Latest / This is Not Art Therapy (The Podcast) / Episode 4: Meaning Making

Transcript

Episode 4: Meaning Making · This is Not Art Therapy (The Podcast)

0:06
Welcome back. We have successively recovered
0:10
from last week's train wreck of an episode. Yeah.
0:15
I love that we're going to keep it in. That way,
0:18
the bar is set this low. I don't think we can
0:20
go lower, but if you stick around, you might
0:23
find out. Yeah. I will introduce my good friend,
0:26
John, over here. John Goodyear, artist. Guilty
0:30
until proven innocent. Let's introduce my friend
0:34
Linnea, who is a art therapist and, you know,
0:39
just a general artist as long as we know him.
0:41
Yeah. Let's start it up at four. Yeah, episode
0:44
four. Cuatro. Cuatro, yeah. Yeah. This episode
0:50
is about meaning. We have made some art about
0:54
this already and we're going to talk about it.
0:56
And this is our first episode doing it like this
0:59
instead of the other way we were doing it. But
1:02
I feel like this will be better. So we have some
1:05
art about meaning that we're going to talk about.
1:08
And John has a cool little comic type thing to
1:12
share, show off. Yeah. So. With this one, it's
1:17
the timeline. What was the case that I did? Oh,
1:21
I can go over the directives, actually. Maybe
1:22
that's a good idea. Okay. The first one is a
1:26
meaning alter. So collect things, bits, special
1:29
objects that represent what is valuable or meaningful
1:31
to you. The second one is the... lifeline map
1:36
so create a visual timeline with symbols drawings
1:39
or colors representing meaningful moments whether
1:41
they're big or small and the third one is a web
1:45
of meaning so reflect on people places or experiences
1:48
that anchor them and use whatever materials to
1:51
visualize these connections um and john you said
1:54
you did the life map uh yeah i did the life map
1:57
and my girlfriend also anita she did the the
2:00
altar so we did two so i'll go through both of
2:03
them uh so With Anita's life alter, it was a
2:09
picture of her grandmother and she's from Honduras.
2:13
So the translation basically goes, correct me
2:17
today so that I don't make you suffer tomorrow.
2:21
It sounds really grim and anonymous, but apparently
2:23
it's really nice. And I kind of think of it as
2:26
nice because it's a good way to keep like a good
2:28
partner. I found was what she was saying because
2:30
it's basically, yeah. Like you guys can work
2:34
together. You can both work on each other. And
2:36
that's what relationships take. They take growth.
2:40
And for my own, it was basically the timeline
2:46
is what I decided to kind of go with. And it
2:49
was just a short period of my life, about five
2:52
years. So for me, it was when my dad was in the
2:56
Air Force. So we moved every four years. And
2:59
I basically... I just started from 1989. And
3:04
that's basically when I left Canada and went
3:09
to the UK. And the picture is just kind of like
3:12
me as a younger kid. I don't really know if it
3:15
looks exactly like me. But yeah, it's basically
3:19
me holding a suitcase, getting ready and holding
3:22
a rabbit. And yeah, because I used to have a
3:26
toy rabbit that I played with all the time. So
3:28
there's, you know, some captions and stuff that
3:31
go with it. Sorry. What's going on with your
3:35
hat there? Is that a tam or whatever they're
3:37
called? Yeah, like just trying to fit in. Yeah.
3:41
Yeah, like a total dork, right? Like you're like,
3:44
this is going to be great. This is what the locals
3:46
wear. Every local wears this. I'm going to fit
3:50
in awesome. So, yeah, I basically I knew Austin
3:55
Powers. That was that was my only reference to
3:57
the UK. And then we went and moved there. They
4:00
must. Yeah. Yeah. They love the culturally sensitive
4:04
kid who's. Yeah. All over the place. Like, yeah.
4:10
The next the next one was basically. So it jumps
4:13
cuts to around when I was living in the UK. I
4:16
didn't really fit in super well. It's biracial.
4:20
And also, I guess, what would you call that?
4:24
Two different religions. You grew up in a multi
4:27
-faith home. So back in the UK, it was very straight
4:31
-laced. You were one thing or the other. If you
4:33
were kind of a mix, it didn't really work out
4:36
in the early 2000s. So that's kind of where I
4:39
learned to do a little bit of fighting. And I
4:42
don't like it. I look like a giraffe. I drew
4:44
a picture of him trying to do a fighting. pose
4:48
but I'm new to it so I just feel like I look
4:50
like a giraffe in this picture oh yeah nailed
4:53
it you you got the main points of like this you're
4:57
in fighting stance your legs are ready to move
5:00
agile yeah okay thank you thanks yeah yeah it's
5:05
weird to kind of just kind of get into like drawing
5:08
that because you're like I want it to go so well
5:10
like or not so not like I had a certain vision
5:13
in my mind and then his elbow so crooked and
5:16
like broken but i think it's important to show
5:18
that because yeah yeah mistakes they're totally
5:22
meant to be made um yeah uh it kind of cuts forward
5:27
to uh when i was living in scotland and uh yeah
5:31
I was diagnosed with dyslexia. And then I also
5:34
got this weird disease that happened to me when
5:36
I was younger. It's called Guillain -Barre. It's
5:38
basically like winning the lottery twice. I got
5:41
it as a kid. So lucky me. And it paralyzed me.
5:45
So the next one would be like another self -portrait.
5:50
But it's me in a wheelchair trying to write in
5:53
school. And there's like another caption with
5:55
that. And yeah. definitely a tough time but it
6:00
taught me a lot of like mental fortitude uh so
6:04
yeah there's just some comments on that and then
6:07
uh cut to 2004 uh and there's like sort of a
6:11
skinny kid looking a little shaken and just real
6:15
blank and uh i'm sitting in like an airplane
6:18
chair and i'm like coming back to canada and
6:21
yeah it was it's really funny because whenever
6:24
i'd meet people when i came out of the uk they
6:26
would always say this they'd be like oh you lived
6:28
in the uk that must be so cool you must have
6:31
loved it and i was like i always felt weird for
6:33
being like i didn't love it i didn't like it
6:37
at all and uh yeah so but like for people who
6:41
hadn't been there they were like oh it's just
6:43
gotta be so awesome because they probably just
6:45
all wear kilts and wear the big funny hats and
6:48
i'm like yep yep it's just like that and then
6:51
just kind of kept it to myself Yeah, so that
6:54
was my timeline piece. It seems like the underlying
6:58
theme of all of this is suffering. Wow. I'm forgetting
7:03
that, right? Or like those character holding
7:05
moments. Yeah, no, I never would say it like
7:10
that. But yeah, suffering is probably the thing.
