Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.279: Finding the BEST matches for skin and makeup using NakedPoppy’s algorithm ft. Jaleh Bisharat

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E.279: Finding the BEST matches for skin and makeup using NakedPoppy’s algorithm ft. Jaleh Bisharat · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
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• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, welcome back to Skin Care Anarchy.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Today's guest is pretty awesome because this brand is, in my opinion, I think they're really revolutionizing the way we look at our routines, whether that's skincare or makeup or just the things that we really need in our collections.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to the founder of Naked Poppy, Jale Basharat.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, Jale.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited that you're here.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Ecta.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't be more thrilled to be here.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's such an honor to host, you know, amazing entrepreneurs such as yourself because, you know, you're really kind of on the front line, front lines with like the cutting-edge way of thinking about this idea of personalization, you know.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I really want to dive into your journey and you know, your background and uh what led to the you know, the idea of naked poppy and you know, what was the whole journey like for you?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, um so um I was at Amazon in the early days in 1999 and 2000, um, and really developed my love of e-commerce there.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: And for many years after that, I had this career in technology.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but a very important personal incident occurred in 2007.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: It was around Christmas.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: I stepped into the shower.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'd had a clear mammogram four months earlier.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I stepped into the shower, I felt that lump that nobody wants to feel.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then of course I went in and had it checked, and I got that call that nobody wants to get.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it was breast cancer.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was super scary.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, obviously I've recovered.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's 14 years later, 15 years later almost.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was also this deeply personal awakening to the questionable chemicals that we put in and on our body.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: I want to ask you, Julie, because this is something that I've actually, you know, and I think it's it's a cool thing to have people aware of.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I often ask, you know, patients that are undergoing um any kind of you know cancer therapy, you know, like just how it feels um in terms of like when you get that diagnosis and then you start thinking about the journey of you know going down this path of just finding, you know, cure, right?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: For what you have.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: How does how does that feel?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like how did what did you go through, like some of the things?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know the obvious is like shock and you know, sadness, but actually, and it was also kind of feeling ripped off.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm that person that's always eating organic, I always work out, I always get eight hours of sleep.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a little bit of a why me?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like I, you know, I felt like I had done everything that I could control, um, quote, in the right way.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: Also, I'm not that person, I will tell you right now, that needed to get breast cancer to be grateful for the life I had.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I grew up in Iran um and we lost everything after the Iranian revolution.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: So I already felt like I didn't need to get breast cancer to develop some perspective about being grateful, you know, for and blessed with what I do have.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, so in a way, you know, sort of the breast cancer really just felt like why me.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it did motivate me to want to do something with my life that really um, you know, helped other people not to reduce the number of people that would ever face that situation in whatever small way that I could.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so even though I was working at these other tech companies like Open Table and you know, Upwork, it was always in the back of my mind that I cared deeply about environmental toxins.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I've always loved beauty products.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I am that, you know, like I joke that when Whole Foods started their beauty aisle, I was the first one to shop there.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you don't want to buy your beauty products in the grocery store, at least I didn't.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: So um I noticed that brands were getting cleaner and cleaner over time, and I started, I it this idea got a hold of me that boy, what if there could be a website which became Naked Poppy that would take the overwhelm out of shopping for clean beauty because there's two ways in which people get overwhelmed.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I promise you, overwhelm is the number one word that people use.
