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Transcript

House on Fire · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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  Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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  Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
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  Speaker 2: exactly right media.
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  Speaker 3: This smoke is blaring up. This really is happening, So
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  Speaker 3: immediately run to the neighbor's house to get them to
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  Speaker 3: call the fire department. It was immediate try to undo
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  Speaker 3: what had just happened.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Patia Eton, I'm Hannah Smith.
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  Speaker 1: This week we speak with April Scales. In nineteen ninety two,
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  Speaker 1: at just fifteen years old, April was pregnant, scared, and
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  Speaker 1: facing pressure from every direction. Feeling trapped, she made a
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  Speaker 1: desperate decision, a decision that ended in tragedy and a
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  Speaker 1: murder conviction. Wow.
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  Speaker 2: After years in prison, April joins us to reflect on
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  Speaker 2: the day that changed her life forever and what her
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  Speaker 2: future looks like.
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  Speaker 1: Now, let's get into the interview.
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  Speaker 2: We'd love to start off with you just introducing yourself,
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  Speaker 2: maybe telling us a little bit about where you're from
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  Speaker 2: and your childhood.
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  Speaker 4: Hello, thank you for having me. My name is April
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  Speaker 4: Barber Scales. I grew up.
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  Speaker 3: In the rural Mountains of North Carolina in a county
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  Speaker 3: called Wilkes County, which is in the foothills. I was
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  Speaker 3: raised by my grandparents due to having teenage parents. My
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  Speaker 3: mother and father had a history of substance us to disorder, acarceration,
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  Speaker 3: going back and forth. My grandparents raised me as a result,
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  Speaker 3: hoping that my mother would eventually snap into motherhood, but
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  Speaker 3: she never did, so she started going to prison, and
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  Speaker 3: so I grew up seeing the inside of a prison,
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  Speaker 3: which didn't give me a pass for anything. If anything, it.
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  Speaker 4: Was a deterre.
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  Speaker 3: I have a pretty decent upbringing. I mean I didn't
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  Speaker 3: want for anything. I was an honorable student, kind of
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  Speaker 3: an introvert, you know, very scholastic, very curious, very curious child.
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  Speaker 3: Things were good until about the age of fourteen. I
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  Speaker 3: got a summer job and I met a guy and
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  Speaker 3: he brought me a single yellow rose, and that was
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  Speaker 3: just the most endearing thing.
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  Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about him. What did you
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  Speaker 2: know about him when you first met and how old
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  Speaker 2: was he.
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  Speaker 3: His name was Clinton Johnson, his nickname was Cel. He
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  Speaker 3: was fifteen years older than me. He was twenty nine.
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  Speaker 3: I was fourteen. He was legally separated. He had two children,
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  Speaker 3: and I just I don't know, it's just fell in
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  Speaker 3: love with him. We fell in love with one another,
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  Speaker 3: and because of the age difference, we automatically knew that
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  Speaker 3: it wasn't supposed to be He was white, which was
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  Speaker 3: frowned upon. Probably still is and County because it's very rule.
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  Speaker 3: It's kind of like you live there, you work there,
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  Speaker 3: you die there. Everyone knows everyone, so the kind knows it.
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  Speaker 1: And so having an interracial relationship, is that what you're referring.
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  Speaker 4: To, its frowned upon. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: April's summer job was connected with her high school what
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  Speaker 1: she described as a jobs training program. This was the
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  Speaker 1: summer of nineteen ninety and she was fourteen years old.
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  Speaker 1: Through the program, she was working with someone who knew
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  Speaker 1: Clinton or cl which is how he came to be
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  Speaker 1: around the school and how he met April. Looking back,
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  Speaker 1: it's clear he was the one who pursued her.
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  Speaker 3: He saw me, He came up to me and told
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  Speaker 3: me to come to this car. The next day he
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  Speaker 3: said he had something for me. I didn't know him
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  Speaker 3: prior to that.
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  Speaker 2: Given that you were aware of sort of the social
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  Speaker 2: norms and the way that the age difference in interracial
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  Speaker 2: relationship would be poorly received. But what did you yourself
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  Speaker 2: make of the age difference.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't really think that much of the age difference.
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  Speaker 3: My mother got married when she was nineteen. She stayed
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  Speaker 3: married like six years. The guy was forty two. My
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  Speaker 3: step mother is nine years older than my father. My
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  Speaker 3: playmates were pretty much my grandparents because I didn't really
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  Speaker 3: socialize a lot as a child, so all I knew
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  Speaker 3: was adults more so than children in my life.
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  Speaker 1: And what do you think about it now looking back, Well.
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  Speaker 3: A teenager and an adult, I mean, that's unheard of.
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  Speaker 3: That's automatic justice involvement. There was definitely some grooming. Of
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  Speaker 3: course I was unaware of that, but that's what it was.
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  Speaker 2: What you reflect on now as grooming. What was it
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  Speaker 2: then in the moment when you were fifteen?
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  Speaker 3: It was it was attention. It was an attraction. It
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  Speaker 3: was something that was gravitating towards me. Clearly I was
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  Speaker 3: missing something. My father had a history of being back
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  Speaker 3: and forth of incarceration in and out my life. Even
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  Speaker 3: though I was raised my grandparents, I knew who my
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  Speaker 3: biological parents were. But still, girls want to gravitate seems
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  Speaker 3: to be toward their father, So maybe I was missing
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  Speaker 3: that father figure, and that's where he filled the gaps in.
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  Speaker 1: In North Carolina, the age of consent is sixteen, and
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  Speaker 1: it has been since the early nineteen hundreds. But when
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  Speaker 1: April was a teenager, legality wasn't top of mind. She
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  Speaker 1: was excited. She felt like she was falling in love.
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  Speaker 1: She wasn't really thinking about the fact that cl At
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  Speaker 1: age twenty nine, was committing a crime by being with her.
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  Speaker 1: What she did understand instinctively was that her grandparents would
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  Speaker 1: never approve they had legally adopted her, So even though
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  Speaker 1: she called them her grandparents, they were, for all intents
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  Speaker 1: and purposes, also her parents. Her biological mother was in
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  Speaker 1: and out of prison and struggled with a substance use disorder.
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  Speaker 1: April's grandparents were the adults in her life who were
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  Speaker 1: in her well being and her future, and there was
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  Speaker 1: no world in which they would accept her being in
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  Speaker 1: a relationship with a grown man, and so she kept
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  Speaker 1: Seell a secret.
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  Speaker 3: We would call one another, We would talk a lot
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  Speaker 3: on the phone. We would sneak around. My mother would
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  Speaker 3: sometimes check me out of school with him in the car,
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  Speaker 3: so she would kind of assist us sneaking around, but
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  Speaker 3: we would give her money. So you know, like I said,
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  Speaker 3: she was involved in the substance use disorder, so anything
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  Speaker 3: to kind of get what she needed, she would kind
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  Speaker 3: of give a little to get a little.
