Latest / Podcast on the Brink / POTB 526: Zach Osterman on a whirlwind spring for IU basketball

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POTB 526: Zach Osterman on a whirlwind spring for IU basketball · Podcast on the Brink

0:16
Speaker 1: Welcome back to a new episode of Podcast on the Brink.
0:20
Speaker 1: It's Thursday, May one. It's a busy end of March,
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Speaker 1: all of April for IU basketball. To help us discuss
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Speaker 1: the month, it was, Zach Austererman and the indie star
0:35
Speaker 1: Good Friend of the show, Good Friend of Mine, back
0:38
Speaker 1: on Podcast on the Brink this week. Before we get
0:40
Speaker 1: to Zach wanted to take a moment to let you
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Speaker 1: know that this episode of Podcast on the Brink it's
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Speaker 1: brought to you by Visit Bloomington. As always really appreciate
0:48
Speaker 1: our friends at Visit Bloomington. Just because the basketball season
0:51
Speaker 1: is over doesn't mean the fun stops. Spring is the
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Speaker 1: perfect time to explore everything Bloomington.
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Speaker 2: Has to offer.
0:57
Speaker 1: Hike the trails at Griffey Lake, natures the refuel with
1:01
Speaker 1: local flavors on tap at Upland Brewing Company. Don't forget
1:04
Speaker 1: about the many music festivals coming to Bloomington this spring.
1:07
Speaker 1: Whether you're into outdoor ventures, food, or just relaxing in
1:10
Speaker 1: a vibrant college town, Visit Bloomington's got you covered. Start
1:15
Speaker 1: planning your Spring getaway now at visit Bloomington dot com.
1:20
Speaker 1: Zach is battling a sinus infection, but he has been
1:25
Speaker 1: gracious enough to join us on this episode of Podcasts
1:29
Speaker 1: on the Brink. First of all, Zach non IU related
1:33
Speaker 1: wanted to take a moment to congratulate you on the
1:36
Speaker 1: Jim O'Connell Award that you received last month at the
1:41
Speaker 1: USBWA luncheon down at the Final four. I know that
1:45
Speaker 1: was something maybe that you're not going to talk about
1:48
Speaker 1: too much publicly on your own podcast, but did want
1:50
Speaker 1: to take a moment here on on Podcasts on the
1:53
Speaker 1: Brink as someone who has known you for a long time.
1:57
Speaker 1: You know, at one point you uh carried a potted
2:01
Speaker 1: plant in your front seat of your car, wrote about
2:04
Speaker 1: that friendside the hall. So you've come a long way,
2:07
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to take a moment to congratulate
2:09
Speaker 1: you on that well deserved I know a lot of
2:12
Speaker 1: IU fans are feel very lucky to have you covering
2:15
Speaker 1: the team, So I just wanted to say that before
2:17
Speaker 1: we started this week's episode.
2:19
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, friend. I really appreciate that. I you know,
2:23
Speaker 3: I mean it, It meant a lot. I'm still confident
2:27
Speaker 3: there are people that were more deserving that I was.
2:31
Speaker 3: But you know, you and I have both been hammering
2:36
Speaker 3: away this long time. I think you remember the USBWA
2:38
Speaker 3: before I was. I'm pretty sure you told me you
2:40
Speaker 3: showed me out of sign up, so you know where
2:46
Speaker 3: we go back to many a Moses Abraham recruiting update.
2:51
Speaker 3: So I appreciate that. Thank you.
2:53
Speaker 2: And the Gee Mark Michelle contract.
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Speaker 3: Remember that that was all investigation, one of one of
2:59
Speaker 3: the most in depth investigations I've ever been a part of.
3:03
Speaker 1: So I have had you on the show since the
3:06
Speaker 1: hiring of Darren Derees. You've obviously had a chance to
3:10
Speaker 1: sit down with them, talk with them a little bit.
3:11
Speaker 1: You've covered the portal, everything that's gone on. You're at
3:15
Speaker 1: the final four kind of a whirlwind. What six weeks
3:18
Speaker 1: for you here? Just what was your reaction to kind
3:23
Speaker 1: of where Indiana landed in this coaching search and what
3:26
Speaker 1: we've seen so far. Just in terms of the the
3:29
Speaker 1: roster that they've assembled, the coaching staff, it seems like
3:32
Speaker 1: things are really starting to come into place and you
3:34
Speaker 1: can see a clear plan in place in Bloomington for
3:37
Speaker 1: this first roster for Debrees.
3:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of the coach
3:44
Speaker 3: you know a lot of I mean, I know I
3:46
Speaker 3: was to the people I know I was focused for
3:48
Speaker 3: a long time. I've been McCollum. You know. Frankly, I
3:54
Speaker 3: think I'm not saying Degrees will be a better coach
3:58
Speaker 3: than McCollum long term. Debris certainly has a better resume,
4:02
Speaker 3: you know. I think I, in my own sort of
4:06
Speaker 3: evaluation of like the field as it were, Debrees felt
4:11
Speaker 3: like the kind of person that you pushed to one
4:12
Speaker 3: side because he just he'd just taken the West Virginia job.
4:19
Speaker 3: You know, at that time he was he was doing
4:21
Speaker 3: fairly well in it. I think, I mean, we were
4:23
Speaker 3: all broadly speaking, surprise West Virginia didn't make the NCAA tournament.
4:29
Speaker 3: And you know, you think, you know, if you want
4:31
Speaker 3: to maybe a comparison point, you think about Dusty May.
4:35
Speaker 3: And there were a lot of people who said, you know,
4:38
Speaker 3: Dusty May wouldn't leave Michigan after one year because coaches
4:42
Speaker 3: don't do that very often, and that the only real
4:45
Speaker 3: sort of justification for believing it might happen was his
4:48
Speaker 3: background with Indiana. And of course you know that the
4:51
Speaker 3: fact that he was a e alum, So you know,
4:55
Speaker 3: I wasn't I didn't necessarily like push a pin into
4:59
Speaker 3: Darren Devrees is the absolute home run higher. I just
5:02
Speaker 3: kind of looked at him and thought, coaches don't leave
5:05
Speaker 3: jobs after a year very often. Now, there are a
5:09
Speaker 3: variety of reasons why it makes sense when you just
5:12
Speaker 3: sort of sit and think about it, you know, sort
5:14
Speaker 3: of in a cold and analytical way, why he would
5:17
Speaker 3: do that. But I think that you know, certainly from
5:22
Speaker 3: the point he was hired, and the number of different
5:28
Speaker 3: people I've talked to or observed or listened to, you know,
5:31
Speaker 3: West Virginia people upset about losing him, people that I
5:36
Speaker 3: know in the sport who have you know, very little
5:38
Speaker 3: obfection for Indiana basketball, who think it's a pretty good hire.
5:44
Speaker 3: I think, you know, at least early on, my reaction
5:48
Speaker 3: was I think probably something agin to Okay, let's see,
5:52
Speaker 3: let's see how this works, let's see what this looks like.