• 5:08
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: So first is that you need a PhD in chemistry to read labels.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's not obvious to your average consumer, this is not food.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's really hard to read labels.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: You need someone to do that for you.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, you probably know this better than anyone because you can geek out on that stuff, but most people can't.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know, you know, honestly, one of my, you know, one of my goals eventually, hopefully I will get your you know to this point is to create something where you can start writing layman terms for some of these um chemical uh chemical annotations.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh a lot of them are organic chemistry, but I you really can uh break it down to where the consumer can understand it.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I know what you mean.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: I totally agree with you, and I I would love that data come, you know.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh labels are required to be what's called inky, which is the sort of official scientific um term.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: And some things that sound scary are actually perfectly harmless, and vice versa can be true as well.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: So um, and then the second thing, you know, really the big one though, so there's that, you know, make sure that what we offer is clean.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: But the big one is how do you choose?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Especially if you're if you're switching up your routine.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when we ask people, when we ask our customers, we talk, you know, I talk to customers all the time, how do you feel when you walk into a big beauty brand store?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can imagine which one, Sephora, let's say.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: The number one word I get back is overwhelmed.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's like scary, like for people who are not like, you know, just the fanatics, right?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like I you and me probably could walk into a you know a beauty store and we're gonna be like going crazy, like, oh my gosh, I look at this lipstick and stuff, but it's scary for a lot of people.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know what's crazy is that adult the people who who made me aware of that were were guys, guys.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, How do you guys deal with this?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is like traumatic, like going into what exactly I had one woman, I'll never forget her.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: She didn't say overall, she said panic attack.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like that was the word that she uses to describe when she walks that.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: And some of it is there's just so much stuff, 95% of which is irrelevant to you.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if your skin tone is ebony, you don't need to see all these pale foundations and all these lipsticks designed for you know, porcelain skin people, and vice versa.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so we set out to solve that problem as well, and that's why um I wanted to reimagine the shopping experience for beauty.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've always worked in technology.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: So in my mind, the I and I knew why.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Why is makeup one of the last categories that people want to shop for online?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's because it's so hard to figure out what's gonna work.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, a big thing I wanted to actually bring this up is that with makeup, I feel like there's a culture around um, you know, shopping for makeup too, you know, at this point, because let's be honest, we have a million brands for skincare, but for makeup, you know, add a few more zeros because, you know, at the end of the day, there's now it's like it went from like there were no choices to like, oh my goodness, like now it's like I don't even want to have a choice because now I don't know what to choose.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: I want to choose 15 products.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a whole culture as well.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I really that's a huge reason why I love what you're doing with Naked Poppy, because you're also like this kind of like technology, I think, retrains consumer habits that are like, you know what I mean?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like really at the the heart of things like sustainability and making sure we're not over purchasing or you know, whatever, like all those little factors, right?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I really want to dive into that, you know, throughout the interview, but like um, you know, my my question really like first and foremost is geared towards the technology part because I want to know what goes behind making something so cool and like the algorithm and like putting that together.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: So um I love that question, and I 100% agree with you that um I'm hoping that we're moving towards a mentality that less is more.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that we have one fragile planet.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, we want makeup and beauty to be joyful, but we want to we want to partake in a responsible way and not just stockpile and have stuff sit in our drawers that we don't use, um, but to truly find the stuff that we do use and can truly enjoy.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's that's better for ourselves and for the planet.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, you know, when we take into account what we offer, we don't just look at um ingredients that are better for your health, but we also take into account what you know what accumulates in the water supply.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And even if it's considered perfectly safe for you, um, you know, if it if it accumulates forever, we won't we won't take a product like that.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, in terms of the algorithm, so here's what we did.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: We actually sat down for countless hours with makeup artists.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: We started with makeup ecta because it's actually harder than skincare.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's more difficult.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and makeup artists also of many different um, you know, um ethnicities because the rules are different for darker skinned women than lighter skinned women, et cetera.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and sat there with products and with models and said, what would you choose and why?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um and pretty much um decided to or or managed to extract their thought patterns.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a makeup artist will say, I don't know, I just look at her and I can tell that she needs this color lipstick.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you say, well, why?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like what if she were over 50?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: What if she had a darker skin under, you know, a more cool undertone?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: What if her, and pretty soon even they realize, you know what, I do have heuristics here.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: There is a way that I'm sort of pattern matching what's going to look good on who and why.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, what if what if her eyelids are hooded versus monolith or whatever?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um but so so anyway, so it was this team of like data scientists, makeup artists.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, we have our chemists to screen for clean, um, and and engineer that put together this algorithm.