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  Speaker 2: I'm curious just giving the you know, we're talking about
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  Speaker 2: the early nineties in rural southern community. You know what
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  Speaker 2: sort of sex education, if any, was available to you
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  Speaker 2: at that time in your life.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I mean I was always scolassed if they taught
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  Speaker 3: it in school. So I was never blinded by anything.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't question how anything worked. I was already having
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  Speaker 3: six sneaking around before I had gotten with him. I
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  Speaker 3: had tried it out, probably a couple of years ahead
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  Speaker 3: of that, maybe like twelve or so. And I think
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  Speaker 3: that just had to do with a sense of belonging.
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  Speaker 3: I just needed something to do. I like the attention.
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  Speaker 3: That's all it was. You know, you go to school,
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  Speaker 3: you hang out, you tit on the phone, sneak around,
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  Speaker 3: you have sex, you go to the movies. The sneaking
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  Speaker 3: around part.
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  Speaker 4: We both knew that.
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  Speaker 3: Looking back, I knew I had to sneak around just
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  Speaker 3: because it was a guy, just because it was the
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  Speaker 3: boyfriend age. You know, and a lot of kids aren't
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  Speaker 3: allowed to have a boyfriend until usually sixteen or so.
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  Speaker 3: So it wasn't just the fact that I knew I
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  Speaker 3: had to sneak around. It was the age, it was
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  Speaker 3: the race, it was a whole lot of things. To me,
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  Speaker 3: it was just that I knew that it was wrong
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  Speaker 3: to have a boyfriend. All the other things over time
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  Speaker 3: that added to it not being okay.
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  Speaker 1: I'm curious about his reasons for having to sneak around
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  Speaker 1: because I wonder if he was also trying to hide
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  Speaker 1: that he was dating someone so young. Did he ever
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  Speaker 1: talk about that?
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  Speaker 3: No, we never talked about it, and I think it
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  Speaker 3: may be subconsciously because looking back he didn't talk about it.
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  Speaker 3: I think he maybe made it look like it.
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  Speaker 4: Was more me that I was doing more wrong than him.
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  Speaker 3: I had to hide, I had to sneak around, even though, yes,
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  Speaker 3: this is a grown man, but yeah, here I am
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  Speaker 3: having to hide for all of my reasons. Yet his
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  Speaker 3: reasons were never disclosed, and that goes into the grooming right,
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  Speaker 3: that goes into people knowing what they're what they're planning
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  Speaker 3: to do, Because.
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  Speaker 1: Deep down, I have to imagine he knew that he
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  Speaker 1: needed to hide less that people would not look on
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  Speaker 1: this kindly.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, well, think about it. We couldn't go to
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  Speaker 3: the bar. I wasn't enough to vote, old enough to drive.
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  Speaker 3: It's not like we could go out to a color
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  Speaker 3: or anything.
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  Speaker 1: It's hard to keep a secret in a small town.
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  Speaker 1: Eventually someone is going to catch on and start talking.
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  Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happened with April and col Word
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  Speaker 1: got back to April's grandparents that she'd been seen around
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  Speaker 1: town with a man twice her age.
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  Speaker 3: We probably were able to hide it for a little
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  Speaker 3: over a year before the town started to whisper. They
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  Speaker 3: never met him, but they started hearing things, and they
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  Speaker 3: started suspecting that I was dating this guy was twice
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  Speaker 3: my age, And of course they asked me. I lied
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  Speaker 3: my grandfather when you asked me, and I was like, no,
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  Speaker 3: of course not. My grandmother began to just be more nosy,
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  Speaker 3: more controlling, more inquisitive, and just trying to figure out
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  Speaker 3: what was going on, trying to put the pieces together.
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  Speaker 2: When your grandmother would try to talk about this with
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  Speaker 2: you or ask questions, did it seem like her concern
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  Speaker 2: was the age difference, the fact that he was white,
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  Speaker 2: or something else well both.
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  Speaker 3: I mean her concerns were valid. She had valid concerns,
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  Speaker 3: no doubt. But to me it didn't seem that way
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  Speaker 3: because I was fourteen.
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  Speaker 1: By the time rumors were flying about April, and cl
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  Speaker 1: April had just realized that she was pregnant. She said,
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  Speaker 1: they hardly ever used contraception.
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  Speaker 2: What was your understanding about sex leading to pregnancy? Was
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  Speaker 2: it like you understood that if you have sex unprotected
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  Speaker 2: it could absolutely lead to pregnancy.
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  Speaker 4: It wasn't anything that I really thought about.
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  Speaker 3: It was I was having fun, I was in love,
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  Speaker 3: it was a relationship. It was a sense of belonging.
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  Speaker 3: So the fact that just lay out the plan of
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  Speaker 3: if I have unprotected sex, I'll get pregnant. There was
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  Speaker 3: no thought process involved. There was no dots to put together.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not surprising that as a teenage girl that
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: would be the perspective. I'm curious about Clinton's perspective as
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  Speaker 2: a twenty nine year old man who already had two children. Ye,
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  Speaker 2: did he ever raise any concerns about it?
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  Speaker 4: Never?
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  Speaker 3: Not once?
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  Speaker 2: So when did you realize I'm pregnant?
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  Speaker 3: I just had a feeling like after this particular time,
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  Speaker 3: it just said, you know, I'm pregnant to myself. You know,
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  Speaker 3: I just had a different feeling after this particular time
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  Speaker 3: that we had sex.
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  Speaker 2: When you told Clinton, hey, I think I might be pregnant.
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  Speaker 2: What was his reaction to that?
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  Speaker 3: It was actually not let's get rid of it. Let's
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  Speaker 3: side it. It was like, okay, you know, it will
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  Speaker 3: just add it to the family.
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  Speaker 2: And did you ever consider telling your grandparents about the pregnancy.
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  Speaker 3: No, never considered it whatsoever, because they had already by
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  Speaker 3: the time the town had begun to whisper and just
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  Speaker 3: things evolved. I mean, they were definitely dead set against it,
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  Speaker 3: as they should have been. My mother had me when
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  Speaker 3: she was sixteen. She wanted to have an abortion. They
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  Speaker 3: didn't think that she was old enough to make those decisions.
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  Speaker 3: My grandparents were now in their sixties, almost seventies or so.
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  Speaker 3: They said they were too old to raise any more kids.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't want them to raise my child. I wanted
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  Speaker 3: to be the parent that I didn't have. So that
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  Speaker 3: was the whole plan. If I'm pregnant, I'm keeping it,
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to raise it. I'm going to have the
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  Speaker 3: life that I didn't have as far as the two
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  Speaker 3: parent household and all of this, so I wouldn't have
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  Speaker 3: told them. Once they said, you know, if you're pregnant,
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  Speaker 3: you got two options. We would either have him arrested
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  Speaker 3: for Satuary rate or force you to have an abortion.