7:12
I don't use the word suffering, actually. Well,
7:15
we don't have to. Because as I was reflecting
7:19
on the theme for my own art in this, suffering
7:23
came up a lot of like how we derive meaning out
7:27
of suffering, whether we need to, whether it's
7:29
like this instinct that we have of like, oh,
7:31
something bad happens. Let's make something good
7:34
out of this, whether that's my own sort of optimistic
7:36
bias that comes out. Yeah. You know what? I think
7:40
there's another piece that probably just needs
7:42
to come out of us. I hate to be that broken record,
7:46
but. Back when I wrestled in high school, after
7:49
all of that, I learned to take my suffering and
7:53
just sort of turn it around. And I just internalized
7:56
suffering. Because a lot of people quit wrestling
7:59
super fast and early because it's a really physically
8:01
demanding sport. And it's very, very, really
8:04
hard. Everybody says about their own sports that
8:06
theirs is the hardest. But sometimes I really
8:08
believe that wrestling is like truly one of the
8:11
hardest sports you can do. You got to be. flexible
8:14
strong and good cardio you have to think like
8:17
a chess match and uh yeah i just i would internalize
8:20
that suffering or hard work because a lot of
8:23
people like as soon as they started working hard
8:25
they were like oh i've never worked this hard
8:27
in my life and uh they would just kind of quit
8:30
out i turned that into such a positive because
8:32
i was like you'd win things and uh people would
8:35
say good job so yeah Yeah. It turned into fuel
8:38
for you. It can stop people or it can encourage
8:41
and fuel us. Yeah. I think you had a, such a
8:44
good quote the other day. Like we were just in
8:46
like our text. Oh, I don't remember it. Oh, well
8:50
it was, it was the book you were reading. Oh
8:53
yeah. I'm still reading it. In fact, I was reading
8:55
right before we were recording. Yeah. Yeah. I
8:58
can't remember what it was, but I'll go back
9:00
to it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I, it
9:03
hit me good though. It was, you were saying that
9:05
people who go through. So if you're going through
9:08
something traumatic and you can't do anything,
9:10
that affects people so much worse than a traumatic
9:13
event. And then they just kind of rip through
9:15
it. Like, yeah. And then you're just like, oh,
9:19
that's kind of like where the heroes are made.
9:22
People were like, oh, that wasn't scary for me.
9:24
Like it was for a bit, but then I just started
9:26
doing the thing and I got to control the situation.
9:28
And then the narrative changes a little bit more
9:30
for you. Whereas if you do something traumatic
9:33
happens and you can't do anything for you. That
9:36
just is going to stick with you. Yeah, it's that
9:38
stuckness. The book I'm reading is called Waking
9:41
the Tiger, and it talks about how wild animals
9:44
will engage in these like fight or flight or
9:47
freeze moments. And, you know, they're all protective
9:51
instincts. And as I've noticed talking with you,
9:55
you have such a fight mentality, which I find
9:58
very admirable because I don't always fight my
10:00
problems. Sometimes I get a little freezy. Sometimes
10:02
I get a little avoidant -y, you know. That's
10:06
okay. I'm frozen too. I'm frozen too. Yeah, you
10:09
just learn your way out of these situations.
10:13
I totally remember freezing. Like living in the
10:16
UK, I remember I was getting picked on by a kid
10:19
and he picked me up by the shoulders. like put
10:22
me against the wall like like a cartoon character
10:25
and i was like i was like oh my god this guy
10:27
because he was a few grades older than me was
10:29
like i was like he's so strong like he just put
10:31
me up against the wall like nothing and uh he
10:35
scared me so hard i i genuinely i just completely
10:38
froze and uh yeah i i definitely remember that
10:42
being pretty traumatic you know when when you
10:45
can't do a thing about it whereas it's like you
10:48
know actually there's backstory i've caught his
10:50
brother and i beat up his little brother and
10:52
that was a moment where his brother was like
10:55
yeah my brother kicked your ass i was like okay
10:57
cool and then i was like let's do this and we
10:59
started up and i have a totally different remembering
11:02
with him like i'm like yeah no i i was like the
11:04
hero there i could beat up a guy who's going
11:06
after me versus the other way around just was
11:09
so much worse some very active conflict conflict
11:14
resolution Way too active now. Kids, don't fight
11:18
in school. Don't do it. Use your words. Try that,
11:23
yeah. Yeah, I get that. Also, what you were talking
11:27
about, you were talking about drawing for your
11:31
art making. I also did a little bit of drawing.
11:34
I wasn't going to do the homework, but I was.
11:37
Yesterday when I was thinking about this, it
11:39
was just such a sunny day. I didn't want to stay
11:43
inside to make art. And the idea I originally
11:46
had of meaning is like, I was thinking like,
11:49
what do I find meaningful in life? And it kept
11:52
on coming up the same things I made for the rest
11:54
relaxation map. All the things in life that I
11:58
find meaningful can be found on this map. And
12:01
I thought it was like, well, don't need to make
12:03
another piece of art. But what I did add and
12:06
had some trouble making these is I drew little
12:09
hands of myself. These are... Oh, sweet. This
12:13
is what they look like, too. I have my little
12:16
Linnea flower tattoo on it. It's hard to show
12:18
both of them at the same time. But I have the
12:21
hands holding the map. And that's sort of the
12:24
additional piece of meaning in that I found meaningfulness
12:28
while I was just chilling reading on the balcony
12:32
yesterday in the sun. And it was so lovely. And
12:35
I was like, meaning is doing nothing. And I guess
12:37
maybe that's like my work avoidance. Maybe that's.