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: We actually just got our patent on it.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then over time, you know, it's really started to evolve.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: And we actually see it, and I'm using the makeup example, we have a skincare specialist, we work the same way with skincare.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's evolved to the point where we also learn from you.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we see it as, you know, if you think about it, no makeup artists, like if you walk up to a makeup artist and say, here's who I am, I'm vegan, you know, I'm in my 50s, you know, I'm this, that, and the other.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sensitive to essential oils, whatever.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, my undertone is cool and my skin tone is warm, whatever.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's really, really hard for even a human being to scan every product in the store and go, oh, here's what's going to be perfect for you.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: She's always going to forget something or not remember something.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: That is where machine learning and people actually need to get better together.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what we codified.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, the third piece of this puzzle though is you.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: So um we can see your behaviors.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you return something, we put that back in your beauty profile.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: All we ask is that you tell us why.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be specific, you know, too orange, to this, to that, whatever, too light, too dark.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we feed it back into the algorithm, and then it updates itself to get better and better over time.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: It also will update itself to get better at people like you, not just you.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it's interesting to me because you know, you're taking qualitative data and making it quantitative, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so anytime you have that, there's for me, and I, you know, from a statistical standpoint, like it's very hard for me to understand that and how that data is regulated or I guess controlled, or you know what I mean?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like where where is that?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, that no, that's a good question.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: So here's here's maybe the best way to explain it.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: So as you take your naked poppy beauty assessment, we have a beauty assessment.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: It takes, you know, three to five minutes, um, especially if you go deep into skincare.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and from that assessment, we um take into account more than 50 attributes about you.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um part of the assessment is we take your photo, which we then destroy, but we keep track of things like face shape and even the contrast between your hair, skin, and eyes, because that affects what makeup you wear as well.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um anyway, we we we take into account more than 50 attributes for each person, and then every product in our store is scored for all of those attributes.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: So there's actually like over a hundred million permutations for how the recommendations can land.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, 112 million to be precise, because each of us can be very different.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, early on, um, our rules were much simpler.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, it's really evolved, ECTA.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, um women with the same skin tone and undertone and hair color and eye color often got the same recommendation, but we started to like get really deep into color theory and go deeper and deeper with makeup artists, only to discover that so many more variables affect what's going to be the best um recommendations for you.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you an example.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: If you are going gray, which you know happens once in a lifetime usually, but your recommendations need to change, the rules change.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um your makeup should get more subtle in color.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: If you like to wear bronzers, they should give way to peach and pink blushes.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: As an I'm just giving you an example.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, if you and I have the same skin tone and undertone, but there's a great contrast between my hair and eyes, whereas yours are more subtle, we would get different recommendations.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I have a question then, because I know that the website, the way it works is that you know, you do the quiz and it's a wonderful, it's very, very good.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I really like the thorough, um, thoroughness of it.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the questions that are asked, and I can totally see how um those questions are really working to um paint the picture, you know, and how that's all being put together, all of that initial data that you get from someone just you know initially coming onto the website.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: But Mike, I think for me, the most interesting aspect of this is the adaptability of automated models for um, you know, whether like like automated models for you know skincare or you know, just anything, right?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because it will uh consumers are always changing, whether that's because of trends or it's because of you know aging differences they're experiencing.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe a woman started using um you know naked poppies services when she was like right like she was pre-menopausal, right?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then she hits menopause.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: So how does that work when you know consumers start going through changes or they start noticing like you know positive or negative changes for them to come back to the site and then report that and then see if that algorithm can like, you know what I mean, readjust and give them new matches?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's an excellent question.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: You could move from a lighter from a um dry climate to a humid climate or vice versa.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you could get pregnant.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we built Naked Poppy to be with you for a lifetime, and that's why we have a beauty profile for you.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, you come back, you tweak your answers on the assessment.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: For example, if you're now pregnant, um, you just say I'm pregnant now.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or if you're going gray, you change your hair color to going gray.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're going gray, um it's a different recommendation if you're going gray starting as a redhead versus a brunette versus you know jet black hair or what have you.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and actually you even indicate where in the process you are slightly gray, very whatever.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm I'm using the gray-haired example because it's so um such a stark physical change for most people.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: But same thing with menopause.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yes, that's that's so you can go back, go back, you can change, you know, um kind of like uh account for the changes that you're experiencing, and then that will go into the system and your your profile gets updated, you know, with all of that then.