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Perfect Prep · The Talent Trade

• 0:07
  Stephanie Maas: Hello, and welcome to The Talent Trade.
• 0:11
  This is Stephanie Maas with ThinkingAhead Executive Search.
• 0:15
  Super excited to be here today with one of our rock stars from
• 0:20
  the nonprofit team. Heather Campbell. Heather, welcome.
• 0:24
  Heather Campbell: Thank you.
• 0:25
  Stephanie Maas: Go ahead and tell us a little bit about you,
• 0:28
  and anything you think our listeners would want to know.
• 0:31
  Heather Campbell: My name is Heather Campbell, I live in
• 0:33
  Minneapolis, Minnesota, born and raised Minnesotan. I've been
• 0:37
  with thinking ahead for a little over five years now, sort of in
• 0:41
  April of 2019. I'm on the nonprofit team. And I focus on
• 0:46
  working with nonprofits that really work with human rights,
• 0:49
  equity and equality, as well as the social impact spaces.
• 0:54
  Stephanie Maas: Well welcome. We're super excited to have you
• 0:56
  here. And another thing that I'm super excited about is kind of
• 1:00
  your topic I remember many years ago, learning from kind of one
• 1:04
  of thinking ahead gurus and him saying at one point that at the
• 1:09
  end of the day, if a search is meant to come together, it will
• 1:13
  with or without us. And he shared that to kind of take the
• 1:17
  pressure off, especially because when he shared it with me, quite
• 1:20
  frankly, I was rather new to the practice. But at the same time,
• 1:24
  he also said that, hey, when you have opportunity to earn your
• 1:29
  keep in a search, kind of take it serious and make sure that
• 1:32
  you really are if you're going to be a part of it, make sure
• 1:34
  you really are earning your keep as a facilitator of that
• 1:39
  process. And that's something I think that we're going to talk a
• 1:42
  lot about today with you.
• 1:44
  Heather Campbell: And I love that I think that prepping and
• 1:46
  debriefing the candidates and the clients during this part of
• 1:49
  the process, they probably do great without us. But at the
• 1:51
  same time, it's that like additional sort of icing on the
• 1:55
  cake to make sure stuff goes really well. I'm also a big
• 1:58
  process driven person. So if this is something that could
• 2:00
  manage in that process, I love it.
• 2:03
  Stephanie Maas: And you know, it's funny too, because through
• 2:05
  the years, the folks that we represent both on the client
• 2:08
  side and the candidate side, they're not professional
• 2:11
  interviewers. So I think this is an area where in terms of
• 2:15
  prepping and debriefing them, we have a huge opportunity to make
• 2:19
  a difference. Because oftentimes people are incredible what they
• 2:22
  do, but they don't know how to advocate for themselves. They
• 2:25
  don't, you know, hey, it's been five years since I interviewed
• 2:28
  last, or I'm usually when doing the interviewing. So I think
• 2:31
  this is a super valuable topic. So jump right in, walk us
• 2:34
  through your philosophy a little bit. And then just walk us
• 2:38
  through how you do what you do.
• 2:39
  Heather Campbell: And so from a philosophy standpoint, prepping
• 2:42
  and debriefing is is just part of our process in general,
• 2:45
  right. So it's not necessarily this big new thing or something
• 2:50
  that I'm sure a lot of search firms do. But I think that we do
• 2:53
  it really, really well. And I enjoy it, it's actually my
• 2:56
  favorite part of my job. Because I get to build stronger
• 3:00
  relationships with both, you know, the client, the hiring
• 3:04
  manager, maybe some folks that haven't met along the way in the
• 3:07
  process, as well as then those candidates that obviously
• 3:11
  there's only one person that typically gets the job, you get
• 3:14
  to still build relationships with four or five, six other
• 3:16
  people that you never know, throughout your career, many may
• 3:19
  bump into again. So I was going to kind of go over, you know,
• 3:23
  break it down, what do I do with the clients and then break it
• 3:26
  down? And you know, probably a little bit longer. What do I do
• 3:28
  with the candidates? As far as the prep goes?