12:41
just how life is, but I was just enjoying the
12:43
sun. I'm like, this is perfect. I don't need
12:44
to do anything else. I don't need to chase something
12:46
that is outside of me. I can just chill. And
12:50
I thought that was so lovely. And also what I
12:53
liked about this as I'm holding the map, like
12:56
it just felt very empowering to me that I can
13:00
hold meaning in my hands. And I liked that. So
13:05
that's kind of where I'm at, but now it doesn't
13:07
fit in the frame. I don't know what to do with
13:08
the hands. I'm also probably going to keep working
13:11
on my rest map because there's so much that I
13:14
can add to it and it'll just develop over time.
13:17
I also have an altar. We're recording from my
13:20
studio today. Normally I'm at home, but I have
13:23
a little altar in the corner of my studio. It
13:27
just has important things in it and little art.
13:34
The camera? I want to see this. Yeah, you want
13:36
to see. So there's little rocks I've collected.
13:40
This gargoyle I actually have tattooed on me.
13:42
My dad gave me that when I was a kid. There's
13:44
also a gold one. Little potion jars I've made.
13:47
Little things that people have made and gave
13:49
me. There's a real bird nest and a fake bird
13:53
nest. A $1 bill, a Canadian $1 bill I found.
13:56
I have no idea. This picture of my grandma. I've
14:01
made a dollar bill that says ladies is pimps
14:04
too. You know, standard. Little things. And I
14:09
love having it as a way to just remind me of
14:12
why I'm doing the work that I do. Remind me of
14:14
the people who have fueled me to get me here.
14:17
Yeah. Add to it and change it around and keep
14:21
it fresh. no i i think that's such a good way
14:24
to do it i think your resting is enough yeah
14:27
if you're if you're like i'm in a place where
14:30
i'm good and everything's okay you're actually
14:34
just living in the moment which i think more
14:36
which more of us just need to do yeah it's like
14:39
less screen time more actually just being like
14:42
you're from what it sounds like you're just enjoying
14:45
the sun and getting like actual getting nourishment
14:49
from the sun and just sort of being in the moment
14:52
you probably enjoy the air all that all that
14:55
just stuff to keep you grounded you know i like
14:58
that you brought that up because that was a big
15:00
thing that i felt is like meaning is in the moment
15:03
yes um and and again the hands are holding something
15:07
so maybe it's like hold on to the moment but
15:10
also know i know that we can't hold on to things
15:12
forever so yeah yeah no i like i like that there's
15:17
the symbol symbolism and the meeting of the hands
15:19
kind of to me it's like it's like like i said
15:21
before like master of your own destiny you hold
15:24
the map you're choosing what direction to go
15:26
like that's and the fact that you just want to
15:29
keep adding to it to me is like it's super sick
15:31
yeah you know like you're like okay i it's like
15:35
you're not done there's there's still more growth
15:37
to be done i like that way of framing it And
15:41
I also thought that the more you work on something,
15:44
the more meaningful it can become, whether that's
15:46
a piece of art, whether that's a relationship.
15:49
I really like what Anita made and the conclusion
15:53
you came to about her art. Yeah. Just how and
15:57
like how meaningful connections can be. Yeah.
16:00
Oh, my God. Just having like that one friend.
16:04
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, like that one person who
16:08
you call, you're like, I am going to complain
16:11
about the same thing I've complained to you about
16:13
for the last, like, five years. And they're like,
16:16
yep, I'm here for it. Let me hear it. I swear.
16:19
Between me and my friend Daniel, we legitimately
16:22
do that probably twice a week. It'll be about
16:25
something in the army, relationships, friends,
16:28
just how life's going, the world state. You're
16:30
just like. Yeah, yeah, we can both just dump
16:34
on each other with this stuff. But the way that
16:36
we started off is, if you ever heard me and my
16:38
friend Daniel talk to each other, you would think
16:40
we were immortal enemies when you first hear
16:42
our engagements, like our opening engagement.
16:44
It's always pretty rough. And, like, I have this,
16:47
like, kind of idea and theory. Like, my friends
16:50
who make fun of me, like, the hardest, and, like,
16:53
I make fun of them. We get along so good. like
16:57
like those guys you could call at three o 'clock
17:00
in the morning be like my tire is missing from
17:02
my car they'll be like yep i got you but that's
17:05
your that's your guy or your person that one
17:07
connection of if you have just one of those you're
17:11
doing really well you know and you know i think
17:15
it's about building more of that and into a community
17:17
and like sort of settling things That's, you
17:21
know, something that, that I enjoy. Yeah. Oh,
17:24
I really liked that. That importance of community.
17:27
Yeah. We will do an episode about community.
17:29
I'm going to write that down. Cause I keep on,
17:31
I don't write that down. Yeah. And I think I'd
17:35
love to do one on community. I said this about,
17:38
I said this about the, what was it? Rejection.
17:41
And that was our worst sound. For now. For now.
17:46
So far. Perfect. Yeah. Oh, community would be
17:50
great. But yeah, today is about meaning. So yeah.
17:55
Do you think that meaning is created or do we
18:00
discover meaning? Meaning is, I'd say like, man,
18:06
some people inherently just love something. My
18:09
sister just loved rocks. Like she's really smart.
18:14
and you know she's super duper smart but she
18:16
loved rocks like she just uh she just was she
18:21
was so obsessed with them that my dad and his
18:23
friends would would collect rocks from other
18:25
places they would go and melt her so she had
18:27
a fishing box of rocks and there was nothing
18:29
that was ever going to stop her just loving inherently
18:31
loving rocks and like i've gone through with
18:35
this journey and i've gotten to see the different
18:37
types of rocks and i was like oh god yeah you're
18:40
right we just think something you put in a slingshot
18:42
or throw at like an abandoned car window you
18:45
know but like this is not like no no there's
18:47
like beauty to these things there really is like
18:50
a whole other life and meaning under the ground
18:52
that's always all about and um yeah i think that
18:56
people sometimes they're just wired for something
18:59
or sometimes you can really just be like a blank
19:02
canvas and then you something gets splattered
19:04
on you and you're like i found my way yeah you
19:06
know yeah yeah um i like that between beauty
19:12
and meaning that you acknowledge. And rocks,
19:16
I could probably talk forever about rocks. I
19:20
feel that connection. Yeah, sometimes you're
19:25
just into something so much harder than... like
19:28
anybody else and you're like oh no i'm weird
19:30
about talking about this too too much but i love
19:34
hearing people talk about their thing yeah and
19:38
the the light in their face and their eyes they
19:41
just get so excited even if it's not my thing
19:43
i've seen people get nerdy about hockey and just
19:46
their own excitement is so lovely to witness
19:50
even if i don't understand anything about hockey
19:54
Man, I can never follow the puck. I think of
19:57
like, whether it's created or discovered, I don't
20:00
know if I've ever gone into a weekend being like,
20:02
I'm going to make this weekend really meaningful.
