family. But at the same time, work I consider part of family in the sense of I'm doing it for my family. And my wife understands that as Kid a extremely supportive. And she also has an incredible career. She owns her own business and works very hard, and I support her back. Just what does she do? It's all one thing she does, like large corporate events, private equity investor meetings. She designs and executes those meetings here.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker B: In the D.C. area. Mostly.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker A: Mostly on the west coast, but really across the United States, Florida, California.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker B: So she travels a lot?
• 1:35:24
  Speaker A: Yes, she travels a good bit as needed. But we're well supported by our extended family. Our parents are very helpful.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker B: Nice.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker A: Yeah. So it's. I consider it all one thing. Family, work and giving back. People talk about balance, but it's really unity, I would say.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker B: Do you have any passions for the community and doing anything at all, nonprofit or anything like that at all?
• 1:35:47
  Speaker A: No, I should do more of that, but right now, I mean, I'm in the prime of my career. I'm empty. And you're busy on anything I can do for Carmel Partners right now. That's where my focus is, and I intend to completely empty the tank. And that's when I'll focus on giving back. And that will certainly start with my immediate community and the people around me.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker B: That's great. So if you were to place a billboard for millions to see on the Capitol Beltway, what would it say?
• 1:36:15
  Speaker A: Ronnie, when things get grim, be the reaper.
• 1:36:22
  Speaker B: Okay, I like that. Where did that come from?
• 1:36:28
  Speaker A: That was something I heard Patrick Mahomes say he was told by his coach, Andy Reid, when they were in a very, very tough spot in the. In the playoffs against the Bills. They needed a drive, very little time. They had to make things happen, and that's their mindset, and it's worked out for them. And I've never forgotten that quote since I heard it.
• 1:36:55
  Speaker B: Interesting. That's cool. That's cool. Anything else you'd like to say, Ronnie, before we wrap it up?
• 1:37:04
  Speaker A: No, I'll just say thank you to you. I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you to everyone who's worked on this project out here at Warburton park area and Zephyr, the community, the Carmel team, the subcontractors, the consultants. It's been a spectacular experience the last four years, and it's so rewarding to see this have come along.
• 1:37:29
  Speaker B: Well, it's not just this project, but the other one downtown, all the projects.
• 1:37:35
  Speaker A: The last seven years, which has been about 20 years of work crammed into seven years. I have nothing but gratitude for the Carmel team and Washington D.C. and all our consultants, subcontractors, and our residents as well.
• 1:37:48
  Speaker B: Well, Ronnie, thank you very much. And this has been a very interesting interview, and I appreciate it very much. Thank you. Thank.
• 1:38:03
  Speaker A: You.