• 3:31
  Stephanie Maas: Can we just stop there for a second, because I
• 3:32
  want to just spend a minute on the value that you think this
• 3:35
  brings from a holistic perspective, this was something
• 3:38
  I was taught very early on in my search career thinking ahead was
• 3:41
  to prep the clients. And yet, as I've been out, you know,
• 3:44
  networking with other recruiters attending recruiter events. This
• 3:49
  is a topic that I'm constantly surprised at how many folks
• 3:53
  don't do this. So I'd love to hear from your perspective, kind
• 3:58
  of why your dogged about making this a part of your process.
• 4:02
  Heather Campbell: It's a super important piece of the process.
• 4:04
  So that again, I can kind of know what's going on and manage
• 4:07
  how they're going to work. But again, to your point,
• 4:10
  oftentimes, they're great at what they do, but they are not
• 4:13
  professional interview errs. And so being able to make sure that
• 4:17
  they know what questions they're going to ask, and how to sort of
• 4:21
  handle themselves in that interview. Because, frankly,
• 4:24
  just as much as they are interviewing the candidates, you
• 4:28
  know, those candidates are interviewing them as well to
• 4:30
  make sure that this is a good fit. So being able to just talk
• 4:33
  through logistics, but also how to be in the interview and how
• 4:37
  to sort of woo the candidates to the opportunity as well. Make
• 4:42
  sure that they have a good experience. And then I think
• 4:45
  from an equity perspective, it's really important that every
• 4:48
  candidate is having a similar experience and being able to
• 4:52
  have them present themselves in a way that you know, the clients
• 4:55
  can can see that in a very similar fashion like they're
• 4:58
  being able to see every candidate In the same light in
• 5:01
  the same way to be able to evaluate people from an equity
• 5:04
  perspective.
• 5:05
  Stephanie Maas: Do you ever get pushback from clients? How do
• 5:08
  you set it up with the clients that this is going to be a part
• 5:11
  of what you do?
• 5:12
  Heather Campbell: Definitely early on, when we have our
• 5:14
  kickoff call, we talked through the whole process, everything
• 5:18
  that I'm gonna be doing, and then everything that I have, as
• 5:21
  far as an expectation from them, I'm getting some bandwidth off
• 5:24
  their plate by probably helping to manage schedules and get a
• 5:28
  hold on their calendars. So that gets a little buy in because
• 5:31
  they're like, oh, this makes things easy. But then a part of
• 5:34
  that scheduling of interviews, were also just, I just kind of
• 5:38
  assumed that we're going to also schedule the prep call before
• 5:41
  all those interviews happen. So I think I start early with
• 5:44
  talking through that, oftentimes, bIown isn't too
• 5:47
  difficult. But they may need like, I'll tailor the amount of
• 5:50
  prep that I do based on how much they do. So if the interview is
• 5:54
  with HR, first off, they've got their standard list of
• 5:57
  questions, there's maybe a little bit less that I have to
• 6:00
  do. But then oftentimes, we'll get a panel involved. And
• 6:03
  there'll be three or four people from the organization, that they
• 6:06
  value, this idea of having an interview guide in front of them
• 6:10
  being assigned questions, and going through those together to
• 6:13
  say, who's gonna say, what? And does this question make like
• 6:16
  sound like you? Is it something that's kind of authentic to what
• 6:20
  you want to say? And so I would say, it's pretty rare that we
• 6:23
  get any sort of feedback, we do get a lot of feedback on the
• 6:26
  back end. In fact, just recently, I had a whole group of
• 6:29
  a panel say this was the most organized, focused process we've
• 6:33
  ever had, because of just how detailed you were.
• 6:35
  Stephanie Maas: Super cool. And then just just for those of us
• 6:38
  that want, maybe you want to try this, for the first time, help
• 6:41
  alleviate some fear for us. If you do get pushback, saying hey,
• 6:45
  we're good. We don't need that. Thanks. I've held interviews
• 6:48
  before. How do you handle clients that maybe don't buy in
• 6:51
  right away or don't respond positively to your assumptive?
• 6:54
  Hey, we're going to do a client prep here.
• 6:56
  Heather Campbell: I think I would suggest that we try it, I
• 7:00
  think equity, there's a lot of organizations that are starting
• 7:02
  to, you know, sort of start a journey from a diversity, equity
• 7:06
  and inclusion standpoint. And oftentimes, they don't
• 7:09
  understand that that can start all the way at the interview
• 7:11
  process, not just when they are on boarded somebody to make sure
• 7:15
  that they have a good experience with an organization, it is
• 7:18
  essential that everybody is being asked the same questions.