5:56
Speaker 3: And to your point, I think, thus far, while all
6:01
Speaker 3: you know, I've seen too many of these sort of
6:04
Speaker 3: you know, portal roster remakes, uh makes sense on paper
6:09
Speaker 3: and then not come together in practice. There's there's a
6:13
Speaker 3: lot in theory to like about what you know, kind
6:17
Speaker 3: of the the the trajectory Indiana is on for next
6:22
Speaker 3: season based on the players that Indian has been able
6:25
Speaker 3: to bring in based on I think some in different
6:29
Speaker 3: cases and fairly obvious fits to what Devrees Devrees teams
6:35
Speaker 3: have kind of done historically. I don't think Indiana is
6:38
Speaker 3: gonna be the perfect team by any means, but it's
6:41
Speaker 3: not hard to sell me on the idea that it's
6:42
Speaker 3: going to be a better team. You know that it's
6:44
Speaker 3: than it's been the last couple of years. And I
6:47
Speaker 3: think you've certainly seen Indiana flexus financial muscle in the
6:51
Speaker 3: roster building process. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
6:54
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone should apologize for that. That it's just,
6:57
Speaker 3: you know, part of the equation for success in college basketball,
7:02
Speaker 3: you know, in twenty twenty five. But I think there's
7:05
Speaker 3: alstill been you know, quietly, I think there have been
7:09
Speaker 3: a number of different sort of data points or mile
7:12
Speaker 3: markers in this process that have been encouraging. I mean,
7:15
Speaker 3: you know, when was the last time you saw Indiana
7:18
Speaker 3: hire an assistant coach off an the Laite eight team?
7:21
Speaker 3: You know? I mean that that we've seen Indiana try,
7:24
Speaker 3: but we've not seen Indiana do it. And that's not
7:27
Speaker 3: that alone doesn't mean this is all going to work.
7:32
Speaker 3: But it's things like that, and it's it's if you
7:34
Speaker 3: just sort of if you sit down and you you
7:37
Speaker 3: array out everything that we've seen over the last what
7:39
Speaker 3: probably six weeks since Devres was officially confirmed. There is
7:45
Speaker 3: a lot I think to be encouraged by, whether it's
7:50
Speaker 3: devrees on background, the players he's recruited, the extent to
7:55
Speaker 3: which it feels like you can track, you know, kind
7:58
Speaker 3: of this this this raw process and you can see,
8:02
Speaker 3: I mean not to buy into a Twitter alignment, you
8:05
Speaker 3: can see the vision a little bit. I just think
8:10
Speaker 3: there's you know, I'm too old and I've seen too
8:13
Speaker 3: many false dawns to sit here and promise anybody that
8:17
Speaker 3: you know, this is a home run and it's all
8:20
Speaker 3: going to work out. But I think there are reasons
8:23
Speaker 3: for encouragement as we sit here today on one Bay one.
8:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been interesting just to trying to compare this
8:34
Speaker 1: situation to the last two coaching hires, because, as you said,
8:38
Speaker 1: I feel like when Archie Miller was hired, there was
8:41
Speaker 1: a ton of optimism for many reasons, you know, coming
8:45
Speaker 1: off of his tenure there at Dayton, and it felt
8:49
Speaker 1: like he assembled a really strong coaching staff. There's also
8:53
Speaker 1: a much different time in college basketball without the transfer portal,
8:57
Speaker 1: and then Woodson obviously came in and kept Trace Jackson
9:02
Speaker 1: Davis around, which was a huge, huge recruiting win. I
9:04
Speaker 1: think it really helped prep him for his first two
9:08
Speaker 1: seasons and what he was able to do there get
9:09
Speaker 1: into the tournament. And you mentioned sometimes we fall into
9:13
Speaker 1: that trap of, you know, judging a higher. I think
9:16
Speaker 1: quite frankly, you know, people have asked me like, what
9:18
Speaker 1: do you think of this higher? I'm like, I can't
9:21
Speaker 1: really tell you right now, because you know, anything I
9:23
Speaker 1: say would be a complete guest. I think all of
9:25
Speaker 1: us are guessing we can. We can do things for
9:27
Speaker 1: clicks and say this is an A higher, this is
9:29
Speaker 1: a B plus higher. But kind of, you know, looking
9:33
Speaker 1: at this and maybe comparing it to what Indiana did
9:36
Speaker 1: the past two highers, is there anything you can point
9:38
Speaker 1: to in terms of the process to where they arrived here,
9:42
Speaker 1: It feels like it was a little bit more, maybe
9:44
Speaker 1: more data driven in terms of the work that they
9:46
Speaker 1: did in the background and kind of the profile that
9:48
Speaker 1: they were looking at. Is there anything maybe that that
9:51
Speaker 1: stands out different from this search and where they arrived
9:54
Speaker 1: compared to the last two, I.
9:56
Speaker 3: Think there, yeah, I mean, I think there were some
9:58
Speaker 3: some data driven elements. I I thought the Mike Woodson hire,
10:05
Speaker 3: for a lot of reasons, was kind of a piece
10:08
Speaker 3: undo itself. And you know, I know there's a lot
10:10
Speaker 3: of people that want to get into kind of the
10:11
Speaker 3: palace intrigue of you know, who was flexing their muscle
10:16
Speaker 3: in that, and trustees and whatever. I'd also point out
10:19
Speaker 3: like Indiana was hiring somebody in the middle of a pandemic,
10:22
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, and we were about to enter
10:23
Speaker 3: an NIL world we have no idea about. I mean,
10:26
Speaker 3: like I remember in those first days.
10:28
Speaker 4: Of NIL, people getting really excited about partnerships with like
10:32
Speaker 4: banks and you know, like like restaurants, you know, I
10:36
Speaker 4: mean that the idea that you look back now and.
10:39
Speaker 3: That all seems so quaint, but we had no idea
10:41
Speaker 3: what any of that looked like. And we were living
10:43
Speaker 3: in a very uncertain world then, and so the Woodson
10:46
Speaker 3: hiring almost as kind of a piece undo itself. But
10:50
Speaker 3: I think that Indiana, you know, certainly was trying to
10:55
Speaker 3: use a mixture of sort of data and research. And
11:00
Speaker 3: when I said research, I mean both numbers research and
11:02
Speaker 3: calling people that that that various sort of you know,
11:06
Speaker 3: stakeholders trusted to quiz them on what do you think
11:09
Speaker 3: of this coach or do you think that could work
11:12
Speaker 3: or whatever. I think it was a combination of both
11:13
Speaker 3: of those things. I think I think in particular, like
11:18
Speaker 3: this was not the necessarily the thing that convinced me,
11:22
Speaker 3: oh this is this is this higher this process was
11:24
Speaker 3: ideal and this will absolutely work. But I think, for example,
11:29
Speaker 3: Indiana took some steps to try and ensure that it
11:33
Speaker 3: wasn't hiring I don't want to call Archie Miller fools gold.
11:38
Speaker 3: I think that's unfair. Like he went to four straight tournaments.