20:05
Like, I don't think that's inherently an intention
20:07
I have. Yeah, I think it could be like, if you
20:13
did something along those lines, trying to find
20:16
meaning, like, no, that wouldn't work. yeah i
20:19
don't i don't know i just feel like that wouldn't
20:22
work if you were just like i'm going to find
20:24
the meaning of life today and you're like oh
20:27
buddy like where do we start like what book do
20:30
we open up what part of history would we even
20:33
have to get into be like what is the meaning
20:35
you know or um knowing that the art that you
20:39
made for this session was very much embedded
20:44
in some of your like character developing moments
20:47
or what i called suffering what gives your life
20:51
meaning outside of suffering you know you talked
20:54
about community yeah you know i'd probably put
20:57
that into phases um so when i when i first started
21:02
uh in the army i was you know like i was a tank
21:08
driver And all you want to do is like destroy
21:11
things. And you're like, that was at that time,
21:13
that purpose. What I thought at the time was
21:15
quote unquote cool. And then from there, I found
21:19
like a real good meaningfulness in doing flood
21:22
fighting in Quebec. Like what we saw was like
21:25
our shovels were actually making a real difference,
21:27
like putting up a couple more feet of sand. is
21:31
like the difference between saving somebody's
21:33
home that they've worked their whole lives on
21:35
or, you know, like maybe an old folks home. Like
21:39
we actually put up a pretty big wall around that
21:41
and we had, you know, I just, it was cool to
21:45
see people come together and help each other.
21:47
Like a full community of people just doing whatever
21:52
it took. And there was like a particular young
21:55
dude that I remember he was, he was putting his
21:59
arm over the wall. And is the like that he had
22:02
made around his own house. And basically when
22:06
the water would touch it, he would wake back
22:09
up and just keep adding sand until he was like
22:12
two feet, three feet up more. And then he would
22:15
just put his arm back there and just kind of
22:16
wait. And his wife, I think they had like a new
22:19
phones or whatnot, but like his wife, it was
22:21
a bad scenario. And his wife was just like whipping
22:24
up food and just like, he would just have like
22:26
a blanket, but he would just wait out there.
22:29
i think for that guy's meaning was he's like
22:31
i had built this whole thing and he's like i'm
22:34
not letting anything including mother earth or
22:37
mother nature take that from me and uh later
22:40
on in life i just was like yeah okay saving things
22:42
is just so responsive but building things for
22:45
me is so much more yeah like learning to build
22:48
things and be a part of like society which is
22:51
super big for me that's my my bet yeah my best
22:57
meaning is could be from making a t -shirt to
23:00
a house to whatever, you know, like I've just
23:02
found myself lost in that process. Yeah. And
23:06
what I love, one of the things I love about making
23:08
stuff is that you have this tangible thing that
23:11
you can look at and be like, I made that. Yeah.
23:13
Oh my God. I have a table that I just look at,
23:16
like I put in my living room and I'm just like,
23:18
and I swear I've turned into that dad. I'm like,
23:21
look, see that table. Yeah. I made that table.
23:25
I did the same thing with my picket fence in
23:29
my yard. I'm like, see that picket fence? Perfectly
23:32
straight. I made that fence. That's, for me,
23:37
my meanings. To be proud of the thing you made
23:40
is quite lovely. Yeah. I think we just learn
23:44
to be less critical of the little mistakes than
23:47
the new things that I'm making. When it's art,
23:49
like my friend Mikey said. basically it's like
23:53
yeah it's just part of the process nothing's
23:55
perfect and it tells its own story so yeah and
23:59
as we've started this podcast I've tried to dip
24:04
my toes into mediums that I haven't explored
24:07
before well not before in a while like painting
24:11
I painted the back of the map and This week I
24:14
did some drawing and I don't draw very often.
24:18
So to get back into that process, I was being
24:20
very critical and just trying to just enjoy it
24:25
and know. And again, it's I'm just a little rusty.
24:28
If I drew every day, I'd be way more comfortable
24:31
in it. Yeah. I was just accepting that I do enjoy
24:35
the process. It was fun and it didn't need to
24:37
be perfect. No, no. I think you're. I think with
24:41
all the things like AI art and everything being
24:43
absolutely perfect, like a little bit of flaw
24:47
is okay. Oh, absolutely. I'd rather see that
24:50
than a perfectly straight line. Like I think
24:53
when I first started drawing, I was like, I was
24:55
obsessed with a straight line. And then I actually
24:58
got to the point where I could make a straight
25:00
line. But then I realized a straight line doesn't
25:02
really help in a portrait or like any of my caricatures
25:05
because nothing's perfectly straight. uh you
25:08
know yeah so and if you want it to be perfectly
25:10
straight you can use a ruler exactly it's right
25:12
there so yeah I like that and oh there was something
25:17
else I was going to say but I already forgot
25:18
it um do you remember this is why I write these
25:22
things down oh one thing and it kind of goes
25:25
back to maybe two things ago we were talking
25:26
about of this yeah I love having the thing like
25:29
oh I made that of one of the perks of art therapy
25:34
is that if you choose, you can make something
25:37
and have that as a visual reminder of what you
25:40
have gone through or whatever the directive or
25:43
the purpose of one's own art therapy experience
25:47
is. So I have art that I've made with my own
25:49
art therapist on my walls, as well as just little
25:54
things that I have gotten benefit from. are just
25:59
i'm pointing over there i have this imposter
26:02
jar that i made when i first started being a
26:04
therapist because i was like i'm 20 whatever
26:08
what makes me qualified to be a therapist like
26:10
yeah i did the schooling i did all that but like
26:12
how am i able to help everyone and the feeling
26:16
of imposter syndrome was so real and debilitating
26:19
at times um so i made a jar about it and every
26:22
time something good or i had a little win in
26:25
the business i would write it on a piece of paper
26:28
and put it in a jar. So if I was ever feeling
26:30
super imposter syndrome -y, I'd get to look at
26:34
these little bits of paper and be like, oh yeah,
26:35
I can't be that bad. Yeah. Just those little
26:38
things can help give us little boosties. That's
26:42
probably why doctors put plaques on their walls.