• 7:21
  And that an organization is treating folks with dignity and
• 7:25
  respect through that, instead of just throwing them into an
• 7:28
  interview process, that probably doesn't look very good. And so I
• 7:31
  think being able to educate them on me supporting that part of
• 7:35
  the process typically gets people to sort of say, okay,
• 7:38
  yeah, at least we'll meet with you for a half hour.
• 7:39
  Stephanie Maas: And if I heard you, right, it sounds like the
• 7:41
  way you position it is really that this is in their best
• 7:44
  interest. But even sometimes, so in that language of like, from a
• 7:47
  legal standpoint, I want to set this up to protect you. But
• 7:50
  again, the kudos to you is setting it up in a way that you
• 7:53
  don't get a lot of pushback. Okay, so then you get them on
• 7:56
  there, you're on your schedule, walk us through, what is this
• 7:59
  sound like?
• 8:00
  Heather Campbell: Yeah, with the client prep, it's pretty basic.
• 8:02
  Again, we talked about the scheduling of the interviews and
• 8:06
  put together this interview guide that gets sent over to
• 8:09
  them a few days before the prep, so that everybody involved
• 8:12
  whether it's one person, or four, or five, and a panel gets
• 8:15
  to see it. So everybody involved gets to have a little bit of
• 8:18
  input. So we start off first to talk about logistics. Everybody
• 8:22
  got the calendar invites, what are the goals of the interview?
• 8:25
  Again, it is to evaluate a candidate, but it's also to show
• 8:28
  the candidate a really good experience, because they are
• 8:31
  ultimately evaluating anybody involved in the interview
• 8:34
  process as well. We talked about the fact that salary will not be
• 8:38
  discussed in this part of the interview and the importance of
• 8:41
  that, because that, again, is handled through me. And it's
• 8:44
  something that just doesn't need to muddy the waters or make
• 8:47
  anything kind of feel off when you're talking to those
• 8:50
  questions. And then we do schedule a debrief afterwards.
• 8:53
  So after they've interviewed the candidates that are involved in
• 8:57
  this part, they want to get them all on the phone together again,
• 9:00
  for even a 30 minutes or so to just talk about how did it go.
• 9:04
  Aside from that, though, we are having them fill out fill out
• 9:07
  evaluation forms, either in a matrix form or you know, like a
• 9:10
  Google form, so that they can individually share feedback, and
• 9:14
  then I get that feedback. But then I also want to share it
• 9:17
  kind of from their mouths together later. So I get kind of
• 9:20
  two sides to a really good, deep, like feedback point from
• 9:23
  an individual perspective than then kind of as a group. So the
• 9:26
  client prep is is pretty easy. And you know, very process
• 9:29
  driven. Now the candidate prep, I think there's a little bit
• 9:33
  more emotion, and sort of a deeper field to how to handle
• 9:36
  that. As I said, prepping and debriefing with candidates is
• 9:39
  actually probably my favorite part of the job. But again, it's
• 9:42
  something that I have set the tone for this when I started the
• 9:46
  relationship with the candidate once I've started vetting them
• 9:49
  and I've had multiple conversations with them. I've
• 9:52
  submitted them to the client. I'll similarly, they were asked
• 9:55
  to have an interview, I have told them that if they get that
• 9:58
  interview, they will be prepping and debriefing with me all the
• 10:02
  way through the whole process. So again, kind of trying to
• 10:05
  build that bond and setting up that expectation that, hey,
• 10:08
  we're going to talk a lot, and being able to kind of let them
• 10:11
  know that they will have to share how things went both from
• 10:14
  a logistics standpoint, from an emotional standpoint, and all
• 10:18
  those other elements, which I think is really key to to part
• 10:21
  of that process. So I'll usually schedule a candidate prep, you
• 10:24
  know, 24, to 40 to 48 hours before that candidate has their
• 10:27
  interview, before the prep call, I'll send them an email with
• 10:31
  things like the names of the people that they'll be meeting
• 10:34
  with what their titles are usually a link to their
• 10:37
  LinkedIn. And then we have several good documents that we
• 10:40
  kind of say take it or leave it. But there's a lot of value in
• 10:43
  being able to read these interviews and to support
• 10:46
  yourself through this. So it's a hitting the target during a
• 10:49
  personal interview, answering the tell me about yourself
• 10:52
  question. And then we've got a link regarding the STAR method,
• 10:55
  and how to use that this technique to ace the next job
• 10:58
  interview. I think a lot of times people when they answer