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  Speaker 3: The suspicions became more strong. My grandmother was starting to
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  Speaker 3: sneak in, look at my sanitary past, look to see
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  Speaker 3: how many I had used. When you're raised by someone,
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  Speaker 3: when you're in the household, you know what you know,
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  Speaker 3: All says.
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  Speaker 1: She never admitted to her grandparents that she was pregnant,
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  Speaker 1: but it became clear that her grandmother strongly suspected it.
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  Speaker 1: She also made her opinion known on the subject. Her
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  Speaker 1: grandparents were very against April having a baby at her age.
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  Speaker 3: So it was just a matter of you can't keep
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  Speaker 3: it because it's going to be one more thing onto us.
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  Speaker 3: They felt like it was going to fall back on them.
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  Speaker 3: So that's why that will he'll bent on we're having
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  Speaker 3: him locked up, or you're having an abortion because we
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: just can't take of another child at this age.
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  Speaker 1: And have you heard them talk about that decision of
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  Speaker 1: your mom when she was sixteen wanting an abortion and
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: your grandparents kind of convincing her not to what had
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: they sort of talked to you about that.
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  Speaker 3: I knew that story, and I think subconsciously I always
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: felt unwanted. Even though I had a good upbringing, I
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: belonged the fact that my biological mode didn't want me, didn't.
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: Want to raise me.
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  Speaker 3: For whatever reason, I felt unwanted, and so a part
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  Speaker 3: of me wanted to attach to whatever wanted to connect
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: with me, that makes sense, which happened to be him
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: at the time.
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  Speaker 1: And then, had your grandparents laid out any kind of
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: hopes or dreams for you, like as this grandchild that
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: they're raising, was there a different life path that they
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: sort of verbalized for you, Like did they want you
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: to go to college?
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  Speaker 3: I was always a really good student, So whatever I
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: wanted to be, this guy was a limit. Okay, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I do feel like I would have continued to educate
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: myself and go to college and have a successful life,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: you know, had this not happened, it was kind of
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: just expected. It was one of those unwritten rules.
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  Speaker 2: So it sounds like, just so I'm understanding correctly, you
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  Speaker 2: don't tell your grandparents, but your grandmother in particular, how's
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: this sense that you may be pregnant? She's starting to
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: go through your things, see what's missing and what's not
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: that might indicate that you know, you're no longer getting
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: your period. And then she and your grandfather both are
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: making these sort of statements that are like, hey, if
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: this were to be the case, Clinton would be arrested
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: for statutory rape and we would not allow you to
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: raise this child. And so they are making those comments, right, Yes, okay,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to make sure that wasn't something you
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: were anticipating they were seeing, but something they actually said.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: No, you will have an abortion and or we will
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: have him arrested for satutory rate. Those were the two options. MM.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: So now I'm fifteen, I really invested in this man,
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: in this relationship, now this baby, and someone wants to
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: stand in a way of that this life that I
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: feel like I can make for myself, can make a
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: new life. You know, they have, like I said, the
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: two parent household of picket fence. Everything that might biological
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: mother didn't give me. Now, it's not that I wasn't
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: provided for. It's not that I didn't have the picket fence.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: It's just in a different circumstance. Because he was my grandparents.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: They weren't my parents that raised me.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think every child has the right to long
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: for their mother. I think that's a very normal reaction,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: no matter what kind of life you have with your grandparents.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: You know, that sounds very natural to me.
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  Speaker 2: And so do you then tell Clinton about these comments
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: that your grandparents have made.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah? At this point, I feel like he's all I got,
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: you know. I mean my friends from school still knew
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: what was going on just these two girls. But other
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: than that, I mean, he was like everything. He's all
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: that I had to clean on to.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: And what were his reactions to those comments about you
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: will have an abortion or Clinton will be arrested for
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: satutory rate?
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: Well, not anything in particular, but over time, the discussions
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: were we have to do something, like we need to
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: kind of get them off our backs. It's how the
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: discussion began to go.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Had you ever thought or talked with him about just
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: like running away together, or like you leaving your grandparents
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: and going to live with him or something. Yeah.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: I packed a bag once and left it on the
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: back porch and my grandfather found it. It wasn't even
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: a very well thought thought out plan. It was just
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: a change of clothes. In a bag. Once again, that
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: is so not even being at that age.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I think most of us are naive at that age.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he need more to change the clothes to get
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: you through.
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  Speaker 2: And so when did the conversation about, you know, getting
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: your grandparents off your back, so to speak, Like, how
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: did that plan develop?
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: I'd say it probably happened a few months before the
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: actual incident happened.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: It was just to be they were more so.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: My grandfather was the mad a few words, so it
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: was my grandmother was just more vocal, and it was
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: always seemed like she was just constantly nagging. I was
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: always upset every day, you know, and when I was upset,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: that made him upset. And it was just like, we've
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: got to do something. We've got to scare them, get
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: them off our back.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: April was fifteen years old at this point, and she
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: was really angry with her grandparents. April felt like a
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: grown up and she wanted to make her own decisions.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: She was in love with cl and she wanted to
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: have this baby and raise it with him, and she
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: didn't want her grandparents interfering with that. But there was
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: no world in which her grandparents, who were her legal
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: guardians and parents would ever agree to that. And the
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: fact that April even believed that there were was some
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: fairytale path forward in which she could build this happy
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: family with a much older man who was committing a
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: crime speaks to just how young she really was. Even
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: her plan to run away reveals that it was a
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: half packed bag left in plain sight for her grandparents
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: to find. It was an idea but never going to
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: be a reality. Regardless, she felt desperate and out of options.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: Backed into a corner, April was about to make a
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: decision that she would immediately regret that would affect the
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: rest of her life and land her in prison. It
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: was cl April's twenty nine year old boyfriend who first
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: said to April they needed a plan to get April's
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: grandparents off their backs, and it was cl who came
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: up with the plan. The plan was to light April's
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: grandparents home on fire. It was cl who brought a
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: can of gasoline over to April's house.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: We're supposed to set the house on fire, and they're
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: supposed to rush out like a Lifetime movie, and everyone like,
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: he's on the lawn.
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna be on the lawn.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: Everyone is just so, oh, I'm glad everything is okay,
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: and it's gonna be like one of those freak things
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: that kind of just brings everyone to give, like.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: Oh, I'm glad you came.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: You were there to help up my granddaughter, you know,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: that kind of thing. But that totally is not the
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: way it went.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: I think it's important for us to really try to
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: understand where your mindset was at the time. And like,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: I keep going back to that you were fifteen. Yeah,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: but I think that's so important because even the way
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: you describe that, this idea that you have in your
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: head as a fifteen year old, I'm gonna just set
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: the house on fire, They're gonna get out and suddenly
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: they're gonna have their minds changed and they're going to
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: embrace me and my boyfriend. And in your fifteen year
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: old mind, you know you're still going to light their
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: home on fire, which is going to cause damage. Was
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: that a real concept to you? No?