26:44
oh yeah no for sure like i think what you're
26:47
saying there because like even a doctor is probably
26:49
like i'm not the right guy and same thing for
26:52
you could like that's probably why they have
26:54
that to be like i did that you know okay i made
26:57
that and i can totally see you being like you
26:59
should be able to be like you are the right person
27:01
for this scenario i'm like yeah because of and
27:05
you can literally just pull into this jar and
27:06
be like oh yeah this is why uh go back into the
27:10
tank a little bit further be like oh this scenario
27:12
happened and now that's good you know like it
27:15
just it just yeah i think that it would just
27:18
it's a good way to validate yourself yeah i feel
27:22
like we all have negative self -talk oh big time
27:24
and that has been such a thing to deal with in
27:28
every facet of life even with this podcast of
27:31
like being really new at something and cringy
27:34
at times and can i can i i'm just gonna tell
27:42
you i listened to our first episode and i turned
27:46
it off because i just couldn't stand my my own
27:49
voice oh yeah that's fair i got like four minutes
27:53
and i was like shut up like oh i feel you on
27:57
the imposter syndrome too yeah yeah it's weird
28:01
That was one thing. And because I had to go over
28:03
the first episode a few times before we got our
28:06
lovely editor, Emily, to take charge in that.
28:10
All praise to the all high. All hail Emily. All
28:15
hail Emily. The maker of us sounding good. Yeah.
28:21
I got over that real quick having to hear it
28:24
three times. man I gotta get back and do it then
28:27
I gotta eat my vegetables and go listen to myself
28:30
eat your vegetables doing the hard thing first
28:38
absolutely everything else it's just it's just
28:42
a cakewalk yeah oh so um one thing this like
28:47
theme of suffering keeps on coming back to me
28:50
and meaning and I don't know if they're on like
28:53
They present this duality, whether they're total
28:56
opposites. They're, of course, interwoven in
28:59
some way or another. But the metaphor that came
29:02
to mind was meaning was the rock tumbler and
29:06
suffering were the rocks. And that maybe that
29:09
wasn't the metaphor I was thinking of. Just the
29:11
idea that meaning takes the edge off of life.
29:14
There's so much bad stuff that's going to happen
29:17
in life. Like that's so inherent in the human
29:20
experience. But yeah. meaning can make life just
29:24
a little bit softer. No, I'm with you on the
29:27
suffering part. Have you ever met somebody who's
29:30
never suffered? They're insufferable. I think
29:36
I have, but I know that that's just my own brain
29:39
being like, oh my goodness, this person probably
29:41
had such an easy life. I don't think anyone's
29:45
had an easy life at this point in time. Yeah,
29:47
I feel like there's levels to it. you know i
29:51
think the more like i don't know it does it shouldn't
29:54
be this way but like i think you build things
29:56
from there like you can tell like and like experiences
29:59
from there so there's a there's an interesting
30:01
phrase and it's called the cool period and it's
30:04
yeah the cool period in history so it's usually
30:08
like people will be like oh like like there are
30:13
a million dads who are obsessed with world war
30:15
ii And all these old guys who just love history
30:19
and they're just like, man, I can't stop reading
30:21
about Vietnam. And then there's the guy who actually
30:25
was through it in that period. It wasn't that
30:28
great and I hate it at all. People are going
30:32
to be like, what an interesting time it would
30:34
have been to see all these people wearing masks
30:37
and staying away from each other and basically
30:40
just being like... stay like you have this is
30:43
your bubble like what an interesting time to
30:45
have looked at so it's the cool period is called
30:48
so it's basically the cool period basically it's
30:50
just like to look back like that's freaking amazing
30:53
but you wouldn't want that every day you know
30:55
to be able to like visit that temporarily yeah
30:59
yeah i think maybe that's why the concept of
31:03
time traveling comes up a lot in sci -fi Give
31:08
me a nugget. I love that stuff. Yeah. We think
31:12
we look back and be like, oh, it was so much
31:15
better back then. Everything sucks now. But I
31:17
think every generation has that. Oh, they must.
31:21
Yeah, they absolutely have to. I think it's like
31:24
my dad's generation and his and the ones before
31:26
that were like, oh, these guys got it so easy.
31:28
It was way rougher when I was like, I'm doing
31:31
the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Like I do the same
31:34
thing when I see like new recruits. I'm just
31:35
like. Man, I'm like, they don't make them like
31:40
they used to. It was way harder when I went through.
31:42
And I was like, man, no, it wasn't. It's just
31:46
the same thing was said to me when I was recruiting.
31:50
Yeah. Yeah. And just more, it's your own memories
31:52
you're stuck with. Yeah, exactly. I think it's
31:55
hard to compare heart. Yeah. Like talking about
31:59
this last week with pain. Yeah. Were you recording
32:01
that or was that just something we talked about?
32:04
Worst pain is the pain that's happening right
32:07
now. Yeah. Current pain. Yes, that is absolutely.
32:10
Yeah. You're like, yeah, yeah. Like I remember
32:13
getting my arm broke back in the past, but I'm
32:14
like, if I stub my toe, it's like over. yeah
32:17
like give me three minutes to just breathe hard
32:20
yeah yeah yeah a character developing moment
32:25
for sure stubbing the toe don't cry don't cry
32:29
don't cry yeah and also back to that like in
32:33
meeting individuals who haven't suffered or give
32:36
the appearance or illusion that they haven't
32:38
suffered yeah i think it's like a lack of relatability
32:41
maybe yeah no i was listening to a podcast basically
32:47
I used to really like. And then they, as they
32:50
kind of kept moving up and through the echelons
32:53
of life, they kind of became a lot less relatable.
32:56
And then some of their other friends who are
32:58
kind of in the same, same hemisphere, basically
33:02
we're all talking about these things. And I'm
33:04
like, man, that has nothing to do with my life
33:07
anymore. It used to be like, you used to be that
33:10
way, but now you're like looking at him. Yeah.