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or if we make, you know, you know, if we make a mistake on on a shade, as I said, you know, we will um record exactly what was wrong with it so that your entire recommendation set is improved.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, I have a question about um in terms of the brands that you choose to, you know, include um in in you know, making a routine for somebody because you have a very, I feel like, you know, um, I really want to commend you on how selective you've been, because you know, just my experience of going through the system, taking the quiz and then being matched.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is it's astonishing to me how perfectly it's matching me, right?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I I was very blown away by that, especially with makeup, because with skincare, I can see it being an easier process, like you said, because you know, you put down what are your big complaints, right?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, hyperpigmentation or but with makeup, it's a million different, you know, you you could have women that are looking for a million different types of things in their everyday makeup look.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to brand curation, what is your process?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're gonna have, like I'm imagining, like if you have five uh moisturizers that you recommend for like winter months for super dry skin, how do you pick, you know what I mean, the ability for those moisturizers to really work for people?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how is that what is that curation process like?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's an excellent question and something we've put a lot of uh effort and investment into.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, on the makeup side, well, it's actually the same for both.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll tell you what it is.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Usually the new brands come from either a customer or our skincare specialist who's who's you know deep, deep, deep into she knows all the brands, or makeup artists, same thing.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the very first step, and to be honest, we learned this uh kind of the hard way, is to have our um beauty chemist screen the ingredients.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I when I say we learned this the hard way, is I can't tell you how many times I've been excited about a brand only to have her say it doesn't meet our standard.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so and we don't want to get anyone spun up until she so what she does is she goes ingredient by ingredient, product by product, for every brand we carried before we put it on our shelf.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: We do have some brands where we take some products and not others.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I can give you examples of stuff if you're interested of how she does it.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, that's step one.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: We can come back to that if you're interested in how she screens.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then step two is we have, you know, we have them send us samples, we try everything and we always look for is this filling a hole with what we need to offer?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: If it's redundant, honestly, you know, um, if there's no reason to recommend this over that, it's there's just no reason to complicate things for ourselves or consumers.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So what we do is we look for things that really fill a hole.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, whether it be an ingredient hole, like you said, if someone has a skincare concern, or you know, whether it be, you know, in our makeup line, honestly, like we had a hole with liquid liner, that's why we created one of our own.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um Naked Poppy, by the way, has formulated just a couple of SKUs where we see where we see white space.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, and so, and you know, we're not that company that says, let's have 10 of everything.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: We'd rather actually really debate it and say this, these are the best, maybe two or three.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because there can be consumer preference, but let's just recommend the best one.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's what we need though.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm I'm really like the reason I'm like diving into this because I want everyone listening to understand that this is, you know, in my opinion, I think the days of the big beauty stores are, you know, gradually fading away.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the next step is obviously what you've created here because you know it's a level of personalization that is taking a consumer from not only like shopping for products and impulsively buying them, it's taking them away from that and putting them into the quality aspect of what they're buying.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and really like make almost like slowing down a consumer's like racing mind a little bit and saying, you know what, what do you really need?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So when they see their results, you know, and what naked poverty match them up with, they're gonna be like, oh my gosh, yeah, okay.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I, you know, I don't need the eight bronzers I have in my you know makeup drawer.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need all stuff, like you know, because let's be honest, when you're when you're going to use these things, you don't remember half the time which bronzer worked, and you know, exactly, exactly.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I will explain one thing, which is that an increasing number of people actually this increases actually the older people get.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, an increasing number don't enjoy going to the store.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: They enjoy having stuff, but they don't enjoy shopping for it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, remember back, you know, I can remember anyway, you know, when I was younger, I kind of found it entertaining to shop.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have time anymore.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I prefer actually to get things quickly as long as they're the right things.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, there's this new concept I read about somewhere and I thought, ah, this describes it person perfectly.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's called compressed e-commerce, which means that, you know, I want something, I want to be able to get it quickly and be done with it and move on with my life, whether it's my kids' soccer game or whether it's my job or whether it's my, you know, if I'm ECTA, you maybe we're patients or whatever.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: Just get me what I need and have it be accurate.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: We do allow free returns, though, because we own our mistakes, um, and we get good data from returns.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we very, very much encourage what you said.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Less is more.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, but that that's actually why we're not a subscription service, also.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: You choose what you want.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mind.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was literally about to say that because, you know, for me, the way I look at Naked Poppy is like, you know, the um more evolved version of, you know, beauty uh subscription boxes.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because I, I'm not gonna lie to you, Jolia, I had such a hard time with when I was into like the whole I had like four or five different subscriptions going, right?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Of beauty boxes, and I kid you not, every single one of them, 70% of the products I have never used.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like never.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just I they were pretty to look at, you know what I mean?