11:41
Speaker 3: That's not an easy thing to do. But one of
11:44
Speaker 3: the data points that Indiana kind of came to with
11:49
Speaker 3: Darren Devrees that I think it was looking for in saying,
11:53
Speaker 3: is there something that we're missing? Is there something that
11:56
Speaker 3: we missed in hiring Archie Miller that can inform whether
12:01
Speaker 3: or not the next guy is the right guy. And
12:05
Speaker 3: one of the things that they found was that basically
12:09
Speaker 3: that Archie Miller had success at Dayton, but that there
12:13
Speaker 3: was an extent to which that success had been carried
12:15
Speaker 3: over from Brian Gregory, and I think actually Gregory had
12:20
Speaker 3: he hadn't gone to the tournament, I don't think, but
12:22
Speaker 3: he'd won more games in his last four years in
12:25
Speaker 3: Dayton before taking the Georgia Tech job than Archie Miller
12:28
Speaker 3: won in his first four years in Dayton. It was
12:30
Speaker 3: it was still a healthy number both ways. It was
12:31
Speaker 3: like ninety five to ninety. But the point was, you know,
12:37
Speaker 3: there was already a structure in place at Dayton that
12:41
Speaker 3: Archie Miller was able to inherit and refashion and you know,
12:46
Speaker 3: kind of remake in some aspects according to his own
12:50
Speaker 3: designs and then carry that forward and have success. Whereas
12:54
Speaker 3: Darren Devrees at Drake, the number was the numbers were
12:56
Speaker 3: something like forty and ninety six. I think Drake had
13:00
Speaker 3: won forty games the four years before he got there.
13:03
Speaker 3: The number was somewhere in the nineties. I don't remember,
13:05
Speaker 3: ninety four, ninety five, ninety six, somewhere in there. Those
13:07
Speaker 3: That was how many games he won in his first
13:09
Speaker 3: four years. And when you looked at just in general
13:13
Speaker 3: the six year run he had it, Drake Drake had
13:17
Speaker 3: really never in the modern structure of let's say, the
13:22
Speaker 3: modern NCAA tournament Drake had never had a run like that.
13:26
Speaker 3: You know, you have to go back to the late sixties,
13:28
Speaker 3: early seventies, back when you know, the NCAA Tournament only
13:31
Speaker 3: led in like twelve teams or sixteen teams, and the
13:33
Speaker 3: NIT was very competitive, and there were other postseason events
13:36
Speaker 3: and things. You know, if we say the modern era
13:40
Speaker 3: of college basketball, that probably starts either at thirty two
13:42
Speaker 3: teams in the NCAA Tournament, or I think there was
13:45
Speaker 3: a brief period where there were forty eight teams in
13:48
Speaker 3: the NCAA Tournament. I think in eighty one, Indiana's second
13:51
Speaker 3: natural title learn of Bob nine. I think that was
13:53
Speaker 3: a forty eight team tournament. You know, that is probably
13:58
Speaker 3: kind of the quote unquote modern era of college basketball,
14:01
Speaker 3: and Indiana's research showed that basically Drake had never been
14:06
Speaker 3: successful at anywhere near that level consistently in that span
14:12
Speaker 3: until Darren Devrez arrived, and there were other I think
14:15
Speaker 3: marker points too, and then I think there was probably
14:17
Speaker 3: some encouragement over what he did at West Virginia. Was
14:19
Speaker 3: only there for a year, but obviously, you know, they
14:22
Speaker 3: win nineteen games, you know, probably would have won more
14:26
Speaker 3: if his son hadn't gotten hurt again. We don't need
14:29
Speaker 3: to hash up what happened on selection Sunday, but everyone
14:31
Speaker 3: sort of felt like if there was a team that really,
14:34
Speaker 3: you know, got you know, kind of shafted in the
14:38
Speaker 3: selection process, it was almost certainly West Virginia. So I
14:43
Speaker 3: think there was a slightly more note. Let me also
14:47
Speaker 3: say I don't think Indiana didn't take an analytical approach
14:50
Speaker 3: in hiring Archie Miller. I do think Indiana tried to
14:56
Speaker 3: identify both marker points for what had made coaching hires
15:04
Speaker 3: successful at similar institutions in the recent past. And I
15:09
Speaker 3: think somewhat importantly, Indiana had also tried to identify why
15:14
Speaker 3: its own hires had not worked out. And I think
15:20
Speaker 3: that that sort of self reflection and that willingness to
15:23
Speaker 3: be a little bit self critical, I think should give
15:27
Speaker 3: fans at least a little bit more comfort around how
15:32
Speaker 3: and why Indiana landed on Darren DeVries that this wasn't
15:36
Speaker 3: just a this wasn't just a process of you know,
15:39
Speaker 3: let's go find the guy who nailed the interview and
15:42
Speaker 3: you know, has the best references and whatever, but let's
15:44
Speaker 3: ask the question of what have we gotten wrong in
15:49
Speaker 3: the past? That is that has gotten us onto this
15:52
Speaker 3: this this carousel of you know, three or four years
15:55
Speaker 3: new coach, three or four years new coach, and how
15:59
Speaker 3: do we correct that in the way that we evaluate
16:04
Speaker 3: the candidates that we consider for this job.
16:09
Speaker 1: Looking at just kind of the roster right now, eleven
16:12
Speaker 1: scholarship players, I think I think that's right if you
16:16
Speaker 1: include Trent Cisly, ten portal commitments, eleven with Sisily, the
16:20
Speaker 1: potential maybe for Luke Goodie depending on what happens with
16:24
Speaker 1: the waiver process. Just just a big picture, this roster
16:29
Speaker 1: that they've put together for year one, What what maybe
16:32
Speaker 1: stands out to you in terms of some of the
16:36
Speaker 1: just the way that the roster was built positionally. You know,
16:39
Speaker 1: some people have asked me, well, is there going to
16:41
Speaker 1: be a rim protecting big man. I'm not sure that's
16:43
Speaker 1: going to be something that's added from this point forward.
16:46
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's not going to be, but it
16:49
Speaker 1: seems like in some ways that they're they're they're somewhat
16:52
Speaker 1: comfortable with what they have right now in the front court.
16:55
Speaker 1: What what just from a roster construction standpoint, has it
17:00
Speaker 1: out in terms of the pieces they put together and
17:03
Speaker 1: also how competitive does it do you think this team
17:09
Speaker 1: can be in year one? Obviously we've seen it in
17:12
Speaker 1: the last cycle with some big time programs hiring coaches,
17:16
Speaker 1: getting to the tournament right away.
17:18
Speaker 2: Some of the recruits that they've.
17:20
Speaker 1: Landed I've talked to and they've all referenced, you know,
17:22
Speaker 1: the goal is get to the tournament, competing in the
17:24
Speaker 1: Big ten in year one. It certainly seems like they've
17:26
Speaker 1: got the pieces to do that. Albeit some guys are
17:30
Speaker 1: betting on coming up from a lower level. So I'm
17:33
Speaker 1: just kind of curious for where you think this roster
17:35
Speaker 1: stands right now, are their needs for other positions, and
17:41
Speaker 1: just in terms of competing next year.
17:42
Speaker 2: What do you think is realistic for this group?