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: Okay, So let's go back to that statement. I'm setting
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: their house on far. That's my home. Also, that's where
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: I grew up and I raised so I didn't even
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: think about doing damage to where I'm staying. Like this
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: is my home that I'm about to do damage to
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: my stuff. You know, teenage, you know your stuff is
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: like that's you know, your posters that you have on
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: the wall, your everything you have in place. So I
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: wasn't thinking of destroying my home, my stuff. It was
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: only a matter of scaring them to make them step
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: back a little bit and say, hey, you know, maybe
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: he's not so bad.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting to think about, like, you know, a
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: fifteen year old's mind in that moment, and I think
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: myself at fifteen, or maybe a lot of teenagers in general,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: where it's really hard to conceive of like outcomes, outcomes,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: and how long your future can really be, and everything
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: feels like it's just right in front of you and
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: if you just get through this one thing, then you're
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: on the other side of all your problems. But life
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: is just much longer and more complicated than that. So
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: did you then get any of your belongings out of
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: the house in case this happened or.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: You just know? Not? In my pajamas. I did this
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: in some shorty pajamas. This was September the fourth, so
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: it's warm, white pair of shorty pajamas with polka dots
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: won't forget them.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: And what time of day or night is this?
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: About nine is a clock?
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: And where is Clinton?
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: He's on his way over. He didn't live far, maybe
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: a seven minute drive.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: So it's about nine o'clock at night. Clinton's on his
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: way over, and you're just wearing your pajamas.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: Because we're looking like it's to go to bed, and
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: you know you decided tonight is the night.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Was there a phone call where you decided.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: That maybe maybe a phone call right before?
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: To be clear, cl had brought the gasoline over days before,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: and then on September the fourth, they mutually decided that
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: this was the day April was to set the house
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: on fire. Cel was not there, but again, the whole
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: thing had started as his idea. April didn't think about
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: the possibility of her belongings getting damaged, and she certainly
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: did not imagine anyone getting hurt. What she thought would
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: happen is that there would be a little bit of smoke,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: just enough to scare her grandparents into rushing out of
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: the house onto the lawn, and then she would be
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: there waiting for them on the lawn and they would
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: be so relieved that everything was okay, that they would
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: have this magical change of heart, they would accept her
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: twenty nine year old boyfriend cl and they would celebrate
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: her pregnancy and they could all live happily ever after.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: This is truly how her fifteen year old brain anticipated
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: the events would play out. And so she let the
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: house on fire.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: Pour the gasoline down the hall, struck the match, went outside,
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: and here these flames are. At fifteen, I said, I
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: can't believe this.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: You were just like surprised that the fire was so
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: big so quickly, I think I was.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Just surprised at the fire in general, like you do
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: it and then a lot of times you see this fireworks.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: You might do something and they don't even they feels allowed,
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: it doesn't even happen. But here it is. This is
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: really happening. This smoke is blaring up. This really is happening.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: So I immediately run to the neighbor's house to get
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: them to call the fire apartments in my house on fire.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: So I got them to call the fire department, and
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: then they came over fire apartments not far, you know,
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: maybe three minutes away. Like I said, if things rule,
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: it's right there as your fingertips and so then the
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: trickle down effect comes, but yeah, it was immediate. Try
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: to undo what had just happened.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Where were your grandparents when you were pouring the gasoline?
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: I think my grandmother was helping my grandfather just get
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: ready for bed. Not that either one were non ambulatory
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: or whatever. It was just that he was a little older,
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: so they were in the bathroom. I think.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: So you run to your neighbor's house and you say, hey,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: call the fire department, my house is on fire. Clinton's
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: on his way over. Where are you after telling your
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: neighbors to make that phone call.
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: I'm there at the neighbor's house. And then I go
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: back to the house. My grandmother is out. The fire
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: department's already there, so she's out of the house and
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: they're assessing her. After that, I guess they just take her.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: It was a lot of commotion, you know.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: After that.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: And then does Clinton arrive?
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I said he didn't live far across the bridge,
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: so to speak.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And what did that look like when he arrived? Did
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: you guys talk to each other?
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: He came up to me, and I guess, like any
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: other relationship would be, it would be one of those
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: lean on kind of put your arm around your mate's
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: kind of scenario.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Like comforting you.
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: And did you guys talk about sort of the story
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: that you would tell if anyone asked about the fire.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: No, we didn't think. Me I didn't think. I can
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: only say I thought it was going to play out
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: just the scenario that I mentioned. It was gonna be okay.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: It was not going to get this bad. Nobody was
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: supposed to die, nothing was going to happen. There might
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: be a little damage done, maybe a little smoke damage.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: Everything would be okay, and everyone would get along and
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: be happily ever after.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: Whatever.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: Once that, I think it was ever going to end
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: in anyone's death or in anything that bad.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so at what point did you realize that
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: that wasn't happening in that, you know? Were you wondering
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: where your grandparents were?
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: I found out later I had an aunt, my father's sister,
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: lived not far I went to stay with her, and
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: about two o'clock that morning, maybe one or two o'clock,
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: the deputy came and started to question me, and then
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: he took me down to the police station with other
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: people with SBI, with state detective, with arson specialists, just
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: trying to get all the information.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: What did they ask you and what did you tell them?
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: I think they asked, you know, the usual, do you
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: know what happened? I don't even know if they ever
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: really come out said did you do it? You know
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: it was anybody around When they started asking questions, they
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: already know the answers. And they didn't even question me
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: with an adult present. There was no court case, aunseler juvenile,
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: a guardian present. And I was fifteen at this time,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: and you have all these big law enforcement type people
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: around me, and they said that they were my friends,
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: their opinion of me wouldn't change.
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: They said that I was free to leave.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: All of this came out later they said, so, how
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: at fifteen, how did I know that I was free
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: to leave?
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: Up police station? And where would I have gone? On
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: top of that?
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So when they were asking you questions, what was
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: your response?
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: It was pretty much just not saying a lot. And
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: if it was a question that remotely against me, of
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: course it was a no, I don't know, I didn't
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: do it. Then I would ask where he was, and
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: then I don't think he was locked up initially, but
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: he got locked up later on that night or that
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: day or something. So then I was worried about him,
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: worried about what they were going to ask him, what
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: was going to happen.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: At any point, were you wondering or did you ask
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: where your grandparents were.
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: They had told me?
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: What did they tell you?
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: One of them came and told me that she was
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: in the hospital. They had taken her to the Winston
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: A justph Burn Center. My grandfather died of smoking relation
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: in the house. My grandmother got out and died eight
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: days later from pneumonia.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: And I imagine it's probably like not pleasant at all
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: to revisit, but I'm just curious, you know how that
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: felt to you when you found that out.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: I actually, I think I asked if I could go
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: see her, like I wanted to go see my grandmother,
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: and of course, you know, they politely said no. I
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: don't remember exactly how they worded it, but it was
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: definitely a no.