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: But like I just I think back and I'm like the amount of wasted product is just it's crazy to me.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like the you know, also with that, the beauty box era is leaving, and that's all coming back to this theory and this this way of thinking about how consumers are evolving, you know.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like people don't want the BS anymore.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of it is because of, you know, in COVID, we were all inside.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want clutter in our homes, you know what I mean?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're thinking about things so differently now.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm actually really happy to see people shift, you know, in this direction that you you're going in and what naked poppy is doing.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think this is this is just more, I think, um it's not only better for you know, all the things we talked about, like the environment and all that, but it's better for you because there's a level of gratification that comes with, oh my gosh, okay, finally I have a nude lipstick that I can use every day.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to think about it anymore.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I know exactly where to go to get it again.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like I totally agree.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, to me, beauty boxes are like fast fashion.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, they give you this short-term consumption, you feel like you have stuff.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I agree with you, by the way.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's because people have been indoors and are getting tired of clutter.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: I also think we're much, much more conscious that we need to live a sustainable lifestyle if we're gonna leave a planet to our children and grandchildren.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, also cultures are evolving because you know, now I a lot of people are meeting in different ways.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I know growing up in the 90s, we everybody went to the club.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: So girls all had the crazy eyeshadows and the you know what I mean?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, items.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just because that was like, you know, going out makeup.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a different kind of you know, social lifestyle.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And COVID has definitely changed all of that.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that aspect has really made everybody look at what they're using under a microscope because now it's about, you know, well, what do I really actually need versus one?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because do I really need like 15 red lipsticks?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, because where am I gonna wear them?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how many meetings can I have in one day?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, exactly.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: I also think COVID has kind of created a a stillness in this in our lives that caused a lot of people to reevaluate material things versus you know, versus caring for our planet.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, makeup is meant to be joyful.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: So of course enjoy it, but do I really need to be overwhelmed, you know, with as you say, 30 lipstick?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna wear one of them anyway.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I think our I think we slowed down enough, like you said, to consider what really matters to us.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: That yeah, whoever thought COVID would give us a gift, but it, but I think that was it.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, I agree with you, I totally agree with you.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I also, you know, um, I'm not even like this is so interesting that it's happening um the way like this conversation is happening right now, because like literally last night I was sitting down and I was like, you know, making my own um just notes and stuff for skincare anarchy.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I was sitting there and contemplating about what, like trying to think back as a child, what to me was the most addictive part of beauty, right?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like what was it that drew me in so hard?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, like, no joke, it was this idea or this feeling you would get when you would find that little thing that you loved so much, a personal secret.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was like your little thing, it was your own thing.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like it wasn't the generic for me, at least, it was like that.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, oh, look what I discovered, and this really works for me, and it's my own little thing, you know.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: So finding that personalization was the goal all along, you know, even in that different kind of market, like growing up.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: But now it's just it's like you're you're getting that satisfaction in a much more efficient and just more pinpointed way, you know what I mean?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: You no longer go to Walgreens and stand there for eight hours testing all the nudes, you know what I mean?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can you you don't have to do that kind of stuff, like it's just it's different, it's very different.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and let's not even I mean, remind ourselves that people actually don't want to spend a ton of time in the store anymore.
• 28:43
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so the ability to shop from your couch has become more important than ever, unfortunately, because of COVID.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's it, I mean, do you really want to test 30 30 shades of noon anyway at CVS during a pandemic?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Also, it's just such a it's been such a big shift in beauty.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I really find it to be so interesting from the in the business standpoint.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, you're really ahead of the game.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you guys are ahead of your time in a way because, you know, the amount of precision, like I said, and the and the you know, accuracy of your matching and and the way that everything works with the site, it's it's really brilliant.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I I think there's a lot of people out there, you know, that could benefit from just going to one place and getting exactly what they need because, you know, it's it's not just society and culture, it's our attention spans are shortening, you know, day by day.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, look at all the people on TikTok that are mindlessly scrolling all the time.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it's just people people don't have time anymore, the patients anymore, right?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I find it to be very interesting.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I I want to shift a little bit and I want to talk about um, you know, in terms of now, a consumer goes onto your website, goes through the whole process, gets their products, loves them, goes back to the website, reports back, you know, any changes and whatever, but they want to add on to their routine, you know, and and and I say that because at the end of the day, we all love buying something new.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's you know, it's part of it, right?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, how does that work with Naked Poppy?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I want to go back onto the website because I just want to browse and I want to, you know, add some more things to my uh collection that, you know, maybe the algorithm didn't recommend initially.