17:46
Speaker 3: Well, it's I mean, listen, it's it's obviously difficult. I mean,
17:51
Speaker 3: like it's never been harder to evaluate like that question,
17:56
Speaker 3: when so much turns over everywhere, like there should be
18:00
Speaker 3: I think a robust amount of belief and dust again
18:02
Speaker 3: going back to Justin May at Michigan. But on the
18:05
Speaker 3: other hand, I mean, Dusty May lost some of his
18:08
Speaker 3: most important players like that. That old team in a
18:12
Speaker 3: lot of respects was built around Danny Wolf, Vlad Golden
18:19
Speaker 3: and Trey Donaldson and they're all gone. Donald In transferred.
18:26
Speaker 3: I'm not losing my mind, right.
18:28
Speaker 2: Brian and I He's gone to Miami.
18:30
Speaker 3: But they brought in some really promising transfers. They've got
18:32
Speaker 3: one of the best, you know, on paper, one of
18:34
Speaker 3: the best transfer classes in the country. So you look
18:35
Speaker 3: at it and you say, well, Dusty May has earned,
18:39
Speaker 3: you know, sort of the trust to the right to
18:41
Speaker 3: be believed in until proven wrong, even if he's turning
18:45
Speaker 3: over the roster. But on the other hand, you know,
18:48
Speaker 3: if we're sitting here and we're evaluating, I mean, the
18:51
Speaker 3: only two guys on that team that had a usage
18:53
Speaker 3: rate above twenty two percent are gone, so is so
18:56
Speaker 3: is that team's starting point guard. So you kind of
19:00
Speaker 3: have to see it to know for sure on paper,
19:06
Speaker 3: and I pull I'm pulling up your scholarship charge just
19:09
Speaker 3: to remind myself because it's so easy to forget with
19:12
Speaker 3: all of these new names on paper. A lot of
19:15
Speaker 3: it makes sense, and especially when you when you think
19:20
Speaker 3: back to Debrees sort of outline of his own team.
19:26
Speaker 3: You know, when we talked to him the day was hired,
19:29
Speaker 3: there was a lot of discussion of motion principles, I mean,
19:35
Speaker 3: I don't think he used the term positionless basketball, but
19:38
Speaker 3: that's kind of what motion offense is, right Like, it's
19:40
Speaker 3: the idea that the ball keeps moving and you're not
19:45
Speaker 3: you know, like to use the Mike Woodson offense, which,
19:50
Speaker 3: let's be fair to it had some successful years, especially
19:53
Speaker 3: under Trace Jackson Davis. With Trace Jackson Davis in the.
19:56
Speaker 5: Post once your transition options were exhaust that offense was
20:01
Speaker 5: built around posting up a big throwing in the ball
20:05
Speaker 5: and then letting everything operate off of that a lot
20:07
Speaker 5: of the time, or choosing to bring that big out
20:11
Speaker 5: into a ball screen situation and then letting.
20:13
Speaker 3: That operate out of a lot of the time. The
20:17
Speaker 3: way that Devrees talks about his offense and every you know,
20:21
Speaker 3: it's it's a lazy comparison, but every time I see it,
20:25
Speaker 3: or every time I hear him talk about it, I
20:27
Speaker 3: think about Creighton is a little bit more motion based,
20:34
Speaker 3: certainly a lot less post up based. I think there's
20:36
Speaker 3: gonna be plenty of ball screen action, but you can
20:38
Speaker 3: have ball screen action with motion concepts. And when you
20:41
Speaker 3: look at up, of course, you know you got three
20:45
Speaker 3: players on this roster you would probably describe positionally as
20:48
Speaker 3: point guards or at least as lead guards in Connorway
20:52
Speaker 3: and right and drink. You've got multiple wings your bigs.
20:57
Speaker 3: You know, we'll see what kind of what Josh Harris
20:59
Speaker 3: maybe becomes long term, but you know, functionally your bigs
21:03
Speaker 3: right now can can fit a fairly specific sort of
21:09
Speaker 3: set of roles at both ends of the floor. Protect
21:11
Speaker 3: the rim, rebound screen, lob you know, finish well, et cetera.
21:18
Speaker 3: You know it, It's not hard to make a lot
21:22
Speaker 3: of this makes sense sort of functionally under what Devrees
21:28
Speaker 3: has has sort of said. These are my sort of philosophies,
21:32
Speaker 3: especially offensively. These are, you know, the concepts that I
21:35
Speaker 3: kind of draw from. But and I suspect this is
21:41
Speaker 3: where I'm gonna sound really boring for the next few
21:43
Speaker 3: months until you see it work, especially with a completely
21:47
Speaker 3: new team. I mean, we'll see if Benniana gets Loup
21:50
Speaker 3: Goodie back, you know what we'll see. But it is
21:54
Speaker 3: going to be at very least damn near a completely
21:57
Speaker 3: new team until you all of these pieces sort of
22:02
Speaker 3: arranged on the floor and you can look at and say,
22:07
Speaker 3: this guy sets the tone defensively. These are the players
22:10
Speaker 3: that make sure Indiana is rebounding the ball at the
22:13
Speaker 3: level that it needs to. The shooting, the scoring has
22:17
Speaker 3: translated up from the mid major level for a Lamar Wilkerson,
22:22
Speaker 3: you know, for I mean Tucker Devrees is a little
22:27
Speaker 3: bit of kind of a halfway house there, right because
22:29
Speaker 3: he it was looking I mean, he was looking encouraging
22:35
Speaker 3: at was in my mind it was Virginia. But that's
22:39
Speaker 3: a small sample size. But a Nick Dora and adjacent
22:41
Speaker 3: drake until you see it and you know, and this
22:43
Speaker 3: is where I think Indiana going on a preseason tour
22:46
Speaker 3: is maybe one of the easiest decisions for Debrees in
22:52
Speaker 3: you know, kind of the first few weeks of his tenure,
22:56
Speaker 3: you're just not sure. And the flip side to that
23:01
Speaker 3: is you can say that about you know, all manner
23:05
Speaker 3: of teams in the Big Ten, and I think back,
23:07
Speaker 3: you know, some of the comparisons I found myself making
23:09
Speaker 3: going in both directions is, you know, nobody really knew
23:14
Speaker 3: what to expect from Kentucky last year and Mark Pope's
23:17
Speaker 3: first season, similar situation. Not maybe not quite the same
23:20
Speaker 3: amount of roster turnomber, but a lot of players pulled
23:22
Speaker 3: in from from somewhere else. Amari Williams. Was it, Drexel,
23:28
Speaker 3: Tega Oway, was it Oklahoma? You know that? I mean
23:31
Speaker 3: I think Jackson Robinson was it? What was it BYU?
23:34
Speaker 3: I think with Mark Pope, and that found up working
23:37
Speaker 3: really well. I mean, you know from from kind of
23:40
Speaker 3: early on. You know that team, that Kentucky team beat
23:44
Speaker 3: Duke in November, at beaton Zaga. At December, it beat
23:48
Speaker 3: what turned out to be a pretty good Louisville team
23:50
Speaker 3: that same month, and and beat Florida, the eventual national champion,
23:55
Speaker 3: to start conference play. And you know, I mean, it
23:58
Speaker 3: ends up ten and eight in the SEC. But if
24:00
Speaker 3: right now I promised you, let's say eleven and nine
24:04
Speaker 3: in the Big Ten and twenty four wins in a
24:06
Speaker 3: Sweet sixteen appearance next year, that would be a substantial,
24:10
Speaker 3: you know win for Indiana in Darren DeVries first season.