33:12
I can't relate, buddy. Like somebody crying about
33:15
a Ferrari. like different styles of priorities
33:17
it's just so not in the norm for whoever right
33:21
yeah yeah it's hard to connect with that because
33:26
there's nothing really to borrow from to be like
33:28
oh yes that the time the time I blew up my daddy's
33:34
sports cars tires it was horrible you know yesterday
33:39
someone was talking to me about Chernobyl and
33:45
ended up on a YouTube deep dive about Chernobyl
33:49
and the amount of people who ended up having
33:52
to essentially sacrifice their lives to prevent
33:56
this mega meltdown was incredible. And there,
34:00
and it was people in the army who were just like
34:02
being sent up and like, okay, go deal with toxic
34:05
waste. Try not to die. Yeah. You, you with high
34:09
school education. Now you're working with high
34:12
end chemicals that scientists read about in books,
34:15
but we'll never touch. Yeah. And you might not
34:18
know the danger of it. Zero percent. Absolutely
34:22
zero percent. Like, do you even realize what
34:25
you're doing to yourself at that age? But that's
34:28
just like the way you do it. You're like, oh,
34:30
an adult said to do this. Let's go. Sure. He's
34:33
definitely the guy. That guy doesn't know shit.
34:40
like like so many of them died either young or
34:43
not died instantly but yeah suffered seriously
34:46
but they contributed to this event that would
34:50
have otherwise like destroyed most of europe
34:53
crazy so there's these like young 20 year olds
34:56
doing these little tasks there's like thousands
34:59
of them i don't know i wasn't paying attention
35:01
but yeah meaningfulness of the task yeah Like
35:05
you might not think you're like, oh, why am I
35:07
turning this crank? I'm like, buddy, that's just
35:09
what you do. You're just turning the crank of
35:12
this power thing. So it doesn't like blow us
35:15
up. You're like, what? Okay, sure. I guess I
35:17
got to keep ripping. And some other guys like,
35:19
why do I got to shovel coal? They're like, well,
35:21
you got to, because that's how society's got
35:23
to work. Like this doesn't go like, I'm like
35:27
your whole family and everything else could be
35:29
gone. So yeah, it's all working together. Yeah.
35:32
And I think it can be hard when you're, one piece
35:35
of a giant puzzle in the meaning making of a
35:39
situation yeah whereas this new profession that
35:43
you have of carpentry like you you get to make
35:47
everything you are the sole well obviously not
35:50
someone had to like you know show me oh yeah
35:53
but like you can be like yeah I made that and
35:56
that is probably really meaningful to you oh
35:59
so so meaningful yeah yeah it's something that
36:02
like if you've made it well and right it it's
36:06
gonna be there even after you're gone so like
36:09
even if it's like a butcher's block like for
36:12
like something and you're like that could that
36:14
could stay in like your family's history forever
36:17
like my my grandfather owned a store and we still
36:20
have this amazing butcher's block in our family
36:23
still so that was like made 80 years ago the
36:27
dude who made that's passed but like in a weird
36:29
way that guy kind of lives on and helps build
36:31
with our memories that's so cool yeah and that
36:35
legacy piece of building things that last is
36:39
such a a fleeting rare thing that people get
36:42
to experience i think yeah now i know being consumable
36:46
and throw awayable and disposable and yeah no
36:50
there's like there is some things that are just
36:53
like if it's handmade and made well it's just
36:56
gonna it's gonna last forever and you're gonna
36:58
take care of it if you really think about it
37:00
yeah so it could it could be a picture frame
37:04
with your with your grandmother you know or it
37:07
could be a table so it's it's weird me and anita
37:11
both have these um i have uh i have a apron and
37:16
it's made of my grandfather's jeans oh and yeah
37:20
and then for some reason so does anita Out of
37:24
your grandpa's jeans? No, no, out of her grandmother's.
37:28
Out of her grandmother's. And I was like, dude,
37:30
that's so symbolic. I was like, what? Like, I
37:35
guess my grandpa was out there. in honduras or
37:38
something like soulmates like next lifetime see
37:41
you later i don't know i love hearing of experiences
37:43
like perennial human experiences whether it's
37:47
serendipitous whether it's just like oh the world's
37:50
ultimately a small town yeah and kind of how
37:52
art got started communities all over the world
37:56
had some form of art form but there was no internet
37:58
we weren't being like did this cave painting
38:00
hashtag painting it was none of that to keep
38:03
us connected tell other cave painters what was
38:07
cool but there's this perennial experience these
38:11
reoccurring themes and images yeah people just
38:14
share it and i think that's so cool that art
38:16
and dance and music like all of these things
38:19
happened independently yeah we were able to talk
38:23
to each other i know we all sing happy birthday
38:26
that's crazy we we we all do it like and in different
38:32
languages it's like it's the same cadence and
38:35
tone so like it's wild that like yeah we can
38:38
all just experience something together and it
38:40
means something you're like as soon as you hear
38:42
happy birthday yeah i i smell cake yeah you know
38:47
the word what look i just got hungry happy birthday
38:51
too so you know and like big time parties and
38:54
fiestas right on i love that wow um there was
38:59
one thing i was thinking of when we were thinking
39:01
of this meaning thing Was this really, it's like
39:05
quintessentially like one of those books that
39:08
most therapists read. It's by Frankel. I don't,
39:12
I think that's his last name probably. And I
39:15
think the book is called Man's Search for Meeting.
39:18
It's probably right over there. So if I walk
39:19
over to the bookcase, I can grab it and fact
39:23
check myself without having to Google something.