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked because this was a big uh turning point as well.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um this happened about 18 months ago, where we used to just show you your perfect picks, your perfect matches.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: People said exactly what you just said.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what we do actually show you now is we rate every single product in the store just for you.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: So you can, you know, uh go beyond your perfect picks and click on.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm getting literal now, but this will illustrate the point.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: Click on see more matches for my lips or see more matches for my eyes.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you will see that every single of the almost 600 products we carry is either a perfect match, a great match, a good match, an okay match, or not recommended if it's really far off.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so you might be like, you know what, I want to try this great match over here or this good match over here.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so that actually it's just a much more efficient way to shop because everything is sorted, you know, in order.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't have to waste time going beyond.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: You might be a person who says, I don't want to go beyond great match.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how it works.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's number one.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: Number two, of course, we are always bringing on new brands selectively, much more about curation than just lots of brands, but we are bringing them on.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we are um setting up new for you areas now that will actually go live in the next two weeks so that you'll be able to log back in and see what's new for you and how it's rated.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, I like that a lot because you're still giving people, you know, a lot of flexibility and a lot of you know um options to browse and and still you can still have that experience, you know.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: You just don't have to like kill yourself trying to find that perfect foundation shade.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's exactly right.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know what it is actually?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: A lot, especially people that use Naked Poppy, they're busy, they don't want to go to the store and get overwhelmed, they get on, but they're realizing they're kind of enjoying looking at these beauty products.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we want to allow that to unfold if she wants to spend or he, you know, yeah, more than time than expected.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: But you're looking at it in a curated way where you're seeing all your ratings.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: So you're literally not wasting time on the not recommended, and something might not be recommended because it's got an ingredient you can't use.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: So why waste time on it?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Or right?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you're fact-checking so many different like layers, and that's so amazing to me because it's like, you know, for me, uh, you know, this whole clean beauty movement that's taken place um has kind of for me as a consumer snuck up on me.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna lie to you.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: I one I felt like I I woke up one day and and you know, everyone was reformulating, everyone was coming up with new options, and and I'm not, you know, that's a wonderful thing.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we should do a lot more of that, but um it really did sneak up on some of us.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um, like you said, you know, the overwhelming aspect of it uh really, really comes through when you talk about clean beauty because people, I from what I've gathered, they they associate clean beauty with a select few products that are really, really just great and they they work and they're gonna give you results that you would want to get from like clinical grade skincare or that you would want to get, you know, um what you expect, right?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: When you when you start doing anything um in terms of aesthetics.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's like, you know, because like I I don't know how people differentiate between clean beauty.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's really what I'm trying to get at.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, it's actually you raise a really important point because I mean, I think marketing people are smart enough to call their products clean, not always necessarily.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Let me put it this way, there are different shades of clean.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna lie, right?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we were actually looking at a brand that I was really excited about that was accepted into clean, one of the clean app programs.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna name it the brand or the program, but you can guess.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um and, you know, our scientists said it's got it's got preservatives that aren't don't don't meet our standards.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, that's just not possible.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: But she showed me.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: She said, first of all, on their own website, I don't see the ingredient list.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: That right there is a red flag.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: That everyone should always put up their ingredients.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: But when I went to the retailer's website, here it is.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: Here's the ingredient that we cannot approve.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: So um what I'm saying, Ecta, is two things.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: One, there are different levels of clean.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then there's also, you know, we think that we we look at it like seed to make a bag and even beyond.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then what happens when you discard it, right?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, there are ingredients that are fine for human health, but they accumulate in the environment.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: We just say no, our four pillars are it's gotta be better for you, better for the environment, ethically made and cruelty-free.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I really like that.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: See, you know, this is another point that I really want to actually um kind of discuss with you because you know, with all of the changes, uh, there have been a lot more launches in the beauty space, you know, there's a lot more brands, as I'm sure you know better than all of us.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, one of the questions I get from new entrepreneurs that are just now, you know, launching their skincare liner is like, how do I get into a retail store?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: How do I, you know, and I'm like, you know, honestly, I don't know.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the wrong person to ask, you know, honestly, about that.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: But from what what I've learned, it's a hit or miss, or it has been for a long time.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: But now when I see services, you know, that are that are coming up and what you're doing here with Naked Poppy, I feel like it also gives entrepreneurs a lot more breathing room as well, because now you can go and find um people who will carry your brand and they align with the same things that you do.