24:13
Speaker 3: On the other hand, the other example I've used, and
24:16
Speaker 3: I understand that in the end they wound up in
24:19
Speaker 3: the Sweet sixteen, but we could have told a very
24:22
Speaker 3: similar story about Arkansas, you know, in John Calipari. And
24:27
Speaker 3: you know, I think a lot of people were getting
24:29
Speaker 3: a lot of mileage out of that that clip of
24:32
Speaker 3: cal part saying I've talked.
24:33
Speaker 2: To the team there is there is no team.
24:35
Speaker 3: You know, and that team again similarly turned over. Of course,
24:41
Speaker 3: Cal brings some players with him from Kentucky, so it's
24:43
Speaker 3: a little bit of a different roster building process. But
24:46
Speaker 3: if anything, that should make everything go a little bit smoother.
24:50
Speaker 3: And yet that team starts one and six in SEC
24:53
Speaker 3: play and spends the entire year swimming upstream before, to
24:57
Speaker 3: its credit, it gets into the tournament and makes a
24:59
Speaker 3: little bit noise. I'm not predicting Indiana's gonna wind up
25:04
Speaker 3: in Sweet sixteen. I'm using those as two sort of
25:08
Speaker 3: sort of opposite examples of when you turn your roster over.
25:12
Speaker 3: As much as as Indiana has, there's just no way
25:17
Speaker 3: to know for sure. A lot of this makes sense
25:20
Speaker 3: to me on paper. A lot of this makes sense
25:22
Speaker 3: to me positionally functionally, you know, I even like kind
25:26
Speaker 3: of the pieces that Indiana's got that should have years
25:29
Speaker 3: beyond this year. So you can you can talk about
25:32
Speaker 3: a little bit of a pathway for someone like Nick
25:33
Speaker 3: Dorn or just sigh Miles to say, you know you're
25:36
Speaker 3: gonna be this this year, but you're all gonna be
25:38
Speaker 3: this next year something different next year. You just need
25:42
Speaker 3: to see it, and like I said, I probably am
25:44
Speaker 3: going to become a boring broken record in the next
25:47
Speaker 3: few months when I talk about this, But I just
25:50
Speaker 3: don't really know of any other way to talk about
25:54
Speaker 3: it except conceptually to suggest that, you know, the proof
25:59
Speaker 3: will be in the putting one way or the other.
26:02
Speaker 1: Do you think I've had some people ask mere readers
26:06
Speaker 1: of the site various emails things like that, just asking
26:09
Speaker 1: about the fact that Indiana has so many guys moving
26:12
Speaker 1: up from the mid major level to the high major level.
26:16
Speaker 1: Concerns about that. Do you do you think it matters
26:19
Speaker 1: all that that matters all that that much now and
26:22
Speaker 1: kind of the modern system that we're in in terms
26:25
Speaker 1: of the portal and player movement, it seems like.
26:28
Speaker 2: Rather than trying to reach for maybe a guy that didn't.
26:32
Speaker 1: Produce as much at the at the high major level,
26:35
Speaker 1: it maybe make more sense to go and get a
26:37
Speaker 1: guy that was, you know, the Sun Belt Player of
26:39
Speaker 1: the year or an all freshman guy in a lower
26:41
Speaker 1: level league and.
26:43
Speaker 2: Bet on that production.
26:44
Speaker 1: Maybe translating, I'm just curious what you make of the
26:48
Speaker 1: fact that you know, you mentioned mentioned Derees having kind
26:51
Speaker 1: of their trial run at h in the Big Twelve,
26:54
Speaker 1: but he was two time Missouri Value Player of the Year.
26:57
Speaker 1: You look at some of these other guys, I do
26:59
Speaker 1: realize they did get transfer from Florida, but most of
27:02
Speaker 1: them are kind of unproven at this level, and I'm
27:04
Speaker 1: curious if there should be any concern or are how
27:08
Speaker 1: do you think that translates with so many guys coming
27:11
Speaker 1: trying to move up?
27:12
Speaker 3: No, I mean, like listen, it's I mean, there's I
27:17
Speaker 3: had somebody suggest to me that, like Indiana was using
27:21
Speaker 3: a Signetti esque approach to building its roster, and I said, well,
27:24
Speaker 3: where do you think most of these transferred are going
27:26
Speaker 3: to come from? Like Kurt Signetti didn't invent the idea
27:28
Speaker 3: of going out and finding players with proven production and
27:33
Speaker 3: betting on the idea that enough of that production will
27:36
Speaker 3: translate up a level, you know, for that player or
27:40
Speaker 3: that group of players to be successful. So you know,
27:43
Speaker 3: maybe this is obviously completely you know, hypothetical, but you know,
27:49
Speaker 3: maybe Lamar Wilkerson doesn't quite shoot or score at the
27:52
Speaker 3: level that he did at Sam Houston State, but maybe
27:54
Speaker 3: Nick Norn, you know, his numbers translate pretty cleanly from
27:57
Speaker 3: Elon and then in the aggregate you get a better
28:01
Speaker 3: roster kind of on the on on the you know,
28:03
Speaker 3: in the overall, when you finally boil it all together,
28:08
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, go back and look at that
28:10
Speaker 3: Kentucky team. Alway comes from Oklahoma, but Williams comes from Drexel.
28:15
Speaker 3: Lamont Butler comes from Wake Forest.
28:19
Speaker 2: San Diego State. I think San Diego.
28:21
Speaker 3: Sorry, san Diego State, thank you. I think Andrew car
28:23
Speaker 3: can work Forest, you know, I mean, go go look
28:25
Speaker 3: at Auburn. Chad Baker Mazzar comes from San Diego State.
28:30
Speaker 3: I think people forget like because he was at Auburn
28:32
Speaker 3: for so long, but like jenn I Brewin started his
28:34
Speaker 3: career at the mid major level at Morehead State, it's
28:39
Speaker 3: not a And the flip side is I can find
28:42
Speaker 3: you examples. I mean, like, you know, Houston's too, and
28:45
Speaker 3: I'm using Final four teams here. Houston's two major sort
28:51
Speaker 3: of impact transfers. L J. Crier came from Baylor, milis
28:56
Speaker 3: Use Milos Jus came from Oklahoma, so you know, can
29:00
Speaker 3: go both ways. And the flip side is to take
29:03
Speaker 3: you back to last year when Indiana went out and
29:06
Speaker 3: recruited a whole bunch of In a lot of cases,
29:11
Speaker 3: you know, pretty statistically successful high major players. You know,
29:15
Speaker 3: Canon Carlisle averaged eleven and a half points roughly a
29:18
Speaker 3: game at Stanford as a freshman. You know, Miles Rice
29:22
Speaker 3: was was packed twelve Freshmen of the Year, first team
29:25
Speaker 3: All Conference, Umar Ballo, you know, had a resume as
29:28
Speaker 3: long as you are of you know, individual achievements and
29:33
Speaker 3: successes at Arizona. Lou Goodie, and you know, Goodie is
29:38
Speaker 3: maybe the the outlier in that transfer class in the
29:41
Speaker 3: sense that he winds up being exactly what Indiana needed from,
29:43
Speaker 3: if not even maybe a little bit more, a little
29:45
Speaker 3: bit better pagularly, offensively. But my point is one way.