39:26
But in this book, so this guy was a doctor in
39:29
the Holocaust and he was imprisoned. This is
39:33
not the book that I thought. Oh, maybe I don't
39:35
have it. Anyways, I'll look it up later. But
39:37
essentially, he found that the people who are
39:39
more likely to survive in the Holocaust were
39:42
the individuals who had meaning in their life,
39:44
like something to live for. And he saw people
39:47
die quicker who just didn't have anything to
39:51
live for. That's crazy. That's the same thing
39:53
with people who are. so people who are are in
39:57
water so sailors when they they found the dudes
40:00
with the least casualties were the guys with
40:02
families versus the single guys like every time
40:06
like they were like gotta get back to my kids
40:08
and wife they're like that was a strong purpose
40:11
of community and just like something that meant
40:13
something to them because they so the the guys
40:17
who keep on kicking and have that thing in their
40:19
life you know that's that's what you keep going
40:22
for yeah and i this reminds me of what anita
40:27
did in her art that's saying it's essentially
40:30
like tend take care for the connections in your
40:34
life because that's where you find the most meaning
40:37
from absolutely yeah and i'm curious if there's
40:42
there's probably universe i've never really thought
40:44
of like how we keep friendships and i'm sure
40:48
there's some sort of universal pattern to it
40:50
but everyone's going to have their own flavor
40:52
of yeah kind of how you were talking about you
40:55
and your friend daniel about you guys are just
40:58
super cool to one another but in a very loving
41:01
way yeah it's just like yeah if you saw if you
41:05
if i saw him and we can't we were in a party
41:08
and he was wearing a suit i'd be like nice tie
41:10
like you know whereas like i feel like with some
41:12
people if they heard that they'd be like how
41:14
dare you say that about my like it's like i'm
41:17
like nice shoes you know like we just yeah we
41:20
just kind of just to get under each other's skin
41:22
and just be like all right hey I'm in the room.
41:25
Pay attention to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's
41:28
just what it's juvenile and fun. Yeah. It's playful.
41:31
Yeah. The people closest to us often know how
41:34
to poke our buttons. You ever turn into a kid
41:39
when you're hanging out with your mom? The worst.
41:42
I'm a grown ass man. And I'm like, I'm like,
41:44
I had to deal with a lot. me have to get through
41:47
my surgery on my ankle and just like dealing
41:50
with my mom and i'm like man i feel like we're
41:52
right back into this like mother son very young
41:55
vibe and i'm like i'm like my mom's five feet
41:59
tall i'm six foot two i'm like stop bossing me
42:02
around way bigger than me and she's like gotta
42:06
get this gotta get up and you know she's sweet
42:09
she's so sweet but it's really funny like she's
42:13
definitely we all used to call it nance's world
42:16
growing up because we were just living on it
42:18
yeah we were just living on it yeah super funny
42:22
video of you on instagram where you're folding
42:26
a pan i don't even know what to call it and your
42:29
mom's just kind of puttering away in the background
42:30
did you tell her yeah what was the story oh no
42:34
yeah no she um yeah she she had no idea she was
42:38
filming she was just telling me about like life
42:40
lessons and she's just kind of going on about
42:42
like I think she was putting something away,
42:45
like some Tupperware. She's like, this is the
42:46
best spot. I should be writing books about how
42:48
to put away Tupperware. And I'm like, and I just
42:52
was like, I'm so bored. And my mind, I just was
42:55
like, I'm going to take this and I'm going to
42:57
see if I can like squeeze this frying pan into
43:00
my chest and like bend it. And just because I
43:03
just wanted to eat. And so I just like picked
43:05
it up and just folded it and pulled it into my
43:07
chest and I folded it in half and she... She
43:10
was just like, what's going on? Get the camera,
43:12
get the camera. And she's just, yeah, she's all
43:16
over the place. And she's like, oh, I look like
43:18
a mess. And then she like runs out and I was
43:20
just like, hey, you look the same. You look always
43:22
the same. She looked, you look great. You're
43:23
doing fine. You know, you're in your sixties.
43:26
You're like, you know, she's like, I'm in my
43:28
pajamas. I was like, no one could tell. Yeah.
43:31
No one cares anymore, I think. No, no. We started
43:34
doing business meetings with like suits and then
43:37
dudes just sitting in boxer shorts. It's the
43:40
best trend ever, you know? So just be relaxed
43:43
and be yourself. One thing I really took from
43:46
the pandemic was how casual my clothing choices
43:49
got. And they've stuck. Like I'm still very casual
43:55
at work, which I love. No, I just remember. So
44:00
you used to dress like Spinelli. when we first
44:04
met from it was there was this yeah it was a
44:07
state it was a statement like i remember you
44:10
had a sheriff badge in your toque in the desert
44:12
i was like this is a statement piece if i've
44:15
ever seen one i got the sheriff badge in the
44:18
desert i had to yeah i know it was just amazing
44:21
it was like you had such you i like you compliment
44:25
my style i actually compliment her stylist and
44:27
i was like that's mad confidence and commitment
44:30
because she was wearing a toque in the in the
44:34
desert and i was just like i was like this is
44:36
the hottest i got a sombrero it was freezing
44:38
in the morning though it would be like two degrees
44:41
in the morning oh yeah deserts are cold yeah
44:45
it was you don't know that yeah yeah desert yeah
44:47
if you don't if you didn't know the deserts are
44:49
cold deserts are really cold at night guys uh
44:52
so if you want to do some cool desert camping
44:55
or something like that ever in the future make
44:57
sure you have something in between you and the
44:59
ground and multiple layers yeah that's my that's
45:03
my dad's section done about candy yeah um after
45:08
i left the parachute place i went to santa fe
45:11
and not germany like i had originally told you
45:16
told john and it was my first encounter with
45:20
the desert being cold because i had gone in december
45:23
and it was colder than it was back in ottawa
45:27
and they got a quote -unquote massive snowstorm
45:30
that was a few inches of snow in new mexico that's
45:34
probably a lot of snow and i think it was like
45:35
minus 16 there it was technically colder there
45:38
and then it's like oh it's a dry cold and unless
45:41
you know what that is it's it mean it's meaningless
45:44
in ottawa it's wet cold when it's cold yeah and
45:49
my luggage got lost so i basically for a week
45:53
i had bare minimum clothing i'm like this was
45:55
not very well planned but yeah it gets cold and