• 11:01
  questions, especially behavioral questions, I talk a lot about
• 11:05
  the situation, the tasks that they had, the actions that they
• 11:08
  took, but they sometimes forget to really like all circle it and
• 11:11
  bring in the results. What happened at the end, and after
• 11:15
  all the work that you did, what were the results. And so the
• 11:18
  that document can be really helpful for folks to sort of
• 11:21
  review and look through, again, these preps give me face to face
• 11:24
  time and just build a better relationship and bond with these
• 11:28
  folks. And ultimately, I want them to trust me through the
• 11:31
  process. Because if we get to a finish line, there's a lot of
• 11:34
  things that we cover that I need them to share and talk me
• 11:37
  through. So again, it's just another face to face meeting
• 11:40
  with them that I feel is really important. Again, every
• 11:43
  candidate usually goes through the same type of crap, we go
• 11:46
  through the same information. And I tell them that you
• 11:49
  probably won't be great in this interview, but it's helping you
• 11:53
  put your best foot forward. And so again, take a look at the
• 11:56
  information that I that I share with you here. So what I get
• 11:59
  them on a prep call, the first question I ask is, has anything
• 12:02
  changed since we last talked behind listening for? Are they
• 12:06
  in other interview processes? Has their enthusiasm level
• 12:09
  gotten higher or lower? At this point in the process? You know,
• 12:12
  how much research have have they done? Just how are they feeling
• 12:15
  in general? Are they somebody who typically kind of is more
• 12:19
  relaxed? You know, are they somebody who gets really anxious
• 12:22
  before an interview, trying to kind of get get in their head a
• 12:25
  little bit around that. And it also lets me sort of see how
• 12:28
  much prep work they've actually done so far, and how much I need
• 12:32
  to kind of push them to continue to do more research or look up
• 12:35
  more stuff? Or or, you know, how do you know the names of the
• 12:39
  people and their titles, and you looked at where they went to
• 12:42
  school, things like that. We'll go through logistics next. So
• 12:45
  whether it's virtual or in person, so So the who, where
• 12:48
  when how, what's the agenda, you know, all those kinds of things
• 12:52
  that just really aware of, of what's happening. And then
• 12:55
  something that I suggest that they do is schedule a call with
• 12:58
  a friend or family member member, somebody they trust 30
• 13:01
  minutes before an interview, somebody that can champion them
• 13:04
  and give them just some love before their interview. But
• 13:07
  sometimes it's not necessary if the person's a little bit more
• 13:11
  relaxed. But if there's any outs of anxiousness, it's a fun
• 13:14
  suggestion to just say, hey, grab a friend and tell them to
• 13:17
  call you or you call them 30 minutes before and say you've
• 13:20
  got this, that or you know, I think a lot of times in thinking
• 13:23
  ahead, we talk about you know, like the power pose or saying in
• 13:27
  front of the mirror and saying you got this, things like that.
• 13:30
  So I encourage people to do that before and planning it before
• 13:33
  the interview. So after we've gone through logistics, we
• 13:36
  talked about the people they'll be meeting with. So what's their
• 13:40
  background? What's their personality? What's their style,
• 13:43
  you know, how do they interview, if you're the first person in an
• 13:47
  interview, versus maybe the fifth person to go through an
• 13:50
  interview, I may know a little less, because I haven't gotten
• 13:53
  feedback from other candidates about how the interview process
• 13:56
  went. But it's, it's still good. I've now talked with those
• 13:59
  clients and the folks that they'll be meeting with because
• 14:03
  I did the client prep. So I've got a little bit more of an
• 14:06
  understanding on you know, who's going to be somebody that's
• 14:09
  going to have more energy, who's going to be somebody that maybe
• 14:12
  asks more questions is the talkative one, the facilitator,
• 14:16
  things like that. So I'll be able to just go through that.
• 14:19
  And I encourage people, I want them to be authentic in
• 14:22
  themselves in an interview process, because that's going to
• 14:25
  be how they show up for work every day. But I think it's also
• 14:28
  super important to balance and match sort of the level of
• 14:31
  energy that the interviewees are giving off. And, you know, if
• 14:34
  they're kind of call calm, cool collected, it's probably more so
• 14:38
  how you should be but if you've got someone who's high energy,
• 14:41
  they don't lean into that and also sort of match that energy.