29:52
Speaker 3: It's it's not that one way is right and one
29:55
Speaker 3: way is wrong, Like increasingly I have just come to
29:58
Speaker 3: believe that it is. It is basically just a question
30:02
Speaker 3: of whether the coach is is capable of taking the
30:10
Speaker 3: players that he decides hit what he's trying to do
30:14
Speaker 3: and put them in the right positions to succeed. Again,
30:17
Speaker 3: it's you know, there's always this temptation to use teams
30:20
Speaker 3: that were in the previous season's final four as the paradigm,
30:23
Speaker 3: but it is interesting to kind of go through those
30:25
Speaker 3: rosters and think about Like I said, Houston didn't take
30:29
Speaker 3: a ton of transfers. That's not Calvin Sampson's way. The
30:32
Speaker 3: two high profile transfers in his rotation both came from
30:35
Speaker 3: high major conferences. On the other hand, you know, Florida
30:42
Speaker 3: and Auburn are two programs that had you know, I
30:45
Speaker 3: think Florida's two primary guards. Maybe it's maybe, I mean,
30:49
Speaker 3: we can have this discussion, but maybe it's two most
30:51
Speaker 3: important players just in terms of raw production and ability,
30:55
Speaker 3: came from FAU and IOTA. So like it. What my
31:02
Speaker 3: anecdotal experience tells me is number one, it makes perfect
31:09
Speaker 3: sense because that is where the majority of your talent
31:15
Speaker 3: is going to be in the portal. If you're a
31:16
Speaker 3: team like Indiana, to look at players who are trying
31:19
Speaker 3: to up transfer. That's Luke wins old praise from when
31:22
Speaker 3: he was at Sports Illustrated up transfer from a mid
31:25
Speaker 3: major program to a high major program. There are gonna
31:27
Speaker 3: be a lot more for a program like Indiana, and
31:29
Speaker 3: it's always looking for, you know, players at the top
31:32
Speaker 3: end of the talent pool. There are gonna be a
31:35
Speaker 3: lot more of those players than there are gonna be
31:37
Speaker 3: productive high major players because productive high major players. Their
31:40
Speaker 3: teams will have tried their best to retain them. It
31:43
Speaker 3: makes all the sense in the world to target those players.
31:46
Speaker 3: This proster, yes, leans heavily into that. Right again, Let's
31:50
Speaker 3: go back to the scholarship question. Samuel Xiss from Florida,
31:54
Speaker 3: but go down the list from there, Davidson Troy, West,
31:58
Speaker 3: Virginia one year at the Paul. But before that, Drake.
32:02
Speaker 3: The name can be said for Tucker Devrees, Sam Houston
32:06
Speaker 3: Elon Draftsoul, North, Florida. You know, yes, this roster leans
32:11
Speaker 3: a little bit heavier into the mid major sort of
32:14
Speaker 3: talent pool than most. But my experience, and like I
32:22
Speaker 3: said before it is anecdotal, has taught me that really
32:24
Speaker 3: it just comes down to the coach. And if the
32:27
Speaker 3: coach has a firm, clear eyed idea of what his
32:32
Speaker 3: team needs and his confidence in being able to identify
32:35
Speaker 3: it and then and then adapt it into the overall,
32:38
Speaker 3: you know sort of team, then you'll be fine. And
32:43
Speaker 3: if the coach doesn't have that, it doesn't really matter
32:45
Speaker 3: what you recruit. It doesn't matter if you recruit guys
32:48
Speaker 3: with McDonald's all American pedigrees or guys that were all
32:52
Speaker 3: you know, first team All Conference at a high major
32:54
Speaker 3: conference a year ago or whatever, you'll struggle because the
32:58
Speaker 3: team just won't make sense. And again, there's a lot
33:04
Speaker 3: that I can look at in Darren Debrie's past and
33:07
Speaker 3: sort of overlay onto this roster and make it man sense.
33:11
Speaker 3: But you just kind of have to. I mean, seeing
33:14
Speaker 3: is going to be believing.
33:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think what I've kind of told
33:18
Speaker 1: people is there's a finite number of those high major
33:21
Speaker 1: contributors anyway that are going to be willing to transfer
33:23
Speaker 1: because a lot of them are, like you said, either
33:25
Speaker 1: getting paid handsomely by their current school, or some of them,
33:30
Speaker 1: the best ones are going pro. You look at some
33:33
Speaker 1: of the price tags that we've seen assigned to some
33:35
Speaker 1: of these higher profile guys, I mean, three or four
33:37
Speaker 1: million dollars for one player. I'm not sure how much
33:39
Speaker 1: that makes sense when you're trying to completely overhaul your
33:42
Speaker 1: roster to the extent that Indiana is. And I also
33:47
Speaker 1: think that it's smart to take guys that have proven
33:52
Speaker 1: it one year or two years somewhere else to have
33:55
Speaker 1: remaining eligibilities and then reach for freshmen in the a
33:57
Speaker 1: freshman or two in the spring. Not saying that a
33:59
Speaker 1: fresh couldn't be added, but I don't think those are
34:02
Speaker 1: guys you want to depend on necessarily next year when
34:05
Speaker 1: you're trying to get in tournament a year one. So
34:10
Speaker 1: I think they've kind of hit the sweet spot of
34:13
Speaker 1: who knows, this could all be wrong, they could underperform,
34:16
Speaker 1: but I think they've they've done a solid job of
34:19
Speaker 1: identifying guys who've produced at their level.
34:22
Speaker 2: You look at all the three point percentages of the
34:25
Speaker 2: guards the wings that they brought in.
34:27
Speaker 1: It's clearly they had a marker there and we're not
34:29
Speaker 1: going to take guys that can't shoot from the perimeter.
34:32
Speaker 1: That's a welcome change, I think for a lot of people.
34:35
Speaker 1: You look at some of the advanced statistics, offensive, rebounding percentage,
34:38
Speaker 1: block percentage, some of the front court players, they got
34:41
Speaker 1: a lot of them, you know, top fifty, top one
34:43
Speaker 1: hundred nationally in those categories. Those are strong indicators that
34:46
Speaker 1: they're going to be able to do the things that
34:48
Speaker 1: they need out of the front court. So, you know,
34:50
Speaker 1: I like the approach. I think it's been a sound approach.
34:53
Speaker 1: I think there's been a clear plan. I think that's
34:55
Speaker 1: the one thing I keep coming back to, and this
34:58
Speaker 1: is nothing against Mike Woodson is nothing again and how
35:00
Speaker 1: he built his teams certainly had a lot of talent
35:03
Speaker 1: produced NBA players, but you didn't always feel like there
35:06
Speaker 1: was a rhyme or reason to the pieces that they
35:08
Speaker 1: were putting together. It kind of felt like sometimes just
35:11
Speaker 1: collecting talent and trying to throw it all out there.