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that's very yeah, yeah.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the first one is the great blossoming of brands um is both wonderful and very confusing for consumers, um, which is why actually retailers, responsible retailers play a really important role.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we, you know, as I told you before, we don't bring on a brand just to have it because it's just adds to the overwhelm.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have a new brand, you really do need to fill a new white space, not just be a celebrity and say, I'm gonna, you know, white label my mascara tube.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you need to really have an offering that's differentiated.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing, I know, you know, I'll just tell you this really quickly.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we're a little bit different.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And because we're algorithm-based, it's not expensive to like be with naked poppy.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Our data scientist, our makeup artist, our skincare specialist will score the products, put it in the algorithm, and let it go.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to spend any money with, you know what I mean?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: But to get into most retailers, you know, you I'm sure you've heard this.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: It can be two to three years to break even.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because you have to, you're responsible for sell-through.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: The retailer can put it there, and if it's not moving, they'll just take you off the shelf.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not a not a good approach.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: So brand founders also need to be, you know, they need to be clear about what white space are they truly filling, what problem are they truly solving that isn't yet solved.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then to be realistic and have their eyes open when they do go in with retailers, they need to not only get in but make sure they sell through.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: We're a little bit different in that case because we're agnostic.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: You can't pay us any money to feature your product.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: We, you know, it's it's not what we do.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I and that that's very important.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I know that um there's a lot of things that go with, you know, a retailer carrying a brand because you know, I I know a few years ago there were a lot of complaints about how much money was really get, you know, getting taken out of each sale, you know, and would go to sale partner versus, you know, it the entrepreneur making the money they deserve to be making.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, there's a lot of things there that I don't want to really dive into right now, but uh it's just very interesting to me, you know, like how you know platforms like Naked Poppy are really changing the way entrepreneurs are now um choosing to make their lines more accessible to people, you know.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I find that to be very, very, very interesting.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, one one really quick thing about that.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry to interject, but that that's that um, you know, um I talk to them, so I say this to them, and this might interest you as well or your listeners.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when somebody comes, most brands, you know, it's like I go to XYZ website to buy XYZ brand, right?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: When they come to Naked Poppy, they're coming for the recommendation, not for a specific brand.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: So um sales on Naked Poppy are actually incremental.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: They're not cannibalizing their own website or something.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: You see what you understand what I'm saying?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's like either you're in the wreck and you get, or if you're not, we'll put some, you know, we'll put the best we have into the slot for you.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so that's also a different kind of concept.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the you know, we're not the only platform that does personalization.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: We think we do it uh in a unique way, but certainly there are other wonderful websites that do the same.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: That is a different, different kind of relationship for a brand and one that brings them incremental sales.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, I it makes sense, and I think you know, growth, study growth is always better than, you know, um just I guess one launch or one skew wonders.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a lot better to be a brand that's seeing you know growth over time because I think that's where you're gonna sustain that and you're gonna, you know, you're you're gonna build a base.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think all of what you're doing is helping, you know, these smaller brands, the indie brands that have amazing products to expand their consumer base.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes you really do have to tell somebody, hey, listen, you might not know about this brand, but this product is genuinely perfect for you.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's perfect for your things you're describing because people don't know.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, indie brands, I I have such a soft spot in my heart for them because they really some of them are truly extraordinary and they just don't ever get discovered, or you know what I mean?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like the situation and same analogy as like the starving artist, right?
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you said that because it's so true, and I'm not sure I had constructed it that way in my mind, but what you say is very true.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: Can't tell you like to how many customers will say, I had never heard of this brand.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: And this is now my go-to, yeah, exactly, or my go-to foundation.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that is a much more loyal customer, actually, than someone who saw you know, saw an influencer, tout it, you know, paid partnership, it came and went, and they tried, you know what I mean?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't even right for them to begin with.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, yeah, very true what you just said.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's definitely something to think about.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, Jolly, I want to thank you so much for coming onto the show.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited to be sharing um naked poppy with our audience, you guys listening.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's really, really a great service, and you will be shocked by how accurate it is, I promise you.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because I, you know, when I first tried it, I was like, I'm very curious how this is gonna really come together, like when I actually put on my makeup and you know, and it was just it's just amazing.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very, very, you know, just so impressed by what you've done here.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's remarkable.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, Ecta.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've loved spending this time with you.
• 41:53
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• 42:14
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• 42:15
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• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Jolly.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 42:22
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