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: So I was shocked. I was sad.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: And then on top of not having him, I didn't
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: have them. So I'm completely alone in my mind at
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: this point, It's just me and this unborn child.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: How many ones pregnant were you when you were arrested.
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: That's about two months.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: April said that she was taken in for questioning around
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: two am and officially arrested around four or five in
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: the morning. She did not have an adult advocate present
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: or an attorney when she was questioned. She would later
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: find out that Clinton or cl was also arrested. Her grandfather, Aaron,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: died in the fire, and her grandmother, Lily would die
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: a few days later, and now April was looking at
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: navigating a legal system without a trusted adult advocate on
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: her side. She was given a guardian ad litem and
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: a court appointed attorney.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: I was in a juvenile facility at first because of
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: my age, but because of the severity of the crime.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: Once they seemed me going to be tried as an adult,
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: they moved me to the main prison in Raleigh in
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: a place called safe keeping. Because I hadn't gone to
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: court yet. The court appoint an attorney. But where I
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: was from Wilks to Rawleigh before they redid the roads
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: was probably about close about two hours fifteen minutes, maybe
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: two hours thirty minutes. I spent three hundred and thirty
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: four days in safe keeping prior to trial. He came
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: to visit me twice because they said it was a
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: hardship on him to come and visit me. He comes
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: and brings me a plea bargain, asking me to plead
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: guilty to two counts of first three murder and the
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: other charges which consisted of conspiracy and arson. He would
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: get them thrown out.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: You know, at that age, what did you make of
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: everything you were hearing? I know it was a long
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: time ago, but do you feel like you were able
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: to process?
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: Oh?
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: Of course, not, of course not.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I had seen the inside of
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: a courtroom, like had I mentioned before, but not to
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: that degree. I having a larcenary charge as much different
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: than a murder charge. The severity of it. These lives
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: are lost. So not only am I having to now
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: navigate through the court system by myself, I'm also completely alone.
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: I'm grieving the death of my parents.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: I'm grieving and not understanding the lack of communication that
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: I'm having with this boyfriend that I have. And now
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: I have this child that's growing inside of me. My
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: hormones are changing, my body is changing. I don't have
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: anyone to talk to about all this. So all of
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: this is going on at the age of fifteen.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: It's a lot, Yeah, it was a lot.
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: April spent nearly eleven months in a facility waiting to
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: find out what would happen to her, and she says
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: her attorney only visited her three times. The reason he
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: gave for his absence was that April had been moved
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: to a facility nearly two hours from Raleigh, and the
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: reason she was moved was because, even though she was
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: just fifteen, she was being charged as an adult, so
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: she was moved to an adult facility. At the time,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: this was becoming more and more common to charge miners
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: as adults. In the nineteen nineties, nearly every state in
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: the US passed laws making it easier to try miners
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: as adults. Sentences got longer and harsher. This was driven
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: in part by a nationwide panic that young people were
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: becoming violent and more dangerous. A term was even coined,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: super predator. That theory has since been widely discredited and
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: heavily criticized as racist, But the consequences didn't just disappear.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Once someone is sent to prison, it's incredibly hard to undo,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: and to this day, there are many people still incarcerated
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: for crimes they committed as miners during that era. It
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: was now nineteen ninety two and April was still waiting
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: for her court date when she gave birth.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: That's so weak before your due date, you have to
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: say in the infirmary. And I had this older roommate
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: and I just started hurting April nineteenth. I had had
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: false contractions before that, and once again being not even
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: my do date was April twenty fifth, so I had
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: had some gas and Braxton Hicks prior to that. So
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: anything other than that, I was like blowing it off.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: And it was something different about this morning. I was
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: just walking. It was April nineteenth, Sunday morning. I was
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: walking up down the hall and the lady said, honey,
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: I think I said, it's just gas. I don't want
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: to bother anybody, and I didn't want to have to
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: be shackled transported to the hospital and then you have
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: to sit around all the free world people and here
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: you are shackling, everybody looking at you any time you
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: got to the doctor. That's what it looks like. And
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: as much as people don't like to stare, they stare.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: And so I just didn't feel like going through that
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: and being pregnant this particular date. So I'm walking in
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: this Lady said, honey, I think this gas is getting regular.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: I said, always nothing. So they took me up to
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: the machines, and surely enough, my contractions are five minutes apart,
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: and these two guards they take you out shackled. Normally
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: wat chain, but I was too big for the waist chain,
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: so my legs are shackle my hands to shackle. So
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to get to the car and I'm at
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: laborer and so I'm having to stop, and they get yeah,
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: they at.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: That moment, what are we talking about?
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: So I get in the car and take me to
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: the hospital and get out, and I'm trying to walk
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: and I just refuse anything related to me, looking even
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: worse than possible. I don't want the wheelchair, so I'm
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: trying to walk down the hall and trump having to
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: stop and get me hooked up. So now my contractions
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: are less than five minutes apart. I'm three centimeters dilated,
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: and they're like, ma'am, you about to have this baby.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: We left about eight o'clock that morning. It was too
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: close to me giving birth to get me pave medas,
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: so they said he would have been born sleepy. So
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: they hooked me up and I'm pushing. And of course
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: these two guards, which the two guards that took me out,
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: were not the worst of the two guards, thankfully. They
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: were some that had been around for a while, so
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: they were more of a motherly type and had probably
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: been out and seen. I don't know how many pregnancies
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: and procedures as far as hospitals are concerned. And it's
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: in fifty two that morning. Just didn't let me. Yeah,
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: from eight o'clock we leave, it's in fifty two. That's
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: how long it took. So wow, Easter Sunday morning.
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: You must have really tolerated a lot of labor on your.
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: Own, apparently.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: So I thought it was gas because the midwife told
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: me I was due to twenty fifth.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: They're the doctors. They're supposed to know what they're talking about.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: You're fifteen, You're like, I'm doing the twenty fifth. I'm
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: giving birth the twenty fifth.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: If it's not the twenty fifth, it's just gas, don't
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: bother me.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: And so then when someone is in prison and give
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: us birth, you know, did you get to spend any
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: time with your baby back?
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: Then? If you didn't have a sea section or any complications.
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: You could stay on the third day. So I stayed
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: two days, and on the third day the person who
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: was a family friend at the time came to get him.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: But now it's basically outpatient. You have it. If nothing's
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: going on, they sends you right back the next day.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: Don't give you anything but some cabbage leafs.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: What is the cabbage leaf.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: To dry the milk up? Like, there's no Yeah, because
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: you can't nurse. I didn't start because I knew that
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: I wasn't going to be able to.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: So you were not able to bring your baby back
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: with you. No, you're immediately separated immediately. Yes, like I said,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: it was two and a half days. You know that
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: first day in ten fifty two.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: So I had that day and then the next say,
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: and then the third day, about eight o'clock she was
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: coming to get him, and I was going back as
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: if nothing ever happened. So now I get the waste
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: shame now because my stomach is done. So you've just
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: given birth, and here I am waste shame shackle shuffling
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: back to where I came from.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's impossible to imagine what that would
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: feel like, especially at such a young age.