35:13
Speaker 1: We'll figure it out once the games start. This feels
35:16
Speaker 1: much more just organized in terms of who they're targeting
35:22
Speaker 1: and what they want to put together, and I think
35:24
Speaker 1: that gives you a chance to really have more success
35:27
Speaker 1: in the long term. The last thing I wanted to
35:29
Speaker 1: ask you about, and this is kind of a thing
35:31
Speaker 1: we could probably have a whole show on, so I
35:34
Speaker 1: don't want you to take too long. I know you're
35:36
Speaker 1: battling a cough over there, but just the whole house
35:42
Speaker 1: settlement that's kind of lingering over college sports right now.
35:46
Speaker 1: What what's the.
35:47
Speaker 2: End game for all this is?
35:49
Speaker 3: This?
35:49
Speaker 1: Is this something that's going to be resolved here in
35:51
Speaker 1: the next couple of weeks in terms of the roster limits.
35:53
Speaker 1: From from everything you've you've heard and read, what what
35:57
Speaker 1: maybe are the next things we're looking for just in
35:59
Speaker 1: terms of this getting put in to place and how
36:04
Speaker 1: that impacts things moving forward, because I think a lot
36:07
Speaker 1: of us were operating on the idea of, well, we
36:08
Speaker 1: have this April seventh, d eight, this is going to be
36:10
Speaker 1: a big marker, and now that's kind of all coming on,
36:14
Speaker 1: and it seems like there's still some negotiations going on
36:16
Speaker 1: as to whether this actually gets gets done.
36:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean, you're right, like the long form
36:25
Speaker 3: answer to that question is probably not just complicated, but
36:29
Speaker 3: above my pay grade. I think what does seem to
36:33
Speaker 3: be holding it up right now, primarily is this question
36:35
Speaker 3: of roster caps. And I think you know, I tried
36:38
Speaker 3: to write an explainer on this last week that you know,
36:42
Speaker 3: sports scholarship limits as they existed before the House Settlement
36:46
Speaker 3: remained the same. So football canna have eighty five scholarship players.
36:49
Speaker 3: Mens women's basketball are full counter sports at thirteen you
36:53
Speaker 3: still have your equivalency sports and so forth. What the
36:58
Speaker 3: House Settlement is going to land is for schools to
37:02
Speaker 3: commit if they choose two and a half million of
37:06
Speaker 3: the twenty point five million of their revenue sharing pool
37:10
Speaker 3: toward more scholarships, and per my understanding, and this is
37:15
Speaker 3: primarily by Kurtzignetti, is You can't do it a la carte.
37:19
Speaker 3: You can't say I just want one more football scholarship
37:22
Speaker 3: this year. I got this kid, I think he's really good.
37:24
Speaker 3: I want to stash it. If you go over by
37:30
Speaker 3: one scholarship in any sport, you automatically, is my understanding,
37:35
Speaker 3: trigger the two point five million, So you have to
37:37
Speaker 3: have a plan for all of it. What the NCAA
37:41
Speaker 3: and the conferences sphered was that if they allow such
37:46
Speaker 3: substantial extra scholarship spending, then what would stop schools from
37:52
Speaker 3: stashing players? So, and this is a very rudimentary history lesson.
37:58
Speaker 3: I'm sure there was more to it than this, but
38:03
Speaker 3: this was the way it was always told to me anyway,
38:05
Speaker 3: growing up in Atlanta with the Georgia Tech alumnu's grandfather.
38:09
Speaker 3: That Georgia Tech left the SEC essentially because Bear Bryant
38:12
Speaker 3: got into the practice of signing like twice as many
38:15
Speaker 3: kids every year as he knew he needed. But there
38:19
Speaker 3: were rules, as there were for so many different conferences,
38:24
Speaker 3: around transferring in conference. So what he'd do is he'd
38:26
Speaker 3: sign a whole bunch more than he'd needed, cut a
38:28
Speaker 3: bunch of them, and then those players wouldn't be able
38:30
Speaker 3: to transfer to another SEC school, and Bobby Dodd, who
38:34
Speaker 3: was Georgia Tech's legendary head coach, won i think three
38:37
Speaker 3: national titles there in the fifties, basically went to the
38:41
Speaker 3: SEC office and said, we have to stop this. This
38:43
Speaker 3: isn't fair. The SEC Office wouldn't stand up to Bear Bryant,
38:46
Speaker 3: and so Bobby Dodd picked Georgia Tech up and took
38:50
Speaker 3: him out of the SEC. It went independent. What I
38:53
Speaker 3: think there was again, I'm sure there's more to it
38:56
Speaker 3: than that. That was the story. It was as it
38:57
Speaker 3: was always related to me. What I think the powers
39:01
Speaker 3: that be all feared was that in a more modern construct,
39:08
Speaker 3: so if you added twenty five scholarships.
39:11
Speaker 6: In football, what would stop you know, a school that
39:16
Speaker 6: did that from going out and using you know, it's
39:20
Speaker 6: nil plus it's revenue sharing money, independent of the extra
39:23
Speaker 6: scholarships to take a bunch of players and just stash
39:26
Speaker 6: them on its roster.
39:28
Speaker 3: And then you know, you'd have even more centralization of talent.
39:32
Speaker 3: The rich would only get richer, it would be harder
39:35
Speaker 3: for you know, the talent to disperse, and the sport
39:37
Speaker 3: would become even more homogenized. So they came up with
39:40
Speaker 3: this idea of roster caps, and they said that, you
39:43
Speaker 3: know your scholarship limits remain the same. We're going to
39:45
Speaker 3: cap the total number of players scholarship and non scholarship
39:48
Speaker 3: you can have on your roster at any given time,
39:51
Speaker 3: and you can add scholarships up to that cap, but
39:55
Speaker 3: you can't go past it. You can't go past it
39:57
Speaker 3: for scholarship players, can't come past it for walk ons,
40:00
Speaker 3: for anybody. What I think, justifiably some complainants in the
40:09
Speaker 3: house case have argued is if we institute these roster
40:13
Speaker 3: caps effective July one, a bunch of athletes are going
40:16
Speaker 3: to get cut loose. And we're talking in the thousands,
40:21
Speaker 3: you know, if not tens of thousands, if you want
40:23
Speaker 3: to add up. Football is the example everyone uses, because
40:26
Speaker 3: football's roster cap is going to be one O five.
40:29
Speaker 3: Most football programs tend to have one hundred and twenty
40:31
Speaker 3: five to one hundred and thirty players. They are a
40:32
Speaker 3: handful that have even more than that. Obviously it's eighty
40:35
Speaker 3: five plus walk on. What people who argued is and
40:38
Speaker 3: what Claudia Wilkins, the judge providing over the House case,
40:42
Speaker 3: seems to be endorsing, is the idea of grandfathering mes
40:45
Speaker 3: in and stepping them down so you can let the
40:48
Speaker 3: vast majority of these players just sort of graduate off
40:51
Speaker 3: your rosters and then just not replace them. For the moment,
40:59
Speaker 3: the NA and the conferences seem to be holding firm
41:03
Speaker 3: against this. I think there's been maybe some suggestions of
41:06
Speaker 3: movement this week. I don't think anybody really understands why
41:10
Speaker 3: something this seismic and important, why.