45:58
snowy in the desert yeah it's and there's not
46:01
much there's yeah you have open tundra it's the
46:04
worst you have wind chill oh yeah yeah yeah yeah
46:08
that's the worst i was also in a city there santa
46:11
fe i guess is a city it's a really small city
46:13
that they don't they're not used to snow so when
46:16
there is a little bit of snow everyone freaks
46:18
out oh yeah they definitely would like yeah like
46:23
texas totally uh they completely they completely
46:27
stopped like i think it was like one or two inches
46:29
hit them yeah because yeah it's just different
46:32
different world right yeah i noticed that in
46:35
vancouver too when i was living in vancouver
46:36
they're not and i'm sure they're getting better
46:38
at snow because they've gotten some pretty snowy
46:40
winters yeah oh yeah my sister's a maritimer
46:43
and she's just like uh now like she's been a
46:47
maritimer and like we've traveled a lot we can't
46:49
just classify ourselves as one thing we've just
46:51
like way too many spots but yeah she's definitely
46:54
adapted to the to the west coast lifestyle and
46:56
they have like one inch and she's like yeah i
46:58
can't drive no way not happening you know like
47:02
yeah fascinating yeah yeah i guess we adjust
47:06
to suit the environment around us absolutely
47:09
right on um were there any other questions that
47:12
we wanted to cover that we listed that oh can
47:15
i ask one more there's this oh yeah let's go
47:16
i i wrote it and then put a line around it so
47:20
it it's probably important how has connected
47:23
with art changed your life in a meaningful way
47:26
i feel like i emphasize that it has to be meaningful
47:29
but if it's not meaningful yeah yeah no i mean
47:33
connecting with art has become for me it's it's
47:36
a cool creative outlet uh it's a way to sort
47:39
of ground myself and uh i think that it's just
47:43
yeah i can't imagine not doing it anymore you
47:45
know it's it's a great outlet and uh i i like
47:49
watching like progression so yeah yeah i hope
47:53
that was meaningful enough yeah and it kind of
47:56
goes back to that other thing we talked about
47:57
of community and connection like you bring up
48:00
Mikey a lot in that his importance as a friend,
48:04
but also as this creative mentor for you. Yeah,
48:07
I think so. Yeah. It's something that you get
48:11
surprisingly close with, with people. When you're,
48:15
when you're either building something or drawing
48:17
something or doing something, just get right
48:19
into it. You know, it's a different space. And
48:22
I think there is this like comfort in being part
48:25
of the artist community, whatever that means
48:28
to you. yeah I think it's it's nice to like kind
48:32
of just be vulnerable and be like oh I want to
48:34
grow in this direction or like oh I've seen this
48:38
like how are you doing that that's super sick
48:40
yeah yeah to be inspired by the things that you
48:44
see I know like my next endeavor that I really
48:47
want to make And I don't know like how I'm going
48:50
to get into this, but I want to make a surfboard.
48:52
Okay. I don't even know how surfboards are made.
48:54
So it's foam and styrofoam. And then I think
48:57
there's some sort of like textile thing that
48:59
I kind of figured out, but yeah, it's like foam
49:01
and plastic and shaping. So yeah. Have you looked
49:04
into like places where you can go and make your
49:07
own? I don't think there's a lot of them. Okay.
49:10
Man, that's a niche for everything though. Right.
49:13
I know. It's so sick. You can just learn how
49:15
to do other things. Just YouTube is the best.
49:17
yeah so keep learning things on youtube kids
49:20
yeah yeah or dear listener i just mom emily mom
49:27
and emily yeah yeah you have to listen to us
49:31
yeah yeah right on plus we have a instagram account
49:35
now oh we do oh yeah yeah yeah who's what's our
49:40
what's our account's name it's called tina t
49:43
the pod i think Tina T the pod okay the pod is
49:49
our is the acronym of our podcast and I think
49:54
it's the pod I made it this morning Tina T the
49:58
pod perfect yeah we have no posts as of yet but
50:02
it's on my list of things to do go follow us
50:05
Emily the two of us are gonna know if you didn't
50:10
follow us And we have a plan to bring in someone
50:16
to be interviewed who's agreed to be interviewed.
50:20
So we just have to find a time that works for
50:22
all of us. And anyone who has had to schedule
50:24
a meeting with three people can understand how
50:27
tedious it can be. I'm so excited for our first
50:31
guest. We're not going to spill the tea. No,
50:34
no spilling of the tea. We're keeping it Tina
50:37
tea, okay? Keeping it Tina tea. Spill it. yeah
50:42
yeah and I won't talk about the theme that the
50:45
because I'm assuming our next pod will not be
50:49
that interview so I think the next theme is going
50:52
to be creativity we also talked about doing community
50:55
do you want to do community or creativity first
50:57
creativity and how it gets you into a community
51:00
yeah they're gonna be very intersected yeah I
51:04
think so yeah cool so we'll do creativity which
51:07
is The one I am thinking of. Also, when we first
51:11
started this, I was like, I need to make 10 outlines
51:14
to make sure we have enough quote unquote content.
51:17
And we have not even dipped into the second of
51:20
the premades because we've just been getting
51:23
ideas from having these conversations. I think,
51:27
yeah, I think it's been, I don't know. It's been
51:29
super organic and I liked it a lot. If we're
51:32
just talking about. creativity and just pure
51:35
creativity go watch the movie mad god i'm not
51:38
going to spoil it for you but it's a still frame
51:40
artist who just refused to uh give up on himself
51:44
he he did 30 years of work by himself in his
51:47
garage to make this it was like yeah no studios
51:51
backed it but uh yeah mad god it's just trippy
51:55
as all heck and i can't recommend it enough emily
51:59
oh Emily studied film I think her master's is
52:03
in film oh I should know this I'm sorry cool
52:07
I know you're hearing me butcher your experience
52:10
um so yeah that maybe she knows of it already
52:15
but I know of it because you sent me that thing
52:17
the other day oh yeah yeah I went and looked
52:20
it up it's it's so good no spoilers cool so yeah
52:24
some homework to either do the art things to
52:28
watch the movie. I'm excited about creativity.
52:30
I'm sure I have a lot of thoughts about it, but
52:33
not right now. Okay, so this is a good way to
52:38
say goodbye and forehead kisses to all of y 'all.
52:42
You can't just kiss people willy -nilly, dude.
52:46
Forehead kisses for all. All our Tina T listeners.
52:52
Metaphorical. Forehead kisses. Forehead kisses.
52:54
All right. There you go. Goodbye, everyone. Thanks
52:57
for listening. See you next time. Bye. Bye.