• 14:45
  So, again, authenticity is really important, but I think
• 14:48
  there's also something to be said about just kind of like a
• 14:51
  self aware understanding of who you're with. Okay, the interview
• 14:54
  questions, you know, what can be expected? What do they need to
• 14:58
  prepare for? I don't actually give them the exact questions
• 15:01
  and the list of things that they're going to say, well,
• 15:04
  we'll talk about the essence of the question and sort of why are
• 15:07
  they asking it? This is the question that you're going to be
• 15:10
  having to talk about ABC topic. And this is why they want to get
• 15:14
  a better understanding of your ability to do this. This isn't
• 15:17
  done to give the candidates the answers, but it allows them to
• 15:21
  just prepare and put their best foot foot forward, I have a
• 15:24
  personal belief that we live in a culture that glorifies fast
• 15:27
  paced, and on the spot decision making, which is necessary, I
• 15:30
  realized that but I think there's also a lot of value and
• 15:33
  strength in allowing people to process and plan. We talked
• 15:37
  about closing the interview. So I'll ask them to, you know, wrap
• 15:40
  up the interview, usually they've asked their questions of
• 15:43
  the client. But before they go, I encourage everybody to sort of
• 15:47
  say some sort of version of of this phrase, thank them comment
• 15:50
  on something that you've learned or something that you're
• 15:53
  grateful for? And then say some version of before I go, Are
• 15:56
  there any last minute hesitations, reservations or
• 15:59
  concerns you have about my candidacy? I don't want them to
• 16:02
  say do you have any last minute questions, it's reservations,
• 16:05
  hesitations or concerns, I feel that this is so important,
• 16:08
  because they do have something they'll probably share it with,
• 16:12
  you now have an opportunity to address it on the spot. The last
• 16:15
  thing I want is for the client to say, Well, they didn't really
• 16:19
  talk about their experience doing this, but they never
• 16:21
  asked, they never got the opportunity to actually like,
• 16:24
  share a little bit more about that. And if it is something
• 16:28
  that maybe it's a weakness that you do have, you still could
• 16:31
  address it and maybe find something that is a you know, a
• 16:34
  skill set that that's very similar, or you're able to, you
• 16:37
  know, sort of just know where they feel that you have
• 16:40
  something that doesn't meet the needs. And again, it's just an
• 16:43
  opportunity to, to address it candid information is really,
• 16:46
  really important. I think it's an old question and allows
• 16:49
  people just some strength at the end to sort of close it up on
• 16:53
  their terms, then we will schedule a debrief with the
• 16:56
  candidate as well. So I want to talk with them, ideally, an hour
• 16:59
  after their interview sometime within that hour, or just
• 17:02
  immediately after. And so we scheduled that for just a 15
• 17:05
  minute thing, Hey, your interviews over, give me a call,
• 17:08
  let's get let's talk about how it went questions that typically
• 17:12
  asked her, you know, logistics, like was everybody on time? Was
• 17:15
  there any tech issues? How did it go? Things like that. And
• 17:18
  then I'll ask tell me very, very broadly, like, how do you feel
• 17:22
  that it went, and some listening for things like, again, enhanced
• 17:25
  enthusiasm, anything that they feel they maybe didn't do? So?
• 17:28
  Well, we'll talk about what did they learn from the interview?
• 17:32
  Were there questions that you told me you wanted to ask? Did
• 17:35
  you get to ask those? And were there additional? Was there
• 17:38
  additional information that that you were able to hear and learn?
• 17:42
  Based on how you're feeling so far? Do you feel like this is a
• 17:45
  job that you can handle? As well as is this something that's
• 17:48
  going to challenge you enough? You know, so where do they kind
• 17:52
  of land with that, based on what they learned about the job? How
• 17:55
  is the synergy with the people that you talk to, especially if
• 17:58
  this is somebody that they would be reporting to or appear? And
• 18:02
  we'll just kind of go through those questions. And again, kind
• 18:05
  of just letting them download on how it went? I asked them about
• 18:09
  that question, how they close the interview? If they did they
• 18:12
  ask it be? Did they have any sort of responses? And then were
• 18:15
  they able to overcome anything? We next then coach them to, of
• 18:18
  course, write a thank you note. But what I would say is based on
• 18:22
  this debriefing with me, is there anything that you and I
• 18:25
  just talked about that you could add and include into a thank you
• 18:29
  note, maybe it's something that you wish you would have
• 18:31
  clarified or something you were really grateful that you learned
• 18:35
  or something that you found as a connection between that that
• 18:38
  candidate or that client and yourself, those are the things
• 18:41
  to add into a thank you note, I feel that these are super
• 18:45
  important, I want you to make it less generic and more personal.