41:14
Speaker 2: This would be the.
41:18
Speaker 3: Why this would be the hill to die on, you know,
41:22
Speaker 3: to sort of to sort of kill the House settlement on.
41:24
Speaker 3: Because listen, I mean the you know, the party that's
41:28
Speaker 3: probably most motivated in the end by the House settlement
41:31
Speaker 3: is the NCAA. Because if this goes to trial, recent
41:37
Speaker 3: precedent suggests the NCAA will lose and that the financial
41:42
Speaker 3: penalty could be much much larger. And I don't know
41:47
Speaker 3: if it's a class action. This is where I start
41:48
Speaker 3: to swim into deep water, you know, legally in terms
41:52
Speaker 3: of legal ease. But I mean, it could just bankrupt
41:56
Speaker 3: whole system and force us to start over. And I'm
41:59
Speaker 3: not I'm not totally sure that there wouldn't be some
42:03
Speaker 3: positive elements. I'm not not necessarily bankrupting the system, but
42:07
Speaker 3: more kind of what we have here in general. And
42:11
Speaker 3: this is where I will get a little conceptual. It's like,
42:14
Speaker 3: if you've got a car that you know is breaking down,
42:18
Speaker 3: and you don't really want to pay the two thousand
42:22
Speaker 3: dollars to fix it, so you pay like a two
42:25
Speaker 3: hundred dollars repair, and then a three hundred dollars repair,
42:28
Speaker 3: and then another two hundred dollar repair, and you just
42:30
Speaker 3: keep throwing good money after bad into it, knowing in
42:34
Speaker 3: the end you're still going to have this, you know,
42:37
Speaker 3: sort of this this band aid you got to rip off. Anyway,
42:42
Speaker 3: That's kind of where I think we are with college athletics, Like,
42:45
Speaker 3: and this goes beyond just the housecase, but to talk
42:48
Speaker 3: about collective bargaining, multi year collegebacts, how to reform the
42:54
Speaker 3: transfer windows, you know, how to create a wealth redistribution
42:59
Speaker 3: system that that doesn't allow the rich to get richer
43:03
Speaker 3: without any sort of compensation, going back the other way
43:07
Speaker 3: to schools further down the financial ecosystem or further down
43:11
Speaker 3: the financial pyramid. I mean, this is my moderately informed
43:19
Speaker 3: opinion is that this the argument of a roster caps
43:23
Speaker 3: and the extent to which, at least for the moment,
43:26
Speaker 3: the NCAA and the member conferences, the defendants in the
43:29
Speaker 3: House case have decided to kind of dig their heels
43:32
Speaker 3: in and push back. Is just kind of representative of
43:38
Speaker 3: that wider idea that all politics are short term, and
43:45
Speaker 3: nobody wants nobody wants to do the hard thing that
43:49
Speaker 3: might make everyone's life more difficult immediately, but make all
43:53
Speaker 3: of this work better in the five year plan, in
43:56
Speaker 3: the ten year plan, in the twenty year plan, and
43:59
Speaker 3: maybe some of the people that take these tough decisions
44:02
Speaker 3: have to wear them and maybe they wind up, you know,
44:05
Speaker 3: ultimately pushed to one side because of the criticisms and
44:08
Speaker 3: things that come win it, but it winds up working
44:11
Speaker 3: out better for the whole system long term. I think
44:17
Speaker 3: that this is just kind of like the most like
44:19
Speaker 3: the latest example of leaders just not being willing to
44:27
Speaker 3: sort of absorb a little more short term pain for
44:31
Speaker 3: more long term gain. Now, what I'm talking about in
44:35
Speaker 3: the wider conceptual sense is a pretty dramatic renovation of
44:39
Speaker 3: college athletics and it's power structure, it's financial structure, all
44:42
Speaker 3: that stuff. But I think we're going to get We're
44:45
Speaker 3: going to keep getting pushed in that direction and the
44:48
Speaker 3: house settlement is a really important, you know, almost like
44:54
Speaker 3: pressure release valve that allows everyone to keep moving forward
44:59
Speaker 3: with out the whole thing just collapsing on itself. And
45:03
Speaker 3: I don't really this is just me speaking personally, I
45:06
Speaker 3: don't really understand why there hasn't been more of an
45:09
Speaker 3: appetite to compromise over something, excuse me, something as seemingly
45:17
Speaker 3: you know, I don't want to say benign, but certainly
45:19
Speaker 3: manageable as gradually introducing a roster cap so we don't
45:25
Speaker 3: wind up in a situation where there are thousands of
45:29
Speaker 3: athletes starting July one who are simply told you're not
45:33
Speaker 3: on my team. You don't have a place on the
45:35
Speaker 3: team anymore. Sorry, that was probably more.
45:39
Speaker 2: Than you were looking for. But it's like.
45:42
Speaker 3: The the here, like what is specific to the here
45:47
Speaker 3: and now? At least in my estimation or my processing
45:52
Speaker 3: of all this is symptomatic of a larger problem, which
45:55
Speaker 3: is that we can all generally see where this is going,
45:59
Speaker 3: and even more than that, we can probably all recognize
46:04
Speaker 3: most of the benefits that we'd get by tearing off
46:07
Speaker 3: that band aid and by you know, just just sort
46:10
Speaker 3: of what's the old, what's the old? Irish phrase throwing
46:14
Speaker 3: our cap over the walls, so that we have no
46:16
Speaker 3: choice but the climate. But we ah in the in
46:24
Speaker 3: the here and now as we're we're still dealing with,
46:27
Speaker 3: you know, basically just constant short term gain with short
46:32
Speaker 3: term pain attached to it. The house case does seem
46:37
Speaker 3: to be resting on whether or not someone will give
46:41
Speaker 3: on this question of roster caps. And if it doesn't,
46:45
Speaker 3: I mean we could be talking about an even more
46:48
Speaker 3: seismic event in you know, the the history and the
46:51
Speaker 3: structure of college athletics, which is why I think eventually
46:54
Speaker 3: there will be a compromise. Why I think eventually, you know,
46:58
Speaker 3: everyone will will metaphorically speaking, put their guns down. But
47:03
Speaker 3: it hasn't happened yet, and there's going to be a
47:06
Speaker 3: lot of sort of worried fascination around here, and by here,
47:12
Speaker 3: I mean just all of college athletics until it's resolved.
47:17
Speaker 2: For sure.
47:18
Speaker 1: Good stuff, excellent stuff as always, Zac, Thanks for braving
47:22
Speaker 1: your illness to make time for us on podcasts on
47:25
Speaker 1: the Brink. Always great to talk to you, Thank you.
47:27
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Sorry about my nasally voice.
47:31
Speaker 2: It's all good. Thanks everybody as always for listening to podcasts.
47:34
Speaker 2: On the Brink.
47:34
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47:36
Speaker 1: and review over on Apple Podcasts. Lead was a five
47:38
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47:41
Speaker 1: week with another episode of podcast on the Brink.