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, very empty, very alone, because at least it's nothing else.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: I had this little baby inside me to talk to.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, then you go on to be sentenced after this.
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: Yes, this is in August.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Eventually, April's attorney did visit her and he brought her
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: a plea deal. April says that when her attorney told
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: her to take the deal, she took the deal.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: So he brought me a plea. He said that if
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: I went to court to trial, it would be a
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: waste of the taxpayer's time and money. So he coerced me.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: Can me to sign this plea bargain pleading guilty to
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: two council first three murder. Now that's how it's worded.
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: That's what said.
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: So when I go to court, it takes a couple
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: of days. We had some character witnesses for the state.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: The two friends that I mentioned, my little high school friends.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: They were trying to be my character witness and my
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: stepmom they were for me, and here comes the state.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: There were some people I think my grandfather's nephew, gosh,
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: maybe one other person of course, trying to paint me.
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: Is this spool Brad that had everything that was just
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: you know, had everything she needed. How can this happen?
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: And then the DA says, it's not burger king. She
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: shouldn't have a two for one deal. Never forget that.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: So the judge decided to sentence me to life. And
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: then he says, and at the exploration of this, another
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: life sentence. So he sentenced me to two consecutive life terms,
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: which in essence, they didn't want me to get out.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Ever, how did that feel sitting there hearing that?
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: When he said the first life sentence I understood and
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: then the next one, So in my mind I was like,
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: am I gonna die?
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: Come back?
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: You know? I understood the word consecutive, and I was
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: just thinking, how am I gonna die?
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: Come back?
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: So's you know, that part I didn't really get. That's
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: you know, when they stack them on, they have no
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: intention for you ever to see the light of day.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: But it kind of speaks to again, like the understanding
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: of a fifteen year old. It doesn't really sound like
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: the weight of like what a real entire lifetime spent
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: in prison would mean versus this question of like how
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: does that work? Two lifetimes? You know? Yeah, how am
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: I gonna die and come back. It's like still feels
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: like it's not really real.
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because, like I said, if they just said life,
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: we understand that everyone understands. Okay, life, And then they
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: said and then life after the exploration of the next
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: And that's how I was worded, and I was.
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: Thinking, how was it possible?
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: What does that mean?
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: And back whenever your attorney said to plead guilty to
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: these two charges, was there any conversation with him about
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: what that sentencing option might look like.
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: No, they didn't word it as an open plead. He
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: just worded it as if you plead guilty to this,
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: we'll get rid of the rest of these, which he
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: said could have led it to additional life sentences. That
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: was up to the judges discretion to run them consecutively occurrently.
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: That was totally up to the judge. That was never
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: discussed prior to.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: How long were these meetings that you had with him.
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: As already not more than an hour or so, Like
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: I said, he in three hundred and thirty four days,
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: fifteen year old now sentenced to a life sentence facing
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: two counts of first green murder. That even said that
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: the SBI or whatever book the trial courts before even
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: kind of threatened me with the death penalty, you know,
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: before all that. So they wanted to make sure they
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: laid out all the harsh severities that could happen, never
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: once trying to address the root of the issue. Never
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: the psychological evaluation that was denied, the change of venue.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: Everything happened in the same county where everything that was denied.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Motion to suppress the statement that they obtained with only
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: adults present, with no court counselor legal guardian present, was denied.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: All of those motions were denied.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then to think that, you know, I'm not
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: an attorney, but I would imagine at least now, and
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: like today, you have a fifteen year old who's been
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: groomed and coerced by a man twice her age to me,
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: who sort of plants this idea. Was that ever even
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: something you and your attorney discussed.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: Never, never, And that seems like it's one of the
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: more obvious things when I only think of it this way.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: Was I coerced by my boyfriend? I was then coerced
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: by the attorney because it would have been a hardship
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: on him. He would have had to put more effort
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: into putting this trial together.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how many years did you then spend in prison
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: and when do things begin to change.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: I spent a total of thirty one and a half
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: years and six days in prison. I would say about
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: seven years prior to my release, awareness of juveniles being
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: excessively sentenced began to be aware. There was a law
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: that came in called Raise the Age, which didn't directly
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: affect me, but once again it brought awareness of these
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: sixteen seventeen year olds should not be made to be
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: sentenced in the same guidelines that you would an adult.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: So that kind of inadvertently started bringing some aware us
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: as people started hearing about my case, because I would
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: write anyone, I would write any attorney, any social media anything,
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: especially like about the last three years before I got out,
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: different podcasts, different interviews, just like I said, anyone, And
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: as they knew someone, they would reach out to that someone,
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: And so the advocates begin to kind of all band
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: together and say, listen, we want this girl out. You know,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: she needs a chance. About a year before I got out,
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: Governor Cooper put in a committee called the Juvenile Sentencing
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: Review Board that started reviewing the cases of those of
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: us who were under the age of eighteen, and there
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: was about three hundred or so of us.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one, then North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: convened a committee. This was following a recommendation from his
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Task Force for Racial Equity and Criminal Justice. At the time,
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: the governor is quoted to have said, developments and science
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: continue to show fundamental differences between juvenile and adult minds.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: The committee was tasked with reviewing cases of people who'd
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: been tried as adults when they were still miners and
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: who'd served at least twenty years of their sentences. It
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: also focused in part on rehabilitation. They looked at whether
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: individuals had taken significant steps to change during their time
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: in prison, and.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: Out of that along vetting process, which you looked at
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: the infractions, you looked at the home plan, the accomplishments,
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: the things that you had done, What would you do
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: upon your release and all of these things coupled together.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: There were three of us released March twenty fourth, twenty
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: twenty two. I had served the long case.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: I did want to ask what happened those years in
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: prison as far as who was taking care of your
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: son or were you able to see him or stay
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: in contact with him at all?
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: No, there was a program in place. You move around
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: is that population increases, prisons grow and were shifted around.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: But I was in the same spot for eighteen and
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: a half years. And with that, there's a program at
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: the main prison called match and Match stays for mothers
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: and their children. Now, the woman that raised my son,
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: for the most part, I was able to communicate with him.
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: She had other children and other responsibilities and other myths
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: as life happens, So there was a period of time
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: about four years I wasn't able to hear from him.
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: But still that's better than some who never are able
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: to talk to their children. So for the most part,
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: I was able to see and communicate and talk with him.
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: When he turned eighteen, he came and he's been by
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: my side ever since. With that, when he turned eighteen,
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: he joined the military and he's also been connected with them.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: I imagine that was very difficult. Were you able to
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: place him with someone that you knew?
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the only one of my mother's friends that didn't
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: get into ty. I had known her all my life, and.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: So this is the person that raised your son.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, you grew up, you know, went from a teenager
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: to an adult in prison, be able to you know,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: continue your education during that time, or what did you
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: end up focusing on while you were there that kind
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: of helped you get through.