• 18:48
  So again, anything that you may have have connected on, I have
• 18:51
  had many clients tell me that a good thank you note has had a
• 18:55
  candidate rise above others because of the effort that was
• 18:58
  put into a good Sanku no need to do anything to the mail anymore.
• 19:01
  Virtual note is just fine. I get asked that question a lot too.
• 19:05
  You'll probably know if you made it or not sooner than a note
• 19:08
  would get to them in the mail. And then the last part of the
• 19:11
  debriefs that I have is just be really honest about what I'm
• 19:14
  going to be able to have feedback, I never want to over
• 19:17
  promise, a timeframe that I will be able to share news with them.
• 19:21
  And regardless of the decision, I will let them know and
• 19:24
  mechanistic client was able to offer me about how the interview
• 19:27
  went.
• 19:28
  Stephanie Maas: Wow. So now let's talk for just a second
• 19:30
  about the client debrief. Again, I think this is part of it. It's
• 19:33
  like a no brainer, but because so many people just take it for
• 19:36
  granted, it doesn't end up adding anything to the process.
• 19:40
  So walk us through your client debrief.
• 19:42
  Heather Campbell: So again, this is something that we scheduled,
• 19:44
  you know, after all of the interviews for that round, you
• 19:47
  know, so you've got around one interview, anybody that was
• 19:50
  involved with that will schedule that whether it's one person or
• 19:54
  five, and we typically go through each candidate
• 19:56
  separately, just kind of letting them share. How do they feel?
• 20:00
  like it went with, you know, John, Sarah, Jim, I also share
• 20:03
  with them the feedback. So I've had that conversation with the
• 20:06
  the candidate about, you know, things that they talked about
• 20:09
  things, they enjoyed it, maybe some like starstruck pieces that
• 20:13
  that happen, I'll share that first so that they can kind of
• 20:16
  usually it's good stuff because most often the candidates feel
• 20:19
  like, you know, it went well. But they'll resonate with things
• 20:23
  that maybe were said there, which I feel like kind of helps
• 20:26
  them either remember some parts of those interviews that that
• 20:29
  happened? And also find like a connection with that person,
• 20:32
  like, oh, yeah, that we did talk about that, or Oh, no, I did,
• 20:36
  she did share that. So I think that that part is really
• 20:39
  important to just be candid, we'll go through each candidate,
• 20:42
  and let everybody just sort of share. Sometimes people disagree
• 20:45
  on stuff, which is really interesting. But I tried to just
• 20:48
  really ask probing questions versus trying to input anything
• 20:52
  about my experience with the candidate. Because, you know,
• 20:55
  we're all human, sometimes I, you know, have favorites and
• 20:58
  everything. I don't want to involve myself in that part of
• 21:01
  the process at all. I want them to hear from each other about
• 21:04
  how it went and how it happened. It also depends on is this a
• 21:07
  panel appears? Or is this an executive leadership team versus
• 21:11
  the hiring manager. And so I try to keep the hiring manager on or
• 21:14
  record those debriefs with the client so that the hiring
• 21:17
  manager can whoever the decision maker is about the candidate, I
• 21:21
  want to make sure that they're able to listen to on how those
• 21:24
  debriefs with went with everybody else involved. But
• 21:27
  again, on the back end, I've gotten evaluation forms from
• 21:30
  everybody in real time, right after an interview, that then I
• 21:33
  typically will either share or talk with the hiring manager,
• 21:36
  you know, about how those how those why, and, you know,
• 21:39
  usually it just kind of ends with a, you know, thank you, I
• 21:43
  really, really appreciate your time, because oftentimes, if it
• 21:46
  isn't the hiring manager, you know, they took time out of
• 21:49
  their day to make sure that these interviews happen, which I
• 21:52
  think is really important to value their time as well. And
• 21:55
  again, I know upfront, who is making the decisions, and so if
• 21:59
  it's a group of folks that did the interview process that are
• 22:02
  just there to provide conflict, a balance, thank you, and we
• 22:05
  didn't move on. And if it is the hiring manager, you know,
• 22:08
  there's been our goal is to always have two good candidates
• 22:11
  at the very end. And so oftentimes, it's a lot of
• 22:14
  probing and what were the things that were the real strengths,
• 22:17
  what are the things you know, that that maybe you feel like
• 22:21
  long term could be an issue or those kinds of things? So So
• 22:24
  really, it's all about just being really intentional about
• 22:27
  the questions, I'm asking them so that they can come to a
• 22:30
  conclusion for themselves on whether a candidate is.