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: I wanted to be a mom, you know, I wanted
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: to be a hands on mom, regardless of how long
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: that took me. And I felt like education was one
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: of the ways if I could get inside of their head,
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: if I can understand my case, then perhaps I would
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: be able to get a release. The educational opportunities are
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: few and far between, and if you have a long sentence,
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: they won't allow you to go to school because they
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: said you'll be wasting a taxpayers time and money because
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: you'll never be released to use the education. So a
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: lot of the college courses they don't allow people with
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: long sentences to get the free education. So you either
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: have to get some sponsors from the outside, save up
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: your money, and you know, a lot of people don't
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: have people from the outside. I didn't have anybody from
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: the outside either. I was only fifteen, so I just
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: kind of would get money here and there. People might
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: hear about my case, you know, send me twenty bucks
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: here and there, and then over time I began to
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: get some people in my life, but initially it was
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: just me. Ninety seven, there was an attorney who tried
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: to handle a habeas corpus case of mine. She couldn't,
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: but she always believed in my case. She always wanted
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: to do something if there was everything that a last
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: change had turned about. And we're still friends to this day.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: I actually spent the first ninety two days of my
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: free world life at her house. So she opened her
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: home to me, and you know, she's been the best
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: friend to me ever. I knew her before whenever her
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: career was just starting, before her children were born, before
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: she was married, and she's still around. And there's another
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: lady I met along the way. I've known now about
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: about nights years.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: I love that people on the outside were finding your
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: case and feeling compelled and reaching out to you.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Just offering hope so huge in that position.
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: It's valuable.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: And so you pursued an education, even staring down to
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: consecutive life sentences.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I would just pick up on what I could
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: along the way, And once I got out, I went
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: to the community college to finish my Associates degree because
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: I always wanted to finish school. School was always my thing.
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: Education was something that they could never take away from me.
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: And once again it was my armor. It was my
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: armor against the staff mistreating us. I read their policy.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: You know, they tried to do something that was illegal,
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: I would throw.
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: It back at them.
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: Im me was always you know, go ass April and
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: then I got a pair of legal certification. I was
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: able to obtain that and I just wanted to help
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: my case as well as you know, those around me.
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: So I thought if I got in their heads, if
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: I think like them, then I could think my way out.
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: I got out twenty two August of that year.
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: I started school, finished my associate by twenty three and
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: November of last year, I walked with my Bachelor of
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: Science and Criminal Justice.
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: That's what I went on to do.
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: I went online and finish up my degree and I
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: chose criminal justice.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: I'm now in school for social work. My current role
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: is a peer support specialist. That's someone with lived experience
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: that works alongside of people that are on their recovery
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: journey from mental health, substanceutes, disorder, past justice involvement, things,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: of that nature, just getting them back on track. So
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: that's the work that I do. Absolutely love it. I mean,
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: you meet people where they are and you help them.
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: Along the way.
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: You know, you don't judge it, just try to help
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: them and get them past their mess.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so great. What is your relationship with your
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: son link today?
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: Colt and I are very close. He thinks he's my dad,
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: so he tells me what I should do, you know,
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: what I should try these days.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: That's nice. Yeah, that's sweet to hear.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: I'm wondering when was the last time you had any
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: contact with Clinton?
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: He died about eight years in due to complications due
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: to hypocritasy, so he only served about eight years of
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: his sentence before he died.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Were you in contact with him at.
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: All the whole time?
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: You were? Ye, the whole time, And what was that
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: relationship like after you were both in prison, We were.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: Still very cordial and we co parented. So when she
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: brought him to see him, she brought him to see
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: both of us. Okay, so he had a relationship with
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: him at least for eight years. And what was his
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: sentence that he received two counts of accessory before the
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: fact of first three murder, conspiracy to commit arson, and conspiracy.
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: To commit.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So was he looking at a lifetime sentence as well?
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but not as long as mine, right, because it's
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: more of an excessive amount of years than life.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: Did your feelings towards him ever change? Like? Did you
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: ever feel resentful of him? Or did you feel on
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: prettic good terms with him until he died.
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: Resentful? See? That was kind of you know.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: Can I resent him for giving me the most wonderful gift?
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: Can I resent him for putting me in a best situation?
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: You know, it's kind of I can't say that I
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: did only because of my son, So you kind of
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: have to weigh both sides of it, and the fact
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: that I have a wonderful son outweighs everything else.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: April, what do you hope will come from sharing your story?
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: I hope that the world will know that change is possible,
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: everyone deserves the second chance, rehabilitation is real. And then
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: I want people to know what really happens behind the
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: criminal justice system. Don't look at ev that is so forfetched.
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: If you really want to know what's going on, you
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: ask someone like me and don't judge them by what
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: black and whites is, don't judge them by their past,
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: judging by who they are and who they've become, not
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: what they were portrayed to be.
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: I was kind of a heavy one.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like I think, oh, wow, that was a
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: tough story to hear in ways, and then I'm like,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: but she had to live that.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. She's also very inspiring the amount of education that
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: she's done, that she completed in prison and that she's
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: done since. She's very driven and has really turned her
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: life around and is like doing some really cool things.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, just her pursuit of education in pre
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: when there was quite literally no end in sight for
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: her of being there. I mean I thought so much
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: about that, especially because she didn't have anyone on the
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: outside rallying for her. You know, her grandparents were of
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: course killed as a result of the fire. She didn't
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: have a mom that was involved in her life in
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: a healthy way, that was outside trying to support her.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: She had the friend of her mom's who took in
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: her son, but of course that person is you know,
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: busy in their own life and caring for april son,
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: which was a huge undertaking, I'm sure. And when that
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: April really appreciated. Yeah, appreciates probably still to this day.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: But to think of finding the will power to spend
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: your money on education that you might never get to
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: use outside of prison, Yeah, I mean that's huge. And
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: I think where I wonder if April, being incarcerated from
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: such a young age am gave her that sense of
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: not knowing even though she was going to be sentenced
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: to two life sentences, like that same feeling of well,
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: how am I going to die and come back? She
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: was so young that it was like almost like when
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: you're that young, you can't understand it, and so she
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: just continued on like someday she would be released.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's obviously a huge part of the story. And
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: we've talked about this on the show before, is this
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: idea of charging a minor as an adult and that
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: that was way more prevalent in the nineties. But there's
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: such ripple effects to all of this stuff. So there
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: are still a lot of people in prison serving very
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: harsh sentences who were sentenced as miners. And it's tricky
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: to talk about, right because April started a fire that
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: killed two people to people that she loved, and she
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: was mourning them but she did do that, right, and
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: so it's this question of is she a victim or not?