• 22:33
  Stephanie Maas: Candidly, listening to you talk, two huge
• 22:35
  takeaways. Number one, your candidates have got to feel like
• 22:39
  you are a huge ally and advocate for them. Again, to our point
• 22:43
  earlier, most folks interviewing is not what they do for a
• 22:47
  living. So getting into a situation where you're really
• 22:50
  preparing them. And I love what you said about the authenticity,
• 22:54
  you're not preparing them to be a quote unquote, good
• 22:58
  interviewer, but rather preparing them to put their best
• 23:01
  foot forward to maximize the time that they spend with folks
• 23:05
  knowing that they're covering, you know, thoughts, questions,
• 23:09
  concerns, and an hour. Yeah, anytime you have to have a
• 23:12
  meaningful conversation, a prep would be super helpful. That's
• 23:16
  incredible. And then, on the client side, the attention to
• 23:20
  detail that you provide, has got to give them tremendous
• 23:24
  confidence when it's time for them to make a decision.
• 23:27
  Heather Campbell: Thank you a search ago that I had this year,
• 23:30
  I've had the candidate that was the number two seed that didn't
• 23:34
  get the job, right, Greg, my boss an email telling him just
• 23:38
  how important that process of the interview like the prep
• 23:41
  debrief with her was a professional that how much it
• 23:44
  supported her. It was really, really enjoyable to read,
• 23:48
  because it was the person that didn't get the job that felt the
• 23:52
  like need to share.
• 23:53
  Stephanie Maas: Man, what a tribute to you. Okay, anything
• 23:55
  else that we haven't talked about that you want to make sure
• 23:58
  it gets on here?
• 23:59
  Heather Campbell: I haven't worked for other search firms. I
• 24:01
  don't know what this process is for other groups. But I think I
• 24:05
  believe firmly that thinking ahead does this the best. I
• 24:08
  think that thinking ahead, really owns this part of the
• 24:11
  process values, it takes it very seriously. It isn't just
• 24:14
  something that's like Oak Park, we got to make sure this happens
• 24:17
  for myself, and I know many others, whether it's a nonprofit
• 24:20
  team, or I'm assuming, you know, other groups. There's a lot of
• 24:24
  care that goes into this because it is what makes our ratios so,
• 24:27
  so tight. And it's what makes us be able to say that, you know,
• 24:31
  we get we get candidates in seats, even though yes, we're
• 24:34
  finding the great talent. I feel like we're also stewarding a
• 24:37
  part of the process that just maybe not doesn't get as much attention.
• 24:42
  Stephanie Maas: I think it's a huge advantage for working with
• 24:44
  a boutique firm versus and again, everybody has the right
• 24:47
  to earn a living however they choose and different models fit
• 24:50
  different people but thinking ahead being a boutique firm
• 24:54
  versus a resume broker or volume shop. This is an area that we
• 24:59
  really have an opportunity to make a significant impact, even
• 25:03
  to your point on the folks who don't get the job. Yeah. Thank
• 25:06
  you so much for your willingness to share this with our
• 25:09
  listeners. I'm going to encourage if anybody has any
• 25:12
  additional thoughts or questions or wants to see some of the
• 25:14
  documentation that Heather sends out, I know she's incredibly
• 25:18
  approachable. You can find her on LinkedIn reach out, you can
• 25:21
  find her through our website thinking ahead.com Thank the
• 25:23
  listeners for being with us. Thank you, Heather.
• 25:26
  Heather Campbell: Thank you for having me.