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: But she served what thirty years? Yeah, that and was
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: looking at a whole life sentence. The thing is, when
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: you're that young, when you're fifteen fourteen, fifteen sixteen, and
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: you're charged with something like a life sentence or thirty
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: to forty years, I think we have to ask ourselves
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: the question, what good is that? What is this doing
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: for that person? For our society? They're so young, like, yes,
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: there needs to be some action taken, right. I'm not
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: suggesting that she didn't face any consequences for this, but
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: you're sort of just throwing a person away at that point.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: They're young, impressionable, They have such a chance to turn
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: around and do something with their lives, and you're just
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: taking that away. And I don't know that that helps anybody.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, especially hearing from April about how her
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: own mother, not her grandmother, but her mother would sort
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: of help her sneak around with cl and you know,
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: to think of a mother doing anything to help that
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: relationship and not stop it, I think just shows how
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: layered people are. You know, April did love her grandparents
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that there are complex feelings around not being
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: able to be raised by your own biological mother. And
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the statistics are, but I imagine that
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: if you have a parent who is in and out
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: of prison, you're more likely to enter the same cycle.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: And when I think about how young she was, I think,
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: you know what, Yeah, I was never in that exact situation,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: but I was so impressionable at that age, like I
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: wanted desperately to be liked by my friends, and I
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: just happened to live in a community where mostly everybody
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: got along, and I had a peaceful childhood and I
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: had very involved parents. But if I didn't have involved parents,
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: it wouldn't have taken. I don't think very much for
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: me at fourteen fifteen to be influenced, to be influenced, yeah, totally.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: And that's a whole other part of this case that
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: I think we were both surprised to hear never even
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: came up with her attorney, the fact that her boyfriend,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: Cil was twenty nine years old, twice her age, and
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: it was his idea to come up with the planet,
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: was his idea to start the fire, And also he
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: was the one really that had the most to lose
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: because her grandparents were threatening to have him charged with rape. Yeah,
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: and to think, you know, a twenty nine year old's
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: view of consequences and the world, he had to know
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: what a house fire could result in serious harm or death.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: There's no way he couldn't have There's no way he
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: couldn't have known that. And you have to imagine, well,
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: he didn't set the fire. He was sure to ask
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: her to set the fire. And on top of that,
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: it's like just thinking of the age gap and the
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: way that he impacted her life so quickly he comes
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: into her life. They start, you know, I don't even
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: really want to call it dating, this massive age gap
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: that should never have happened.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: She becomes pregnant and she's not using contraception. As an
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: adult man who has two children is fully aware about
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: the consequences of this right.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: And it's like he just lets her be in this
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: really vulnerable situation. Any adult knows that for a teenage
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: girl to raise a baby wouldn't have severe consequences for
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: her life. It doesn't mean that, you know, I'm taking
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: a stance on whether someone should or shouldn't do that,
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: but continuing your education would be a billion times harder,
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: you know, making money supporting yourself while you're taking care
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: of a child. Meanwhile you're not married to this person, right, Yeah,
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: devastating consequences as a result of this relationship, which even
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: in the interview, I feel like, you know, that was
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: one thing you and I were I think on the
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: same page on and pressing April about a little bit
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: was like calling it a relationship is a bit off
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: feeling for me, Like this was grooming. Yeah, you have
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: a twenty nine year old man who groomed a young
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: teenage girl.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: There's a very real power imbalance there, a massive power imbalance.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: You know. It's tricky because it's like also it's important
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: for us when we're interviewing someone for them to have
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: their truth be heard. And I think April, you know,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: she did acknowledge that she called it grooming. She also,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: you know, she was like, well, I'm happy to have
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: my son and yeah, I get that, and she was
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: on good terms with him until he died, So in
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: some ways I being l yeah, L yeah, sorry. So
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: I think that she feels conflicted about it, like she
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: definitely sees it as a real relationship where she was
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: in love, but she also has acknowledged like that there
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: was grooming.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know the fact that he was white
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: and she is black and in the South. I mean,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: it was easy to understand why the reason they were
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: sneaking around would be pretty convoluted mm hmm, and maybe
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: hard for her to understand at that age.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: But even that, she's like, looking back, he tried to
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: put that on me and say I was the one
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: who was making them sneak around. Yeah, is so conniving
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: because no, bro, like.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: He doesn't want to be caught with a fourteen year old.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: No illegal, like you're going to prison. Yeah, but like
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: you're conveniently leaving that out of the narrative. That's just
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: like it's hard for me to sort of escape by there. Yeah,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: that one was tough. Yeah, it was tough, but you know,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: eventually April was released and yeah, it took over thirty years,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: but it happened. And I think that that was the
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: absolute right call. I mean, when we talk about life
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: sentences for minors, I think I personally just question that.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: I don't think we do right by people when we
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: do that. And I think that she probably had, you know,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: adults in her life that on some level failed and
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: here we are. Yeah, but she was released and I
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: asked her a little bit about what it felt like
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: to sort of step out of prison after decades, and
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: it was nice. She said that she was able to
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: stay with a friend and she slept really well the
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: first night in a real bed, and now she feels
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: like she has a great circadian rhythm, whereas you don't
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: get options in prison about when you wake up and
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: when you go to bed. Right, she wakes up to birds.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: Chirping, And I think it's a reminder of the little
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: things that are really easy to take for granted, but
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: when you lose your freedom, you really lose everything.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And one of the things that she said, and
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: I don't think it made it into the episode, but
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: we have actually heard from other people we've interviewed to
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: have spent time in prison and then been released, is
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: that there can be this gap of information that you
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: experience when you get out of prison. So she was
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: incarcerated in the nineties and was released in twenty twenty two.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: So even thinking about technology and how different it is
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: in that time period, completely different world, right, she came
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: out to a world where everyone is using smartphones and
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: texting and you know where AI is a thing like yeah,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: And so she talked about there being some hurdles with technology,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: just feeling like everyone has this literacy around this thing
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: that I don't have, but that you know, just learning
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: over time how to adjust to those things.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And we record remotely almost all of the time,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: and she was able to just get on the call
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: at the video call and do it and set up
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: her local recording and it's really impressive. I mean, we
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: all experienced this evolution of technology. We went from landline
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: to cordless landline, to little Nokia phones to motorill eraser
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: I think, yep, yep, and now here we are with
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: like everything at our fingertips. She talked about, you know,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: current events. You hear a little bit in prison, but
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: you can't stay up to speed in prison on everything
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: going on in the world, right, and it would be
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: wild to think about, like you go through nine to eleven,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: but you're in prison and your days look exactly the same.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. So it's quite an adjustment. But I
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: was really grateful to April for telling us her story,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: especially because it's one that I don't think is easy
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: to look back on for many reasons for her, But
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that she got out and that she's doing well.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that she has a relationship with her son,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: a good relationship.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: That was like a really sweet moment in the.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Story to learn that.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for listening. We'll be back next week. If
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: you have a story for us, we would love to
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactly rightmedia
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram at
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: the Knife Podcast or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith and me Paytia Eating.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: Our producers are Tom Brie Fogel and Alexis Samarosi.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Fogel.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.